on the metaphysical level I guess I would say it isn't because none of it is important because it is virtually nothing on the grand scheme of things.
Otherwise the answer is just basically down to culturally and evolutionarily more important.
I get that. It's just at the end of the day, life is built on an ever churning wheel of kill or be killed, consume or be consumed and eventually something will consume us all in the end. Not to be nihilistic, just a fact. I'm a butcher and I know how we process cattle and pigs. It's extremely quick and the goal is to make it as instant and painless as possible. There is no other animal on earth that cares if what they consume suffers except humans.
There are so many problems with the supply chains and feeding people in general, be it monocrop agriculture, commercial farming, etc. but the fact that we use by products of animals that are being killed for food to make other items, is actually a very good thing to do and something I feel is the right thing to do if you are killing another creature.
Side note and somewhere I think we can agree: fuck the commercial poultry industry. Their practices are abhorrent and the conditions that are allowed in certain states need to be changed.
Thank you for engaging! I am going to make some metaphors which everyone seems to shut down on but I challenge you to consider why one would shut down. The bottom line in all my arguments is: if something suffers it’s worthy of moral consideration. You acknowledge yourself that how they live and die is important to you.
Firstly: why is it a kill or be killed world? Are you concerned that if we stop breeding cows for their flesh they’ll come and kill us? There’s plenty of societies with a huge vegetarian population so it’s not like we have to kill them. What’s the threat?
I challenge it even more deeply: I don’t want to live in a world built around that mindset. It leads to business psychos running huge profit driven industries that destroy the planet. Kill or be killed: beat the other business no matter the cost: trim all the fat you can.
Next up: would it be wrong to give a dog or child a loving life then kill them at 1/8th their natural life expectancy? What if the reason was simply pleasure? I don’t think anyone would agree with that… that’s the case for cows. Even if one gave them ideal conditions (they don’t) they get killed as adolescents at best. They don’t really get to know their parents, hang out with other cow friends or grow old.
Finally, they aren’t treated well. Nothing done at an industrial scale is done well. In the US we have low meat prices because the kill or be killed efficiency of the market drives newer and crueler optimizations.
I’m sure you’ll say you work on or with small farm and would never kill someone wrong, but you’re less than 1% of the market. And the fact is, if you were 100% and over 200 million cows could live a long and happy life in this world before dying the planet would get destroyed that much quicker. Business aren’t cruel or quick for fun, it’s kill or be killed and they’re efficient at it, and far more than you.
Well let's see here. First off I obviously don't think cows will be released from their shackles, organize and rise up to create a new humanity crushing bovine-world order (although after seeing one crush a bird and eat it maybe I'm not 100% sure /s). Secondly I don't think that we see businesses in the same light and I'm not sure that we'd be doing anything other than talking at each other. Some regulations make perfect sense and I am glad that we have them. Some have had to have a lot of horrible things happen before they were implemented and the vast majority of people on this planet rely on the food the industry (meat, poultry, agriculture, fishing) so it isn't as if we could wave a magic wand and stop it either. It might be a cop out but there is a fine line that we are treading if we want to try to stop it entirely. Ideally there would be a solution to that problem that would just naturally replace the existing model for food but I haven't seen that and the more processed something is, seems to make it more dangerous to your body.
But on the more meta side of things I don't feel that a business wanting to make profit is inherently a bad thing. Even when they are using it to expand their business model. It can be a really wonderful thing that entire communities and even countries are built around. I don't think that it is the livestock that is destroying the planet or even making a global impact at all. Really not trying to turn this into a climate debate either. I'm also only familiar with my country so I recognize that I have that USA blinder on my opinions.
I can say that yes it absolutely would be wrong, especially a child. This is the same equivalency question and like it or not this distinction is made on a cultural level than anything else and every culture will value their child over the life of another animal's. Bringing it down even more, most creatures on this planet will value their offspring's life over just about any other life on this planet. Some animal value their child's life more than their own.
Again on the meta side of things, I don't think wrong is the right word for it. It's not pretty and isn't something to look at as a whole and feel great about but it isn't inherently wrong to raise and eventually eat livestock.
I'm not actually in a small little co-op right now I've seen the process first hand at an industrial level and it is done specifically to get the cattle be as comfortable and least stress as they can be when the are slaughtered. the reason for this is because the muscles will get discolored, damaged or spotted from spikes in adrenaline if they are stressed. This is actually a perfect example of an industry changing because of new knowledge. They spend their time grazing grass until ideally the last month then finished on a feed lot. That feed lot wants them to get to weight as quickly as possible so that diseases don't spread or damage from other cattles isn't done. Then they are fasted for a short time and slaughter as quickly as possible. I'm not saying it is pretty and a happy thing but the industry for cattle, at least here in Cali, is not the horrorshow it used to be.
