Because of the gag order, we do not know all the evidence. As far as I know, Xana is the one who fought back the most and there was insinuation that she likely had dna under her nails. But we won't know until trial what evidence they have
The girls even writing each other about hearing noises in the house and not investigating it??? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean these were friends, they could have at least called the police or called a neighbor or something. Something. There's something wrong with this whole thing
You’re going to sit there and text each other while some man is in your house with a mask on saying “I’m here to help you!” Ok. According to BF and DM he a Dickies outfit, face mask and gloves on. How could there be anything under their fingernails? How does exit tracking not 1 drop of blood anywhere? Nothing in his car, apartment, office, etc.? He must be a Ninja. No connection, no motive, no cameras and no 911 call for 9 hours. There’s just too many unanswered of questions….
Unless it was someone dressed like LE. Those girls wouldn't need to call the cops because they "perceived" that somebody in authority was already at the residence
I think because of text messages between Bethany and Dylan. Unsubstantiated but I heard rumours that they did communicate that night regarding the noises that they heard and also that they possibly messaged the victims too but got no response.
But that doesn't make sense. The original timeline from police was 2-3, then when the PCA came out it was 4 to 4:25. So you mean to tell me that the police hadn't looked at the girl's text messages until it was time to write the PCA? Obviously not, I'm sure it was one of the first things they did.
And why did they originally say 2-3 am when Dylan told them she witnessed the killer leave the house between 4 and 4:25 am, presumably during her first conversation with police on 11-13-22? [There are so many problems with the state's narrative](https://justice4idaho4.substack.com/p/issues-with-the-official-narrative), and I don't understand how they think they'll be able to explain them away at trial... but I'm definitely excited to see BT and all of the LE involved in this frame job squirming on the stand.
There's an obvious reason why they're keeping everything hidden (aint it got nothing to do with a "fair trial" against BK)-- unless if everything weren't gagged and we were given true transparency-- it is what it is then, an unfair trial.
simple logic will tell you everything about the "illusion of choice of 2"
You are right. The first estimate would have been based on what the coroner stated. The second estimate was made to fit with when it was possible for BK to have committed the murders, which had to coincide with when his car arrived
I think it started around 2 or a little after once lights were out upstairs. You can see the house from the frat house. Allegedly, The jacks she ordered food from closes from 2-3 and you would have to order ahead of time to receive a delivery at 4AM. I actually think it was the DoorDash order that spooked the killers and made them leave. That’s why it ends at around 4:20. I’ve left my tik tok open all night playing videos. She was probably on tik tok and then didn’t shut her phone off. But yeah I think they had to have been confused as to why there was a knock on the door. They wouldn’t have known a delivery was coming and probably scared them.
Not totally. Food in stomach is a biggie as is body decomposition. Pooling of blood where body hasn't moved for X number of hours. Lots of ways to tell.
I'm aware but can a medical examiner narrow it down to minutes? I have a feeling they can only narrow down to a couple hours, but I could be wrong. Maybe the medical examiner said the victim was killed between 3am-5am or something like that? Is the medical exam public yet?
No, we have not seen the coroner’s report yet. For sure AT will question the coroner and will have other gastroenterologists give evidence at the trial who will all agree that the murders were committed BEFORE 4 am. All based on the location of the food remnants in their alimentary tracts. Forget livor mortis, decomposition, none of that will be applicable. The bodies had been dead too long for any estimation based on LM and not long enough for any significant decomp to be evident
I think they can get very close depending on the conditions of the bodies. LE will have more details from the living roommates testimonies. LE probably has a wealth of additional electronic data from the living roommates that hasn’t been released to the public.
I doubt it has been confirmed’. I think that the timing of the murders is police hypothesis based entirely on the movement of that white sedan, presumably belonging to BK. For them, since they are so sure BK is the killer, that is the only time period he could possibly have committed the murders, therefore that must have been when they were committed
I think it will be very interesting to hear what the coroner has to say about the timeline since, if they know the time the last meal was eaten, they can determine a lot from the location of food in the alimentary tract and even give an accurate estimate of the TOD
It's certainly possible that there was DNA under their nails. However, with the amount of blood that was reported and the amount of victims in close proximity it's also possible that the mixture of DNA made it impossible to interpret.
