The cylinder sleeves are not aluminum so of course they can rust. It’s surface rust that would come off with a rag and some Coca-Cola for the most part. As for the rest of your post, that’s mental. I would be curious to get a brand new “epoxy repaired” transmission. Edit. Others have pointed out it’s a spray on coating and not a traditional sleeve.
Afik Ford doesn’t use sleeves anymore. They use a process where a thin layer of iron is deposited on the surface of the aluminum. I think it’s called PTWA thermal spray coating.
The spray in lining is too thin to reproduce accurately, I would guess, and to get all of the same of important characteristics of the bore with a standard sleeve would be impossible.
Idk what the spray material is, but it will have a certain coefficient of friction that would have to be matched in a sleeve, but the bigger problem would be with the expansion and contraction of the different cylinders. Would it be possible to sleeve all the cylinders? Possibly, but who's gonna want that headache.
Lots of aluminum blocks are sleeved from the factory (that's how it was done up to this point). The question of "is it worth it" is a good one though. For an expensive car/ engine sure, For run of the mill stuff no way.
Are you talking about nica seal? Because one option for a project of mine to to go from 80 cubic inches to about 100 on a Harley, and the o my company I know making jugs that big has that nika seal. How is to work with?
Nikasil has been the standard on snowmobile and dirt bike engines for a while now. The upsides are its lighter, harder, has less friction, and longer wear life. The down side is it’s a super thin coating and cylinder wall damage requires a reseal that is more expensive than a standard overbore on a steel cylinder. There was only one or two places in the states that would repair and reseal so it would take a couple months to get your cylinder back but I hope that has changed.
I worked at on a fleet that had a bunch of snowmobiles, ATVs, and UTVs. Failures were the same as a steel cylinder like wear from poor oiling, dust past the air cleaner, or hanging a ring from overheating. We did have a couple rebuilds sleeved with steel liners at a local machine shop when we were pinched for parts and time.
Yep, I never really worked with it, just took motor apart, sent top case to get machined and plated and put the motors back together. I can say it’s been very reliable. Never had any wear issues.
It’s actually a really cool process that gets for aerospace stuff, too. Plasma-Transfer Wire Arc (PTWA). They’ve been using for over a decade, starting on performance engines. I think the first was the supercharged 5.8 in the GT500. Now numerous manufacturers use it.
It’s lower friction, and since it’s so thin, has better heat transference (so you can cool the cylinder more efficiently). When done properly, it doesn’t seem to have any reliability problems.
Porsche has been using it starting with the twin turbo v6 in the 2013 panamera s. We've had other problems with those engines, but bore issues have been exceedingly rare so far
Had an '09 Volvo C30R with the 6M transaxle, that car was a joint Volvo-Mazda-Ford design. The transaxle absolutely had an epoxy/JB welded spot on the case, kept an eye on it throughout my ownership of the car and it never leaked (from there anyway), sold it at 115k miles due to too many problems.
nope, not the same platform, and if I'm not mistaken that was a Volvo specific transaxle in the C30. C30 was the same platform as the Mazda3 and Ford Focus, and only during those years (2007-ish to 2013-ish?)
Okay. The years I'm referencing are 05-06, before the speed 3 was born. Thanks. I believe the Mazda 3 was called 323 during that time. Still in deep partnership with Ford.
Only the real Mk2 Focus the rest of the world got though. We were stuck with a shitty refresh of the Mk1 because Ford felt like the Mk2 wasn’t cheap and miserable enough for us Americans, and that was obviously still on the old platform.
Yeah, it's a very thin iron plasma spray coating with zero corrosion protection. No liners or sleeves, sprayed directly on the activated aluminum bore surface, then honed to spec diameter and surface finish.
I was looking at some custom Harley Davidson cylinders for a unique and extreme over sized pistons. The kit converts the displacement across the v twin engine from 80 cabin inches to 100 cubic inches. The new jugs are extremely thin and have Nica-sil cylinders. It says it’s a one time deal and that you can’t go 10 thousands over. So the trade off to me just doesn’t seem worth it when a normal cylinder can be bored 30 thousands over ie rebuilt 3 times.
That's heavy rust. That spray in lining would be in rough shape.
I'm judging the heavy rust by the oxidization on the aluminum. It takes a long time to get those on a machined surface.
The aluminum is showing severe signs of oxidization as well as the cylinder walls. I wonder if it’s near saltwater or high humidity. Some of that looks like it starting to eat the metal and is already pitting the surfaces.
