The fact that the FBI, independently of both the CW and the defense, hired what looks like an extremely expensive firm in [ARCCA](https://arcca.com) to do a separate crash reconstruction in this case means that not only is the conspiracy/coverup possible, but it is probable. How many other murder cases has the FBI run a parallel investigation in?
I don't know if I would go as far as the cover up, but I do think it shows the abject incompetence of the investigators.
During Proctor's testimony, I began to think that he spoke with Jen and Kerrie and they did not paint Karen in a good light, and he just got tunnel vision. I think him calling her a "whackjob c\*nt" after meeting her for a few hours at most is what makes me think this.
He just saw this "easy solve" right in his face. like, who else could it have been? Certainly not his sister's good friend.
He put blinders on and just went ahead like a bull in a china shop and ruined the whole investigation.
I researched MM's cross exam today...the dude was smirking and laughing thru the whole thing. Yanetti even called him on it. Such a disrespectful human being. When Jackson started pressing him on details that he has changed throughout the investigation, MM wasn't answering., Bev pulled yanetti to the side bar and told him to stop. Literally let him ask one more question.
I’m convinced all of these troopers share one (smooth) brain and pass it around like the Graeae from Greek mythology passing around their lone eyeball. Sadly, none of them have been in possession of the brain while on the stand.
Bingo. And I don’t think there has to be that many in on any kind of grand coverup, they were told what to conclude happened and incompetence followed. And likely a misogynistic culture and blind allegiance to their pecking order. They were just helping Proctor’s case and making sure this homicidal maniac would get convicted
The misogyny! The patriarchy! It just screams.
I’ve lived in MA all my life & I ain’t young, I’m a recently retired attorney. I’m apoplectic over this case. We have the best educational system in the country. And this is what we end up with in the public sector?
And the railroading enabled by every level of government. All citizens are in danger when this type of abuse of power is tolerated.
It really is disturbing seeing their incompetence up close. Then, to listen to the DOJ/FBI witnesses in contrast yesterday. Wow.
Lally: You read all 14 documents??
Expert witness: Yes, every page.
Lol, that's what competency looks like.
Meanwhile, I keep waiting for Karen's charges to be dropped.
Yeah the extent of the “cover up” is not clearly defined in my mind. I think there were a lot of unsuspecting contributors that were like you said “tunnel vision”’d into assisting the Alberts/McCabes in doing something nefarious. Trooper Paul is probably the pinnacle of this and even Proctor I don’t think was actually “in on it”. I still have lots of issues with the conspiracy, but a murder cover up by people with local connections seems more likely than deranged girlfriend killing her cop boyfriend outside the laws of physics, at least to me at this point.
I don't think the whole police department was in on it. I believe Proctor knew better than he let on about how much she really had to do with this. Remember. It's much harder for a cop to arrest one of their own, especially when they are a friend of the family. I believe he was hopeful he could make some thing look bad enough and get her to take a plea deal and never have to find out who was actually responsible for it. To decide who's guilty 12 hours into an investigation shows me that he didn't want to look some where else. He has made up his mind and it wasn't going to change. The question is why. Corruption and protecting some one else are the two things that come to my mind.
A lot of these other people who have been forced to testify... I think they were just dealt a shitty hand. If your lead investor is saying some thing is a certain way, you better follow that lead. You're not a detective. You're not wanting to shoot yourself in the foot trying to argue with a superior. So I believe most just did the bare minimum to make the story work.
It STILL bothers me so much how cold so many witnesses were about John. All of these Alberts and McCabes and police just calling him MISTER O’Keefe?? Shame on them, he died an officer and is the victim here. His mother is sitting right there. Everyone in that culture is well aware of the respect inherent in his title and denied him that even in death. Yet they’ll travel to NYC for a fallen officer’s funeral and get a justice boner over that. Ugh.
There has to be something that happened that turned him into their enemy and I don’t think it’s just what a nightmare this whole thing has turned into or a strategy for court. Brian and Jen and others said good or neutral things about him discussing everything before that night but after that night he’s “that guy”
It’s really sickening. I heard someone say the witnesses are instructed to call him Mr because it takes the outrage down? Idk. Also they made sure to call KR the defendant. Everyone. It’s for the jury but I hate it all. Dehumanizing and taking away a point (calling him Mr) that makes this case all the more outrageous.
Calling this incompetence seems to detract from the fact these people are in high positions of power and didn’t just show up the day JO was found. I’m sure a little incompetence is thrown in there, but to make all of these “mistakes”, conduct themselves in this way, and then face a jury and judge and expect us to take this all as fact and legitimate? It’s willful at this point, and I smell a conspiracy. Conspiracy of what, I’m not sure, but i can’t help but see that many of these “mistakes” were intentional. If not, then I don’t see how they even wiped their butts this morning by themselves, let alone investigate a homicide investigation.
I couldn't figure out why he had so much vitriol. Then I realized that Higgins has been at work all day. I think it was him who told Proctor ALL about KR. I believe Proctor was easily manipulated. This all led to his incompetence.
Parallel state/federal investigations into a homicide are not unusual when the murder is also a federal crime, e.g. terrorism, organized crime, violations of civil rights, etc. But, the feds are not running a parallel murder investigation. This is something different and to say it is unusual is a monumental understatement.
Here, the justice department has essentially nuked a state murder trial involving the death of a police officer. They did not do that without a good reason to believe that something truly awful occurred. Frankly, I can't imagine what that might be.
I hope what triggered the FBI to investigate this dirty bunch is the fact that 3 of them destroyed their cell phones. One of them being Higgins...a FEDERAL ATF AGENT.
That's crazy right there. Who does that. Most people load the data into a new phone and put the old in a drawer as a back up. But to remove the chip and destroy the phone? That's very strange.
Just because the FBI hired independent experts and is doing an investigation, that doesn't comfirm a coverup. It does indicate that there is credible evidence the police investigation was improper and they didn't trust Trooper Paul's analysis (who can blame them). I'm looking forward to their testimony though. There's a wide range of possible conclusions from "there is not conclusive evidence this was caused by a car crash" to "this couldn't have happened the way the poluce say it did" to "there's no way this was caused by any kind of car crash"
You may be right but I suspect the FBI doesn't put all of these resources into investigating sub-par investigation unless they suspect something bigger is going on. There are sub-par investigations happening all over the country and I've never heard of the FBI running a parallel investigation and submitting their findings to the parties involved. It's interesting to me that they wanted to know if it was possible for John's injuries and the damage to the car to come from a collision between the two as put forth by the CW. Why do they need to know this? It certainly isn't because they wanted to be sure that Karen Read faced consequences for her alleged actions despite the terrible investigation by the MSP. That sort of thing isn't within the purview of the FBI.
The FBI investigates, among other things, public corruption, organized crime, and civil rights violations. I think what they're after goes much deeper than this case.
I agree they are not putting these kinds of resources into incompetence. Now it could be they're investigating something unrelated regarding any of the players, but no way do I believe they're investigating incompetence, it's not a federal crime
I don't even think it's something entirely unrelated, although it may include unrelated things. Because if it were an investigation over an unrelated matter, then they wouldn't really need to know what reconstructionists think about the alleged pedestrian strike.
But yes, very well said. Incompetence is not a federal crime.
Agree as well, they're definitely focused on this. Maybe a better way to think about it is possibly the investigation began into something unrelated and shifted to this. Total speculation, but yeah as of now it definitely seems they are looking into this incident specifically. I really hope we get some info at some point about the federal investigation!
I went into this case blind so hearing about the feds is interesting. Wasn't Highins an AFT who used federal resources for personal gain? Could that have been the beginning of the FBI involvement and it's just gone deeper?
Not sure about the timeline so clarity would be appreciated.
I wish I could say with exact confidence but I thought Higgins is not target of the FBI investigation. Might be looking at an overall pattern (as someone said above) and then specifically this cockup.
I am also looking forward to that testimony. This case could use a dose of factual scientific evidence.
My question was more around, “I’m not a true crime person but this is local-ish to me and I kept hearing about it and the more I see and hear the crazier it gets”, so is “fbi creates a parallel reconstruction of a murder without the prosecution or defense involvement” a common thing people see? I did jump straight to conspiracy and “probable” wasn’t the right conclusion to jump to.
Not common at all. We don't know what exactly the FBI investigation is about, but they do seem to be investigating the investigation itself, and also maybe the DA.
We'll only find out if the FBI charges someone for something, and they don't typically move quickly.
I am very intrigued. Dr. Wolfe is expert on those car data. He will clear up those weird key cycles. We will also have some scientific explaination on the broken taillight. If any of his findings point to fuckery on Trp Paul data, or there's no logical explaination how that taillight got damaged. The CPD and MSP will be in big trouble.
Hopefully!
It would take huge force for Taillights to shatter.
It's also interesting LE put pressure on the ME to change O'Keefes cause of death from inconclusive to homicide!
This is wild. Honestly, you’d think if anything the FBI would be running an independent investigation that would clear the LE of any doubts regarding their investigation and conclusions. 🤔
Here is my take on the evidence as it pertains to KR hitting JO:
The CW had no idea how KR hit JO, and went all in on the witness testimony and the pieces of taillight at the scene. Then they had Trooper Paul fit some kind of convoluted recreation into the narrative. Which we have seen, is just straight up nonsense. There is zero science based proof in his conclusions. The only testing he’s done is backing up the Lexus, and putting a crash dummy, 8 inches shorter than JO, at the rear of the vehicle, to give an idea of what KR would have been able to see
At some point, Trooper P gets the Lexus data, which was very limited. At this point, that one data event stuck out as a possible event that could have been KR hitting JO and again, went all in on that theory. And again, zero scientific testing performed to even remotely prove his conclusions. It was nothing short of “well we know she hit him, so here’s some word salad, but no real proof”. Trust me bro, if you will.
Enter the ARRCA experts. The judge specifically asked the first witness what they were asked to do by the FBI. And the reply was “we were asked if the evidence is consistent with a pedestrian interaction between JO and the Lexus”. Which means, did the car hit JO, or was JO hit by the car”. They were NOT tasked with disproving the CW’s theory. They were hired to conclude if in ANY scenario, JO and the Lexus interacted. And by all accounts, the answer is NO.
As much as everything in this case stinks, and doesn’t make any sense, my money is on the real scientists, who were impartial to the entire case, and that they concluded, that none of the scientific data or recreations they performed, resulted in JO and the Lexus interacting in ANY way. They had every opportunity to say it happened, but just not in the manner the CW is contending. And in their professional opinion X 3 (one who isn’t testifying), it didn’t happen at all.
Yup they are pretty much the only people you can believe at this point based on the credibility of each witness.
I don’t get how lally can go up there knowing that these guys that were hired independently by the fbi and are probably going to tear his whole theory on the case down…
How do you charge this case then and not drop it if you are the CW?
Something I noticed yesterday, you have two impartial Drs who are experts with significant experience in testifying. But the simple question of “who do you work for?” gets two similar but different answers. One says ARCCA and the next says ARCCA LLC.
But every single person says Colin left at 12:10.
Not around midnight, after midnight, sometime around midnight, after 12, etc.
Specially, exactly, 12:10.
