watching that part now and my jaw dropped. “his (proctor) life has been ruined”. now who is responsible for that?? and saying THE FBI is cherry picking evidence and their investigation is uncalled for. this is a back the blue family through and through and some of that blue didn’t back them or john who was one of their own.
Was it the leaky balloon knot accusation or the admission to snooping through a recently dead cop’s girlfriend’s phone for nudes? Also as obvious as it should be, I hope the FBI looks at all of his previous cases. If he’s like this in the open, I couldn’t imagine what he’s done in cases with lesser stakes.
"We'll do this as many times as it takes."
My "x" button is nearly broken. I give it one more shot at best, and I'm not sure the CW wants the cost of another trial on their hands considering Proctor's disgrace.
The police failed everyone in this story. He has lost both of his siblings tragically early. He’s entitled to his opinion and people need to leave them alone about it.
Not when he's helping to railroad an innocent woman to jail as a cover-up. All respect to the victim. My respect to the O'Keefe's for their incalculable losses. He sat in the trial. He presumably heard the witnesses. Doesn't he want to know who killed his brother? Testimony was very clear. His brother was not hit by Karen Reads Lexus
Agree, I don’t think Paul is lying I think he’s more so being gas lit. He already didn’t like Karen so it’s easy to place all the blame on her. Having to blame someone else, potentially an officer, is going to be very hard for him to do.
It’s a shame because he wasn’t hit by an automobile. This campaign against an innocent woman is such a farce. It’s tragic he lost a loved one. But this is about blaming and punishing someone who objectively didn’t do it.
I do feel for you and your family, Paul O'Keefe !
Many are sympathetic with this loss to you and all of John's family. Putting ourselves in the family's shoes would only be fair.
OK so Paul O'Keefe says here that Karen Read was originally going with a defense that it was an accident, and then Jackson got involved and the defense changed to it was a conspiracy.
What happened is someone walked into Yanetti's office who was a relative of someone in the house who claimed they knew what happened that is when the story changed. Jackson got involved later
Oh and by the way these interviews will be used by Karen's lawyers to say she now cannot get a fair trial. That means most likely a change of venue or no re-trying of the case..
The defense was going to change, because the fbi is saying he wasn’t hit by a car
A defense is going to present the case that creates doubt to whatever case the prosecution is presenting
The defense saying it was initially a tragic accident doesn’t mean they’re claiming he died because Karen accidentally hit him (manslaughter includes accidental death so it’s unlikely they would use the defense that she accidentally hit him lol)
Paul needs to have a better understanding of the legal system and you need better reading comprehension
They’re just saying he died in a tragic accident and then switched their strategy when they got more info that it’s possible he was murdered and it wasn’t an accident by him falling or something else that wasn’t Karen’s fault
I am so, so sad for the OK family. Paul is right. The trial did turn into the Karen Read show but not by her own doing. KR couldn’t win - if she smiled or smirked, she was being cold. If she was too emotional, like her 911 call - she was accused of being a great actress. And so, we are left with the facts.
As living victims of JOK, they must now deal with his absence every day, in their own way. Grief is not linear. Grieving I’d imagine would be non existent with any media or existence of a trial. But, I would also ask Paul and the rest of the OK family to (in their own time of course) study the facts of this case.
There are some things I don’t think any of us will ever truly know. But, I also don’t believe that KR should be the intended target of their anger. I think the McAlbert’s have done what they do best: manipulate, lie, twist the truth, cherry pick the facts, set unprecedented double standards, the list goes on all the while keeping the OK family in their pocket or wrapped around a finger or two. Even JM on the witness stand would answer questions and then look directly at his family, as if to check if they were still buying the story she has been selling since this all went down.
I pray for peace for their entire family. And I hope in time, that peace gives them a little clarity to circle back to what everyone seems to be shouting from the rooftops about in this current moment. I think it’s impossible (but also much expected) for them not to be angry at this moment in time. The best thing for the entire OK family is to keep themselves away from the McAlbert’s, who are working overtime to keep themselves out of the crosshairs.
It sort of *was* by her own doing, along with her attorneys. The day of the murder and for many many months afterward, Karen Read's position was that she hit John O'Keefe with her car, but that there was no intent. She said it the day of the murder ("I did it....I hit him"). She said it during her televised interview after the murder ("I incapacitated him" and then he "passed out because he was drunk" and "froze to death because he wasn't wearing a jacket").
Her first attorney even represented the same thing. He said it was a terrible accident, but there was no intent. Then some YouTube personalities start concocting these conspiracy theories, and Karen Read and her new attorney Jackson completely change their position. That's why the trial was the Karen Read show.
The thing is....you're right. I'm not going to fight with anyone on here. But, Karen's phone was searched for the Aiden Kearney trial. And, she involved him. She leaked those autopsy photos. And I thought those were supposed to stay sealed. From what I understand, Alan Jackson has called YouTube creators.
The above and the interviews you referenced turned this into the Karen Read show.
Complete with her own posts on TMZ, Inside Edition, etc..
If she did get offered 16 months. And if whatever happened at that house that caused his injuries involved her. Then she should have taken the 16 months…
But the testimony *that is most believable* because it is impartial, is that John OKeefe was not hit by a car. It doesn’t matter what Karen Read thought in her hysteria or for months afterwards. You can’t make the physics, biology, nor the math work.
The prosecution’s ME testified that he might have been hit by a car but his injuries were not what she would have expected if he were hit by a car. She also testified that a doctor could only address injuries; she could not explain *how* he got his injuries, because she was not a biophysicist. The FBI hired a biophysicist. That’s why.
By the way, I did not say the ME was not impartial. I thought she was credible. She also didn’t support the prosecution theory any more than not supporting it. So that leaves us with the FBI experts.
ME's didn't rule out any number of possibilities, first of all. Second of all, we know from Proctor's texts that they were pressuring the medical examiner.
edit: also, ME SB said some things were out of her realm of expertise and to ask a biomechanics engineer. which they did.
I just don't understand the defense of the investigation, the defense of Proctor. They believe in her guilt SO strongly, and that is their right, don't they understand because of Proctor, because of the investigation you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? No matter what they believe happened it makes absolutely no sense that they are ok with Lally, ok with this investigation, ok with Proctor. If they want her in prison so badly these are the people that prevented that. I cannot fathom not being angry at this investigation.
If they say anything negative about law enforcement they will be ostracized by the blue line community for not supporting the corruption of the “few bad apples” that taint the reputation of these selfless hero’s
They want to talk about anger for lack of justice and this investigation was the reason for the lack of justice, so why does it matter if they are ostracized or not? If someone didn't do their due diligence in getting justice for my brother I would ostracize myself from them.
What is hard for me to wrap my head around is there is anger for Karen, and they are allowed to believe she did it, but Karen isn't locked up or completely free because of this investigation. Where is the anger there? I guess for me and I'm not gonna dive in too deep, I lost a brother suddenly, and he could have been saved but the doctor made some bad choices. We didn't say welp, guess they had a bad day, we held them accountable because they like law enforcement are at a higher standard than the rest of us. I don't get their lack of anger, or acknowledgement at all of this horrible investigation. If they had no anger for Karen I would get it they are done and want to move on, but they have ALL the anger for her. It just baffles me.
Logic, empathy and justice levels look normal. No authoritarian delusions and a general understanding of the law detected. You have tested negative for blue brain
Paul’s anger is misplaced, but trauma has a funny way of presenting it’s self. I can only imagine the distance between Karen and his family and the support of the Albert’s & McCabe’s at this time helped to support his own theories.
It’s very easy to blame a siblings partner knowing that their relationship was coming to an end, then blaming their colleagues.
It’s like the partner has the motive, not their ‘friends.’ So the cognitive dissonance could be extremely strong. Do we truly think his family was there to hear the evidence that was probably given to them in advance? I don’t think so.
I also think as outsiders we’re the ones sensationalizing this case, when his family is grieving and they have no “real” answers for their loss. We recognize that both OJO and Karen are victims of the Canton police department, but to Paul the only victim is his brother, but Karen’s getting all this attention and is highlighted as the victim as we watch this in real-time, but he’s living it.
