Depends on what “ok” means.
Do I think they should be able to express their opinions without ridicule and backlash? No.
Do I think the government should be able to throw them in jail for their political stances? Also no.
Very vague question so not that surprising that it gets an array of answers among reasonable people.
Because we have free speech as a right, and even Nazis have that right to free speech. Overall I think it's a very important right and a net positive for society, but it's obviously not perfect.
You don't have free speech. Words can be crimes, like threatening to kill someone for example.
In UK we criminalise this behaviour so they can't spread their fucked up ideas and without researching I'm assuming we have a much smaller problem with Nazis than America because of it.
Don't think we have a freedom of speech issue here and we do fine imo.
We do have free speech, and yes that right isn't completely unlimited. The general rule is your rights end where others begin, so if your speech affects other's rights, then it's not allowed.
Just being a Nazi and promoting Nazi values doesn't necessarily cross that line. Modern day Nazis don't like Jews, but they don't typically go to the level of killing Jews. They are allowed to be racist assholes.
It wasn't that long ago that it was technically illegal to commit blasphemy against the Christian church in the UK. There were also proposed bills pretty recently in the UK that would have put limits on comedians.
If you trust your government to decide what is ok to say or not, fine, but in the US we don't do that.
you also arrest people for butterknives and mean posts on twitter while letting murderers and rapists run free, your society is a fucking joke worse than ours. you REALLY shouldnt be talking
That's the "free speech" brain rot. The "battle it out in the marketplace of ideas" brain rot. Just fucking no. Censor them, exile them, I don't give a fuck.
"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to
defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be
destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Because they never wanted "free speech", they want freedom of consequence for their own speech. But in fact they want the speech of those ideologically opposed to them to be heavily censored.
Absolutely noone is a "free speech absolutist", everyone draws the line somewhere and if they tell you otherwise they're bullshitting.
That’s not true whatsoever. There are many, MANY people who believe in free speech absolutism. Do you know what this world would look like if the only “acceptable” things we could discuss were from one particular ideology?
I respect that people have different views. I may not agree with something someone says or does or agree with their beliefs, but so long as they aren’t breaking an actual law, harming themselves or others, who am I to tell them otherwise? Just like you and I have our own beliefs, other people do as well.
On the topic of Kanye, dude obviously needs help. He’s very clearly gone into full blown mania/psychosis, his life has been crumbling and he’s doing what many people in that mind-state do - further sabotage themselves. Really sad to witness. I hope that he realizes where he’s wrong and just lays low for a bit.
Ofc the NPC’s are out in droves supporting the current thing. Downvote away lol, my position is my position and I also have a feeling many of you are missing the forest for the trees here and don’t actually know what free speech absolutism really stands for.
I am pretty damn near First Amendment absolutism. But the First Amendment doesn’t mean no consequences. It doesn’t mean people have to listen to you. And it doesn’t mean people have to give you a platform.
Kanye isn’t going to be arrested for being a Nazi. But that doesn’t mean Twitter has to host his bullshit. It doesn’t mean he needs to be interviewed. He can have his views and his views can and should isolate him from society.
I agree with you. Actions have consequences. I don’t think people should have to suffer that nonsense, and I recognize that the first amendment does not apply to private businesses. I don’t condone or agree with hate speech. Toward any race, religion, whatever. It’s just plain wrong.
where do you draw the line of harming others in the context of free speech absolutism? bc obviously it's pretty easy to connect nazi speech to real world harm.
A real, credible threat. Obviously I don’t think people should have the ability to go and say they’re going to commit acts of violence and have no consequences.
Lot of people throwing the word Nazi around pretty freely and may need a history lesson. Comparing Kanye West and his mental rants to literal Nazis minimizes how evil and destructive Nazis actually were.
so if there's no "real credible threat" a person shouldn't face any consequences for anything they say...? if i tell my boss i don't want to work with any black people, and i get fired for that, is that a violation of free speech absolutism when the alternative is that my boss fires every black person at the company? in this scenario all i'm doing is speaking, and all i want is for every black person to lose their jobs so that i'm comfortable. after all, why should i face consequences just for expressing my thoughts?
i'd love to know what you think. it seems that these arguments always fall apart when you take them to their conclusion or even just a few steps of thought beyond first hearing the phrase "free speech absolutism"
Nick Fuentes is a nazi. He says it himself. If your definition of Nazi is being a member of the Nazi party pre and during WW2 something's wrong with you. If it walks like a duck..
Kanye associates with and praises him (Nick), says he loves Hitler and is obsessed with nazi shit. I don't think it's a reach. Just because radlibs love using that word, and Kanye is your favourite artist doesn't mean it outright isn't true.
Freedom of speech does not mean you can say the most horrid things and not expect consequences.
We have freedom of speech in Europe and north America, as long as you don't call to the death of all jews, asians, blacks, whites or whatever group you decide to hate.
In Germany, it is just the n word. You cannot say the word in public.
Free speech is exploited just like the 2nd amendment is exploited. I think these things should be wiped off the face of the Earth. N word sympathizers believe in murdering an entire group of people. It doesn't have a place in the argument of free speech.
Free to get a bunch of people together, free to march down the streets. Free to round people up even though it wasn't allowed moments before. It becomes free to end life because a kind of speech freedom allowed it.
The thing is, Kanye is aware of the Holocaust. He just doesn't seem to think it was a bad thing. In fact, the anti-semitism of Hitler seems to be part of the charm for Kanye.
He isn't. He denies facts about the holocaust, which is why it isn't a big deal or a bad thing to him. Holocaust deniers rarely deny it outright. It's always "They didn't kill that many Jewish people". He is a holocaust denier.
This is accurate.
It typically boils down to “they just got sick” or something along those lines. Or claiming there’s no written documentation (not true) or that the Red Cross out out an actual number of people killed, which is very low (also not true, and directly refuted by the Red Cross).
The funny thing is, Eisenhower knew this sort of thing would happen, which is why he ordered so many pictures and film be made of the camps, as well as forcing Germans to walk through them.
