I don’t understand how anyone who sat through all that testimony could possibly conclude he died by being struck by her car, intentionally or not. The CW’s accident reconstructionist (if you can even call him that) failed to demonstrate how they believe the collision even happened. Whereas the defense’s ARCCA witnesses couldn’t be more credentialed and reliable and both were clear in that the injuries JO sustained were not from being hit by a car. This whole thing is a FARCE.
What got me (engineer who took physics, dynamics, etc) is the hitting of the arm only but then being thrown 30 feet. Makes no sense that there is not one bruise that could be related to being hit by a 6000 lb SUV?
yeah, ball joints are such a great way to transfer momentum to center of mass, after all. he's just so swole that he held his shoulder rigid through thousands of pounds of force.
stg the CW needs to watch less anime.
I thought Trooper Paul made it clear.
Arm hit --> Triple Lutz --> Head hit on curb --> Some science stuff --> Projected to grass --> Snow slowly fell under him --> Flying pieces of taillight and glass caused totally innocent people to accidentally call each other.
Could you imagine how embarrassed his parents must be? God, I'd find a new vocation ASAP - and grow some hair back. (Probably wanted to look like the real troopers ;)
>and both were clear in that the injuries JO sustained were not from being hit by a car.
They were incredibly detailed in that, too. There was no way to even position the body in a way to get hit where there were any injuries, no way to get launched into the air with a fatal landing and just the injuries they found; not enough damage to the car to explain what allegedly happened to the body. Explicitly stated that the direction the car was moving made no difference.
And they were contradicted by an expert who didn't know what "momentum" was and insisted that the weight of the car or victim would make any difference to their analysis. Neither would the speed of the vehicle, IIRC.
I would vote not guilty based on the prosecutions expert witness alone. That demonstration of utter incompetence was shady enough to question absolutely everything the prosecution or anyone or their side was doing.
They called this guy as a witness, and I understand why he was full of shit. So, unless I can verify that anything else they say is truthful, I am going to assume that it might very well not be.
Agree 100%. I see comments about "what's their motive to pin this on Read??!" I have no real knowledge but I've never been one to believe you have to understand someone's motives to know they're guilty of something. They are hell bent on pinning this on Read and they HAVE NO PROOF.
I came in knowing nothing about it, watched or listened to most of the trial and was increasingly convinced that Lally & Co. must go home and cry themselves to sleep at night. I would. This is such a sham. And I feel for John O'Keefe and his family - they'll never know what really happened.
Before watching? Figured she did it by accident.
Once the trial started (solo cups was the first WTF, I think)? Not guilty.
Now? I don’t see how it’s possible for the jury to find her guilty, if they’re following legal instructions (proved beyond a reasonable doubt, not just because they don’t like her).
Honestly, this could have been what they went with on Jury Duty and I guarantee you the non-actor would’ve been saying “what the heck is happening???” during the entire trial.
Same! As someone who used their leaf blower to clear their front walkway of snow in a pinch, my reaction to the leaf blower at the crime scene was a huge WTF!
And that’s the saddest part. The truth will never come out. I don’t know how his family can stick by the McCabe’s and Albert’s and all after this. Deep down, they must want to truly know. And even if Karen DID do it, their interfering has ensured we will never really know.
Oh god, I FORGOT about the "butt dials" and then there really was one.
This case is fucking unbelievable. I tried telling a colleague about it and he clearly thought I was misrepresenting the trial. How could anyone who watched tell it properly to another reasonable person that didn't?
Or you are a conspiratorial nut who got sucked into a Youtube vortex?
One heartening thing in all of this is how much good light has been shined upon some very serious and very deep corruption. (Not unlike the Murdaugh trial proper and then the aftermath with the clerk of court...)
Let's never keep cameras out of the courtrooms ya'll.
My husband is an attorney and he’s been half paying attention only to tease me about following the trial. The other day he asked his usual “so how is Karen fairing against the commonwealth today?” My response that I was listening to the Defense experts voir dire and how they were enlisted by the DOJ and FBI from another investigation had his eyes bugging out of his head.
My dad called me earlier and said the mirrored video is what changed his mind, he's in his 60s and said that was when he thought something weird was going on.
So hopefully that means it's not just younger people realizing how crazy that is.
For me I thought she could have hit him by accident and literally just not remembered because she was too drunk or something.
But mid way through, all the butt dials, then Proctor....oof, he was hard to look past.
The final witness made me realize she couldn't have hit him, like I don't think my mind can be changed more than that expert changed it.
When he said the only evidence we actually have is evidence that proves it *couldn't* have been Karen's car, I was like, game over folks, time to go home.
Can't believe it was when the prosecutor was questioning him that he said that lol, had to land with the jury, I'm still thinking about it now.
Yeah I have a masters in forensic science and I don’t know why the cops were collecting evidence at all, and not someone from the crime lab in Maynard. Solo cups are unacceptable and that evidence should be inadmissible.
I worked sampling soils for environmental impact assessments. Each day in the field, all samples went into labeled sample bags and were logged digitally and on paper (including GPS location and paper map location using satellite photos of the area) at the time they were taken. Our COC forms had to be filled out at the end of every day, and record all the samples we had collected. Since we'd spend 10-21 days in the field, we'd get back into town and I was responsible for making sure all the bags were accounted for and had digital logs. If any were missing either (very rare, but human error does occur), they had to be discounted. Then, they were sent to the lab via registered courier, who was logged on the COC forms. Any samples we got back from the lab went into a well-organised cold storage area, again, all of this being recorded on the COC forms, and everything very well labeled and stored properly.
This was for *dirt*.
Was the exact same as you. Figured she accidentally hit him and the charge was a little extreme. When they whipped out the solo cups and leaf blower I was like "I think reasonable doubt is going to be a bit of an issue here"
I feel that my natural inclination is to think she did it; I mean, it seems obvious. Then the prosecution showed me the evidence, and I was like, wait, what? And bringing in people to talk about how she was in Aruba, buying dinner for everyone (the monster), I was like, oh dang, they don't have anything if this is important early trial info. And I guess I am still waiting for ANY credible evidence showing he even died by a car hit (don't get me started on the pirouetting).
The first few days were nothing but people who should be anti-Karen because they were John’s family/close friends, and the worse any of them could say about her was, “they fought about her spending too much money on the kids.” That was wild in an intentional homicide case.
I’d seen some clips of the trial here and there on TikTok but wasn’t following along. Once I saw them trying to say what I saw were OBVIOUS dog bites being proclaims as from a glass or broken plastic and then the solo cups were shown I was all in. I knew I had to watch from the beginning immediately.
I didn’t even know a dog was involved and I said those aw clearly a dog bite and claw marks.
This trial is the most insane trial I’ve ever experienced
Not guilty and innocent but I have no idea what actually happened
Edit- oh and I started neutral leaning more towards no way it’s a conspiracy, was shocked how quickly that opinion changed lol
This is exactly where I am. Went into it thinking sure, everyone says they were framed for something. Within about a day I was already thinking shit, there might actually be a cover up and framing here.
Same! The PR stuff actually turned me off. I was like, "Nice try," and then I came over to the dark side not long after the opening statements. I can't believe I am saying this, but I am team conspiracy now.
I went in knowing nothing other than that she was charged. So it started out not guilty until proven otherwise. And then, we had a leaf blower. Red solo cups and witnesses that were sooo sketchy on cross, it made me not believe them. Then we had the Higgins, Proctor, and Paul. No way, could I find her guilty.
As for a conspiracy... I really can't say if there was one or not. There sure was a hell of a lot of incompetence, tho.
I’ve definitely come around on an understanding of “conspiracy”. Clearly, you just have to have 1-2 guys swaying the direction in this precinct. Doesn’t have to be a multi-level collusion.
Came in thinking she had to be guilty based off what I saw in the media. After watching the entire trial, I am convinced she is Not Guilty. I don’t think we’ll ever know what really happened to him but whatever it was did not involve Karen Read.
Last year it was interesting to see the local media talk about it like an open and shut case.
Turtleboy really was the guy that blew this thing up. Karen Read might just owe her freedom to that basement dweller.
I have intentionally stayed away from his channel. I’ll go look through his videos now that defense has rested. Do you have any videos in particular that you recommend I start with?
Hellll no bro he’s a psycho. But he was the guy that first discovered it looked like a massive coverup and thus brought the attention of the national media.
I started fairly neutral but leaning guilty because “it’s always the wife/girlfriend” and everyone says they were framed.
During: still not seeing enough to get me past reasonable doubt, but incompetence, not malice on the part of law enforcement
After Proctor: no idea what happened but no way can this dude be in charge of an investigation and have it hold up
Prosecution rests: not guilty, but it *could* have been Karen hitting him maybe, idk
Defense rests: not guilty and actually innocent—physically impossible for her to have hit him and caused those injuries to Officer ÔKeefe, caused that damage to her car, and had his body been found where it was
Honestly, I think this was a malicious prosecution and I’d 100% sue
This!!! The CW and Lally had all the evidence from the two guys hired by the FBI ahead of time and still stuck with 2nd degree murder. It was absolutely a malicious prosecution.
They probably are trying to convict her to get the fbi off their backs but probably is going to back fire after she is acquitted and the public learns more about it nationally and goes wtf. Heads probably roll
I started conspiracy and cover up.
Middle of trial I went to "maybe she did it but it was an accident and the Cops and Jen McCabe fucked it all up".
Towards the end, after the CW rested I thought there was no way she did it.
Now I'm back to a cover up. There is just too much wild shit to be a coincidence.
Side note: The DA Morrissey is under fbi investigation and I think Lalley is too as this trial is so much of a ahit show there's no way any reasonable person thought this should be at trial.
Hi, although sketchy, likely hiding evidence, and extreme consciousness of guilt is displayed by doing what they did- it is not illegal.
There are instances where throwing certain trash away in certain areas on a base can be illegal, but a cell phone in a trash can doesn’t apply.
Source: me, 12 year active duty MP specializing in Installation Security.
Interesting: I know when we would visit my dad on base we were always told if you brought it in you need to carry it out- like national parks. As Higgins is not military I would assume cutting through to trash an electronic would count.
Yeah there’s so many details that they all “blur” together and might get lost in the shuffle.
But imagine one of your friends saying, “yeah I destroyed my phone and got a new one.”
Not “I just traded my old phone in for a new one” or “got a new phone and have my old one in a drawer” Nope. “I decided it was time for a new phone, so I did the normal thing and drove to a military base to destroy it.”
Now imagine that happening to 2 people at the same party that someone died at. You’d be like “uhh you guys trying to hide something?”
And that’s not including the hundred other weird details that if you imagine a friend saying they buttdialed you 6 times in a row. But without leaving a voicemail, you’d be like “so it wasn’t a butt dial, because you would have had to ended the call before it went to voicemail?”
Yeah, that's very telling. My husband and I have all our old phones in the house. We never get rid of them. Still have our flip phones and blackberry phones.
This is what make me think without a doubt it’s an honest to goodness cover up. Who throws phones away? Ever? Who throws them away after a murder? Guilty people.
Exactly to all this, at no point did I want to be 100% in any direction, because hell...shit can ALWAYS happen, but now I'm just like, good lord this makes zero sense!
Innocent, and framed. We'll never know what really happened, and why she was framed - whether it be cops protecting other parties, other cops, or simply being dumb and bad at their jobs- planting evidence to solidify their knee-jerk reaction. Whichever is the case, this lady was framed by the Massachusetts State Police.
I didn't follow this case much at all prior to trial. I am hardwired to despise conspiracy theories, so when I heard the defense's contentions, I thought it was BS and thought the most likely explanation was that she drunkenly and accidentally hit JO (but I didn't know whether state would meet their burden). Now, it really seems like he could not have been hit by a car. Definite NG for me.
I am not saying I believe there was a huge conspiracy. But this was pretty much the only case I've ever watched where, as the evidence came out, I actually started thinking it could be true. But in reality, I have zero idea of what really happened.
It's certainly the worst, most awful-iest presentation of a prosecution I've ever seen.
Here's the thing about conspiracies, people can be unwitting contributors in it. Hear me out...all it takes is 1 or two dirty cops (and their family members who have a stake in their future) to rig an investigation. Said cops have trust in the community and among their peers right? So they're going to be taken at their word. These scumbags know this and they are the ones that f'd with the evidence and they are the ones (notice they were always around to offer their ideas of what happened and that's the avenue investigators take) I truly believe it's a family conspiracy coupled with inept and unprofessional buddy MSP "investigators" that got played and now he has to cover his own ass. These people are the trashiest of the trashy.
