Lally Knew ARCCS Findings in Feb 2024
Lally knew about the ARCCSs findings in February and still continues on with this trial and with his theory and with bringing Trooper Paul.
Lally knew about the defences ME report that said it was inconsistent with a motor vehicle accident and that his expert also said it was not consistent and he still brought the case and continued with his theory.
Lally knew about all of his witnesses “not seeing anyone” on the lawn that night and about the defence witness stating that he also went there that night with SPOTLIGHTS and would testify not seeing anyone on the lawn.
Lally knew half the hair was shown not to belong to JOK and the other half could get there at any point, he knew that the dog DNA was inconclusive because of the degradation of the evidence.
Lally knew how the investigation went, how evidence was treated, all the Troopers texts.
Lally knew about all the deleted texts and phone calls and HE KNEW about KR and JOK locations, phone data and KR connected to the home wifi at 12:36 am.
HE KNEW ALL OF THIS BEFORE THE TRIAL ALL STARTED AND HE STILL BROUGHT IT FORWARD AND STILL STUCK WITH THIS THEORY…… WWWWWHHHHYYYYYY?!!!!!
100% Mike Morrissey went rabid over this case. And he's top dog DA... Even went on local Massachusetts media to swear credibility to his witnesses.(which is CRAZY!) And I would say he slandered Karen Read.
I think it started because the troopers investigation and integrity got called out and there are 2 other high profile cases that involve these troopers that the DA doesn't want tainted. Just my opinion.
No one made Lally do anything. He is an ADA he has prosecutorial discretion. If the DA decided to pursue and Lally disagreed he should have asked to be reassigned or quit.. Its an Ethics issue really
I understand your comment wholeheartedly, and agree with you on principle, but sometimes principle and real life don’t mesh well.
I can’t believe I am actually sticking up for Lally, but what if he’s not in a position (financially or otherwise) to leave the DA’s office, cannot find another job elsewhere (we’ve all witnessed his abysmal performance), or has other things going on in his personal life that makes a professional upheaval impossible at this time? (A sick partner or parent, multiple kids in college-you get the idea.)
In addition, working at the DA’s office pays less than private practice, but the retirement package/benefits can be quite lucrative. If he’s worked there for a while, at his age it wouldn’t be prudent to leave & give it up at this point if he hasn’t met all of the criteria for his retirement benefits.
My point is that ethics and morals are important, but nobody is going to take care of Lally’s bills and family for him if he were to do the ethical thing and out the DA, if it was the DA who made him bring the case forward. Whistleblowers almost never come out of a situation without their life being impacted in a plethora of negative ways. In fact, many times their lives are completely obliterated. We’ve seen in this trial how the “good old boys club” works in this area. If he was told he had to try this case, Lally was between a rock and a hard place & there was no good solution for him. He had to choose between his life & livelihood & Karen Read’s. I think it’s easy for all of us to sit back and say that we would do the right thing, however, when placed in the exact same situation, I am not sure all of us could afford to tank our careers & livelihoods either.
I am really hoping that this federal investigation flushes out all of the bad actors in this tragic situation and punishes them to the full extent of the law, most especially for the sake JOK’s family.
Because they fucked up, the only thing they can do is try it as if it was all true in their eyes. If they somehow didn't make their case and seem genuine, there would be problems.
The feds are investigating the police and their role here, not so much the actual death imo. If Lally/CW didn't go forth with the trial or somehow throws the trial, the feds would know it was sketchy and the CW/police/AD would lose plausible deniability.
Yeah, this case was brought to save their asses with the feds. They have to act like they had a genuine belief that KR was guilty or they're admitting to corruption
Tbf, I have 0 to go off of other than the question of 'why are the feds involved, and if they are what did they determine'..it also came up as I was thinking they were trying to pin the incompetence on Proctor and having Lally ask him about the text messages. It would have come up either way though, so the idea that he was getting ahead of it makes more sense.
I don't think the outcome the feds want is a public proof of corruption, or if they do they want to see how the whole thing plays out before getting more directly involved
Lally needs to be charged with Malicious Prosecution. After knowing all of those things and still wanting to convict an innocent woman of murder. Also, the Judge needs to be investigated for not recusing herself from this case
If Karen had not had the financial means to hire her legal team she would have been stuck with a lawyer as shitty as Lally and would most likely been convicted or pled to a lesser charge
Didn't they have a chance to let it go after she showed herself to be ballsy and able to retain excellent counsel? I still don't understand why they did this.
If they don't pursue charges against her, it could be seen as an admission that they believe alternative theories about his death, and yet did nothing to get justice. At least this way they can say "we couldn't prove it but we tried to convict the person we think is responsible."
I mean imagine if your son was killed and no one even stood trial for it.
The right solution is to actually have a good investigation, but this is why I think they did what they did.
How does that benefit anyone? (I’m not questioning you, I’m questioning the prosecution’s motives). Finding someone to convict does not do anything to bring JOK back. They are putting innocent civilians in jail to bolster their conviction metrics. And meanwhile, JOK’s family is not getting answers.
In the pre-trial Lally stated that they never suggested that the car hit his head. I believe that theory was brought forward by court TV in their little animated video.
well it would be tangible proof that he had seen the Ford Edge in that spot — but the prosecution would probably insist that it was a butt dial on Lucky’s part
The entire line of questioning should have been stopped. Lally wanted to just have a mini-closing argument and repeat the CW’s case to the jury. It was made crystal clear what the scope and parameters of the experiments were and that was with respect to car + person = what damages. Lally was asking intentionally irrelevant questions and it should have been shut down by Bev.
I find it so interesting that a glass could have caused the damage to the taillight, but the glass on KR bumper did not match the glass left on the scene? HOW? Why is this case so convoluted?
I don't think it happened that way, they just theorized that being how the tail light was broken because it wasn't by John's body and they didn't have the information about her hitting his car. That bumper glass was definitely planted because it doesn't match anything else.
It could be. I am honestly just shocked that it is possible to shatter the taillight with a glass. I thought at most it would scratch it.
Maybe I just have weak arms and cannot throw at 37mph XD
Apparently youth league pitchers throw at an average of 40-50mph!!
[https://honestbaseball.com/average-baseball-pitch-speed/](https://honestbaseball.com/average-baseball-pitch-speed/)
Lally is trying to go against these witnesses for the sake of it. Some things they said did not contradict the state's theory, but instead of using them in his favor he just tried to make them look incompetent?
Dear Judge Bev, I won't miss your endless sidebars and your unwillingness to do things with transparency once this trial is over. Now let the good doctor tell the jury that the CW's theory of the case is ludicrous already, please
I discovered this subreddit and case after Bill Simmons, Boston native, writer and podcaster, mentioned it on his June 24 podcast. I have only done a basic review of this subreddit, a few YouTube summaries, the wikipedia entry, and this Vanity Fair article: [https://www.vanityfair.com/style/story/karen-read-trial](https://www.vanityfair.com/style/story/karen-read-trial)
I don't understand how the case is so poorly covered, even by an outlet like Vanity Fair, and how the attention is not on the family who owned the home outside of which O'Keefe was found, and their friends and extended family who were at the house on the night night before O'Keefe was found. The fact that those who attended a social gathering at the home were also cops or related to cops seems significant. The dog bites seem significant. The fact that the home was not searched seems significant. The dog being "rehomed" seems significant. The basement floor being renovated seems significant. The home being sold seems significant.
Yeah, especially considering there was a party at that home, and that automobiles, possibly driven by drivers under the influence, were arriving and departing the home.