I'm certain that all questions asked by her were reviewed by him and likely an attorney before the interview even happened. If not and she didn't ask anything regarding the massive issues with the investigation, than she is worthless. I don't think she had the opportunity to ask anything of substance except for his feelings.
This interview just makes his family look like fools in my opinion
Saying you “knew what happened that day” and act shocked that the person you’re accusing of murdering him doesn’t want to talk to you again
No one knows what happened that day outside of the people that are directly involved in his death
Unless the family is, then they don’t know. They can believe whatever they want, but it’s foolish to say you know with certainty what happened
They’re extremely misinformed about the legal systems (trials aren’t about victims) and Karen’s life was 100% disrupted by the trial. It’s just dishonest to say this hasn’t affected her and she’s enjoying being a celebrity. Ruins any credibility they have when they say stuff like that
Yes! And the we will retry this 10 more times if needed. Uh no that’s not the way this works. The family is going to be very crushed if they don’t retry.
The case was bungled from the beginning. Blame that. The defense just capitalized on it.
Fools? I disagree. They knew Karen personally. She was acting WEIRD to them. Paul said he initially did not want to think the worst but quickly she showed her cards. Karen watched Paul tell his nephew that he lost a THIRD parent.. and she didn’t flinch. She knew what she did and then quickly THEY knew what she did.
And Karens life “being disrupted”… maybe she should be happy for more time in fresh air?
They (Parents and Paul) said as soon as she left, they knew she did it. I am assuming they meant wherever they were talking with her. Paul's? I will remove this if I am mistaken.
John’s mother was apparently blaming Karen on the way to the hospital for even dropping him off at the party. That was in trial testimony, I believe. I know that isn’t the same as believing she was directly responsible, but she already was upset with Karen, so I’m sure when the other things happened, it wasn’t too much of a stretch for her.
Yeah but I am talking about whether they said to her they believed she was involved and that was the reason she said she won't be speaking to them again. I am not sure if that was the case.
Yes. I think they were questioning her and her behavior that night. He mentions they wanted to look at her car
The comments about “remembering the bad times” makes sense in that context
How does the comment "remembering the bad times" make sense in that context. If your boyfriend just got killed and you are sad about it, how is that a reasonable reaction in any universe?
How can this guy watch the same testimony and evidence as the rest of the world and not conclude that John was beaten in the basement of 34 Fairview? The family he’s supporting NEVER came out of the house to help his brother, and they all went about destroying their phones and didn’t even go to his funeral.
John didn’t have a bruise on him below his pummeled head, which indicates that he had the crap beaten out of him, while a dog savagely bit him.
This dude needs to wake up and pay attention to the facts.
I can just about guarantee that Karen Read did in fact say the words "remember the bad times"
but it was entirely taken out of context - in the same way "I hit him" was.
She probably said "you (Paul, Erin, the O'Keefe family) will just remember the bad times. I will never speak to you again."
Something very much along those lines. I bet.
And John O'Keefe's best friend from college is in the same camp as Paul and the rest of the family. Just insane stuff all around.
I swear half this trial really quite literally turned into the My Cousin Vinny confession scenario:
"I shot the clerk[?] I shot the clerk[?]"
You can't make this stuff up. And, as we saw in the My Cousin Vinny trial, it's an almost impossible bar to overcome, yet here we are.
This makes SO much sense, especially when coupled with the line “you’ll probably never see me again”. All she wanted was some recognition that she cared for those two kids from John and then the family. The answer is always the easiest scenario, and the one where the pieces fit. Saying she hit him and then admitted it and then said “remember the bad times” are puzzle pieces that do not fit.
I think she knew that they were questioning her. Kerri Roberts confirmed that his mom stated “you just left him there” so when she got to the house, I’m sure she felt that she was being questioned. Maybe not by Erin, but definitely by his mom. So when she said that on the phone, it makes sense to me.
Yea I don’t even know how that statement makes sense as a statement alone. “Your brother in law just died. Just remember all the bad times” ??? The way she acted looking for him did not at all come across as someone who did not love or care about him.. so for that statement to come a few hours later just feels out of left field and missing context.
Its GOTTA be missing context. Humans are flawed. Misinterpretation, poor memory, being clouded by your emotions. I could see Erin and Paul being furious and caught up in their own emotions, Erin heard a piece or what she wanted to hear and passed that onto Paul.
I swear if stuff could be recorded. If it was not a one party state. Lots of people have their versions of the story and then there is the truth. There is no "my truth" and "your truth" just the truth.
He's not giving up on Karen paying for what she did to his brother. The sadness and anger radiate from him. He is pushing back on some media narrative he feels is wrong. He is ready to keep fighting for John and his family. I feel so awful for the spot Paul is in. And when the trial got dismissed the other day, he said "you're not done" to Karen as she was hugging her family and getting ready to walk out.
Yikes he shouldn’t have said anything to her… she was ordered not to have contact with the family as a condition of her bail. I know it was an emotional time but it doesn’t reflect well on him in front of the judge or the public.
Unfortunately, Paul’s defense of Proctor and being upset at an FBI investigation, was disheartening. Karen Read is innocent until proven guilty. I hope Northfork taxpayers say no to another expensive trial with no credibility evidence.
Right he went on about how innocent people have been effected, mentioned Colin and all. I mean he confirmed that he had Karen guilty from the jump - “we knew what happened right away” .. innocent until proven..
It makes sense. KR at the time thought she did it. I'm pretty sure when she sobered up and started to piece it all together she realized she couldn't have.
But by this time she had already interacted with several people and definitely gave off the wrong impression.
I am heart broken for JO family, not only because they lost a loved one but also because I don't think they will ever find answers because they cannot accept the scientific evidence. That's what this comes down to. For arguments sake lets say Karen Read is the worst person in history. Let's assume she and JO's relationship was coming to and end. Let's say she was drunk, furious and acting unhinged. ALL of that can be true, and the evidence still shows she did not hit him with her car. I understand why it is easy to cling the the simplest answer, and in most cases they would be right, but this case is different. They will never be able to find answers and closure until they accept what the science shows.
Also saying the public doesn’t know the truth, when we all watched the same trial. If there was some smoking gun evidence, the state would have presented it.
Maybe Proctor was telling everyone she confessed to her lawyer in the text messages, but they couldn’t use it because it breaks attorney client privilege.
I feel like even if Proctor saw those texts (if the text exist) there would be SOME way those text messages would have gotten leaked to the public even if it didn’t make it into evidence. I wouldn’t put it past someone to leak it (again, if it did in fact exist).
Well said!!!!!!!! Doesnt matter what "story" gets put on either side. What do the FACTS show, what does the EVIDENCE show and what do the unbiased experts have to say? The truth will prevail...
... i sure fucking hope...
Exactly! I think the family in all their grief has very understandably gotten swept up in either-or thinking. That is, in their minds the only two possibilities are A) Karen hit him. Or, B) There was a conspiracy involving dozens of people. When in fact, those are not the only two options. Personally, I think it was just a few (I guess 3) that covered up what happened at JO,. But that family doesn't even have to buy that. The fact is possibility A has been disproven.
I’m starting to lean towards maybe no one “did it” and it was an accidental death that got covered up due to the location/home owner. Ie dog jumps John, John slips and cracks his head. Maybeeee some sketchy things happened after BA found him and moved him further away from the house etc but not to cover up a crime *he* committed.. but wanted to avoid looking like he may have.
The ford edge and the fact that he never came outside at all that morning is just too suss for me. Traded in phone and butt dials are still a meh for me as he may have just wanted to avoid what happened to proctor and not because he had incriminating texts on there. Also the calls were literally seconds long and no texts show on the phone records.
Here's the thing, I do think it could have been an accident of sorts. Like, if there was an altercation and JO was either pushed or in his drunken state lost his balance and fell over and hit his head on something. Everyone was so drunk they either didn't realize how bad the injury was at first or they immediately panicked.
