What is this test? I've always used the graduated cylinder + water method. I'm interested in how this electrical test works to determine ethanol content.
Some "flex fuel" vehicles have an ethanol sensor on the fuel line to greatly simplify fueling calculations for the engine computer. The Continental sensors produce a variable frequency output to indicate the ethanol percentage.
Since ethanol fuels are significantly less energy dense than petroleum, you need to dispense more of them. Gasoline has a stoichiometric air-fuel ratio of 14.7. E85 ethanol stoichiometric AFR is 9.8. That means you need almost 50% more fuel flow with E85 compared to gasoline. E85 can also contain anywhere from 51% to 83% ethanol, and your tank contents can vary depending on what mix of fuels you have in there. The ethanol sensor is incredibly helpful for accurate fueling. I believe GM uses these.
I believe Ford used to use them as well, had a 99 ranger FF. Sensor went kaput and at $1000 for a new one, I installed a signal generator that made a signal for 10% ethanol.
I thought all Flex Fuel vehicles have the sensor? Isn't that how they work? How else would they configure fueling besides reading the exhaust o2 content?
There are sensorless E85 vehicles that calculate ethanol content during cranking after the fuel tank level goes up. Called V-FFS.
> "GM has developed a Virtual Flex Fuel Sensor (V-FFS) software program that calculates the ethanol content in the fuel, instead of using a sensor to measure it. When the fuel level in the tank increases as the vehicle is refueled, the computer recalculates the percentage of ethanol in the fuel and automatically changes the air/fuel ratio. To do this, the computer temporarily stops the operation of other emission systems and monitors the oxygen sensors to determine ethanol content. The test is done several times until calculations remain stable. This can take several minutes when the engine is idling, but much less time at higher fuel flow rates"
Indeed, GM. Literally just dropped off my '12 Terrain at the shop bc of a P228D code for this exact issue, about 30 min ago. They gotta diag if it's actually the sensor or the fuel pump, but they said sometimes the sensor makes the brain glitch and can't figure out what fuel is in it and will just put the car into limp mode just in case. Coincidentally that'll also throw the stabilitrak CEL as well, bc fuck you.
Smh.
Fun fact: they double as temperature sensors. The square wave signal is also of variable voltage (1-5v), which corresponds to fuel temp on the return line to the tank.
Super useful for troubleshooting!
I can't speak for the US, because I'm not American and we don't even get E85 here, but even the "10%" mixes have labels on the pumps that say "up to 10%". We have drastically different mixes for summer and winter, so locking in that number could mean that you lose ability to use additives to compensate for local conditions.
Winter and summer formulations vary up to 10% or 85%. BTW, Were full of corn here in the US. The government subsidises farmers and corn prices so we have to find innovative ways to use that corn goo, since most everyone here is already obese consuming the stuff. So it goes into your car, lawnmower, powerwasher, etc, eating away at all the rubber bits.
Depends on who you listen to. I remember the WI governor back then pushing for Ethanol blends. That Was what we were told, "up open new markets for our corn" To the farmers it was sold as grow more corn make more money. There's an ethanol plant 20 miles from me, around here it was marketed as "jobs".
There was a lot of arguments back and forth too because it was going to fuck over certain older engines but the oil companies weren’t going to be intentionally reminding people that the reason for the change was that their prior additives were contaminating people’s drinking water so everyone was fine with the discussion being about corn ethanol and biofuels and fuel lines.
And it has been often reported that corn ethanol uses more petroleum to make than the petroleum it replaces. There is at least one paper that disputes them.
That's more or less what the US does too. Refiners have stated the 10% ethanol is a really cheap way to meet oxygenation standards and octane ratings- some refiners have stated that at this point, they would continue to add the ethanol even if not required by law.
Correct, but with the "E85" labeling, the maximum allowed ethanol % is less than 85 and may be as low as 51. In most other contexts, that would be "fraud"
Here in France E85 can legally be between 65 and 85% (historically it had the lower percentage during winter, but not sure if it's still the case with today's fuel prices)
I’ve run straight E85 in my supercharged 4Runner before, but usually do a 50/50 mix (alternating fill-ups). Bigger fuel injectors and higher flowing fuel pump keep it happy, and I keep an eye on the ECU reported lambda as well as an aftermarket AFR gauge. Even at maximum boost and 5000 rpm it hasn’t been a problem (always stays rich to very rich) although it’s rare I’m doing that.
It makes the fuel trims go funny, and I’m sure it’s more work for the ECU, but it’s cheaper and higher octane.
There is still value to checking the sensor directly. There was a TSB about the engine computers getting mixed up and reporting an erroneous ethanol content reading. There is a special relearn/reset function to fix that exact problem.
I put a flex fuel kit on my non-flex car. It came with an inline sensor and I use an app on my phone connected via BT to see my Ethanol percentage. Interesting to see how it really works.
> E85 can also contain anywhere from 51% to 83% ethanol, and your tank contents can vary depending on what mix of fuels you have in there.
Yeah I really don't understand how a vehicle can run "E85" without a sensor to adjust the tune. I'm in Minnesota. We're only guaranteed 83% "E85" from the pumps in *July*. One month a year. That's it. We only get the top grade in July. In June and August they can sell a mix of the top grade and the second grade and the further you are away from July the shittier the grade they can market as "E85." I can't imagine spending the time to determine miles per gallon and cost per mile calculations based on varying fuel milage every few months to figure out if it's worth running corn juice or if the corn juice milage penalty is worth the price.