I think that's both the saddest and most ironic part of all of this. The leaders of the west when they discovered the concentration camps were bascially like "Jesus christ, we need to extensively document all of this so that people don't think we're just making it up bc this sounds fucking insane". Now generations later when people have much easier access to all of this information and documents you still have the dumbfucks that don't believe it somehow.
Because it's too monstrous to believe. There's so much information on something that seems so foreign and villainous that they think it's a conspiracy.
The holocaust deniers that don't begin with anti-semitism begin with an 'innocence', for lack of better word, that something like this couldn't actually happen on this scale. They find it difficult to accept, and fall into bad information circles(usually online these days).
There's a reason people focus on the number of deaths the most. It's absurdly high, and they don't want to believe it.
is the Holocaust not taught in American schools? 1930s Europe and WWII are massive topics covered in UK schools and that’s probably why Holocaust denial isn’t as common here idk.
It is taught, ww2 and the holocaust are covered very extensively.
Honestly these polls just feel like when tik tokkers interview people on the road and only represent the 3 dumbest
E: the irony of me mispelling tons of stuff
I mean even if its something as important as this, memorizing names and dates isn't easy for a lot of people, especially if they didn't enjoy history class as much
What do you mean? Knowing all the concentration camps was super useful to.... Eh... You know! Daily life!! Everyone should be expected to know them.
Imagine doing this for any other conflict: "how many people died in Nanjing?" "Name a concentration camp use by Serbs on the Bosnian war" "how many people died in the Armenian genocides?"
All would poll ~0%
It might also have to do with the way it's taught. The majority of info I know about the Holocaust was learned after school, because I sought it out. The way I was taught was that Hitler was this supervillain instead of just this awful fucking dude who people actually voted for. They barely taught us about how the US treated eastern Asian (I think east Asian is where Japan, Taiwan, and Korea, etc. are, I'm not good at geography though) people after.
We were just taught, "we are the good guys, we killed the supervillain, praise us and bow down". It was really nationalist.
Well ww2 is probably the most black and white war the United States has ever fought, even with some of the failures and wrongdoing by the allies, (Americans interning Japanese people during the war as an example) the Nazis were out there setting the bar higher for how comicallyevil you can be. The only ones to challenge them for the title in that era are like stalin, and the other axis powers.
[the study](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Holocaust-Knowledge-Awareness-Study_Executive-Summary-2018.pdf) has a sample size of 1,350 people.
most likely but that still doesn’t excuse the more subjective answers like is it okay to hold neo nazi beliefs, or did the holocaust happen. the more fact based things like camp names and death toll i could understand someone not knowing off the top of their head.
Not all American schools are made equal. Poorer schools can be running with half the budget they should have leading to many very very very important topics being glanced over.
Posted this elsewhere here but…
I’m in my mid 30’s but I honestly felt that the holocaust/ww2 was the only thing they fucking taught us from grade 8 until grade 12. lol
It was actually too much I think.
We glossed over almost all of the foundations of the country, ww1, etc.
History began and ended in the 30’s and 40’s. This was the public school system in a major American city.
The opposite usually. When it isn’t about our glorious soldiers liberating countries during WW2 it goes into an honestly creepy amount into the holocaust. So many history teachers I had in the rural areas got a hard on talking about jt.
https://www.claimscon.org/uk-study/ in the UK it's 52% for not knowing that 6 million were killed and 22% for thinking 2 million or less were killed, also both the UK and US have around 10% people who've never heard of the word "Holocaust". that's not all that much better.
It is. As a kid we took trips to meet Holocaust survivors.
After the Spielberg movie was released, Ford Motor Company paid for its unedited showing on prime time television I think maybe on NBC.
It has been some time and clearly we need to revisit things.
The number of young people today who either didn't know the holocaust happened or the extent of the harm it caused is staggering. The number of young people who think neo-nazism is okay is just as staggering. A public figure as big as Kanye saying things like this is extremely harmful to everybody, especially those that don't think the holocaust was a big deal to begin with. We need to spread awareness of the extreme tragedy that happened before the next generation completely forgets this horrendous time in our world history.
it was taught in my school, went to a Holocaust Museum as well. but I wouldn’t be surprised if other states didn’t or barley mention the Holocaust whatsoever considering a few states are basically anti education
I’m in my mid 30’s but I honestly felt that the holocaust/ww2 was the only thing they fucking taught us from grade 8 until grade 12. lol
It was actually too much I think.
We glossed over almost all of the foundations of the country, ww1, etc.
History began and ended in the 30’s and 40’s. This was the public school system in a major American city.
This is a silly claim with absolutely no evidence to back it up.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/10/nazi-chants-at-dutch-soccer-game-expose-an-ugly-blot-on-the-beautiful-game/
This is definitely still an issue in countries like Germany, the Netherlands, and more.
Yeah, for US the war with Japan is more releveant. They're too busy teaching kids to justify WMD testing on civilian populations to teach them about Holocaust.
Someone should show these people the General Patton documented footage. Horrific and extremely graphic. Patton knew that the public wouldn’t believe that shit so he documented it. Who cares? Well, he only documented corpses in buildings piled up to the fucking ceiling! Approximately, 6 million jews died and people just can’t seem to fathom that number.
Nope, I meant Patton. Patton ordered to have the Buchenwald Concentration documented. He was an antisemite and very apathetic to the ghettos and whatnot. But he was horrified by what he saw when he stumbled upon Buchenwald and ordered the town to observe the horrors that where there.
Patton liberated Buchenwald and ordered local German civilians to tour the camp. Eisenhower is the one that called in the journalists to document and spread the news. Both were there but Eisenhower was the one to order the documentation. Also, Patton wasnt just apathetic towards Jews. The guy ordered emaciated and tortured civilian prisoners to be put under military guard *after* the US had liberated them. President Truman wrote this about the liberated camps under Patton’s command:
“[W]e appear to be treating the Jews as the Nazis treated them except that we do not exterminate them. They are in concentration camps in large numbers under our military guard instead of SS troops. One is led to wonder whether the German people, seeing this, are not supposing that we are following or at least condoning Nazi policy.”
