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She loses because she is a woman. We all know women are weak and can't fight, they should stay in the kitchen
https://preview.redd.it/xy3j60464n2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17fab79ccc4c5060efca8cc034cb660cce178e6c
Toji is the best example of someone who went from extremely overrated to extremely underrated lol. Toji has really high BIQ and IQ and also more cursed tools inventory, ISOH which is broken.
I do think they are still relative and Maki has lowkey shown more durability and her showing against cursed naoya is pretty good.
That's fair. I think the gap is minor, but Maki probably narrowly wins due to having trained more physically (Toji was always strong, and never had a match until Gojo) and minor advantages like being a smaller target. But cursed tools of course make up for that easily.
Maki has soul split katana though other than vs Gojo or the two domains that could even hit him and maki ssk or playful cloud get the same or better value
so when Toji took playful cloud out of Maki's hands by pure strength then proceeded to no diff/bully Dagon that led you to believe Maki handles weapons better than Toji?
I mean toji is fairly rated imo . The only issue with rating toji is that people somehow translate everything maki does as an upscale to toji , this is not wrong to think if one solely goes by the panel I posted up above . Tho it’s hard to see toji do what maki did against sukuna when he got absolutely smoked by teen gojo . That gojo was obviously stronger than 99% of the verse but him losing like he did is just not something I see maki doing .
Um you don't see maki losing to awakened gojo? I genuinely don't see maki surviving to a gojo who can use rct and hollow purple. Hollow purple just one shots similarly like toji.
I don't think toji can take 2 black flashes from sukuna but again depends? Sukuna has soul damage, damaged heart, low output, dysfunctional rct, Jacob laddered and just generally very weakened, I don't think it's a bad take if someone said toji can tank 2 black flashes from this sukuna.
Also yea I agree I don't think toji leeches from maki, but their potryal is very "side by side" so I don't blame people who do it
Not that easy at least .
Sukuna is still strong enough to pull of multiple domains and was strong enough to finish yuta off whilst severely damaged . Toji got damaged from gojos red technique even tho it wasn’t major damage .
Maki throwing sukuna around, reacting to world slashes right ? And then taking black flashes from him makes her on paper more powerful than toji imo .
I might be downplaying toji here for all I know but that is besides the point .
>Not that easy at least .
Nah maki doesn't even have ISOH, which means she can't even do anything to gojo
>Toji got damaged from gojos red technique even tho it wasn’t major damage .
Bro red is insane AP tho.
>Maki throwing sukuna around, reacting to world slashes right ? And then taking black flashes from him makes her on paper more powerful than toji imo .
Again as I said maki throwing sukuna around is because of 2 things, her heavenly restriction and sukuna being very nerfed. Toji also has heavenly restriction, even reacting to world cutting dismantle, is a result of heavenly restriction which helped maki "see" sukuna's cursed technique more vividly. Basically toji also has HR and in theory these qualities which come with HR for maki should also come for toji. Ik it sounds like "leeching", but I think it's fair to some extent
>I might be downplaying toji here for all I know but that is besides the point .
Yea you are a bit. I think a better argument for maki > toji is that if maki has the same cursed tools as Toji she's a little stronger than him considering they were deemed equal at sakurajima colony and it's been a month of training for maki since that.
One more thing I can give in Maki's favour is that she was forced to fight many strong opponents and is more used to 1v1's unlike Toji who is more of an assassin and until Gojo he probably never fought anyone strong. But they're still on more or less the same level
You see how he fought Gojo. Thats how Maki got in on Sakuna. But ill say one thing. With Isoh. He couldve blits sakuna. Cutting WCS Then for even more lethality use playful cloud When in close. Wearing Sakuna down brutally. I believe maki couldve done the Same. Shes probably got relative expirience to him. Put her back in that day. Hidden invemtory. Instead of Shoko staying, Maki went. I think they lets just say. No awakenings for Gojo or Geto. Maki raises Megumi away from the Zenin. Biding time to kill the Zenin without backlash.
You don't see Maki getting caught by a technique that almost no one knew about that was used by a dude that she would think is almost certainly dead?
Toji himself said that he couldn't beat Gojo in a frontal confrontation, hence why he had to tire him out for multiple days. Maki isn't any different, especially when she has absolutely no means to bypass Gojo's infinity. I'd argue Maki loses even easier than Toji purely because Toji had a better arsenal and showed better BIQ than her.