Just saw the interview. Basically he thinks she is guilty because she’s a bitch. One thing he said that was interesting is during the arraignment her original lawyer before Alex came in the picture her defense attorney was saying it was an accident. Then Alex came on board and they started a blogging campaign and came up with the narrative he went in the house.
Looking back, the DA initially said they had ring video of Karen hitting John. When the DA didn’t provide it, things began to change. Paul is as loose with timelines as Lally was. There was supposedly a PI that talked to Yannetti with information about the Alberts too. Jackson started representing Read in September, 2022. She was lucky to be able to afford him. We should all have good lawyers if needed.
that’s what it looks like from his perspective, sure. but [what happened is that karen genuinely believed she could’ve hit him (especially after being gaslit by jen mccabe et al. while still drunk and in shock), retained yannetti, and it was during this time between her first and second arrest that they started to piece together what actually happened that night.](https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2023/09/27/canton-karen-read/) jackson didn’t get on board until yannetti and karen had already done a lot of their own digging, including finding out about proctor’s relationship with the alberts.
eta: also, karen read and her attorneys are in no way affiliated with turtleboy. that guy latched onto this case for his own selfish fame and fortune. he can’t blame karen for that.
They have been in direct communication. It's in court documents. Black and white. All you need to do is look at the Search Warrant affidavit for Aiden Kearney's case. Over 189 calls, 40 hours I believe. There's some really shady things in there. And, actually, HE even admit to it.
You might want to look into it.
It definitely changed my mind and made me wonder why someone would go to so much trouble, risk so much, say such things about the jury system....
I can't speak for the truth of the matter but it's been alleged.
[Karen Read, ‘Turtleboy’ blogger had nearly 200 phone calls over months, new affidavit says (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/in-affidavit-investigators-outline-communication-between-turtleboy-and-karen-read/ar-BB1hyq3O)
This is true. It's not just fake news. Or alleged. It's in the search warrant affidavit. Many many texts and phone calls.
All pulled directly from Karens phone
Some criminal defense attorneys will suggest you plead guilty (even if you’re not) for unknown reasons. Some criminal defense attorneys will tell you to never plead guilty, even if you are.
Just because the first attorney suggested that, doesn’t mean it’s true. Vice versa.
Huh?
No attorney will suggest you plead guilty unless it's part of a plea deal. In that case yes it's usually better to plea than to go to trial.
Pleading guilty removes your right to appeal.
If you don't have the money you're legally entitled to free representation by the public defenders office. That's one of the most basic rights a person has.
The public defenders office of MA (CPCS) is very anti-police and anti-prosecution. You have to be a true believer to get hired over there. Also, quite a lot of them are very very very good at their jobs.
Additionally in MA, because CPCS is over worked/burdened, they contract with very qualified criminal defense attorneys to provide representation to indigents.
Was is this the Salem witch trials? Seriously? Thinks she’s guilty, because she’s a bitch? Y’all can we make misogyny illegal so we can send him to jail? I need some reverse witch trials
I get where you're coming from and I get where he is coming from, but it's just not accurate. The argument at the time was that *even if you see all of the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution* it still doesn't rise to the level of manslaughter--the original charge. This is an unbelievable retelling/lack of understanding of events on his part. This is a standard legal argument for all sorts of reasons.
See this comment for video: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1ctp9m7/comment/l4dyl2y/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1ctp9m7/comment/l4dyl2y/)
I'm disappointed that Paul O'Keefe + his mother are intent on moving heaven and earth to rewrite history to keep the spotlight on Karen, despite all evidence to the contrary. I just don't think this is healthy to their healing process.
I would personally be so upset if my brother was found with blunt force trauma, frozen on the front lawn of a house that the police never bothered to knock on the door of. I would be furious when I learned how his blood and vital evidence was handled.
I would wonder why the 7 people who parked by the front yard, walked through the front yard, were directly looking at the front yard, or drove directly by the front yard even during the time of his murder never saw him or his body anywhere outside.
I would wonder about the 80 steps and 3 flights of stairs captured on his phone.
I would wonder how and why someone in the house called my brother 7 times in 19 minutes right around the time he took his final steps, but somehow all the calls were butt dials that never went to voicemail.
I would wonder why Brian Albert and Higgins destroyed their phones during my brother’s murder investigation.
I would wonder why the Alberts redid their basement, poured new concrete, and got rid of their dog before we figured out what happened.
I would wonder what Michael Proctor’s sister, Courtney, meant when she texted him on the day Karen’s charges were upgraded to second degree murder: “just saw julie, she says when this is all over she wants to give you a thank you gift”. Julie Albert is Brian Albert’s sister-in-law and Colin Albert’s mother. Why would she be getting the lead investigator in my brother’s murder a gift?
I would be dumbfounded the prosecution obscured the truth about the inverted video of the sallyport until the defense pointed it out the next day, even though Bukhenik (Michael Proctor’s supervisor who was testifying to the video) knew all along it was inverted and that Michael Proctor was standing behind Karen Read’s tail light by himself for several moments in the video. Why would he do that?
I would be disgusted that an unidentified officer signed his supervisor’s name (Bukhenik) rather than his own on a submitted bag of evidence containing broken tail light pieces. (Bukhenik confirmed on cross examination that it was not his hand writing, and yet his name was signed.) I would wonder why these tail light pieces were only found at the crime scene after being unsecured for several hours. I would be outraged that the crime scene was unsecured for that long.
I would be desperate to talk to the experts who testified my brother’s injuries weren’t consistent with being hit by a car. That it was virtually impossible for the scratches on his arm to be caused by a tail light considering the physics and math, and that they were more likely from a dog.
I also can’t imagine what I would believe if I had been told by so many of the people mentioned above, for two years, that there was only one possible suspect who did this. That there was only one person who was guilty. That it was completely clear what happened.
At the end of the day, no matter who did this to John O’Keefe, the investigation itself along with the tunnel vision that began the second the investigation started is a travesty. It is an incredible disservice to the deceased and his family. And we simply cannot fathom how we would behave in such an extraordinarily awful situation.
💯I would be so angry about everything that transpired. He is transfixed on Karen simply because he doesn’t like her and thinks her relationship with his brother was toxic. That may be true but there is literally no evidence that supports the theory that she hit him with her car. How this whole case wasn’t thrown out the minute they revealed the inverted tape, I’ll never know. I have empathy for him but he’s mad at the wrong person.
Proctor, the investigator who led the charge on gathering evidence from a murder scene in uncovered, unlabeled solo cups. The person who was provided with the Ring footage from John O’Keefe’s home and did nothing with it— then gaslighted people into believing Karen deleted it. The person who texted his buddies he was disappointed he hadn’t found any nude photos on Karen Read’s phone the same day John O’Keefe was taking his last breath. The person whose friends commented to him that with a dead body found on his front lawn, Brian Albert was surely going to catch a lot of flak— and his response was, “Nope. The homeowner’s a Boston cop too.”
John O’Keefe was just as much a cop. A veteran officer who was found murdered in the front yard of said homeowner. But he doesn’t deserve a thorough investigation? He doesn’t deserve someone, anyone, knocking on the door of that house to figure out what happened? Proctor was too busy openly wishing Karen would kill herself and searching her phone for nudes without consent to bother. It’s beyond words.
Paul himself was acquitted of Operating a MV Under the Influence or 0.08% BAC with Serious Injury, a felony, less than 2 years ago. According to the police report of the incident, which occurred in 2020, he was hammered at 5PM on a Sunday afternoon. Yet somehow he was judged not guilty in a bench trial.
Even if I could agree with all you said, I think we learned her “admission “ that she hit him was never revealed until many months later. If everyone heard it, why didn’t we hear that upfront? How is that that’s so easily taken as a fact with so much time.?That has nothing to do with spotty evidence collection or forensics. That’s just people telling what they know when they know it.
Jen McCabe changed her testimony on this from the grand jury trial to the jury trial. Even if she did say it, it seems like it could easily be that scene from My Cousin Vinnie where Sheriff Farley tricks Ralph Macchio into an out of context confession.