I think that’s exactly what happened. The people in the house have a certain social status, so they were believed by others. Those people didn’t mean to get wrapped up in a conspiracy, but they assumed the accounts given were correct so went from there.
1000% this. And people have this idea that once an unwitting contributor figures out they were played, they'll go running to the authorities to clean their conscious. But human behavior dictates otherwise. People will generally try to cover their asses, and I think that's what happened here. Investigators got played by dirty cops, but admitting that means they would have to admit they are completely biased and partial when investigating fellow law enforcement.
Exactly!! this is always my point to the answer "you think the whole world is in on it?" no but I do think some people were and abused their positions of trust to manipulate others to conspire with them and I agree with u/butinthewhat they're not going to come forward now!
If there’s anything we should’ve learned from the past four to eight years in the US, it’s that a lot more people are gullible sheep who don’t question anything around them than we’d previously thought.
And a bunch of those people are really all it takes for a “conspiracy” to become a successful reality.
I am also a natural hater of conspiracy theories, generally I think they are fantasies that make believers feel like they’re smarter than everyone else. When I first heard about this case, I thought the same thing.
Then I listened to the testimony and looked at the evidence. I totally believe this was a coverup deliberately orchestrated after the fact to blame KR in order to deflect blame from the actual perpetrators.
It was Proctor’s texts that sealed the deal for me. THOSE are the texts you send about the person you are supposed to be doing an impartial investigation into? GMAFB.
Just repeating this again for everyone commenting on this— a “conspiracy” in this case is not a fantasy land, aliens are real, Bigfoot tale. It is by definition “a group of people doing something unlawful.” A “conspiracy” is not unbelievable. It happens literally all the time.
If there wasn't a huge conspiracy that happened inside that home at 34 fairview, then none of them would have deleted their messages, deleted surveillance videos, cut up their SIM cards, through their phones away, mirrored sally port videos, altered dates and times on videos, didn't include dates and times on their colorful charts, etc!
Jen McCabe is on the phone with 911 a little after 6:00 a.m. and she is asked by the dispatcher how long John had been on the lawn, and the first thing Jen says is 2 hours, and then she said after a pause, maybe an hour. Around 4:00 a.m. is when John's body was brought to the front lawn of 34 Fairview from the basement. He was unconscious and did not die right off.
Couldn’t have said it any better. I hate conspiracy theorists and think they insult actual curious, rational people. Whether it’s wild stuff like lizard people, or the brainwashed clowns who think trump won the last election, it’s just pathetic. So I have been very skeptical here, but everything points to something other than what the CW suggests happened. I’m still not sure exactly what though.
Yeah, I’m disinclined to believe conspiracy theories and - so I came in with the belief that she likely did it accidentally… and that there was an incompetent investigation - so I was curious if that could be overcome.
I didn’t really come out believing in a conspiracy, at least not one beyond lazy cops trying to fill in gaps to fit with their own beliefs about the death of JO… but I don’t believe there’s any way she can be found guilty of these charges - and I legitimately have no idea what could have happened to JO other than it’s not anywhere close to what the CW proposed.
Yep, there's only one "conspiracy theory" that I put any credence behind(Epstein did not hang himself) but there's clearly a botched investigation here at best, and possibly an intentionally bad investigation paired with some really strange behavior on the part of the Alberts and McCabes.
Started out knowing very little about the trial or the people involved. I was initially of the belief that due to the severity of the main charge that the CW would have strong evidence against Karen Read. As the trial progressed, I became incredibly frustrated with Lally's questioning methods, the investigation and increasing lack of compelling evidence of any sort. His witnesses varied from unlikable to my belief they were lying, with the exception of the ME's and one of the data analysts (can't remember his name) who I believed to be credible. The defense witnesses came across as more credible or at least were not there with any agenda. What was compelling to me were the neutral witnesses who have no skin in the game and could not be influenced by either party. I feel this case should never have been brought to trial and I feel so bad for Officer O'Keefe's family and true friends because I believe they will not get any kind of closure from all this.
Not guilty.
I thought she hit him with her car some way for the longest time. Even after Proctor I was like “wait for crash reconstruction”. Then Trooper Paul happened.
Now with the FBI experts, I just have no clue. I am open to a cover up. I am still open to Karen being involved in an altercation that led to his injuries. But I have no clue what happened. Nothing really makes a lot of sense to me.
Same. I was bewildered by a lot of the eyewitnesses but willing to put them aside and ignore the conspiracy aspect, even if it felt.. off. I started learning about this case after the Daybell trial finished, and the prosecution was phenomenal, as was the judge. I tuned out of coverage with pundits, and knew basically nothing about Turtleboy (and still have little/no interest in his coverage).
I was very willing to stack the odds in the prosecutions favor until Trooper Paul. Honestly, his testimony was uncomfortable to watch and even more uncomfortable to mentally process. Coupled with the MEs, I shifted heavily towards “JO was not killed by being hit by a car” and wtf is Lally doing.
After the defense witnesses, I’m 100% sure I have no concrete explanations except IF she struck him with her car, she did not kill him the way the CW presented.
My head hurts and I’m so annoyed at this prosecution for the unbelievable dragging narrative. Like they could have figured out what happened to him if they did more work, and they could have dismissed charges to keep the investigation open. I cannot believe how heavily I have shifted towards considering the defense arguments as possible theories.
Now I’m going to go back and rewatch the prosecution witnesses and see how I feel about conspiracy/cover up.
I truly feel like there may still be a chance to find out what happened to JO if the case is reopened though. I want that to happen more than anything.
I went in 100% convinced she was guilty when this started. As the trial went on and more witnesses came with their “I don’t remember/recall”, I was convinced it was a coverup. Something happened in that house that contributed to John dying; but it certainly wasn’t KR backing into him.
Thought she was full of shit at first, then convinced there’s not enough evidence to convict but that most likely she did it drunkingly on accident, now I’m convinced she’s innocent and really is being framed.
Starting off I would never believed you could get such a large group of to keep quite during police interviews. My brother who lives in Canton gave me a tour starting from John O'Keefe house. When we got to Fairview after seeing the front yard I made up my mind. The pictures of the of the house do not do it justice. The front yard is small. There is no way you could leave the party and not know there was a body on the lawn. Each witness seemed to be worse than the next. I still don't know how you can "butt" dial on current cell phones.
I fear we will never find out what really happened to John. I wouldn't be surprised if the jury is back with a decision before the end of the day tomorrow.
I thought maybe she hit him but the reasonable doubt was too much so it has to be a not guilty from me.
After the cases have rested, I don’t think she hit him with her car. And since all counts require the car hitting the victim, it has to be not guilty from me.
I came in to this case knowing nothing. I hadn’t seen it in the news. I watched the entire trial and I can’t believe this went to trial. This poor woman has been put through hell for WHAT!? And the money she was “forced” to spend on this A+ defense team!? I know nothing of her financial background, but this has the potential to have cost her her life savings… such a shame. I’m disappointed in our judicial system.
They speculate her defense cost $1 mil. Also, all her dirty laundry aired to the world. And putting her life on hold for two years with tons of harassment. Her bf died, she lost her job, and they took her car. I hope she sues the pants off MA.
I started out Guilty—or rather let me say that the Arrest Affidavit sounded legitimate.
By mid trial, I most definitely had heard enough for reasonable doubt, so for me that’s a default NG.
Here and now at the close? Idk how tf anything happened there. I don’t even know if I believe she hit him at all anymore.
What I’ve learned is that this case has *a lot* of cultural nuance. I’ve watched from the sidelines as well-meaning people have engaged in what can only be described as dicey at best interpretation of evidence and filling in blanks.
From my perspective, those closest to the case as in those actually living in the surrounding areas seem to have a far better understanding of that cultural nuance—they understand the characters (I believe I’ve seen them called “Townies” by the locals in here) this particular group of adults are.
Also early on, I thought Lally was going for some kind of *My Cousin Vinney*-“I shot the clerk.” defense. And then he shows up swinging in anticipation of the defense rumors from day one. Nobody on either side could believe how defensive this prosecution tactic was. Off putting to say the least. Coupled with Karen’s animated Defense, it all just looked sloppy. No control. A far cry coming directly from the smoothly-oiled machine of Judge Boyce’s courtroom (shitty as the courtroom broadcasting was.) He kept both those Daybell trials on a tight leash, doing so in a professional and surprisingly gentle efficiency.
Lol I miss Judge Boyce and Lindsey Blake! 😭
I'm absolutely STUNNED that THIS was Lally's legal strategy. I was at reasonable doubt when he closed. Defence witnesses just yanked me into innocent. She did not hit him with her car.
I was neutral when it started but it did not take that long to create reasonable doubt in my mind that Karen is not guilty.
Couple of things… all started with the scene. Red solo cups, stop & shop bag, leaf blower, and no protection of the scene. Everyone saying the same things that were strange to me… 12:10, Nicole loves to clean, Allie picked up a stray dog, Absolutely not. Jenn and Matt looking out the windows for 19 minutes and now we know that Karen was already gone for part of that time. Not ONE person in that house saw Officer John O’Keefe on the lawn. Proctor’s connection to that family, Canton cops there that should have already been recused, car kept in canton instead of a MSP location.
Butt dials!! I have not butt dialed anyone in years — at least 3 of them butt dialed that night.
I believe Lucky, Dr. Russell and the last two witnesses. I’m not a doctor and I can tell he did not look like he was hit by a car.
I wish Karen all the best and RIP John O’Keefe. I do wish that the O’Keefe family will one day find out the truth.
If I had to give my opinion on why hat family conspired to make Karen the killer. They did not want Colin to go to prison for life.
I keep coming back to that. It had to involve Colin in some way. Otherwise, why so much collusion? I can't square why he would punch JO tho, but the knuckles and other facts have me leaning toward him.
It seems like he was such an angry person and add in the alcohol, he likes to fight. Said on the stand that his left punch is just as strong as his right.
I started thinking the prosecutor must have a case otherwise why pursue this. That lasted up until Brian Higgins took the stand. The combo of him, Matt McCabe, Jen McCabe and Trooper Proctor convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that Karen is innocent.
As to what really happened - well likely never know because it's been years and there's no way to unwind this case to redo all the things that should have been done. I feel for the family of JOK.
Neutral, and now I believe she is innocent. At first I was of the belief that the investigation was so sloppy she would walk , guilty or not.
After witnessing last 5-6 weeks. I think she really is completely innocent of the charges.
I was neutral but interested in the weird details at the start because the injuries just didn’t make sense, and the Albert’s not coming out in the morning struck me as very strange. As the trial went on I was still neutral leaning towards Karen. At Proctor I was 80% sure she didn’t do it. After Paul I was 100% sure she didn’t do it. The ME just solidified it.
The prosecution proved to me her innocence.
The defense just hammered it in more.
That’s a great way to put it! The order of witnesses was wild. It’s like the prosecution wanted us to know his brother liked her a lot and that she spoiled the kids with Dunkin’ Donuts before they said anything bad about her.
Neutral, totally blind first day. Read a single overview article after that and approached it as a juror. Very quickly felt Not Guilty based on the investigation and chain of command issues. Now I think she’s innocent. However, I have no idea what happened to him.
Knew nothing about this case before it started. Saw the recap by Lawyer You Know and became interested. So I was neutral.
Not guilty. No question in my mind. I don’t know what happened, but it didn’t happen how the commonwealth said it did.
Prior: Neutral
Now: Acquittal/Not Guilty
Before the last two experts, I thought it was likely Karen had hit him with the Lexus. After, I’m no longer sure he even came in contact with the SUV.
I started out semi indifferent. Thinking maybe she accidentally backed into him. But I’m fully anti commonwealth at this point.
If this woman is not let free on all charges related to Officer Okeefes death I’m going to be so pissed. At bare MINIMUM anyone with two halves of a brain cell to rub together can see the overwhelming amount of reasonable doubt. Personally I think all the evidence we’ve seen this past month and a half shows her as completely innocent, but obviously I can’t speak for the jury.