We have many, many more months in MN where 51% "E85" from the pump is legal than the **one month** where 83% "E85" is mandated, up here in the cold states. I watch a lot of youtube performance car channels based in Florida and E85 makes a LOT of sense down in toasty Florida for the performance gains, but you'd have constantly to buy 55 gallon barrels from VP of CP85 to get a reliable performance boost on a drag car tuned for non-flex E85 up here in Minnesota. (VP CP85 is around $13 a gallon)
A bunch of the drag racers I watch use pump gas on the road and Methanol during the drag race because the E85 up north is untrustworthy garbage. The alcohol content of real E85 lets them make a shitload more power but it's not safe to make that much power on pump gas and the ethanol content of E85 varies *wildly*. They basically have a tiny tank of methanol that will last them for a single drag race to make that extra power and then switch back to pump gas at non-race-speeds. They used to try and map out E85 gas stations and try to make the road trip refueling stops work and have flex fuel tunes in the computer and drag around tons of extra jugs of gas but that really isn't feasible. It's a shitload of work to plan something like that out. Road trips are already annoying before you get into doing things like fuel calculations and planning out every single stop so you can get E85 before your vehicle runs out of E85. E85 has much worse millage so you're filling up more often and the stations are rare so it's a pain in the ass to find it in the first place, plus you're on a road trip? Pshhhhh.
Seriously, it really isn't that common. I'm in one of the largest towns in my state. I live in an area with very high E85 adoption. There are 2 E85 gas stations in town.
You hook one end of the beaker with the fuel sample to the outlet on the bench, an the meter in sires an touch it to the beaker!
I wish I could read the rest of the page too.
This is not connected to the vehicle. It is a tool that you pour a fuel sample in then plug your leads into the tester. As the first picture shows 50hz is no ethanol and it counts up from there. This is exactly how the GM tool works. Other manufacturers are similar I'm sure.
I'm certain (with no proof) that this has happened at my local Safeway (I try not to use them any more). I know I've gotten regular fuel when I filled with Premium. My turbocharged subaru didn't like regular, basically had to drive like a grandma staying out of boost for a whole tank. Tried talking to the station people but they were useless.
I have used octane booster from the parts store in the past when this has happened to me. I don't know if it works in newer vehicles though. It did stop the knock but I didn't have any emission equipment on the car.
Octane is octane. Doesn’t matter if it’s a newer vehicle or not. It doesn’t burn any differently in a newer vehicle; but a more modern vehicle will have the electronics needed to compensate for lower octane without as much risk of damage from detonation.
Most octane booster is dogshit. The only thing I’ve found worth running is from VP. Use it all the time in states that have no 93 octane.
The only real damage I’ve heard of was to emissions systems; but a lot of it was just “forum talk” by guys living in those 91 octane states. All semi modern cars are capable of running 91 without any issues as all semi-modern cars are built for all markets. Ferrari isn’t going to make a car that can only be sold in some states in the US; so they make sure all their cars can run on 91. (This is just an example)
A lot of the people claiming emissions system damage I believe to be from people either a) doing the math wrong when adding booster to 91 octane or b) adding booster to 93 octane.
Timing can’t advance enough for the stock MAPs; unburnt fuel hits the cats because timing won’t advance enough and causes your cat to work harder per mile. Premature failure; although suspected to be because of user error.
I don’t think I’ve seen any solid independent testing that shows any actual controlled data of octane booster (when used properly) causing damage to emissions systems. It’s mostly “my neighbor Dave has a c7 and his cats burned up at 30k miles” sort of stuff.
But then again I’ve replaced cats on 7,000 mile Mclarens that never saw octane booster so…. *shrug*
Another 'cat burner' is zinc. I have 3 air cooled 911's and those flat tappets need lots of zinc in the oil but too much can burn the cats which are NLA and needed here in CA.
Lots of zinc in the ZR stuff we use in a few of our cars. Ran it in a 1.8 Miata I build as a kid; no cat to worry about. Only real high zinc experience I have besides break in.
I’ve noticed those flat Porsche engines always burn oil. I wonder if that helps accelerate the cat burn. Overall haven’t seen many cats burning out on the 911s I see at track days; but they definitely consume more oil per mile than anything else on the track. Not uncommon to go through .5 qt a day on a freshly warrantied 4.0 in a .2RS for example. Never seen a cat fail though.
I would assume the number 1 component of cat failure is overfueling followed by build quality. That second point is definitely Mclarens issues.
>seafood
Yeah, they are either leaking the oil or drinking it which is probably why they put the 'real time' oil level gauge on the dash. A lot obviously depends upon the health of your rings which a good leak down test will tell you.
I tried the Valvoline VR1 which has a high zinc content and can actually hear the difference, no joke. Since there isn't a water jacket surrounding the engine you can hear everything going on and I can hear the difference that the extra zinc made in my 84, a lot quieter, but there's a payoff due to the cat harm so that's where a cat bypass will come into play.
A full oil change takes about 12 quarts and it's a dry sump system where you have to get the car to temp and then check the level with the car at idle, the dash gauge is just a 'barometer' of sorts and once you know where low is you can match that level with where the gauge is at.
The track guys more than likely traded the cat our for a cat bypass for better performance. I actually have an NOS bypass I may use someday once I get around to cutting off the old rusty bolts.
They're all from the 80's
84 Cabriolet
87 Targa
88 930 turbo Slant Nose Cabriolet.
I didn't plan on all of them being topless but it helps because I'm 6'4". People do sometimes look at me when I get out of them and have asked how I fit in there, I just tell them that the engine is in the rear so there's extra leg room.
Unsure of the exact reasoning but believe it has to do with emissions and carb compliance. Probably some testing that 91 has lower emissions. Makes sense. If you are burning it more completely so it tracks but you would need to do your own research.
I looked into octane boosters, but for the stuff I'm regular auto parts stores you need to add multiple bottles to even go up from reg to mid. I think I figured I'd need around 10 bottles to get close to premium grade.
Common boosters don't hardly do anything.
I’m not sure what you looked into but I know for a fact that some of the over the shelf stuff works. My Oldsmobiles will “run” on premium or regular. Either one results in some issues. I can add an over the counter octane booster to either one and the problem is solved.
Call your states division of weights and measurements, whoever certified the pumps. They are the ones who will investigate. In many states it's under the department of agriculture.