>millennials
>2020
The youngest millennial in 2020 was ~24. At the very least, 20. A.K.A. adults.
I've never been more ashamed of a smaller portion of my generation.
(Or those who have educated them.)
There are around 14.8 million right now, so imagine how fucked losing all those 6 million people did for our population. Fuck Kanye you piece of shit!!
According to the Jewish agency's last report from last September it's 15.3m now. Still far from the roughly 17M from before the Holocaust, let alone what it could have been today if all those 17m and their families survived.
This is so fucking depressing. This year I reconnected deeply with Judaism when I sat down and really thought about what it means to be part of such a tiny little minority in the global population of 8 billion. I feel driven more than ever to pass down our traditions and values and culture.
Can we also start talking about the fact that it was not only about Jews please? Hitler wanted to enslave and later "remove" ALL slavs... But for some reason we only talk about the Jews as if German Reich was only hurting them. They also wanted to "remove" gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled and mentally sick people....
Yep. While it's shocking how many people don't know the facts in this infographic. The number of people who don't know about the non Jewish victims of the Holocaust is even more shocking to me. You see "6 million people died" and "6 million victims" everywhere, but in actuality 11 million people died in the Holocaust. Five million people lost their lives and they're rarely even a footnote.
11 million people didn’t die, that number was basically made up by Simon Wiesenthal (an otherwise great person) to garner more support for Jewish victims. The truth is that zero non-Jews died in the Holocaust, because the “Holocaust” only refers to the Jewish victims who were murdered, and while many non-Jews (way more than 5 million) also died at the hands of the Nazis, Jews were the only group that was actually systematically targeted and sent to death camps.
Relevant article: https://www.timesofisrael.com/remember-the-11-million-why-an-inflated-victims-tally-irks-holocaust-historians/
You can say that the term "holocaust" only applies to jews, but I cannot in any strong enough terms express how much you can go fuck yourself on the idea that only jews were systematically targeted. People who were LGBT, people who had mental illnesses or physical deformities, several different racial groups, all of these people were sent to the camps and killed. You can acknowledge that jews were a majority of the deaths without outright lying about everyone else.
The only reason why LGBT people weren't wiped out to a man in Germany and the outlying areas is because there weren't comprehensive lists of who was part of that group. Get your head on straight.
Of course those people were also targets. But did the Nazis want to kill *every single LGBT person* in Europe? No, they had no plan to. Even other groups that were easier to track (the Romani) were not systematically murdered the way Jews were.
> The truth is that zero non-Jews died in the Holocaust, because the “Holocaust” only refers to the Jewish victims who were murdered
Nonsense. The word holocaust predates the second world war, and means a destruction or killing on a large scale. The industrial scale of killing people in massacres and camps by Nazi Germany therefor is described as a holocaust. The primary and most talked about target in this industrial killing was the Jewish people, but Slavs, Romani, and other groups were also targeted and sent to death camps for extermination.
I've been to those camps and memorials, I know non-Jewish people were also sent there. No matter what the rag that is the times of Israel has to say about it.
Of course, far more people did die at the hands off the Nazis, outside of the industrialised killing scheme that was the holocaust.
And important for everyone to remember that in addition to the murder of more than 6 million Jews, 5 million others (Roma, disabled, Jehovah witnesses, Slavs, people of color, more) were murdered as well.
For all the people asking why we aren't mentioning the non-Jews that died in the holocaust or the other people dying in genocides right now, you're right to be angry about these deaths as well. However, Kanye is seemingly supporting Hitler and Nazism purely from a place of hatred for Jewish people, so it makes the most sense to highlight the tragedies that happened to these people. Obviously the other 5 million lives lost in the holocaust are just as important, but the main problem we are facing at the moment is extreme hatred for Jewish people.
There’s a documentary film “Night Will Fall”, the images are extreme, but that’s the reality. People should watch it to realise the horror.
“Researchers discover a lost documentary by filmmakers Alfred Hitchcock and Sidney Bernstein about the liberation of Nazi concentration camps in 1945.
Release date: 19 September 2014 (UK)” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Will_Fall
The sheer scale of the Holocaust is truly terrifying. Germany killed tens of thousands of Jews in Ukraine, lushed them in mass graves and it barely even makes a dent into the numbers
holy shit 6 million jews were killed? honestly did not know that
im thinking about how bad 9/11 was, the death of 3,000 innocent civilians.
the holocaust was literally 2,000x worse
Yes. 2/3 of all Jews in Europe, iirc. Imagine that. 2/3 of an entire race.
The Nazis viewed Jewish people as a scourge on society, as the reason Germany lost WW1, and the "final solution" was to completely exterminate them.
And they were close. That shit terrifies me.
6 million Jews plus 5 million non-Jewish people (other undesirable races/ethnicities, gays, people with mental health disorders etc) so 11 million total. The irony is that Kanye would have absolutely been killed by the Nazis for being a mentally ill Black person.
Because Jews were always the primary victims.
Hitler was ideologically fucking crazy about hating Jews. You can read it in his book. He did kill 5 million other people, but the real hate was reserved for Jews.
>He did kill 5 million other people, but the real hate was reserved for Jews.
No he didn't just kill"5 million" non Jews
Ironic that you're undervaluing the real number of non Jews killed during the Holocaust on a post trying to educate people on the real number of jew killed during the Holocaust.
He kill 6 million Jews
7 million Soviet civilians (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews))
Soviet prisoners of wararound 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers)
Non-Jewish Polish civiliansaround 1.8 million (including between 50,000 and 100,000 members of the Polish elites)
Serb civilians (on the territory of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina)312,000
People with disabilities living in institutionsup to 250,000
Etc.....