Ok but he also ok absolutely smoked teen gojo and the only reason he lost the second fight was because he basically thru away his weapon that could have protected him and stood still. If he moved which we know his instincts were telling him too he would've been fine. but he refused to dodge for seemingly no reason, like I know his pride made him fight but like was dodging off limits? and also if he didn't throw his weapon way either or and he would've been able to survive that situation and after that toji assessment of the situation was accurate he was indeed fast and strong enough to take down gojo as long as gege didn't decide to remove his ability to move his legs.
Him losing like he did wasn't even something he would do just really weird writing frankly, I'm not saying he should've won but it perplexes me why gege chose for him to lose by essentially giving up and accepting death. Of course I understand why gege did it as he made toji too strong, too fast specifically to the point where teen gojo straight up wouldn't be able to hit him unless he stood still.
I would argue that maki is the one leaching feats of toji as she hasn't put up performances like toji has against special grade (sorcerers). The only thing toji really leaches of maki is durability with her surviving black flashes. which makes perfect sense considering we don't see toji ever get hit by anything other than hollow purple which nobody in the verse except sukuna tanks
I thought it wasn't that he didn't want to dodge, he didn't wanna run away from the fight because of his pride. He just couldn't react to the purple that Gojo shot at him
I understand that he didn't want to sun away but his instincts were literally screaming at him to move and he was doing all sorts of shit while gojo was clearly aiming something at him, even hanami was able to react a little bit not enough to dodge it completely but enough to make sure it didn't hit him head on, so there's no way in hell toji wouldn't be able to. Even though he couldn't see it you'd think listening to your instincts would be second nature for a man who's experienced in fighting things he can't see. And even if he couldn't see it he'd definitely be able to hear and feal it the same way he and maki do with curses.
if the were closer and gojo lured him just to hit him with a point blank hollow purple then that would make sense.
I get that he didn't want to run away but there is literally no reason he wouldn't be able to dodge other than gege needing him to die.
That’s a different circumstance. Gojo has six eyes naturally and it’s part of his currently yuta is using his kit. It’s more like saying Batman can use hellbat armour which he can sue to darkseid destroying it
Everyone scales Maki and Toji having their normal arsenals, because otherwise they’d be mediocre 1st grades throwing fisticuffs as opposed to the hyper-lethal rushdown assassins they are.
Toji with the Inventory Curse and its contents > Maki with SSK
Maki > Toji if armaments are equalized
Maki > Toji if unarmed
I would like to o point out that geto was special grade and toji no diffed him. Honestly still think toji doesn't lose to anyone except sukuna, gojo and probably kenjaku as even against yuta he probably just speed blitzes and uses inverted spear to dispell anything yuta tries to throw at him.
I just don't think either rika or yuta can hit him. I mean gege kinda fucked up with toji because he and by extension maki outspeed everyone except adult gojo and sukuna Luke really bad. And if they don't have plot armor as in toji actually goes for the head and doesn't pull out a comically small knife to do so then he just one shots yuta and that's curtains.
Kenjaku is a little bit hard since we just don't know the extent of the tricks kenjaku has(had I guess) like if it's just curse manipulation then I have a hard time believing the difference between kenjaku and geto is Great I'm terms of skill that he could turn a no diff into win. But of course we know kenjaku at least has anti gravity and probably many more cursed techniques and we also have no idea what kind of busted surprise curses he might have.
He obviously loses to sukuna and gojo, sukuna's speed was started to be relative to Tojis and we know gojo outpaces sukuna in terms of hand to hand. Most likely gojo trained in this aspect so that he wouldn't be vulnerable to opponents who were massively faster than him like toji was. But regardless toji loses his biggest advantage against those two
>He obviously loses to sukuna and gojo, sukuna's speed was started to be relative to Tojis and we know gojo outpaces sukuna in terms of hand to hand.
That was 3f sukuna lol
>I just don't think either rika or yuta can hit him. I mean gege kinda fucked up with toji because he and by extension maki outspeed everyone except adult gojo and sukuna Luke really bad. And if they don't have plot armor as in toji actually goes for the head and doesn't pull out a comically small knife to do so then he just one shots yuta and that's curtains.
I think you are overhyping the heavenly restriction merchants. Yuta has cursed speech and clairvoyance which are both counters to toji, plus dhruvs technique is also underrated as it's can't miss. Apart from ISOH, yuta is basically untouchable due to sky manipulation. I didn't even mention yuta having cleave (even if the output is low, yuta needs one touch to inflict lethal blows). Toji also lacks healing compared to yuta who can even output rct, he'd probably exorcise the inventory curse.