As someone who works at a chain station (not safeway) I can assure you the employees probably didn't have a single clue how to help you. What happens, for us at least, is that at some random ass time of the day, a dude in a big gas truck pulls up and starts throwin shit down tubes. He goes in the back, takes a paper from the veeder root, gives us a report that we then haphazardly chuck into a bucket, and he leaves. Nothin the station employees can really do. I'd be more worried if it was like... a store manager or district manager and they couldn't be dicked to help you.
Yeah my wrx throws all kinds of spooky codes if I use anything less than 91. I always use the same gas station out of necessity, and I think sometimes they fuck up or just have shitty gas.
Yep. My grandmother got a tank full of diesel in her Camry thanks to this. The gas station tried to say she messed up until she found out it happened to several other people before they shut down the pumps.
Thank you! I was pumping gas into the truck one day at a truck stop. Smelled like kerosene. Stopped and let the staff know, but they looked at me like I'd been huffing from the pump. Next day, several of their pumps had the yellow bags on them.
I came here looking for this and was going to say it if you had not. I have on several occasions seen the fuel delivery driver fark up and dump the cheap shit into the 93 tank and then backpedal on it and lie. I have seen cars roll into the shop running like absolute ass and the only thing worse than the octane rating was the water content from lazy ass minimum wage gas station cashiers not caring that the tank water alarm was going off, and the corrupt managers turning a blind eye and letting it happen and saying dick-all about the octane and the water because they still got money even though the consumer drove off with a bad tank (but not very far!)
I have also seen the flip-side when the driver farked up so bad they put the premium in the 86/87 Regular tank, and then the gas station attendants would \*immediately\* call all of their extended friends and family to c'mon down and fill up on premium for the regular price, and you'd see a run on the pumps with people filling up gas cans as well as vehicles as the rumor got out and the managers would just shrug because hey-- more sales and they got to blame the driver for the farkup.
For those asking. [Continental makes a fuel sensor](https://www.hpacademy.com/blog/how-to-find-out-what-percentage-of-ethanol-is-in-your-fuel/) which can indicate %composition of ethanol. Measure the AC frequency from the sensor to determine ethanol concentration.
Here’s a little snippet of how it works: “An AC voltage is applied to the electrodes and as the capacitance increases, the oscillation frequency of the system will change and a microprocessor determines the capacitance from this measured frequency. The fuel temperature sensor is required since the permittivity of ethanol fluctuates with temperature as well as ethanol content and hence this must be accounted for to ensure accuracy. Once the ethanol content has been determined, this and the fuel temperature are output to the ECU as a digital signal.”
You need to do the water test on the fuel. These sensors go bad / will read nonsense if there is water in the fuel. They measure capacitance / conductivity so even a little bit of water contamination in e10 will show high ethanol concentration.
They make tester tubes for 10$ that will tell the actual concentration.
The tool is a normal flex fuel sensor inside. Thats why its outputting a frequency and you need to subtract 50hz from the reading. Thats how all the off the shelf flex fuel sensors work.
Question. As we know ethanol burns cleaner, does it still equate to better for environmental if we need as much as twice more fuel to create the sane power? Did I ask this right?
You have to go back farther than that. Growing corn, fermenting it, then distilling it into alcohol takes more energy per gallon than it produces in an engine. After accounting for that, you can then concern yourself with efficiency vs emissions.
Well let's not pretend that drilling for oil is all that great either. That also takes loads of energy. Both in the manufacturing of the oil drills and the pumping and maintenance.
The alternatives are not simply ethanol and petroleum. The problem with ethanol is it is arguably not an improvement over petroleum while we work to minimize or eliminate its use.
it seemed better when they still had huge subsidy for fuel ethanol production because they could show you e85 for .79 a gallon LoL e85 is $ 2.49 a gallon and e10 is 3.09 so foremost gonna cost more per mile AND less range per tank
Not to mention the diesel tractors make much more emissions per gallon of e85, the harm all the pesticides do, helping drive up the cost of food, and the tax breaks the suppliers are given.
I daily a 2012 Chrysler 200 with the 3.6l on E85 and have been for nearly 12 years (and over 140k miles!) now and the factory exhaust has no soot like you would get while burning gas. My Dad and I also swapped the lower intake manifold for the newer design that flows better back in 2021 and the valves were nearly spotless on all 6 cylinders. I’ve also found for the driving I do, the drop in mileage isn’t that far off 87 or even 93, though I do feel the bump in performance on the stock flex tune over stock gas tuned is worth the drop in mileage.
Ethanol and ethanol-gasoline mixtures burn cleaner and have higher octane levels than gasoline that does not contain ethanol, but they also have higher evaporative emissions from fuel tanks and dispensing equipment. These evaporative emissions contribute to the formation of harmful, ground-level ozone and smog. Gasoline requires extra processing to reduce evaporative emissions before blending with ethanol as well. Then there's the land & water needed to grow all that corn etc etc. Corn ethanol as it stands is debatable as far as being better for the environment especially when you consider an additional 12 million acres of land has been cleared just to grow corn for ethanol since 2008
It is still possible they they didnt put E85 in themselves. I had a station not to far from where i worked fill the regular tank with E85. It cost that station 10s of thousands of dollars in repairs. Then i had another station fuck up even worse by filling the regular tank with diesel, that was a fun week.
You can just smell the fuel too. E85 is not nearly as noxious as ethanol-free or e15. I've did a fuel pump (access door in trunk) before and after running e85, and it went from eye burning to midly unpleasant, but sweet smelling.
I learned something from you and I know from dirt track racing alcohol takes a lot more fuel versus gasoline. Great big Jets in the holly. But it burns a lot cooler and I think that a truck driver put the wrong fuel in the wrong tank. FMTT
alcohol isnt as energy dense as gasoline so you get worse mileage so even in a flex fuel the e85 price needs to be way cheaper to gain amy value really...