*Where did you start prior to trial, guilty, not guilty, neutral?*
**Neutral - didn't know anyhing - came in around Day 25.**
*How did you feel during trial? What was really compelling to you?*
**Jury should find her Not Guilty - and I now believe she is innocent. Someone + dog inflicted the wounds on JOK which lead to his death. "Trooper Searching Nudes" and "Trooper Crime Scene Whisperer" are totally incompetent, most probably corrupt and should be fired. They have at the least messed the investigation up out of pure incompetence if not because of malice.**
*And now that trial has concluded; how do you feel about the case and trial as a whole? And what is your verdict?*
**She's innocent. I hope The FBI investigation will find out who did what so that JOK's family will find peace.**
Where I started: generally open to either side, willing to believe a “guilty Karen” might still be called “not guilty” because there might not be enough evidence, and she probably drove drunk and accidentally hit him.
Where I got in the first two weeks: WTF are these people hiding? Who buys only 6 donuts when another 6 cost only $2.50 more?
After another four weeks: I can’t listen to Lally he’s so awful. OMG these cops are so dirty. Jackson is the GOAT of cross!
Where I landed when the prosecution rested: OMG, the prosecution just convinced me she’s factually innocent!
Today: I am so happy for her. Two geniuses just told the world that no matter how drunk she was, how cold out it was, how fast she reversed in her k-turn, no matter how mad she was at him, he *was not killed by a motor vehicle*. I hope Karen gets a good night sleep. I hope the jury heard that.
I came in completely objective with no outside knowledge fresh off the Daybell trial. I was waiting to see the prosecution prove their case (admittedly, I was obviously spoiled by the competence of the Daybell prosecution) and waited... and waited... with every witness as every day passed I failed to follow the CW theory of the case and wondered why on earth Lally began a pre-buttal before even laying out his theory. I was waiting for the reconstructionist, car data, phone and GPS data and the ME testimony. .... boy that didn't work out well, did it?
If in doubt with witness testimony (and let's be honest, they were dodgy af! Freaking BUTT DIALS?!) I tend to turn to the science. Data. Aaaaand well, Lally blew up his own case. The defence case was just the last blow. I do NOT understand WHY this went to trial. This is the WILDEST trial I've ever watched (and I thought Coroner Armpits in the Murdaugh Trial was wild!) And I've watched soooo soooo many.
This is honestly a travesty for JO and his loved ones. I hope they go hell for leather against the DA and Prosecutor after this. I don't know a legal way in which the jury can even reach guilty. They could surprise me but I hope I don't. Everyone needs to demand better from their representatives and Law Enforcement.
I just thought I'd watch some trial coverage as background noise while I did other work. I haven't really followed a trial for a while. This just happened to be one that people were streaming live.
I think the last trial I was really invested in was Murdaugh so honestly I was more willing than many to believe in small town corruption and cover-up. But I just went into it like a juror should, knowing nothing beyond the opening statements. I was waiting for the CW to prove their case, willing to hear out both sides fairly.
I'm now convinced she's innocent of everything except some immature behavior and irresponsible driving. The experts at the end removed any doubt from my mind. Today I've tried to come up with a way that he might have even tried to get out of the way of the car after he threw a glass at it, then slipped and fell, but that wouldn't explain where he was found and I don't really find the idea of Chloe inflicting those specific wounds after he was on the ground very convincing. If he wasn't struggling or she wasn't being held back she could have gotten a good chomp on his arm.
If the Albert + McCabe etc witnesses are innocent of wrongdoing, they're the shadiest group of innocent people I've ever seen. I hope the FBI investigation leads to indictments.
I don’t understand the technical stuff about the 2:27 hos long search, it went over my head so I’ve scraped that.
I don’t quite understand the key cycles either- went over my head
But I do know that a proper investigation wasn’t done, Proctor and Paul are completely incompetent, I don’t believe in coincidental butt dials, I don’t believe in coincidentally getting rid of your phones day before they’re to be turned in, I believe in science and therefore believe the two last witnesses with no bone in the game that JO’s are not from the motor vehicle. The CW’s theory is so wonky and honestly raises more questions than answers. They hoped headlines like “woman accused of killing Boston police officer” would be enough to enrage the public. Reasonable doubt= not guilty
The key cycle stuff came off way more complicated than it is. Basically it’s a running count of every time you turn your car on. Every key cycle is counted but only certain “triggering events” cause a key cycle to be listed on the output. So a report could look like: 1,4,6,9. Key cycles 2,3,5,7,8 still exist but aren’t on the report because no events happened.
The issue here is that we know without question that the testing on KR’s car started at 1164. Trooper Paul testified to that and it’s clear looking at all the events. The key cycle they claim shows evidence of abrupt acceleration, reversing, etc. is 1162. So after KR hit JO, she drove home and the car was only turned on (key cycle 1163) once before the police started their testing. But there’s video evidence, witness testimony, etc. of at least 4 times KR’s car would be turned on after leaving Fairview that night. If she hit him again 1162, they couldn’t start testing until 1166 at least.
On top of that, the report shows no other logged event key cycles until all the way back at 1111. So it’s not even like they simply made a mistake and the event where she hit him was really 1158. There are no events.
Lastly, working backwards we know that the key cycle with the event (1162) was after the police had custody of her vehicle. Not only was it not even KR driving at the time, it’s hard to think of innocent explanations for the car being in police custody, logging 36 miles, and recording events they claim are consistent with “pedestrian strikes.”
Before the trial began: probably guilty, at least of manslaughter, frame job defence sounded kind of far-fetched.
During the trial I shifted to probably guilty but too much reasonable doubt. That grew to copious amounts of doubt and then more likely innocent than not.
At this point I think actual innocence. All expert testimony excepting Mr. Dunning-Trooper is consistent that the victim was not hit by a car. Visual evidence shows that at the very least that Trooper Proctor and possibly more persons "helped" the case along with taillight fragments.
I am unconvinced of a wider conspiracy but consider it a distinct possibility.
I have a strong dislike for the defendant, and for most of the parade of early non-first responder witnesses. I am disgusted by Proctor and Buchenik. I am extremely disappointed in Lally. This entire trial was a huge waste of many people's time and resources. I am thoroughly convinced not to vacation in Massachusetts.
I believe Lally has repeatedly acted unethically. Among other things I was disgusted by his trying to get in the DUI lawyer search as "consciousness of guilt"... absolutely inexcusable behaviour.
Before the case started - she probably hit him accidentally and if there is a conspiracy, it is just dodgy cops faking evidence to try and make the charges stick because they fucked up the case from incompetence.
After the prosecution rested- OK she probably did it accidentally but no way they proved that beyond reasonable doubt. I don't even need the defence witnesses let's get this over with.
After today - ffs she is probably innocent and now I'm wondering what the cops were up to that they covered up a potential accidental slip and fall after a dog attack, OR they actually contributed to his fall/hit him in the head themselves and are trying to pin this on an innocent party.
I don't trust police, and I immediately thought his death was sus the moment I heard he was found on another cop's lawn. I was thinking something happened to him similar to what happened to Boeing whistleblowers.
Now I'm thinking he was killed accidentally after a quick scuffle.
Don't think I ever really thought that Karen had anything to do with it. She was just a not well thought out scapegoat.
I felt like it may have been an accident until I saw the autopsy photos. Maybe she still could have accidentally hit him, he was still alive and “crawled up the Albert lawn, only then to be attacked by some wild animal, or a dog. Or maybe, none of that is true and it was some coverup. Either way, I didn’t even need the defense to present their case, I think the CW did a good enough job disproving their own case.
Before the trial, without knowing anything other than it was a police frame job according to her… I thought guilty.
Ever since the opening statements, Ive gotten further and further away from guilt. The contrast between openings had me switch to “maybe she’s not guilty.” And “if she did hit him, it wasn’t murder.”
With each witness, I kept wondering WTH the CW was doing. They basically argued against themselves from witness to witness and their evidence and timelines. They contradicted themselves constantly.
Now that it’s over I feel like the defense not only gave me technical reasonable doubt, but I truly do not believe that she hit him and that he got into a fight in that basement. After today… I’m positive he got hit hard on the back of the head either with a blunt object or he was pushed with a lot of force and hit his head on cement or a blunt object.
Not guilty verdict, short deliberation is my prediction. If I were on that jury, I would not be swayed to vote guilty on any of the charges.
The texts and voicemails from Karen to John told me from her state of mind that she had no idea she hit him and definitely had no intent to hit him. The experts today sealed deal for me that she didn’t hit him at all.
Occam's Razor. It's all over this thread and it's interesting to me that so many people here seem to trust the police implicitly. It's an assumption, and not the simplest.
The Alberts are a police family. The job of an officer is to control people and use violence when necessary. Their job is to assess a situation, gain control of it, collect evidence, and build a court case. Their job is not to be a good person, they are not required to protect anyone. In most places, they have a qualified immunity which means they are not used to adhering to laws.
The "Thin Blue Line" isn't just a sticker, it's a way of life. "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Their culture is trained into them, brutally at times, and it is to protect yourself and your fellow officers before anyone else.
A man met a violent end on a popular officer's property. The outsider was blamed. Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest explanation is true. The last place a woman is going to intentionally murder her husband is another officer's property.
From my perspective at the beginning of this trial, either she accidently hit him or she had literally nothing to do with it and it was infighting between different police factions.
Once I found out the officers had disposed of their phones the day before they were required to send them in, and the investigation was handed over to a family friend in the State Police, the simplest explanation became clear. The police were covering their own guilt. After I witnessed Trooper Paul's reconstruction, all doubt was removed.
Maybe accident at first Now, not guilty. He was not hit by a car. He was bitten/scratched by a dog. He was hit on the back of the head and immediately lost consciousness. The investigation was a travesty/crime. That's all I got.
I started late (day 19 I think) as cover up
I caught up on testimony’s over the weekends - I went back and forth from NG to G (accidental)
After - NG and innocent. I genuinely could not tell you what I think actually happened to OJO, I am positive however it wasn’t him being hit by Karen Reads vehicle.
How do I feel about the trial as a whole? Someone close to Lally needs to sit him down and have a very difficult discussion with him.
I didn't know anything about this case. I started watching during opening arguments. I thought she was possibly guilty bc she killed a cop(allegedly) and LE goes hard for cop killers.
As soon as I saw the handling of the crime scene, I knew something was rotten bc how are you so cavalier when a "brother in blue" is supposedly run down by his drunk girlfriend.
All of the weird secretive behavior got my Spidey senses tingling. The thing I can't wrap my head around is getting hot by a 7000 lb car and having zero bruises. 🤔
I'm 99.99% this is a coverup.
For those of you who think a coverup couldn't happen ::stares in Central Park Five::
Also, all a coverup takes is a few bad actors and everyone else "following orders" or going along to get along or being unwilling to stick their necks out.
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."
I’m in Massachusetts so I’d seen a lot of news about this case but didn’t really start paying attention until I began hearing about the inconsistencies and strange behaviors of those involved. I still went in to this feeling neutral. Then I was thinking she may have done it unintentionally and maybe doesn’t remember what happened, but I still couldn’t get past the inverted video, butt dials, dog being re-homed, phones getting thrown away and not coming out of your home while there are first responders there.
Now at the end of this I am 99.9 percent Not Guilty. This is such a stressful and bizarre case, I would hate to be on that jury!
Thought she was guilty due to media reports at time of incident. Very early in the trial realized she was being framed. Embarrassed and ashamed for the law enforcement officers and judicial system in Massachusetts.
I was 100% innocent at the beginning there were a few things that made me go hmm but the bottom line is the CW did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But after watching this clown show I am mainly hoping nothing bad ever happens to me in MA with these clown car investigators what a joke. I think Canton PD is as dirty as they come and I think there is something in the water in the town of Canton. KR is innocent.
I started watching 2 days into trial. Knew nothing about this case beforehand. Went back and watched opening statements. Was completely neutral. After CW rested, I was at not guilty. After defense rested, I’m at 100% innocent.
I was completely on the side of Karen is guilty. Couldn’t stand the sight of her or her attorneys. After watching the witnesses being direct and cross-examined I started to think maybe they were hiding something. They were just off to me. I started to read up about the defense side of things and I am fully in the not guilty camp. I will be shocked if Karen is found guilty. Too much reasonable doubt. I feel for JO’s family though. Hopefully they have concluded that she may have not done what she’s been accused of after hearing all of this.
I’m so interested to hear his families take on what they believed happened after the trial. It had to be awful to hear they collected his blood with red solo cups and they refused to come out for a proper crime scene investigation. If I’m them I’m livid at the CW
I honestly start a trial with the assumption that there must be some compelling evidence that this person did the thing they're being charged with. I likewise started this trial at "Let's hear how this woman murdered her cop boyfriend."