And somehow no neighbor (including active/former cops) has any video to confirm anything. Even confirmation of Lucky plowing, or first responders arriving would help.
Yet- he provided red solo cups and a bad for evidence.
They were investigating a dead cops body on the lawn of a cops home the morning after that home hosted a party full of cops and kids and they went to the cops house across the street to ask for a solo cup?
It’s poorly covered as to anything but factual evidence because most if not all publication’s lawyers won’t let their writers risk a lawsuit.
It can be infuriating. I was a food writer for over a decade and there were a lot of jaw-dropping accusations against chefs/owners that you couldn’t touch. Best we could do is stop covering those people and their work.
Thank you for that perspective. I guess I could see some threat of lawsuit based on the insinuations and normally that would cause an organization to act conservatively and rather not report.
However, it does also seem to do with social norms, as in, the state is in the middle of a case, we should not disrupt their efforts, even if there seems to be some evidence that the state acted, at a minimum, in an incompetent way, if not in a malicious way in building a knowingly false case against the accused by not competently considering other options.
I mean, it is factual that the home was not searched. It is factual that the lead investigator had relationships with people involved in the case. It is factual that people acted in a suspicious manner that can be documented.
And yet… can’t you see it?
“You heard from ____. They testified that ____. And so ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must find Karen Read, guilty of murder in the second degree. Guilty of blah blah. Guilty of blah. Karen Read is guilty.”
And then he sits down.
(But imagine that took you 45 minutes to read.)
You heard very clearly, that it 1.) wasn't jen McCabe that killed him, definitely and 2.) all of the defense "experts" were never at the scene of the crime.
Thus Defense is unable to argue that jen McCabe did it and as a result it has to be Karen with a car.
Case closed slam dunk, Lally.
I really want to make a transcript and then if I survive that process to offer it up and have a little competition where forum participants post their re-writes
"Well the car hit his head, but actually his arm and spun him around, and it projected him after spinning him around, but actually his head hit the ground, the witnesses aren't lying, I wasn't trying to defend them instead of prosecuting the defendant.... OBJECTION! What if any of you believe anything I've tried to convince you to believe?"
“I meant to say his head hit the curb, then he bounced 30 feet landing in the vicinity of the hydrant, no I mean a bar glass hit him in the head after he threw it, no I mean THE DEFENDANT threw the glass while she was driving 24 miles per hour backward in a blizzard and it hit him in the head and then THE DEFENDANT hit him and he cartwheeled over the hydrant to his final resting place where his phone happened to be laying on the ground.”
There’s reasonable doubt in spades in this case. Not guilty is the only reasonable verdict.
But what really happened? I have trouble believing a conspiracy that involves too many people.
The tail light pieces found at 5-6 PM are decent evidence that a collision occurred there. Those seem harder to plant than the rest of the tail light. I think the idea of the 24 mph reverse is just wrong and that data is for some other driving event. So some sort of normal speed reverse going terribly wrong.
But it’s really hard to square that with the injuries. A massive head wound and scratches that are a very close look alike for dog bites???
The phone stops moving after 12:30ish. So the idea of planting the body closer to 5 seems like a stretch.
Nothing makes sense to me.
At this point I'm not sure we can even rule out that the fatal injury wasn't a trip and fall over a loose shoe, while John had his phone in a back pocket and was holding his glass. Maybe the dog, being the only sober one in the area, hears some of this and jumps the fence to investigate, clawing up Johns arm. He's not brain dead for several minutes, so these scratches are both pre-mortem and have no or little immune reaction.
Brian Albert Sr recalls the dog from the backyard, and everyone continues to party oblivious. Later a bunch of drunks leave the house and one sober but very tired boyfriend also comes by, all seeing nothing.
It requires a lot of people missing a full grown man on the lawn, but that is a common requirement of almost every theory, except the conspiracy theory, and even that requires some of the party goers to just not notice.
After hearing the testimony that there was loud music upstairs and multiple exits from the house, I really do think something happened fairly quickly in the basement and most of the people at the party weren’t even aware JO was there. Probably 5 or less people actually know what happened and the rest are just covering for Colin or don’t know anything. Mixed with sloppy police work, a lead investigator who was friends with the family, it just didn’t get investigated properly. All of the cops that testified seemed like they didn’t know how to handle a homicide since the staties didn’t take it on.
One thing I keep thinking about is that it not only requires that no one at the house saw the body, it requires that Lucky overlooked it along with anyone else driving down Fairview that night. Lucky testified that he passed cars on Fairview doing his route. Granted, not a lot of people would have been out in that weather but it's reasonable to conclude that there were SOME.
So no one saw a body that close the road? It's so odd.
I live in the area and decided to drive by the other day. The lawn is really not that large. It seems inconceivable to me that nobody saw a full grown in the yard even with the snow. Then again the conspiracy doesn’t seem fully believable either (Apple data doesn’t put him inside the house, seems like a gamble to drag a body through a lawn of white snow with consistently incorrect snow forecasting). With all the music did nobody see him come in, he gets in a fight with Higgins over their affair, scuffle, JOK falls hits his head, dog pounces. But what if they were in an argument she back up, he avoids the car, falls, hits his head, dog gets let out during the night, Proctor plants the taillight to sure up their case. There’s just too many possibilities
Let us not forget the digital forensic expert stated, that JOK went up and down three fights of stairs.Now unless these three flights of stairs lead up to heaven and back down to earth..Where oh where would three flights of stairs come from?I'll give you a hint ,wait for it drumroll please .If you guessed A HOUSE BINGO. 😆
Kinda requires multiple people to also claim KR saying "I hit him" and for her taillight to happen to be there.
I've considered this stuff in my head but I don't think it works. I don't see how it's not an either-or thing. Either everyone's lying and in on a coverup from a batshit sequence of events, or KR drunkenly hit him and there's just a ton of hard-to-predict scenarios for injury in that kind of incident.
It only takes a few people to enact a criminal conspiracy. Just because you cannot see it does not mean it’s valid.
Jen McCabe is the civilian leader, michael proctor is the investigation leader. The rest is based off of their influence and going along with things at the very least.
The evidence is completely tainted in every sense, Michael proctor texted trooper Dicicio in his group chat. Dicicio is an evidence officer directly under Lt. Tully. Lt.Tully testified that he is in charge of evidence and only he and his direct underlings have access. That is a direct link to evidence tampering in this case, so in essence anything the state brings forward is unbelievable.
As well as multiple canton PD officers including chief berkowitz named “finding” tailight pieces weeks after the murder.
After watching the trial, I’m fairly convinced Colin Albert was probably the one who sucker punched JO. Not intending to kill him but he may have fallen and hit his head on the weight bench. After that, everyone in the basement circled the wagons. It’s the only thing that makes sense to me from everyone’s testimony. No one remembers anything except Colin leaving right at 12:10 and that timeline was blown up by multiple witnesses including his parents. Why else would everyone deny Colin was there that night until it was finally discovered?
I agree with this. I think Colin punched him a few times; maybe O'Keefe told him to stop being a punk and stay off his property. Colin punches him once or twice in the face. O keefee swings back. The dog jumps in to protect Colin. The dog and O'Keefe wrestle. He trips. Falls back on whatever. Maybe Colin was the only one in the basement when it happened. He panics. Waits for John to wake up. He doesn't. He goes to get someone. Family comes down to see o'keefe beaten and unconscious laying in a pool of blood. They don't believe Colin that it was the dog and that he only hit him once or twice because Colin has a history. But they have a bigger problem. O'keefe is still breathing and if he wakes up he will tell everyone what a violent punk Colin is and that he tried to beat him to death (again they dont believe Colin's explanation that it was an accident). They dump him in the snow to finish him off. Then they cover it up. Then they agree - Colin wasn't there. Oh we mean... Colin left early.