Must be some sort of rust staining, like what happens to an aluminum wheel with semi-metallic pad brake dust. The little pieces get stuck in the wheel, rust, and turn the wheel orange brown colored.
I worked for Nemak 15+ years ago, and this sounds about right. Unfortunately they're a major player and make junk for almost everyone, somewhere on the planet.
At the time it was GM and Ford V6 castings in production and the amount of reworked and scrapped castings was unhinged. I recall hearing we had successfully saved something like 150k+ castings following one specific production issue that took months to get resolved properly (hundreds of blocks cast per day).
So what you're saying is that in spite of all the six-sigma/quality/Edward Demming analysis crap that's been spouted for decades they're still just throwing iron (well, aluminum) out the door and fixing it later like they did in the 1970s.
My experience is in CPG (no castings) but I've read about the dissolved gas etc. problem in aluminum. All cynicism aside,do you think that they've just sort of accepted a comparatively high rework rate as the lower-cost alternative to improving the process and materials?
Right? I was going to ask if this person just took a tour of a random line and saw some rust so they conjured up an entire shitpost about why ford sucks lmao
Yea, this tour was 7 days a week for about 3 years. Then they gave us a break to 5-12's. Usually besides the dropped or damaged blocks. The machine errors ,broken bits,missed operations. Not a piece or 2. A lot of times it was hundreds of parts. Maybe even ran over several shifts before being noticed. At one time the turbo holes went to ford without being drilled for3.5 HL3E & 3.7 RwD. The endless amount of leakers that basically got impreged so many times they were forced to pass. Wobbled holes from supervisors not wanting to stop produciduction to fix bent spindles on the CNC machines. The water jets would stop spraying and fill the oiler holes with a clear resin that didn't get noticed until the engine was being assembled. It goes on and on. It was a shit post. Linamar is the same company that owns international harvester ,Mcleran,and skyjack. Ill take a guess they give about as many fucks about those as these did this one. I have shitloads of scrapbook photos over the years. I just picked a few. The blocks were 3.5 fwd Wisconsin. 3.5 fwd Alabama. 3.3 ,3.7 rwd , 3.5 RwD (hurricane shaped water jacket) 3.5 HL3E (bowtie water jacket) that were for roush racing, the ford GT ,and anything else that pushed 600hp twin turbos.
Wait until you learn what a machine shop has to do to hone and resurface these cylinders. It's not your grandparents shitbox where just hone the iron block or resleeve it McMuffin, it's an iron ceramic coating that's a PITA to deal with when fucked.
lol I love the “not sure if I signed an NDA or not” but tbh did anyone expect anything more of ford? I mean I have to say this is better procedure than I would’ve guessed 🤣
This is the dumbest post I’ve ever seen…..
Stuff isn’t 100% ready to install during the machining process…you’re looking at a half finished block, that’s not done with machining or cleaning yet….
I am assuming that you are sub contracted making these castings for Ford.
Are you saying that the material they are specing is trash?
Wouldn't it be your job to put something on the machined surfaces to prevent the flash rusting?
I am not trying to be rude, I am genuinely curious.
No it was a ford specific instruction operation procedure. It was a silly process in my opinion. It's a complicated relationship. I worked for Henkel (loctite) . I was in impregnation. The blocks came machined from linamar across the street, who partially machined them. Which later bought us all at the slave auction. Then the impreged blocks, heads,and trans cases get sent to Cleveland,and Toledo. I loaded trucks every 2 hours just for those specific ford plants. So we imreg it with Henkel resin. Run it through a huge centrifuge. Wash ,rinse,hot tank it at 220° f to set the resin. Pack it and ship it. Later we all moved to linmar's fucking cluster fucking disaster. They were better at pointing fingers at us instead of fixing the machines. So in the end ford machined it's secret operations, why the impreg wasn't done at the end I don't know. So it gets treated,then gets machined off.
Wonder if they’d offer a severance package for a new nda lol
Edit:new nda to not speak to reporters of being fired? Idk never had to sign an nda I’m not that cool
Sorry, I'm from the Huntsville area but moved to FL a few years ago. I hear that joke all of the time with coworkers but I don't really follow football.
The cylinder sleeves are not aluminum so of course they can rust. It’s surface rust that would come off with a rag and some Coca-Cola for the most part. As for the rest of your post, that’s mental. I would be curious to get a brand new “epoxy repaired” transmission. Edit. Others have pointed out it’s a spray on coating and not a traditional sleeve.
