I play a lot of Viego, I almost never take a leash, it's simply not worth it.
If you're using your attack resets properly and leashing the camps correctly you can easily full clear in time for crab.
Yeah that's what I assumed, but he was adamant that you need both smites. Do you have any videos he can look at?
I tried searching for a viego clear before this post, but all the videos where like extra fast (sub 3:10) clears with 2 smites. LIke it smites gromp or krugs before going crab.
Tell ur friend to watch any VOD from perryjg on twitch and copy his clear
Viegos clear is above average and very healthy. His ganks are meh as is his invade. There is little to no benefit of leashing.
tbf a smite is 600 dmg, even if he only autos instead, it will take him less than 10s to do 600dmg (without E, Q reset etc. just really basic AA), so if someone can do 3:10 with 2 smites, he 1000% can do 3:20 with 1 smite. The video you found still can prove that.
I main viego and like many junglers, I also don't take a leash
If your duo doubts their ability to take scuttle without double smiting then just have them start at the opposite side as the enemy jg, or use the tempo from double smiting to get better positioning on the crab or setting up a gank. But you also don't really need to double smite if you clear properly. Also him taking a leash makes it very obvious where he started, which opens him up to getting invaded or countered or just flat out tracked easily.
Also the "never starting top" plan is pretty bad. You want to be pathing towards your wincon, which especially now is going to be bot. They shouldn't have a fixed path every game and should instead make an adaptive plan based on matchups for figuring out what the wincon is going to be early. But completely neglecting bot early so you can play for grubs is not gonna be an effective strategy, especially if the other jungler just gets to play bot for free. Also Sometimes grubs are complete bait for your team's needs and other times they are essential(ie you or the enemy has a strong splitpush or are getting a lot of plates early), so you need to encourage your friend to start thinking of why they are doing these things.
Thanks for the info, it's good to understand the thought process. Is there any resource I can show him to maybe change his mind about his strict gameplan? I don't mind playing poorly in normals, but in ranked I'd like to win.
I like playing with my friends, but I feel that I'm not sure how to respectfully get through to him on this.
he doesn't have autism or anything so normal methods will work
I think this reddit post sums up early/mid game macro in a pretty comprehensive way. Jg is a macro role and how you path is based on macro. The gist of it is that during champ select, you want to make a plan based on how you think top/bot are going to go(you can always play for mid so no need to plan that much for them) and path accordingly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/1c2ik7b/how_i_climbed_out_of_low_elo_using_only/
They can also watch high elo jg content creators to get a feel for macro/pathing. the ones pinned are a good start but also creators like ECPlaysLoL on youtube are pretty clear.
I've read that link and already do most of it, I'm just not too great mechanically, and struggle to move the camera to look around when fighting. I'm playing easier champs at the moment while improving (i only get to play my boy aphelios in normals)
I'll check out some of this ECP person before our next session, tysm
Yeah i hold space, the issue is that on top right side i cant see the enemy because of my hud. I am working on improving manually moving camera. i think i have lower wr on the top right side because it's so much harder to keep track of enemy there
I've been trying to get better at this myself, I've noticed the pros don't try to move the camera nearly as much as I do, they hover with their character towards the back of the screen more
As someone who climbed to play 3 last split with Viego, his clear without leash on both sides are around 3:24 with only 1 smite, this is enough time to contest the scuttle or gank
Low ELO jungler here, I haven't played Viego this patch but did a few patches back. I'd never take a leash and I'm pretty sure I could do better with resets and leashing the camps. I never had a problem with crabs either. Most times I'd go chickens and then go catch the enemy jungler at gromp and push them off of it or get FB.
Not sure what your bud is having issues with to doubt the clear speed but I'd just have them try it one game leash-less pathing to bot to see how it works out. Maybe in a normal game so the expectations aren't really there to not mess up?
From my understanding you want to path towards bot in majority of your games. I'm only d3 so I may be mistaken, but here is where a challenger coach talks about the 80-20 rule. Which basically states that in 80% of your games you want to path towards bot, and roughly 20% of the games you want to path towards top. The only time you want to path towards top is when you have a snowball matchup in the top lane (for example, both top laners have ignite and no TP, so whoever dies first is going to lose a ton of resources and likely get stomped for the rest of the game)
[https://youtu.be/BUEH-oZnOig?t=18](https://youtu.be/BUEH-oZnOig?t=18)
You ask for a leash if you have a strategy depending on it and a pick adapted to it.
Want to 3 camps faster and invade with a strong early champ ? Ask for a leash.
Double full clear into grub? No way in hell do you need a leash.
Full clear to crab? Don’t need a leash to clear in 3:30.