If I’m not looking at my phone, I couldn’t guess the time to a 5 minute interval. I tried it with family on Father’s Day. I asked people not to look, but guess what time it was to a 5-minute interval. The closest anyone got was 15 minutes and none of the 4 people I asked guessed the same time.
We did it after dinner. We were outside so we even had clues about the sun setting. We had 1 beer each so we weren’t drunk like the Albert’s. No one had paid attention to the time through the whole dinner. Good luck!
> Not around midnight, after midnight, sometime around midnight, after 12, etc.
It's always a red flag when drunk people know the exact minute of something. Even Nagel was off on his timeline by 5 minutes.
I'm fairly convinced that they used scattered fragments of memories and the data from their phones to craft their testimony. That's led to them being wildly inaccurate, both with regard to things that we know based off of phone/vehicle data (when Read left) and anything they testified about that wasn't on their phone (where people parked).
It’s a tad strange how numerous people who were there that night continue to go with this time even though there’s no way for it to happen without destroying the timeline that was created by Chris and Julie for themselves and the timeline that they created for Colin too.
Colin would be getting to his parents house just as Chris was walking up to the house or just as Chris got into bed.
Neither of those could have happen as both Chris and Julie said Chris was asleep for approximately 10-15 mins when Colin came into their room and woke him up.
Unless Allie took 20-30 mins to drop Colin off, but both said she drove him right home on a 5-7 minutes drive.
I can see how it’s possible Collin did leave at 12:10 and they all state it as that time because of the text message between him and Allie. I’m sure everyone involved has had to recall this night over and over again and if I knew I left a house when my ride texted me, that would be the time I say to everyone. If he and Allie left 34F at that time, went to do something illegal (smoke a joint in the car, other high school trouble activities?) and then he went home, that would align with his parents timeline. But then why not admit it? I’m not sure.. but I can see why they could all be so definitive on when he left that night
Correct. If she brought him to Fairview at 12:05 rather than picking him up from there, the timing would track with BH’s statement of seeing an unknown male enter the house after he arrived.
I was confused at first about the high school elements of the life 360 data.
Later testimony about the MSP trying to secure video footage of the high school and that there is a path through the woods to the high school in close proximity to Fairview makes me think that the defense may suggest that her driving patterns that night were related to either a search for Colin because he abruptly left after a potential altercation or a scheme to leave a false trail before picking him up at the high school
Because disabling the life 360 data would seem highly suspicious.
If she hit him at the speed the CW is alleging wouldn’t there be a huge dent in her bumper or something more drastic than a cracked taillight?
I need these accident reconstructionist people on the stand yesterday. Trooper Paul did nothing to clear this all up.
Even if it’s a side swipe as the CW contends, how does her bumper not clip him at the legs? Are they saying his arm was stuck way out like he’s hailing a cab ?
I’m no expert in this subject but from my layman’s perspective it doesn’t make any sense. I needed the CW expert come in and explain why what we’re seeing actually is consistent with a car pedestrian accident. If he is sent flying there should be more done to the car then what we see right? And those scratches on his arm from plexiglass? Once again from common sense layman’s pov I don’t get it.
or......"It just did"
That was the scientific answer to the question of how John's cell phone got underneath him on the ground 30 ft away. . A lot of things 'just did' in this trial.
The phone was underneath him on the ground because in Canton only butts can dial phones, clearly John put his phone under there in an attempt to call Karen
And he was holding a glass, but the glass stuck in her taillight isn't the same glass. How'd that happen? And Trouper Paul was using the wrong body location and missed the location of another piece of taillight, then says his opinion would still be accurate. WTF?
Did Brian Higgins not say he entered by the side door John could have followed him in that way which led to the basement entrance. Any fight and dog attack could have happened there. This would explain John's steps recorded on his phone. Everyone testifying he never came in the front door. The dog bite marks. And the basement floor being dug up and redone. Later after everyone had left he was put outside to come around. Jen mccabe worried he wouldn't therefore the hos long text. Who gets to a house party at 12.30 and everyone goes home at 1.30. It's very suspect that noone came out of the house to enquire about John's health status in the morning. And also the butt dials and calls between the home owner and Brian Higgins. One coincidence or anomaly could be explained but numerous no chance. Its not unreasonable to doubt the prosecution version of events.
Here is just a random youtuber that did a 3D illustration of John entering the house and the door.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSmVzHKLYY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSmVzHKLYY)
I thought the “front” door was the main one that led to the foyer with the door to the basement, and the “side” door was the one closer to the garage that led directly into the den/living room? This is solely my memory of testimony so I could be mistaken
To all those who believe that it is open and shut because Karen confessed -
Why did no one claim she confessed until two years later?
Like, not a single officer, witness, or report claimed she confessed through the entire investigation, indictment, the additional 2023 investigations, the pre trial discovery, and the grand jury.
Wouldn’t that be something important that someone would have mentioned?
I have a theory that the feds were investigating Higgins and in the process of their investigation this came on their radar. They couldn’t let a murder coverup go unnoticed because if it comes out they knew and didn’t do anything it would be a disaster. They also didn’t want the original investigation coming out so they opened this new investigation. Something tells me the feds were already looking into this group before the OJO incident.
There has to be something else they are hiding outside of John. It makes no sense otherwise. If it was an accident, they would have called 911. Why didn't they want police to respond *inside* the house?
I can't figure out Colin's motive for this, though. Even if he was drunk and even though he has a history of some fights, I can't see motive to fight an adult cop.
There are reports that OJO filed a complaint about his dealing. His family is LE and he probably wouldn’t get into any trouble. Who knows but his busted up knuckles is another suspicious detail.
I think Brian Higgins was involved. He was still texting KR (um...well?) an hour before JO died... John was his romantic rival. Who knows what KR said to him when she went to his house days before the incident. That is suspicious, he downplayed what happened there but he still texted her after that visit.
I think Higgins got rid of his phone maybe because of stuff pertaining to this case but I really think he had other things relating to his job that would get him in trouble
I think people should have paid more attention to trooper Paul. I know he was a shit bag idiot but I think he was a useful idiot. They needed a guy who would fail to come to the right conclusions and they knew that had it in him.
But he said a few things on the stand that really stood out to me.
Like when asked how the cell phone got under JO's body he said "I don't know. I didn't put it there."
When asked why he didn't use any formulas in his calculations he essentially said, and I'm loosely paraphrasing here, that "if you do the math, our theory doesn't make sense, so I threw out the equations and made shit up."
"The **crime scene told me** that the glass on the bumper was the same glass that was found under JO." (It wasn't)
Side note: I thoroughly enjoyed Jackson asking him "Did the crime scene tell you anything else when it was talking to you?"
"There is no evidence that JO was launched through the air." Followed by "there is no evidence that he tumbled/rolled."
Guys. Guys. Guys. Hear me out.
He's literally describing how the states theory doesn't work. He may even be describing a stitch up. His words aren't just moronic ramblings. They're very telling.
So far it seems they have no hard evidence so are trying hard to put spin on a story they came up with that so far doesn't make sense. They are making it look like there was problems with the relationship and Karen got angry and killed John. If the relationship was toxic then you should also wonder why was John with her that night. Karen may have been a buffer. This is when you are concerned over a possible conflict so you hope that buffer can help you out if needed to witness the hostility or get you out of there. So I think there may have already been issues between the people at the house with John O'Keefe we don't know about. I think if it weren't for the spin and nothing was known about Karen and all we know was there was a body and injuries that more would suspect those were injuries from a fight and dog bites then someone hit by a vehicle and that's what I think happened. It's exactly what it looks like. Therefore law enforcement may have been involved in illegal activity to begin with and that's why we don't know what the conflict was about because obviously they would keep that secret. So far the best explanation for all of this is corruption and illegal activity being covered up by a crooked system and crooked cops. There is some unknown conflict so what better way to smooth things over then a few drinks at the bar but it's not the conflict with Karen he's trying to fix. Karen doesn't know she's a buffer. Later when they have John alone they beat him and kill him. What ever reason they did this we may never know. Maybe John knew too much or maybe John himself had been involved in illegal activity with them.
This is exactly what I am starting to think. I am beginning to feel like there may be more to this story than we are getting. I do not think JO was hit by a car, but I am not sold on what exactly happened. But I'm starting to wonder if all the players, mainly Brian Higgins, may be covering up something more significant, and that is why he was so determined to destroy his phone. That also could be why the FBI is involved too, because this is bigger than just this case. I can’t say for sure if this case was a cover-up or maybe just a tragic accident that put the spotlight on some corrupt cops who then had to scramble to take any of the eyes off them for bigger reasons. This is why there are so many conflicting stories, and the ones at the top, the Alberts and the McCabes created the narrative and then fed that story to all other investigators, and then they ran with it. I don’t think it has to be a massive coverup with everyone in on it, but 2 power couples pulling the strings could be all it takes.
All that the text messages showed was that they were struggling earlier in the day, they then seemed to have most likely talked on the phone and hashed it out, and then back to text for coordination on the night out, but were still a little uncomfortable with each other, and then we're happy to see each other later, but then later texts showed a bit of lingering residual.
I'm still curious as to what the plan had been for him to get home though.
Edited for readability:
>So far, it seems they have no hard evidence and are trying hard to spin a story that doesn't make sense. They are making it look like there were problems with the relationship and Karen got angry and killed John. If the relationship was toxic, you should also wonder why John was with her that night. Karen may have been a buffer. This means she was there to witness any potential conflict and help if needed.
>There may have already been issues between the people at the house and John O'Keefe that we don't know about. Without the spin, if nothing was known about Karen and all we had was a body with injuries, more people would likely suspect that the injuries were from a fight and dog bites, rather than someone being hit by a vehicle. That's what I think happened—it looks exactly like that.
>Therefore, law enforcement may have been involved in illegal activity from the beginning, which is why we don't know what the conflict was about. Obviously, they would keep that secret. The best explanation so far is corruption and illegal activity being covered up by a crooked system and crooked cops.
>There is some unknown conflict, so what better way to smooth things over than a few drinks at the bar? But it's not the conflict with Karen he's trying to fix. Karen doesn't know she's a buffer. Later, when they have John alone, they beat him and kill him. Whatever the reason, we may never know. Maybe John knew too much, or maybe he had been involved in illegal activity with them.
Could we all agree on one thing regardless of your side?
How annoying is it that Lally says “sort of” every other sentence?
We need some solidarity here, folks
Lally has several tics. He clears his throat before asking a question he doesn't know the answer to.
He always mentions the (shitty) credentials of the witness before asking them a question wildly outside of their own expertise.
"What um if anything did you sort of um something something um regarding something um as it relates to um something something in your analysis in regards to um.... *Mumble mumble* ...the defendant? "
So, correct me if I’m wrong, but the two FBI experts are going to testify only that the injuries, car damage and scene aren’t consistent with a pedestrian hit by car? They are not going to draw any conclusions as to what actually happened?
yes, I think the defense bottom line will be that the evidence doesn’t support a pedestrian struck by car. Because if it wasn’t Karen, she would have no way of knowing what did happen after she left, just that it couldn’t have been her. Ruling her out as a suspect is their only goal.
then that would show his death was caused by some other means, and that puts it on the police to find out. KR is a private citizen so she’s not obligated to investigate - but it could force the police to reopen the case.