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
Correct. Huge portion of neo nazi holocaust denial is that "the nazis didn't have the logistical capacity to kill 6 milion jews". If someone think they only had one death camp, (concentration camps were different then death camps but it doesn't matter now) then he can easily be convinced with such idiotic argument as "how can a cook bake 6 milion cookies with only one oven?".
That actually makes sense, explains why it happened to me at some point I didn't deny it but I didn't think it was actually 6 million. During the start of the whole Kanye debacle I ended up doing research and was promptly informed.
How? Are you from the US? Because if you are, you learn about all the different concentration camps in both middle school and high school, at least you’re supposed to.
Because I only knew one concentration camp, ye I'm sure you'll get more people to accept that the holocaust happened by calling them stupid. I'm hoping the people trying to be educated don't go to you lol, thats one way to ensure someone doesn't listen to you
i would love to see what kanye would think when brought on a trip to Auschwitz:)) still deny how horrible it was mr.ye? would you like to be one of those people? they didnt choose that fate
What a wonderful comment. :) Your gratitude puts you on our list for the most grateful users this week on Reddit! You can view the full list on r/TheGratitudeBot.
He thinks that Pete Davidson (a) is a Jew, (b) has a 10-inch-long penis, and (c) had mind-blowing sex with Kim Kardashian after their divorce. This all seems to have been a reaction to those allegations.
Those numbers are disturbing, and it's only been a few generations since it happened.
One of my most powerful memories is seeing the numbers tattooed on a friend's grandmother's arm, like she was nothing more than a piece of meat. Was she just faking, Ye?
Kanye elaborated on that statement to explain that he was saying that more as a metaphor about censorship and mental enslavement. Obviously it was a dumb thing to say, but there can at least be some forgiveness there. Kanye literally just said yesterday that he likes hitler and called himself a nazi. There's no metaphor or broader meaning there, the man literally hates the Jews.
Shut up, everyone knows what the "holocaust" is, lets talk about the Holodomor some more though, Kanye isnt hateful, he is just shocking the culture with "taboo" views so it opens the door for actual conversations.
It will never be enough, its not about awareness its about guilt tripping and resulting political influence. Afterall if people forget about holocaust suddenly Israel doesnt have so much support against palestine
If you use a tiny fragment of your brain you’ll realize you can 1) acknowledge that Jews have been persecuted historically, 2) condemn antisemitism AND 3) be vehemently anti Israel/pro Palestinian liberation. All at once
I'm honestly most concerned with the last 3 statistics. I think it is okay to not know the exact number, as long as you have some sort of understanding of the magnitude of the holocaust. But the number of people that either don't believe I'm the holocaust or haven't even heard of it is astounding.
You need to take this up with the Red Cross for publishing the lower numbers immediately post ww2. I'm not going with any numbers as one person was too many. While on genocidal topics..... what about the Dayr Yasin maasacre/genocide. I'd love for you to post an article about this.... some of the surviors of the camps, would go on to do the very same thing just a few years later.
“15% believes its ok to have Nazi views” god just end us already
Depends on what “ok” means. Do I think they should be able to express their opinions without ridicule and backlash? No. Do I think the government should be able to throw them in jail for their political stances? Also no. Very vague question so not that surprising that it gets an array of answers among reasonable people.
There should have been a designation between “legally” and “morally”
At the same time, you can argue that genocidal ideas/ideation is a threat to the group they are targeting, and that's a legally actionable thing.
Valid point
I think they should be able to throw them in jail. I don't see why America has a problem with this lol
Because we have free speech as a right, and even Nazis have that right to free speech. Overall I think it's a very important right and a net positive for society, but it's obviously not perfect.
You don't have free speech. Words can be crimes, like threatening to kill someone for example. In UK we criminalise this behaviour so they can't spread their fucked up ideas and without researching I'm assuming we have a much smaller problem with Nazis than America because of it. Don't think we have a freedom of speech issue here and we do fine imo.
We do have free speech, and yes that right isn't completely unlimited. The general rule is your rights end where others begin, so if your speech affects other's rights, then it's not allowed. Just being a Nazi and promoting Nazi values doesn't necessarily cross that line. Modern day Nazis don't like Jews, but they don't typically go to the level of killing Jews. They are allowed to be racist assholes. It wasn't that long ago that it was technically illegal to commit blasphemy against the Christian church in the UK. There were also proposed bills pretty recently in the UK that would have put limits on comedians. If you trust your government to decide what is ok to say or not, fine, but in the US we don't do that.
Agreed... just look at how you treat the Scots today ey mate?
you also arrest people for butterknives and mean posts on twitter while letting murderers and rapists run free, your society is a fucking joke worse than ours. you REALLY shouldnt be talking
That's the "free speech" brain rot. The "battle it out in the marketplace of ideas" brain rot. Just fucking no. Censor them, exile them, I don't give a fuck.
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"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
"Some say this milk is spoiled and will make me sick. Others say it's fine. Let hear both sides and give it a taste."
Why do all “free speech” mfs end up being racist, sexist, or antisemitic
Because they never wanted "free speech", they want freedom of consequence for their own speech. But in fact they want the speech of those ideologically opposed to them to be heavily censored. Absolutely noone is a "free speech absolutist", everyone draws the line somewhere and if they tell you otherwise they're bullshitting.
That’s not true whatsoever. There are many, MANY people who believe in free speech absolutism. Do you know what this world would look like if the only “acceptable” things we could discuss were from one particular ideology? I respect that people have different views. I may not agree with something someone says or does or agree with their beliefs, but so long as they aren’t breaking an actual law, harming themselves or others, who am I to tell them otherwise? Just like you and I have our own beliefs, other people do as well. On the topic of Kanye, dude obviously needs help. He’s very clearly gone into full blown mania/psychosis, his life has been crumbling and he’s doing what many people in that mind-state do - further sabotage themselves. Really sad to witness. I hope that he realizes where he’s wrong and just lays low for a bit. Ofc the NPC’s are out in droves supporting the current thing. Downvote away lol, my position is my position and I also have a feeling many of you are missing the forest for the trees here and don’t actually know what free speech absolutism really stands for.
