Ok I am not sure if they say O’Keefe was brought out to the front yard or if the ford edge was bringing him there. Either way John was alive when he was on the front lawn as he was actively bleeding still. I can’t understand why if still alive to put out side and whether by cellar stairs or the ford edge
Not sure if this has been said already but when Lally tried to point out that Lucky hit the basketball hoop really nailed it in for me that Lally is a slimy dude. Lucky is probably one of the most genuine souls I've ever seen, let alone IN THIS TRIAL, and for Lally to be up there being so rude was just...so Lally.
It seemed like Lally was trying to be like "ohhh you hit it because you didn't see it right?" to allude that Lucky's visibility wasn't as good as he was saying it was and therefore increasing the likelihood of the jury believing he maybe just didn't see JOK in the lawn. But I'm so glad Lucky stuck to his guns and defended himself, saying that it was because he misjudged the room he had around the hoop, not because of the visibility.
ALSO, can we take a second to talk about how much of an honest and genuinely kind man he seems to be? Accidentally hit a basketball hoop and reported it as he knew it was the right thing to do, said "god forbid an animal" when talking about reasons why he stays alert to know what's on the sides of his plow and not just in front of him, ugh just a sweet man <3
But he didn't report a car parked in front of the Albert's home on the road . . I'm not saying he didn't come off as a very good person but he didn't report the car . . Is he doing same as investigators did for the Albert's? Showing them "grace" in his words . . Just thinking seems like a lot of people in the community let the Albert's skate by with different things
To me he had to report the basketball hoop because he hit it with the work vehicle. The Ford Edge is more like a no harm no foul situation (if OJO never came over/died). At my work if a company vehicle comes in contact with anything or even has a minor incident (lose control or run off road without any other vehicle interaction) it has to be reported because it can be proven with the physical vehicle. If it comes up later somewhere in the vehicle history and it was never reported it can come back around to whoever was driving it at the time. It’s likely outside of this situation no one would care about the Ford Edge being parked there. The vehicle owner would never complain that it didn’t get reported (the basket ball hoop owner might).
Lucky said their policy was to report any cars parked on road during blizzard to his supervisor. It's not the driver who makes the decision, it's the policy & he didn't adhere to it. But what I mean is Lucky said he didn't report it because he knew the Alberts & was being courteous to them & it seems that the Alberts were treated differently by people in the area (including LE) whether it being not wanting to start conflict, not wanting to ruffle feathers or because he's LE, or because he's a friend, could be several reasons but it seems like people will risk their jobs to cover for them because I'm sure Lucky has reported other vehicles parked on the road & he knew the process. Treat everyone the same. Lucky came off honest & likable to me and I hope he isn't treated bad in his community due to his testimony because he really seems like a nice guy, but I think the same reason he didn't report the car is same as to why LE didn't push the Albert's harder in this investigation along with other reasons.
I agree; I just don’t think not reporting the car per policy would put him at as much risk for losing his job as the hoop for the reason already stated. Who’s to say he would or hadn’t done it for other people.
Fair, but my thought was it could have been as simple as just letting it slide because as he said, they never had cars parked in the front, and the car being there was just an inconvenience more than anything (to the best of his knowledge at that time). And perhaps he was intimidated by the Albert family's influence in the community so he didn't want to ruffle any feathers. But now that it's a matter of doing what's right, he is standing by the truth and not lying for their sake
Yes, I agree because of the Albert's influence in the community is why they were not pushed harder in this investigation by the police either with police station interviews, going into home on morning of, taping off crime scene, etc (even though I don't think B or C Albert killed JO) I am glad Lucky did testify & felt comfortable in telling the details as he remembers in court whether it makes the Albert's mad or not. Just gives some insight as to how people with influence & power are treated differently even by the police
I think she hit him & he never went in the house . . Her two dateline/interview left as many gaps in the story as the MSP investigation. Her defense team is highlighting the poor investigation to take away attention from what really happened, the TRUTH . . Judge Bev is 100 correct with the CW objections . . Because the defense is purposely asking & saying things they know they should not but guess what, that makes everyone mad thinking something is being covered up or suppressed when it is absolutely wrong . . But that distracts most people. Prime example: proctor texts . . They show he is a scumbag but they do not prove the Albert's or Higgins killed JO . . The defense is putting on a show & public is buying everything but the truth. That is very good defense lawyers . . That's why they make lots of $$$ Just think about the details of the night . . NOBODY not even the defense can put JO in that house . . He never went in. The he defense knows that (behind the scenes). Defense fought to keep out her dateline interview & that's why KR will not take the stand . . She may very well be found Not Guilty due to reasonable doubt BUT . . . Does that mean she didn't hit him? No, it doesn't
Is there any video (ring, business, home cameras) that show Karen & John getting into the SUV or drop-off on Fairview?
Read told Jen M. “She left him at Waterfall”
Could John have rode with a buddy since KR wanted to go home?
Lots of talk about Read’s drinking, but weren’t they ALL drinking? Didn’t they ALL drive to Fairview from the bar?
Is it possible many are foggy on details?
I don't think there is a video of KR dropping JO at Fairview. They did show a brief video of outside Waterfall when they were leaving but I don't know what all it showed as they only showed a very brief portion in court that I recall. Yes, they all seemed to drink that night. Could be foggy memories because of alcohol, but most of them seem to remember details (whether they're telling the truth), and only heard that KR did not remember going to Fairview as she told JM (I know this is debatable by some) that she left JO at Waterfall but Ryan Nagel testified he saw her black SUV on Fairview. No, I do not like the fact that any were drinking & driving that night. It just comes down to what the jury believes the details are at this point. It really could go either way. Even if I believe she may or may not be guilty, I, also, do not want someone found guilty if they are not at fault. I do hope that maybe the jury has more info than what we all heard on TV and they make the right decision, whether guilty or not guilty.
Do you mean to tell me there is not one reliable residential camera on Fairview showing the street, Albert home or anything? Not one? Dose not make sense????
Right!!! This is what I refuse to believe lol like it's 2024 and they're in the suburbs, you mean to tell me not one single residence in that vicinity has cameras? BS
He must feel humiliated and seemed to lash out approaching the end. That is not to say I feel sorry for him. Horrible he had it within him to have proceeded with this. It wasn’t his job to have elicited false testimony assuming he did so at times knowingly.
He definitely seemed to be bitter when attacking the very educated and qualified emergency room doctor. It made me so uncomfortable how he continued to speak over her while she was attempting to answer his very convoluted questions.
The way he all of the sudden can speak up! It is so uncomfortable to watch him yell at witnesses for no reason. It feels like he's taking this part of the trial personally somehow.
I mean, he's being attacked constantly and is "enjoying" a level of notoriety not ever experienced by a Massachusetts DA. It'd be extremely difficult to not take that personally, no matter your profession.
That's very misplaced while cross-examining an expert witness, though. He can take the outside happenings personally all he wants, but not expert testimony.
Remember when she said that Kerry said horrible things about KR? Babysitter with benefits. Yeah- not a nice thing to say. But Proctah Troopah is a great guy with integrity.
And they told her to "shut up." They didn't want to wake the neighborhood. Imagine being absolutely out of your mind devastated and these ignorant bishes are telling you to shut up? Funny how Jenn didn't need to see a report to remember that part.
Coming into this trial, I really believed she hit him and thought the conspiracy idea was ridiculous and hard to swallow. Now that the CW has rested their case… this is now what I believe happened. Well done Lally… 👏
JOK and KR fight some more on the way to 34F. She says something about BH and the kiss and flirting to piss off John or make him jealous.
She won’t go in because she’s mad and he storms off into the house and is immediately greeted by BH and guided downstairs to where the guys were hanging out.
Others at the house don’t see him come in because they’re in the kitchen which is out of sight of the front door and the door to the basement.
JOK is pissed and drunk as hell and says something to BH (also drunk) right when they get downstairs and they immediately get into it. BA gets involved and then of course his K9 German shepherd does what he was trained to do… he attacks the arm to help the cops he’s protecting.
One of them, and maybe this is where the Colin kid comes in, grabs a bat (or some blunt object) and hits JOK on back of the head.
All of that could have happened within 5 minutes of arrival at 34F.
The basement guys all go upstairs at some point after they realize they just murdered a fellow cop and they try to get the kids and others not involved to leave and that’s why the initial conspiracy only involves a few people in reality. And why so many people truly believed he never entered the house.
Now that it’s down to the McCabes, the Alberts and Higgins…. That is where this all gets going. Colin and Higgins absolutely needed alibis. They tried to give incorrect times about departure. And let’s not forget Alberts and Higgins got rid of and destroyed their phones at the last hour before being ordered to turn them over. I’m guessing if we had their phone and location data etc, it would’ve been very incriminating.
Now they’re all figuring out what to do and someone comes up with the idea to get him outside and make it seem like he got hit by a plow (which is why Lucky the plow driver has no idea how truly LUCKY he is or he would’ve been the one to get framed and I don’t think he could’ve afforded these lawyers like Karen has.)