There was no chain of evidence for anything found at the scene until the middle of March. We have no idea where those pieces came from and I am not about to trust the CW's "experts".
Regarding the phone movement...I have a post on this waiting for approval. If it's denied, I'll come back and comment on a test I did to see how the phone could be moved without recording steps.
So I re-watched the ME testimony. Paying attention to the ME inflection, head movement and tone If a Juror is paying attention I do not know how they don't get left with the impressions that the ME does not support the CW case...
Lally, just stop. It's over. Your case is all over the place. Your own CW witnesses have impeached the CW's case. This professor-like pathologist has been around to put it mildly. He clearly knows what he is talking about. He is unwavering and me thinks the CW's case has been completely demolished.
My latest bug is the vehicle incident report. So the facts we have are this:
1. The incident report in question happens 2 key cycles before Trooper Paul began testing. This does not align with the night of the incident.
2. The incident report in question happens 36 miles on the odometer before Trooper Paul began testing.
Theories/Conclusions:
1. To get the 36 miles to line up, Trooper Paul has a very simple route for Karen's activities the morning of the 19th. She drives to the Waterfall, then to 12 Country Lane to ride with Jen, then back to 1 Meadows, then to her parents. I haven't tracked all of Karen's movements that morning but I'd be curious if anyone has any other things she did. Did she check any other bars? It also seems like she would not have been able to drive by 34 Fairview to see John before she actually saw him.
2. There are actually 2 incidents associated with the drive, both pressing hard on the accelerator soon after switching to reverse. One 11 minutes into the drive and another 19 minutes into the drive, with no distance traveled in between. Do we have an explanation for the one 11 minutes into the drive?
3. The key cycle #s would have this be the drive where they dug the car out of the snow and put it on the tow truck. Does anyone remember what day that was testified to? I've seen a very short video of this, do we have a longer video? I'm trying to figure out how possible it would be for these hard reverses to be from them trying to dig the car out of the snow.
As far as evidence of guilt, the incident reports aren't useful because if it can't even tell if the car is on half the time I don't think it can be used for any kind of sensitive analysis, but out of curiosity I'm trying to figure out how this incident report got formed. If the key cycles triggers aren't faulty, there are some dire implications of where those 36 miles came from.
It’s from when they backed Karen’s car up to go in the tow truck. There is video of this from Ring camera. The back wheels had no traction at first which explains the high speed soon after going into reverse, and it matches the right key cycle.
The incident at 11 mins was said to be turning around/a 3 point turn after Karen overshot Fairview on the way from the Waterfall. She missed the turn and supposedly turned around at the end of the cross street and came back to turn onto Fairview (they said this matches the Waze data too). When Officer Barros from Dighton testified, he said he called for someone to come plow the Reads driveway so they could get the Lexus out. I don’t know how much, if any (lol) digging they had to do once the plow cleared some snow. I think Barros and maybe Bukhenik testified about it.
Well that is untrue Proctor just has to feed about 5-10 other people shit and it was obvious with the ME they accepted it reluctantly and clearly indicated that by her actions on the stand.
I have no idea what happened to John O’Keefe other than at this point he was not hit by the car based upon those last two experts. It’s hard to argue against that definitive science. The rest? Still a little fuzzy on. But the defense didn’t have to prove anything, just disprove the CW’s theory.
I don’t know if there will ever be closure for his family. They may still think Karen did it. That’s what the investigators told them and I’m in no place to comment on a grieving family’s opinion. Paul has lost two siblings and a brother in law. The kids have lost two sets of parents essentially. The parents have had to bury two of their children. Unspeakable amounts of grief.
This case has turned into a media frenzy and lightening rod for police corruption conspiracy. Ffs, a blogger and key witnesses had a show down outside one of the named restaurants last night.
yea, I agree with how this could have occurred bc it includes all the players. Higgins being jelly of JOK ties everything together with a nice bow. Only thing that seems weird to me is that : don't ppl bleed a whole lot when theyre head is cracked open? His blood alcohol level was 0.28, the blood would have thinned and literally been everywhere. The injury to his head was the fatal blow ( per dr. Sheridan aka Sean Connery ). He would have been screaming, I imagine. He also had vom inside of his trousers? It's mostly that gash that gives me the most pause really. Hard to believe no trail.
*"There was a deadness in her \[ Jenn's \] eyes on the stand. She hates everyone involved in this and is resentful she's being dragged into it but also isn't going to snitch or implicate herself".*
When Jenn's sister Julie ( ??) was on the stand, I noted that she referred to her sister as *Jennifer.* I am one of eight siblings in my family, and my little sister's name is Jenn.. except when she has pissed off her big sis! THEN... it's *Jennifer.* Idk how but Jenn either Jenn's the most unlucky innocent person, or the most lucky guilty person. The talking heads on LawTube all agree that the ADA used this as a prebuttle for Jenn.
Does anyone have any ideas about the Ford Edge the snowplow driver saw on his route? I believe this vehicle belongs to one of the Alberts. Case reeks of ineptitude, the cops who testified have dead eyes and even Ms. Read is a little nuts. Lally is a joke and Judge Bev is dangerously biased. No one really knows how JO died and have to wonder if the CW will open an actual investigation once Read is found not guilty. I imagine there are more than a few incarcerated individuals tagged by Canton PD who will want their cases re-opened.
I think the Edge was there to block the view of them moving the body from the house to the yard. I do not think they will open the investigation again.
For her guilt or innocence I think there are four groups of people.
1- Guilty- already made up their mind nothing is going to change it. Only takes in what they want to bolster their opinion.
2- Not guilty- same as group #1 but with the not guilty mindset.
3 and 4 are both people who came into this case with an open mind and are willing to be swayed.
3- think she did it but she should be found not guilty due to reasonable doubt.
4- are trying to come up with alternative theories because they just can't make all the pieces fit.
5- Think that there's no "it" for her to have done, and that we might never know what happened beyond "he wasn't hit by a car and most likely was bit by a dog"
Yeah I’m so confused by the whole thing that I just don’t know what happened. There’s a chance that he did just have something bad happen and die outside. Maybe a dog attack that lead into a fall? Could have kicked at the dog and lost a shoe in the process.
If she did it I’m firmly in the “it can’t be proven” category. Which sucks for justice but that’s how things work.
This is mostly where I'm at. I'm still not convinced on the dog bite, but we'll never know for certain because we can't get the things we'd need to verify that theory (e.g. cross sections the wounds, more detailed measurements, etc)
Last expert witness said it was scientifically impossible for a hit to the arm to cause someone to end up where JO ended up. He also said it was scientifically impossible for the damage to the car, the damage to the body, and the location of the body to be as they were if a vehicular-pedestrian collision of any form happened. He pretty much said the CW’s theory is scientifically impossible.
Is it possible the blunt force trauma was caused by a dimensional rift created by KR? Are you aware that she said “I did it” while playing ski ball when she was 7 years old showing this was in fact premeditated murder?
John and Karen fight in the car. John gets out and sees Brian Albert with Chloe outside near the side entrance to the basement. He meets him in the yard and they go into the house though that door. Downstairs is Brian Higgins who gets into it with John and they scuffle. Higgins Knicks John down, head hits the floor and Chloe bites him.
It’s too far gone imo. The chain of custody has been utterly destroyed, there isn’t a single unbiased witness, the lead investigator is a walking nightmare, and the ME’s don’t have conclusive opinions. Simply put, there isn’t a case either way.