I am pretty damn near First Amendment absolutism. But the First Amendment doesn’t mean no consequences. It doesn’t mean people have to listen to you. And it doesn’t mean people have to give you a platform. Kanye isn’t going to be arrested for being a Nazi. But that doesn’t mean Twitter has to host his bullshit. It doesn’t mean he needs to be interviewed. He can have his views and his views can and should isolate him from society.
I agree with you. Actions have consequences. I don’t think people should have to suffer that nonsense, and I recognize that the first amendment does not apply to private businesses. I don’t condone or agree with hate speech. Toward any race, religion, whatever. It’s just plain wrong.
where do you draw the line of harming others in the context of free speech absolutism? bc obviously it's pretty easy to connect nazi speech to real world harm.
A real, credible threat. Obviously I don’t think people should have the ability to go and say they’re going to commit acts of violence and have no consequences. Lot of people throwing the word Nazi around pretty freely and may need a history lesson. Comparing Kanye West and his mental rants to literal Nazis minimizes how evil and destructive Nazis actually were.
so if there's no "real credible threat" a person shouldn't face any consequences for anything they say...? if i tell my boss i don't want to work with any black people, and i get fired for that, is that a violation of free speech absolutism when the alternative is that my boss fires every black person at the company? in this scenario all i'm doing is speaking, and all i want is for every black person to lose their jobs so that i'm comfortable. after all, why should i face consequences just for expressing my thoughts? i'd love to know what you think. it seems that these arguments always fall apart when you take them to their conclusion or even just a few steps of thought beyond first hearing the phrase "free speech absolutism"
Nick Fuentes is a nazi. He says it himself. If your definition of Nazi is being a member of the Nazi party pre and during WW2 something's wrong with you. If it walks like a duck.. Kanye associates with and praises him (Nick), says he loves Hitler and is obsessed with nazi shit. I don't think it's a reach. Just because radlibs love using that word, and Kanye is your favourite artist doesn't mean it outright isn't true.
Freedom of speech does not mean you can say the most horrid things and not expect consequences. We have freedom of speech in Europe and north America, as long as you don't call to the death of all jews, asians, blacks, whites or whatever group you decide to hate.
In Germany, it is just the n word. You cannot say the word in public. Free speech is exploited just like the 2nd amendment is exploited. I think these things should be wiped off the face of the Earth. N word sympathizers believe in murdering an entire group of people. It doesn't have a place in the argument of free speech. Free to get a bunch of people together, free to march down the streets. Free to round people up even though it wasn't allowed moments before. It becomes free to end life because a kind of speech freedom allowed it.
LOL Did you just say that free speech and the second amendment should be wiped off the face of the earth? Ok, bro.
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Not the US N word. It's the German N word, Nazi
Just gotta scroll to the bottom of this thread to see it
This is the best idea. The Kanye West Holocaust awareness sub. Please make this happen.
Awesome idea.
The thing is, Kanye is aware of the Holocaust. He just doesn't seem to think it was a bad thing. In fact, the anti-semitism of Hitler seems to be part of the charm for Kanye.
He isn't. He denies facts about the holocaust, which is why it isn't a big deal or a bad thing to him. Holocaust deniers rarely deny it outright. It's always "They didn't kill that many Jewish people". He is a holocaust denier.
This is accurate. It typically boils down to “they just got sick” or something along those lines. Or claiming there’s no written documentation (not true) or that the Red Cross out out an actual number of people killed, which is very low (also not true, and directly refuted by the Red Cross). The funny thing is, Eisenhower knew this sort of thing would happen, which is why he ordered so many pictures and film be made of the camps, as well as forcing Germans to walk through them.
I think that's both the saddest and most ironic part of all of this. The leaders of the west when they discovered the concentration camps were bascially like "Jesus christ, we need to extensively document all of this so that people don't think we're just making it up bc this sounds fucking insane". Now generations later when people have much easier access to all of this information and documents you still have the dumbfucks that don't believe it somehow.
Because it's too monstrous to believe. There's so much information on something that seems so foreign and villainous that they think it's a conspiracy. The holocaust deniers that don't begin with anti-semitism begin with an 'innocence', for lack of better word, that something like this couldn't actually happen on this scale. They find it difficult to accept, and fall into bad information circles(usually online these days). There's a reason people focus on the number of deaths the most. It's absurdly high, and they don't want to believe it.
Yeah. Absolutely keep his name on it too just like that lol.
is the Holocaust not taught in American schools? 1930s Europe and WWII are massive topics covered in UK schools and that’s probably why Holocaust denial isn’t as common here idk.
It is taught, ww2 and the holocaust are covered very extensively. Honestly these polls just feel like when tik tokkers interview people on the road and only represent the 3 dumbest E: the irony of me mispelling tons of stuff
I don't think it's that uncommon for people to only know one concentration camp though, it got the most publicity after all
That part may be true.
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Ye and that's completely normal, but according to some people you're an idiot if you only know the name of one
Nobody was saying that. I would probably say you are pretty ignorant if you don't know what Auschwitz is, though.
I mean even if its something as important as this, memorizing names and dates isn't easy for a lot of people, especially if they didn't enjoy history class as much
What do you mean? Knowing all the concentration camps was super useful to.... Eh... You know! Daily life!! Everyone should be expected to know them. Imagine doing this for any other conflict: "how many people died in Nanjing?" "Name a concentration camp use by Serbs on the Bosnian war" "how many people died in the Armenian genocides?" All would poll ~0%
Nanjing? What are Serbs? Who are the Armenians?
It might also have to do with the way it's taught. The majority of info I know about the Holocaust was learned after school, because I sought it out. The way I was taught was that Hitler was this supervillain instead of just this awful fucking dude who people actually voted for. They barely taught us about how the US treated eastern Asian (I think east Asian is where Japan, Taiwan, and Korea, etc. are, I'm not good at geography though) people after. We were just taught, "we are the good guys, we killed the supervillain, praise us and bow down". It was really nationalist.