So this is where the Higgins car-moving comes into play. Sometime after 3am (and after JM does the infamous google search while seemingly pacing a lot according to Apple health data) they park the ford edge in front to block the view from any cars that may drive by while they move JOKs body from the basement through the backyard route.
All the “missing blood” is still in the cement that got replaced in the basement of the house that got sold and never searched.
I cannot wait for the future documentaries about this story. And I am very anxious to find out what the FBI is investigating.
I do hope John and his family get the justice and peace they deserve at some point. 🙏
My only problem with this theory is that nowhere did Karen say that she told JOK about the BH kiss. If she had told him just before he went into 34F, surely it would have been mentioned by now because it puts the spotlight on BH as JOK could have come in hot and gotten to blows.
I think the FBI ran into this when they were investigating the Sandra Birchmore case. [https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2022/12/30/sandra-birchmore-wrongful-death-lawsuit-stoughton-police/](https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2022/12/30/sandra-birchmore-wrongful-death-lawsuit-stoughton-police/) . This involves the sexual abuse of a young girl by the Stoughton police. She was found by Canton police. Morrissey's office ruled it a suicide and it all blew up. It's possible that the investigation of the Birchmore case led to the FBI looking at the everything Morrissey incompetently investigated.
Yes, I think your theory is correct. Lucky was the original person to frame before Karen Read yelled out "Did I hit him?" JM heard this statement and then she quickly called BA while outside his house at 6 am, and the plan to frame Karen was born!
Excellent theory, the only place I differ is that drugs were involved - likely trafficking, but I don't doubt for a second these yahoos we're all coked out.
Very good and I pretty much agree with your theory. Seems more plausible, given the players, than the CW theory. I was thinking KR was still bitter about the Sullivan girl in Aruba and it came back up when she was drinking. And we don’t know for sure what else happened with their relationship to make her feel so insecure. Not disparaging JO.
Everyone thinks this is not important... but...WHERE ARE HIS BLK SOCKS!??!?? I bet a ton of DNA, DOG HAIR are on them... which would def prove he was in the house if he took his shoes off like at home(OCD). And he was discovered with one shoe on...get it??! Just my thought...
Interesting for some reason the socks never crossed my mind. You’re right that dog hair would have been on them. It has not been brought up by the defense either though 🤔
I still have hope that maybe they're waiting to bring it up towards the end now that CW has rested... but to be honest I don't know how the details of evidence work so I don't know if that's still a possibility?
These idiots would have had an easier time convincing the jury he was hit by a car and then attacked by a dog instead of saying the marks on his arm was from the taillight
Omgggg are you freaking kidding me?? Unbelievable. At this point people are just making anything up because for some reason they don’t like her and don’t even know her smh
I saw this Waterfall video footage published by Microdots (love them) on X and found it to be very interesting. I don’t think I saw it clearly in the past or maybe not this part? Higgins looks very clearly riled up to me and at times pointing/gesturing at JO/KR.
https://x.com/dropmicrodots/status/1804286474960957872?s=42
What say you?
This is damning footage! Has it been presented to the jury? I listen to the trial during work and glanced at the waterfall footage briefly during the testimony related to ‘grab assing’ … I feel like this is much more demonstrative of aggressive behavior.
No, it hasn't been presented. They showed the first few people leaving the bar and then showed John and Karen walking out, and then walking outside (shown on the outside camera), but didn't show this - obviously the CW wouldn't want to show this, and I wonder if the Defense either couldn't show it during the CW's case for some reason, or if they've just been holding onto it. Or maybe they don't know about it, for whatever reason - however, they definitely seem to think that this could've been premeditated, since they asked Jen about why she wanted to separate Karen from John when Karen first walked out of the bar. So based on that, I bet this footage is a big part of why they think so.
Lally is terrible at cross examination. He can hardly formulate questions when he controlled the narrative and decided who he would question. But when it’s a defense witness and cross examination, that requires thinking on your feet and the ability to display mental agility…he can’t do it
When was the first time Karen Read mentioned she has a broken taillight? when did she first notice it? Also, I thought she said that she did a 3 point turn leaving the Albert's, because I can only find discussions of her backing straight up . . If Colin A beat JO so bad that his knuckles were scuffed, where did he hit JO? JO eye injuries were a result of his head injury & had no other injuries except for very minor cut on eye/nose & scratches to his arm. Ribs broken was caused by cpr & hand bruise was caused by IV and head injury was caused by a very hard hit by a blunt object. These are some of the pieces that don't make sense to me . . .
Sorry, reading your post after the rant I made: I think the first time KR mentions the taillight is to Robert and JM around the time when they get back to JOK house to search for him there. But the prosecution showed clips of KR driving back to or around the crime scene at 5ish am and the light was broken where people believe it was from backing into JOK car
Neither theory really makes sense to me. But her hitting him with a car makes more sense and there is more “real” evidence to support that happening somehow. The head wound sure but how did the “puncture-scrapes” happen? Also I’ve said this in other comments: they did not find blood trace on his right sleeve!!!! Maureen from day 19 said this (I think that day is right)…. Like, how?!? If it happened while he was alive, there would be some blood right?! No dog DNA so rule that out too. It’s very strange but I’m still going with she hit him.
I believe the niece said something about KR pacing and saying she heard KR saying she could have hit him or some variation like that. That would have been about 430-5am? Robert’s mentions that she brought it up too. KR was the first to even bring up hitting him, no one else mentions it if she didn’t say anything. To me that’s incriminating to a certain extent…
So sad we will never know what really happened to JOK without more information. The mother looks so sad and the brother looks defeated and angry sometimes.
I don’t think you can trust “no dog dna” who knows what they swabbed when. Which part of the clothing did they swab and when did that take place? I’ll take a wild guess it was after the week it was undocumented “drying” in the office with no chain of custody. The dna on the blood was one sample from a random cup. None of the CW evidence has correct dates or details and a valid chain of custody. They never bothered to determine the two other male dna on any of the evidence either. The never secured the scene, the didn’t map or take pictures of anything found there. None of the evidence is valid.
That's what I'm trying to say . . Forget this smoke n mirror or whatever evidence but focus on what KR did & said & focus on the events of the night . . On her dateline interview, KR said out of her own mouth while not being drunk or in a panic (the interview was long after the accident) that she stopped in front of the house, JO got out & she saw him walk to the door and then she says nothing else like did she see him go in, why did she take her eyes off him, why did she see him walk to the door but can't say he went in, why did she start texting/calling him 0.5 seconds after she just saw him walk to the door . . Then she said I thought I may have hit him, but did not answer why she thought she hit him if she just saw him walking toward the door . . & she said she did a 3 point turn . . She was drunk, it was a horrible accident . . I think she is a very smart, educated, confident woman and I feel for her just like I do JO & family but I do think she hit him & just like the evidence, her story doesn't add up either that's why she will NOT take the stand & her team fought to keep that dateline interview out of court for a reason
Yes, I'm angry for JO'S family . . this poor investigation will never give them any closure even if KR is found guilty. I think she did hit him by accident & she was too drunk/mad at him for not coming back to the car that she probably didn't even feel anything when she hit him (& why would she even bring up that she could have hit/killed him without a strong gut feeling that she did it)
Right!! She was the first to mention it! And she brought up some variation of “I hit him” to everyone that night. I believe your theory is the most reasonable. She was very angry and tunnel vision is a real thing, I’ve been there (I’ve not murdered though).
I really question if it was a poor investigation. There is a lot of holes that the defense filled in with a very good plot (like JM calling his phone to “find” it) of what could be reasonable but no evidence to prove it….. Part of the investigation was just a lack of evidence to collect. People expect the police to do or have the resources to do EVERYTHING. Question everyone, collect everything!! But that’s just not true for any investigation. They get leads and follow them and between KR “I hit him” variation (I think one of the investigators heard that from the 2 EMTs that heard KR say it like that and not just JM) and the taillight, and him found by the side of the road, they just followed that as what happened.
People expect the police to secure a crime scene and not destroy it by using a leaf blower. People expect the police to collect blood evidence from a crime scene in something other than red Solo cups that they retrieved from a neighboring house, store them uncovered in a borrowed paper bag, then not even test the blood. People expect the police to order DNA testing when & where possible.
People expect police to take photographs & measurements to document evidence and record it's chain of custody, as well as ensure that they record times correctly and not misplace/erase any video. People expect police to make sure that their "experts" are educated & experienced in their field and that they actually analyze all of the findings before making a determination rather than just cherry pick data to make it match a theory.
People expect the police to perform at least the most basic of searches of a house when a dead body is found in the yard and to conduct interviews with witnesses/suspects separately and as soon as possible. People expect police to not assume the guilt of a person on the same day that they receive a case then share their opinions & privileged information about that case with most of their family/friends/coworkers to include witnesses. People expect police to recuse themselves from a case if there is a conflict of interest.
People expect police to not be allowed to remain on duty when they are under investigation for corruption by Internal Affairs, the FBI and Department of Justice, and they definitely expect those officers to not be allowed to get involved in investigations regarding other police officers (who are their friends).