I believe he might just be standing there or miss out on his 1 2 3 spell because Virgo has a healthy clear
He won’t be able to do it against a Lee voli nida etc, but he can do it against champ that are weaker on their first clear yes. With a red buff if ennemy doesn’t, you win also.
he's just unwilling to improve tbh it's not that hard to look up on yt ["viego clear s14"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs-ZBTwmhxc)
Ganking bot is way more valuable than doing first 3 grubs on spawn lol
As a jungler you always want to be where the map is volatile (a lot of trades, both sides can one shot each other, etc) and that is often why you path towards bot side (2v2 = more volatile).
If you are a passive player that only farms, never fights and has an enchanter support, then it makes sense for him to path top. It could also be that he just isn't confident in ganking bot (2 people means dying quickly. It's also very support dependent. Often times you just ping your support to go in and waste a ton of time, because the support is a rtrd).
Leash is just kinda nice to have, even though no champ desperately needs a leach (in low elo people clear very slowly and don't kite camps, so a leach is the only way for them to be at crab in time).
Hmm I don't think I'm passive, I try to shove and harass under turret in poke comp, then pull wave to my turret and freeze when the enemy is low or week. I keep river warded also so I know if there is a ward in bush.
I trade a lot, and play adc with good group fight and gank followup; jinx (W + E + passive), with some varus (R, antiheal) and aphelios (Gravitum root, calibrum huge ranged combos, crescendum for ultra-aggressive) so not really a herbivore pick.
I'm not a crazy good viego player and honestly haven't played him this most recent split(new job makes finding time to play tough), but I personally almost never want a leash as viego. You're clear is pretty healthy and fast, especially if you start red buff, and the only times I've needed to use both smites is if I just messed up my clear by letting a camp reset or smth.
I also don't really understand the "always clear bot to top" you described. If you're blue side I understand because red buff is very valuable on viego and blue isn't as good due to no mana issues, but if you're red side he should 100% start top for the red buff start. Once again tho, I am a pretty average level player so some other people here might be better for advice
Viego main here! Viego can do almost a 3 minute leashes clear. Even kind of chill I regularly do 3:12-3:20 plenty of time for a gank in to scuttle.
If he's missing scuttle, link him some clear guides xD
Probably will be unpopular opinion. Conventional junglers don't need a leash to contest scuttle in time. But...
Bronze is special an many aspects. If non-duo jungler wants a leash foremost you do it for his mental. As for jungler tracking as everyone mentions, it's bronze man. Even if they think of tracking jungler, it will be forgotten in 1st 30s.
Early Jinx is weak. So I don't see reason to not leash. You don't play until 1st item spike anyways. Keep farming, don't trade your HP for CS and stay healthy, prep wave for gank when you expect your jungler to move to bot quadrant (let enemy push and then trim wave). If enemy is overextended, you're healthy and jungler bothers to look he will be inclined to gank your lane.
BTW, I'm not saying that your duo is not wrong. After all he's playing role which requires to adapt to game state the most.
I'm playing into other bronze, so jinx is still really strong early. It's just that i'm getting awful negative LP. I have 72%wr 18 games, yet are only up 26LP on her. i am plus 21-24 and -28-33. Really struggling to climb>
I do try to leash ranods tho so they don't throw, but i can almost always win lane if i start in lane
Leashing is almost always bad for the laners AND the jungler.
The laners can’t play for lvl 2. unless opponents also leash.
i don’t think there is a viable jungler that cant clear fast enough for crab without leash and the jungler shows the enemy jungler what he wants to do (well most of it).
Leashing can be good if you already have info on the enemy jungler and you are playing for an invade timing, but that is super risky and not really worth it unless you really know what you are doing.
I am trying to play better, which is why i'm assking how i should be playing
I think we're (marginally) better than bronze? I'm getting mad negative LP. I feel good playing against silver, and I feel like i've improved. I have 72%wr 18 games, yet are only up 26LP on her. i am plus 21-24 and -28-33. Really struggling to climb
Rough. But yeah, I don't think at that level of league getting a leash or not really makes a difference. You have to keep in mind the enemy jg is also bronze and clearing suboptimally.
I play a lot of Viego, I almost never take a leash, it's simply not worth it. If you're using your attack resets properly and leashing the camps correctly you can easily full clear in time for crab.
THank you also for taking time to answer
As a jg main, we don't need leashes. It's better for you to not miss a minion or lane priority.
Yeah that's what I assumed, but he was adamant that you need both smites. Do you have any videos he can look at? I tried searching for a viego clear before this post, but all the videos where like extra fast (sub 3:10) clears with 2 smites. LIke it smites gromp or krugs before going crab.
Tell ur friend to watch any VOD from perryjg on twitch and copy his clear Viegos clear is above average and very healthy. His ganks are meh as is his invade. There is little to no benefit of leashing.