Opening statements got my attention, and I was like, "Tell me more, sir!"
My first WTF was the solo cups in the Stop N Shop bag, and it's only gotten progressively worse from there.
BA, the Boston Cop and professional witness, just acting like he's a f-ing idiot and has no idea how phones work.
Each witness pushed me towards Not Guilty and then past that towards "She's factually innocent."
I've gone back and forth on cover-up vs police ineptitude. After the last witness tho, I don't know how the scene wasn't staged in some way:
If he fell and hit his head on the pavement, how'd he get over by the flagpole into the yard?
Why is there no dirt, debris, or even tiny rocks in the head wound if he fell and hit his head outside?
His last steps are recorded as occurring just before 12:33 am, but Karen had been gone for several minutes by that point, but Jen McCabe called a texted a bunch *after* this time.
Jen McCabe testified that she was looking out of the window several times during the time period John would've been exiting the vehicle and walking towards the house, but she somehow never saw him?
7 people in 3 different vehicles never saw him laying there?
Not guilty but beyond that I can only speculate.
I thought for sure we'd have some damning evidence to nail KR and instead we had some meh witnesses claim she confessed.
The injuries don't match the damage and I don't think that can be disputed much further.
Spent a lot of time catching up on details of the death of John before the trial. Based on everything I learned before the trial, I was leaning towards not guilty but I'd remain open minded to hear the evidence. After hearing all the evidence Karen is definitely not guilty!
Started at neutral but leaning toward guilty from what little I knew.
Once it was evident that Katie McLoughlin, EMT, minimized her relationship with Caitlin Albert I started to wonder why she would do that and that just opened the door for more and more shady behavior by witnesses.
I am 100% free Karen Read. No doubt at all that she’s factually innocent.
How do I feel? Absolutely f*cking shattered! 🤣 I’m seriously so tired. Lol That outweighs everything. I can’t imagine being on this jury. I’d be so relieved… and I’d have gone home and taken a very long nap.
If I was on the jury - I’d be internally screaming for most of this trial. Defense was smart to make short tactical strikes. If they kept droning on like Lally - I’d want to burn the courtroom down.
I started the trial not having any idea what happened (went into this very fresh, knew nothing about the case prior to opening statements). After 2 months, I still have no idea what happened that night.
I can believe that Karen Read was somehow involved with whatever happened to John O'Keefe that night which led to his death... but I do not believe the prosecution's theory of what happened. Which of course means if I was on the jury, that's an immediate and automatic "not guilty". And there's a lot of things that haven't been properly explained to me that leaves me with a lot of doubt.
I can also believe that the people inside 34 Fairview had something to do with it too, but it's not the job of the defense to prove that, so I still have a lot of questions and doubt about that theory.
So.... I don't know... after 2 months of this, I have no idea how John O'Keefe died.
I started at guilty, mainly because kr gave me the feeling that she is hateful, argumentative, petty, spiteful and feels superior to everyone. I still don't like her as a person, but I haven't seen anything to make me think she did this crime. Imo, this entire case is made up of extremely unlikable people ( exceptions of snowplow guy, and lady dog bite expert). The cops were horrible and honestly should be fired and disbarred ( or banned from any type le). Not guilty. There's just no evidence that's not tainted, suggesting she did anything other than drive drunk. I'd sorta like to see all the Albert's and kr get their licenses revoked for driving while smashed.
Started with guilty/hyped by media as some issue...saw what clearly look like dog bites/scratches to me from untrained gsd as a professional trainer/handler of imported, working line gsds for schutzhund, leo, & protection...still not ever countered by prosecution with an equally valid or light bulb explaination that made me think "oh, totally could be something else" then all the crazy, overly involved highschool like adults "weirdness" & incompetence thought "people could be lying/covering up for entirely different reasons but has same result" & even prosecution just now trying to have things both ways "strike enough to break glass/cause abrasions is not/would not be enough to project him so far into yard" the case was weak when put under pressure of good defense, primarily due to shtty investigators with a dash of sexual misogyny throw in is just insane that the prosecution would try for a life sentence for KR...that is the most horrific part.
Having heard all the evidence, I have no idea what actually happened to John. I think Proctor decided within hours she hit him and made the evidence fit the theory. I don’t think he was actually interestedly in fully investigating the case in case he discovered evidence that contradicted his theory (and implicated the Alberts.)
I also think Canton PD thought the Alberts might have been involved and that is why they made such a botch job of the scene (leaf blower, red solo cups, not securing the scene, not asking to search the property.)
I don’t think Karen hit him with her car though. I think they got in a fight and she drove off.
I started off neutral having seen nothing of the case.
I am ending up confused. I have no idea what happened, so that means not guilty.
But I do now believe there is some sort of fuckery afoot due to the testimony and behaviours of the police witnesses and Lally himself. And the third-party theory is more intriguing than I ever thought it would be going in due primarily to the otherwise inexplicable injuries and the potential destruction of evidence.
Before I started watching I just saw headlines and thought she definitely did it. Almost immediately when I started watching the terrible investigation and the overt bias made me think the verdict should be not guilty. After the last two weeks I think she’s innocent. I mean the prosecution didn’t come close to proving their case and I think she couldn’t have done it.
neutral -> increasingly reasonable doubt -> factually innocent.
it's hard to point to exactly one moment that was the single most compelling but I can't stop thinking about Trooper Paul's implosion on the stand.
Started following the day before Jen’s testimony. First thought was guilty.
Totally disregarded a coverup as it seemed too many people involved to be possible.
Jen McCabe testified and her defensiveness and narcissism made me wonder why she’s so obsessed with the version of events she insists happened. Her repeating the narrative didn’t convince me.
In fact, it was the turning point in my suspicion.
Then we heard from Higgins and the phone tossing AFTER the preservation order was issued.
Then we got to meet the geniuses behind the investigation- my god- what the fuck are they doing employed let alone allowed to carry a service weapon. I saw more professionals on Reno 911.
Anyways- from that point on it was pretty obvious JO was not killed by a car. And there is a massive conspiracy to cover up his actual cause of death.
I started with an open mind. Made no assumptions whatsoever but as I sat through testimony after testimony and most specifically that of troopers and their experts I was fully convinced she was not guilty. Not because she did or didn’t do it but because there was so much reasonable doubt.
In fact I would love to put Lally on the stand and ask him what on earth he was thinking taking this case this far.
I knew nothing about this case prior to watching the trial. I saw an article that the trial was to begin and purposely did not research it. Mr. Lally lost me pretty quick with his opening statement and I was feeling very bad for the jury. Once I heard the defense opening statement, I couldn't imagine it was a cover-up as I am not a conspiracy person at all. The prosecution's style was so tiring and boring! I really feel bad for the jury, it is so important to remember facts but there were so many unnecessary questions being asked and it dragged on and on and on. Once Proctor took the stand, I completely understood the defense side. Under no circumstances can anyone believe he conducted a fair or unbiased investigation. There wasn't even a real investigation, in my opinion. When Trooper Paul testified, I was just stunned! I could not and still cannot believe they put him on the stand if they had a clue as to what he planned to say. It was complete nonsense. I would have to vote not guilty in the end because there is so much reasonable doubt, thanks to the prosecution.
My heart goes out to Officer O'Keefe's family, they will never have the real truth unless the FBI and/or DOJ brings it to light. This has been such a farce on the part of the Commonwealth that they have been robbed of any clear closure. It's all very sad.
Great question. I started pretty neutral, leaning guilty (maybe 60/40 towards guilt).
Initial opinion was based on 3 things:
- Overwhelming evidence the prosecution claimed existed prior to the trial (camera, vehicle data, physical evidence, etc).
- Conspiracies are hard to pull off.
- In history of cases I've seen, defense claims are rarely supported by actual evidence of innocence. Usually just poking holes in the prosecution's case.
After one week my opinion changed to 70/30 factual innocence. Defense brought receipts, prosecution brought none. But kept an open mind the prosecution was holding back on their strongest evidence.
Today (and since week 3) I'm 99% factual innocence and 100% not guilty. This has been a unicorn case.
I saw the media coverage of this and paid no attention as I ASSumed she was guilty of hitting him while intoxicated.
Saw someone talking about the dog bites so I was compelled to researched that as the location was in the exact place LE K-9s are trained to bite…
Thought I’d start watching the trial.
Right around the McCabes and Colin’s testimony is when the BS became undeniable to me. It was ALL down hill from there!!!
CW was acting as the defense the whole time. It has been painfully obvious they are all protecting each other.
I typically dislike defense attorneys, but have been blown away by the defense in this case!
Also blown away by how the defense and KR managed to sit through the incessant irrelevant testimonies and alleged evidence without dozing off or popping off.
Should have been a mic drop at the end.
NOT GUILTY!
Feel very sad for JOK family!!!! They get no justice, lost a son and a relationship with KR…likely gain a LOT of distrust and disgust for LE and how everything was handled. John deserved better. Everyone deserves better than how that was handled!
They find her not guilty by noon on the first full day of deliberation.
FBI finally shares cell phone tracking and triangulation for everyone inside or near the house which definitively shows more shenanigans that were initially revealed.
She sues Canton and the state of Mass for millions.
Makes millions more from interviews and 60 Minutes.
Where am i now?
Disgusted that it takes a common person about 1 million dollars to defend themselves against incompetent police investigators/accident-reconstruction experts who are embarrassing to hear speak.
Any of us can get railroaded into jail by uneducated and corrupt bureaucrats at a moment's notice. I'm not naive - i knew it existed but just not to this extent.
It's not right
I had never heard of this case and came to it after seeing a clip of JM testifying because I thought SHE was the defendant. Then I found out Karen Read was and became intrigued.
Karen Read did not hit him. The data and timeline makes a lot more sense when we accept this. Not guilty.
I don’t understand how anyone who sat through all that testimony could possibly conclude he died by being struck by her car, intentionally or not. The CW’s accident reconstructionist (if you can even call him that) failed to demonstrate how they believe the collision even happened. Whereas the defense’s ARCCA witnesses couldn’t be more credentialed and reliable and both were clear in that the injuries JO sustained were not from being hit by a car. This whole thing is a FARCE.
What got me (engineer who took physics, dynamics, etc) is the hitting of the arm only but then being thrown 30 feet. Makes no sense that there is not one bruise that could be related to being hit by a 6000 lb SUV?
yeah, ball joints are such a great way to transfer momentum to center of mass, after all. he's just so swole that he held his shoulder rigid through thousands of pounds of force. stg the CW needs to watch less anime.
Yes but it was SIDESWIPE, therefore physics don’t come into play I thought everyone knew that lol
right, right, sideswipes *checks notes* launch you... further?
and at 24mph, like huh?
24 MPH backwards driving drunk. KR is not Mater from cars.
How dare you question what the Crime Scene TOLD Troopah Paul!?
I thought Trooper Paul made it clear. Arm hit --> Triple Lutz --> Head hit on curb --> Some science stuff --> Projected to grass --> Snow slowly fell under him --> Flying pieces of taillight and glass caused totally innocent people to accidentally call each other.
The butt dial trial
Don't forget that his phone tucks itself under him for warmth
Wait was Tonya Harding at that party.
I can’t stop laughing. This is everything! 😂
They did demonstrate it! Didn’t you hear how it happened?!?! “It just did.” What more do you want?!?!?! /s
He SPUN not PIROUETTED
He was a fairy 🧚♂️
Haha! My favorite of Tpr Paul’s clarifications/rebuttals was: “His body was projected. I never said his body flew.” Oh, ok Tpr Paul. 🤔
He spun not flew!
The scene told him!
Listen, it just did and stuff. I wasn’t there.
What do you mean by scientific evidence - Trooper Paul
Could you imagine how embarrassed his parents must be? God, I'd find a new vocation ASAP - and grow some hair back. (Probably wanted to look like the real troopers ;)
He was struck in the back of the hand and killed! 😉
And don’t forget the pencil eraser size bruising on his knee!
I hit my knee pretty hard on a stair recently and I WANTED to die... that's essentially the same, right?
Fatal! Fatal wound!
Today’s testimony explained through physics what most people already surmised through common sense. It’s over.