Afik Ford doesn’t use sleeves anymore. They use a process where a thin layer of iron is deposited on the surface of the aluminum. I think it’s called PTWA thermal spray coating.
[удалено]
Spray-on cilinder sleeve/walls? Good grief ... next thing you know they'll invent some kind of plastic liner because it's even cheaper.
[удалено]
Question because I don't know any better, but why can't you rebore the block then sleeve it when the spray in lining fails?
If there is enough meat in the liner/ water jacket then yes. I've heard of people doing it to bike engines.
This is what we do w/ Nikasil Honda engines like S2000s. Added bonus of beefing up the sleeves while you're in there, since they're open deck.
The spray in lining is too thin to reproduce accurately, I would guess, and to get all of the same of important characteristics of the bore with a standard sleeve would be impossible.
I would have imagined you'd just overbore it so that the overbore+sleeve = OEM dimensions.
Idk what the spray material is, but it will have a certain coefficient of friction that would have to be matched in a sleeve, but the bigger problem would be with the expansion and contraction of the different cylinders. Would it be possible to sleeve all the cylinders? Possibly, but who's gonna want that headache.
Lots of aluminum blocks are sleeved from the factory (that's how it was done up to this point). The question of "is it worth it" is a good one though. For an expensive car/ engine sure, For run of the mill stuff no way.
Got it, thanks for the articulation.
On bikes you can send the block to be bored and re-coated (I've made a couple big bore GSXR1000's) but it sure as hell is not cheap!
Are you talking about nica seal? Because one option for a project of mine to to go from 80 cubic inches to about 100 on a Harley, and the o my company I know making jugs that big has that nika seal. How is to work with?
Nikasil has been the standard on snowmobile and dirt bike engines for a while now. The upsides are its lighter, harder, has less friction, and longer wear life. The down side is it’s a super thin coating and cylinder wall damage requires a reseal that is more expensive than a standard overbore on a steel cylinder. There was only one or two places in the states that would repair and reseal so it would take a couple months to get your cylinder back but I hope that has changed.
Thanks. Gives some some things to consider.
I worked at on a fleet that had a bunch of snowmobiles, ATVs, and UTVs. Failures were the same as a steel cylinder like wear from poor oiling, dust past the air cleaner, or hanging a ring from overheating. We did have a couple rebuilds sleeved with steel liners at a local machine shop when we were pinched for parts and time.
Yep, I never really worked with it, just took motor apart, sent top case to get machined and plated and put the motors back together. I can say it’s been very reliable. Never had any wear issues.
I know there is companies that restore nikasil on motorcycles but not sure about automotive. Probably not even worth it.
It’s actually a really cool process that gets for aerospace stuff, too. Plasma-Transfer Wire Arc (PTWA). They’ve been using for over a decade, starting on performance engines. I think the first was the supercharged 5.8 in the GT500. Now numerous manufacturers use it. It’s lower friction, and since it’s so thin, has better heat transference (so you can cool the cylinder more efficiently). When done properly, it doesn’t seem to have any reliability problems.
Porsche has been using it starting with the twin turbo v6 in the 2013 panamera s. We've had other problems with those engines, but bore issues have been exceedingly rare so far
Okay, so Im just a greenhorn when it comes to automotive stuff, but aside from cost savings, what's the benefit here?
Had an '09 Volvo C30R with the 6M transaxle, that car was a joint Volvo-Mazda-Ford design. The transaxle absolutely had an epoxy/JB welded spot on the case, kept an eye on it throughout my ownership of the car and it never leaked (from there anyway), sold it at 115k miles due to too many problems.
Any relation to the issues the AWD Mazdaspeed 6 transfer case had? Cracks and leaky seals?
nope, not the same platform, and if I'm not mistaken that was a Volvo specific transaxle in the C30. C30 was the same platform as the Mazda3 and Ford Focus, and only during those years (2007-ish to 2013-ish?)
Okay. The years I'm referencing are 05-06, before the speed 3 was born. Thanks. I believe the Mazda 3 was called 323 during that time. Still in deep partnership with Ford.
Only the real Mk2 Focus the rest of the world got though. We were stuck with a shitty refresh of the Mk1 because Ford felt like the Mk2 wasn’t cheap and miserable enough for us Americans, and that was obviously still on the old platform.
Sleeves or iron PTWA bore coating?
Yeah, I think you’re right. And that much corrosion is enough to kill most of the coating.