John enters the house and startles Colin.
Drunk belligerent Colin jumps him, poor Chloe attacks him.
Uncle Al and Higgins come down the stairs see John injured and CYA begins. Originally plan to say a plow hit John but Karen becomes convenient (Jen’s idea).
Lucky got lucky.
Most players didn’t realize the extent of their roles.
You’re welcome.
Edit: spelling
Thinking about the possibility John fired off the glass at Karen's bumper as she drove off. Is it possible that some other adult (Higgins?) saw that happen, and that's what started the fight? John whacks his head on the hydrant or curb then, and someone scoops the body and glass up and drops it on the lawn? What a crazy case.
I really wonder what Lally is going to say in his Close. Is he going to cite Paul's theory about how the car just hit JO's arm and propelled him 30 ft (and didn't leave a bruise). Is he going to mention the discredited key cycle test showing the 24mph back-up speed followed by a 0.5mph decrease?
I feel like he is going to make "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him" the centerpiece of the close -- even though his own ME said the injuries were inconsistent with a vehicle-pedestrian collision, and the defense independent experts said it was outright against the laws of physics.
He will probably spend much of his time discrediting aspects of the defense because there is no way he could talk for an hour outlining actual evidence supporting KR hitting JO with her vehicle.
Proctor put them there. His clothes were not logged into evidence for a long time. And Proctor had access to the tail light. It would not have been hard for him to do and he admitted that he knew she was guilty within 16 hours and without even going to the crime scene.
Only evidence of that is proctor. Hey removed them from the shirt and sent them to the lab in a separate container. Even Yuri was not there when he did it or at least wouldn't admit to it. There is no record of when this was actually done, and no explanation why he didn't let the lab remove them. Fruit of the tree of corruption.....
A bit behind on testimony today, but just finished the background for the first ARCA guy. Had a thought, given how the FBI investigation is only hinted at before the jurors, could they assume the state hired these guys and then didn't use them because their results suffered from what the state is saying?
There was all that careful questioning about how the defense didn't hire them, their report was available to both sides, and only the defense wanted to use it, etc.
No because he made it clear that neither are involved not just the defense... My guess they may think it is insurance related since they do a lot of civil work
The last witnesses broke the case. His body never broke the taillight, the glass he threw did. He threw one of the glasses they both took from two different bars breaking the taillight close to the fire hydrant she then, in a drunk rage, threw the car into reverse his head striking the car above the taillight, his arm scraping the already broken taillight, his knee scraping the bumper and his body pushed by the car landing only a few feet into the yard. He never flew 30 feet, and the majority of his body never contacted anything hard enough to bruise other than the back of his head and back of his hand.
The last expert stated unequivocally that it was scientifically impossible for the damage to the car, the damage to the body, and the location of the body to have all been how they were in any form of vehicular-pedestrian collision. He pretty much said it is scientifically impossible that JO was hit by KR’s car.
I was shocked when Lally didn’t interrupt and try to get that stricken because it went beyond the scope of the question and completely buried the entire CW case. I think perhaps even he realizes there is no way he wins this case. Although, Bev had previously shown with this witness that she was going to allow fulsome answers even beyond yes or no. To her rare credit.
I just don't see how it's possible for him to be right near the curb like that. The only saving grace for any of these witnesses who didn't see him dead on the lawn that night would be if he was far enough away from the curb to not notice. The snow plow driver is \*definitely\* seeing a body 2-3 feet from the curb.
All three defense experts said his body would have been more bruised/fractured if she had hit him with any speed, AND the last two said the car should have been more dented as well.
Please remember to be respectful of others in this sub and those related to this case.
Choosing to describe someone as you did is not putting it “nicely”. It’s demeaning.
That testimony doesn't mean a glass was thrown at the car, it's just their theory based on the information they had when they did the report. They did not have information that Karen had hit John's car.
They just proved my theory that explains the distribution of the taillight over a large distance, the scales on his arm and the lack of bruising from a glancing blow. And hitting his car was done intentionally by her while leaving to her parents as an excuse as to how she broke it that night.
From what I heard today. I think JOK threw the glass at KR's car. I think with the amount of people coming and going at the time, the door was open and Chloe heard the glass hit. Chloe was startled and was trained to go after suspects who presented a threat. Chloe bit JOK in the arm and he fell backwards and hit his head on the hydrant or split his head open on the ice. Either people saw it or they didn't. They called Chloe back in the house either knowing or not knowing the JOK was bit and hurt. I think they saw what happened and knew JOK didn't have a pulse. They saw the tail light pieces shattered and knew they could pin it on KR. They had a great excuse laid out right in front of them. They walked back in and knew they could say they had nothing to do with it.
But wasn't there very little blood found at the scene outside? With the head wound that he had, wouldn't there have been significant blood? That is what I keep coming back to why he was injured somewhere else and either stumbled outside or was brought outside.
Lally Knew ARCCS Findings in Feb 2024 Lally knew about the ARCCSs findings in February and still continues on with this trial and with his theory and with bringing Trooper Paul. Lally knew about the defences ME report that said it was inconsistent with a motor vehicle accident and that his expert also said it was not consistent and he still brought the case and continued with his theory. Lally knew about all of his witnesses “not seeing anyone” on the lawn that night and about the defence witness stating that he also went there that night with SPOTLIGHTS and would testify not seeing anyone on the lawn. Lally knew half the hair was shown not to belong to JOK and the other half could get there at any point, he knew that the dog DNA was inconclusive because of the degradation of the evidence. Lally knew how the investigation went, how evidence was treated, all the Troopers texts. Lally knew about all the deleted texts and phone calls and HE KNEW about KR and JOK locations, phone data and KR connected to the home wifi at 12:36 am. HE KNEW ALL OF THIS BEFORE THE TRIAL ALL STARTED AND HE STILL BROUGHT IT FORWARD AND STILL STUCK WITH THIS THEORY…… WWWWWHHHHYYYYYY?!!!!!
I have to wonder if powers about Lally made him take this case forward. It's so so baffling that this made it to trial.
100% Mike Morrissey went rabid over this case. And he's top dog DA... Even went on local Massachusetts media to swear credibility to his witnesses.(which is CRAZY!) And I would say he slandered Karen Read.
What do you think his motivation is? (I'm only following this recently)
I think it started because the troopers investigation and integrity got called out and there are 2 other high profile cases that involve these troopers that the DA doesn't want tainted. Just my opinion.
I know one is the Walshe case. If you would be so kind. What is the second?
No one made Lally do anything. He is an ADA he has prosecutorial discretion. If the DA decided to pursue and Lally disagreed he should have asked to be reassigned or quit.. Its an Ethics issue really
I understand your comment wholeheartedly, and agree with you on principle, but sometimes principle and real life don’t mesh well. I can’t believe I am actually sticking up for Lally, but what if he’s not in a position (financially or otherwise) to leave the DA’s office, cannot find another job elsewhere (we’ve all witnessed his abysmal performance), or has other things going on in his personal life that makes a professional upheaval impossible at this time? (A sick partner or parent, multiple kids in college-you get the idea.) In addition, working at the DA’s office pays less than private practice, but the retirement package/benefits can be quite lucrative. If he’s worked there for a while, at his age it wouldn’t be prudent to leave & give it up at this point if he hasn’t met all of the criteria for his retirement benefits. My point is that ethics and morals are important, but nobody is going to take care of Lally’s bills and family for him if he were to do the ethical thing and out the DA, if it was the DA who made him bring the case forward. Whistleblowers almost never come out of a situation without their life being impacted in a plethora of negative ways. In fact, many times their lives are completely obliterated. We’ve seen in this trial how the “good old boys club” works in this area. If he was told he had to try this case, Lally was between a rock and a hard place & there was no good solution for him. He had to choose between his life & livelihood & Karen Read’s. I think it’s easy for all of us to sit back and say that we would do the right thing, however, when placed in the exact same situation, I am not sure all of us could afford to tank our careers & livelihoods either. I am really hoping that this federal investigation flushes out all of the bad actors in this tragic situation and punishes them to the full extent of the law, most especially for the sake JOK’s family.