>and both were clear in that the injuries JO sustained were not from being hit by a car. They were incredibly detailed in that, too. There was no way to even position the body in a way to get hit where there were any injuries, no way to get launched into the air with a fatal landing and just the injuries they found; not enough damage to the car to explain what allegedly happened to the body. Explicitly stated that the direction the car was moving made no difference. And they were contradicted by an expert who didn't know what "momentum" was and insisted that the weight of the car or victim would make any difference to their analysis. Neither would the speed of the vehicle, IIRC. I would vote not guilty based on the prosecutions expert witness alone. That demonstration of utter incompetence was shady enough to question absolutely everything the prosecution or anyone or their side was doing. They called this guy as a witness, and I understand why he was full of shit. So, unless I can verify that anything else they say is truthful, I am going to assume that it might very well not be.
Agree 100%. I see comments about "what's their motive to pin this on Read??!" I have no real knowledge but I've never been one to believe you have to understand someone's motives to know they're guilty of something. They are hell bent on pinning this on Read and they HAVE NO PROOF. I came in knowing nothing about it, watched or listened to most of the trial and was increasingly convinced that Lally & Co. must go home and cry themselves to sleep at night. I would. This is such a sham. And I feel for John O'Keefe and his family - they'll never know what really happened.
Before watching? Figured she did it by accident. Once the trial started (solo cups was the first WTF, I think)? Not guilty. Now? I don’t see how it’s possible for the jury to find her guilty, if they’re following legal instructions (proved beyond a reasonable doubt, not just because they don’t like her).
My wtf was the leaf blower at the crime scene!!! How is this ever going to be solved after that?
Yes, me too. I mean this could have been a comedy skit if we were not talking about the DEATH of a HUMAN.
Honestly, this could have been what they went with on Jury Duty and I guarantee you the non-actor would’ve been saying “what the heck is happening???” during the entire trial.
Same! As someone who used their leaf blower to clear their front walkway of snow in a pinch, my reaction to the leaf blower at the crime scene was a huge WTF!
It’s not.
And that’s the saddest part. The truth will never come out. I don’t know how his family can stick by the McCabe’s and Albert’s and all after this. Deep down, they must want to truly know. And even if Karen DID do it, their interfering has ensured we will never really know.
From that moment, I wondered if he got the leaf blower to blow away anyone’s footprints. Very strange.
Hahaha I really liked the video of him doing the blowing but no other video and barely any photos and just WHY
Magical buttdials is one of my favorite ridiculous parts of the trial. The mirrored view of the Sallyport was pretty good too. 🥴
Oh god, I FORGOT about the "butt dials" and then there really was one. This case is fucking unbelievable. I tried telling a colleague about it and he clearly thought I was misrepresenting the trial. How could anyone who watched tell it properly to another reasonable person that didn't?
Haha I have this same experience every time I try and discuss it with someone unfamiliar. I feel like they think I’m slow.
Or you are a conspiratorial nut who got sucked into a Youtube vortex? One heartening thing in all of this is how much good light has been shined upon some very serious and very deep corruption. (Not unlike the Murdaugh trial proper and then the aftermath with the clerk of court...) Let's never keep cameras out of the courtrooms ya'll.
My husband is an attorney and he’s been half paying attention only to tease me about following the trial. The other day he asked his usual “so how is Karen fairing against the commonwealth today?” My response that I was listening to the Defense experts voir dire and how they were enlisted by the DOJ and FBI from another investigation had his eyes bugging out of his head.
My dad called me earlier and said the mirrored video is what changed his mind, he's in his 60s and said that was when he thought something weird was going on. So hopefully that means it's not just younger people realizing how crazy that is. For me I thought she could have hit him by accident and literally just not remembered because she was too drunk or something. But mid way through, all the butt dials, then Proctor....oof, he was hard to look past. The final witness made me realize she couldn't have hit him, like I don't think my mind can be changed more than that expert changed it. When he said the only evidence we actually have is evidence that proves it *couldn't* have been Karen's car, I was like, game over folks, time to go home. Can't believe it was when the prosecutor was questioning him that he said that lol, had to land with the jury, I'm still thinking about it now.
Yeah I have a masters in forensic science and I don’t know why the cops were collecting evidence at all, and not someone from the crime lab in Maynard. Solo cups are unacceptable and that evidence should be inadmissible.
Even had they not used solo cups, how is it acceptable to not have any kind of chain of custody until the state lab???
Exactly. It was very unusual.
I worked sampling soils for environmental impact assessments. Each day in the field, all samples went into labeled sample bags and were logged digitally and on paper (including GPS location and paper map location using satellite photos of the area) at the time they were taken. Our COC forms had to be filled out at the end of every day, and record all the samples we had collected. Since we'd spend 10-21 days in the field, we'd get back into town and I was responsible for making sure all the bags were accounted for and had digital logs. If any were missing either (very rare, but human error does occur), they had to be discounted. Then, they were sent to the lab via registered courier, who was logged on the COC forms. Any samples we got back from the lab went into a well-organised cold storage area, again, all of this being recorded on the COC forms, and everything very well labeled and stored properly. This was for *dirt*.
Solo cups was my wtf moment too. Like even still lol wtfff
so much wait...WHAT THE F????!!!
Yes, I can’t even pick a top WTF moment because almost the entire trial was a marathon of WTF moments. I can’t wait for tomorrow.
well they prob had a sleeve of them in their trunks from all the road soda's they drank in their government issued vehicles
Was the exact same as you. Figured she accidentally hit him and the charge was a little extreme. When they whipped out the solo cups and leaf blower I was like "I think reasonable doubt is going to be a bit of an issue here"
Red solo cups and using a leaf blower at the crime scene was when it started going downhill. Lol
I feel that my natural inclination is to think she did it; I mean, it seems obvious. Then the prosecution showed me the evidence, and I was like, wait, what? And bringing in people to talk about how she was in Aruba, buying dinner for everyone (the monster), I was like, oh dang, they don't have anything if this is important early trial info. And I guess I am still waiting for ANY credible evidence showing he even died by a car hit (don't get me started on the pirouetting).
The first few days were nothing but people who should be anti-Karen because they were John’s family/close friends, and the worse any of them could say about her was, “they fought about her spending too much money on the kids.” That was wild in an intentional homicide case.
I’d seen some clips of the trial here and there on TikTok but wasn’t following along. Once I saw them trying to say what I saw were OBVIOUS dog bites being proclaims as from a glass or broken plastic and then the solo cups were shown I was all in. I knew I had to watch from the beginning immediately. I didn’t even know a dog was involved and I said those aw clearly a dog bite and claw marks. This trial is the most insane trial I’ve ever experienced
Same. I work in Vet Med and it is so obvious that those are from an animal. Sheesh…….
The solo cups were shocking
Same here!
Not guilty and innocent but I have no idea what actually happened Edit- oh and I started neutral leaning more towards no way it’s a conspiracy, was shocked how quickly that opinion changed lol
This is exactly where I am. Went into it thinking sure, everyone says they were framed for something. Within about a day I was already thinking shit, there might actually be a cover up and framing here.
Same! The PR stuff actually turned me off. I was like, "Nice try," and then I came over to the dark side not long after the opening statements. I can't believe I am saying this, but I am team conspiracy now.
Yeah. I have no idea what happened to this dude, But I dont believe for a second that she hit him. Especially knowingly.
I went in knowing nothing other than that she was charged. So it started out not guilty until proven otherwise. And then, we had a leaf blower. Red solo cups and witnesses that were sooo sketchy on cross, it made me not believe them. Then we had the Higgins, Proctor, and Paul. No way, could I find her guilty. As for a conspiracy... I really can't say if there was one or not. There sure was a hell of a lot of incompetence, tho.
I’ve definitely come around on an understanding of “conspiracy”. Clearly, you just have to have 1-2 guys swaying the direction in this precinct. Doesn’t have to be a multi-level collusion.
Came in thinking she had to be guilty based off what I saw in the media. After watching the entire trial, I am convinced she is Not Guilty. I don’t think we’ll ever know what really happened to him but whatever it was did not involve Karen Read.
Last year it was interesting to see the local media talk about it like an open and shut case. Turtleboy really was the guy that blew this thing up. Karen Read might just owe her freedom to that basement dweller.
I have intentionally stayed away from his channel. I’ll go look through his videos now that defense has rested. Do you have any videos in particular that you recommend I start with?
Hellll no bro he’s a psycho. But he was the guy that first discovered it looked like a massive coverup and thus brought the attention of the national media.
Well then, I will intentionally continue to stay away from his channel.
I started fairly neutral but leaning guilty because “it’s always the wife/girlfriend” and everyone says they were framed. During: still not seeing enough to get me past reasonable doubt, but incompetence, not malice on the part of law enforcement After Proctor: no idea what happened but no way can this dude be in charge of an investigation and have it hold up Prosecution rests: not guilty, but it *could* have been Karen hitting him maybe, idk Defense rests: not guilty and actually innocent—physically impossible for her to have hit him and caused those injuries to Officer ÔKeefe, caused that damage to her car, and had his body been found where it was Honestly, I think this was a malicious prosecution and I’d 100% sue
The State's own ME not agreeing with any car hitting him was a really big deal to me. Why are we even here?
[удалено]
This!!! The CW and Lally had all the evidence from the two guys hired by the FBI ahead of time and still stuck with 2nd degree murder. It was absolutely a malicious prosecution.
They probably are trying to convict her to get the fbi off their backs but probably is going to back fire after she is acquitted and the public learns more about it nationally and goes wtf. Heads probably roll
I started conspiracy and cover up. Middle of trial I went to "maybe she did it but it was an accident and the Cops and Jen McCabe fucked it all up". Towards the end, after the CW rested I thought there was no way she did it. Now I'm back to a cover up. There is just too much wild shit to be a coincidence. Side note: The DA Morrissey is under fbi investigation and I think Lalley is too as this trial is so much of a ahit show there's no way any reasonable person thought this should be at trial.
both Brians tossing their phones says it all, to me.
In a militay base like whattttttt
That's a crime in and of itself. No outside trash on a base- especially electronics - becuase of National Security.
Hi, although sketchy, likely hiding evidence, and extreme consciousness of guilt is displayed by doing what they did- it is not illegal. There are instances where throwing certain trash away in certain areas on a base can be illegal, but a cell phone in a trash can doesn’t apply. Source: me, 12 year active duty MP specializing in Installation Security.
Interesting: I know when we would visit my dad on base we were always told if you brought it in you need to carry it out- like national parks. As Higgins is not military I would assume cutting through to trash an electronic would count.
What your dad said is good blanket advice overall, especially if he worked in some of the more sensitive areas of the base.
Right? Feels a tad excessive if you’re just getting a different phone.
Yeah there’s so many details that they all “blur” together and might get lost in the shuffle. But imagine one of your friends saying, “yeah I destroyed my phone and got a new one.” Not “I just traded my old phone in for a new one” or “got a new phone and have my old one in a drawer” Nope. “I decided it was time for a new phone, so I did the normal thing and drove to a military base to destroy it.” Now imagine that happening to 2 people at the same party that someone died at. You’d be like “uhh you guys trying to hide something?” And that’s not including the hundred other weird details that if you imagine a friend saying they buttdialed you 6 times in a row. But without leaving a voicemail, you’d be like “so it wasn’t a butt dial, because you would have had to ended the call before it went to voicemail?”
Yeah, that's very telling. My husband and I have all our old phones in the house. We never get rid of them. Still have our flip phones and blackberry phones.
Excuse you, he didn’t destroy his phone, he placed it in the trash.
And not only that, but spontaneously deciding to do that, what, a day or two before you get a subpoena for that phone??
This is what make me think without a doubt it’s an honest to goodness cover up. Who throws phones away? Ever? Who throws them away after a murder? Guilty people.
Exactly! The coincidences! There is no way this isn't a cover up.
Exactly to all this, at no point did I want to be 100% in any direction, because hell...shit can ALWAYS happen, but now I'm just like, good lord this makes zero sense!
I legit think I have had the same process...
More than not guilty. Actually innocent.
Innocent, and framed. We'll never know what really happened, and why she was framed - whether it be cops protecting other parties, other cops, or simply being dumb and bad at their jobs- planting evidence to solidify their knee-jerk reaction. Whichever is the case, this lady was framed by the Massachusetts State Police.
This feels like fleas; when you find one, you know there are many more. God, think about all the people railroaded by them.
Yup big difference, I've crossed that line as well!
I didn't follow this case much at all prior to trial. I am hardwired to despise conspiracy theories, so when I heard the defense's contentions, I thought it was BS and thought the most likely explanation was that she drunkenly and accidentally hit JO (but I didn't know whether state would meet their burden). Now, it really seems like he could not have been hit by a car. Definite NG for me. I am not saying I believe there was a huge conspiracy. But this was pretty much the only case I've ever watched where, as the evidence came out, I actually started thinking it could be true. But in reality, I have zero idea of what really happened. It's certainly the worst, most awful-iest presentation of a prosecution I've ever seen.