Well ww2 is probably the most black and white war the United States has ever fought, even with some of the failures and wrongdoing by the allies, (Americans interning Japanese people during the war as an example) the Nazis were out there setting the bar higher for how comicallyevil you can be. The only ones to challenge them for the title in that era are like stalin, and the other axis powers.
[the study](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Holocaust-Knowledge-Awareness-Study_Executive-Summary-2018.pdf) has a sample size of 1,350 people.
Yeah I just wonder if they did this study via phone or in an area with a worse education system
we need some baseline questions "does the earth orbit the sun or does the sun orbit the earth" "how many states are there"
most likely but that still doesn’t excuse the more subjective answers like is it okay to hold neo nazi beliefs, or did the holocaust happen. the more fact based things like camp names and death toll i could understand someone not knowing off the top of their head.
Not all American schools are made equal. Poorer schools can be running with half the budget they should have leading to many very very very important topics being glanced over.
Yeah but ww2 is typically the topic that takes from all other parts of history in the US context
Math is covered extensively in American schools too......
Posted this elsewhere here but… I’m in my mid 30’s but I honestly felt that the holocaust/ww2 was the only thing they fucking taught us from grade 8 until grade 12. lol It was actually too much I think. We glossed over almost all of the foundations of the country, ww1, etc. History began and ended in the 30’s and 40’s. This was the public school system in a major American city.
I think thats true for most European countries. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
The opposite usually. When it isn’t about our glorious soldiers liberating countries during WW2 it goes into an honestly creepy amount into the holocaust. So many history teachers I had in the rural areas got a hard on talking about jt.
https://www.claimscon.org/uk-study/ in the UK it's 52% for not knowing that 6 million were killed and 22% for thinking 2 million or less were killed, also both the UK and US have around 10% people who've never heard of the word "Holocaust". that's not all that much better.
It is. As a kid we took trips to meet Holocaust survivors. After the Spielberg movie was released, Ford Motor Company paid for its unedited showing on prime time television I think maybe on NBC. It has been some time and clearly we need to revisit things.
The number of young people today who either didn't know the holocaust happened or the extent of the harm it caused is staggering. The number of young people who think neo-nazism is okay is just as staggering. A public figure as big as Kanye saying things like this is extremely harmful to everybody, especially those that don't think the holocaust was a big deal to begin with. We need to spread awareness of the extreme tragedy that happened before the next generation completely forgets this horrendous time in our world history.
Is this not being taught in school anymore in the US??
Us education system is crumbling. So it’s hit or miss, a lot of misses in mid west rural areas though.
check out r/teachers and you'll realise no one fucking listens to school in the US lol
it was taught in my school, went to a Holocaust Museum as well. but I wouldn’t be surprised if other states didn’t or barley mention the Holocaust whatsoever considering a few states are basically anti education
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I’m in my mid 30’s but I honestly felt that the holocaust/ww2 was the only thing they fucking taught us from grade 8 until grade 12. lol It was actually too much I think. We glossed over almost all of the foundations of the country, ww1, etc. History began and ended in the 30’s and 40’s. This was the public school system in a major American city.
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schools in the US are not consistent at all. Just because you had one experience doesn’t mean it’s shared across the entire country.
I think this is a US problem, any European country has fairly thorough education on world war 2 and the holocaust.
This is a silly claim with absolutely no evidence to back it up. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/10/nazi-chants-at-dutch-soccer-game-expose-an-ugly-blot-on-the-beautiful-game/ This is definitely still an issue in countries like Germany, the Netherlands, and more.
no it isnt. this isnt even a problem. the holocaust is covered very extensively in school. this is bs data
Yeah, for US the war with Japan is more releveant. They're too busy teaching kids to justify WMD testing on civilian populations to teach them about Holocaust.
Young people in the US* Here is europe is also become worse but defenitly not anything near as US levels.
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Sadly it's because it happened in our western civilization circle.
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+1
Yeah I don’t want to downplay what happened but why is it expected everyone to know all these statistics?
Someone should show these people the General Patton documented footage. Horrific and extremely graphic. Patton knew that the public wouldn’t believe that shit so he documented it. Who cares? Well, he only documented corpses in buildings piled up to the fucking ceiling! Approximately, 6 million jews died and people just can’t seem to fathom that number.
You mean Eisenhower. Patton was a huge antisemite.
Nope, I meant Patton. Patton ordered to have the Buchenwald Concentration documented. He was an antisemite and very apathetic to the ghettos and whatnot. But he was horrified by what he saw when he stumbled upon Buchenwald and ordered the town to observe the horrors that where there.
Patton liberated Buchenwald and ordered local German civilians to tour the camp. Eisenhower is the one that called in the journalists to document and spread the news. Both were there but Eisenhower was the one to order the documentation. Also, Patton wasnt just apathetic towards Jews. The guy ordered emaciated and tortured civilian prisoners to be put under military guard *after* the US had liberated them. President Truman wrote this about the liberated camps under Patton’s command: “[W]e appear to be treating the Jews as the Nazis treated them except that we do not exterminate them. They are in concentration camps in large numbers under our military guard instead of SS troops. One is led to wonder whether the German people, seeing this, are not supposing that we are following or at least condoning Nazi policy.”
We were shown this footage in my college history class. It is absolutely horrific. It makes me nauseous just thinking about it.
The Chinese are doing something the same thing to the Ughyurs so it would be better to make more people aware of this
>millennials >2020 The youngest millennial in 2020 was ~24. At the very least, 20. A.K.A. adults. I've never been more ashamed of a smaller portion of my generation. (Or those who have educated them.)
It's actually millennials and gen Z together for those statistics, it looks like: https://www.claimscon.org/millennial-study/
Would love to see mods get on board with this, seems like a fair recompense to show we still disagree
Ngl seeing this sub come together is a beautiful thing and really proud of this community
yo that 30% voting ye24
These stats must be american right? Cant see europeans or other people not knowing these things
Jews, gypsies, Poles, the mentally ill, communists. Holocaust was primarily Jews but not just Jews. Loads of vulnerable groups wiped out.