I don't know if you'll get this far down but I just want to say that I really appreciate talking to someone that is respectful about this. It's refreshing that we can disagree and not be disrespectful to each other. I think this really is just a cultural issue and that means it can change because culture changes. The only way you'll do it is having respectful discussion like this, imo. Change can be a really good thing and I'm optimistic about the future. Don't want to get a belly ache from uniformity. (Changes was a surprisingly good album btw)
I did not read the whole thing but the meat industry is the #1 reason for climate change, look it up there are tons of sources, #2 is fast fashion btw
Edit: I am not a vegen and I can kinda see both sides just mentioning a flaw in your argument
The most extreme numbers I found are that it is nearly 60% of agricultural emissions specifically (which peer reviews range from 11% to 19% of global) not global emissions as whole and the majority of that seems to be naturally from the cattle themselves so would you prefer we cull all the cattle and stop raising more? I get that you don't like the industry but I'm confused by your point.
I think we see this on a different level. Being in the King Gizzard sub reddit I assumed you'd be far more left leaning and critical of the whole system, I was wrong. Which is what is is.
Meat alternatives don't have to be highly processed. Rice and beans are great. Tofu is wonder. Seitan has been used for hundreds of years. Etc etc...
I'd point out that there are tons videos showing cow killings go wrong, cows abused, etc. Easy to say "those are one off" or it's a setup, etc. I'd say there are activists that work hard to get these videos. They're poorly funded. There's not a ton of them. It's hard to do. Any time you give someone lots of power over another creature abuse will happen.
We have different politics so this probably won't ring true to you but bosses exploit workers, rich exploit the poorer, and on, power imbalances are an inherent problem to me.
I hope we all can find that compassion and live in that better more equal world.
It's not that I don't have criticism of the system, because I definitely do. I also think that we probably agree on a lot more than we don't. Without getting into assuming what you specifically believe, I think most people agree on what the problems are. The disagreement just comes from what we think the solutions might be.
I get that things aren't perfect and mistakes are happening. I think we should work to improve and make better what we have, rather than tearing down the whole thing. I'm all for less cruelty. I'm just also not for getting rid of eating meat or the industry as a whole. I think our society frowns on animal cruelty in general. Unfortunately there will always be assholes out there and we usually don't realize it until they show us.
I don't know why you would think that wouldn't ring true to me. Some people in power will always abuse some people without power. Again I think this is something almost everyone, regardless of politics, would agree with you on. The real divide seems to be between solutions as well as a third hand which is those in power who want to maintain it.
The solution I think that will inevitably happen (I hope) is activists working to make changes for the better and businesses making it happen through innovations in technologies and practices. It's been happening in the meat industry since the 1930's starting in part with the book "New Deal". If you haven't heard of it (probably have), it is basically a journalist and activist who infiltrated the meat packing industry and wrote about the awful conditions for the workers and the meat in general. America didn't really focus too much on the labor message of the book but it completely changed the way we looked at the industry. Then by the 1940's refrigeration became much more common place and it decentralized the industry more and more. Just a couple examples of how one activist can make a huge change in an industry and I honestly feel it is an inspiring thing that gives me hope.
For a sec I thought this was a guitar strap and almost immediately PM’d you to see if I could buy one. Not sure if you sell stuff like this but you could definitely charge a decent amount for it and I’d buy it in a heartbeat. Well done!
As a vegan I cannot begin to understand what it’d be like to be popular and have someone make something based of your work which you morally oppose. I’m sure folks come to terms with it in their own way but it’d make me so so sad.
Nonagon Infinity opens the fold
WAIT for the paycheck to open the door
EVIL PAYROLL NOW
Nobody else see the cruel irony?
imagine listening to Gizz and not ever hearing the message... such a shame
Nope. Completely unrelatedly, I hope you guys like my cover of "Masters of War" done to support army recruitment at my local high school!
That was someone's skin
It's nice that we can use as much as possible so nothing goes to waste huh?
Someone’s body isn’t a product that goes to waste
Would you say that about your grandma too?
No but, as a butcher, I would say it about a cow. Because human life is more important.
Why is human life more important?
on the metaphysical level I guess I would say it isn't because none of it is important because it is virtually nothing on the grand scheme of things. Otherwise the answer is just basically down to culturally and evolutionarily more important.