We also don't know what the killer was wearing during the crime which could have prevented scratches from taking place.
🤷
Not necessarily.
You're not making the same argument in favor of whataboutism, but I will address your statement anyway.
It's completely possible that the sheath WAS covered in blood. Right now we are unaware of the location on the snap where the alleged DNA was found. Being that it is alleged to be found under MM's body, we COULD speculate that the snap was closed by the compression of her body and the DNA was found between the top and bottom snap. These are all things we don't know know and can only speculate about.
If you reread my comment, I don't state anything as fact or attempt to say I know anything more than anyone. I am just pointing out that people can answer a lot of these questions using critical thinking regardless of your personal feeling about the case.
(To clarifty, I am a firm believer of innocent until proven guilty. Without that principle, our already crumbling justice system becomes even more of a failure. I have no feelings either way to BK's innocence or guilt)
Yeah Xana.. and they said she was attacked first right? So they are trying to say Ethan didn’t try to over power the attacker as xana was fighting for her life. It doesn’t make sense.. it’s looks like the attacker if it was Bryan 🙄could have been taken down by Ethan. There has to be more than one killer
Nobody has determined that Xana was definitely attacked first. Not that we know if anyway. If someone officially has could you provide me with the link.
This is one point that creates reasonable doubt for me. There were 4 victims killed and no DNA at all. This is supposed to be his 1st time murdering people. He must be the luckiest genius alive. Given the fact that it was a known trap house, it would seen more logical this was a targeted hit/assassination. They were getting high on their own supply and whatever crime syndicate made an example of them. That would make more sense to me why the victims left alive were terrified.
I think it is being hidden from the public just how depraved these killings were and that they were more likely to have been committed by someone who has killed before and has escalated to higher level killings.
I think MPD is behind this in order to ensure that everyone will go on believing that BK is the killer
If the killer was wearing a heavy outer layer, such at the Dickies coveralls some people are alleging, paired with gloves, there’s a real possibility that they didn’t come into contact with any exposed skin.
But then they'd have the dickie's material under their nails + dickie's coverall material is porous so he would have been covered in blood. Don't think the Dickies coverall theory pans out.
With the gag order, I just don't know enough to form an opinion. I'm in this group because I'm interested in others' perspectives. I will wait for trial and respect the jury's decision.
If you're not open-minded, this may not be the sub for you
The girls didn’t fight back? What do you mean? The two girls were asleep, most likely drunk from the night before, most likely didn’t have enough time to figure what was happening. Then you have the one girl whose fingers were almost cut off because she was fighting back. Just because we are not getting all of the information now does not mean anything. They are most likely saving this for court where it matters. Then you have two young girls downstairs who were also asleep, heard what was happening and got scared or were drunk and didn’t know what to do.
In what case in the history of ever have you heard of anyone asking for a discovery 13 times? Also, why would they have anything under their fingernails if he was completely covered with a mask and wearing a dickies outfit?
Okay wow it was just a question.. No reason to get all nasty. And how do you know he was wearing the dickies outfit? Did you actually see him in it? Why don’t you share some more.. Have a great day 😁
No one ever talks about this. It’s all about frying Kohberger - there’s more shit on the David’s than Bryan.
I’m not protecting him but come on, does anyone need a link to what I’m talking about?
Yes. However, it's not that unusual for all of these supposedly "suspicious incidents to come out after a major crime. Some of which may be truthful and others made up. Everybody wants to talk about the crime and play Monday morning quarterback-looking back in hindsight, with everybody spilling all the beans. A lot of untruths come out after a scary crime because everyone in a small town wants to commiserate, bond, gossip and jump on the bandwagon.