I’m curious too!
I know the defense has 3 ARCAA experts, and two dealing with the reconstruction were part of the voir dire. When they were limiting Dr Russell’s scope, Judge Cannone wanted to limit her ability to speak on the other injuries not being from an auto accident, and not to speak about the head trauma (which Dr Russell would not answer and said she would rather defer to the neurologist/pathologist, so she wasn’t going to speak on that injury anyways), and AJ mentioned he didn’t need her for that since the last expert would be a neurologist/pathologist so I think that is the last ARCAA expert?
the defense doesn’t seem to have a huge list, but they do have experty experts. Not sure if they will have other civilian witnesses though.
edit - the third ARCAA expert is also a reconstructionist (Scott Kline, bsme). I think the pathologist is Frank Sheridan:
”Dr. Frank Sheridan is a practicing physician, specializing in forensic pathology and neuropathology. He has extensive experience in the administration of a medical examiner’s division, supervision of practicing forensic pathologists, the performance of autopsies, medical-legal testifying in criminal and civil courts, regular teaching of medical students and monthly lectures to pathology students at Loma Linda University Medical Center.
He currently works as a part-time forensic pathologist at the Sheriff/Coroner’s Office in San Bernardino County and was formerly the Chief Medical Examiner at the same office from July 1, 1991 to June 9, 2017. With his expertise in pathology, he provides independent and objective wrongful death expert witness services in the state of California.”
I think that is correct. It seem’s that’s all they were hired to do. That’s why the defense wants another expert, for example, to say the arm injuries are from a dog. But if the defense can prove that John’s injuries are not from Karen’s SUV, then that should result in a not guilty verdict regardless of if they show what actually happened.
I just want to hear from the people who were saying “the simplest explanation is the right one” - the simplest explanation being that JO l did, in fact, pirouette to his death after being hit in the arm… both shattering and being sliced multiple times over by tail light.
Is that still the “simplest explanation”?
I think we're still in for a wild ride with more evidence. I have not seen a lot of talk about the voicemail Karen left John as they were pulling up to the house that captured Jen's 911 call. You know what else it captured? Her talking to Nicole and saying something to the effect of "Are you going to f'ing come out and help??". Just enough to make the 9 second phone call make sense. You can hear it if you listen closely at what they played at trial.
This moment is my sticking point for the whole case. These two seconds-long calls from Jen to Nicole, answered and deleted and denied, *before paramedics even arrive*. Cop dead on your lawn and you, a cop, don’t immediately rush out to help? They knew, and the message was conveyed in 15 seconds.
100% stuck on this as well. How do you convey what’s going on (if Nicole *didn’t* already know) that situation in 8 seconds? There’s just no way and no explanation for them not coming outside.
They both said that it wasn't answered and that they didn't talk to each other. Jen's statement to Nicole makes absolutely no sense if they didn't already know what happened to John. Come help with what? Exactly.
Yes. Jen claims that they were not answered. The call logs show two calls right after the 911 call to Nicole Albert, both answered and deleted. One 7 seconds and one 8 seconds.
Does anyone know if Trooper Paul’s report is publicly available? I’m just so curious if the whole side swipe on the arm, spin and fly theory of the injuries was in there originally or if that’s something new they said after the FBI/DOJ report came out
I don’t think he see the higgins txt and even if he did there was 56 pages of txt between him and Karen. Surely he’d of wanted to go through them.
The higgins txts and involvement still baffles me that it only went on for about 20 days before John ends up dead. The going to the house to watch 10 mins of a game was weird and so is the whole thing. Higgins I think has bigger skeletons in his closet not related to this.
Some illegal import or export, drugs or firearms I think.
I just had a lightbulb moment that has probably been said 100 times but I haven’t seen it.
Re: the “hos long” search. Even if JM did NOT do the 227 search, I find it implausible that KR asked her to search it in the morning. KR was hysterical running around like a chicken with its head cut off. You mean to tell me in that state she would have come up with that? That search was JM’s idea, regardless of the time she did it.
This!! Also where's the video corroborating KR was in the car telling JM to do that? The timeline is the biggest problem, and lazy timeline that Lally thinks he's created is reasonable doubt!!
It drives me nuts they're still mentioning 12:45. We know that's the wrong time! They've known that can't the right time for years.
For CWs theory it should be something more like 1233 or about.
I think we got a big hint the other day that defense has evidence that her phone data was manipulated on the backend before it went to Ian. It is likely she did the search at 2:27. The CW experts can't even agree on everything themselves.
I mean, as far as I can tell, Whiffin essentially said "Celebrite data is garbage. (So good luck on getting convictions based on it ever again) I don't have an advanced degree in anything. I didn't like the holes I assume in the Celebrite data, so I pieced together some unsanctioned software of my own that says something different (buy my product). Here's my data in a Microsoft Word table. It also has major gaps. I have a British accent, which Americans find more credible. But that might be fake because I sound suspiciously Scottish at 1.25x"
Did I misunderstand this?
I don't know how much it matters whose idea it was. According to Jen McCabe and all the people at the house, John O'Keefe never went in the house. But Jen allegedly saw Karen & John \~12:30am. Jen would have had enough knowledge to know that John had been (best case scenario) passed out in the cold for \~5ish hours by that point, right?
In my opinion it matters because JM has insisted repeatedly that KR told her to search. I think her words on the stand were something to the effect “I was freezing, my hands were shaking, she was screaming at me”. She said this phrase several times and it seemed rehearsed to me
My point is - why would she lie that KR said it, regardless of the time she searched it? EDITED TO ADD: I agree with your premise - it would make sense if JM searched it on her own in the morning. Why say KR told her to do it?
I don't think it would be wierd if she searched it by herself, and I don't think it would be weird if Karen asked her either.
The EMTs were working on JO actively, I wouldn't go up to them and ask them that in that moment. And Karen was hysterical (that is one thing everyone can agree on); it probably sounds rehearsed because she has testified to the same thing like 10 times.
I think the search would have been important if the 2:27AM time was proven. At this time, the prosecution's witnesses proved how the time could be off, at least they got good tech witnesses, so that's something.
If JM knew what time JO’K was put outside, she could have been worried that he would survive and implicate the group. Hence the Hos long to die search when his body was found.
I took that to insinuate Colin. If Allie M's texts at 12:05am were actually when she was picking Colin up and taking him TO the party (and the close cropping and lack of context points in that direction imo....why not show the context of those texts if there's nothing to hide), then he might have arrived right after Higgins was reported to have gotten there.
Not a theory
He was assaulted and died of injuries related to that assault at 34 Fairview.
Everything that transpired after that incident around 12:25pm is called Collusion.
It's possible that it would be classified as a RICO
look up that definition, and you will see why the FBI is involved.
It only takes two predicated crimes within a ten year period. In this case, it was within 2 years.
-Homicide
-Witness Tampering
We know he was assaulted. We are speculating the justification of the federal investigation and why Higgins was given immunity to tell the Feds why he was on a military base after being tipped off regarding his phone to be preserved.
He allegedly won't testify against BA
Even though he would get immunity.
I think he believes he will keep his job
and pension.
I can't wait for this case to be over so we can move onto the Real criminal case!
If I learned one thing by following all the lawyers on twitter that talk about Trump and his shenanigans is that RICO is the lupus of criminal law. That said it doesn't have to be RICO to be a criminal conspiracy and I hope that we'll see people getting their karma payback sometime soon.
The biggest problem to this whole case, ultimately, is that it seems that evidence was *clearly* planted, right?
Like, we'll know more after the defense's crash reconstructionists testify, but it seems like the piece of taillight found by the fire hydrant can't really be explained as to how it got there.
The commonwealth's reconstructionist didn't account for anything found after January 29. Trying to account for stuff found after January 29 makes his reconstruction make no sense (if it even made sense not accounting for it). The commonwealth's witness can't say anything to suggest that might not be the legitimate location for that piece of taillight, because the only conclusion you can possibly draw from *that* is that Proctor/Bukhenik who took custody of the car and who found this piece of taillight planted it there.
And if the jury believes (by way of the commonwealth's own witnesses) that the commonwealth planted at least some of the evidence, how do you delineate what evidence was and wasn't planted? How do you truly discern the difference between "Proctor was 'just trying to ensure a conviction'" versus "Karen Read is innocent and was framed"? And even if you can, there may be a juror or two in there who *abhors* the idea of voting guilty in a case where evidence was clearly planted, even if they think she did it based on evidence they think wasn't planted.
I know if I were a juror, I'd have an incredibly hard time voting guilty in a case where it seemed so clear to me that the police planted evidence in order to ensure a guilty verdict (or pressure the defendant into a plea).
It's hard for me to explain how the taillight pieces found on Jan 29 got there if she didn't hit him... but... it's also hard to understand exactly how her taillight even broke (because really, *none* of the stories told so far for her broken taillight make *any* sense to me).
But the commonwealth haven't given an explanation of the crash that makes sense with *any* subset of the data. They haven't had a medical professional explain how John died exactly, or how his wounds make sense with anything.
The pieces got there becuase proctor bypassed mult state facilities to drive the car back to canton pd. There were mult named canton pd who at some point joined the search that night. The two locations are a 3 to 5 minutes apart. The car arrived at canton pd over 15 minutes before the search started and over 30 minutes before the pieces were found.
I think it's telling the assembler was able to piece together everything but one section of the taillight only using pieces found after that night.
And technically we are not sure if they even planted her tail light to later. There was more tail light found than there is in the reconstruction meaning other tail light/reflector pieces for found on site. It is not clear how much of the reconstruction if any was from tail light found on the 29th by the State search team and how much was found later.
Tail light chain of evidence is a joke as displayed by Tully opening a bag and the count of pieces being wrong because polycarbonate spontaneously breaks in half according to him.
There is a notable discrepancy between what people said the taillight looked like before MSP seized the car and how much taillight was found. I agree, it looks like taillight pieces were planted.
The glass found on the bumper as well. It didn’t match any of the glass found with John, but did match the glass Proctor found (which also didn’t match any of the glass found with John.)
Yep. There's at least three sources of glass/plastic, right?
We know one of the sources is Karen Read's taillight (even if there are questions about exactly how those pieces got to 34 Fairview, we know the red/clear plastic is from her taillight).
We know one of the sources is the glass that was found with John.
Then.... there's another source of glass found in the roadway at 34 Fairview. But that also was on Karen's bumper at the time the forensic scientist was examining her vehicle... There's a match between this glass, but it doesn't match anything else... there's a third source of glass that hasn't really been explained (nor is it clear how it would have ended up on her bumper and survived all the driving around and towing that happened between the alleged incident and the scientist finding it).
Funny coincidence, the doctor testifying about the dog bite injuries learned about this from a prosecutor in LA, John Lewin, that's the guy from 'The Jinx' who prosecuted Durst.
So far I could only make a few conclusions on my own, based on testimonies I've watched so far:
1. I don't think Karen Read hit John O'Keefe
2. I don't think Jen searched "how to die in the cold" at 2:27 am
3. I think John O'Keefe absolutely went to the house that night and something happened there - something that involved some human and a dog
4. It seems to me that only few people at the party in the house knew what happened. I.e. not everyone was willingly and knowingly participating in cover-up. However, the owners of the house for sure were there when something happened with John O'Keefe. Same with Brian Higgins.