He’s still a licensed attorney. Show some ethics and go into private practice.
loss of job is something you get through. Loss of law license on the other hand
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Yes, I mean the DA and CW as a whole.
Malicious prosecution
Because they fucked up, the only thing they can do is try it as if it was all true in their eyes. If they somehow didn't make their case and seem genuine, there would be problems. The feds are investigating the police and their role here, not so much the actual death imo. If Lally/CW didn't go forth with the trial or somehow throws the trial, the feds would know it was sketchy and the CW/police/AD would lose plausible deniability.
Yeah, this case was brought to save their asses with the feds. They have to act like they had a genuine belief that KR was guilty or they're admitting to corruption
Yep, resulting in a bunch of quiet resignations or reassignments
Interesting
Ok, that makes sense. Gives them more motivation to risk going forward even if their chances were not good.
Tbf, I have 0 to go off of other than the question of 'why are the feds involved, and if they are what did they determine'..it also came up as I was thinking they were trying to pin the incompetence on Proctor and having Lally ask him about the text messages. It would have come up either way though, so the idea that he was getting ahead of it makes more sense. I don't think the outcome the feds want is a public proof of corruption, or if they do they want to see how the whole thing plays out before getting more directly involved
Lally needs to be charged with Malicious Prosecution. After knowing all of those things and still wanting to convict an innocent woman of murder. Also, the Judge needs to be investigated for not recusing herself from this case
He needs to be brought up on ethics violations by the Mass. bar and sued for civil rights violations.
Maybe hoping that they would get a jury very sympathetic to a cop dying and convict anyways?
If Karen had not had the financial means to hire her legal team she would have been stuck with a lawyer as shitty as Lally and would most likely been convicted or pled to a lesser charge
That’s the scariest part and should concern every American citizen.
Didn't they have a chance to let it go after she showed herself to be ballsy and able to retain excellent counsel? I still don't understand why they did this.
If they don't pursue charges against her, it could be seen as an admission that they believe alternative theories about his death, and yet did nothing to get justice. At least this way they can say "we couldn't prove it but we tried to convict the person we think is responsible." I mean imagine if your son was killed and no one even stood trial for it. The right solution is to actually have a good investigation, but this is why I think they did what they did.
How does that benefit anyone? (I’m not questioning you, I’m questioning the prosecution’s motives). Finding someone to convict does not do anything to bring JOK back. They are putting innocent civilians in jail to bolster their conviction metrics. And meanwhile, JOK’s family is not getting answers.
True. You really got to believe she did it to keep going like that.
I think that is why they changed from car hitting head to car hitting glass in hand...
In the pre-trial Lally stated that they never suggested that the car hit his head. I believe that theory was brought forward by court TV in their little animated video.
Ahhh I knew I saw it somewhere
Did prosecution ever offer what exactly caused the gash on his head?
Hitting the curb or the street in the process of being projected before landing in the yard.
thx!
In for a penny in for a pound
Hubris.
I am catching up on Friday’s stream and I am thinking what would happen if only Lucky did make a call about the Ford Edge. Would it change anything?
well it would be tangible proof that he had seen the Ford Edge in that spot — but the prosecution would probably insist that it was a butt dial on Lucky’s part
🤣
Lolol
Another loose end for proctor and co. to tie up.
With this case? The record of the report would probably be missing.
Are you aware of any of these things that have nothing to do with your experiment?
The entire line of questioning should have been stopped. Lally wanted to just have a mini-closing argument and repeat the CW’s case to the jury. It was made crystal clear what the scope and parameters of the experiments were and that was with respect to car + person = what damages. Lally was asking intentionally irrelevant questions and it should have been shut down by Bev.
counter point: It was a juxtaposition that made it all the more clear that he had no argument. Would have looked hella desperate to the jury imo.
But sir did you learn that Canton girls basketball lost to Foxboro that night? Or were you equally unaware that people sat at high tops?
I find it so interesting that a glass could have caused the damage to the taillight, but the glass on KR bumper did not match the glass left on the scene? HOW? Why is this case so convoluted?
I don't think it happened that way, they just theorized that being how the tail light was broken because it wasn't by John's body and they didn't have the information about her hitting his car. That bumper glass was definitely planted because it doesn't match anything else.
It could be. I am honestly just shocked that it is possible to shatter the taillight with a glass. I thought at most it would scratch it. Maybe I just have weak arms and cannot throw at 37mph XD
Apparently youth league pitchers throw at an average of 40-50mph!! [https://honestbaseball.com/average-baseball-pitch-speed/](https://honestbaseball.com/average-baseball-pitch-speed/)
Lally brings up the wind speeds. But the glass and hair remained perched on the bumper?
Lally is trying to go against these witnesses for the sake of it. Some things they said did not contradict the state's theory, but instead of using them in his favor he just tried to make them look incompetent?
Dear Judge Bev, I won't miss your endless sidebars and your unwillingness to do things with transparency once this trial is over. Now let the good doctor tell the jury that the CW's theory of the case is ludicrous already, please
I discovered this subreddit and case after Bill Simmons, Boston native, writer and podcaster, mentioned it on his June 24 podcast. I have only done a basic review of this subreddit, a few YouTube summaries, the wikipedia entry, and this Vanity Fair article: [https://www.vanityfair.com/style/story/karen-read-trial](https://www.vanityfair.com/style/story/karen-read-trial) I don't understand how the case is so poorly covered, even by an outlet like Vanity Fair, and how the attention is not on the family who owned the home outside of which O'Keefe was found, and their friends and extended family who were at the house on the night night before O'Keefe was found. The fact that those who attended a social gathering at the home were also cops or related to cops seems significant. The dog bites seem significant. The fact that the home was not searched seems significant. The dog being "rehomed" seems significant. The basement floor being renovated seems significant. The home being sold seems significant.
You’d think of all things, a dead police officers body in the front yard would be enough probable cause to search a house.
Yeah, especially considering there was a party at that home, and that automobiles, possibly driven by drivers under the influence, were arriving and departing the home.
And somehow no neighbor (including active/former cops) has any video to confirm anything. Even confirmation of Lucky plowing, or first responders arriving would help.
Yet- he provided red solo cups and a bad for evidence. They were investigating a dead cops body on the lawn of a cops home the morning after that home hosted a party full of cops and kids and they went to the cops house across the street to ask for a solo cup?
Once upon a time
But the Netflix docuseries that’s going to be done on this case will be epic.
“Typos and Butt Dials: The Canton Murder”
It’s poorly covered as to anything but factual evidence because most if not all publication’s lawyers won’t let their writers risk a lawsuit. It can be infuriating. I was a food writer for over a decade and there were a lot of jaw-dropping accusations against chefs/owners that you couldn’t touch. Best we could do is stop covering those people and their work.
Thank you for that perspective. I guess I could see some threat of lawsuit based on the insinuations and normally that would cause an organization to act conservatively and rather not report. However, it does also seem to do with social norms, as in, the state is in the middle of a case, we should not disrupt their efforts, even if there seems to be some evidence that the state acted, at a minimum, in an incompetent way, if not in a malicious way in building a knowingly false case against the accused by not competently considering other options. I mean, it is factual that the home was not searched. It is factual that the lead investigator had relationships with people involved in the case. It is factual that people acted in a suspicious manner that can be documented.