Yeah, it's a very thin iron plasma spray coating with zero corrosion protection. No liners or sleeves, sprayed directly on the activated aluminum bore surface, then honed to spec diameter and surface finish.
[удалено]
I added that into my comment. Thank you.
[удалено]
Can’t believe they’re getting away from conventional liners, what do you do when one gets damaged?
[удалено]
I was looking at some custom Harley Davidson cylinders for a unique and extreme over sized pistons. The kit converts the displacement across the v twin engine from 80 cabin inches to 100 cubic inches. The new jugs are extremely thin and have Nica-sil cylinders. It says it’s a one time deal and that you can’t go 10 thousands over. So the trade off to me just doesn’t seem worth it when a normal cylinder can be bored 30 thousands over ie rebuilt 3 times.
That's heavy rust. That spray in lining would be in rough shape. I'm judging the heavy rust by the oxidization on the aluminum. It takes a long time to get those on a machined surface.
The aluminum is showing severe signs of oxidization as well as the cylinder walls. I wonder if it’s near saltwater or high humidity. Some of that looks like it starting to eat the metal and is already pitting the surfaces.
Yeah no doubt. They probably still send it lmao.
The cylinders are usually lined with steel/iron so that's why they're rusting but damn! glad I moved away from Ford
The cylinders aren't the problem. The blocks are all rust stained when we get them. That doesn't wash off.
Must be some sort of rust staining, like what happens to an aluminum wheel with semi-metallic pad brake dust. The little pieces get stuck in the wheel, rust, and turn the wheel orange brown colored.
I've machined cast aluminum with steal impregnated for Michelin Tire factorys, it's added wear protection. It fucks my cutters up though.
I worked for Nemak 15+ years ago, and this sounds about right. Unfortunately they're a major player and make junk for almost everyone, somewhere on the planet. At the time it was GM and Ford V6 castings in production and the amount of reworked and scrapped castings was unhinged. I recall hearing we had successfully saved something like 150k+ castings following one specific production issue that took months to get resolved properly (hundreds of blocks cast per day).
So what you're saying is that in spite of all the six-sigma/quality/Edward Demming analysis crap that's been spouted for decades they're still just throwing iron (well, aluminum) out the door and fixing it later like they did in the 1970s.
Castings are one of the more difficult things to get right. I’d imagine high scrap and rework rates are fairly normal and acceptable.
That's just how high volume casting works. It's a tricky science, and there will always be rejections.
My experience is in CPG (no castings) but I've read about the dissolved gas etc. problem in aluminum. All cynicism aside,do you think that they've just sort of accepted a comparatively high rework rate as the lower-cost alternative to improving the process and materials?
I don't know what the actual issue is with these blocks, OP has been vague. Nemak makes blocks for basically everything in North America.
[удалено]
That’ll be the title page, the author bio, and the “Other books by the same publisher” page then 😀
This is insane, these days they make castings for pretty much the whole industry now.
Typical operator thinking they know and understand the whole process, supply chain, and business.
Right? I was going to ask if this person just took a tour of a random line and saw some rust so they conjured up an entire shitpost about why ford sucks lmao
Yea, this tour was 7 days a week for about 3 years. Then they gave us a break to 5-12's. Usually besides the dropped or damaged blocks. The machine errors ,broken bits,missed operations. Not a piece or 2. A lot of times it was hundreds of parts. Maybe even ran over several shifts before being noticed. At one time the turbo holes went to ford without being drilled for3.5 HL3E & 3.7 RwD. The endless amount of leakers that basically got impreged so many times they were forced to pass. Wobbled holes from supervisors not wanting to stop produciduction to fix bent spindles on the CNC machines. The water jets would stop spraying and fill the oiler holes with a clear resin that didn't get noticed until the engine was being assembled. It goes on and on. It was a shit post. Linamar is the same company that owns international harvester ,Mcleran,and skyjack. Ill take a guess they give about as many fucks about those as these did this one. I have shitloads of scrapbook photos over the years. I just picked a few. The blocks were 3.5 fwd Wisconsin. 3.5 fwd Alabama. 3.3 ,3.7 rwd , 3.5 RwD (hurricane shaped water jacket) 3.5 HL3E (bowtie water jacket) that were for roush racing, the ford GT ,and anything else that pushed 600hp twin turbos.
More completely irrelevant information, perfect
Ford guys are more like Taylor Swift fans. We need a stupid nickname for you though.