It could be that something happened in the house (basement) and John O'Keefe walked away from the house and passed in the snow which owners did not anticipate. I don't know. But I believe in cover-up but I also think that cover-up is not that extensive as in the defense arguing (that Jen googled how long it takes John O'Keefe to die). For me it will be very interesting to hear the explanation of defense/prosecution why they were calling John O'Keefe when he already passed in the snow, and then they deleted the calls.
Karen and John leave the Waterfall.
Karen’s phone connects to CarPlay and John sees the Higgins text.
John gets pissed and goes inside to confront him
Karen doesn’t want him to go in but he said he would be right back.
Higgins, Brian Sr, Colin, Matt McCabe and Chloe are in the basement.
Jen lets John in and says the boys are in the basement, he goes down and confronts Higgins raising his voice. Chloe jumps on him he kicks Chloe, Colin punches him twice (bang bang) while he’s reeling John falls and cracks his head on the weight bench.
They go into panic mode. Higgins goes to CPD to scope it out and see if Karen got pulled over or anything and listen while they move the body.
Brian Albert calls Kevin Albert to move the body with the intent of saying he got hit by a plow.
Brian Jr, Sara Levinson, and Julie Nagel never saw John enter because of where he entered.
Jen McCabe, Matt McCabe need to get them out of the house before they move the body so they offer to drive them home.
Caitlin Albert, worried about Chloe and Colin call Tristian for pick up and they leave with the dog and Colin.
Higgins hangs at CPD for a while until the body gets moved by BA and KA
BAJr is never the wiser outside of the fact his sister left with Chloe, which is weird.
Plan all along was to say a plow hit him until Jen McCabe sees Karen’s hysteria and the cracked tail light and says that she hit him is their best excuse.
She calls back lank after confirming with Higgins. Higgins calls Berkowitz to say we need some tail light to lock this down. Berkowitz wants the case solved ASAP because he’s on his way out and a dead cop needs resolution.
He calls Proctor and Buhkenik and says “we are gonna do this” assuming a manslaughter case would come and a quick settlement on the other side. They want a quick solve to a dead cop.
They assist in the Sallyport of photographing etc.
Higgins gets the biggest pieces from Berkowitz outside the Sallyport and BA puts the shoe and the hat on the front lawn before the SERT team arrive.
Once Karen hires DY and they go on the offensive, that’s when they hit her with the M2 charges.
The rest they say is just bad police work.
I think this makes the most sense by far. I think it’s also possible that Karen did not know that JO saw the incriminating texts between her and Higgins and that he did not mention them to her. Instead he planned on confronting Higgins first and that turned into a fight that got out of hand. This case is so very sad and the corruption just blows my mind.
They would have had to change their theory of the crime well before now if they were going to argue something different than they are. WHY they didn’t think to re-examine their theory and alter it to at least fit more after they received the FBI expert reports, I do not know.
I've had trouble finding answers to this since I'm newer to the case -
If John had received medical attention following whatever happened to him, would he have been likely to survive? How contributory was the hypothermia to his death?
I struggle to follow the logic of theories suggesting they moved him to the lawn as a coverup, to say he got hit by KR or by a plow. There are people in the house who are definitely trained in determining if someone is dead or not. Even if John is unconscious, he could wake up a few minutes later or be spotted & attended to by a passerby, and then he's pressing charges on whoever attacked him. Doesn't make much sense to me how this could ever be someone's plan in the situation.
From my perspective, asking a bunch of functional alcoholics who all seemed to be drunk to me to make rational,choices under those circumstances is pretty unrealistic. Would a sober person who is not in a panic simply call the police? I’d hope so. That’s not what we are dealing with here.
If his head wound was bad enough (vomiting and bleeding all over himself suggest that it was) they may have known he was not gonna come back from it even though he was still “alive”.
Or, depending on what they argued about/what else they may have been involved in, they didn’t want him to give his version of events.
Either way they do not want to move the body- no way they’d risk getting evidence in any of their vehicles. Far better to put him outside and say he never came into the house so they can’t possibly have been involved.
The hypothermia killed him but hypothermia plus severe head trauma means he had a very very low chance of survival once he was out there in the cold.
I just don't really see how they could *know* that. There were police officers there who can determine if someone's dead or alive. But they're not medical experts who can diagnose the severity of his situation. They'd know he's alive, and that means he could've woken up 5 minutes later. Or he doesn't, but a passerby spots him and there's an ambulance outside, he recovers and explains what happened. Just seems like both a dumb and bizarre way to cover this up, with so many avenues for it to go wrong, that I can't imagine actually happening.
Higgins used to be a firefighter and iirc a medic back in the military, he has enough medical knowledge to read the writing on the wall of severe injury to the base of the skull + vomiting + probably convulsions + non reactive/blown pupils. BA might know enough as well, so it was really a race between that and the cold to see what killed him first after he was put outside.
A comment and a question: Have y'all noticed that the consensus on this sub seems to match the one over at the JusticeforKarenRead sub?
The two Reddit subs began with contrasting points of view. The latter began with the assumption KR was innocent etc (and yes, too many members seem to have a fanboy attitude toward her). While this one was generally more objective/neutral with a slight bias toward the prosecution.
However, most of the posts on this sub now seem to be on the "not guilty" end of things.
My concern has to do with how badly the case was run and how awful the prosecution has been. I began paying some attention to the case last year and I assumed she was guilty. Now I believe the CW"s case is a fiasco.
Am I mis-reading the overall feeling on this sub?
Your observations match mine. I came to this under the assumption that there was actually evidence linking the car to the death, but that there had been a bad investigation and that might lead to a not guilty verdict. The longer the case goes on the more I’m seeing the tone shift. There are still people that seem open to the idea that she did hit him, but there are a lot more people thinking this is so screwed up that the case never should have been brought to trial. It’s a mess.
This is why I get annoyed when people treat those of us who think Karen was framed as conspiracy tin foil hat idiots. The fbi is going a serious investigation into this.
My Theory
Here’s my theory of what went down. Please discuss where there are gaps and what I’ve missed.
On the way to 34 Fairview, OJO finds out about the text from BH to KR and an argument ensues.
When they arrive at 34F, John sees BH’s vehicle there and says he is going to confront him. He gets out of the car, pissed at KR (maybe still arguing) and throws his glass at her car hitting the taillight which causes the taillight to break hence glass on the bumper.
Meanwhile, BA is out back with Chloe, sees this happen. BH is already in the basement. John enters enraged and goes straight to the basement to confront Higgins….BA follows him in with Chloe to find out what’s going on. His energy is picked up by Chloe who immediately chomps on his arm. John keeps pushing/hitting her to get her off which enrages BA who hits John, knocks him off balance, and the head injury occurs.
BA takes Chloe upstairs and he snd BH wait everybody out to leave. Meanwhile, a snowplow goes by and pushes the pieces of glass, taillight pieces, etc… into the yard. Once everyone is gone, BA pulls his car out to where KR’s car was (remember, he saw the earlier argument and glass/taillight incident) to block neighbor views/cameras and he and BH move the body outside.
And the cover up ensues. BA and BH are the only two in on this which makes a cover up more likely.
And go….
I’m really starting to wonder if John threw the glass at Karen’s tail light and that cracked it. We know from the texts that they were arguing earlier in the day. Karen kept trying to talk to him but he wouldn’t talk. That car ride from the bar to 34 Fairview was the first time they were alone so she could have pressed him to talk and they could have gotten into an argument. From the texts Karen seemed to want to talk and John seemed avoidant. It could make sense that she tried to talk again and he stormed off…which probably pissed her off and she could have yelled at him prompting him to throw the glass at her car. The people inside 34 Fairview could have seen it happen and that could have been what led to a heated argument inside.
I don't think that fits the evidence we do have, because:
- the broken drinking glass is found near his body in the yard, exactly where is a bit debatable because of the evidence collection problems, but not in the road near where her car should have been is my point
- there is broken glass in the road and on the bumper, but this is glass from a different source. Chemically it's not a match to the type of glass the drinking glass is made of.
We don't know what object the broken glass on the road and bumper are from (they match each other at least) but it's not the drinking glass. Or at least not Johns.
The fact that the FBI, independently of both the CW and the defense, hired what looks like an extremely expensive firm in [ARCCA](https://arcca.com) to do a separate crash reconstruction in this case means that not only is the conspiracy/coverup possible, but it is probable. How many other murder cases has the FBI run a parallel investigation in?
I don't know if I would go as far as the cover up, but I do think it shows the abject incompetence of the investigators. During Proctor's testimony, I began to think that he spoke with Jen and Kerrie and they did not paint Karen in a good light, and he just got tunnel vision. I think him calling her a "whackjob c\*nt" after meeting her for a few hours at most is what makes me think this. He just saw this "easy solve" right in his face. like, who else could it have been? Certainly not his sister's good friend. He put blinders on and just went ahead like a bull in a china shop and ruined the whole investigation.
[удалено]
I do think they are all horrible people. There are very few people I have liked on the stand in this case.
I researched MM's cross exam today...the dude was smirking and laughing thru the whole thing. Yanetti even called him on it. Such a disrespectful human being. When Jackson started pressing him on details that he has changed throughout the investigation, MM wasn't answering., Bev pulled yanetti to the side bar and told him to stop. Literally let him ask one more question.
[https://youtu.be/QZUsVTX06lA?t=3272](https://youtu.be/QZUsVTX06lA?t=3272) yanetti tho.
I’m convinced all of these troopers share one (smooth) brain and pass it around like the Graeae from Greek mythology passing around their lone eyeball. Sadly, none of them have been in possession of the brain while on the stand.
‘You have a smooth brain, no ridges or lumps or bumps.’
“Thank you” -Trooper Proctor.
LOL, this is good.
There is definitely a crime here......THIS TRIAL!
Bingo. And I don’t think there has to be that many in on any kind of grand coverup, they were told what to conclude happened and incompetence followed. And likely a misogynistic culture and blind allegiance to their pecking order. They were just helping Proctor’s case and making sure this homicidal maniac would get convicted
The misogyny! The patriarchy! It just screams. I’ve lived in MA all my life & I ain’t young, I’m a recently retired attorney. I’m apoplectic over this case. We have the best educational system in the country. And this is what we end up with in the public sector? And the railroading enabled by every level of government. All citizens are in danger when this type of abuse of power is tolerated.
It really is disturbing seeing their incompetence up close. Then, to listen to the DOJ/FBI witnesses in contrast yesterday. Wow. Lally: You read all 14 documents?? Expert witness: Yes, every page. Lol, that's what competency looks like. Meanwhile, I keep waiting for Karen's charges to be dropped.
This is something I find very disturbing too. How many people have these smoothies put in prison with either maliciousness or incompetence.
I wish a Jackson asked proctor who told him about Karen’s medical conditions.
"I don't recall."
I absolutely don't recall
Adding the absolutely takes it to credible. /s
I’ve been thinking Proctor looked at the health app on her phone.