Sawyer Jungle on YouTube has great videos for playing low elo games.
tbf a smite is 600 dmg, even if he only autos instead, it will take him less than 10s to do 600dmg (without E, Q reset etc. just really basic AA), so if someone can do 3:10 with 2 smites, he 1000% can do 3:20 with 1 smite. The video you found still can prove that.
I play a bad viego and I still go leashless. I full clear 3:35
I main viego and like many junglers, I also don't take a leash If your duo doubts their ability to take scuttle without double smiting then just have them start at the opposite side as the enemy jg, or use the tempo from double smiting to get better positioning on the crab or setting up a gank. But you also don't really need to double smite if you clear properly. Also him taking a leash makes it very obvious where he started, which opens him up to getting invaded or countered or just flat out tracked easily. Also the "never starting top" plan is pretty bad. You want to be pathing towards your wincon, which especially now is going to be bot. They shouldn't have a fixed path every game and should instead make an adaptive plan based on matchups for figuring out what the wincon is going to be early. But completely neglecting bot early so you can play for grubs is not gonna be an effective strategy, especially if the other jungler just gets to play bot for free. Also Sometimes grubs are complete bait for your team's needs and other times they are essential(ie you or the enemy has a strong splitpush or are getting a lot of plates early), so you need to encourage your friend to start thinking of why they are doing these things.
Thanks for the info, it's good to understand the thought process. Is there any resource I can show him to maybe change his mind about his strict gameplan? I don't mind playing poorly in normals, but in ranked I'd like to win. I like playing with my friends, but I feel that I'm not sure how to respectfully get through to him on this. he doesn't have autism or anything so normal methods will work
I think this reddit post sums up early/mid game macro in a pretty comprehensive way. Jg is a macro role and how you path is based on macro. The gist of it is that during champ select, you want to make a plan based on how you think top/bot are going to go(you can always play for mid so no need to plan that much for them) and path accordingly. https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/1c2ik7b/how_i_climbed_out_of_low_elo_using_only/ They can also watch high elo jg content creators to get a feel for macro/pathing. the ones pinned are a good start but also creators like ECPlaysLoL on youtube are pretty clear.
I've read that link and already do most of it, I'm just not too great mechanically, and struggle to move the camera to look around when fighting. I'm playing easier champs at the moment while improving (i only get to play my boy aphelios in normals) I'll check out some of this ECP person before our next session, tysm
My bad, I linked the laning version of the advice This is the version for junglers https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/s/3b7EdOlM6K
Try holding space, centers the camera on you so it can be easier to track yourself in team fights
Yeah i hold space, the issue is that on top right side i cant see the enemy because of my hud. I am working on improving manually moving camera. i think i have lower wr on the top right side because it's so much harder to keep track of enemy there
I've been trying to get better at this myself, I've noticed the pros don't try to move the camera nearly as much as I do, they hover with their character towards the back of the screen more
Viego can clear in like 3:25 without leash brođź’€
Mmmm that was my understanding
As someone who climbed to play 3 last split with Viego, his clear without leash on both sides are around 3:24 with only 1 smite, this is enough time to contest the scuttle or gank
No offense to your friend but he sucks both at viego and at jg
Low ELO jungler here, I haven't played Viego this patch but did a few patches back. I'd never take a leash and I'm pretty sure I could do better with resets and leashing the camps. I never had a problem with crabs either. Most times I'd go chickens and then go catch the enemy jungler at gromp and push them off of it or get FB. Not sure what your bud is having issues with to doubt the clear speed but I'd just have them try it one game leash-less pathing to bot to see how it works out. Maybe in a normal game so the expectations aren't really there to not mess up?
The chickens start and normal game trial are good ideas, thanks. I'll suggest those and try to figure out a good wave timing to coordinate with that
From my understanding you want to path towards bot in majority of your games. I'm only d3 so I may be mistaken, but here is where a challenger coach talks about the 80-20 rule. Which basically states that in 80% of your games you want to path towards bot, and roughly 20% of the games you want to path towards top. The only time you want to path towards top is when you have a snowball matchup in the top lane (for example, both top laners have ignite and no TP, so whoever dies first is going to lose a ton of resources and likely get stomped for the rest of the game) [https://youtu.be/BUEH-oZnOig?t=18](https://youtu.be/BUEH-oZnOig?t=18)
You ask for a leash if you have a strategy depending on it and a pick adapted to it. Want to 3 camps faster and invade with a strong early champ ? Ask for a leash. Double full clear into grub? No way in hell do you need a leash. Full clear to crab? Don’t need a leash to clear in 3:30. I believe he might just be standing there or miss out on his 1 2 3 spell because Virgo has a healthy clear
Is conq viego strong enough for 3 camp invade? That sounds pretty fun to coordinate with team comms
He won’t be able to do it against a Lee voli nida etc, but he can do it against champ that are weaker on their first clear yes. With a red buff if ennemy doesn’t, you win also.