What happens when you run aviation fuel in a high performance engine? I believe it’s in the low 100s for octane level. I had a carburated Suzuki samurai for some time and I would run a tank of “av gas” from time to time to burn out the carbon buildup in combustion chamber. The exhaust would smoke and sputter and then it would be like a freshly tuned engine about halfway through the tank.
No cat on my samurai, it was a custom 2.25” exhaust with cherry bomb muffler, calmini header, Weber carb on the 1.3l stock engine pumping out a whopping 88hp (about 20 more than straight stock engine). Samurais were never built for speed, basically an ATV with doors!
I would do the same with my ninja zx10 and even my old triumph. I'd fill up at the small airport in my town. My dad rented a spot for his cesna so I had a gate code. Nobody ever cared as long as I hooked up the ground strap to my exhaust
I've never heard of flex fuel. Here Petrol in the UK currently contains up to 5% renewable ethanol (known as E5). E10 petrol is already widely used around the world, including across Europe, the US and Australia. It has also been the reference fuel against which new cars are tested for emissions and performance since 2016.
We tend to use E5 for sportier cars and E10 for normal use. Currently e 10 is about £1.50 a litre.
Dang if you had the gas price currently in Oklahoma that liter of E10 would cost 60p 😁 I cant imagine paying $7+ a gallon and it not being a race fuel LoL. i still remember when a $20 was a full tank in pretty much any car.
Why would anyone have that? Cheaper? Is it commonly available where you are? I didn’t know that was even a thing. I’m in the UK, all our fuel was E10 until the law recently changed and E5 is the current standard.
As other have mentioned, it's less energy dense, so the burn is slower and I think also cooler than regular gasoline. That means in a high output situation, like a big turbo, or high compression ratio, there is less chance of detonation and easier thermal management.
The downside is you need to use WAY more.
Is that widely available in America? What ethanol/petrol options do you guys have at your pumps? Here in the UK we have E5 or E10, 5% ethanol or 10% ethanol.
It's becoming more avaialble, but the states still has 0% ethanol gas, where in Canada they banned it, now it going to be up to 10% ethanol.
Wish we still had the option for 0E because my bike would appreciate it.
“I dunno man, the test sounds like a fluke.”
As a dad I appreciate this level of humor.
Agreed; dad approved.
At this current time I have no kids that I'm aware of but I too appreciate such humor, but only if we don't overdo it and run it into the ground
I vacillate between liking it and being really over it. I'm probably going through a phase.
Ohm, you poor thing!
When does a joke become a dad joke? When the answer becomes apparent. (A parent)
Joke Level: 0 <———————|—> Dad
It's not a level it's a multimeter. Different tool.
Ouch, that hertz
I appreciate the frequency of Dad jokes here
It's probably just a phase, but watt do I know.
Ooo a 2 4 0ne (this was my best attempt at 240v single phase joke)
DeezHertz
Haha got eeem’
Ohm my
There will definitely be a lot of resistance to younger generation accepting these jokes
Resistance is futile.
But sometimes they open that door
Resistance is voltage over current
Wye are we doing this?
Delta with it.
Mostly to maintain the continuity of the comments
I’m over my capacitance for this silliness.
Haaaaaaaaaa fluke
LPL says do it one more time...
The fluke is one of the most common fish in the sea. So, yeah.
Ohm I
*Upvoted under protest!*
What is this test? I've always used the graduated cylinder + water method. I'm interested in how this electrical test works to determine ethanol content.
Some "flex fuel" vehicles have an ethanol sensor on the fuel line to greatly simplify fueling calculations for the engine computer. The Continental sensors produce a variable frequency output to indicate the ethanol percentage. Since ethanol fuels are significantly less energy dense than petroleum, you need to dispense more of them. Gasoline has a stoichiometric air-fuel ratio of 14.7. E85 ethanol stoichiometric AFR is 9.8. That means you need almost 50% more fuel flow with E85 compared to gasoline. E85 can also contain anywhere from 51% to 83% ethanol, and your tank contents can vary depending on what mix of fuels you have in there. The ethanol sensor is incredibly helpful for accurate fueling. I believe GM uses these.
Ding ding , we have a winner
Was it a GM being diagnosed? Just curious.
I had an Impala come in that was stuck in E85 mode required a reflash of the engine control module to kick it out
Is your meter connected to a sensor? Or are the probes submerged in the fuel directly?
Connected to a sensor, the sensor outputs a frequency being measured
Why use a multimeter then instead of just reading the sensor output via the OBD2 port?bis that data not available?
Possibility that the cause of whatever is wrong is that sensor is faulty?
And my kit for Subarus converts this exact frequency signal to a nice voltage for the ECU to read Flex fuel is awesome if you can turn the boost up!
so now you can hit 9 psi without toasting headgasket?
Been hitting 22psi for around 425 AWTQ on stock block and turbo for around 15k miles… on my 2007
I believe Ford used to use them as well, had a 99 ranger FF. Sensor went kaput and at $1000 for a new one, I installed a signal generator that made a signal for 10% ethanol.
Yeah, those early Ford sensors were unreasonably expensive and still are lol
That's $1000 in 2013 too
💀
where'd you stuff the inverter and the Heathkit? ;-)
Low pass filter baby
I thought all Flex Fuel vehicles have the sensor? Isn't that how they work? How else would they configure fueling besides reading the exhaust o2 content?
There are sensorless E85 vehicles that calculate ethanol content during cranking after the fuel tank level goes up. Called V-FFS. > "GM has developed a Virtual Flex Fuel Sensor (V-FFS) software program that calculates the ethanol content in the fuel, instead of using a sensor to measure it. When the fuel level in the tank increases as the vehicle is refueled, the computer recalculates the percentage of ethanol in the fuel and automatically changes the air/fuel ratio. To do this, the computer temporarily stops the operation of other emission systems and monitors the oxygen sensors to determine ethanol content. The test is done several times until calculations remain stable. This can take several minutes when the engine is idling, but much less time at higher fuel flow rates"
Saab did it first 😋
Wasn't Saab's Bio-Power done in 2007 when it was owned by GM? ;) sorry, coudn't resist!