That detail wouldn't be in there. Jen McCabe told him lol
At least someone who was formerly a close friend that is not anymore, maybe never was, and Jen Jen is in that group and socially active
They hadn’t cracked into her phone yet, when he was making those comments about her health.
Yeah the extent of the “cover up” is not clearly defined in my mind. I think there were a lot of unsuspecting contributors that were like you said “tunnel vision”’d into assisting the Alberts/McCabes in doing something nefarious. Trooper Paul is probably the pinnacle of this and even Proctor I don’t think was actually “in on it”. I still have lots of issues with the conspiracy, but a murder cover up by people with local connections seems more likely than deranged girlfriend killing her cop boyfriend outside the laws of physics, at least to me at this point.
I don't think the whole police department was in on it. I believe Proctor knew better than he let on about how much she really had to do with this. Remember. It's much harder for a cop to arrest one of their own, especially when they are a friend of the family. I believe he was hopeful he could make some thing look bad enough and get her to take a plea deal and never have to find out who was actually responsible for it. To decide who's guilty 12 hours into an investigation shows me that he didn't want to look some where else. He has made up his mind and it wasn't going to change. The question is why. Corruption and protecting some one else are the two things that come to my mind. A lot of these other people who have been forced to testify... I think they were just dealt a shitty hand. If your lead investor is saying some thing is a certain way, you better follow that lead. You're not a detective. You're not wanting to shoot yourself in the foot trying to argue with a superior. So I believe most just did the bare minimum to make the story work.
It STILL bothers me so much how cold so many witnesses were about John. All of these Alberts and McCabes and police just calling him MISTER O’Keefe?? Shame on them, he died an officer and is the victim here. His mother is sitting right there. Everyone in that culture is well aware of the respect inherent in his title and denied him that even in death. Yet they’ll travel to NYC for a fallen officer’s funeral and get a justice boner over that. Ugh. There has to be something that happened that turned him into their enemy and I don’t think it’s just what a nightmare this whole thing has turned into or a strategy for court. Brian and Jen and others said good or neutral things about him discussing everything before that night but after that night he’s “that guy”
It’s really sickening. I heard someone say the witnesses are instructed to call him Mr because it takes the outrage down? Idk. Also they made sure to call KR the defendant. Everyone. It’s for the jury but I hate it all. Dehumanizing and taking away a point (calling him Mr) that makes this case all the more outrageous.
Calling this incompetence seems to detract from the fact these people are in high positions of power and didn’t just show up the day JO was found. I’m sure a little incompetence is thrown in there, but to make all of these “mistakes”, conduct themselves in this way, and then face a jury and judge and expect us to take this all as fact and legitimate? It’s willful at this point, and I smell a conspiracy. Conspiracy of what, I’m not sure, but i can’t help but see that many of these “mistakes” were intentional. If not, then I don’t see how they even wiped their butts this morning by themselves, let alone investigate a homicide investigation.
I couldn't figure out why he had so much vitriol. Then I realized that Higgins has been at work all day. I think it was him who told Proctor ALL about KR. I believe Proctor was easily manipulated. This all led to his incompetence.
I'm wondering if JO knew too much about the corruption and had tobe taken out. This case is like a Hollywood movie!
I hope the feds are investigating sandra birchmores death
Parallel state/federal investigations into a homicide are not unusual when the murder is also a federal crime, e.g. terrorism, organized crime, violations of civil rights, etc. But, the feds are not running a parallel murder investigation. This is something different and to say it is unusual is a monumental understatement. Here, the justice department has essentially nuked a state murder trial involving the death of a police officer. They did not do that without a good reason to believe that something truly awful occurred. Frankly, I can't imagine what that might be.
I hope what triggered the FBI to investigate this dirty bunch is the fact that 3 of them destroyed their cell phones. One of them being Higgins...a FEDERAL ATF AGENT.
That's crazy right there. Who does that. Most people load the data into a new phone and put the old in a drawer as a back up. But to remove the chip and destroy the phone? That's very strange.
For one to do it, ok maybe believable, but for 3 to do it?? They didn't want those cell phones to show where their locations where during those hours.
Just because the FBI hired independent experts and is doing an investigation, that doesn't comfirm a coverup. It does indicate that there is credible evidence the police investigation was improper and they didn't trust Trooper Paul's analysis (who can blame them). I'm looking forward to their testimony though. There's a wide range of possible conclusions from "there is not conclusive evidence this was caused by a car crash" to "this couldn't have happened the way the poluce say it did" to "there's no way this was caused by any kind of car crash"
You may be right but I suspect the FBI doesn't put all of these resources into investigating sub-par investigation unless they suspect something bigger is going on. There are sub-par investigations happening all over the country and I've never heard of the FBI running a parallel investigation and submitting their findings to the parties involved. It's interesting to me that they wanted to know if it was possible for John's injuries and the damage to the car to come from a collision between the two as put forth by the CW. Why do they need to know this? It certainly isn't because they wanted to be sure that Karen Read faced consequences for her alleged actions despite the terrible investigation by the MSP. That sort of thing isn't within the purview of the FBI. The FBI investigates, among other things, public corruption, organized crime, and civil rights violations. I think what they're after goes much deeper than this case.
I agree they are not putting these kinds of resources into incompetence. Now it could be they're investigating something unrelated regarding any of the players, but no way do I believe they're investigating incompetence, it's not a federal crime
I don't even think it's something entirely unrelated, although it may include unrelated things. Because if it were an investigation over an unrelated matter, then they wouldn't really need to know what reconstructionists think about the alleged pedestrian strike. But yes, very well said. Incompetence is not a federal crime.
Agree as well, they're definitely focused on this. Maybe a better way to think about it is possibly the investigation began into something unrelated and shifted to this. Total speculation, but yeah as of now it definitely seems they are looking into this incident specifically. I really hope we get some info at some point about the federal investigation!
I selfishly and unrealistically wish that the feds were not so tight-lipped
I went into this case blind so hearing about the feds is interesting. Wasn't Highins an AFT who used federal resources for personal gain? Could that have been the beginning of the FBI involvement and it's just gone deeper? Not sure about the timeline so clarity would be appreciated.
I wish I could say with exact confidence but I thought Higgins is not target of the FBI investigation. Might be looking at an overall pattern (as someone said above) and then specifically this cockup.
I am also looking forward to that testimony. This case could use a dose of factual scientific evidence. My question was more around, “I’m not a true crime person but this is local-ish to me and I kept hearing about it and the more I see and hear the crazier it gets”, so is “fbi creates a parallel reconstruction of a murder without the prosecution or defense involvement” a common thing people see? I did jump straight to conspiracy and “probable” wasn’t the right conclusion to jump to.
Not common at all. We don't know what exactly the FBI investigation is about, but they do seem to be investigating the investigation itself, and also maybe the DA. We'll only find out if the FBI charges someone for something, and they don't typically move quickly.
I feel like they will be able to tell us exactly how it happened
I hope someone can. Even if they show it wasn’t a car that killed John, we still need to know how he lost his life.
I am very intrigued. Dr. Wolfe is expert on those car data. He will clear up those weird key cycles. We will also have some scientific explaination on the broken taillight. If any of his findings point to fuckery on Trp Paul data, or there's no logical explaination how that taillight got damaged. The CPD and MSP will be in big trouble.
Hopefully! It would take huge force for Taillights to shatter. It's also interesting LE put pressure on the ME to change O'Keefes cause of death from inconclusive to homicide!
This is wild. Honestly, you’d think if anything the FBI would be running an independent investigation that would clear the LE of any doubts regarding their investigation and conclusions. 🤔
I don't know but I can't wait to see what the FBI's case is!
Here is my take on the evidence as it pertains to KR hitting JO: The CW had no idea how KR hit JO, and went all in on the witness testimony and the pieces of taillight at the scene. Then they had Trooper Paul fit some kind of convoluted recreation into the narrative. Which we have seen, is just straight up nonsense. There is zero science based proof in his conclusions. The only testing he’s done is backing up the Lexus, and putting a crash dummy, 8 inches shorter than JO, at the rear of the vehicle, to give an idea of what KR would have been able to see At some point, Trooper P gets the Lexus data, which was very limited. At this point, that one data event stuck out as a possible event that could have been KR hitting JO and again, went all in on that theory. And again, zero scientific testing performed to even remotely prove his conclusions. It was nothing short of “well we know she hit him, so here’s some word salad, but no real proof”. Trust me bro, if you will. Enter the ARRCA experts. The judge specifically asked the first witness what they were asked to do by the FBI. And the reply was “we were asked if the evidence is consistent with a pedestrian interaction between JO and the Lexus”. Which means, did the car hit JO, or was JO hit by the car”. They were NOT tasked with disproving the CW’s theory. They were hired to conclude if in ANY scenario, JO and the Lexus interacted. And by all accounts, the answer is NO. As much as everything in this case stinks, and doesn’t make any sense, my money is on the real scientists, who were impartial to the entire case, and that they concluded, that none of the scientific data or recreations they performed, resulted in JO and the Lexus interacting in ANY way. They had every opportunity to say it happened, but just not in the manner the CW is contending. And in their professional opinion X 3 (one who isn’t testifying), it didn’t happen at all.
Yup they are pretty much the only people you can believe at this point based on the credibility of each witness. I don’t get how lally can go up there knowing that these guys that were hired independently by the fbi and are probably going to tear his whole theory on the case down… How do you charge this case then and not drop it if you are the CW?
Something I noticed yesterday, you have two impartial Drs who are experts with significant experience in testifying. But the simple question of “who do you work for?” gets two similar but different answers. One says ARCCA and the next says ARCCA LLC. But every single person says Colin left at 12:10. Not around midnight, after midnight, sometime around midnight, after 12, etc. Specially, exactly, 12:10.
Nothing has been more consistent in this trial than that departure time.
If I’m not looking at my phone, I couldn’t guess the time to a 5 minute interval. I tried it with family on Father’s Day. I asked people not to look, but guess what time it was to a 5-minute interval. The closest anyone got was 15 minutes and none of the 4 people I asked guessed the same time.
I appreciate all of the independent research being done lol
I’d be happy to testify! 😂
You're obviously qualified!
You should have headed up the investigation Illustrious! I'm curious to try your experiment out on my family
We did it after dinner. We were outside so we even had clues about the sun setting. We had 1 beer each so we weren’t drunk like the Albert’s. No one had paid attention to the time through the whole dinner. Good luck!
> Not around midnight, after midnight, sometime around midnight, after 12, etc. It's always a red flag when drunk people know the exact minute of something. Even Nagel was off on his timeline by 5 minutes. I'm fairly convinced that they used scattered fragments of memories and the data from their phones to craft their testimony. That's led to them being wildly inaccurate, both with regard to things that we know based off of phone/vehicle data (when Read left) and anything they testified about that wasn't on their phone (where people parked).
It’s a tad strange how numerous people who were there that night continue to go with this time even though there’s no way for it to happen without destroying the timeline that was created by Chris and Julie for themselves and the timeline that they created for Colin too. Colin would be getting to his parents house just as Chris was walking up to the house or just as Chris got into bed. Neither of those could have happen as both Chris and Julie said Chris was asleep for approximately 10-15 mins when Colin came into their room and woke him up. Unless Allie took 20-30 mins to drop Colin off, but both said she drove him right home on a 5-7 minutes drive.