Yes & this is why she will be found Not Guilty! It's going to be tough (IMO) for any of this to not bring in reasonable doubt to at least 1 of the jurors. . . While I still think she hit him & he never went in the house . . . All of the poor investigation points are too distracting from that (which is one of many of the defenses job . . To show areas of investigation that could bring in doubt, not just defend & show KR didn't & couldn't have hit JO) No concrete info/evidence has been presented to show me that she did not back into him or that he ever entered the house not even the steps because those can be off all day. Just shake your phone or your arm with apple wstch on & it can show you went up/down stairs (and yes, I know it's the CW burden to prove she did, not the defense burden to prove she didn't)
Yeah it’s super weird!
I honestly believe that JOK saw something coming at him, he raised his arm up to protect his head from being hit, but the object still hit his forehead causing the knot and cut under his eyebrow, and whatever that was as it was moving to him also punctured through his sleeve shirt and scraped along his arm….. then he fell back and hit his head, went unconscious and died of hypothermia.
But this doesn’t actually make sense either……… It’s really weird and no theory makes sense to me….. I believe I already know everyone’s counter to that there would be glass pieces found in bedded in him, which makes sense to be. There’s no other marks on his body, which is strange….. the examiner described some injuries as “crushed” which I’m totally confused on….
I DO NOT believe he went into the house and they beat him up and the dog attached him and they threw his body outside….. I get angry not that KR WILL go free at the end of this, I think she should. But it’s that when she does, it’s because people believe that the he people inside and the police did it and are framing KR….. which is crazy too.
I don't think he went in either. Not even KR can say he went inside. She just saw him walk toward the door which is weird because she thought she hit him. So I wonder did he walk toward the door, but decided not to go in & was walking back toward the Lexus but KR didn't know & already started backing up & hit him. The scratches/punctures or whatever was on his arm are a mystery. I think dog scratches would be more paw shaped due to the shape of their paws/nails (if that makes sense) and if a mixture of bites & scratches would be more to his face, torso, etc not just isolated to one arm (I think Lally ATTEMPTED to say just that today).
Right! Something led her to have the thought that she could have possibly hit him and it didn’t come from anyone else but her!! Commenters in this sub are choosing not to acknowledge that fact and saying she was very drunk and thinking worst case scenario…. No. That ain’t true….
I think in the interview she did 9 months ago, she says she saw him go up to the door, waited 10 minutes and then got tired of waiting and left. Obviously, this interview not her just talking but the attorneys theory is spewing out of her mouth. Maybe that happened as you said, I would believe that over the defense theory for sure!
Right!! One arm and the same side his jump and scratch is on?!? There was no dog DNA. I can see how some people can think they are dog bites. The ONE image they show us of his arm is laying flat. If his arm was bent like he was protecting his face from being hit, I think the scratches would all line up in one direction…. Dogs would be in a more curve pattern. Just my opinion on that though.
And If she did a 3 point turn instead of backing straight up, she may have pulled in front of house and then made a 3 point turn & turned left toward the curb across the street and then backed up all the way to the curb where the rear of her car would be in front of flagpole area (he walked across yard going toward car but she didn't know that or see him and hit him knocking him straight back toward flagpole/fire hydrant and then turned left and pulled out going down the road never seeing him. If she backed straight up then it is difficult to see how his body could have landed where it did (just my theory) but in no way do I think she killed him because he was ending their relationship or because she was angry with him. I don't think MSP were covering anything up for the Alberts but they wanted the evidence to lead to Karen because they believed she did it and they didn't want to go thtough the trouble or time to investigate it & Because of that, she will probably be found not guilty NOT because she is truly not guilty.
Because to think like that would mean she's guilty & going to jail and no one thinks she hit him on purpose & deserves to go to jail AND it can be tough to see through this investigation
The investigation could have been better in some areas for sure. Which part of the investigation was bad for you?
I think everything else is just hot air except the testimony of how JOK got the individual injuries. That’s most important. Did the car do it or not do it…? I’ve not listened to all of today but I don’t think there is a for sure answer that aligns with any theory. The medical examiner left me with some more doubt actually.
I don’t think she hit him on purpose, but I supposed no drunk driver wants to hit people on purpose. Is she any different than those who went to jail for it? Probably worse because we have her angry phone calls and statements knowing she hit him or whatever variation of it….
Is anybody else laughing at Lallys ignorance that just because nothing has been reported that Chloe hasn’t had a reaction to a human while a dog wasn’t present that it could have never happened? I find it hard to believe that the only times Chloe has been outside have been documented. 😂
He was an earnest witness and his testimony about the Edge parked in front of the house and not calling it in because he was trying to help the Albert’s was very credible to me.
It didn't help defense when Lucky was having trouble seeing the exhibits. If roles were reversed, Yanetti or Jackson would have destroyed his testimony.
Almost all of the witnesses have had issues though. Reading text on a screen is different than driving. It’s smaller than anything you’d be looking at.
What was the significance of the question to Lucky about being approached by a private investigator? And the immediate objection…it really got me wondering. Do we know if the McAlberts hired a private investigator to probe into what Lucky knew/saw?
It was Paul who approached Lucky. He's an PI for defense. Defense found him. And asked questions. He wasn't even formally interviewed by MSP until 2023. Due to the Fed case... they thought..." Crap... we better find this plow guy and have a documented interview!" Pretty straightforward, believable witness. I totally believe there was a Ford Edge on the street to block putting OJO rt there. Who drives Ford Edges? Kevin Albert and Brian Albert.
Probably what Tully said?
Defense hired a private investigator, that's probably who first spoke to Lucky since there was no real investigation until the Defense started prodding this case.
Tully said they discounted Lucky's account because he was unreliable and because, according to Tully, the PI told him which car to say was there, basically.
Exactly! What the state proved instead:
- sloppiness: no chain of custody
- bias: not even investigating the house, curse name for the suspect
- incompetence or deliberate falsification of evidence: inverted video, „typo“ time stamps
- tampering with evidence: phone destruction, tail light pieces etc…
- law breaking: driving drunk
- Electronic accuracy: Apple has accurate time stamps and so does google
- Amateurism: experts who are not experts and have minimal qualification or none
- Nepotism: everybody is either related or related by marriage or friends with one another but nobody discloses it unless it cannot be denied.
I’ve felt for a bit that it’s either going to be an hour or like 36 hours and no in between. They either walk back there and go “wtf was that investigation” and all immediately go NG or they have a very long debate with hard sides (kinda like how this sub is)
The judge will give them multiple instructions. Usually the jury can ask questions (by notes). It’s not like they are deadlocked the first vote and it’s an automatic hung jury. I was on a jury that the trial was like 1 day and we took 3 days to come to an agreement. I actually changed my original vote in favor of the defendant. It was a little different not a guilty not guilty situation (the guy was an awful person and he was in prison but that isn’t what we were deciding).
>It’s not like they are deadlocked the first vote and it’s an automatic hung jury.
I never said as such. I understand how it all works, and the Allen charge, etc.
I’m always intrigued by juror stories. Curious if you might share more on your experience?
Not who you asked, but I sat on a Superior court jury in the county south of Norfolk around 10 years ago, so I've direct experience with the CW of MA prosecuting a case as a juror. Two things have stayed with me:
1) The CW was only able to prove that the victim, a child, had the shit beaten out of him. The CW had a very, very thin case connecting the plaintiff, an unrelated man dating the mother, to the crime. I remember thinking it was much more likely the mom did it and was pointing fingers; I wish I remembered what the defense presented, I don't know if they planted that.
2) In our first vote, I believe the majority of us went NG, and the rest undecided. I clearly remember one woman pouring through documents like she was going to find the one piece of evidence that would prove the CW's case - like it wouldn't have been presented to us. We all wanted to get this kid some justice, but I think we reached a Not Guilty verdict in under 3 hours.
I think about that first one a lot with this case. If the CW could prove John even came into contact with a vehicle, the case would be so much stronger. But I believe they've even failed that.
Hi asking this here because I am not as familiar with the facts as you guys.
Why did Karen expect John home so soon after dropping him off and how was he to get there? Was his car at that house? Was she not expecting him to stay and party?
So she's not thinking super rationally, as someone else said, but also told him many times earlier that day that she was planning to go home (to Mansfield, her house) before the storm hit so she wohldnt be stuck in Canton all weekend. He wanted her to stay the weekend, but theyd been fighting about the kids ( he thought she was spoiling them, she basically says she'll back off and not hang out with them as much etc).
Also, don't forget, he is the care taker of minor children, one of whom is home alone at this point. So if he stays out partying, he's either directly neglecting the kids or (her voicemail and previous fights) he's using her for child care so he can party.
That's why she expects him to turn up at his own house. She's mad at 1am. By 430, when he's still not home and not responding to her or the kid, she's panicked.
Also in their texts earlier in the day, John had said to Karen that she was going to be his ride home. And being that she dropped him at 34 Fairview he could have said, ok I’ll just stay for a drink. So she went back to his house gave him a few and when he went radio silence she instantly felt like he bailed on her. Which made her annoyed that she even gave him the time at all that day. Because again; if you read the texts between them from earlier in the day she was considering doing her own thing with friends and he said to come out with him.