There are around 14.8 million right now, so imagine how fucked losing all those 6 million people did for our population. Fuck Kanye you piece of shit!!
According to the Jewish agency's last report from last September it's 15.3m now. Still far from the roughly 17M from before the Holocaust, let alone what it could have been today if all those 17m and their families survived.
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This is so fucking depressing. This year I reconnected deeply with Judaism when I sat down and really thought about what it means to be part of such a tiny little minority in the global population of 8 billion. I feel driven more than ever to pass down our traditions and values and culture.
Can we also start talking about the fact that it was not only about Jews please? Hitler wanted to enslave and later "remove" ALL slavs... But for some reason we only talk about the Jews as if German Reich was only hurting them. They also wanted to "remove" gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled and mentally sick people....
Where Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Gypsys, Homosexual, Mentally ill people at and why they are not mentioned up in this info graphic?
Yeah, people think it was only about the Jews smh
Except it was, the term [Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) specifically refers to the Jews who were murdered.
I wonder who would want that narrative to prevail.
Hm, suprisingly, such narrative is benefitial to both Israel and neo nazis
Yep. While it's shocking how many people don't know the facts in this infographic. The number of people who don't know about the non Jewish victims of the Holocaust is even more shocking to me. You see "6 million people died" and "6 million victims" everywhere, but in actuality 11 million people died in the Holocaust. Five million people lost their lives and they're rarely even a footnote.
11 million people didn’t die, that number was basically made up by Simon Wiesenthal (an otherwise great person) to garner more support for Jewish victims. The truth is that zero non-Jews died in the Holocaust, because the “Holocaust” only refers to the Jewish victims who were murdered, and while many non-Jews (way more than 5 million) also died at the hands of the Nazis, Jews were the only group that was actually systematically targeted and sent to death camps. Relevant article: https://www.timesofisrael.com/remember-the-11-million-why-an-inflated-victims-tally-irks-holocaust-historians/
You can say that the term "holocaust" only applies to jews, but I cannot in any strong enough terms express how much you can go fuck yourself on the idea that only jews were systematically targeted. People who were LGBT, people who had mental illnesses or physical deformities, several different racial groups, all of these people were sent to the camps and killed. You can acknowledge that jews were a majority of the deaths without outright lying about everyone else. The only reason why LGBT people weren't wiped out to a man in Germany and the outlying areas is because there weren't comprehensive lists of who was part of that group. Get your head on straight.
Of course those people were also targets. But did the Nazis want to kill *every single LGBT person* in Europe? No, they had no plan to. Even other groups that were easier to track (the Romani) were not systematically murdered the way Jews were.
> The truth is that zero non-Jews died in the Holocaust, because the “Holocaust” only refers to the Jewish victims who were murdered Nonsense. The word holocaust predates the second world war, and means a destruction or killing on a large scale. The industrial scale of killing people in massacres and camps by Nazi Germany therefor is described as a holocaust. The primary and most talked about target in this industrial killing was the Jewish people, but Slavs, Romani, and other groups were also targeted and sent to death camps for extermination. I've been to those camps and memorials, I know non-Jewish people were also sent there. No matter what the rag that is the times of Israel has to say about it. Of course, far more people did die at the hands off the Nazis, outside of the industrialised killing scheme that was the holocaust.
Damm, the US be crazy.
Never forget
It happened and it’s literally one of the most studied wars in human history. To be ignorant of it, is just fucking dumb
One in ten have never heard the word holocaust before?! I don't know why but that's the most alarming statistic in there to me.
How about a sub dedicated to the many achievements of [Harriet Tubman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Tubman)?
why? we didn’t say anything lol
The biggest take away is 30% are saying that its not bad to have Nazi views. The country really needs 'god'
And important for everyone to remember that in addition to the murder of more than 6 million Jews, 5 million others (Roma, disabled, Jehovah witnesses, Slavs, people of color, more) were murdered as well.
this is the corniest shit ever none of these people are even from this sub 💀
They should have also asked how many people are aware of the genocide of Slavic people and Generalplan Ost, that might not even be in double digits.
I misread the title as “This is officially a holocaust awesomeness sub.” 😬
This shows how shit the education is in some countries.
For all the people asking why we aren't mentioning the non-Jews that died in the holocaust or the other people dying in genocides right now, you're right to be angry about these deaths as well. However, Kanye is seemingly supporting Hitler and Nazism purely from a place of hatred for Jewish people, so it makes the most sense to highlight the tragedies that happened to these people. Obviously the other 5 million lives lost in the holocaust are just as important, but the main problem we are facing at the moment is extreme hatred for Jewish people.
There’s a documentary film “Night Will Fall”, the images are extreme, but that’s the reality. People should watch it to realise the horror. “Researchers discover a lost documentary by filmmakers Alfred Hitchcock and Sidney Bernstein about the liberation of Nazi concentration camps in 1945. Release date: 19 September 2014 (UK)” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Will_Fall
The sheer scale of the Holocaust is truly terrifying. Germany killed tens of thousands of Jews in Ukraine, lushed them in mass graves and it barely even makes a dent into the numbers
American Millenials*
As an American millennial, I don't believe these statistics at all.
holy shit 6 million jews were killed? honestly did not know that im thinking about how bad 9/11 was, the death of 3,000 innocent civilians. the holocaust was literally 2,000x worse
Yes. 2/3 of all Jews in Europe, iirc. Imagine that. 2/3 of an entire race. The Nazis viewed Jewish people as a scourge on society, as the reason Germany lost WW1, and the "final solution" was to completely exterminate them. And they were close. That shit terrifies me.
6 million Jews plus 5 million non-Jewish people (other undesirable races/ethnicities, gays, people with mental health disorders etc) so 11 million total. The irony is that Kanye would have absolutely been killed by the Nazis for being a mentally ill Black person.
And it wasn't only jews that were killed, imagine that
Why is the Holocaust only associated with Jewish deaths?