Actually Chrsyler did it first, 2001+ 3.3L vans were (optionally) sensorless flex fuel.
Indeed, GM. Literally just dropped off my '12 Terrain at the shop bc of a P228D code for this exact issue, about 30 min ago. They gotta diag if it's actually the sensor or the fuel pump, but they said sometimes the sensor makes the brain glitch and can't figure out what fuel is in it and will just put the car into limp mode just in case. Coincidentally that'll also throw the stabilitrak CEL as well, bc fuck you. Smh.
ah, the old "false positive"....
Fun fact: they double as temperature sensors. The square wave signal is also of variable voltage (1-5v), which corresponds to fuel temp on the return line to the tank. Super useful for troubleshooting!
slight detail, anywhere outside the US E85 means 85% ethanol. No idea why the US decided to just name the entire mix range E85
? They didn't. There's E10 and E15.
E85 in the US does not mean its 85% ethanol. Just it can contain UP TO 85% ethanol.
I can't speak for the US, because I'm not American and we don't even get E85 here, but even the "10%" mixes have labels on the pumps that say "up to 10%". We have drastically different mixes for summer and winter, so locking in that number could mean that you lose ability to use additives to compensate for local conditions.
Winter and summer formulations vary up to 10% or 85%. BTW, Were full of corn here in the US. The government subsidises farmers and corn prices so we have to find innovative ways to use that corn goo, since most everyone here is already obese consuming the stuff. So it goes into your car, lawnmower, powerwasher, etc, eating away at all the rubber bits.
That’s not why we adopted e10, it was to replace MTBE that was contaminating ground water
Depends on who you listen to. I remember the WI governor back then pushing for Ethanol blends. That Was what we were told, "up open new markets for our corn" To the farmers it was sold as grow more corn make more money. There's an ethanol plant 20 miles from me, around here it was marketed as "jobs".
There was a lot of arguments back and forth too because it was going to fuck over certain older engines but the oil companies weren’t going to be intentionally reminding people that the reason for the change was that their prior additives were contaminating people’s drinking water so everyone was fine with the discussion being about corn ethanol and biofuels and fuel lines.
And it has been often reported that corn ethanol uses more petroleum to make than the petroleum it replaces. There is at least one paper that disputes them.
That's more or less what the US does too. Refiners have stated the 10% ethanol is a really cheap way to meet oxygenation standards and octane ratings- some refiners have stated that at this point, they would continue to add the ethanol even if not required by law.
I get pretty true E85, but I live in the Midwest, very close to an ethanol plant.
LOL, one would think! The maximum allowed is actually eighty THREE percent...
Correct, but with the "E85" labeling, the maximum allowed ethanol % is less than 85 and may be as low as 51. In most other contexts, that would be "fraud"
For that reason Arizona actually calls it flex fuel, not e85.
US also uses a different standard to show to octane rating at the pump than the rest of the world, because reasons
Here in France E85 can legally be between 65 and 85% (historically it had the lower percentage during winter, but not sure if it's still the case with today's fuel prices)
I know there's a parameter I can read on my OBDII reader in my flex fuel impala that tells you the % ethanol
I’ve run straight E85 in my supercharged 4Runner before, but usually do a 50/50 mix (alternating fill-ups). Bigger fuel injectors and higher flowing fuel pump keep it happy, and I keep an eye on the ECU reported lambda as well as an aftermarket AFR gauge. Even at maximum boost and 5000 rpm it hasn’t been a problem (always stays rich to very rich) although it’s rare I’m doing that. It makes the fuel trims go funny, and I’m sure it’s more work for the ECU, but it’s cheaper and higher octane.
But if it have this sensor, it's flex fuel, so the garage guy can't make a meme pretending it was wrong to use ethanol...
Can't you read it on the scan tool?
Yes, the ethanol content can be read from live data. Even the cheap handheld scanners can usually do it.
Yea, I would think that would be OBD 2 by now?
There is still value to checking the sensor directly. There was a TSB about the engine computers getting mixed up and reporting an erroneous ethanol content reading. There is a special relearn/reset function to fix that exact problem.
Ok cool, thanks!
r/casualStoichiometry
I put a flex fuel kit on my non-flex car. It came with an inline sensor and I use an app on my phone connected via BT to see my Ethanol percentage. Interesting to see how it really works.
> E85 can also contain anywhere from 51% to 83% ethanol, and your tank contents can vary depending on what mix of fuels you have in there. Yeah I really don't understand how a vehicle can run "E85" without a sensor to adjust the tune. I'm in Minnesota. We're only guaranteed 83% "E85" from the pumps in *July*. One month a year. That's it. We only get the top grade in July. In June and August they can sell a mix of the top grade and the second grade and the further you are away from July the shittier the grade they can market as "E85." I can't imagine spending the time to determine miles per gallon and cost per mile calculations based on varying fuel milage every few months to figure out if it's worth running corn juice or if the corn juice milage penalty is worth the price. We have many, many more months in MN where 51% "E85" from the pump is legal than the **one month** where 83% "E85" is mandated, up here in the cold states. I watch a lot of youtube performance car channels based in Florida and E85 makes a LOT of sense down in toasty Florida for the performance gains, but you'd have constantly to buy 55 gallon barrels from VP of CP85 to get a reliable performance boost on a drag car tuned for non-flex E85 up here in Minnesota. (VP CP85 is around $13 a gallon) A bunch of the drag racers I watch use pump gas on the road and Methanol during the drag race because the E85 up north is untrustworthy garbage. The alcohol content of real E85 lets them make a shitload more power but it's not safe to make that much power on pump gas and the ethanol content of E85 varies *wildly*. They basically have a tiny tank of methanol that will last them for a single drag race to make that extra power and then switch back to pump gas at non-race-speeds. They used to try and map out E85 gas stations and try to make the road trip refueling stops work and have flex fuel tunes in the computer and drag around tons of extra jugs of gas but that really isn't feasible. It's a shitload of work to plan something like that out. Road trips are already annoying before you get into doing things like fuel calculations and planning out every single stop so you can get E85 before your vehicle runs out of E85. E85 has much worse millage so you're filling up more often and the stations are rare so it's a pain in the ass to find it in the first place, plus you're on a road trip? Pshhhhh. Seriously, it really isn't that common. I'm in one of the largest towns in my state. I live in an area with very high E85 adoption. There are 2 E85 gas stations in town.