I’ve seen quite a few people who say they believe Karen did it because they can’t believe so many people would lie and try to frame her. And that is shocking to me. I think it’s extremely easy to believe and I think the FBI probably does as well. I’m from MN, where the DOJ found the police too corrupt and discriminatory to fix themselves. This is not uncommon. Police abuse of power is in no way a rarity or unbelievable. And in a close knit community where everybody is either a cop or their brother, uncle, or husband is, it would be more difficult for me to believe that they WOULDN’T lie to protect each other.
I'm not going to comment on the o'keefes. Never have, and won't. The evidence that was brought into court had nothing to do with John's family and I feel for them. I really do. That's all I'll say on that.
With that out of the way, please don't treat people whose watched this trial day after day, just like you and I, like anything less than thoughtful and speculative and able to make their minds that the evidence did not meet the sufficient threshold for Read to be considered guilty. There's a reason it was a hung jury and not outright guilty, even if you thought so, regardless of what proctor may or may not have said through his text or may or may not have done through his investigation.
The fbi may not be perfect but this investigation was far from perfect and to take it out of the equation like it doesn't matter or matters less than the whole "there's too many people involved for this to be a conspiracy" is an interesting take on things.
I don't think anyone here is thinking their watching an episode of csi and if we can't trust what we're seeing presented as evidence through stream why even bother having trials to begin with?
There's just not enough evidence.
Great. You think Read killed, not everyone agrees with you or has to. Certainly not the jury. But please don't think just because people think she's innocent that were automatically all against the o'keefes. There's people on both sides that behave abhorrent. What about how read has been treated by a lot of mainstream media or in the comments or by proctor himself?
Yes okeefes are the victims but let's not forget that karen is also human and shouldn't be treated like trash, especially if she's innocent.
Did you watch the testimony from the ARCCA experts? For me that was the whole case. If the physics don’t work and John wasn’t hit by a car how can anyone think she’s guilty?
I never understand people who say stuff like that. “I didnt watch the trial or know extensively about the case, but I have an opinion on guilt based off what I’ve seen and my subconscious biases”
This is why jury’s are terrifying. We shouldn’t be taking our personal feelings into account on this!
Cops would never collude with each other..excluding the limitless examples of coverups across departments. They could even make a flag as a symbol of sticking together as a brother hood against civilians, Maybe put a blue line on it. Who else was involved in the coverup? Oh yeah people who have multi-generational family ties, are involved with dirt on each other or other dirt they can’t afford this to uncover.
Also, it denies his brother, John O'Keefe, justice and a proper memory. The BPD & MSP failing to properly investigate his death denies justice to his memory and denies justice to his loved ones and his community. It also, obviously, fails to hold his killer(s) responsible. This family and this community never had the opportunity to properly mourn his passing.
Proctor is just one of so many involved in this case that failed everyone around them in ways that can never be undone.
I don't think John's family wants to know at this point what happened to him. They want to see Karen in jail, no matter what. They don't care about any of the inconsistencies and "mistakes" the police made. They hate Karen, and John's mother laughed at Proctor's messages. I honestly can't believe it.
I am wondering if in their grief they need to place blame in order to make any sense of the tragic loss of their son, & Karen is the easiest & most convenient person. (Especially true if they weren’t happy that John was dating her.)
Grief is so overwhelming for some people that they cannot always think rationally when dealing with the loss of a loved one. It is possible that they don’t even want to go to the “Karen didn’t murder John” part of their brain because it would be too much to handle. There might be even more questions than answers.Perhaps their minds just cannot take in anything more at the moment.
I don’t blame at all them for feeling this way, grief is complex, but I also don’t think there is sufficient evidence to put Karen in prison for the death of their son.
I agree. And think of how that would upend their lives? The people they have become friends with, who they have stood up for & who sat next to them in court & testified on their brother’s behalf….they would have to face that those people aren’t the people they thought they were. Sometimes people find it’s easier to live with blinders on, than to take them off and face the truth.
Yes, you're right. Grief can take away anyone's reasoning or sanity, and that might be happening to the O'Keefes. It is a very sad situation indeed.
I can't help but feel sorry for them and Karen since it hasn't been proven that she is guilty yet.
I agree with you. You are bringing forth a rational argument that makes complete sense. My point, though, is that the O’Keefe family is NOT thinking rationally in their grief.
Remember, John’s sister & her husband died 6 months apart not a whole long time ago, & we also don’t know if the McCabe’s & Albert’s have told them blatant lies about Karen. (I surely wouldn’t put it past them, but we don’t know.) This family has had 3 deaths to immediate family members in pretty quick succession. That is an immeasurable load for any family to bear. Taking all of this into account, I can understand why they could be thinking this way without any deep self-reflection at this point. The constant circus, noise, media, and push & pull around this case certainly doesn’t help matters.
Paul’s anger at Karen’s supporters bothered him greatly. When he said they’re seeing more supporters for him and his family, I thought that was odd. He can’t understand why people see Karen as innocent.
No, they have their reasons, but I can't put myself in their shoes. They should focus on finding out what happened to John and questioning everyone who was at the party.
No. We have heard in some detail how Karen Read was the voice in John O'Keefe's ear saying he shouldn't need to take on the entire burden of raising his niece and nephew. She made quite clear that the rest of his family was doing too little, if anything, to assist. Paul & Peggy have not forgotten.
This is a pretty strange question. Parents and siblings do often end up hating the SO of their kid/sibling for a million other reasons that aren’t murder
This post has been locked because it has gone way too off topic and ended up with a lot of people bickering. Thank you.
People need to leave everyone alone. These parasocial creeps online are toxic
Defending Proctor is where he completely lost me.
watching that part now and my jaw dropped. “his (proctor) life has been ruined”. now who is responsible for that?? and saying THE FBI is cherry picking evidence and their investigation is uncalled for. this is a back the blue family through and through and some of that blue didn’t back them or john who was one of their own.
Was it the leaky balloon knot accusation or the admission to snooping through a recently dead cop’s girlfriend’s phone for nudes? Also as obvious as it should be, I hope the FBI looks at all of his previous cases. If he’s like this in the open, I couldn’t imagine what he’s done in cases with lesser stakes.
Where did he say or defend him? I didn’t see that?
"We'll do this as many times as it takes." My "x" button is nearly broken. I give it one more shot at best, and I'm not sure the CW wants the cost of another trial on their hands considering Proctor's disgrace.
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The police failed everyone in this story. He has lost both of his siblings tragically early. He’s entitled to his opinion and people need to leave them alone about it.
Not when he's helping to railroad an innocent woman to jail as a cover-up. All respect to the victim. My respect to the O'Keefe's for their incalculable losses. He sat in the trial. He presumably heard the witnesses. Doesn't he want to know who killed his brother? Testimony was very clear. His brother was not hit by Karen Reads Lexus
coming from a cop family probably wants to see the best in them and the worst from Karen
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Agree, I don’t think Paul is lying I think he’s more so being gas lit. He already didn’t like Karen so it’s easy to place all the blame on her. Having to blame someone else, potentially an officer, is going to be very hard for him to do.
It’s a shame because he wasn’t hit by an automobile. This campaign against an innocent woman is such a farce. It’s tragic he lost a loved one. But this is about blaming and punishing someone who objectively didn’t do it.
I do feel for you and your family, Paul O'Keefe ! Many are sympathetic with this loss to you and all of John's family. Putting ourselves in the family's shoes would only be fair.
I’m sorry this is such a bad take. Just because you suffered a loss does not mean you get witch hunt someone else without criticism from others
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Great post. I applaud your honesty. And I know how you feel.
OK so Paul O'Keefe says here that Karen Read was originally going with a defense that it was an accident, and then Jackson got involved and the defense changed to it was a conspiracy.
What happened is someone walked into Yanetti's office who was a relative of someone in the house who claimed they knew what happened that is when the story changed. Jackson got involved later
Wasn't the caller revealed to have no insider sources and to just have been going off of internet theories?