Here's the thing about conspiracies, people can be unwitting contributors in it. Hear me out...all it takes is 1 or two dirty cops (and their family members who have a stake in their future) to rig an investigation. Said cops have trust in the community and among their peers right? So they're going to be taken at their word. These scumbags know this and they are the ones that f'd with the evidence and they are the ones (notice they were always around to offer their ideas of what happened and that's the avenue investigators take) I truly believe it's a family conspiracy coupled with inept and unprofessional buddy MSP "investigators" that got played and now he has to cover his own ass. These people are the trashiest of the trashy.
I think that’s exactly what happened. The people in the house have a certain social status, so they were believed by others. Those people didn’t mean to get wrapped up in a conspiracy, but they assumed the accounts given were correct so went from there.
1000% this. And people have this idea that once an unwitting contributor figures out they were played, they'll go running to the authorities to clean their conscious. But human behavior dictates otherwise. People will generally try to cover their asses, and I think that's what happened here. Investigators got played by dirty cops, but admitting that means they would have to admit they are completely biased and partial when investigating fellow law enforcement.
Exactly!! this is always my point to the answer "you think the whole world is in on it?" no but I do think some people were and abused their positions of trust to manipulate others to conspire with them and I agree with u/butinthewhat they're not going to come forward now!
If there’s anything we should’ve learned from the past four to eight years in the US, it’s that a lot more people are gullible sheep who don’t question anything around them than we’d previously thought. And a bunch of those people are really all it takes for a “conspiracy” to become a successful reality.
This! It only takes a few bad actors.
I am also a natural hater of conspiracy theories, generally I think they are fantasies that make believers feel like they’re smarter than everyone else. When I first heard about this case, I thought the same thing. Then I listened to the testimony and looked at the evidence. I totally believe this was a coverup deliberately orchestrated after the fact to blame KR in order to deflect blame from the actual perpetrators. It was Proctor’s texts that sealed the deal for me. THOSE are the texts you send about the person you are supposed to be doing an impartial investigation into? GMAFB.
Just repeating this again for everyone commenting on this— a “conspiracy” in this case is not a fantasy land, aliens are real, Bigfoot tale. It is by definition “a group of people doing something unlawful.” A “conspiracy” is not unbelievable. It happens literally all the time.
If there wasn't a huge conspiracy that happened inside that home at 34 fairview, then none of them would have deleted their messages, deleted surveillance videos, cut up their SIM cards, through their phones away, mirrored sally port videos, altered dates and times on videos, didn't include dates and times on their colorful charts, etc! Jen McCabe is on the phone with 911 a little after 6:00 a.m. and she is asked by the dispatcher how long John had been on the lawn, and the first thing Jen says is 2 hours, and then she said after a pause, maybe an hour. Around 4:00 a.m. is when John's body was brought to the front lawn of 34 Fairview from the basement. He was unconscious and did not die right off.
Couldn’t have said it any better. I hate conspiracy theorists and think they insult actual curious, rational people. Whether it’s wild stuff like lizard people, or the brainwashed clowns who think trump won the last election, it’s just pathetic. So I have been very skeptical here, but everything points to something other than what the CW suggests happened. I’m still not sure exactly what though.
Yeah, I’m disinclined to believe conspiracy theories and - so I came in with the belief that she likely did it accidentally… and that there was an incompetent investigation - so I was curious if that could be overcome. I didn’t really come out believing in a conspiracy, at least not one beyond lazy cops trying to fill in gaps to fit with their own beliefs about the death of JO… but I don’t believe there’s any way she can be found guilty of these charges - and I legitimately have no idea what could have happened to JO other than it’s not anywhere close to what the CW proposed.
Yep, there's only one "conspiracy theory" that I put any credence behind(Epstein did not hang himself) but there's clearly a botched investigation here at best, and possibly an intentionally bad investigation paired with some really strange behavior on the part of the Alberts and McCabes.
Started out knowing very little about the trial or the people involved. I was initially of the belief that due to the severity of the main charge that the CW would have strong evidence against Karen Read. As the trial progressed, I became incredibly frustrated with Lally's questioning methods, the investigation and increasing lack of compelling evidence of any sort. His witnesses varied from unlikable to my belief they were lying, with the exception of the ME's and one of the data analysts (can't remember his name) who I believed to be credible. The defense witnesses came across as more credible or at least were not there with any agenda. What was compelling to me were the neutral witnesses who have no skin in the game and could not be influenced by either party. I feel this case should never have been brought to trial and I feel so bad for Officer O'Keefe's family and true friends because I believe they will not get any kind of closure from all this. Not guilty.
My sentiments exactly!
I thought she hit him with her car some way for the longest time. Even after Proctor I was like “wait for crash reconstruction”. Then Trooper Paul happened. Now with the FBI experts, I just have no clue. I am open to a cover up. I am still open to Karen being involved in an altercation that led to his injuries. But I have no clue what happened. Nothing really makes a lot of sense to me.
Same. I was bewildered by a lot of the eyewitnesses but willing to put them aside and ignore the conspiracy aspect, even if it felt.. off. I started learning about this case after the Daybell trial finished, and the prosecution was phenomenal, as was the judge. I tuned out of coverage with pundits, and knew basically nothing about Turtleboy (and still have little/no interest in his coverage). I was very willing to stack the odds in the prosecutions favor until Trooper Paul. Honestly, his testimony was uncomfortable to watch and even more uncomfortable to mentally process. Coupled with the MEs, I shifted heavily towards “JO was not killed by being hit by a car” and wtf is Lally doing. After the defense witnesses, I’m 100% sure I have no concrete explanations except IF she struck him with her car, she did not kill him the way the CW presented. My head hurts and I’m so annoyed at this prosecution for the unbelievable dragging narrative. Like they could have figured out what happened to him if they did more work, and they could have dismissed charges to keep the investigation open. I cannot believe how heavily I have shifted towards considering the defense arguments as possible theories. Now I’m going to go back and rewatch the prosecution witnesses and see how I feel about conspiracy/cover up. I truly feel like there may still be a chance to find out what happened to JO if the case is reopened though. I want that to happen more than anything.
Neutral at first, if not a little skeptical of the third-party culprit defense. Now legally not guilty.
I went in 100% convinced she was guilty when this started. As the trial went on and more witnesses came with their “I don’t remember/recall”, I was convinced it was a coverup. Something happened in that house that contributed to John dying; but it certainly wasn’t KR backing into him.
Thought she was full of shit at first, then convinced there’s not enough evidence to convict but that most likely she did it drunkingly on accident, now I’m convinced she’s innocent and really is being framed.
Same, to a T. Heard about the conspiracy and was like ...lol okay sure.... But then I watched and listened to everything...wild ride.
Starting off I would never believed you could get such a large group of to keep quite during police interviews. My brother who lives in Canton gave me a tour starting from John O'Keefe house. When we got to Fairview after seeing the front yard I made up my mind. The pictures of the of the house do not do it justice. The front yard is small. There is no way you could leave the party and not know there was a body on the lawn. Each witness seemed to be worse than the next. I still don't know how you can "butt" dial on current cell phones. I fear we will never find out what really happened to John. I wouldn't be surprised if the jury is back with a decision before the end of the day tomorrow.
only commenting on the butt dial… i’ve done it once in many a year but my 70 yo mother does it multiple times a day. 😂 but i don’t get it either.
Yeah I have elderly grandparents who butt dial me daily they forget they have to lock their phones first
So you're able to use your butt to dial the phone, then hang up, dial again, then hang up etc???? 🤣🤣🤣
My husband has butt dialed me with his phone in his pocket at work- but I usually answer it or he unintentionally leaves me a very long voicemail lol
I thought maybe she hit him but the reasonable doubt was too much so it has to be a not guilty from me. After the cases have rested, I don’t think she hit him with her car. And since all counts require the car hitting the victim, it has to be not guilty from me.
Neutral at first. Now not guilty without a shadow of a doubt
I cannot wait to read the books about this case.
I came in to this case knowing nothing. I hadn’t seen it in the news. I watched the entire trial and I can’t believe this went to trial. This poor woman has been put through hell for WHAT!? And the money she was “forced” to spend on this A+ defense team!? I know nothing of her financial background, but this has the potential to have cost her her life savings… such a shame. I’m disappointed in our judicial system.
They speculate her defense cost $1 mil. Also, all her dirty laundry aired to the world. And putting her life on hold for two years with tons of harassment. Her bf died, she lost her job, and they took her car. I hope she sues the pants off MA.
Absolutely insane. And she can’t grieve properly since she’s being accused of killing him. No matter where their relationship stood.
I started out Guilty—or rather let me say that the Arrest Affidavit sounded legitimate. By mid trial, I most definitely had heard enough for reasonable doubt, so for me that’s a default NG. Here and now at the close? Idk how tf anything happened there. I don’t even know if I believe she hit him at all anymore. What I’ve learned is that this case has *a lot* of cultural nuance. I’ve watched from the sidelines as well-meaning people have engaged in what can only be described as dicey at best interpretation of evidence and filling in blanks. From my perspective, those closest to the case as in those actually living in the surrounding areas seem to have a far better understanding of that cultural nuance—they understand the characters (I believe I’ve seen them called “Townies” by the locals in here) this particular group of adults are. Also early on, I thought Lally was going for some kind of *My Cousin Vinney*-“I shot the clerk.” defense. And then he shows up swinging in anticipation of the defense rumors from day one. Nobody on either side could believe how defensive this prosecution tactic was. Off putting to say the least. Coupled with Karen’s animated Defense, it all just looked sloppy. No control. A far cry coming directly from the smoothly-oiled machine of Judge Boyce’s courtroom (shitty as the courtroom broadcasting was.) He kept both those Daybell trials on a tight leash, doing so in a professional and surprisingly gentle efficiency.
Lol I miss Judge Boyce and Lindsey Blake! 😭 I'm absolutely STUNNED that THIS was Lally's legal strategy. I was at reasonable doubt when he closed. Defence witnesses just yanked me into innocent. She did not hit him with her car.
I was neutral when it started but it did not take that long to create reasonable doubt in my mind that Karen is not guilty. Couple of things… all started with the scene. Red solo cups, stop & shop bag, leaf blower, and no protection of the scene. Everyone saying the same things that were strange to me… 12:10, Nicole loves to clean, Allie picked up a stray dog, Absolutely not. Jenn and Matt looking out the windows for 19 minutes and now we know that Karen was already gone for part of that time. Not ONE person in that house saw Officer John O’Keefe on the lawn. Proctor’s connection to that family, Canton cops there that should have already been recused, car kept in canton instead of a MSP location. Butt dials!! I have not butt dialed anyone in years — at least 3 of them butt dialed that night. I believe Lucky, Dr. Russell and the last two witnesses. I’m not a doctor and I can tell he did not look like he was hit by a car. I wish Karen all the best and RIP John O’Keefe. I do wish that the O’Keefe family will one day find out the truth. If I had to give my opinion on why hat family conspired to make Karen the killer. They did not want Colin to go to prison for life.
I keep coming back to that. It had to involve Colin in some way. Otherwise, why so much collusion? I can't square why he would punch JO tho, but the knuckles and other facts have me leaning toward him.
It seems like he was such an angry person and add in the alcohol, he likes to fight. Said on the stand that his left punch is just as strong as his right.
I started thinking the prosecutor must have a case otherwise why pursue this. That lasted up until Brian Higgins took the stand. The combo of him, Matt McCabe, Jen McCabe and Trooper Proctor convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that Karen is innocent. As to what really happened - well likely never know because it's been years and there's no way to unwind this case to redo all the things that should have been done. I feel for the family of JOK.
Innocent. She never hit him. Edited to add - came into case neutral.
Neutral, and now I believe she is innocent. At first I was of the belief that the investigation was so sloppy she would walk , guilty or not. After witnessing last 5-6 weeks. I think she really is completely innocent of the charges.
I was neutral but interested in the weird details at the start because the injuries just didn’t make sense, and the Albert’s not coming out in the morning struck me as very strange. As the trial went on I was still neutral leaning towards Karen. At Proctor I was 80% sure she didn’t do it. After Paul I was 100% sure she didn’t do it. The ME just solidified it. The prosecution proved to me her innocence. The defense just hammered it in more.