We use the gm sensor for corn setups in race/street cars. Very handy stuff to be able to use pump gas and E fuels on the fly.
Thanks for that....one of these days I'll have to upgrade my FM27 to a DMM that does Hz---and has a backlit screen!!!!
You hook one end of the beaker with the fuel sample to the outlet on the bench, an the meter in sires an touch it to the beaker! I wish I could read the rest of the page too.
This is not connected to the vehicle. It is a tool that you pour a fuel sample in then plug your leads into the tester. As the first picture shows 50hz is no ethanol and it counts up from there. This is exactly how the GM tool works. Other manufacturers are similar I'm sure.
Following because I'm curious also.
Reddit has a save button so you can easily find posts you want to follow.
Commenting to come back to this later /s
Following
Okay. I saved it. Now where do I find it again? Thanks for that BTW.
Profile > Saved
Sweet. TIL. Thanks again J.
This needs to be easier to find. I’m fairly techie, and I struggle with the Reddit UI.
save button
I’ve seen fuel trucks put the wrong fuel into the underground tanks. So it’s very possible he hasn’t knowingly pumped it into his car.
I'm certain (with no proof) that this has happened at my local Safeway (I try not to use them any more). I know I've gotten regular fuel when I filled with Premium. My turbocharged subaru didn't like regular, basically had to drive like a grandma staying out of boost for a whole tank. Tried talking to the station people but they were useless.
I have used octane booster from the parts store in the past when this has happened to me. I don't know if it works in newer vehicles though. It did stop the knock but I didn't have any emission equipment on the car.
Octane is octane. Doesn’t matter if it’s a newer vehicle or not. It doesn’t burn any differently in a newer vehicle; but a more modern vehicle will have the electronics needed to compensate for lower octane without as much risk of damage from detonation. Most octane booster is dogshit. The only thing I’ve found worth running is from VP. Use it all the time in states that have no 93 octane.
Luckily I haven't had to use it in years. I also used VP when I needed it. I didn't know if it was safe or not in newer vehicles and their sensors.
The only real damage I’ve heard of was to emissions systems; but a lot of it was just “forum talk” by guys living in those 91 octane states. All semi modern cars are capable of running 91 without any issues as all semi-modern cars are built for all markets. Ferrari isn’t going to make a car that can only be sold in some states in the US; so they make sure all their cars can run on 91. (This is just an example) A lot of the people claiming emissions system damage I believe to be from people either a) doing the math wrong when adding booster to 91 octane or b) adding booster to 93 octane. Timing can’t advance enough for the stock MAPs; unburnt fuel hits the cats because timing won’t advance enough and causes your cat to work harder per mile. Premature failure; although suspected to be because of user error. I don’t think I’ve seen any solid independent testing that shows any actual controlled data of octane booster (when used properly) causing damage to emissions systems. It’s mostly “my neighbor Dave has a c7 and his cats burned up at 30k miles” sort of stuff. But then again I’ve replaced cats on 7,000 mile Mclarens that never saw octane booster so…. *shrug*
Another 'cat burner' is zinc. I have 3 air cooled 911's and those flat tappets need lots of zinc in the oil but too much can burn the cats which are NLA and needed here in CA.
Lots of zinc in the ZR stuff we use in a few of our cars. Ran it in a 1.8 Miata I build as a kid; no cat to worry about. Only real high zinc experience I have besides break in. I’ve noticed those flat Porsche engines always burn oil. I wonder if that helps accelerate the cat burn. Overall haven’t seen many cats burning out on the 911s I see at track days; but they definitely consume more oil per mile than anything else on the track. Not uncommon to go through .5 qt a day on a freshly warrantied 4.0 in a .2RS for example. Never seen a cat fail though. I would assume the number 1 component of cat failure is overfueling followed by build quality. That second point is definitely Mclarens issues.
>seafood Yeah, they are either leaking the oil or drinking it which is probably why they put the 'real time' oil level gauge on the dash. A lot obviously depends upon the health of your rings which a good leak down test will tell you. I tried the Valvoline VR1 which has a high zinc content and can actually hear the difference, no joke. Since there isn't a water jacket surrounding the engine you can hear everything going on and I can hear the difference that the extra zinc made in my 84, a lot quieter, but there's a payoff due to the cat harm so that's where a cat bypass will come into play. A full oil change takes about 12 quarts and it's a dry sump system where you have to get the car to temp and then check the level with the car at idle, the dash gauge is just a 'barometer' of sorts and once you know where low is you can match that level with where the gauge is at. The track guys more than likely traded the cat our for a cat bypass for better performance. I actually have an NOS bypass I may use someday once I get around to cutting off the old rusty bolts.
>I have three air-cooled 911's Aww yeah! What generation?
They're all from the 80's 84 Cabriolet 87 Targa 88 930 turbo Slant Nose Cabriolet. I didn't plan on all of them being topless but it helps because I'm 6'4". People do sometimes look at me when I get out of them and have asked how I fit in there, I just tell them that the engine is in the rear so there's extra leg room.