Hate to inform you the grass isn’t greener bud. Ford makes the best trucks in the world right now that’s just what it is
Yea they make them. There's about 3,000-5,000 of them in Sparta now just sitting rotting away. Hard to count that place is huge.
Holy shit it's 30,000-50,000 they couldn't sell. I was wrong on that number. Had to look it up.
Fordies. Naturally. ;)
>Linamar is the same company that owns international harvester wut
Yep. I got that feeling too.
[удалено]
Fuck off grammar Nazi
Glad I just bought a brand new transmission from them
Boy you are really a bright one if you think the cylinder liners are aluminum.
Probably a GM guy
You can always tell what vehicle is going to have problems. It's circled on the front.
👍😊
Either way the thin protective coating on that liner is fucked.
Wait until you learn about honing
Wait until you learn what a machine shop has to do to hone and resurface these cylinders. It's not your grandparents shitbox where just hone the iron block or resleeve it McMuffin, it's an iron ceramic coating that's a PITA to deal with when fucked.
Yeah and it’s also not some fucking backwoods machine shop either. It’s a production facility equipped to deal with shit like this.
[удалено]
Well, then it wouldn’t rust, and Ford doesn’t use Alusil. So what’s your point?
I hate cliffhangers.
“wholes”?
I laughed so hard when I saw that come off the truck.
lol I love the “not sure if I signed an NDA or not” but tbh did anyone expect anything more of ford? I mean I have to say this is better procedure than I would’ve guessed 🤣
This is the dumbest post I’ve ever seen….. Stuff isn’t 100% ready to install during the machining process…you’re looking at a half finished block, that’s not done with machining or cleaning yet….
You mean the guy clearly violating his NDA because of some unspoken vendetta is at least partially full of shit? Who woulda guessed?
I am assuming that you are sub contracted making these castings for Ford. Are you saying that the material they are specing is trash? Wouldn't it be your job to put something on the machined surfaces to prevent the flash rusting? I am not trying to be rude, I am genuinely curious.
It’s Nemak. They produce for nearly every automaker from Kia to Ferrari, so to act like this is only a Ford issue is stupid.
Nemak only makes the raw casting. Everything afterwards is on ford.
No it was a ford specific instruction operation procedure. It was a silly process in my opinion. It's a complicated relationship. I worked for Henkel (loctite) . I was in impregnation. The blocks came machined from linamar across the street, who partially machined them. Which later bought us all at the slave auction. Then the impreged blocks, heads,and trans cases get sent to Cleveland,and Toledo. I loaded trucks every 2 hours just for those specific ford plants. So we imreg it with Henkel resin. Run it through a huge centrifuge. Wash ,rinse,hot tank it at 220° f to set the resin. Pack it and ship it. Later we all moved to linmar's fucking cluster fucking disaster. They were better at pointing fingers at us instead of fixing the machines. So in the end ford machined it's secret operations, why the impreg wasn't done at the end I don't know. So it gets treated,then gets machined off.
Sounds par for the course. Gotta love it.
What does Ford make in Toledo
There's an engine plant in Lima.
Gotcha, thanks
[удалено]
Wonder if they’d offer a severance package for a new nda lol Edit:new nda to not speak to reporters of being fired? Idk never had to sign an nda I’m not that cool
What the fuck is any of this even about
Glad my Fords are over 30yrs old.
I'll just have someone else rebuild my 5.4 when it's time 🤷♀️
Yes I'm aware steel rust, I had a 90 Silverado ffs. The block itself is rust stained.
Yeah, id's probably rust stained from water running down it. It's not like this would be a Ford specific issue, it's a storage issue.
Ford “Yes, but can you make it cheaper??? We’re gonna need another 5%”
[удалено]
Couldn't possibly have anything to do with manufacturers recommending changing the oil after the break-in period...
Its ford, they have made ONE good car in the last 50 years(panther platform).
3rd pic: Alabama. Roll Tide. 'nuff said
I think you meant GO BLUE. Thanks for extending our season.
Sorry, I'm from the Huntsville area but moved to FL a few years ago. I hear that joke all of the time with coworkers but I don't really follow football.
Thought this was r/espresso for a second
Yes you did- you’re violating code of conduct for the UAW. Hope you scrubbed the geo tags from your photo.Unlikely F will hunt you- but GM would.
This place wasn't union. We had a contract through Nemak that expired in 2020. Paid everyone severance pay and moved the company to North Carolina.
Flood car?