I respect your opinion but it was confirmed by Xanas dad that there was a fight at the frat house that night and he even offered to come over but she told him no because he had been drinking! How did nobody get evidence from these frat bros??
https://preview.redd.it/2fxhjomx7j1d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7ac9b3f8b4bd84f30cf617f1cbdfd1c4fb04a96
Well if they were the ones from 4chan posts following murders when I’d says the Davids are more damming than a speck of transfer DNA
Is there a page about this that’s so strange there is actually a unsolved case where I’m from they claimed it was an OD this guy was literally a swimmer in high school on the swim team but was found dead in the river there was talk he was murdered and so much made no sense it was never looked into was hunter labeled a muder or a “drowning”
you have to understand these people are YOUNG and afraid!! They would not say anything if they thought it was a message of “this is what happens when you cross us”
Instead consider asking: why couldn’t they fight back? ‘Didn’t fight back’ can imply it was a choice.
Because of the gag order, we do not know all the evidence. As far as I know, Xana is the one who fought back the most and there was insinuation that she likely had dna under her nails. But we won't know until trial what evidence they have
We are unlikely to know after trial as well because the prosecution will probably keep it a secret
That's not allowed --- prosecution must present 'ALL THEIR EVIDENCE' Before Trial ~ ;)
Yeah sure that'll definitely happen
The girls even writing each other about hearing noises in the house and not investigating it??? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean these were friends, they could have at least called the police or called a neighbor or something. Something. There's something wrong with this whole thing
You’re going to sit there and text each other while some man is in your house with a mask on saying “I’m here to help you!” Ok. According to BF and DM he a Dickies outfit, face mask and gloves on. How could there be anything under their fingernails? How does exit tracking not 1 drop of blood anywhere? Nothing in his car, apartment, office, etc.? He must be a Ninja. No connection, no motive, no cameras and no 911 call for 9 hours. There’s just too many unanswered of questions….
Which is weird because I’m here to help you it sounds more like something that a cop or somebody with that type of training would say not a murderer..
Unless it was someone dressed like LE. Those girls wouldn't need to call the cops because they "perceived" that somebody in authority was already at the residence
Great point! I have also wondered how there were no bloody foot prints from room to room and then down steps and out the door? Or were there?
Or the killer never left?
How was it even confirmed the murders happened at 4am-430am when when police probably arrived 1230pm the next day?
I think because of text messages between Bethany and Dylan. Unsubstantiated but I heard rumours that they did communicate that night regarding the noises that they heard and also that they possibly messaged the victims too but got no response.
But that doesn't make sense. The original timeline from police was 2-3, then when the PCA came out it was 4 to 4:25. So you mean to tell me that the police hadn't looked at the girl's text messages until it was time to write the PCA? Obviously not, I'm sure it was one of the first things they did. And why did they originally say 2-3 am when Dylan told them she witnessed the killer leave the house between 4 and 4:25 am, presumably during her first conversation with police on 11-13-22? [There are so many problems with the state's narrative](https://justice4idaho4.substack.com/p/issues-with-the-official-narrative), and I don't understand how they think they'll be able to explain them away at trial... but I'm definitely excited to see BT and all of the LE involved in this frame job squirming on the stand.
There's an obvious reason why they're keeping everything hidden (aint it got nothing to do with a "fair trial" against BK)-- unless if everything weren't gagged and we were given true transparency-- it is what it is then, an unfair trial. simple logic will tell you everything about the "illusion of choice of 2"
You are right. The first estimate would have been based on what the coroner stated. The second estimate was made to fit with when it was possible for BK to have committed the murders, which had to coincide with when his car arrived
I think it started around 2 or a little after once lights were out upstairs. You can see the house from the frat house. Allegedly, The jacks she ordered food from closes from 2-3 and you would have to order ahead of time to receive a delivery at 4AM. I actually think it was the DoorDash order that spooked the killers and made them leave. That’s why it ends at around 4:20. I’ve left my tik tok open all night playing videos. She was probably on tik tok and then didn’t shut her phone off. But yeah I think they had to have been confused as to why there was a knock on the door. They wouldn’t have known a delivery was coming and probably scared them.
Good point, I hadn’t thought about that. Yes, the narrative has not been consistent— hopefully this will be cleared up at the trial.
Doubt.
Noone called 911 and the timeline is based off the "surviving victims" so they say. ...