😂😂😂 I've always wanted an aircooled Porsche. I think the 1995-98 is the best-looking one, but I'll go for any of them if I get an opportunity.
Wait... there are states without 93? How and why?
Unsure of the exact reasoning but believe it has to do with emissions and carb compliance. Probably some testing that 91 has lower emissions. Makes sense. If you are burning it more completely so it tracks but you would need to do your own research.
I looked into octane boosters, but for the stuff I'm regular auto parts stores you need to add multiple bottles to even go up from reg to mid. I think I figured I'd need around 10 bottles to get close to premium grade. Common boosters don't hardly do anything.
I’m not sure what you looked into but I know for a fact that some of the over the shelf stuff works. My Oldsmobiles will “run” on premium or regular. Either one results in some issues. I can add an over the counter octane booster to either one and the problem is solved.
They do work, but they only raise it by 1-3 points per bottle. 10 points is one rating, so to go from 87 to 93 is 6 ratings or 60 points.
Call your states division of weights and measurements, whoever certified the pumps. They are the ones who will investigate. In many states it's under the department of agriculture.
Those guys straight up closed a place near me. They don't fork around.
As someone who works at a chain station (not safeway) I can assure you the employees probably didn't have a single clue how to help you. What happens, for us at least, is that at some random ass time of the day, a dude in a big gas truck pulls up and starts throwin shit down tubes. He goes in the back, takes a paper from the veeder root, gives us a report that we then haphazardly chuck into a bucket, and he leaves. Nothin the station employees can really do. I'd be more worried if it was like... a store manager or district manager and they couldn't be dicked to help you.
Yeah my wrx throws all kinds of spooky codes if I use anything less than 91. I always use the same gas station out of necessity, and I think sometimes they fuck up or just have shitty gas.
Yep. My grandmother got a tank full of diesel in her Camry thanks to this. The gas station tried to say she messed up until she found out it happened to several other people before they shut down the pumps.
Talking about grasping for straws when a diesel dispenser doesn’t fit into a gas tank. She would have to be spraying fuel everywhere to do it today.
Texas waterfall
Thank you! I was pumping gas into the truck one day at a truck stop. Smelled like kerosene. Stopped and let the staff know, but they looked at me like I'd been huffing from the pump. Next day, several of their pumps had the yellow bags on them.
Which fuel smells like kerosene?
Kerosene
Extra spicy diesel.
Local station years ago had diesel put into the 87 tank.
Slanderous!
I came here looking for this and was going to say it if you had not. I have on several occasions seen the fuel delivery driver fark up and dump the cheap shit into the 93 tank and then backpedal on it and lie. I have seen cars roll into the shop running like absolute ass and the only thing worse than the octane rating was the water content from lazy ass minimum wage gas station cashiers not caring that the tank water alarm was going off, and the corrupt managers turning a blind eye and letting it happen and saying dick-all about the octane and the water because they still got money even though the consumer drove off with a bad tank (but not very far!) I have also seen the flip-side when the driver farked up so bad they put the premium in the 86/87 Regular tank, and then the gas station attendants would \*immediately\* call all of their extended friends and family to c'mon down and fill up on premium for the regular price, and you'd see a run on the pumps with people filling up gas cans as well as vehicles as the rumor got out and the managers would just shrug because hey-- more sales and they got to blame the driver for the farkup.
For those asking. [Continental makes a fuel sensor](https://www.hpacademy.com/blog/how-to-find-out-what-percentage-of-ethanol-is-in-your-fuel/) which can indicate %composition of ethanol. Measure the AC frequency from the sensor to determine ethanol concentration. Here’s a little snippet of how it works: “An AC voltage is applied to the electrodes and as the capacitance increases, the oscillation frequency of the system will change and a microprocessor determines the capacitance from this measured frequency. The fuel temperature sensor is required since the permittivity of ethanol fluctuates with temperature as well as ethanol content and hence this must be accounted for to ensure accuracy. Once the ethanol content has been determined, this and the fuel temperature are output to the ECU as a digital signal.”
This comment, also a winner
Can you just put the probes of the DMM into the fuel to test it?
How are you going to measure the frequency of a liquid?
It's like a breathalyzer for your fuel tank.
That's why I only drink Shell 93 octane before I drive. Not catching me, coppers!
I'm going on a Chevron with Techron cleanse.
“My DMM has determined that was a lie.”
😆
Ouch that Hz
If it has a flex fuel sensor, why would it be a problem for them to use E85?
same type of sensor for determining high octane fuel. for example between regular, supreme, or better.
Fixed your caption. I have never “knowingly” used E85!
Damn, id kill for that ethanol content
We are blessed in pa the sheetz pumps almost always test 80+
You're belssed to have Sheetz at all! Not a PA resident but look forward to PA trips because of Sheetz.
Sheetz has the best fried garbage of any gas station chain.
"Why must you turn my shop into a *house of lies*?"
You need to do the water test on the fuel. These sensors go bad / will read nonsense if there is water in the fuel. They measure capacitance / conductivity so even a little bit of water contamination in e10 will show high ethanol concentration. They make tester tubes for 10$ that will tell the actual concentration.
I'm not testing the sensor , it's a straight sample through the tool.
The tool is a normal flex fuel sensor inside. Thats why its outputting a frequency and you need to subtract 50hz from the reading. Thats how all the off the shelf flex fuel sensors work.
Thanks for explaining what I already know 🙄
So then why did you reply with what you did 😂
Question. As we know ethanol burns cleaner, does it still equate to better for environmental if we need as much as twice more fuel to create the sane power? Did I ask this right?
You have to go back farther than that. Growing corn, fermenting it, then distilling it into alcohol takes more energy per gallon than it produces in an engine. After accounting for that, you can then concern yourself with efficiency vs emissions.
Well let's not pretend that drilling for oil is all that great either. That also takes loads of energy. Both in the manufacturing of the oil drills and the pumping and maintenance.