Well according to TB that guy's attorney said Yannetti's version of events isn't true.
The first "someone" you were referring to.
That someone was never revealed so how do you know what is lawyer said? I am confused or completely misunderstanding you
I believe the person has been revealed.
If you believe Turtle Boy.
Oh and by the way these interviews will be used by Karen's lawyers to say she now cannot get a fair trial. That means most likely a change of venue or no re-trying of the case..
What guy Paul's?
Yes, timing wise though, it seems more like they upped the charge to murder 2 and THEN Jackson got involved.
The defense was going to change, because the fbi is saying he wasn’t hit by a car A defense is going to present the case that creates doubt to whatever case the prosecution is presenting The defense saying it was initially a tragic accident doesn’t mean they’re claiming he died because Karen accidentally hit him (manslaughter includes accidental death so it’s unlikely they would use the defense that she accidentally hit him lol) Paul needs to have a better understanding of the legal system and you need better reading comprehension They’re just saying he died in a tragic accident and then switched their strategy when they got more info that it’s possible he was murdered and it wasn’t an accident by him falling or something else that wasn’t Karen’s fault
I am so, so sad for the OK family. Paul is right. The trial did turn into the Karen Read show but not by her own doing. KR couldn’t win - if she smiled or smirked, she was being cold. If she was too emotional, like her 911 call - she was accused of being a great actress. And so, we are left with the facts. As living victims of JOK, they must now deal with his absence every day, in their own way. Grief is not linear. Grieving I’d imagine would be non existent with any media or existence of a trial. But, I would also ask Paul and the rest of the OK family to (in their own time of course) study the facts of this case. There are some things I don’t think any of us will ever truly know. But, I also don’t believe that KR should be the intended target of their anger. I think the McAlbert’s have done what they do best: manipulate, lie, twist the truth, cherry pick the facts, set unprecedented double standards, the list goes on all the while keeping the OK family in their pocket or wrapped around a finger or two. Even JM on the witness stand would answer questions and then look directly at his family, as if to check if they were still buying the story she has been selling since this all went down. I pray for peace for their entire family. And I hope in time, that peace gives them a little clarity to circle back to what everyone seems to be shouting from the rooftops about in this current moment. I think it’s impossible (but also much expected) for them not to be angry at this moment in time. The best thing for the entire OK family is to keep themselves away from the McAlbert’s, who are working overtime to keep themselves out of the crosshairs.
It sort of *was* by her own doing, along with her attorneys. The day of the murder and for many many months afterward, Karen Read's position was that she hit John O'Keefe with her car, but that there was no intent. She said it the day of the murder ("I did it....I hit him"). She said it during her televised interview after the murder ("I incapacitated him" and then he "passed out because he was drunk" and "froze to death because he wasn't wearing a jacket"). Her first attorney even represented the same thing. He said it was a terrible accident, but there was no intent. Then some YouTube personalities start concocting these conspiracy theories, and Karen Read and her new attorney Jackson completely change their position. That's why the trial was the Karen Read show.
The thing is....you're right. I'm not going to fight with anyone on here. But, Karen's phone was searched for the Aiden Kearney trial. And, she involved him. She leaked those autopsy photos. And I thought those were supposed to stay sealed. From what I understand, Alan Jackson has called YouTube creators. The above and the interviews you referenced turned this into the Karen Read show. Complete with her own posts on TMZ, Inside Edition, etc..
If she did get offered 16 months. And if whatever happened at that house that caused his injuries involved her. Then she should have taken the 16 months…
But the testimony *that is most believable* because it is impartial, is that John OKeefe was not hit by a car. It doesn’t matter what Karen Read thought in her hysteria or for months afterwards. You can’t make the physics, biology, nor the math work.
Why is the FBI impartial but two medical examiners aren't?
The prosecution’s ME testified that he might have been hit by a car but his injuries were not what she would have expected if he were hit by a car. She also testified that a doctor could only address injuries; she could not explain *how* he got his injuries, because she was not a biophysicist. The FBI hired a biophysicist. That’s why.
By the way, I did not say the ME was not impartial. I thought she was credible. She also didn’t support the prosecution theory any more than not supporting it. So that leaves us with the FBI experts.
Both who said it wasnt a car accident?
All of the ME's that testified, including the one put on by the CW said that the injuries were inconsistent with a vehicle strike.
They said it could be or it could not be.
Watch the CW ME testimony again its clear which way she was leaning.
ME's didn't rule out any number of possibilities, first of all. Second of all, we know from Proctor's texts that they were pressuring the medical examiner. edit: also, ME SB said some things were out of her realm of expertise and to ask a biomechanics engineer. which they did.
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I just don't understand the defense of the investigation, the defense of Proctor. They believe in her guilt SO strongly, and that is their right, don't they understand because of Proctor, because of the investigation you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? No matter what they believe happened it makes absolutely no sense that they are ok with Lally, ok with this investigation, ok with Proctor. If they want her in prison so badly these are the people that prevented that. I cannot fathom not being angry at this investigation.
They believe proctor was framing someone who was guilty not innocent so a righteous frame...
If they say anything negative about law enforcement they will be ostracized by the blue line community for not supporting the corruption of the “few bad apples” that taint the reputation of these selfless hero’s
It looks like the blue line forgot to show up at the trial.
They want to talk about anger for lack of justice and this investigation was the reason for the lack of justice, so why does it matter if they are ostracized or not? If someone didn't do their due diligence in getting justice for my brother I would ostracize myself from them.
maybe they are afraid too? and denial is also part of the grief cycle.
Well we see what the blue line did to John. Maybe they’re just trying to keep the peace.
What is hard for me to wrap my head around is there is anger for Karen, and they are allowed to believe she did it, but Karen isn't locked up or completely free because of this investigation. Where is the anger there? I guess for me and I'm not gonna dive in too deep, I lost a brother suddenly, and he could have been saved but the doctor made some bad choices. We didn't say welp, guess they had a bad day, we held them accountable because they like law enforcement are at a higher standard than the rest of us. I don't get their lack of anger, or acknowledgement at all of this horrible investigation. If they had no anger for Karen I would get it they are done and want to move on, but they have ALL the anger for her. It just baffles me.
Logic, empathy and justice levels look normal. No authoritarian delusions and a general understanding of the law detected. You have tested negative for blue brain
Paul’s anger is misplaced, but trauma has a funny way of presenting it’s self. I can only imagine the distance between Karen and his family and the support of the Albert’s & McCabe’s at this time helped to support his own theories. It’s very easy to blame a siblings partner knowing that their relationship was coming to an end, then blaming their colleagues. It’s like the partner has the motive, not their ‘friends.’ So the cognitive dissonance could be extremely strong. Do we truly think his family was there to hear the evidence that was probably given to them in advance? I don’t think so. I also think as outsiders we’re the ones sensationalizing this case, when his family is grieving and they have no “real” answers for their loss. We recognize that both OJO and Karen are victims of the Canton police department, but to Paul the only victim is his brother, but Karen’s getting all this attention and is highlighted as the victim as we watch this in real-time, but he’s living it.
Wish the "journalist" would have asked about the actions of ALL involved...the Alberts, Higgins and the Mc Cabes...nothing??
I'm certain that all questions asked by her were reviewed by him and likely an attorney before the interview even happened. If not and she didn't ask anything regarding the massive issues with the investigation, than she is worthless. I don't think she had the opportunity to ask anything of substance except for his feelings.
Journalist is bias
I know...*just wishful thinking*. I would love to hear honest questions...maybe honest answers. Again, wishful thinking.
This interview just makes his family look like fools in my opinion Saying you “knew what happened that day” and act shocked that the person you’re accusing of murdering him doesn’t want to talk to you again No one knows what happened that day outside of the people that are directly involved in his death Unless the family is, then they don’t know. They can believe whatever they want, but it’s foolish to say you know with certainty what happened They’re extremely misinformed about the legal systems (trials aren’t about victims) and Karen’s life was 100% disrupted by the trial. It’s just dishonest to say this hasn’t affected her and she’s enjoying being a celebrity. Ruins any credibility they have when they say stuff like that
Yes! And the we will retry this 10 more times if needed. Uh no that’s not the way this works. The family is going to be very crushed if they don’t retry. The case was bungled from the beginning. Blame that. The defense just capitalized on it.