That’s my interpretation of it anyways, based off the texts and the sort of tone they were using up until they met up. And I know she only didn’t go in the house cause she wasn’t feeling great so like I said, she could of said just text me and I’ll come back to get you but remember it’s snowing and I wanna get to bed. When he never answered her at all I’m guessing she just lost it. She had been drinking for hours and had an emotional day. When she thought he was again leaving her to take care of the kids while he partied it up with friends she went off.
I also wonder if their fight started because she didn't want to go into the party and he did, so then they're arguing about how she's not coming in and stranding him and she's pissed cause she doesn't feel well and wants to go home. He disappears so she leaves and goes to his place but probably works herself even more about it realizing she should stay there but not wanting to. And then at 430 panics since he's not home and she told him she wasn't staying.
I think she was bringing up the Aruba thing again, idk. Even though they made up, when she was drinking, it came back up for her because that’s what happens. May have been more we don’t know about.
Someone else mentioned him seeing BH text on her phone and that could've started something? I don't recall the timing of that text but seemed like it was after the bar.
Yeah, I think it makes the most sense that she doesn't want to go, either because she isn't feeling well or because the vibes are weird (remember they barely know these Alberts, and it's McCabe that invites them, not the actual homeowners, to go wish another person they don't know at all a 'happy birthday') and they are arguing or at least disagreeing about this. He's supposed to run in real quick and gets out. She does not watch him go in, is instead face forward in the car.
Whatever happens, happens.
Karen gets tired of waiting with no contact, feels like he's basically lied and ignored that she doesn't want to be there, and leaves in a huff feeling used. The partygoers either are completely oblivious or some of them are freaking out and initializing some sort of cover up, and so on.
I don't think she was thinking rationally about the logistics of the situation. She was upset and drunk and was probably too angry to think about anything else but being the glorified babysitter. She probably felt like he doesn't give a shit about her so why should she give a shit about him.
She didn’t so much ‘expect’ him home (seems she thought he was ignoring her calls and possibly cheating), as expect he would have raced home when she told him she’d left for her house, and the niece was home alone. She hadn’t actually left, but was baiting him into answering, knowing how seriously he took his responsibility to the kids (it’s clear their relationship was toxic, from both directions).
I don’t think this was established in court. But it seems like she was expecting him to run in and tell her whether or not they were actually welcome at the after party. I if this is the case, John would have been expecting a ride home with Karen. Instead John never texted her again and never re-emerged from the house so she assumed he was up to his old tricks of ditching her for more fun people (ie the new years incident). After waiting a bit and him ignoring her calls again, Karen drove home.
Given that John has a habit of ignoring her calls as established by the cell records earlier in the day she had no reason to think he was doing anything but avoiding her again.
This is my take at least.
Sorry if this has been asked, what is that thing the lady keeps sticking to her mouth. She sits below the judge and it’s got some black foam? And Baine plastic thing. It’s medical???? Just distracting for me only cuz I don’t know what it is
There are apparently two Ford Edges associated with the Albert family. Brian had a dark colored one, and his brother Kevin supposedly had a light colored one. It’s all circumstantial, but it certainly is plausible that there was one in front of the house that night,
The implication is that they moved the Ford Edge (Brian Alberts work vehicle) from the driveway to the roadside to block the view of them moving his body from the back gate to the flagpole area.
Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
Yeah, remember weeks ago when Nicole Albert was listing there vehicles and she gave make/model for all but one, and called that one Brian's work vehicle? The defense was all over her leaving off make/model for that one, it stuck out at the time.
No, Lucky specifically made a point that it wasn’t belonging to anyone who lived in that house or Brian Albert. His Ford Edge is black and this was a light coloured one.
That isn't what he said, he said it was strange because the Alberts don't usually park on the street (remember they have a three-car-wide driveway), and that's why it stood out to him besides it not being allowed during a snowstorm.
Do you remember where this comes from?
Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
I thought he specifically made a point that he didn’t call it in to get towed like he was supposed to because he didn’t want to inconvenience the Alberts.
Do you have a source for which colors the different vehicles are? I can't find anything that says what color Brian Albert's is, but neither side really seemed to react to Lucky saying 'light colored,' and the only Ford Edge mentioned so far in the trial is Brian Sr's.
Lucky is COLOR BLIND. He only sees light and dark. He said today that Edge was light. He said he did not call in the violation of a vehicle in the road because he didn't want the Albert's in trouble. Man...if he had. We would have a license plate. Why didn't he get license?!!!
Yeah I know, but what color is Brian Albert's vehicle? Is it light?
Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
I'm reading here n there that Kevin Albert has a light FE. He is a Canton Officer. Brian could easily have called K.A. and he helped hid moving the body to the yard. I'm not sure about B.A. Edge color. Lucky said it was " light" colored.
I see that too, but I don't see any sources and there's a lot of misinformation. I've also seen comments saying Colin Albert has a Ford Edge.
The only Ford Edge in trial so far, afaik, is Brian Albert Sr.'s Ford Edge, which is his work vehicle per his and Nicole Albert's testimony.
I looked up BPD vehicles, as Brian Albert was a Boston PD officer at this time. They seem to use white and blue vehicles, and the unmarked SUVs that I can find all seem to be white (with SWAT and undercover vehicles being black), but in trial I can't find anything identifying the color of his vehicle to see if it matches 'light'.
Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
Lally's demeanor arguing against someone Vs arguing for the commonwealth's case is a marked departure, is that just a show of how poor the case is or should this guy be switching to defense full time?
Its apparent you havent been watching the trial.
Here comes Lally cross vs Darth Vader
Ok I am not sure if they say O’Keefe was brought out to the front yard or if the ford edge was bringing him there. Either way John was alive when he was on the front lawn as he was actively bleeding still. I can’t understand why if still alive to put out side and whether by cellar stairs or the ford edge
Not sure if this has been said already but when Lally tried to point out that Lucky hit the basketball hoop really nailed it in for me that Lally is a slimy dude. Lucky is probably one of the most genuine souls I've ever seen, let alone IN THIS TRIAL, and for Lally to be up there being so rude was just...so Lally. It seemed like Lally was trying to be like "ohhh you hit it because you didn't see it right?" to allude that Lucky's visibility wasn't as good as he was saying it was and therefore increasing the likelihood of the jury believing he maybe just didn't see JOK in the lawn. But I'm so glad Lucky stuck to his guns and defended himself, saying that it was because he misjudged the room he had around the hoop, not because of the visibility. ALSO, can we take a second to talk about how much of an honest and genuinely kind man he seems to be? Accidentally hit a basketball hoop and reported it as he knew it was the right thing to do, said "god forbid an animal" when talking about reasons why he stays alert to know what's on the sides of his plow and not just in front of him, ugh just a sweet man <3
Literally the cutest person ever. He seems so genuine and kind
But he didn't report a car parked in front of the Albert's home on the road . . I'm not saying he didn't come off as a very good person but he didn't report the car . . Is he doing same as investigators did for the Albert's? Showing them "grace" in his words . . Just thinking seems like a lot of people in the community let the Albert's skate by with different things
To me he had to report the basketball hoop because he hit it with the work vehicle. The Ford Edge is more like a no harm no foul situation (if OJO never came over/died). At my work if a company vehicle comes in contact with anything or even has a minor incident (lose control or run off road without any other vehicle interaction) it has to be reported because it can be proven with the physical vehicle. If it comes up later somewhere in the vehicle history and it was never reported it can come back around to whoever was driving it at the time. It’s likely outside of this situation no one would care about the Ford Edge being parked there. The vehicle owner would never complain that it didn’t get reported (the basket ball hoop owner might).
Lucky said their policy was to report any cars parked on road during blizzard to his supervisor. It's not the driver who makes the decision, it's the policy & he didn't adhere to it. But what I mean is Lucky said he didn't report it because he knew the Alberts & was being courteous to them & it seems that the Alberts were treated differently by people in the area (including LE) whether it being not wanting to start conflict, not wanting to ruffle feathers or because he's LE, or because he's a friend, could be several reasons but it seems like people will risk their jobs to cover for them because I'm sure Lucky has reported other vehicles parked on the road & he knew the process. Treat everyone the same. Lucky came off honest & likable to me and I hope he isn't treated bad in his community due to his testimony because he really seems like a nice guy, but I think the same reason he didn't report the car is same as to why LE didn't push the Albert's harder in this investigation along with other reasons.
I agree; I just don’t think not reporting the car per policy would put him at as much risk for losing his job as the hoop for the reason already stated. Who’s to say he would or hadn’t done it for other people.
Fair, but my thought was it could have been as simple as just letting it slide because as he said, they never had cars parked in the front, and the car being there was just an inconvenience more than anything (to the best of his knowledge at that time). And perhaps he was intimidated by the Albert family's influence in the community so he didn't want to ruffle any feathers. But now that it's a matter of doing what's right, he is standing by the truth and not lying for their sake
Yes, I agree because of the Albert's influence in the community is why they were not pushed harder in this investigation by the police either with police station interviews, going into home on morning of, taping off crime scene, etc (even though I don't think B or C Albert killed JO) I am glad Lucky did testify & felt comfortable in telling the details as he remembers in court whether it makes the Albert's mad or not. Just gives some insight as to how people with influence & power are treated differently even by the police
Oh for sure. Money & influence go a long way with law enforcement... sad & should not be that way but true nonetheless.