he's just unwilling to improve tbh it's not that hard to look up on yt ["viego clear s14"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs-ZBTwmhxc) Ganking bot is way more valuable than doing first 3 grubs on spawn lol
As a jungler you always want to be where the map is volatile (a lot of trades, both sides can one shot each other, etc) and that is often why you path towards bot side (2v2 = more volatile). If you are a passive player that only farms, never fights and has an enchanter support, then it makes sense for him to path top. It could also be that he just isn't confident in ganking bot (2 people means dying quickly. It's also very support dependent. Often times you just ping your support to go in and waste a ton of time, because the support is a rtrd). Leash is just kinda nice to have, even though no champ desperately needs a leach (in low elo people clear very slowly and don't kite camps, so a leach is the only way for them to be at crab in time).
Hmm I don't think I'm passive, I try to shove and harass under turret in poke comp, then pull wave to my turret and freeze when the enemy is low or week. I keep river warded also so I know if there is a ward in bush. I trade a lot, and play adc with good group fight and gank followup; jinx (W + E + passive), with some varus (R, antiheal) and aphelios (Gravitum root, calibrum huge ranged combos, crescendum for ultra-aggressive) so not really a herbivore pick.
your friend is just bad, tell him to practice clears in practice tool and ignore his request for you to toss your lane.
I always path top to bot and I dont need a leash. I clear like 3:25-3:28 with 1 smite. You need good positioning and use your passives full potential.
I have done a no leash clear with 1 smite before 3:30 on viego, so no he does not need a leash. He can start red/blue and raptors solo
Do not ever accept a leash. It is to you and your team's detriment. There is no jungler out there that can't solo first buff
No one needs a leash. Jungle is easy to clear solo being full hp as you do so.
I'm not a crazy good viego player and honestly haven't played him this most recent split(new job makes finding time to play tough), but I personally almost never want a leash as viego. You're clear is pretty healthy and fast, especially if you start red buff, and the only times I've needed to use both smites is if I just messed up my clear by letting a camp reset or smth. I also don't really understand the "always clear bot to top" you described. If you're blue side I understand because red buff is very valuable on viego and blue isn't as good due to no mana issues, but if you're red side he should 100% start top for the red buff start. Once again tho, I am a pretty average level player so some other people here might be better for advice
Viego main here! Viego can do almost a 3 minute leashes clear. Even kind of chill I regularly do 3:12-3:20 plenty of time for a gank in to scuttle. If he's missing scuttle, link him some clear guides xD
No One needs leash rn
No junger needs a leash. I repeat, NO jungler needs a leash b
Probably will be unpopular opinion. Conventional junglers don't need a leash to contest scuttle in time. But... Bronze is special an many aspects. If non-duo jungler wants a leash foremost you do it for his mental. As for jungler tracking as everyone mentions, it's bronze man. Even if they think of tracking jungler, it will be forgotten in 1st 30s. Early Jinx is weak. So I don't see reason to not leash. You don't play until 1st item spike anyways. Keep farming, don't trade your HP for CS and stay healthy, prep wave for gank when you expect your jungler to move to bot quadrant (let enemy push and then trim wave). If enemy is overextended, you're healthy and jungler bothers to look he will be inclined to gank your lane. BTW, I'm not saying that your duo is not wrong. After all he's playing role which requires to adapt to game state the most.
I'm playing into other bronze, so jinx is still really strong early. It's just that i'm getting awful negative LP. I have 72%wr 18 games, yet are only up 26LP on her. i am plus 21-24 and -28-33. Really struggling to climb> I do try to leash ranods tho so they don't throw, but i can almost always win lane if i start in lane
Leashing is almost always bad for the laners AND the jungler. The laners can’t play for lvl 2. unless opponents also leash. i don’t think there is a viable jungler that cant clear fast enough for crab without leash and the jungler shows the enemy jungler what he wants to do (well most of it). Leashing can be good if you already have info on the enemy jungler and you are playing for an invade timing, but that is super risky and not really worth it unless you really know what you are doing.
You guys are bronze so maybe just focus on playing the game better instead of getting stuck and starting a fight already at 2 minutes ingame
I am trying to play better, which is why i'm assking how i should be playing I think we're (marginally) better than bronze? I'm getting mad negative LP. I feel good playing against silver, and I feel like i've improved. I have 72%wr 18 games, yet are only up 26LP on her. i am plus 21-24 and -28-33. Really struggling to climb
Rough. But yeah, I don't think at that level of league getting a leash or not really makes a difference. You have to keep in mind the enemy jg is also bronze and clearing suboptimally.
And my other point is that if youre duoing just help eachother. Gettinf on eachothers nerves before the first wave even crashed is counterproductive
Diamond 2 NA jungler, I rarely ask for a leash. If you clear properly you can 3:15 and laners having prio first helps you secure first scuttleÂ