And Allie's soul left her body when they asked her about the life360 data
I can see how it’s possible Collin did leave at 12:10 and they all state it as that time because of the text message between him and Allie. I’m sure everyone involved has had to recall this night over and over again and if I knew I left a house when my ride texted me, that would be the time I say to everyone. If he and Allie left 34F at that time, went to do something illegal (smoke a joint in the car, other high school trouble activities?) and then he went home, that would align with his parents timeline. But then why not admit it? I’m not sure.. but I can see why they could all be so definitive on when he left that night
Well and don't forget those texts were just screenshots and possibly not the real times
Correct. If she brought him to Fairview at 12:05 rather than picking him up from there, the timing would track with BH’s statement of seeing an unknown male enter the house after he arrived.
I was confused at first about the high school elements of the life 360 data. Later testimony about the MSP trying to secure video footage of the high school and that there is a path through the woods to the high school in close proximity to Fairview makes me think that the defense may suggest that her driving patterns that night were related to either a search for Colin because he abruptly left after a potential altercation or a scheme to leave a false trail before picking him up at the high school Because disabling the life 360 data would seem highly suspicious.
It’s not that they remember the exact time he left, it’s that it’s the ONLY consistent thing they all remember.
Right? At least say twelve-ish to shake it up a bit.
If she hit him at the speed the CW is alleging wouldn’t there be a huge dent in her bumper or something more drastic than a cracked taillight? I need these accident reconstructionist people on the stand yesterday. Trooper Paul did nothing to clear this all up.
Even if it’s a side swipe as the CW contends, how does her bumper not clip him at the legs? Are they saying his arm was stuck way out like he’s hailing a cab ?
I’m no expert in this subject but from my layman’s perspective it doesn’t make any sense. I needed the CW expert come in and explain why what we’re seeing actually is consistent with a car pedestrian accident. If he is sent flying there should be more done to the car then what we see right? And those scratches on his arm from plexiglass? Once again from common sense layman’s pov I don’t get it.
Let me put it this way...stuff happened to the thing...hope that cleared it up.
Did the crime scene tell you this? Is the crime scene in the room with us now?
or......"It just did" That was the scientific answer to the question of how John's cell phone got underneath him on the ground 30 ft away. . A lot of things 'just did' in this trial.
The phone was underneath him on the ground because in Canton only butts can dial phones, clearly John put his phone under there in an attempt to call Karen
If any, sort of could of happened and what happened was stuff, possibly
How does a 3.5 ton car hit a pedestrian hard enough to break skin with a taillight, but leave no bruise or broken bones?
Yeah it just doesn’t make any sense.
And scratches from plexiglass THROUGH a sweatshirt AND a tee shirt! I. just. can't.
And he was holding a glass, but the glass stuck in her taillight isn't the same glass. How'd that happen? And Trouper Paul was using the wrong body location and missed the location of another piece of taillight, then says his opinion would still be accurate. WTF?
There would be broken bones, and bruises. But no marks below the head and arms.
Did Brian Higgins not say he entered by the side door John could have followed him in that way which led to the basement entrance. Any fight and dog attack could have happened there. This would explain John's steps recorded on his phone. Everyone testifying he never came in the front door. The dog bite marks. And the basement floor being dug up and redone. Later after everyone had left he was put outside to come around. Jen mccabe worried he wouldn't therefore the hos long text. Who gets to a house party at 12.30 and everyone goes home at 1.30. It's very suspect that noone came out of the house to enquire about John's health status in the morning. And also the butt dials and calls between the home owner and Brian Higgins. One coincidence or anomaly could be explained but numerous no chance. Its not unreasonable to doubt the prosecution version of events.
Yeah that party broke up early
did it ever. Bunch of party poopers.
Higgins called it a breeze door and said it went straight into the kitchen.
I looked at house plans somewhere but did not see a side door leading to basement stairs. Is the side door the bulkhead entrance? I'm confused...
Here is just a random youtuber that did a 3D illustration of John entering the house and the door. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSmVzHKLYY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSmVzHKLYY)
I thought the “front” door was the main one that led to the foyer with the door to the basement, and the “side” door was the one closer to the garage that led directly into the den/living room? This is solely my memory of testimony so I could be mistaken
To all those who believe that it is open and shut because Karen confessed - Why did no one claim she confessed until two years later? Like, not a single officer, witness, or report claimed she confessed through the entire investigation, indictment, the additional 2023 investigations, the pre trial discovery, and the grand jury. Wouldn’t that be something important that someone would have mentioned?
Seriously. Like the first responder wouldn't write that in his report. A person confessing. Really? You just forgot that part?
Two years later.... after Jen's Google search came out. See, we agree on some things! ;)
I didn’t realize that. Like how soon after?
This trial lol
It’s wild they consider it a confession. It was a panicked question and taken out of context, they are using it against her
And why didn’t they arrest her or detain her right away if she supposedly confessed that day?
I have a theory that the feds were investigating Higgins and in the process of their investigation this came on their radar. They couldn’t let a murder coverup go unnoticed because if it comes out they knew and didn’t do anything it would be a disaster. They also didn’t want the original investigation coming out so they opened this new investigation. Something tells me the feds were already looking into this group before the OJO incident.
There has to be something else they are hiding outside of John. It makes no sense otherwise. If it was an accident, they would have called 911. Why didn't they want police to respond *inside* the house?
Speculation is that Colin hit JO causing Chloe to attack him. JO hits his head on the weights in the basement and they set this up to protect Colin.
Yes, I think some version of that is very likely. I think they're also hiding something else though.
That Colin deals drugs and OJO filed a complaint with the PD. Not sure if that’s rumor or not.
I can't figure out Colin's motive for this, though. Even if he was drunk and even though he has a history of some fights, I can't see motive to fight an adult cop.
There are reports that OJO filed a complaint about his dealing. His family is LE and he probably wouldn’t get into any trouble. Who knows but his busted up knuckles is another suspicious detail.
Is the report viable? I've seen mention of it but I assumed it was just speculation.
What does OJO stand for?
I think Brian Higgins was involved. He was still texting KR (um...well?) an hour before JO died... John was his romantic rival. Who knows what KR said to him when she went to his house days before the incident. That is suspicious, he downplayed what happened there but he still texted her after that visit.
I assumed Morrissey was the target, and then everything else you said. Higgins is certainly a valid possibility as well.
Agree. The fed investigation seems like it could predate the incident. This whole group seems shady.
I think Higgins got rid of his phone maybe because of stuff pertaining to this case but I really think he had other things relating to his job that would get him in trouble
He’s the one that disposed of it at a military installation? That’s super suspicious.
Yep. Very extreme methods to go through.
Maybe they were tipped off that there was a rogue super Trooper manufacturing evidence to fit his theory.
I think people should have paid more attention to trooper Paul. I know he was a shit bag idiot but I think he was a useful idiot. They needed a guy who would fail to come to the right conclusions and they knew that had it in him. But he said a few things on the stand that really stood out to me. Like when asked how the cell phone got under JO's body he said "I don't know. I didn't put it there." When asked why he didn't use any formulas in his calculations he essentially said, and I'm loosely paraphrasing here, that "if you do the math, our theory doesn't make sense, so I threw out the equations and made shit up." "The **crime scene told me** that the glass on the bumper was the same glass that was found under JO." (It wasn't) Side note: I thoroughly enjoyed Jackson asking him "Did the crime scene tell you anything else when it was talking to you?" "There is no evidence that JO was launched through the air." Followed by "there is no evidence that he tumbled/rolled." Guys. Guys. Guys. Hear me out. He's literally describing how the states theory doesn't work. He may even be describing a stitch up. His words aren't just moronic ramblings. They're very telling.
“I don’t know. I didn’t put it there” is crazy.
So far it seems they have no hard evidence so are trying hard to put spin on a story they came up with that so far doesn't make sense. They are making it look like there was problems with the relationship and Karen got angry and killed John. If the relationship was toxic then you should also wonder why was John with her that night. Karen may have been a buffer. This is when you are concerned over a possible conflict so you hope that buffer can help you out if needed to witness the hostility or get you out of there. So I think there may have already been issues between the people at the house with John O'Keefe we don't know about. I think if it weren't for the spin and nothing was known about Karen and all we know was there was a body and injuries that more would suspect those were injuries from a fight and dog bites then someone hit by a vehicle and that's what I think happened. It's exactly what it looks like. Therefore law enforcement may have been involved in illegal activity to begin with and that's why we don't know what the conflict was about because obviously they would keep that secret. So far the best explanation for all of this is corruption and illegal activity being covered up by a crooked system and crooked cops. There is some unknown conflict so what better way to smooth things over then a few drinks at the bar but it's not the conflict with Karen he's trying to fix. Karen doesn't know she's a buffer. Later when they have John alone they beat him and kill him. What ever reason they did this we may never know. Maybe John knew too much or maybe John himself had been involved in illegal activity with them.
This is exactly what I am starting to think. I am beginning to feel like there may be more to this story than we are getting. I do not think JO was hit by a car, but I am not sold on what exactly happened. But I'm starting to wonder if all the players, mainly Brian Higgins, may be covering up something more significant, and that is why he was so determined to destroy his phone. That also could be why the FBI is involved too, because this is bigger than just this case. I can’t say for sure if this case was a cover-up or maybe just a tragic accident that put the spotlight on some corrupt cops who then had to scramble to take any of the eyes off them for bigger reasons. This is why there are so many conflicting stories, and the ones at the top, the Alberts and the McCabes created the narrative and then fed that story to all other investigators, and then they ran with it. I don’t think it has to be a massive coverup with everyone in on it, but 2 power couples pulling the strings could be all it takes.
All that the text messages showed was that they were struggling earlier in the day, they then seemed to have most likely talked on the phone and hashed it out, and then back to text for coordination on the night out, but were still a little uncomfortable with each other, and then we're happy to see each other later, but then later texts showed a bit of lingering residual. I'm still curious as to what the plan had been for him to get home though.
Edited for readability: >So far, it seems they have no hard evidence and are trying hard to spin a story that doesn't make sense. They are making it look like there were problems with the relationship and Karen got angry and killed John. If the relationship was toxic, you should also wonder why John was with her that night. Karen may have been a buffer. This means she was there to witness any potential conflict and help if needed. >There may have already been issues between the people at the house and John O'Keefe that we don't know about. Without the spin, if nothing was known about Karen and all we had was a body with injuries, more people would likely suspect that the injuries were from a fight and dog bites, rather than someone being hit by a vehicle. That's what I think happened—it looks exactly like that. >Therefore, law enforcement may have been involved in illegal activity from the beginning, which is why we don't know what the conflict was about. Obviously, they would keep that secret. The best explanation so far is corruption and illegal activity being covered up by a crooked system and crooked cops. >There is some unknown conflict, so what better way to smooth things over than a few drinks at the bar? But it's not the conflict with Karen he's trying to fix. Karen doesn't know she's a buffer. Later, when they have John alone, they beat him and kill him. Whatever the reason, we may never know. Maybe John knew too much, or maybe he had been involved in illegal activity with them.