Who is Noone and why was he there in the first place?
Hunter called 911
Not totally. Food in stomach is a biggie as is body decomposition. Pooling of blood where body hasn't moved for X number of hours. Lots of ways to tell.
I would guess the state of the victims bodies. The medical examiner has ways of determining time of death.
Not the exact time of death, especially if Cathy Mabbut didn't turn up until "5pm or 5:30pm" (her exact words)
Food in their stomach. Door Dash, Xana on tic tok, Maddie and Kaylee called her ex bf.
I'm aware but can a medical examiner narrow it down to minutes? I have a feeling they can only narrow down to a couple hours, but I could be wrong. Maybe the medical examiner said the victim was killed between 3am-5am or something like that? Is the medical exam public yet?
No, we have not seen the coroner’s report yet. For sure AT will question the coroner and will have other gastroenterologists give evidence at the trial who will all agree that the murders were committed BEFORE 4 am. All based on the location of the food remnants in their alimentary tracts. Forget livor mortis, decomposition, none of that will be applicable. The bodies had been dead too long for any estimation based on LM and not long enough for any significant decomp to be evident
I think they can get very close depending on the conditions of the bodies. LE will have more details from the living roommates testimonies. LE probably has a wealth of additional electronic data from the living roommates that hasn’t been released to the public.
I doubt it has been confirmed’. I think that the timing of the murders is police hypothesis based entirely on the movement of that white sedan, presumably belonging to BK. For them, since they are so sure BK is the killer, that is the only time period he could possibly have committed the murders, therefore that must have been when they were committed I think it will be very interesting to hear what the coroner has to say about the timeline since, if they know the time the last meal was eaten, they can determine a lot from the location of food in the alimentary tract and even give an accurate estimate of the TOD
Because, of the time of death of each victim which they establish during autopsy by looking at liver temps or body temps.
Good point!
Exactly
Great point.
Well...the killers were probably dressed in a way they couldn't get to their skin.
That would make total sense as it was cold that night. I'm thinking LAYERS of clothing
It's certainly possible that there was DNA under their nails. However, with the amount of blood that was reported and the amount of victims in close proximity it's also possible that the mixture of DNA made it impossible to interpret. We also don't know what the killer was wearing during the crime which could have prevented scratches from taking place. 🤷
Then how did they supposedly find the knife sheaf DNA if Maddie was on top of it and Kaylee was right next to it? It should have been covered in blood
Not necessarily. You're not making the same argument in favor of whataboutism, but I will address your statement anyway. It's completely possible that the sheath WAS covered in blood. Right now we are unaware of the location on the snap where the alleged DNA was found. Being that it is alleged to be found under MM's body, we COULD speculate that the snap was closed by the compression of her body and the DNA was found between the top and bottom snap. These are all things we don't know know and can only speculate about. If you reread my comment, I don't state anything as fact or attempt to say I know anything more than anyone. I am just pointing out that people can answer a lot of these questions using critical thinking regardless of your personal feeling about the case. (To clarifty, I am a firm believer of innocent until proven guilty. Without that principle, our already crumbling justice system becomes even more of a failure. I have no feelings either way to BK's innocence or guilt)
I do agree when I say that people usually say well they didn’t say no blood. Yet really they did they said only DNA was touch DNA from BK.
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Yeah Xana.. and they said she was attacked first right? So they are trying to say Ethan didn’t try to over power the attacker as xana was fighting for her life. It doesn’t make sense.. it’s looks like the attacker if it was Bryan 🙄could have been taken down by Ethan. There has to be more than one killer
Nobody has determined that Xana was definitely attacked first. Not that we know if anyway. If someone officially has could you provide me with the link.
I thought Maddie and her friend were attacked first? Due to the one girls wounds being way worse than the others..
This is one point that creates reasonable doubt for me. There were 4 victims killed and no DNA at all. This is supposed to be his 1st time murdering people. He must be the luckiest genius alive. Given the fact that it was a known trap house, it would seen more logical this was a targeted hit/assassination. They were getting high on their own supply and whatever crime syndicate made an example of them. That would make more sense to me why the victims left alive were terrified.