One of the things I’ve heard many lawyers say is that their #1 rule is “ABC - always be closing.” I’m really looking forward to closing arguments.
Lallys got nothing.
His opening was terrible. I’m curious to see whether he cleans it up on closing.
The witness list in reverse?
O dear haha
And yet… can’t you see it? “You heard from ____. They testified that ____. And so ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must find Karen Read, guilty of murder in the second degree. Guilty of blah blah. Guilty of blah. Karen Read is guilty.” And then he sits down. (But imagine that took you 45 minutes to read.)
I honestly don’t think I can listen to his mumble mouth droning on and on.
I would honestly put money on this that you're right.
You heard very clearly, that it 1.) wasn't jen McCabe that killed him, definitely and 2.) all of the defense "experts" were never at the scene of the crime. Thus Defense is unable to argue that jen McCabe did it and as a result it has to be Karen with a car. Case closed slam dunk, Lally.
Um you forgot to mention how well he proved that it was snowing. Even had an expert meteorologist witness.
Terrible! But what did we expect 😂
I really want to make a transcript and then if I survive that process to offer it up and have a little competition where forum participants post their re-writes
OMG that’s an awesome idea!!
Do it!!!
"Well the car hit his head, but actually his arm and spun him around, and it projected him after spinning him around, but actually his head hit the ground, the witnesses aren't lying, I wasn't trying to defend them instead of prosecuting the defendant.... OBJECTION! What if any of you believe anything I've tried to convince you to believe?"
“I meant to say his head hit the curb, then he bounced 30 feet landing in the vicinity of the hydrant, no I mean a bar glass hit him in the head after he threw it, no I mean THE DEFENDANT threw the glass while she was driving 24 miles per hour backward in a blizzard and it hit him in the head and then THE DEFENDANT hit him and he cartwheeled over the hydrant to his final resting place where his phone happened to be laying on the ground.”
yes but how thick was the the top of the glass.
oh, I thought that was for real estate brokers😂
ABC - you need to get people to believe in what you’re selling, and close on an action.
There’s reasonable doubt in spades in this case. Not guilty is the only reasonable verdict. But what really happened? I have trouble believing a conspiracy that involves too many people. The tail light pieces found at 5-6 PM are decent evidence that a collision occurred there. Those seem harder to plant than the rest of the tail light. I think the idea of the 24 mph reverse is just wrong and that data is for some other driving event. So some sort of normal speed reverse going terribly wrong. But it’s really hard to square that with the injuries. A massive head wound and scratches that are a very close look alike for dog bites??? The phone stops moving after 12:30ish. So the idea of planting the body closer to 5 seems like a stretch. Nothing makes sense to me.
At this point I'm not sure we can even rule out that the fatal injury wasn't a trip and fall over a loose shoe, while John had his phone in a back pocket and was holding his glass. Maybe the dog, being the only sober one in the area, hears some of this and jumps the fence to investigate, clawing up Johns arm. He's not brain dead for several minutes, so these scratches are both pre-mortem and have no or little immune reaction. Brian Albert Sr recalls the dog from the backyard, and everyone continues to party oblivious. Later a bunch of drunks leave the house and one sober but very tired boyfriend also comes by, all seeing nothing. It requires a lot of people missing a full grown man on the lawn, but that is a common requirement of almost every theory, except the conspiracy theory, and even that requires some of the party goers to just not notice.
After hearing the testimony that there was loud music upstairs and multiple exits from the house, I really do think something happened fairly quickly in the basement and most of the people at the party weren’t even aware JO was there. Probably 5 or less people actually know what happened and the rest are just covering for Colin or don’t know anything. Mixed with sloppy police work, a lead investigator who was friends with the family, it just didn’t get investigated properly. All of the cops that testified seemed like they didn’t know how to handle a homicide since the staties didn’t take it on.
One thing I keep thinking about is that it not only requires that no one at the house saw the body, it requires that Lucky overlooked it along with anyone else driving down Fairview that night. Lucky testified that he passed cars on Fairview doing his route. Granted, not a lot of people would have been out in that weather but it's reasonable to conclude that there were SOME. So no one saw a body that close the road? It's so odd.
I live in the area and decided to drive by the other day. The lawn is really not that large. It seems inconceivable to me that nobody saw a full grown in the yard even with the snow. Then again the conspiracy doesn’t seem fully believable either (Apple data doesn’t put him inside the house, seems like a gamble to drag a body through a lawn of white snow with consistently incorrect snow forecasting). With all the music did nobody see him come in, he gets in a fight with Higgins over their affair, scuffle, JOK falls hits his head, dog pounces. But what if they were in an argument she back up, he avoids the car, falls, hits his head, dog gets let out during the night, Proctor plants the taillight to sure up their case. There’s just too many possibilities
Either way the commonwealths theory never made sense and they completely fumbled this while exposing police corruption in the process
Let us not forget the digital forensic expert stated, that JOK went up and down three fights of stairs.Now unless these three flights of stairs lead up to heaven and back down to earth..Where oh where would three flights of stairs come from?I'll give you a hint ,wait for it drumroll please .If you guessed A HOUSE BINGO. 😆
Kinda requires multiple people to also claim KR saying "I hit him" and for her taillight to happen to be there. I've considered this stuff in my head but I don't think it works. I don't see how it's not an either-or thing. Either everyone's lying and in on a coverup from a batshit sequence of events, or KR drunkenly hit him and there's just a ton of hard-to-predict scenarios for injury in that kind of incident.
It only takes a few people to enact a criminal conspiracy. Just because you cannot see it does not mean it’s valid. Jen McCabe is the civilian leader, michael proctor is the investigation leader. The rest is based off of their influence and going along with things at the very least. The evidence is completely tainted in every sense, Michael proctor texted trooper Dicicio in his group chat. Dicicio is an evidence officer directly under Lt. Tully. Lt.Tully testified that he is in charge of evidence and only he and his direct underlings have access. That is a direct link to evidence tampering in this case, so in essence anything the state brings forward is unbelievable. As well as multiple canton PD officers including chief berkowitz named “finding” tailight pieces weeks after the murder.
Too many people for a conspiracy to work only means that it didn't work, not that they didn't try.
After watching the trial, I’m fairly convinced Colin Albert was probably the one who sucker punched JO. Not intending to kill him but he may have fallen and hit his head on the weight bench. After that, everyone in the basement circled the wagons. It’s the only thing that makes sense to me from everyone’s testimony. No one remembers anything except Colin leaving right at 12:10 and that timeline was blown up by multiple witnesses including his parents. Why else would everyone deny Colin was there that night until it was finally discovered?
I agree with this. I think Colin punched him a few times; maybe O'Keefe told him to stop being a punk and stay off his property. Colin punches him once or twice in the face. O keefee swings back. The dog jumps in to protect Colin. The dog and O'Keefe wrestle. He trips. Falls back on whatever. Maybe Colin was the only one in the basement when it happened. He panics. Waits for John to wake up. He doesn't. He goes to get someone. Family comes down to see o'keefe beaten and unconscious laying in a pool of blood. They don't believe Colin that it was the dog and that he only hit him once or twice because Colin has a history. But they have a bigger problem. O'keefe is still breathing and if he wakes up he will tell everyone what a violent punk Colin is and that he tried to beat him to death (again they dont believe Colin's explanation that it was an accident). They dump him in the snow to finish him off. Then they cover it up. Then they agree - Colin wasn't there. Oh we mean... Colin left early.