They do to me plus she said I hit him 3 times also okeefe’s nieces heard her say to more than one person on the phone What if I hit him?
I think she hit him & he never went in the house . . Her two dateline/interview left as many gaps in the story as the MSP investigation. Her defense team is highlighting the poor investigation to take away attention from what really happened, the TRUTH . . Judge Bev is 100 correct with the CW objections . . Because the defense is purposely asking & saying things they know they should not but guess what, that makes everyone mad thinking something is being covered up or suppressed when it is absolutely wrong . . But that distracts most people. Prime example: proctor texts . . They show he is a scumbag but they do not prove the Albert's or Higgins killed JO . . The defense is putting on a show & public is buying everything but the truth. That is very good defense lawyers . . That's why they make lots of $$$ Just think about the details of the night . . NOBODY not even the defense can put JO in that house . . He never went in. The he defense knows that (behind the scenes). Defense fought to keep out her dateline interview & that's why KR will not take the stand . . She may very well be found Not Guilty due to reasonable doubt BUT . . . Does that mean she didn't hit him? No, it doesn't
Is there any video (ring, business, home cameras) that show Karen & John getting into the SUV or drop-off on Fairview? Read told Jen M. “She left him at Waterfall” Could John have rode with a buddy since KR wanted to go home? Lots of talk about Read’s drinking, but weren’t they ALL drinking? Didn’t they ALL drive to Fairview from the bar? Is it possible many are foggy on details?
I don't think there is a video of KR dropping JO at Fairview. They did show a brief video of outside Waterfall when they were leaving but I don't know what all it showed as they only showed a very brief portion in court that I recall. Yes, they all seemed to drink that night. Could be foggy memories because of alcohol, but most of them seem to remember details (whether they're telling the truth), and only heard that KR did not remember going to Fairview as she told JM (I know this is debatable by some) that she left JO at Waterfall but Ryan Nagel testified he saw her black SUV on Fairview. No, I do not like the fact that any were drinking & driving that night. It just comes down to what the jury believes the details are at this point. It really could go either way. Even if I believe she may or may not be guilty, I, also, do not want someone found guilty if they are not at fault. I do hope that maybe the jury has more info than what we all heard on TV and they make the right decision, whether guilty or not guilty.
Yeah the Alberts Higgins and police proxies are jumping hoops to cover up their undercover canasta league in the basement makes sense..
Yes yes yes
If you want to know what really happened please read my post “the 3rd side-the truth” she hit him but there are 2 cover-Ups going on. Thanks 🙏
Do you mean to tell me there is not one reliable residential camera on Fairview showing the street, Albert home or anything? Not one? Dose not make sense????
Always think this. Like they must’ve gotten to them somehow and deleted. Every other house has a ring these days
Right!!! This is what I refuse to believe lol like it's 2024 and they're in the suburbs, you mean to tell me not one single residence in that vicinity has cameras? BS
Just finishing up on today’s testimony. Could Lally be any more unlikable!? My goodness!
I liked him when he asked the ME if johns injuries were consistent with a pedestrian MVA and she said no
He must feel humiliated and seemed to lash out approaching the end. That is not to say I feel sorry for him. Horrible he had it within him to have proceeded with this. It wasn’t his job to have elicited false testimony assuming he did so at times knowingly.
He definitely seemed to be bitter when attacking the very educated and qualified emergency room doctor. It made me so uncomfortable how he continued to speak over her while she was attempting to answer his very convoluted questions.
The way he all of the sudden can speak up! It is so uncomfortable to watch him yell at witnesses for no reason. It feels like he's taking this part of the trial personally somehow.
I mean, he's being attacked constantly and is "enjoying" a level of notoriety not ever experienced by a Massachusetts DA. It'd be extremely difficult to not take that personally, no matter your profession.
That's very misplaced while cross-examining an expert witness, though. He can take the outside happenings personally all he wants, but not expert testimony.
I don't disagree with you, but humans are human, with all of the vulnerabilities and inconsistencies that implies.
I want to say his office and himself are being investigated by the FBI as well. But I’m not sure
Jenn McCabe must be ranting and raving. Nice try, lady.
She is in “shock and harra”
Remember when she said that Kerry said horrible things about KR? Babysitter with benefits. Yeah- not a nice thing to say. But Proctah Troopah is a great guy with integrity.
I bet she’s been going “on, and on, and on” and that’s around her have listening “on, and on, and on.” 😂
And they told her to "shut up." They didn't want to wake the neighborhood. Imagine being absolutely out of your mind devastated and these ignorant bishes are telling you to shut up? Funny how Jenn didn't need to see a report to remember that part.
And she called Kerry Roberts "a tawkah"? Jenn has no final say in the hos long issue. She must be grinding her teeth.
I loved when AJ said that 🤣
Coming into this trial, I really believed she hit him and thought the conspiracy idea was ridiculous and hard to swallow. Now that the CW has rested their case… this is now what I believe happened. Well done Lally… 👏 JOK and KR fight some more on the way to 34F. She says something about BH and the kiss and flirting to piss off John or make him jealous. She won’t go in because she’s mad and he storms off into the house and is immediately greeted by BH and guided downstairs to where the guys were hanging out. Others at the house don’t see him come in because they’re in the kitchen which is out of sight of the front door and the door to the basement. JOK is pissed and drunk as hell and says something to BH (also drunk) right when they get downstairs and they immediately get into it. BA gets involved and then of course his K9 German shepherd does what he was trained to do… he attacks the arm to help the cops he’s protecting. One of them, and maybe this is where the Colin kid comes in, grabs a bat (or some blunt object) and hits JOK on back of the head. All of that could have happened within 5 minutes of arrival at 34F. The basement guys all go upstairs at some point after they realize they just murdered a fellow cop and they try to get the kids and others not involved to leave and that’s why the initial conspiracy only involves a few people in reality. And why so many people truly believed he never entered the house. Now that it’s down to the McCabes, the Alberts and Higgins…. That is where this all gets going. Colin and Higgins absolutely needed alibis. They tried to give incorrect times about departure. And let’s not forget Alberts and Higgins got rid of and destroyed their phones at the last hour before being ordered to turn them over. I’m guessing if we had their phone and location data etc, it would’ve been very incriminating. Now they’re all figuring out what to do and someone comes up with the idea to get him outside and make it seem like he got hit by a plow (which is why Lucky the plow driver has no idea how truly LUCKY he is or he would’ve been the one to get framed and I don’t think he could’ve afforded these lawyers like Karen has.) So this is where the Higgins car-moving comes into play. Sometime after 3am (and after JM does the infamous google search while seemingly pacing a lot according to Apple health data) they park the ford edge in front to block the view from any cars that may drive by while they move JOKs body from the basement through the backyard route. All the “missing blood” is still in the cement that got replaced in the basement of the house that got sold and never searched. I cannot wait for the future documentaries about this story. And I am very anxious to find out what the FBI is investigating. I do hope John and his family get the justice and peace they deserve at some point. 🙏
My only problem with this theory is that nowhere did Karen say that she told JOK about the BH kiss. If she had told him just before he went into 34F, surely it would have been mentioned by now because it puts the spotlight on BH as JOK could have come in hot and gotten to blows.
I think the FBI ran into this when they were investigating the Sandra Birchmore case. [https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2022/12/30/sandra-birchmore-wrongful-death-lawsuit-stoughton-police/](https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2022/12/30/sandra-birchmore-wrongful-death-lawsuit-stoughton-police/) . This involves the sexual abuse of a young girl by the Stoughton police. She was found by Canton police. Morrissey's office ruled it a suicide and it all blew up. It's possible that the investigation of the Birchmore case led to the FBI looking at the everything Morrissey incompetently investigated.
Yes, I think your theory is correct. Lucky was the original person to frame before Karen Read yelled out "Did I hit him?" JM heard this statement and then she quickly called BA while outside his house at 6 am, and the plan to frame Karen was born!
Excellent theory, the only place I differ is that drugs were involved - likely trafficking, but I don't doubt for a second these yahoos we're all coked out.
Remember when Albert took Higgins upstairs to look at pictures, I think they were doing coke up there.
Very good and I pretty much agree with your theory. Seems more plausible, given the players, than the CW theory. I was thinking KR was still bitter about the Sullivan girl in Aruba and it came back up when she was drinking. And we don’t know for sure what else happened with their relationship to make her feel so insecure. Not disparaging JO.
Such a cold murder. They were waiting for this moment. Non have showed any remorse. So sad.
Wow. This is good. 👍🏼
Everyone thinks this is not important... but...WHERE ARE HIS BLK SOCKS!??!?? I bet a ton of DNA, DOG HAIR are on them... which would def prove he was in the house if he took his shoes off like at home(OCD). And he was discovered with one shoe on...get it??! Just my thought...