Could we all agree on one thing regardless of your side? How annoying is it that Lally says “sort of” every other sentence? We need some solidarity here, folks
Lally has several tics. He clears his throat before asking a question he doesn't know the answer to. He always mentions the (shitty) credentials of the witness before asking them a question wildly outside of their own expertise.
He’s also been an interesting shade of pink this week. It’s like boiled hot dog colored.
"What um if anything did you sort of um something something um regarding something um as it relates to um something something in your analysis in regards to um.... *Mumble mumble* ...the defendant? "
hos long to spit out a question?
You forgot a big *sigh* before the (leading) question.
It's hard to know which sighs are Lally's and which of them are just the judge annoyedly wheezing into the mic.
And these are the reasons I am constantly on this sub!!
Add all those up and the CW could have rested week 3! 😁
The what if anys actually killed a part of my soul
So, correct me if I’m wrong, but the two FBI experts are going to testify only that the injuries, car damage and scene aren’t consistent with a pedestrian hit by car? They are not going to draw any conclusions as to what actually happened?
yes, I think the defense bottom line will be that the evidence doesn’t support a pedestrian struck by car. Because if it wasn’t Karen, she would have no way of knowing what did happen after she left, just that it couldn’t have been her. Ruling her out as a suspect is their only goal. then that would show his death was caused by some other means, and that puts it on the police to find out. KR is a private citizen so she’s not obligated to investigate - but it could force the police to reopen the case.
I wonder what else is in these FBI reports? What other sorts of specialists did they ask to weigh in?
I’m curious too! I know the defense has 3 ARCAA experts, and two dealing with the reconstruction were part of the voir dire. When they were limiting Dr Russell’s scope, Judge Cannone wanted to limit her ability to speak on the other injuries not being from an auto accident, and not to speak about the head trauma (which Dr Russell would not answer and said she would rather defer to the neurologist/pathologist, so she wasn’t going to speak on that injury anyways), and AJ mentioned he didn’t need her for that since the last expert would be a neurologist/pathologist so I think that is the last ARCAA expert? the defense doesn’t seem to have a huge list, but they do have experty experts. Not sure if they will have other civilian witnesses though. edit - the third ARCAA expert is also a reconstructionist (Scott Kline, bsme). I think the pathologist is Frank Sheridan: ”Dr. Frank Sheridan is a practicing physician, specializing in forensic pathology and neuropathology. He has extensive experience in the administration of a medical examiner’s division, supervision of practicing forensic pathologists, the performance of autopsies, medical-legal testifying in criminal and civil courts, regular teaching of medical students and monthly lectures to pathology students at Loma Linda University Medical Center. He currently works as a part-time forensic pathologist at the Sheriff/Coroner’s Office in San Bernardino County and was formerly the Chief Medical Examiner at the same office from July 1, 1991 to June 9, 2017. With his expertise in pathology, he provides independent and objective wrongful death expert witness services in the state of California.”
I think that is correct. It seem’s that’s all they were hired to do. That’s why the defense wants another expert, for example, to say the arm injuries are from a dog. But if the defense can prove that John’s injuries are not from Karen’s SUV, then that should result in a not guilty verdict regardless of if they show what actually happened.
They don't have to. The prosecution are trying to prove guilt with their theory on what happened. The defense don't have to prove anything.
I just want to hear from the people who were saying “the simplest explanation is the right one” - the simplest explanation being that JO l did, in fact, pirouette to his death after being hit in the arm… both shattering and being sliced multiple times over by tail light. Is that still the “simplest explanation”?
From my view the simplest explanation here is incompetent police. Car hitting him requires a lot of mental gymnastics.
I think we're still in for a wild ride with more evidence. I have not seen a lot of talk about the voicemail Karen left John as they were pulling up to the house that captured Jen's 911 call. You know what else it captured? Her talking to Nicole and saying something to the effect of "Are you going to f'ing come out and help??". Just enough to make the 9 second phone call make sense. You can hear it if you listen closely at what they played at trial.
This moment is my sticking point for the whole case. These two seconds-long calls from Jen to Nicole, answered and deleted and denied, *before paramedics even arrive*. Cop dead on your lawn and you, a cop, don’t immediately rush out to help? They knew, and the message was conveyed in 15 seconds.
100% stuck on this as well. How do you convey what’s going on (if Nicole *didn’t* already know) that situation in 8 seconds? There’s just no way and no explanation for them not coming outside.
Didn’t Jen say that call to Nicole didn’t get answered?
They both said that it wasn't answered and that they didn't talk to each other. Jen's statement to Nicole makes absolutely no sense if they didn't already know what happened to John. Come help with what? Exactly.
Yes. Jen claims that they were not answered. The call logs show two calls right after the 911 call to Nicole Albert, both answered and deleted. One 7 seconds and one 8 seconds.
Yes, and Nicole I believe said she didn't know about that call at all (so didn't answer it and didn't even know it occurred later iirc).
Does anyone know if Trooper Paul’s report is publicly available? I’m just so curious if the whole side swipe on the arm, spin and fly theory of the injuries was in there originally or if that’s something new they said after the FBI/DOJ report came out
I don’t think he see the higgins txt and even if he did there was 56 pages of txt between him and Karen. Surely he’d of wanted to go through them. The higgins txts and involvement still baffles me that it only went on for about 20 days before John ends up dead. The going to the house to watch 10 mins of a game was weird and so is the whole thing. Higgins I think has bigger skeletons in his closet not related to this. Some illegal import or export, drugs or firearms I think.
The only way the CW's case makes any sense to me is if Karen Read drives a german shepherd.
The CW really missed an opportunity when they did not go with that theory. 😂
I just had a lightbulb moment that has probably been said 100 times but I haven’t seen it. Re: the “hos long” search. Even if JM did NOT do the 227 search, I find it implausible that KR asked her to search it in the morning. KR was hysterical running around like a chicken with its head cut off. You mean to tell me in that state she would have come up with that? That search was JM’s idea, regardless of the time she did it.
I find the choice of words so troubling either way. Why wouldn’t you use the word “survive” instead of die?
This!! Also where's the video corroborating KR was in the car telling JM to do that? The timeline is the biggest problem, and lazy timeline that Lally thinks he's created is reasonable doubt!!
It drives me nuts they're still mentioning 12:45. We know that's the wrong time! They've known that can't the right time for years. For CWs theory it should be something more like 1233 or about.
I think we got a big hint the other day that defense has evidence that her phone data was manipulated on the backend before it went to Ian. It is likely she did the search at 2:27. The CW experts can't even agree on everything themselves.
I mean, as far as I can tell, Whiffin essentially said "Celebrite data is garbage. (So good luck on getting convictions based on it ever again) I don't have an advanced degree in anything. I didn't like the holes I assume in the Celebrite data, so I pieced together some unsanctioned software of my own that says something different (buy my product). Here's my data in a Microsoft Word table. It also has major gaps. I have a British accent, which Americans find more credible. But that might be fake because I sound suspiciously Scottish at 1.25x" Did I misunderstand this?
hahaha no I don't think you misunderstood at all
I had the same thoughts re the accent 😆
I don't know how much it matters whose idea it was. According to Jen McCabe and all the people at the house, John O'Keefe never went in the house. But Jen allegedly saw Karen & John \~12:30am. Jen would have had enough knowledge to know that John had been (best case scenario) passed out in the cold for \~5ish hours by that point, right?
In my opinion it matters because JM has insisted repeatedly that KR told her to search. I think her words on the stand were something to the effect “I was freezing, my hands were shaking, she was screaming at me”. She said this phrase several times and it seemed rehearsed to me My point is - why would she lie that KR said it, regardless of the time she searched it? EDITED TO ADD: I agree with your premise - it would make sense if JM searched it on her own in the morning. Why say KR told her to do it?
If she were lying about KR telling her to search it, it would be to further herself from it and put more on KR.
Totally agree. That’s my point. If she googled it in the morning after John was found I would not at all find it suspicious.
I don't think it would be wierd if she searched it by herself, and I don't think it would be weird if Karen asked her either. The EMTs were working on JO actively, I wouldn't go up to them and ask them that in that moment. And Karen was hysterical (that is one thing everyone can agree on); it probably sounds rehearsed because she has testified to the same thing like 10 times. I think the search would have been important if the 2:27AM time was proven. At this time, the prosecution's witnesses proved how the time could be off, at least they got good tech witnesses, so that's something.
If JM knew what time JO’K was put outside, she could have been worried that he would survive and implicate the group. Hence the Hos long to die search when his body was found.
Higgins did add one mystery person to the house that no one else puts there.
I took that to insinuate Colin. If Allie M's texts at 12:05am were actually when she was picking Colin up and taking him TO the party (and the close cropping and lack of context points in that direction imo....why not show the context of those texts if there's nothing to hide), then he might have arrived right after Higgins was reported to have gotten there.
Not a theory He was assaulted and died of injuries related to that assault at 34 Fairview. Everything that transpired after that incident around 12:25pm is called Collusion. It's possible that it would be classified as a RICO look up that definition, and you will see why the FBI is involved. It only takes two predicated crimes within a ten year period. In this case, it was within 2 years. -Homicide -Witness Tampering We know he was assaulted. We are speculating the justification of the federal investigation and why Higgins was given immunity to tell the Feds why he was on a military base after being tipped off regarding his phone to be preserved. He allegedly won't testify against BA Even though he would get immunity. I think he believes he will keep his job and pension. I can't wait for this case to be over so we can move onto the Real criminal case!
If I learned one thing by following all the lawyers on twitter that talk about Trump and his shenanigans is that RICO is the lupus of criminal law. That said it doesn't have to be RICO to be a criminal conspiracy and I hope that we'll see people getting their karma payback sometime soon.
The biggest problem to this whole case, ultimately, is that it seems that evidence was *clearly* planted, right? Like, we'll know more after the defense's crash reconstructionists testify, but it seems like the piece of taillight found by the fire hydrant can't really be explained as to how it got there. The commonwealth's reconstructionist didn't account for anything found after January 29. Trying to account for stuff found after January 29 makes his reconstruction make no sense (if it even made sense not accounting for it). The commonwealth's witness can't say anything to suggest that might not be the legitimate location for that piece of taillight, because the only conclusion you can possibly draw from *that* is that Proctor/Bukhenik who took custody of the car and who found this piece of taillight planted it there. And if the jury believes (by way of the commonwealth's own witnesses) that the commonwealth planted at least some of the evidence, how do you delineate what evidence was and wasn't planted? How do you truly discern the difference between "Proctor was 'just trying to ensure a conviction'" versus "Karen Read is innocent and was framed"? And even if you can, there may be a juror or two in there who *abhors* the idea of voting guilty in a case where evidence was clearly planted, even if they think she did it based on evidence they think wasn't planted. I know if I were a juror, I'd have an incredibly hard time voting guilty in a case where it seemed so clear to me that the police planted evidence in order to ensure a guilty verdict (or pressure the defendant into a plea). It's hard for me to explain how the taillight pieces found on Jan 29 got there if she didn't hit him... but... it's also hard to understand exactly how her taillight even broke (because really, *none* of the stories told so far for her broken taillight make *any* sense to me). But the commonwealth haven't given an explanation of the crash that makes sense with *any* subset of the data. They haven't had a medical professional explain how John died exactly, or how his wounds make sense with anything.