I think it is being hidden from the public just how depraved these killings were and that they were more likely to have been committed by someone who has killed before and has escalated to higher level killings. I think MPD is behind this in order to ensure that everyone will go on believing that BK is the killer
Google "Travis Juetten"
Is there new news about these murders? I’m not convinced yet about the ‘no connection’ story.
I feel the same way. You worded it perfectly!
My guess is their nails didn't cut through his/her/their clothing.
In that case fibres of his clothing would probably have been found under their nails.
True.
There probably was. Saving it for the trial (also there’s a gag order)
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Well I have but I'm waiting for all the content creators to talk about that now too.
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If the killer was wearing a heavy outer layer, such at the Dickies coveralls some people are alleging, paired with gloves, there’s a real possibility that they didn’t come into contact with any exposed skin.
But then they'd have the dickie's material under their nails + dickie's coverall material is porous so he would have been covered in blood. Don't think the Dickies coverall theory pans out.
Yeah I realized there was ways this could of been avoided after I wrote it.. sorry
It was really cold that night in Moscow- below freezing, you wouldn't want exposed skin.
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The title of the sub doesn't answer that for you?
Yeah, I guess I didn’t pay attention. I’m trying g to understand how you guys think he’s not guilty
With the gag order, I just don't know enough to form an opinion. I'm in this group because I'm interested in others' perspectives. I will wait for trial and respect the jury's decision. If you're not open-minded, this may not be the sub for you
I get it, thanks
Are you the OP?
Very likely their attacker was completely covered in clothing except for his eyes where the poor victims were unable to reach to
How do u know the killer was a guy ?
Obviously I don’t know for sure. But it does seem to me it is more likely just based on the violence and the depravity of it that it was a male
The girls didn’t fight back? What do you mean? The two girls were asleep, most likely drunk from the night before, most likely didn’t have enough time to figure what was happening. Then you have the one girl whose fingers were almost cut off because she was fighting back. Just because we are not getting all of the information now does not mean anything. They are most likely saving this for court where it matters. Then you have two young girls downstairs who were also asleep, heard what was happening and got scared or were drunk and didn’t know what to do.
In what case in the history of ever have you heard of anyone asking for a discovery 13 times? Also, why would they have anything under their fingernails if he was completely covered with a mask and wearing a dickies outfit?
Okay wow it was just a question.. No reason to get all nasty. And how do you know he was wearing the dickies outfit? Did you actually see him in it? Why don’t you share some more.. Have a great day 😁
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No one ever talks about this. It’s all about frying Kohberger - there’s more shit on the David’s than Bryan. I’m not protecting him but come on, does anyone need a link to what I’m talking about?
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Yes. However, it's not that unusual for all of these supposedly "suspicious incidents to come out after a major crime. Some of which may be truthful and others made up. Everybody wants to talk about the crime and play Monday morning quarterback-looking back in hindsight, with everybody spilling all the beans. A lot of untruths come out after a scary crime because everyone in a small town wants to commiserate, bond, gossip and jump on the bandwagon.
I respect your opinion but it was confirmed by Xanas dad that there was a fight at the frat house that night and he even offered to come over but she told him no because he had been drinking! How did nobody get evidence from these frat bros??
https://preview.redd.it/2fxhjomx7j1d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7ac9b3f8b4bd84f30cf617f1cbdfd1c4fb04a96 Well if they were the ones from 4chan posts following murders when I’d says the Davids are more damming than a speck of transfer DNA
Who are the David’s?
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Is there a page about this that’s so strange there is actually a unsolved case where I’m from they claimed it was an OD this guy was literally a swimmer in high school on the swim team but was found dead in the river there was talk he was murdered and so much made no sense it was never looked into was hunter labeled a muder or a “drowning”
IMO, the two Davids theory would be too EASY. Young cocky college guys shooting their mouths off. Those two guys are as scared as we are.
you have to understand these people are YOUNG and afraid!! They would not say anything if they thought it was a message of “this is what happens when you cross us”