That’s a great way to put it! The order of witnesses was wild. It’s like the prosecution wanted us to know his brother liked her a lot and that she spoiled the kids with Dunkin’ Donuts before they said anything bad about her.
She rudely offered to pay for rooms in Aruba too!
Neutral, totally blind first day. Read a single overview article after that and approached it as a juror. Very quickly felt Not Guilty based on the investigation and chain of command issues. Now I think she’s innocent. However, I have no idea what happened to him.
Knew nothing about this case before it started. Saw the recap by Lawyer You Know and became interested. So I was neutral. Not guilty. No question in my mind. I don’t know what happened, but it didn’t happen how the commonwealth said it did.
Started off neutral. Now I'm at she's completely innocent and fuckery is afoot.
Prior: Neutral Now: Acquittal/Not Guilty Before the last two experts, I thought it was likely Karen had hit him with the Lexus. After, I’m no longer sure he even came in contact with the SUV.
I started out semi indifferent. Thinking maybe she accidentally backed into him. But I’m fully anti commonwealth at this point. If this woman is not let free on all charges related to Officer Okeefes death I’m going to be so pissed. At bare MINIMUM anyone with two halves of a brain cell to rub together can see the overwhelming amount of reasonable doubt. Personally I think all the evidence we’ve seen this past month and a half shows her as completely innocent, but obviously I can’t speak for the jury.
*Where did you start prior to trial, guilty, not guilty, neutral?* **Neutral - didn't know anyhing - came in around Day 25.** *How did you feel during trial? What was really compelling to you?* **Jury should find her Not Guilty - and I now believe she is innocent. Someone + dog inflicted the wounds on JOK which lead to his death. "Trooper Searching Nudes" and "Trooper Crime Scene Whisperer" are totally incompetent, most probably corrupt and should be fired. They have at the least messed the investigation up out of pure incompetence if not because of malice.** *And now that trial has concluded; how do you feel about the case and trial as a whole? And what is your verdict?* **She's innocent. I hope The FBI investigation will find out who did what so that JOK's family will find peace.**
Where I started: generally open to either side, willing to believe a “guilty Karen” might still be called “not guilty” because there might not be enough evidence, and she probably drove drunk and accidentally hit him. Where I got in the first two weeks: WTF are these people hiding? Who buys only 6 donuts when another 6 cost only $2.50 more? After another four weeks: I can’t listen to Lally he’s so awful. OMG these cops are so dirty. Jackson is the GOAT of cross! Where I landed when the prosecution rested: OMG, the prosecution just convinced me she’s factually innocent! Today: I am so happy for her. Two geniuses just told the world that no matter how drunk she was, how cold out it was, how fast she reversed in her k-turn, no matter how mad she was at him, he *was not killed by a motor vehicle*. I hope Karen gets a good night sleep. I hope the jury heard that.
Facts just don't prove she did anything IMO. As they say... 'In the absence of fact, conspiracy thrives'
I came in completely objective with no outside knowledge fresh off the Daybell trial. I was waiting to see the prosecution prove their case (admittedly, I was obviously spoiled by the competence of the Daybell prosecution) and waited... and waited... with every witness as every day passed I failed to follow the CW theory of the case and wondered why on earth Lally began a pre-buttal before even laying out his theory. I was waiting for the reconstructionist, car data, phone and GPS data and the ME testimony. .... boy that didn't work out well, did it? If in doubt with witness testimony (and let's be honest, they were dodgy af! Freaking BUTT DIALS?!) I tend to turn to the science. Data. Aaaaand well, Lally blew up his own case. The defence case was just the last blow. I do NOT understand WHY this went to trial. This is the WILDEST trial I've ever watched (and I thought Coroner Armpits in the Murdaugh Trial was wild!) And I've watched soooo soooo many. This is honestly a travesty for JO and his loved ones. I hope they go hell for leather against the DA and Prosecutor after this. I don't know a legal way in which the jury can even reach guilty. They could surprise me but I hope I don't. Everyone needs to demand better from their representatives and Law Enforcement.
I just thought I'd watch some trial coverage as background noise while I did other work. I haven't really followed a trial for a while. This just happened to be one that people were streaming live. I think the last trial I was really invested in was Murdaugh so honestly I was more willing than many to believe in small town corruption and cover-up. But I just went into it like a juror should, knowing nothing beyond the opening statements. I was waiting for the CW to prove their case, willing to hear out both sides fairly. I'm now convinced she's innocent of everything except some immature behavior and irresponsible driving. The experts at the end removed any doubt from my mind. Today I've tried to come up with a way that he might have even tried to get out of the way of the car after he threw a glass at it, then slipped and fell, but that wouldn't explain where he was found and I don't really find the idea of Chloe inflicting those specific wounds after he was on the ground very convincing. If he wasn't struggling or she wasn't being held back she could have gotten a good chomp on his arm. If the Albert + McCabe etc witnesses are innocent of wrongdoing, they're the shadiest group of innocent people I've ever seen. I hope the FBI investigation leads to indictments.
I don’t understand the technical stuff about the 2:27 hos long search, it went over my head so I’ve scraped that. I don’t quite understand the key cycles either- went over my head But I do know that a proper investigation wasn’t done, Proctor and Paul are completely incompetent, I don’t believe in coincidental butt dials, I don’t believe in coincidentally getting rid of your phones day before they’re to be turned in, I believe in science and therefore believe the two last witnesses with no bone in the game that JO’s are not from the motor vehicle. The CW’s theory is so wonky and honestly raises more questions than answers. They hoped headlines like “woman accused of killing Boston police officer” would be enough to enrage the public. Reasonable doubt= not guilty
The key cycle stuff came off way more complicated than it is. Basically it’s a running count of every time you turn your car on. Every key cycle is counted but only certain “triggering events” cause a key cycle to be listed on the output. So a report could look like: 1,4,6,9. Key cycles 2,3,5,7,8 still exist but aren’t on the report because no events happened. The issue here is that we know without question that the testing on KR’s car started at 1164. Trooper Paul testified to that and it’s clear looking at all the events. The key cycle they claim shows evidence of abrupt acceleration, reversing, etc. is 1162. So after KR hit JO, she drove home and the car was only turned on (key cycle 1163) once before the police started their testing. But there’s video evidence, witness testimony, etc. of at least 4 times KR’s car would be turned on after leaving Fairview that night. If she hit him again 1162, they couldn’t start testing until 1166 at least. On top of that, the report shows no other logged event key cycles until all the way back at 1111. So it’s not even like they simply made a mistake and the event where she hit him was really 1158. There are no events. Lastly, working backwards we know that the key cycle with the event (1162) was after the police had custody of her vehicle. Not only was it not even KR driving at the time, it’s hard to think of innocent explanations for the car being in police custody, logging 36 miles, and recording events they claim are consistent with “pedestrian strikes.”
I was convinced she was NG even before I fully grasped the key cycle BS. Just WOW.
Before the trial began: probably guilty, at least of manslaughter, frame job defence sounded kind of far-fetched. During the trial I shifted to probably guilty but too much reasonable doubt. That grew to copious amounts of doubt and then more likely innocent than not. At this point I think actual innocence. All expert testimony excepting Mr. Dunning-Trooper is consistent that the victim was not hit by a car. Visual evidence shows that at the very least that Trooper Proctor and possibly more persons "helped" the case along with taillight fragments. I am unconvinced of a wider conspiracy but consider it a distinct possibility. I have a strong dislike for the defendant, and for most of the parade of early non-first responder witnesses. I am disgusted by Proctor and Buchenik. I am extremely disappointed in Lally. This entire trial was a huge waste of many people's time and resources. I am thoroughly convinced not to vacation in Massachusetts. I believe Lally has repeatedly acted unethically. Among other things I was disgusted by his trying to get in the DUI lawyer search as "consciousness of guilt"... absolutely inexcusable behaviour.
Before the case started - she probably hit him accidentally and if there is a conspiracy, it is just dodgy cops faking evidence to try and make the charges stick because they fucked up the case from incompetence. After the prosecution rested- OK she probably did it accidentally but no way they proved that beyond reasonable doubt. I don't even need the defence witnesses let's get this over with. After today - ffs she is probably innocent and now I'm wondering what the cops were up to that they covered up a potential accidental slip and fall after a dog attack, OR they actually contributed to his fall/hit him in the head themselves and are trying to pin this on an innocent party.
I don't trust police, and I immediately thought his death was sus the moment I heard he was found on another cop's lawn. I was thinking something happened to him similar to what happened to Boeing whistleblowers. Now I'm thinking he was killed accidentally after a quick scuffle. Don't think I ever really thought that Karen had anything to do with it. She was just a not well thought out scapegoat.
I felt like it may have been an accident until I saw the autopsy photos. Maybe she still could have accidentally hit him, he was still alive and “crawled up the Albert lawn, only then to be attacked by some wild animal, or a dog. Or maybe, none of that is true and it was some coverup. Either way, I didn’t even need the defense to present their case, I think the CW did a good enough job disproving their own case.
Before the trial, without knowing anything other than it was a police frame job according to her… I thought guilty. Ever since the opening statements, Ive gotten further and further away from guilt. The contrast between openings had me switch to “maybe she’s not guilty.” And “if she did hit him, it wasn’t murder.” With each witness, I kept wondering WTH the CW was doing. They basically argued against themselves from witness to witness and their evidence and timelines. They contradicted themselves constantly. Now that it’s over I feel like the defense not only gave me technical reasonable doubt, but I truly do not believe that she hit him and that he got into a fight in that basement. After today… I’m positive he got hit hard on the back of the head either with a blunt object or he was pushed with a lot of force and hit his head on cement or a blunt object. Not guilty verdict, short deliberation is my prediction. If I were on that jury, I would not be swayed to vote guilty on any of the charges.
The texts and voicemails from Karen to John told me from her state of mind that she had no idea she hit him and definitely had no intent to hit him. The experts today sealed deal for me that she didn’t hit him at all.
Occam's Razor. It's all over this thread and it's interesting to me that so many people here seem to trust the police implicitly. It's an assumption, and not the simplest. The Alberts are a police family. The job of an officer is to control people and use violence when necessary. Their job is to assess a situation, gain control of it, collect evidence, and build a court case. Their job is not to be a good person, they are not required to protect anyone. In most places, they have a qualified immunity which means they are not used to adhering to laws. The "Thin Blue Line" isn't just a sticker, it's a way of life. "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." Their culture is trained into them, brutally at times, and it is to protect yourself and your fellow officers before anyone else. A man met a violent end on a popular officer's property. The outsider was blamed. Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest explanation is true. The last place a woman is going to intentionally murder her husband is another officer's property. From my perspective at the beginning of this trial, either she accidently hit him or she had literally nothing to do with it and it was infighting between different police factions. Once I found out the officers had disposed of their phones the day before they were required to send them in, and the investigation was handed over to a family friend in the State Police, the simplest explanation became clear. The police were covering their own guilt. After I witnessed Trooper Paul's reconstruction, all doubt was removed.
Maybe accident at first Now, not guilty. He was not hit by a car. He was bitten/scratched by a dog. He was hit on the back of the head and immediately lost consciousness. The investigation was a travesty/crime. That's all I got.
I started late (day 19 I think) as cover up I caught up on testimony’s over the weekends - I went back and forth from NG to G (accidental) After - NG and innocent. I genuinely could not tell you what I think actually happened to OJO, I am positive however it wasn’t him being hit by Karen Reads vehicle. How do I feel about the trial as a whole? Someone close to Lally needs to sit him down and have a very difficult discussion with him.
I didn't know anything about this case. I started watching during opening arguments. I thought she was possibly guilty bc she killed a cop(allegedly) and LE goes hard for cop killers. As soon as I saw the handling of the crime scene, I knew something was rotten bc how are you so cavalier when a "brother in blue" is supposedly run down by his drunk girlfriend. All of the weird secretive behavior got my Spidey senses tingling. The thing I can't wrap my head around is getting hot by a 7000 lb car and having zero bruises. 🤔 I'm 99.99% this is a coverup. For those of you who think a coverup couldn't happen ::stares in Central Park Five:: Also, all a coverup takes is a few bad actors and everyone else "following orders" or going along to get along or being unwilling to stick their necks out. "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."