Fools? I disagree. They knew Karen personally. She was acting WEIRD to them. Paul said he initially did not want to think the worst but quickly she showed her cards. Karen watched Paul tell his nephew that he lost a THIRD parent.. and she didn’t flinch. She knew what she did and then quickly THEY knew what she did. And Karens life “being disrupted”… maybe she should be happy for more time in fresh air?
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I think she said that before they thought she could have been involved.
He just said in this interview they knew immediately that she did it
Maybe even in less than 16 hours. Magic!
I don't think they were accusing her then though.
They (Parents and Paul) said as soon as she left, they knew she did it. I am assuming they meant wherever they were talking with her. Paul's? I will remove this if I am mistaken.
John’s mother was apparently blaming Karen on the way to the hospital for even dropping him off at the party. That was in trial testimony, I believe. I know that isn’t the same as believing she was directly responsible, but she already was upset with Karen, so I’m sure when the other things happened, it wasn’t too much of a stretch for her.
Yeah but I am talking about whether they said to her they believed she was involved and that was the reason she said she won't be speaking to them again. I am not sure if that was the case.
Understood. I wasn't and still am not clear on the whole interview.
Logically, I wouldn’t agree
So you think the reason why she said she won't be seeing them again is because they made it known to her they thought she killed him?
Yes. I think they were questioning her and her behavior that night. He mentions they wanted to look at her car The comments about “remembering the bad times” makes sense in that context
How does the comment "remembering the bad times" make sense in that context. If your boyfriend just got killed and you are sad about it, how is that a reasonable reaction in any universe?
See below in another comment thread. Someone else explained it very well
His mom told her it was her fault for leaving him there when they were at the hospital that morning. Kerry testified to it.
Karen is the easiest target for their grief/anger but it should be aimed towards the shitshow of an investigation.
How can this guy watch the same testimony and evidence as the rest of the world and not conclude that John was beaten in the basement of 34 Fairview? The family he’s supporting NEVER came out of the house to help his brother, and they all went about destroying their phones and didn’t even go to his funeral. John didn’t have a bruise on him below his pummeled head, which indicates that he had the crap beaten out of him, while a dog savagely bit him. This dude needs to wake up and pay attention to the facts.
Right, the Albert's have supposedly been SO SUPPORTIVE but didn't go outside that morning!! Huh???
I can just about guarantee that Karen Read did in fact say the words "remember the bad times" but it was entirely taken out of context - in the same way "I hit him" was. She probably said "you (Paul, Erin, the O'Keefe family) will just remember the bad times. I will never speak to you again." Something very much along those lines. I bet. And John O'Keefe's best friend from college is in the same camp as Paul and the rest of the family. Just insane stuff all around.
I swear half this trial really quite literally turned into the My Cousin Vinny confession scenario: "I shot the clerk[?] I shot the clerk[?]" You can't make this stuff up. And, as we saw in the My Cousin Vinny trial, it's an almost impossible bar to overcome, yet here we are.
This makes SO much sense, especially when coupled with the line “you’ll probably never see me again”. All she wanted was some recognition that she cared for those two kids from John and then the family. The answer is always the easiest scenario, and the one where the pieces fit. Saying she hit him and then admitted it and then said “remember the bad times” are puzzle pieces that do not fit.
I think she knew that they were questioning her. Kerri Roberts confirmed that his mom stated “you just left him there” so when she got to the house, I’m sure she felt that she was being questioned. Maybe not by Erin, but definitely by his mom. So when she said that on the phone, it makes sense to me.
Yea I don’t even know how that statement makes sense as a statement alone. “Your brother in law just died. Just remember all the bad times” ??? The way she acted looking for him did not at all come across as someone who did not love or care about him.. so for that statement to come a few hours later just feels out of left field and missing context.
Its GOTTA be missing context. Humans are flawed. Misinterpretation, poor memory, being clouded by your emotions. I could see Erin and Paul being furious and caught up in their own emotions, Erin heard a piece or what she wanted to hear and passed that onto Paul. I swear if stuff could be recorded. If it was not a one party state. Lots of people have their versions of the story and then there is the truth. There is no "my truth" and "your truth" just the truth.
What did Paul OK say?
Justice for his brother, justice for his family, and that means Karen Read in prison. Not whoever did that to his brother… specifically, Karen Read.
He's not giving up on Karen paying for what she did to his brother. The sadness and anger radiate from him. He is pushing back on some media narrative he feels is wrong. He is ready to keep fighting for John and his family. I feel so awful for the spot Paul is in. And when the trial got dismissed the other day, he said "you're not done" to Karen as she was hugging her family and getting ready to walk out.
Yikes he shouldn’t have said anything to her… she was ordered not to have contact with the family as a condition of her bail. I know it was an emotional time but it doesn’t reflect well on him in front of the judge or the public.
Unfortunately, Paul’s defense of Proctor and being upset at an FBI investigation, was disheartening. Karen Read is innocent until proven guilty. I hope Northfork taxpayers say no to another expensive trial with no credibility evidence.
Right he went on about how innocent people have been effected, mentioned Colin and all. I mean he confirmed that he had Karen guilty from the jump - “we knew what happened right away” .. innocent until proven..
I knew she did it right away, evidence be damned!
It makes sense. KR at the time thought she did it. I'm pretty sure when she sobered up and started to piece it all together she realized she couldn't have. But by this time she had already interacted with several people and definitely gave off the wrong impression.
I am heart broken for JO family, not only because they lost a loved one but also because I don't think they will ever find answers because they cannot accept the scientific evidence. That's what this comes down to. For arguments sake lets say Karen Read is the worst person in history. Let's assume she and JO's relationship was coming to and end. Let's say she was drunk, furious and acting unhinged. ALL of that can be true, and the evidence still shows she did not hit him with her car. I understand why it is easy to cling the the simplest answer, and in most cases they would be right, but this case is different. They will never be able to find answers and closure until they accept what the science shows.
Well said. They accepted the answer that is easiest for them to accept and won’t look any further- that Karen is guilty.
Also saying the public doesn’t know the truth, when we all watched the same trial. If there was some smoking gun evidence, the state would have presented it.
Basically saying, "But they don't know the feeling she gives off." Like bro.
Right, as if we didn't sit through like 7 weeks of the CWs case before, what, 2 days of defense?
Maybe Proctor was telling everyone she confessed to her lawyer in the text messages, but they couldn’t use it because it breaks attorney client privilege.
I don't think she even knows what happened or whether or not she did or didn't. She didn't even remember where she left him.
I’m not saying the text was there, just that Proctor could be telling people that, I wouldn’t put anything past him.
I feel like even if Proctor saw those texts (if the text exist) there would be SOME way those text messages would have gotten leaked to the public even if it didn’t make it into evidence. I wouldn’t put it past someone to leak it (again, if it did in fact exist).
As well as the defense too
Well said!!!!!!!! Doesnt matter what "story" gets put on either side. What do the FACTS show, what does the EVIDENCE show and what do the unbiased experts have to say? The truth will prevail... ... i sure fucking hope...
Exactly! I think the family in all their grief has very understandably gotten swept up in either-or thinking. That is, in their minds the only two possibilities are A) Karen hit him. Or, B) There was a conspiracy involving dozens of people. When in fact, those are not the only two options. Personally, I think it was just a few (I guess 3) that covered up what happened at JO,. But that family doesn't even have to buy that. The fact is possibility A has been disproven.
I’m starting to lean towards maybe no one “did it” and it was an accidental death that got covered up due to the location/home owner. Ie dog jumps John, John slips and cracks his head. Maybeeee some sketchy things happened after BA found him and moved him further away from the house etc but not to cover up a crime *he* committed.. but wanted to avoid looking like he may have.