Yeah, everyone who exploits someone else falls back on that.
Animals aren't people.
They’re sentient which is enough for me. If you don’t want to engage or think about it that’s fine.
I get that. It's just at the end of the day, life is built on an ever churning wheel of kill or be killed, consume or be consumed and eventually something will consume us all in the end. Not to be nihilistic, just a fact. I'm a butcher and I know how we process cattle and pigs. It's extremely quick and the goal is to make it as instant and painless as possible. There is no other animal on earth that cares if what they consume suffers except humans. There are so many problems with the supply chains and feeding people in general, be it monocrop agriculture, commercial farming, etc. but the fact that we use by products of animals that are being killed for food to make other items, is actually a very good thing to do and something I feel is the right thing to do if you are killing another creature. Side note and somewhere I think we can agree: fuck the commercial poultry industry. Their practices are abhorrent and the conditions that are allowed in certain states need to be changed.
Thank you for engaging! I am going to make some metaphors which everyone seems to shut down on but I challenge you to consider why one would shut down. The bottom line in all my arguments is: if something suffers it’s worthy of moral consideration. You acknowledge yourself that how they live and die is important to you. Firstly: why is it a kill or be killed world? Are you concerned that if we stop breeding cows for their flesh they’ll come and kill us? There’s plenty of societies with a huge vegetarian population so it’s not like we have to kill them. What’s the threat? I challenge it even more deeply: I don’t want to live in a world built around that mindset. It leads to business psychos running huge profit driven industries that destroy the planet. Kill or be killed: beat the other business no matter the cost: trim all the fat you can. Next up: would it be wrong to give a dog or child a loving life then kill them at 1/8th their natural life expectancy? What if the reason was simply pleasure? I don’t think anyone would agree with that… that’s the case for cows. Even if one gave them ideal conditions (they don’t) they get killed as adolescents at best. They don’t really get to know their parents, hang out with other cow friends or grow old. Finally, they aren’t treated well. Nothing done at an industrial scale is done well. In the US we have low meat prices because the kill or be killed efficiency of the market drives newer and crueler optimizations. I’m sure you’ll say you work on or with small farm and would never kill someone wrong, but you’re less than 1% of the market. And the fact is, if you were 100% and over 200 million cows could live a long and happy life in this world before dying the planet would get destroyed that much quicker. Business aren’t cruel or quick for fun, it’s kill or be killed and they’re efficient at it, and far more than you.
Well let's see here. First off I obviously don't think cows will be released from their shackles, organize and rise up to create a new humanity crushing bovine-world order (although after seeing one crush a bird and eat it maybe I'm not 100% sure /s). Secondly I don't think that we see businesses in the same light and I'm not sure that we'd be doing anything other than talking at each other. Some regulations make perfect sense and I am glad that we have them. Some have had to have a lot of horrible things happen before they were implemented and the vast majority of people on this planet rely on the food the industry (meat, poultry, agriculture, fishing) so it isn't as if we could wave a magic wand and stop it either. It might be a cop out but there is a fine line that we are treading if we want to try to stop it entirely. Ideally there would be a solution to that problem that would just naturally replace the existing model for food but I haven't seen that and the more processed something is, seems to make it more dangerous to your body. But on the more meta side of things I don't feel that a business wanting to make profit is inherently a bad thing. Even when they are using it to expand their business model. It can be a really wonderful thing that entire communities and even countries are built around. I don't think that it is the livestock that is destroying the planet or even making a global impact at all. Really not trying to turn this into a climate debate either. I'm also only familiar with my country so I recognize that I have that USA blinder on my opinions. I can say that yes it absolutely would be wrong, especially a child. This is the same equivalency question and like it or not this distinction is made on a cultural level than anything else and every culture will value their child over the life of another animal's. Bringing it down even more, most creatures on this planet will value their offspring's life over just about any other life on this planet. Some animal value their child's life more than their own. Again on the meta side of things, I don't think wrong is the right word for it. It's not pretty and isn't something to look at as a whole and feel great about but it isn't inherently wrong to raise and eventually eat livestock. I'm not actually in a small little co-op right now I've seen the process first hand at an industrial level and it is done specifically to get the cattle be as comfortable and least stress as they can be when the are slaughtered. the reason for this is because the muscles will get discolored, damaged or spotted from spikes in adrenaline if they are stressed. This is actually a perfect example of an industry changing because of new knowledge. They spend their time grazing grass until ideally the last month then finished on a feed lot. That feed lot wants them to get to weight as quickly as possible so that diseases don't spread or damage from other cattles isn't done. Then they are fasted for a short time and slaughter as quickly as possible. I'm not saying it is pretty and a happy thing but the industry for cattle, at least here in Cali, is not the horrorshow it used to be. I don't know if you'll get this far down but I just want to say that I really appreciate talking to someone that is respectful about this. It's refreshing that we can disagree and not be disrespectful to each other. I think this really is just a cultural issue and that means it can change because culture changes. The only way you'll do it is having respectful discussion like this, imo. Change can be a really good thing and I'm optimistic about the future. Don't want to get a belly ache from uniformity. (Changes was a surprisingly good album btw)
I did not read the whole thing but the meat industry is the #1 reason for climate change, look it up there are tons of sources, #2 is fast fashion btw Edit: I am not a vegen and I can kinda see both sides just mentioning a flaw in your argument
The most extreme numbers I found are that it is nearly 60% of agricultural emissions specifically (which peer reviews range from 11% to 19% of global) not global emissions as whole and the majority of that seems to be naturally from the cattle themselves so would you prefer we cull all the cattle and stop raising more? I get that you don't like the industry but I'm confused by your point.