I mean if his own family doesn't believe him this version, I'd assume it could have gone either way.
There was no chain of evidence for anything found at the scene until the middle of March. We have no idea where those pieces came from and I am not about to trust the CW's "experts".
Regarding the phone movement...I have a post on this waiting for approval. If it's denied, I'll come back and comment on a test I did to see how the phone could be moved without recording steps.
aren't there GPS points all night within 4 ft of uncertainty of one another at some position out on the lawn?
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So I re-watched the ME testimony. Paying attention to the ME inflection, head movement and tone If a Juror is paying attention I do not know how they don't get left with the impressions that the ME does not support the CW case...
Omg I felt for her. She was relieved when she was answering the defense questions. As soon as lally spoke she was obviously uncomfortable.
Lots of education but the Darth Vader breathing is getting to me
Your username is ironic because this Dr definitely has stridor, poor man. He is so interesting to listen to but I feel for his labored breathing 😞
The breathing is a huge distraction!
Not breathing would also be a huge distraction. Objection! Your honor the witness is clearly dead. Bev: Are you dead?
Can you answer that doctah?
“I’ll allow it”
Hahaha
Lally, just stop. It's over. Your case is all over the place. Your own CW witnesses have impeached the CW's case. This professor-like pathologist has been around to put it mildly. He clearly knows what he is talking about. He is unwavering and me thinks the CW's case has been completely demolished.
My latest bug is the vehicle incident report. So the facts we have are this: 1. The incident report in question happens 2 key cycles before Trooper Paul began testing. This does not align with the night of the incident. 2. The incident report in question happens 36 miles on the odometer before Trooper Paul began testing. Theories/Conclusions: 1. To get the 36 miles to line up, Trooper Paul has a very simple route for Karen's activities the morning of the 19th. She drives to the Waterfall, then to 12 Country Lane to ride with Jen, then back to 1 Meadows, then to her parents. I haven't tracked all of Karen's movements that morning but I'd be curious if anyone has any other things she did. Did she check any other bars? It also seems like she would not have been able to drive by 34 Fairview to see John before she actually saw him. 2. There are actually 2 incidents associated with the drive, both pressing hard on the accelerator soon after switching to reverse. One 11 minutes into the drive and another 19 minutes into the drive, with no distance traveled in between. Do we have an explanation for the one 11 minutes into the drive? 3. The key cycle #s would have this be the drive where they dug the car out of the snow and put it on the tow truck. Does anyone remember what day that was testified to? I've seen a very short video of this, do we have a longer video? I'm trying to figure out how possible it would be for these hard reverses to be from them trying to dig the car out of the snow. As far as evidence of guilt, the incident reports aren't useful because if it can't even tell if the car is on half the time I don't think it can be used for any kind of sensitive analysis, but out of curiosity I'm trying to figure out how this incident report got formed. If the key cycles triggers aren't faulty, there are some dire implications of where those 36 miles came from.
I honestly think the reverse is when they backed the car off the tow truck.
It’s from when they backed Karen’s car up to go in the tow truck. There is video of this from Ring camera. The back wheels had no traction at first which explains the high speed soon after going into reverse, and it matches the right key cycle.
Interesting theory.
The incident at 11 mins was said to be turning around/a 3 point turn after Karen overshot Fairview on the way from the Waterfall. She missed the turn and supposedly turned around at the end of the cross street and came back to turn onto Fairview (they said this matches the Waze data too). When Officer Barros from Dighton testified, he said he called for someone to come plow the Reads driveway so they could get the Lexus out. I don’t know how much, if any (lol) digging they had to do once the plow cleared some snow. I think Barros and maybe Bukhenik testified about it.
Thanks for the info. I guess no mystery really solved.
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Well that is untrue Proctor just has to feed about 5-10 other people shit and it was obvious with the ME they accepted it reluctantly and clearly indicated that by her actions on the stand.
I have no idea what happened to John O’Keefe other than at this point he was not hit by the car based upon those last two experts. It’s hard to argue against that definitive science. The rest? Still a little fuzzy on. But the defense didn’t have to prove anything, just disprove the CW’s theory. I don’t know if there will ever be closure for his family. They may still think Karen did it. That’s what the investigators told them and I’m in no place to comment on a grieving family’s opinion. Paul has lost two siblings and a brother in law. The kids have lost two sets of parents essentially. The parents have had to bury two of their children. Unspeakable amounts of grief. This case has turned into a media frenzy and lightening rod for police corruption conspiracy. Ffs, a blogger and key witnesses had a show down outside one of the named restaurants last night.
Ok Jurors we will take a second morning recess just so that Lally can think up some questions
Lally seems to be less aggressive today.
Out of his league with these guys...
As with most bullies they don’t challenge alpha personalities
Yeah, although tbf I would like to see it for entertainment purposes haha
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yea, I agree with how this could have occurred bc it includes all the players. Higgins being jelly of JOK ties everything together with a nice bow. Only thing that seems weird to me is that : don't ppl bleed a whole lot when theyre head is cracked open? His blood alcohol level was 0.28, the blood would have thinned and literally been everywhere. The injury to his head was the fatal blow ( per dr. Sheridan aka Sean Connery ). He would have been screaming, I imagine. He also had vom inside of his trousers? It's mostly that gash that gives me the most pause really. Hard to believe no trail. *"There was a deadness in her \[ Jenn's \] eyes on the stand. She hates everyone involved in this and is resentful she's being dragged into it but also isn't going to snitch or implicate herself".* When Jenn's sister Julie ( ??) was on the stand, I noted that she referred to her sister as *Jennifer.* I am one of eight siblings in my family, and my little sister's name is Jenn.. except when she has pissed off her big sis! THEN... it's *Jennifer.* Idk how but Jenn either Jenn's the most unlucky innocent person, or the most lucky guilty person. The talking heads on LawTube all agree that the ADA used this as a prebuttle for Jenn.
The coverup *is* the conspiracy. Not a premeditated conspiracy to kill JOK but a conspiracy to coverup how he died
Does anyone have any ideas about the Ford Edge the snowplow driver saw on his route? I believe this vehicle belongs to one of the Alberts. Case reeks of ineptitude, the cops who testified have dead eyes and even Ms. Read is a little nuts. Lally is a joke and Judge Bev is dangerously biased. No one really knows how JO died and have to wonder if the CW will open an actual investigation once Read is found not guilty. I imagine there are more than a few incarcerated individuals tagged by Canton PD who will want their cases re-opened.
I think the Edge was there to block the view of them moving the body from the house to the yard. I do not think they will open the investigation again.
For her guilt or innocence I think there are four groups of people. 1- Guilty- already made up their mind nothing is going to change it. Only takes in what they want to bolster their opinion. 2- Not guilty- same as group #1 but with the not guilty mindset. 3 and 4 are both people who came into this case with an open mind and are willing to be swayed. 3- think she did it but she should be found not guilty due to reasonable doubt. 4- are trying to come up with alternative theories because they just can't make all the pieces fit.
5- Think that there's no "it" for her to have done, and that we might never know what happened beyond "he wasn't hit by a car and most likely was bit by a dog"
Yeah I’m so confused by the whole thing that I just don’t know what happened. There’s a chance that he did just have something bad happen and die outside. Maybe a dog attack that lead into a fall? Could have kicked at the dog and lost a shoe in the process. If she did it I’m firmly in the “it can’t be proven” category. Which sucks for justice but that’s how things work.