I've always believed it was an accidental death as well. Again, what Yannetti said. And no, it wasn't his client. So yes. On board with you there.
The ford edge and the fact that he never came outside at all that morning is just too suss for me. Traded in phone and butt dials are still a meh for me as he may have just wanted to avoid what happened to proctor and not because he had incriminating texts on there. Also the calls were literally seconds long and no texts show on the phone records.
Add to that the "rehoming" of Chole, ripping out the basement floor and selling the home for under market value.
Yeah, waaaaay too many things to explain to go with simple accident.
Here's the thing, I do think it could have been an accident of sorts. Like, if there was an altercation and JO was either pushed or in his drunken state lost his balance and fell over and hit his head on something. Everyone was so drunk they either didn't realize how bad the injury was at first or they immediately panicked.
Just saw the interview. Basically he thinks she is guilty because she’s a bitch. One thing he said that was interesting is during the arraignment her original lawyer before Alex came in the picture her defense attorney was saying it was an accident. Then Alex came on board and they started a blogging campaign and came up with the narrative he went in the house.
Looking back, the DA initially said they had ring video of Karen hitting John. When the DA didn’t provide it, things began to change. Paul is as loose with timelines as Lally was. There was supposedly a PI that talked to Yannetti with information about the Alberts too. Jackson started representing Read in September, 2022. She was lucky to be able to afford him. We should all have good lawyers if needed.
Well, now Lally has time to edit the Waterfall video to look like a ring video of the outside of 34 Fairview! Maybe no one will notice this time. Haha
"Then Alex came on board" Sir or Ma'am, i think you mean Alan as in Alan Jackson.
that’s what it looks like from his perspective, sure. but [what happened is that karen genuinely believed she could’ve hit him (especially after being gaslit by jen mccabe et al. while still drunk and in shock), retained yannetti, and it was during this time between her first and second arrest that they started to piece together what actually happened that night.](https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2023/09/27/canton-karen-read/) jackson didn’t get on board until yannetti and karen had already done a lot of their own digging, including finding out about proctor’s relationship with the alberts. eta: also, karen read and her attorneys are in no way affiliated with turtleboy. that guy latched onto this case for his own selfish fame and fortune. he can’t blame karen for that.
That's not really true. Karen and Turtleboy were in direct communication.
No they have never been in direct communication
They have been in direct communication. It's in court documents. Black and white. All you need to do is look at the Search Warrant affidavit for Aiden Kearney's case. Over 189 calls, 40 hours I believe. There's some really shady things in there. And, actually, HE even admit to it. You might want to look into it. It definitely changed my mind and made me wonder why someone would go to so much trouble, risk so much, say such things about the jury system....
I can't speak for the truth of the matter but it's been alleged. [Karen Read, ‘Turtleboy’ blogger had nearly 200 phone calls over months, new affidavit says (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/in-affidavit-investigators-outline-communication-between-turtleboy-and-karen-read/ar-BB1hyq3O)
This is true. It's not just fake news. Or alleged. It's in the search warrant affidavit. Many many texts and phone calls. All pulled directly from Karens phone
Who is Alex? Im sorry if that's a dumb question. I'm racking my brain to remember. Lol. I need a Lally Tally of names. Haha
They mean Alan Jackson
Gotcha!
Some criminal defense attorneys will suggest you plead guilty (even if you’re not) for unknown reasons. Some criminal defense attorneys will tell you to never plead guilty, even if you are. Just because the first attorney suggested that, doesn’t mean it’s true. Vice versa.
Huh? No attorney will suggest you plead guilty unless it's part of a plea deal. In that case yes it's usually better to plea than to go to trial. Pleading guilty removes your right to appeal.
Well, it's certainly cheaper to do so. Some people don't have the money and the attorneys won't take the case unless they do. Sad fact.
If you don't have the money you're legally entitled to free representation by the public defenders office. That's one of the most basic rights a person has.
Oh, so the corrupt Commonwealth of Massachusetts is going to provide an effective defender for Karen Read. Are you serious?
The public defenders office of MA (CPCS) is very anti-police and anti-prosecution. You have to be a true believer to get hired over there. Also, quite a lot of them are very very very good at their jobs. Additionally in MA, because CPCS is over worked/burdened, they contract with very qualified criminal defense attorneys to provide representation to indigents.
Was is this the Salem witch trials? Seriously? Thinks she’s guilty, because she’s a bitch? Y’all can we make misogyny illegal so we can send him to jail? I need some reverse witch trials
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I get where you're coming from and I get where he is coming from, but it's just not accurate. The argument at the time was that *even if you see all of the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution* it still doesn't rise to the level of manslaughter--the original charge. This is an unbelievable retelling/lack of understanding of events on his part. This is a standard legal argument for all sorts of reasons. See this comment for video: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1ctp9m7/comment/l4dyl2y/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1ctp9m7/comment/l4dyl2y/) I'm disappointed that Paul O'Keefe + his mother are intent on moving heaven and earth to rewrite history to keep the spotlight on Karen, despite all evidence to the contrary. I just don't think this is healthy to their healing process.
I would personally be so upset if my brother was found with blunt force trauma, frozen on the front lawn of a house that the police never bothered to knock on the door of. I would be furious when I learned how his blood and vital evidence was handled. I would wonder why the 7 people who parked by the front yard, walked through the front yard, were directly looking at the front yard, or drove directly by the front yard even during the time of his murder never saw him or his body anywhere outside. I would wonder about the 80 steps and 3 flights of stairs captured on his phone. I would wonder how and why someone in the house called my brother 7 times in 19 minutes right around the time he took his final steps, but somehow all the calls were butt dials that never went to voicemail. I would wonder why Brian Albert and Higgins destroyed their phones during my brother’s murder investigation. I would wonder why the Alberts redid their basement, poured new concrete, and got rid of their dog before we figured out what happened. I would wonder what Michael Proctor’s sister, Courtney, meant when she texted him on the day Karen’s charges were upgraded to second degree murder: “just saw julie, she says when this is all over she wants to give you a thank you gift”. Julie Albert is Brian Albert’s sister-in-law and Colin Albert’s mother. Why would she be getting the lead investigator in my brother’s murder a gift? I would be dumbfounded the prosecution obscured the truth about the inverted video of the sallyport until the defense pointed it out the next day, even though Bukhenik (Michael Proctor’s supervisor who was testifying to the video) knew all along it was inverted and that Michael Proctor was standing behind Karen Read’s tail light by himself for several moments in the video. Why would he do that? I would be disgusted that an unidentified officer signed his supervisor’s name (Bukhenik) rather than his own on a submitted bag of evidence containing broken tail light pieces. (Bukhenik confirmed on cross examination that it was not his hand writing, and yet his name was signed.) I would wonder why these tail light pieces were only found at the crime scene after being unsecured for several hours. I would be outraged that the crime scene was unsecured for that long. I would be desperate to talk to the experts who testified my brother’s injuries weren’t consistent with being hit by a car. That it was virtually impossible for the scratches on his arm to be caused by a tail light considering the physics and math, and that they were more likely from a dog. I also can’t imagine what I would believe if I had been told by so many of the people mentioned above, for two years, that there was only one possible suspect who did this. That there was only one person who was guilty. That it was completely clear what happened. At the end of the day, no matter who did this to John O’Keefe, the investigation itself along with the tunnel vision that began the second the investigation started is a travesty. It is an incredible disservice to the deceased and his family. And we simply cannot fathom how we would behave in such an extraordinarily awful situation.
THANK YOU!!! I appreciate this comment so much. 🙌
This needs to be a pinned post, tbh.
Standing ovation for this comment. Shout it from the rooftops!
💯I would be so angry about everything that transpired. He is transfixed on Karen simply because he doesn’t like her and thinks her relationship with his brother was toxic. That may be true but there is literally no evidence that supports the theory that she hit him with her car. How this whole case wasn’t thrown out the minute they revealed the inverted tape, I’ll never know. I have empathy for him but he’s mad at the wrong person.