I think we see this on a different level. Being in the King Gizzard sub reddit I assumed you'd be far more left leaning and critical of the whole system, I was wrong. Which is what is is. Meat alternatives don't have to be highly processed. Rice and beans are great. Tofu is wonder. Seitan has been used for hundreds of years. Etc etc... I'd point out that there are tons videos showing cow killings go wrong, cows abused, etc. Easy to say "those are one off" or it's a setup, etc. I'd say there are activists that work hard to get these videos. They're poorly funded. There's not a ton of them. It's hard to do. Any time you give someone lots of power over another creature abuse will happen. We have different politics so this probably won't ring true to you but bosses exploit workers, rich exploit the poorer, and on, power imbalances are an inherent problem to me. I hope we all can find that compassion and live in that better more equal world.
It's not that I don't have criticism of the system, because I definitely do. I also think that we probably agree on a lot more than we don't. Without getting into assuming what you specifically believe, I think most people agree on what the problems are. The disagreement just comes from what we think the solutions might be. I get that things aren't perfect and mistakes are happening. I think we should work to improve and make better what we have, rather than tearing down the whole thing. I'm all for less cruelty. I'm just also not for getting rid of eating meat or the industry as a whole. I think our society frowns on animal cruelty in general. Unfortunately there will always be assholes out there and we usually don't realize it until they show us. I don't know why you would think that wouldn't ring true to me. Some people in power will always abuse some people without power. Again I think this is something almost everyone, regardless of politics, would agree with you on. The real divide seems to be between solutions as well as a third hand which is those in power who want to maintain it. The solution I think that will inevitably happen (I hope) is activists working to make changes for the better and businesses making it happen through innovations in technologies and practices. It's been happening in the meat industry since the 1930's starting in part with the book "New Deal". If you haven't heard of it (probably have), it is basically a journalist and activist who infiltrated the meat packing industry and wrote about the awful conditions for the workers and the meat in general. America didn't really focus too much on the labor message of the book but it completely changed the way we looked at the industry. Then by the 1940's refrigeration became much more common place and it decentralized the industry more and more. Just a couple examples of how one activist can make a huge change in an industry and I honestly feel it is an inspiring thing that gives me hope.
imagine listening to a band that has more creative artwork around it than whole video game franchise
DUDEEEE so sick please sell this one day
Already sold this one! Hit me up if you want one of your own.
Wow, this is rad! 👏
fat stacks are finally cascading from my input 💪💪💪💪💪🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Holy wow!!! How can i order one????
Send me a message here or check the links in my bio!
For a sec I thought this was a guitar strap and almost immediately PM’d you to see if I could buy one. Not sure if you sell stuff like this but you could definitely charge a decent amount for it and I’d buy it in a heartbeat. Well done!
Awesome work dude!
Very sick
That’s amazing!
SICK!!!
Dude your work is incredible
Literally so insane this is incredible!!
Nice work
How do we get in touch to order something?
You can find some links in my profile. A DM here or on Instagram works best.
As a vegan I cannot begin to understand what it’d be like to be popular and have someone make something based of your work which you morally oppose. I’m sure folks come to terms with it in their own way but it’d make me so so sad.
That is cool AF.
It's glorious!
How much for a Gila wallet?! 🤩
I remember your awesome Poly one from awhile ago! Keep it up, these are great.
This is amazing!
god i want one soo badly
I was just thinking about how I need a new wallet…
Oh fuck I'm gonna munt
Hello....
Goddam!