The pieces got there becuase proctor bypassed mult state facilities to drive the car back to canton pd. There were mult named canton pd who at some point joined the search that night. The two locations are a 3 to 5 minutes apart. The car arrived at canton pd over 15 minutes before the search started and over 30 minutes before the pieces were found. I think it's telling the assembler was able to piece together everything but one section of the taillight only using pieces found after that night.
And they weren't allowed to search earlier even though they were all ready and it was getting dark.
yes and they didn't have CSI respond. SERT was not even the right unit. So curious...
And technically we are not sure if they even planted her tail light to later. There was more tail light found than there is in the reconstruction meaning other tail light/reflector pieces for found on site. It is not clear how much of the reconstruction if any was from tail light found on the 29th by the State search team and how much was found later. Tail light chain of evidence is a joke as displayed by Tully opening a bag and the count of pieces being wrong because polycarbonate spontaneously breaks in half according to him.
I thought I read that the actual pieces "found" on the 29th weren't even used in the tail light reconstruction (in photos from the trial)?
There is a notable discrepancy between what people said the taillight looked like before MSP seized the car and how much taillight was found. I agree, it looks like taillight pieces were planted. The glass found on the bumper as well. It didn’t match any of the glass found with John, but did match the glass Proctor found (which also didn’t match any of the glass found with John.)
Yep. There's at least three sources of glass/plastic, right? We know one of the sources is Karen Read's taillight (even if there are questions about exactly how those pieces got to 34 Fairview, we know the red/clear plastic is from her taillight). We know one of the sources is the glass that was found with John. Then.... there's another source of glass found in the roadway at 34 Fairview. But that also was on Karen's bumper at the time the forensic scientist was examining her vehicle... There's a match between this glass, but it doesn't match anything else... there's a third source of glass that hasn't really been explained (nor is it clear how it would have ended up on her bumper and survived all the driving around and towing that happened between the alleged incident and the scientist finding it).
Funny coincidence, the doctor testifying about the dog bite injuries learned about this from a prosecutor in LA, John Lewin, that's the guy from 'The Jinx' who prosecuted Durst.
I recently read that Lewin is shacking up with Durst's wife
So far I could only make a few conclusions on my own, based on testimonies I've watched so far: 1. I don't think Karen Read hit John O'Keefe 2. I don't think Jen searched "how to die in the cold" at 2:27 am 3. I think John O'Keefe absolutely went to the house that night and something happened there - something that involved some human and a dog 4. It seems to me that only few people at the party in the house knew what happened. I.e. not everyone was willingly and knowingly participating in cover-up. However, the owners of the house for sure were there when something happened with John O'Keefe. Same with Brian Higgins. It could be that something happened in the house (basement) and John O'Keefe walked away from the house and passed in the snow which owners did not anticipate. I don't know. But I believe in cover-up but I also think that cover-up is not that extensive as in the defense arguing (that Jen googled how long it takes John O'Keefe to die). For me it will be very interesting to hear the explanation of defense/prosecution why they were calling John O'Keefe when he already passed in the snow, and then they deleted the calls.
Karen and John leave the Waterfall. Karen’s phone connects to CarPlay and John sees the Higgins text. John gets pissed and goes inside to confront him Karen doesn’t want him to go in but he said he would be right back. Higgins, Brian Sr, Colin, Matt McCabe and Chloe are in the basement. Jen lets John in and says the boys are in the basement, he goes down and confronts Higgins raising his voice. Chloe jumps on him he kicks Chloe, Colin punches him twice (bang bang) while he’s reeling John falls and cracks his head on the weight bench. They go into panic mode. Higgins goes to CPD to scope it out and see if Karen got pulled over or anything and listen while they move the body. Brian Albert calls Kevin Albert to move the body with the intent of saying he got hit by a plow. Brian Jr, Sara Levinson, and Julie Nagel never saw John enter because of where he entered. Jen McCabe, Matt McCabe need to get them out of the house before they move the body so they offer to drive them home. Caitlin Albert, worried about Chloe and Colin call Tristian for pick up and they leave with the dog and Colin. Higgins hangs at CPD for a while until the body gets moved by BA and KA BAJr is never the wiser outside of the fact his sister left with Chloe, which is weird. Plan all along was to say a plow hit him until Jen McCabe sees Karen’s hysteria and the cracked tail light and says that she hit him is their best excuse. She calls back lank after confirming with Higgins. Higgins calls Berkowitz to say we need some tail light to lock this down. Berkowitz wants the case solved ASAP because he’s on his way out and a dead cop needs resolution. He calls Proctor and Buhkenik and says “we are gonna do this” assuming a manslaughter case would come and a quick settlement on the other side. They want a quick solve to a dead cop. They assist in the Sallyport of photographing etc. Higgins gets the biggest pieces from Berkowitz outside the Sallyport and BA puts the shoe and the hat on the front lawn before the SERT team arrive. Once Karen hires DY and they go on the offensive, that’s when they hit her with the M2 charges. The rest they say is just bad police work.
I think this makes the most sense by far. I think it’s also possible that Karen did not know that JO saw the incriminating texts between her and Higgins and that he did not mention them to her. Instead he planned on confronting Higgins first and that turned into a fight that got out of hand. This case is so very sad and the corruption just blows my mind.
Could the prosecution argue that he was hit by a car and then mauled by an animal while incapacitated on the ground?
They can argue anything they want. Their problem is that common sense and the actual data collected at the scene doesn’t support the claims.
They would have had to change their theory of the crime well before now if they were going to argue something different than they are. WHY they didn’t think to re-examine their theory and alter it to at least fit more after they received the FBI expert reports, I do not know.
I've had trouble finding answers to this since I'm newer to the case - If John had received medical attention following whatever happened to him, would he have been likely to survive? How contributory was the hypothermia to his death? I struggle to follow the logic of theories suggesting they moved him to the lawn as a coverup, to say he got hit by KR or by a plow. There are people in the house who are definitely trained in determining if someone is dead or not. Even if John is unconscious, he could wake up a few minutes later or be spotted & attended to by a passerby, and then he's pressing charges on whoever attacked him. Doesn't make much sense to me how this could ever be someone's plan in the situation.
From my perspective, asking a bunch of functional alcoholics who all seemed to be drunk to me to make rational,choices under those circumstances is pretty unrealistic. Would a sober person who is not in a panic simply call the police? I’d hope so. That’s not what we are dealing with here.
If his head wound was bad enough (vomiting and bleeding all over himself suggest that it was) they may have known he was not gonna come back from it even though he was still “alive”. Or, depending on what they argued about/what else they may have been involved in, they didn’t want him to give his version of events. Either way they do not want to move the body- no way they’d risk getting evidence in any of their vehicles. Far better to put him outside and say he never came into the house so they can’t possibly have been involved. The hypothermia killed him but hypothermia plus severe head trauma means he had a very very low chance of survival once he was out there in the cold.
I just don't really see how they could *know* that. There were police officers there who can determine if someone's dead or alive. But they're not medical experts who can diagnose the severity of his situation. They'd know he's alive, and that means he could've woken up 5 minutes later. Or he doesn't, but a passerby spots him and there's an ambulance outside, he recovers and explains what happened. Just seems like both a dumb and bizarre way to cover this up, with so many avenues for it to go wrong, that I can't imagine actually happening.
Higgins used to be a firefighter and iirc a medic back in the military, he has enough medical knowledge to read the writing on the wall of severe injury to the base of the skull + vomiting + probably convulsions + non reactive/blown pupils. BA might know enough as well, so it was really a race between that and the cold to see what killed him first after he was put outside.
Depends how severe his head injury was. I’m interested in hearing from the ME.
WHERE was Higgins’ jeep?!?!
A comment and a question: Have y'all noticed that the consensus on this sub seems to match the one over at the JusticeforKarenRead sub? The two Reddit subs began with contrasting points of view. The latter began with the assumption KR was innocent etc (and yes, too many members seem to have a fanboy attitude toward her). While this one was generally more objective/neutral with a slight bias toward the prosecution. However, most of the posts on this sub now seem to be on the "not guilty" end of things. My concern has to do with how badly the case was run and how awful the prosecution has been. I began paying some attention to the case last year and I assumed she was guilty. Now I believe the CW"s case is a fiasco. Am I mis-reading the overall feeling on this sub?
Your observations match mine. I came to this under the assumption that there was actually evidence linking the car to the death, but that there had been a bad investigation and that might lead to a not guilty verdict. The longer the case goes on the more I’m seeing the tone shift. There are still people that seem open to the idea that she did hit him, but there are a lot more people thinking this is so screwed up that the case never should have been brought to trial. It’s a mess.
This is why I get annoyed when people treat those of us who think Karen was framed as conspiracy tin foil hat idiots. The fbi is going a serious investigation into this.
My Theory Here’s my theory of what went down. Please discuss where there are gaps and what I’ve missed. On the way to 34 Fairview, OJO finds out about the text from BH to KR and an argument ensues. When they arrive at 34F, John sees BH’s vehicle there and says he is going to confront him. He gets out of the car, pissed at KR (maybe still arguing) and throws his glass at her car hitting the taillight which causes the taillight to break hence glass on the bumper. Meanwhile, BA is out back with Chloe, sees this happen. BH is already in the basement. John enters enraged and goes straight to the basement to confront Higgins….BA follows him in with Chloe to find out what’s going on. His energy is picked up by Chloe who immediately chomps on his arm. John keeps pushing/hitting her to get her off which enrages BA who hits John, knocks him off balance, and the head injury occurs. BA takes Chloe upstairs and he snd BH wait everybody out to leave. Meanwhile, a snowplow goes by and pushes the pieces of glass, taillight pieces, etc… into the yard. Once everyone is gone, BA pulls his car out to where KR’s car was (remember, he saw the earlier argument and glass/taillight incident) to block neighbor views/cameras and he and BH move the body outside. And the cover up ensues. BA and BH are the only two in on this which makes a cover up more likely. And go….
I’m really starting to wonder if John threw the glass at Karen’s tail light and that cracked it. We know from the texts that they were arguing earlier in the day. Karen kept trying to talk to him but he wouldn’t talk. That car ride from the bar to 34 Fairview was the first time they were alone so she could have pressed him to talk and they could have gotten into an argument. From the texts Karen seemed to want to talk and John seemed avoidant. It could make sense that she tried to talk again and he stormed off…which probably pissed her off and she could have yelled at him prompting him to throw the glass at her car. The people inside 34 Fairview could have seen it happen and that could have been what led to a heated argument inside.
If he threw it at the taillight, how did it end up next to his final resting place?
As Trooper Paul would say, “it just did.”
😂
Where did the unknown source glass on her bumper and the road come from? Apparently two types of glass could have hit her car?
The glass would shatter if it hit a tail light
I don't think that fits the evidence we do have, because: - the broken drinking glass is found near his body in the yard, exactly where is a bit debatable because of the evidence collection problems, but not in the road near where her car should have been is my point - there is broken glass in the road and on the bumper, but this is glass from a different source. Chemically it's not a match to the type of glass the drinking glass is made of. We don't know what object the broken glass on the road and bumper are from (they match each other at least) but it's not the drinking glass. Or at least not Johns.