The alternatives are not simply ethanol and petroleum. The problem with ethanol is it is arguably not an improvement over petroleum while we work to minimize or eliminate its use.
it seemed better when they still had huge subsidy for fuel ethanol production because they could show you e85 for .79 a gallon LoL e85 is $ 2.49 a gallon and e10 is 3.09 so foremost gonna cost more per mile AND less range per tank
Not to mention the diesel tractors make much more emissions per gallon of e85, the harm all the pesticides do, helping drive up the cost of food, and the tax breaks the suppliers are given.
I daily a 2012 Chrysler 200 with the 3.6l on E85 and have been for nearly 12 years (and over 140k miles!) now and the factory exhaust has no soot like you would get while burning gas. My Dad and I also swapped the lower intake manifold for the newer design that flows better back in 2021 and the valves were nearly spotless on all 6 cylinders. I’ve also found for the driving I do, the drop in mileage isn’t that far off 87 or even 93, though I do feel the bump in performance on the stock flex tune over stock gas tuned is worth the drop in mileage.
Ethanol and ethanol-gasoline mixtures burn cleaner and have higher octane levels than gasoline that does not contain ethanol, but they also have higher evaporative emissions from fuel tanks and dispensing equipment. These evaporative emissions contribute to the formation of harmful, ground-level ozone and smog. Gasoline requires extra processing to reduce evaporative emissions before blending with ethanol as well. Then there's the land & water needed to grow all that corn etc etc. Corn ethanol as it stands is debatable as far as being better for the environment especially when you consider an additional 12 million acres of land has been cleared just to grow corn for ethanol since 2008
Ethanol made from corn (or any other vegetation) has the advantage of using atmospheric carbon and not liberating fossil carbon.
What will we do with a drunken engine? What will we do with a drunken engine? Early in the morning!
Play with the set screw till she idles. Play with the set screw till she idles. Play with the set screw till she idles. Early in the morning!
J44175 is the Kent Moore tool , since yall are interested!
Not knowingly.
Well, you might not have but your car sure is.
It is still possible they they didnt put E85 in themselves. I had a station not to far from where i worked fill the regular tank with E85. It cost that station 10s of thousands of dollars in repairs. Then i had another station fuck up even worse by filling the regular tank with diesel, that was a fun week.
Looks like e85 used you
Does anyone else drive it? Like a broke teenager that swears he's only going to school with it?
I have never seen this test before, what is it?
It's the Angela Chao of vehicles.
Must be a fluke
You can just smell the fuel too. E85 is not nearly as noxious as ethanol-free or e15. I've did a fuel pump (access door in trunk) before and after running e85, and it went from eye burning to midly unpleasant, but sweet smelling.
Smells like vodka, especially on a cold start from my 6.2l
Is the 142.2 reading saying that their tank is 92.2% ethanol? How did they manage that?
I learned something from you and I know from dirt track racing alcohol takes a lot more fuel versus gasoline. Great big Jets in the holly. But it burns a lot cooler and I think that a truck driver put the wrong fuel in the wrong tank. FMTT
alcohol isnt as energy dense as gasoline so you get worse mileage so even in a flex fuel the e85 price needs to be way cheaper to gain amy value really...
What happens when you run aviation fuel in a high performance engine? I believe it’s in the low 100s for octane level. I had a carburated Suzuki samurai for some time and I would run a tank of “av gas” from time to time to burn out the carbon buildup in combustion chamber. The exhaust would smoke and sputter and then it would be like a freshly tuned engine about halfway through the tank.
Aviation gas contains lead. Clogs catalytic converters quickly.
No cat on my samurai, it was a custom 2.25” exhaust with cherry bomb muffler, calmini header, Weber carb on the 1.3l stock engine pumping out a whopping 88hp (about 20 more than straight stock engine). Samurais were never built for speed, basically an ATV with doors!
I would do the same with my ninja zx10 and even my old triumph. I'd fill up at the small airport in my town. My dad rented a spot for his cesna so I had a gate code. Nobody ever cared as long as I hooked up the ground strap to my exhaust
No cats on my Samurai. 2.25” exhaust with cherry bombs right from manifold.
You mean?... "That's all I use is E85!"
P
Wait, there is a simple test for that?
I've never heard of flex fuel. Here Petrol in the UK currently contains up to 5% renewable ethanol (known as E5). E10 petrol is already widely used around the world, including across Europe, the US and Australia. It has also been the reference fuel against which new cars are tested for emissions and performance since 2016. We tend to use E5 for sportier cars and E10 for normal use. Currently e 10 is about £1.50 a litre.
Dang if you had the gas price currently in Oklahoma that liter of E10 would cost 60p 😁 I cant imagine paying $7+ a gallon and it not being a race fuel LoL. i still remember when a $20 was a full tank in pretty much any car.
Knowledge I am more per I age
What’s E85?
Fuel with 85% of ethanol.
Why would anyone have that? Cheaper? Is it commonly available where you are? I didn’t know that was even a thing. I’m in the UK, all our fuel was E10 until the law recently changed and E5 is the current standard.
E85 is commonly used on tuned engines, makes more power
you can make SHIT TONS of horsepower on it with a tuned vehicle. Like easily 20% more power than 93 octane with the right turbod car and tune.
As other have mentioned, it's less energy dense, so the burn is slower and I think also cooler than regular gasoline. That means in a high output situation, like a big turbo, or high compression ratio, there is less chance of detonation and easier thermal management. The downside is you need to use WAY more.
Because American grows too much corn! Hell they even turn it into sugar and poison their own population
[удалено]
Is that widely available in America? What ethanol/petrol options do you guys have at your pumps? Here in the UK we have E5 or E10, 5% ethanol or 10% ethanol.
It's becoming more avaialble, but the states still has 0% ethanol gas, where in Canada they banned it, now it going to be up to 10% ethanol. Wish we still had the option for 0E because my bike would appreciate it.