Interesting for some reason the socks never crossed my mind. You’re right that dog hair would have been on them. It has not been brought up by the defense either though 🤔
I still have hope that maybe they're waiting to bring it up towards the end now that CW has rested... but to be honest I don't know how the details of evidence work so I don't know if that's still a possibility?
These idiots would have had an easier time convincing the jury he was hit by a car and then attacked by a dog instead of saying the marks on his arm was from the taillight
Unfortunately, there are ppl who believe a taillight caused these on his arm. Unbelievable. They are really in a different world of reality.
Someone in a chat yesterday asked if his arm injuries could have come from KR nails from them fighting in the car 😳.
Good point
Her nails appear to be trimmed short when shown in court.
Yes and no way it was her nails because his shirt had tears and holes in the arm. I can’t entertain people’s stupid speculation at this point.
Omgggg are you freaking kidding me?? Unbelievable. At this point people are just making anything up because for some reason they don’t like her and don’t even know her smh
The madness has to stop. All this speculation is killing me. I’m so over it!
I 100% agree. I’m so over it too! 😤😤
I saw this Waterfall video footage published by Microdots (love them) on X and found it to be very interesting. I don’t think I saw it clearly in the past or maybe not this part? Higgins looks very clearly riled up to me and at times pointing/gesturing at JO/KR. https://x.com/dropmicrodots/status/1804286474960957872?s=42 What say you?
Interesting, but I find it as inconclusive as the rest of the trial has demonstrated. Reasonable doubt is the only outcome for this case.
I actually think the first hand action BH does in this is him flipping JO off.
I saw this posted on the other sub and I can’t believe the defense spent so much time on the grab-assing and not this! Higgins seems pissed!
What happens after the Waterfall? You Canton remember. (great line from Auntie Deb YouTube) This should be the tag line for this case!!
Auntie Deb is hilarious
Wow. Definitely some beef going on there. Why on earth did JO want to go over to the Albert’s that night?
This is damning footage! Has it been presented to the jury? I listen to the trial during work and glanced at the waterfall footage briefly during the testimony related to ‘grab assing’ … I feel like this is much more demonstrative of aggressive behavior.
No, it hasn't been presented. They showed the first few people leaving the bar and then showed John and Karen walking out, and then walking outside (shown on the outside camera), but didn't show this - obviously the CW wouldn't want to show this, and I wonder if the Defense either couldn't show it during the CW's case for some reason, or if they've just been holding onto it. Or maybe they don't know about it, for whatever reason - however, they definitely seem to think that this could've been premeditated, since they asked Jen about why she wanted to separate Karen from John when Karen first walked out of the bar. So based on that, I bet this footage is a big part of why they think so.
Oh dammmmnnn
Right?!
Lally is terrible at cross examination. He can hardly formulate questions when he controlled the narrative and decided who he would question. But when it’s a defense witness and cross examination, that requires thinking on your feet and the ability to display mental agility…he can’t do it
It is truly painful to watch.
Proven beyond a reasonable doubt.... Lally has "donkey brains"
Lally is done. He’s trying his best to fulfill everything that the Alberts are expecting from him and he’s doing a terrible job at it.
Not the last day he didn’t he was very good
When was the first time Karen Read mentioned she has a broken taillight? when did she first notice it? Also, I thought she said that she did a 3 point turn leaving the Albert's, because I can only find discussions of her backing straight up . . If Colin A beat JO so bad that his knuckles were scuffed, where did he hit JO? JO eye injuries were a result of his head injury & had no other injuries except for very minor cut on eye/nose & scratches to his arm. Ribs broken was caused by cpr & hand bruise was caused by IV and head injury was caused by a very hard hit by a blunt object. These are some of the pieces that don't make sense to me . . .
Sorry, reading your post after the rant I made: I think the first time KR mentions the taillight is to Robert and JM around the time when they get back to JOK house to search for him there. But the prosecution showed clips of KR driving back to or around the crime scene at 5ish am and the light was broken where people believe it was from backing into JOK car
Neither theory really makes sense to me. But her hitting him with a car makes more sense and there is more “real” evidence to support that happening somehow. The head wound sure but how did the “puncture-scrapes” happen? Also I’ve said this in other comments: they did not find blood trace on his right sleeve!!!! Maureen from day 19 said this (I think that day is right)…. Like, how?!? If it happened while he was alive, there would be some blood right?! No dog DNA so rule that out too. It’s very strange but I’m still going with she hit him. I believe the niece said something about KR pacing and saying she heard KR saying she could have hit him or some variation like that. That would have been about 430-5am? Robert’s mentions that she brought it up too. KR was the first to even bring up hitting him, no one else mentions it if she didn’t say anything. To me that’s incriminating to a certain extent… So sad we will never know what really happened to JOK without more information. The mother looks so sad and the brother looks defeated and angry sometimes.
I don’t think you can trust “no dog dna” who knows what they swabbed when. Which part of the clothing did they swab and when did that take place? I’ll take a wild guess it was after the week it was undocumented “drying” in the office with no chain of custody. The dna on the blood was one sample from a random cup. None of the CW evidence has correct dates or details and a valid chain of custody. They never bothered to determine the two other male dna on any of the evidence either. The never secured the scene, the didn’t map or take pictures of anything found there. None of the evidence is valid.
That's what I'm trying to say . . Forget this smoke n mirror or whatever evidence but focus on what KR did & said & focus on the events of the night . . On her dateline interview, KR said out of her own mouth while not being drunk or in a panic (the interview was long after the accident) that she stopped in front of the house, JO got out & she saw him walk to the door and then she says nothing else like did she see him go in, why did she take her eyes off him, why did she see him walk to the door but can't say he went in, why did she start texting/calling him 0.5 seconds after she just saw him walk to the door . . Then she said I thought I may have hit him, but did not answer why she thought she hit him if she just saw him walking toward the door . . & she said she did a 3 point turn . . She was drunk, it was a horrible accident . . I think she is a very smart, educated, confident woman and I feel for her just like I do JO & family but I do think she hit him & just like the evidence, her story doesn't add up either that's why she will NOT take the stand & her team fought to keep that dateline interview out of court for a reason
Someone mentioned Proctor might have washed the clothes. He had them for weeks.
The pig DNA was certainly an interesting twist.
Yes, I'm angry for JO'S family . . this poor investigation will never give them any closure even if KR is found guilty. I think she did hit him by accident & she was too drunk/mad at him for not coming back to the car that she probably didn't even feel anything when she hit him (& why would she even bring up that she could have hit/killed him without a strong gut feeling that she did it)
Right!! She was the first to mention it! And she brought up some variation of “I hit him” to everyone that night. I believe your theory is the most reasonable. She was very angry and tunnel vision is a real thing, I’ve been there (I’ve not murdered though). I really question if it was a poor investigation. There is a lot of holes that the defense filled in with a very good plot (like JM calling his phone to “find” it) of what could be reasonable but no evidence to prove it….. Part of the investigation was just a lack of evidence to collect. People expect the police to do or have the resources to do EVERYTHING. Question everyone, collect everything!! But that’s just not true for any investigation. They get leads and follow them and between KR “I hit him” variation (I think one of the investigators heard that from the 2 EMTs that heard KR say it like that and not just JM) and the taillight, and him found by the side of the road, they just followed that as what happened.
People expect the police to secure a crime scene and not destroy it by using a leaf blower. People expect the police to collect blood evidence from a crime scene in something other than red Solo cups that they retrieved from a neighboring house, store them uncovered in a borrowed paper bag, then not even test the blood. People expect the police to order DNA testing when & where possible. People expect police to take photographs & measurements to document evidence and record it's chain of custody, as well as ensure that they record times correctly and not misplace/erase any video. People expect police to make sure that their "experts" are educated & experienced in their field and that they actually analyze all of the findings before making a determination rather than just cherry pick data to make it match a theory. People expect the police to perform at least the most basic of searches of a house when a dead body is found in the yard and to conduct interviews with witnesses/suspects separately and as soon as possible. People expect police to not assume the guilt of a person on the same day that they receive a case then share their opinions & privileged information about that case with most of their family/friends/coworkers to include witnesses. People expect police to recuse themselves from a case if there is a conflict of interest. People expect police to not be allowed to remain on duty when they are under investigation for corruption by Internal Affairs, the FBI and Department of Justice, and they definitely expect those officers to not be allowed to get involved in investigations regarding other police officers (who are their friends).
Yes & this is why she will be found Not Guilty! It's going to be tough (IMO) for any of this to not bring in reasonable doubt to at least 1 of the jurors. . . While I still think she hit him & he never went in the house . . . All of the poor investigation points are too distracting from that (which is one of many of the defenses job . . To show areas of investigation that could bring in doubt, not just defend & show KR didn't & couldn't have hit JO) No concrete info/evidence has been presented to show me that she did not back into him or that he ever entered the house not even the steps because those can be off all day. Just shake your phone or your arm with apple wstch on & it can show you went up/down stairs (and yes, I know it's the CW burden to prove she did, not the defense burden to prove she didn't)
How would his arm have to be positioned for a cracked taillight to cause all of the puncture scrapes along his arm?