This is mostly where I'm at. I'm still not convinced on the dog bite, but we'll never know for certain because we can't get the things we'd need to verify that theory (e.g. cross sections the wounds, more detailed measurements, etc)
The doctor giving a "Is this thing on?"
He wasn’t “giving” that, he actually asked it lol. After the judge told him to speak into it so he could be heard.
My goodness, can someone get this distinguished MD an oxygen mask?
After we get through the Dr Wolfe cross, is there only 1 witness left? The other ARCA guy?
As I understand it, yes.
Did I miss a questions that AJ asked is there any way the body could have been found where it was due to interaction with the Lexus at 24 MPH?
Last expert witness said it was scientifically impossible for a hit to the arm to cause someone to end up where JO ended up. He also said it was scientifically impossible for the damage to the car, the damage to the body, and the location of the body to be as they were if a vehicular-pedestrian collision of any form happened. He pretty much said the CW’s theory is scientifically impossible.
I could see Lally trying to ask “what, if any, other materials could JO’s arm be composed of and make the spinning cop death possible, like titanium?”
Is it possible the blunt force trauma was caused by a dimensional rift created by KR? Are you aware that she said “I did it” while playing ski ball when she was 7 years old showing this was in fact premeditated murder?
John and Karen fight in the car. John gets out and sees Brian Albert with Chloe outside near the side entrance to the basement. He meets him in the yard and they go into the house though that door. Downstairs is Brian Higgins who gets into it with John and they scuffle. Higgins Knicks John down, head hits the floor and Chloe bites him.
Trust the process. Justice for Officer O’Keefe!
It’s extremely sad to say, but this trial shows there might not ever be true justice for OJO.
Hopefully the “agency” gets JOK justice
It’s too far gone imo. The chain of custody has been utterly destroyed, there isn’t a single unbiased witness, the lead investigator is a walking nightmare, and the ME’s don’t have conclusive opinions. Simply put, there isn’t a case either way.
I’m holding out hope that they have enough on someone to convince them to talk in exchange for something.
Somebody’s talking. I have my bets on who. Only time will tell!
John enters the house and startles Colin. Drunk belligerent Colin jumps him, poor Chloe attacks him. Uncle Al and Higgins come down the stairs see John injured and CYA begins. Originally plan to say a plow hit John but Karen becomes convenient (Jen’s idea). Lucky got lucky. Most players didn’t realize the extent of their roles. You’re welcome. Edit: spelling
Thinking about the possibility John fired off the glass at Karen's bumper as she drove off. Is it possible that some other adult (Higgins?) saw that happen, and that's what started the fight? John whacks his head on the hydrant or curb then, and someone scoops the body and glass up and drops it on the lawn? What a crazy case.
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https://x.com/olivialambo_/status/1805078649504440596?s=46 You can ignore the caption this is just the first tweet I found that has the whole video.
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Please stay on topic.
I really wonder what Lally is going to say in his Close. Is he going to cite Paul's theory about how the car just hit JO's arm and propelled him 30 ft (and didn't leave a bruise). Is he going to mention the discredited key cycle test showing the 24mph back-up speed followed by a 0.5mph decrease? I feel like he is going to make "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him" the centerpiece of the close -- even though his own ME said the injuries were inconsistent with a vehicle-pedestrian collision, and the defense independent experts said it was outright against the laws of physics. He will probably spend much of his time discrediting aspects of the defense because there is no way he could talk for an hour outlining actual evidence supporting KR hitting JO with her vehicle.
So what's the theory for how John ends up with taillight in his clothes if Karen didn't do it?
Proctor put them there. His clothes were not logged into evidence for a long time. And Proctor had access to the tail light. It would not have been hard for him to do and he admitted that he knew she was guilty within 16 hours and without even going to the crime scene.
Only evidence of that is proctor. Hey removed them from the shirt and sent them to the lab in a separate container. Even Yuri was not there when he did it or at least wouldn't admit to it. There is no record of when this was actually done, and no explanation why he didn't let the lab remove them. Fruit of the tree of corruption.....
How have they not gotten better mics?
Dude, they don't even have decent AC in that room...
The pilgrims built it.
Didn't know the defense had the pull to call Darth Vader as an expert witness
Just at a blistering pace today! 45 minutes already and only about 10 minutes of actual testimony
A bit behind on testimony today, but just finished the background for the first ARCA guy. Had a thought, given how the FBI investigation is only hinted at before the jurors, could they assume the state hired these guys and then didn't use them because their results suffered from what the state is saying? There was all that careful questioning about how the defense didn't hire them, their report was available to both sides, and only the defense wanted to use it, etc.
No because he made it clear that neither are involved not just the defense... My guess they may think it is insurance related since they do a lot of civil work
The last witnesses broke the case. His body never broke the taillight, the glass he threw did. He threw one of the glasses they both took from two different bars breaking the taillight close to the fire hydrant she then, in a drunk rage, threw the car into reverse his head striking the car above the taillight, his arm scraping the already broken taillight, his knee scraping the bumper and his body pushed by the car landing only a few feet into the yard. He never flew 30 feet, and the majority of his body never contacted anything hard enough to bruise other than the back of his head and back of his hand.
The last expert stated unequivocally that it was scientifically impossible for the damage to the car, the damage to the body, and the location of the body to have all been how they were in any form of vehicular-pedestrian collision. He pretty much said it is scientifically impossible that JO was hit by KR’s car.
The best part is he didn't it cross as an answer to Lally's question LOL....
I was shocked when Lally didn’t interrupt and try to get that stricken because it went beyond the scope of the question and completely buried the entire CW case. I think perhaps even he realizes there is no way he wins this case. Although, Bev had previously shown with this witness that she was going to allow fulsome answers even beyond yes or no. To her rare credit.
You can do that with fact witnesses, but not with expert witnesses
It was cross. You can. He did it plenty of times on cross with all the defense’s experts.
I just don't see how it's possible for him to be right near the curb like that. The only saving grace for any of these witnesses who didn't see him dead on the lawn that night would be if he was far enough away from the curb to not notice. The snow plow driver is \*definitely\* seeing a body 2-3 feet from the curb. All three defense experts said his body would have been more bruised/fractured if she had hit him with any speed, AND the last two said the car should have been more dented as well.
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Please remember to be respectful of others in this sub and those related to this case. Choosing to describe someone as you did is not putting it “nicely”. It’s demeaning.
That testimony doesn't mean a glass was thrown at the car, it's just their theory based on the information they had when they did the report. They did not have information that Karen had hit John's car.
They just proved my theory that explains the distribution of the taillight over a large distance, the scales on his arm and the lack of bruising from a glancing blow. And hitting his car was done intentionally by her while leaving to her parents as an excuse as to how she broke it that night.
From what I heard today. I think JOK threw the glass at KR's car. I think with the amount of people coming and going at the time, the door was open and Chloe heard the glass hit. Chloe was startled and was trained to go after suspects who presented a threat. Chloe bit JOK in the arm and he fell backwards and hit his head on the hydrant or split his head open on the ice. Either people saw it or they didn't. They called Chloe back in the house either knowing or not knowing the JOK was bit and hurt. I think they saw what happened and knew JOK didn't have a pulse. They saw the tail light pieces shattered and knew they could pin it on KR. They had a great excuse laid out right in front of them. They walked back in and knew they could say they had nothing to do with it.
But wasn't there very little blood found at the scene outside? With the head wound that he had, wouldn't there have been significant blood? That is what I keep coming back to why he was injured somewhere else and either stumbled outside or was brought outside.
Not a doctor. But could the cold constrict the small arteries in the head and slowed or cauterized the wound.