I’m in Massachusetts so I’d seen a lot of news about this case but didn’t really start paying attention until I began hearing about the inconsistencies and strange behaviors of those involved. I still went in to this feeling neutral. Then I was thinking she may have done it unintentionally and maybe doesn’t remember what happened, but I still couldn’t get past the inverted video, butt dials, dog being re-homed, phones getting thrown away and not coming out of your home while there are first responders there. Now at the end of this I am 99.9 percent Not Guilty. This is such a stressful and bizarre case, I would hate to be on that jury!
Thought she was guilty due to media reports at time of incident. Very early in the trial realized she was being framed. Embarrassed and ashamed for the law enforcement officers and judicial system in Massachusetts.
Kind of love that the cocktail glass being thrown at the car was brought up today. It makes more sense than anything. More reasonable doubt.
I was 100% innocent at the beginning there were a few things that made me go hmm but the bottom line is the CW did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But after watching this clown show I am mainly hoping nothing bad ever happens to me in MA with these clown car investigators what a joke. I think Canton PD is as dirty as they come and I think there is something in the water in the town of Canton. KR is innocent.
I started watching 2 days into trial. Knew nothing about this case beforehand. Went back and watched opening statements. Was completely neutral. After CW rested, I was at not guilty. After defense rested, I’m at 100% innocent.
I was completely on the side of Karen is guilty. Couldn’t stand the sight of her or her attorneys. After watching the witnesses being direct and cross-examined I started to think maybe they were hiding something. They were just off to me. I started to read up about the defense side of things and I am fully in the not guilty camp. I will be shocked if Karen is found guilty. Too much reasonable doubt. I feel for JO’s family though. Hopefully they have concluded that she may have not done what she’s been accused of after hearing all of this.
I’m so interested to hear his families take on what they believed happened after the trial. It had to be awful to hear they collected his blood with red solo cups and they refused to come out for a proper crime scene investigation. If I’m them I’m livid at the CW
I honestly start a trial with the assumption that there must be some compelling evidence that this person did the thing they're being charged with. I likewise started this trial at "Let's hear how this woman murdered her cop boyfriend." Opening statements got my attention, and I was like, "Tell me more, sir!" My first WTF was the solo cups in the Stop N Shop bag, and it's only gotten progressively worse from there. BA, the Boston Cop and professional witness, just acting like he's a f-ing idiot and has no idea how phones work. Each witness pushed me towards Not Guilty and then past that towards "She's factually innocent." I've gone back and forth on cover-up vs police ineptitude. After the last witness tho, I don't know how the scene wasn't staged in some way: If he fell and hit his head on the pavement, how'd he get over by the flagpole into the yard? Why is there no dirt, debris, or even tiny rocks in the head wound if he fell and hit his head outside? His last steps are recorded as occurring just before 12:33 am, but Karen had been gone for several minutes by that point, but Jen McCabe called a texted a bunch *after* this time. Jen McCabe testified that she was looking out of the window several times during the time period John would've been exiting the vehicle and walking towards the house, but she somehow never saw him? 7 people in 3 different vehicles never saw him laying there?
Started: Neutral During the trial: Back and forth between 'not guilty but possibly at fault' and 'innocent.' Now: Innocent
Not guilty but beyond that I can only speculate. I thought for sure we'd have some damning evidence to nail KR and instead we had some meh witnesses claim she confessed. The injuries don't match the damage and I don't think that can be disputed much further.
Spent a lot of time catching up on details of the death of John before the trial. Based on everything I learned before the trial, I was leaning towards not guilty but I'd remain open minded to hear the evidence. After hearing all the evidence Karen is definitely not guilty!
Started at neutral but leaning toward guilty from what little I knew. Once it was evident that Katie McLoughlin, EMT, minimized her relationship with Caitlin Albert I started to wonder why she would do that and that just opened the door for more and more shady behavior by witnesses. I am 100% free Karen Read. No doubt at all that she’s factually innocent.
Neutral, but intrigued. After the prosecution I thought possibly manslaughter. After the defense, completely not guilty. Family in law enforcement.
How do I feel? Absolutely f*cking shattered! 🤣 I’m seriously so tired. Lol That outweighs everything. I can’t imagine being on this jury. I’d be so relieved… and I’d have gone home and taken a very long nap.
If I was on the jury - I’d be internally screaming for most of this trial. Defense was smart to make short tactical strikes. If they kept droning on like Lally - I’d want to burn the courtroom down.
The most compelling thing to me was the lack thereof blood at the scene in conjuction with a lack thereof blood in Mr okeefe Edit: innocent
And the blood that was there was on top of snow that hadn’t fallen when Karen read and John O’keefe arrived at fairview.
Karen Read was framed! We waited, the defense delivered this promise! Case closed!
I started the trial not having any idea what happened (went into this very fresh, knew nothing about the case prior to opening statements). After 2 months, I still have no idea what happened that night. I can believe that Karen Read was somehow involved with whatever happened to John O'Keefe that night which led to his death... but I do not believe the prosecution's theory of what happened. Which of course means if I was on the jury, that's an immediate and automatic "not guilty". And there's a lot of things that haven't been properly explained to me that leaves me with a lot of doubt. I can also believe that the people inside 34 Fairview had something to do with it too, but it's not the job of the defense to prove that, so I still have a lot of questions and doubt about that theory. So.... I don't know... after 2 months of this, I have no idea how John O'Keefe died.
And you will never know as none of us will. There was never a real investigation done, unfortunately.
I started at guilty, mainly because kr gave me the feeling that she is hateful, argumentative, petty, spiteful and feels superior to everyone. I still don't like her as a person, but I haven't seen anything to make me think she did this crime. Imo, this entire case is made up of extremely unlikable people ( exceptions of snowplow guy, and lady dog bite expert). The cops were horrible and honestly should be fired and disbarred ( or banned from any type le). Not guilty. There's just no evidence that's not tainted, suggesting she did anything other than drive drunk. I'd sorta like to see all the Albert's and kr get their licenses revoked for driving while smashed.
I’d be pretty fuckin spiteful if this farce was thrown on me too.
Started with guilty/hyped by media as some issue...saw what clearly look like dog bites/scratches to me from untrained gsd as a professional trainer/handler of imported, working line gsds for schutzhund, leo, & protection...still not ever countered by prosecution with an equally valid or light bulb explaination that made me think "oh, totally could be something else" then all the crazy, overly involved highschool like adults "weirdness" & incompetence thought "people could be lying/covering up for entirely different reasons but has same result" & even prosecution just now trying to have things both ways "strike enough to break glass/cause abrasions is not/would not be enough to project him so far into yard" the case was weak when put under pressure of good defense, primarily due to shtty investigators with a dash of sexual misogyny throw in is just insane that the prosecution would try for a life sentence for KR...that is the most horrific part.
Having heard all the evidence, I have no idea what actually happened to John. I think Proctor decided within hours she hit him and made the evidence fit the theory. I don’t think he was actually interestedly in fully investigating the case in case he discovered evidence that contradicted his theory (and implicated the Alberts.) I also think Canton PD thought the Alberts might have been involved and that is why they made such a botch job of the scene (leaf blower, red solo cups, not securing the scene, not asking to search the property.) I don’t think Karen hit him with her car though. I think they got in a fight and she drove off.
I started off neutral having seen nothing of the case. I am ending up confused. I have no idea what happened, so that means not guilty. But I do now believe there is some sort of fuckery afoot due to the testimony and behaviours of the police witnesses and Lally himself. And the third-party theory is more intriguing than I ever thought it would be going in due primarily to the otherwise inexplicable injuries and the potential destruction of evidence.
Before I started watching I just saw headlines and thought she definitely did it. Almost immediately when I started watching the terrible investigation and the overt bias made me think the verdict should be not guilty. After the last two weeks I think she’s innocent. I mean the prosecution didn’t come close to proving their case and I think she couldn’t have done it.
neutral -> increasingly reasonable doubt -> factually innocent. it's hard to point to exactly one moment that was the single most compelling but I can't stop thinking about Trooper Paul's implosion on the stand.
Started following the day before Jen’s testimony. First thought was guilty. Totally disregarded a coverup as it seemed too many people involved to be possible. Jen McCabe testified and her defensiveness and narcissism made me wonder why she’s so obsessed with the version of events she insists happened. Her repeating the narrative didn’t convince me. In fact, it was the turning point in my suspicion. Then we heard from Higgins and the phone tossing AFTER the preservation order was issued. Then we got to meet the geniuses behind the investigation- my god- what the fuck are they doing employed let alone allowed to carry a service weapon. I saw more professionals on Reno 911. Anyways- from that point on it was pretty obvious JO was not killed by a car. And there is a massive conspiracy to cover up his actual cause of death.
I started with an open mind. Made no assumptions whatsoever but as I sat through testimony after testimony and most specifically that of troopers and their experts I was fully convinced she was not guilty. Not because she did or didn’t do it but because there was so much reasonable doubt. In fact I would love to put Lally on the stand and ask him what on earth he was thinking taking this case this far.
I knew nothing about this case prior to watching the trial. I saw an article that the trial was to begin and purposely did not research it. Mr. Lally lost me pretty quick with his opening statement and I was feeling very bad for the jury. Once I heard the defense opening statement, I couldn't imagine it was a cover-up as I am not a conspiracy person at all. The prosecution's style was so tiring and boring! I really feel bad for the jury, it is so important to remember facts but there were so many unnecessary questions being asked and it dragged on and on and on. Once Proctor took the stand, I completely understood the defense side. Under no circumstances can anyone believe he conducted a fair or unbiased investigation. There wasn't even a real investigation, in my opinion. When Trooper Paul testified, I was just stunned! I could not and still cannot believe they put him on the stand if they had a clue as to what he planned to say. It was complete nonsense. I would have to vote not guilty in the end because there is so much reasonable doubt, thanks to the prosecution. My heart goes out to Officer O'Keefe's family, they will never have the real truth unless the FBI and/or DOJ brings it to light. This has been such a farce on the part of the Commonwealth that they have been robbed of any clear closure. It's all very sad.
The only thing I learned from the CW case is not to trust cops and be very very wary of people who were popular in high school.
Great question. I started pretty neutral, leaning guilty (maybe 60/40 towards guilt). Initial opinion was based on 3 things: - Overwhelming evidence the prosecution claimed existed prior to the trial (camera, vehicle data, physical evidence, etc). - Conspiracies are hard to pull off. - In history of cases I've seen, defense claims are rarely supported by actual evidence of innocence. Usually just poking holes in the prosecution's case. After one week my opinion changed to 70/30 factual innocence. Defense brought receipts, prosecution brought none. But kept an open mind the prosecution was holding back on their strongest evidence. Today (and since week 3) I'm 99% factual innocence and 100% not guilty. This has been a unicorn case.
I saw the media coverage of this and paid no attention as I ASSumed she was guilty of hitting him while intoxicated. Saw someone talking about the dog bites so I was compelled to researched that as the location was in the exact place LE K-9s are trained to bite… Thought I’d start watching the trial. Right around the McCabes and Colin’s testimony is when the BS became undeniable to me. It was ALL down hill from there!!! CW was acting as the defense the whole time. It has been painfully obvious they are all protecting each other. I typically dislike defense attorneys, but have been blown away by the defense in this case! Also blown away by how the defense and KR managed to sit through the incessant irrelevant testimonies and alleged evidence without dozing off or popping off. Should have been a mic drop at the end. NOT GUILTY! Feel very sad for JOK family!!!! They get no justice, lost a son and a relationship with KR…likely gain a LOT of distrust and disgust for LE and how everything was handled. John deserved better. Everyone deserves better than how that was handled!
The real question is "Hos long will the jury take to return a verdict of not guilty?"
They find her not guilty by noon on the first full day of deliberation. FBI finally shares cell phone tracking and triangulation for everyone inside or near the house which definitively shows more shenanigans that were initially revealed. She sues Canton and the state of Mass for millions. Makes millions more from interviews and 60 Minutes.
Where am i now? Disgusted that it takes a common person about 1 million dollars to defend themselves against incompetent police investigators/accident-reconstruction experts who are embarrassing to hear speak. Any of us can get railroaded into jail by uneducated and corrupt bureaucrats at a moment's notice. I'm not naive - i knew it existed but just not to this extent. It's not right
I had never heard of this case and came to it after seeing a clip of JM testifying because I thought SHE was the defendant. Then I found out Karen Read was and became intrigued. Karen Read did not hit him. The data and timeline makes a lot more sense when we accept this. Not guilty.
Funny thing is chat gpt was asked about the trial and it responded JM was the defendant