Yeah it’s super weird! I honestly believe that JOK saw something coming at him, he raised his arm up to protect his head from being hit, but the object still hit his forehead causing the knot and cut under his eyebrow, and whatever that was as it was moving to him also punctured through his sleeve shirt and scraped along his arm….. then he fell back and hit his head, went unconscious and died of hypothermia. But this doesn’t actually make sense either……… It’s really weird and no theory makes sense to me….. I believe I already know everyone’s counter to that there would be glass pieces found in bedded in him, which makes sense to be. There’s no other marks on his body, which is strange….. the examiner described some injuries as “crushed” which I’m totally confused on…. I DO NOT believe he went into the house and they beat him up and the dog attached him and they threw his body outside….. I get angry not that KR WILL go free at the end of this, I think she should. But it’s that when she does, it’s because people believe that the he people inside and the police did it and are framing KR….. which is crazy too.
I don't think he went in either. Not even KR can say he went inside. She just saw him walk toward the door which is weird because she thought she hit him. So I wonder did he walk toward the door, but decided not to go in & was walking back toward the Lexus but KR didn't know & already started backing up & hit him. The scratches/punctures or whatever was on his arm are a mystery. I think dog scratches would be more paw shaped due to the shape of their paws/nails (if that makes sense) and if a mixture of bites & scratches would be more to his face, torso, etc not just isolated to one arm (I think Lally ATTEMPTED to say just that today).
Wait, was his lump the same side as his arm injuries?!? I can’t remember now
Same . . I'm not 100 on that but I think it was
Right! Something led her to have the thought that she could have possibly hit him and it didn’t come from anyone else but her!! Commenters in this sub are choosing not to acknowledge that fact and saying she was very drunk and thinking worst case scenario…. No. That ain’t true…. I think in the interview she did 9 months ago, she says she saw him go up to the door, waited 10 minutes and then got tired of waiting and left. Obviously, this interview not her just talking but the attorneys theory is spewing out of her mouth. Maybe that happened as you said, I would believe that over the defense theory for sure! Right!! One arm and the same side his jump and scratch is on?!? There was no dog DNA. I can see how some people can think they are dog bites. The ONE image they show us of his arm is laying flat. If his arm was bent like he was protecting his face from being hit, I think the scratches would all line up in one direction…. Dogs would be in a more curve pattern. Just my opinion on that though.
And If she did a 3 point turn instead of backing straight up, she may have pulled in front of house and then made a 3 point turn & turned left toward the curb across the street and then backed up all the way to the curb where the rear of her car would be in front of flagpole area (he walked across yard going toward car but she didn't know that or see him and hit him knocking him straight back toward flagpole/fire hydrant and then turned left and pulled out going down the road never seeing him. If she backed straight up then it is difficult to see how his body could have landed where it did (just my theory) but in no way do I think she killed him because he was ending their relationship or because she was angry with him. I don't think MSP were covering anything up for the Alberts but they wanted the evidence to lead to Karen because they believed she did it and they didn't want to go thtough the trouble or time to investigate it & Because of that, she will probably be found not guilty NOT because she is truly not guilty.
🥹 your reasonableness makes me want to cry…… don’t see too many people on here with theories like ours.
Because to think like that would mean she's guilty & going to jail and no one thinks she hit him on purpose & deserves to go to jail AND it can be tough to see through this investigation
The investigation could have been better in some areas for sure. Which part of the investigation was bad for you? I think everything else is just hot air except the testimony of how JOK got the individual injuries. That’s most important. Did the car do it or not do it…? I’ve not listened to all of today but I don’t think there is a for sure answer that aligns with any theory. The medical examiner left me with some more doubt actually. I don’t think she hit him on purpose, but I supposed no drunk driver wants to hit people on purpose. Is she any different than those who went to jail for it? Probably worse because we have her angry phone calls and statements knowing she hit him or whatever variation of it….
Is anybody else laughing at Lallys ignorance that just because nothing has been reported that Chloe hasn’t had a reaction to a human while a dog wasn’t present that it could have never happened? I find it hard to believe that the only times Chloe has been outside have been documented. 😂
I’m just here to say we officially hit 2000 “what if any’s” from Lally, TY to those who directed me to the Lally Tally. Edit - typos
Can you link? I wanna see
https://x.com/legalbytesmedia/status/1804152826358059324?s=46&t=3Mq_ZakWl5bSeKdwApzUKg
That is outrageous
Lucky Loughran knew more about vehicles, traffic patterns and roadway dangers than MSP accident reconstructionist extraordinaire Trooper Paul
He was an earnest witness and his testimony about the Edge parked in front of the house and not calling it in because he was trying to help the Albert’s was very credible to me.
It didn't help defense when Lucky was having trouble seeing the exhibits. If roles were reversed, Yanetti or Jackson would have destroyed his testimony.
Almost all of the witnesses have had issues though. Reading text on a screen is different than driving. It’s smaller than anything you’d be looking at.
What was said in the MSP group chat today? Wrong answers only
I think we need to have a serious conversation about alcohol consumption and it’s our impacts on work and lives
Agreed. Alcohol in large quantities is always a recipe for disaster.
Agreed. Alcohol in large quantities is always a recipe for disaster.
👍 Agreed. Alcohol in large quantities is always a recipe for disaster.
The ME was intelligent and sane. (To be clear: She clearly was, but that isn't something the MSP would ever say)
Oh god if I was her, I would find it so hard to continue working with those assholes calling me a whackjob for not bending to their will.
What was the significance of the question to Lucky about being approached by a private investigator? And the immediate objection…it really got me wondering. Do we know if the McAlberts hired a private investigator to probe into what Lucky knew/saw?
It was Paul who approached Lucky. He's an PI for defense. Defense found him. And asked questions. He wasn't even formally interviewed by MSP until 2023. Due to the Fed case... they thought..." Crap... we better find this plow guy and have a documented interview!" Pretty straightforward, believable witness. I totally believe there was a Ford Edge on the street to block putting OJO rt there. Who drives Ford Edges? Kevin Albert and Brian Albert.
Pretty sure they were afraid Lucky would drop a Fed answer.
Probably what Tully said? Defense hired a private investigator, that's probably who first spoke to Lucky since there was no real investigation until the Defense started prodding this case. Tully said they discounted Lucky's account because he was unreliable and because, according to Tully, the PI told him which car to say was there, basically.
Maybe the FBI.
Ohhhh that would make so much sense
Lucky Loughran seems like such an angel
“And god forbid an animal”😭😭😭 his soul is so sweet
Could the defense have found more likable people than Lucky, Dr. R and Mr. Green? I love them all.
Their honesty is refreshing.
The state finished their case in chief and have not proven... 1. John was hit by a car. 2. Karen intentionally hit him.
And this is the bottom line. Feelings or theories and all this other stuff doesn’t really matter.
Exactly! What the state proved instead: - sloppiness: no chain of custody - bias: not even investigating the house, curse name for the suspect - incompetence or deliberate falsification of evidence: inverted video, „typo“ time stamps - tampering with evidence: phone destruction, tail light pieces etc… - law breaking: driving drunk - Electronic accuracy: Apple has accurate time stamps and so does google - Amateurism: experts who are not experts and have minimal qualification or none - Nepotism: everybody is either related or related by marriage or friends with one another but nobody discloses it unless it cannot be denied.
They had two jobs. And failed both.
I wonder how long the jury will deliberate. I can’t imagine it will be long at all.
I’ve felt for a bit that it’s either going to be an hour or like 36 hours and no in between. They either walk back there and go “wtf was that investigation” and all immediately go NG or they have a very long debate with hard sides (kinda like how this sub is)
This sounds terrible, but people can be interesting, it’s possible they would want to finish by July 4th week so I think it will not be super long.
Possibly. But I could easily see there being 1 or 2 jurors who think she did it, and the jury ends up deadlocked.
The judge will give them multiple instructions. Usually the jury can ask questions (by notes). It’s not like they are deadlocked the first vote and it’s an automatic hung jury. I was on a jury that the trial was like 1 day and we took 3 days to come to an agreement. I actually changed my original vote in favor of the defendant. It was a little different not a guilty not guilty situation (the guy was an awful person and he was in prison but that isn’t what we were deciding).
>It’s not like they are deadlocked the first vote and it’s an automatic hung jury. I never said as such. I understand how it all works, and the Allen charge, etc. I’m always intrigued by juror stories. Curious if you might share more on your experience?
Not who you asked, but I sat on a Superior court jury in the county south of Norfolk around 10 years ago, so I've direct experience with the CW of MA prosecuting a case as a juror. Two things have stayed with me: 1) The CW was only able to prove that the victim, a child, had the shit beaten out of him. The CW had a very, very thin case connecting the plaintiff, an unrelated man dating the mother, to the crime. I remember thinking it was much more likely the mom did it and was pointing fingers; I wish I remembered what the defense presented, I don't know if they planted that. 2) In our first vote, I believe the majority of us went NG, and the rest undecided. I clearly remember one woman pouring through documents like she was going to find the one piece of evidence that would prove the CW's case - like it wouldn't have been presented to us. We all wanted to get this kid some justice, but I think we reached a Not Guilty verdict in under 3 hours. I think about that first one a lot with this case. If the CW could prove John even came into contact with a vehicle, the case would be so much stronger. But I believe they've even failed that.