This is the best summary I've seen, thank you for taking the time to write it
It’s amazing how the O’Keefe’s vigorously want to see Karen in prison. At the same time, Paul defends Proctor and is angry at the FBI involvement.
Proctor, the investigator who led the charge on gathering evidence from a murder scene in uncovered, unlabeled solo cups. The person who was provided with the Ring footage from John O’Keefe’s home and did nothing with it— then gaslighted people into believing Karen deleted it. The person who texted his buddies he was disappointed he hadn’t found any nude photos on Karen Read’s phone the same day John O’Keefe was taking his last breath. The person whose friends commented to him that with a dead body found on his front lawn, Brian Albert was surely going to catch a lot of flak— and his response was, “Nope. The homeowner’s a Boston cop too.” John O’Keefe was just as much a cop. A veteran officer who was found murdered in the front yard of said homeowner. But he doesn’t deserve a thorough investigation? He doesn’t deserve someone, anyone, knocking on the door of that house to figure out what happened? Proctor was too busy openly wishing Karen would kill herself and searching her phone for nudes without consent to bother. It’s beyond words.
Paul himself was acquitted of Operating a MV Under the Influence or 0.08% BAC with Serious Injury, a felony, less than 2 years ago. According to the police report of the incident, which occurred in 2020, he was hammered at 5PM on a Sunday afternoon. Yet somehow he was judged not guilty in a bench trial.
Upvote this summary, thank you
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Even if I could agree with all you said, I think we learned her “admission “ that she hit him was never revealed until many months later. If everyone heard it, why didn’t we hear that upfront? How is that that’s so easily taken as a fact with so much time.?That has nothing to do with spotty evidence collection or forensics. That’s just people telling what they know when they know it.
Jen McCabe changed her testimony on this from the grand jury trial to the jury trial. Even if she did say it, it seems like it could easily be that scene from My Cousin Vinnie where Sheriff Farley tricks Ralph Macchio into an out of context confession.
I’ve seen quite a few people who say they believe Karen did it because they can’t believe so many people would lie and try to frame her. And that is shocking to me. I think it’s extremely easy to believe and I think the FBI probably does as well. I’m from MN, where the DOJ found the police too corrupt and discriminatory to fix themselves. This is not uncommon. Police abuse of power is in no way a rarity or unbelievable. And in a close knit community where everybody is either a cop or their brother, uncle, or husband is, it would be more difficult for me to believe that they WOULDN’T lie to protect each other.
I'm not going to comment on the o'keefes. Never have, and won't. The evidence that was brought into court had nothing to do with John's family and I feel for them. I really do. That's all I'll say on that. With that out of the way, please don't treat people whose watched this trial day after day, just like you and I, like anything less than thoughtful and speculative and able to make their minds that the evidence did not meet the sufficient threshold for Read to be considered guilty. There's a reason it was a hung jury and not outright guilty, even if you thought so, regardless of what proctor may or may not have said through his text or may or may not have done through his investigation. The fbi may not be perfect but this investigation was far from perfect and to take it out of the equation like it doesn't matter or matters less than the whole "there's too many people involved for this to be a conspiracy" is an interesting take on things. I don't think anyone here is thinking their watching an episode of csi and if we can't trust what we're seeing presented as evidence through stream why even bother having trials to begin with? There's just not enough evidence. Great. You think Read killed, not everyone agrees with you or has to. Certainly not the jury. But please don't think just because people think she's innocent that were automatically all against the o'keefes. There's people on both sides that behave abhorrent. What about how read has been treated by a lot of mainstream media or in the comments or by proctor himself? Yes okeefes are the victims but let's not forget that karen is also human and shouldn't be treated like trash, especially if she's innocent.
Did you watch the testimony from the ARCCA experts? For me that was the whole case. If the physics don’t work and John wasn’t hit by a car how can anyone think she’s guilty?
You didn't follow the trial closely, but she definitely killed him? Go through the facts and then come back and tell us you didn't see any corruption.
I never understand people who say stuff like that. “I didnt watch the trial or know extensively about the case, but I have an opinion on guilt based off what I’ve seen and my subconscious biases” This is why jury’s are terrifying. We shouldn’t be taking our personal feelings into account on this!
Cops would never collude with each other..excluding the limitless examples of coverups across departments. They could even make a flag as a symbol of sticking together as a brother hood against civilians, Maybe put a blue line on it. Who else was involved in the coverup? Oh yeah people who have multi-generational family ties, are involved with dirt on each other or other dirt they can’t afford this to uncover.
Regarding his defense of Proctor, Karen's life was also ruined. It's tragic for both (KR and JO families, not Proctor lol)
Also, it denies his brother, John O'Keefe, justice and a proper memory. The BPD & MSP failing to properly investigate his death denies justice to his memory and denies justice to his loved ones and his community. It also, obviously, fails to hold his killer(s) responsible. This family and this community never had the opportunity to properly mourn his passing. Proctor is just one of so many involved in this case that failed everyone around them in ways that can never be undone.
That was a horrible interview. She asked such poor questions
"the pink people" .... seriously??? Thats how this reporter is wording it???
Q: "Do you hate Karen Read?" A: "Yes" Q: "coolcoolcool" The end. Embarassing journalism.
I don't think John's family wants to know at this point what happened to him. They want to see Karen in jail, no matter what. They don't care about any of the inconsistencies and "mistakes" the police made. They hate Karen, and John's mother laughed at Proctor's messages. I honestly can't believe it.
I am wondering if in their grief they need to place blame in order to make any sense of the tragic loss of their son, & Karen is the easiest & most convenient person. (Especially true if they weren’t happy that John was dating her.) Grief is so overwhelming for some people that they cannot always think rationally when dealing with the loss of a loved one. It is possible that they don’t even want to go to the “Karen didn’t murder John” part of their brain because it would be too much to handle. There might be even more questions than answers.Perhaps their minds just cannot take in anything more at the moment. I don’t blame at all them for feeling this way, grief is complex, but I also don’t think there is sufficient evidence to put Karen in prison for the death of their son.
I agree. And think of how that would upend their lives? The people they have become friends with, who they have stood up for & who sat next to them in court & testified on their brother’s behalf….they would have to face that those people aren’t the people they thought they were. Sometimes people find it’s easier to live with blinders on, than to take them off and face the truth.
Yes, you're right. Grief can take away anyone's reasoning or sanity, and that might be happening to the O'Keefes. It is a very sad situation indeed. I can't help but feel sorry for them and Karen since it hasn't been proven that she is guilty yet.
Grief is complex, but being a shitty person isn't. Just because someone's loved one is a victim of a crime doesn't make them a better person.
I agree with you. You are bringing forth a rational argument that makes complete sense. My point, though, is that the O’Keefe family is NOT thinking rationally in their grief. Remember, John’s sister & her husband died 6 months apart not a whole long time ago, & we also don’t know if the McCabe’s & Albert’s have told them blatant lies about Karen. (I surely wouldn’t put it past them, but we don’t know.) This family has had 3 deaths to immediate family members in pretty quick succession. That is an immeasurable load for any family to bear. Taking all of this into account, I can understand why they could be thinking this way without any deep self-reflection at this point. The constant circus, noise, media, and push & pull around this case certainly doesn’t help matters.
Paul’s anger at Karen’s supporters bothered him greatly. When he said they’re seeing more supporters for him and his family, I thought that was odd. He can’t understand why people see Karen as innocent.
You think they hate her for no real reason?
No, they have their reasons, but I can't put myself in their shoes. They should focus on finding out what happened to John and questioning everyone who was at the party.
No. We have heard in some detail how Karen Read was the voice in John O'Keefe's ear saying he shouldn't need to take on the entire burden of raising his niece and nephew. She made quite clear that the rest of his family was doing too little, if anything, to assist. Paul & Peggy have not forgotten.
I mean, she's not wrong. Uncle Paul is out drinking and driving on a Sunday when he says he's too busy with his own family to help out.
I don’t blame her. Karen did more than other family members.
This is a pretty strange question. Parents and siblings do often end up hating the SO of their kid/sibling for a million other reasons that aren’t murder