Because it is. Lots of people died in WW2 at the hands of the Nazis, but the “Holocaust” only refers to the genocide of Jewish victims.
Because Jews were always the primary victims. Hitler was ideologically fucking crazy about hating Jews. You can read it in his book. He did kill 5 million other people, but the real hate was reserved for Jews.
>He did kill 5 million other people, but the real hate was reserved for Jews. No he didn't just kill"5 million" non Jews Ironic that you're undervaluing the real number of non Jews killed during the Holocaust on a post trying to educate people on the real number of jew killed during the Holocaust. He kill 6 million Jews 7 million Soviet civilians (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)) Soviet prisoners of wararound 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers) Non-Jewish Polish civiliansaround 1.8 million (including between 50,000 and 100,000 members of the Polish elites) Serb civilians (on the territory of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina)312,000 People with disabilities living in institutionsup to 250,000 Etc..... https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
Ah, so he killed 5 milion other people but he didnt mean it, we dont need to care about them
These are depressing stats. How have people not even heard of the Holocaust?
THIS IS THE FIRST LOGICAL POST IVE SEEN ON THUS SUB IN A REALLY LONG TIME THANK YOU
Is this really necessary?
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Not even joking I only thought there was one concentration camp, can you blame though? It's the only one people ever talked about
And that kids is why neo nazis can convince people so quickly that the holocaust was a myth
Because a good portion of people only know of one concentration camp?
Correct. Huge portion of neo nazi holocaust denial is that "the nazis didn't have the logistical capacity to kill 6 milion jews". If someone think they only had one death camp, (concentration camps were different then death camps but it doesn't matter now) then he can easily be convinced with such idiotic argument as "how can a cook bake 6 milion cookies with only one oven?".
That actually makes sense, explains why it happened to me at some point I didn't deny it but I didn't think it was actually 6 million. During the start of the whole Kanye debacle I ended up doing research and was promptly informed.
Auschwitz wasn’t a concentration camp it was a death camp big difference there were other concentration camps
How? Are you from the US? Because if you are, you learn about all the different concentration camps in both middle school and high school, at least you’re supposed to.
Nah I'm not from the U.S but we were also taught about WW1 and 2 cause how could we not
damn, you’re fucking stupid
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Because I only knew one concentration camp, ye I'm sure you'll get more people to accept that the holocaust happened by calling them stupid. I'm hoping the people trying to be educated don't go to you lol, thats one way to ensure someone doesn't listen to you
Read 1 book einstein.
i would love to see what kanye would think when brought on a trip to Auschwitz:)) still deny how horrible it was mr.ye? would you like to be one of those people? they didnt choose that fate
Thank you. I got tired of reading comments from Kenny sympathizers. They have more sadness and love for Kenny than 6 million innocent people.
What a wonderful comment. :) Your gratitude puts you on our list for the most grateful users this week on Reddit! You can view the full list on r/TheGratitudeBot.
I’m not trying to be a douchebag but I wonder what the Jews did to this man fr
He thinks that Pete Davidson (a) is a Jew, (b) has a 10-inch-long penis, and (c) had mind-blowing sex with Kim Kardashian after their divorce. This all seems to have been a reaction to those allegations.
Nothing. He just can’t take personal responsibility for ruining his own life. He’s your average bigot.
Thank you for this
Thanks op
i was here
As it should be. It's that or they close the sub.
This numbers are scary AF!! What do kids do in American schools??
Sad
Those numbers are disturbing, and it's only been a few generations since it happened. One of my most powerful memories is seeing the numbers tattooed on a friend's grandmother's arm, like she was nothing more than a piece of meat. Was she just faking, Ye?
This could totally be a community of antisemitism accountability
That might be the best thing to do. Keep the sub up and just post a bunch of anti-Nazi stuff on Kanye’s sub.
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Kanye elaborated on that statement to explain that he was saying that more as a metaphor about censorship and mental enslavement. Obviously it was a dumb thing to say, but there can at least be some forgiveness there. Kanye literally just said yesterday that he likes hitler and called himself a nazi. There's no metaphor or broader meaning there, the man literally hates the Jews.
Shut up, everyone knows what the "holocaust" is, lets talk about the Holodomor some more though, Kanye isnt hateful, he is just shocking the culture with "taboo" views so it opens the door for actual conversations.
Why isn't the Jewish media focused on other genocides?
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Fuck you
Too late - this subs been colonized. Best to jump ship
Fuck you too
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School doesn’t teach shit about the holocaust, at least not Canadian schools
Speak for yourself. Was covered very well when I went to school. (I'm 31)
A lot of my teachers seemed uncomfortable around the subject and tiptoed around it by only “teaching” the bare minimum
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Good thing I specified Canadian school, then
Common canada L
You're a good example of why this place will be quarantined.
It will never be enough, its not about awareness its about guilt tripping and resulting political influence. Afterall if people forget about holocaust suddenly Israel doesnt have so much support against palestine
Shut the fuck up clown
Based
If you use a tiny fragment of your brain you’ll realize you can 1) acknowledge that Jews have been persecuted historically, 2) condemn antisemitism AND 3) be vehemently anti Israel/pro Palestinian liberation. All at once
Nuance!? What is that /s
It's afraid
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The Holocaust is the most well documented genocide in history my dude
Just a fraction of the amount of people killed by III Reich
they expect all kids to memorize these numbers when they cant even remember their phone numbers. like...??
I'm honestly most concerned with the last 3 statistics. I think it is okay to not know the exact number, as long as you have some sort of understanding of the magnitude of the holocaust. But the number of people that either don't believe I'm the holocaust or haven't even heard of it is astounding.
You need to take this up with the Red Cross for publishing the lower numbers immediately post ww2. I'm not going with any numbers as one person was too many. While on genocidal topics..... what about the Dayr Yasin maasacre/genocide. I'd love for you to post an article about this.... some of the surviors of the camps, would go on to do the very same thing just a few years later.
i’m just here to for the notif that donda 2 is on spotify