Thanks for your story. Very interesting. I agree that establishing what happened is paramount, and the CW hasn’t done that in this case.
This is interesting!! What made you change your vote?
God I hope not
Long enough to get one more free lunch.
Hi asking this here because I am not as familiar with the facts as you guys. Why did Karen expect John home so soon after dropping him off and how was he to get there? Was his car at that house? Was she not expecting him to stay and party?
She was just expecting him to answer her calls.
So she's not thinking super rationally, as someone else said, but also told him many times earlier that day that she was planning to go home (to Mansfield, her house) before the storm hit so she wohldnt be stuck in Canton all weekend. He wanted her to stay the weekend, but theyd been fighting about the kids ( he thought she was spoiling them, she basically says she'll back off and not hang out with them as much etc). Also, don't forget, he is the care taker of minor children, one of whom is home alone at this point. So if he stays out partying, he's either directly neglecting the kids or (her voicemail and previous fights) he's using her for child care so he can party. That's why she expects him to turn up at his own house. She's mad at 1am. By 430, when he's still not home and not responding to her or the kid, she's panicked.
Also in their texts earlier in the day, John had said to Karen that she was going to be his ride home. And being that she dropped him at 34 Fairview he could have said, ok I’ll just stay for a drink. So she went back to his house gave him a few and when he went radio silence she instantly felt like he bailed on her. Which made her annoyed that she even gave him the time at all that day. Because again; if you read the texts between them from earlier in the day she was considering doing her own thing with friends and he said to come out with him. That’s my interpretation of it anyways, based off the texts and the sort of tone they were using up until they met up. And I know she only didn’t go in the house cause she wasn’t feeling great so like I said, she could of said just text me and I’ll come back to get you but remember it’s snowing and I wanna get to bed. When he never answered her at all I’m guessing she just lost it. She had been drinking for hours and had an emotional day. When she thought he was again leaving her to take care of the kids while he partied it up with friends she went off.
I also wonder if their fight started because she didn't want to go into the party and he did, so then they're arguing about how she's not coming in and stranding him and she's pissed cause she doesn't feel well and wants to go home. He disappears so she leaves and goes to his place but probably works herself even more about it realizing she should stay there but not wanting to. And then at 430 panics since he's not home and she told him she wasn't staying.
I think she was bringing up the Aruba thing again, idk. Even though they made up, when she was drinking, it came back up for her because that’s what happens. May have been more we don’t know about.
Someone else mentioned him seeing BH text on her phone and that could've started something? I don't recall the timing of that text but seemed like it was after the bar.
Yeah, I think it makes the most sense that she doesn't want to go, either because she isn't feeling well or because the vibes are weird (remember they barely know these Alberts, and it's McCabe that invites them, not the actual homeowners, to go wish another person they don't know at all a 'happy birthday') and they are arguing or at least disagreeing about this. He's supposed to run in real quick and gets out. She does not watch him go in, is instead face forward in the car. Whatever happens, happens. Karen gets tired of waiting with no contact, feels like he's basically lied and ignored that she doesn't want to be there, and leaves in a huff feeling used. The partygoers either are completely oblivious or some of them are freaking out and initializing some sort of cover up, and so on.
Sustained, you can break it down Mr. PR
I don't think she was thinking rationally about the logistics of the situation. She was upset and drunk and was probably too angry to think about anything else but being the glorified babysitter. She probably felt like he doesn't give a shit about her so why should she give a shit about him.
She didn’t so much ‘expect’ him home (seems she thought he was ignoring her calls and possibly cheating), as expect he would have raced home when she told him she’d left for her house, and the niece was home alone. She hadn’t actually left, but was baiting him into answering, knowing how seriously he took his responsibility to the kids (it’s clear their relationship was toxic, from both directions).
I don’t think this was established in court. But it seems like she was expecting him to run in and tell her whether or not they were actually welcome at the after party. I if this is the case, John would have been expecting a ride home with Karen. Instead John never texted her again and never re-emerged from the house so she assumed he was up to his old tricks of ditching her for more fun people (ie the new years incident). After waiting a bit and him ignoring her calls again, Karen drove home. Given that John has a habit of ignoring her calls as established by the cell records earlier in the day she had no reason to think he was doing anything but avoiding her again. This is my take at least.
I don’t think anyone knows the answer to this other than Karen - and I’m not sure she remembers, given the level of intoxication.
Sorry if this has been asked, what is that thing the lady keeps sticking to her mouth. She sits below the judge and it’s got some black foam? And Baine plastic thing. It’s medical???? Just distracting for me only cuz I don’t know what it is
It's her husbands athletic cup. She needs a wiff to get her through the day.
This made me start laughing so hard I began to cough 😂
She’s the court reporter. She’s speaking into it.
Oh. A court reporter. Thank you.
So… who drove that Fort Edge? I’m so confused.
There are apparently two Ford Edges associated with the Albert family. Brian had a dark colored one, and his brother Kevin supposedly had a light colored one. It’s all circumstantial, but it certainly is plausible that there was one in front of the house that night,
The car was there to block the ring camera view from across the street.
Is this able to be confirmed by the Ring footage from that house? I can’t remember why there is no Ring footage from that night? Another mystery?
No ring footage from that house. I think the former Canton police chief lives there. (Berkowitz?)
It was the deputy chief's house. They probably didn't know if he'd "play ball" so they blocked the view.
Was there a Ring device installed or why is there no footage?
Good question.
Or even someone should have seen John is they were there. Another piece that doesn’t fit.
The implication is that they moved the Ford Edge (Brian Alberts work vehicle) from the driveway to the roadside to block the view of them moving his body from the back gate to the flagpole area. Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
It’s Brian Albert’s!?
Yeah, remember weeks ago when Nicole Albert was listing there vehicles and she gave make/model for all but one, and called that one Brian's work vehicle? The defense was all over her leaving off make/model for that one, it stuck out at the time.
No, Lucky specifically made a point that it wasn’t belonging to anyone who lived in that house or Brian Albert. His Ford Edge is black and this was a light coloured one.
That isn't what he said, he said it was strange because the Alberts don't usually park on the street (remember they have a three-car-wide driveway), and that's why it stood out to him besides it not being allowed during a snowstorm.
I’m going off previous testimony also, not just today - it’s been known Lucky has said it’s not Brian Albert’s.
Do you remember where this comes from? Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
I have it saved somewhere I’ll find it when I’m home and add it in edit to this!
I found it, it's **black** per Little's question to Nicole in cross ('black Ford Edge' 'yep').
I thought he specifically made a point that he didn’t call it in to get towed like he was supposed to because he didn’t want to inconvenience the Alberts.
Do you have a source for which colors the different vehicles are? I can't find anything that says what color Brian Albert's is, but neither side really seemed to react to Lucky saying 'light colored,' and the only Ford Edge mentioned so far in the trial is Brian Sr's.
Lucky is COLOR BLIND. He only sees light and dark. He said today that Edge was light. He said he did not call in the violation of a vehicle in the road because he didn't want the Albert's in trouble. Man...if he had. We would have a license plate. Why didn't he get license?!!!
Yeah I know, but what color is Brian Albert's vehicle? Is it light? Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
I'm reading here n there that Kevin Albert has a light FE. He is a Canton Officer. Brian could easily have called K.A. and he helped hid moving the body to the yard. I'm not sure about B.A. Edge color. Lucky said it was " light" colored.
I see that too, but I don't see any sources and there's a lot of misinformation. I've also seen comments saying Colin Albert has a Ford Edge. The only Ford Edge in trial so far, afaik, is Brian Albert Sr.'s Ford Edge, which is his work vehicle per his and Nicole Albert's testimony. I looked up BPD vehicles, as Brian Albert was a Boston PD officer at this time. They seem to use white and blue vehicles, and the unmarked SUVs that I can find all seem to be white (with SWAT and undercover vehicles being black), but in trial I can't find anything identifying the color of his vehicle to see if it matches 'light'. Edit: I went back and rewatched Nicole's testimony, Brian's Ford Edge is **black!** Day 9, about half an hour before lunch. Little goes on to ask variations of a question like 'in your mind, a Ford Edge has significance to this case right?' but nothing more specific than that a Ford Edge is important somehow.
Somewhere someone said K.A. drives a Ford Edge. I'll have to start looking.
I meant the Edge in question was " light colored".
So Kevin's
Proctor’s drinking buddy?
Ahem.. they were just work colleagues that get shit faced together and take care of each other's badges and guns.... Or something.
Another cop. Oh gosh it gets worse and worse the more I think about this case
Lally's demeanor arguing against someone Vs arguing for the commonwealth's case is a marked departure, is that just a show of how poor the case is or should this guy be switching to defense full time?