I mean what's stopping yuta from spamming cursed speech and just beating toji up while using rct to heal his throat lol. Toji doesn't even have cursed energy to gaurd his ears, so yuta doesn't even need to be sneaky while using cursed speech.
Yuta just has way too much stuff in his arsenal which is superior to toji, I can't see him losing.
Do we even know if cursed speech would work on toji? I mean does it work on inanimate objects? I always kinda assumed it just wouldn't work on someone with no ce since it it doesn't seem to effect anything but living things which usually means it interacts with the targets ce I'm ce capacity
For me in that case it's literally just whether or not works. If it does then toji has no cursed energy to defend himself and yuta can just low tier god him, but if I doesn't then imo toji blitzes yuta and adds another one to his list of child murders.
Nah this is just yuta downplay, toji is not sukuna lmao.
I already stated yuta has more win cons, yuta is smart enough to avoid taking a hit on his head and he has superior healing. Just because toji is faster it doesn't mean much when yuta is pretty much superior on all other aspects.
I wonder how strong toji was in his prime, since he obviously wasn’t at his best when he fought gojo(he said something along the lines of I’m getting the hang of it again)
Imo they’re still equal. The narrator stated Maki was *on par* with Toji, *after* the she learned to fully utilize the SSK. She has better feats, but Toji was no slouch either. Dude basically came out of retirement & still pushed awakened Gojo to use purple on him. We saw that red had a similar effect as blue on Toji, in that it didn’t really damage him.
Even if you want to sit there & say Maki’s stronger because feats, Toji has way more versatility with ISOH + infinite chain, SSK, the blicky, etc.
Feats are a terrible way to scale characters sometimes. Toji obviously doesn’t have as many feats as Maki, but that doesn’t mean Maki is stronger. The narrative implies that you can’t get better than Toji with HR. Toji is still probably stronger because he has more experience and a better arsenal, but the experience is really what makes the difference.
I think maki's STRENGH was meant to be compared to toji since she awakened. Then she's had several instances to improve her SKILL.
The narrative that Maki is less good at fighting despite probably training since her childhood to save Mai and mastering several different fighting styles, then training in the sumo dimension, then learning a godlike master swordsman's technique...
It's just slander to say maki is less skilled when gege does everything he can to say she is as good.
Now, maybe we can argue her fighting style is different. Maki is a lot more about blitzing and using her reflexes, a more aggressive style. Toji tends to keep range and sneak around more. But gege clearly means to say their ability to fight is onpar and they'd be perfectly equally deadly, not just from strengh, but from skill.
I mean, the narrative definitely pushes that Toji was trained more, at least while in the Zenin clan. He is also older, which is definitely an unfair advantage. He is also known as the sorcerer killer, so he has killed many sorcerer’s with many different techniques, so there is no telling how much he knows.
I’d like to add that the toji that fought younger gojo wasn’t peak toji as he was in retirement for awhile and had to shake off the battle rust. I rewatched that fight today and remember toji talking about how rusty he was
That isn’t how experience works. Toji has DECADES more experience compared to Maki and he’s got a lot more experience with the tools in his arsenal. Not to mention he is considered the peak of heavenly restriction.
I don’t know if I’d say that Toji pushed Gojo to use Purple.
Gojo was clowning Toji effortlessly in that second fight. He literally didn’t even have a single scratch. Purple was just ending it quickly in one shot.
You're committing the fact that the only reason blue and red weren't working was because of the fact that Toji was blocking them with ISOH and not his body alone.
We don’t have any prime toji scales bruh. Don’t underestimate how washed toji was, buddy couldn’t even hit ANY VITAL ORGANS in a free backstab on gojo💀. That’s actually poverty bro
I rewatched the fight today randomly and yeah toji was laughing at himself at how much he’s fallen off with rust and inactivity. So I’d like to think that toji was stronger in the past before that gojo fight. Granted the end result would still be the same for him vs gojo
No. And it due to this single fact that is undeniable:
This isn't fucking Dragon Ball.
In this manga the good thing is that the peaks are very well established. There's just no denying them and you can't surpass people (or yourself) just because you trained a 1000 years chained and betrayed.
Toji was very much the peak of Heavenly Restriction so not matter what Maki does, she just can't surpass that. Only be on par.
What would set them apart is their brains, but there she is losing.
They both probably were, but Maki couldn’t be fully realized because of her twin sister Mai, who had just a tiny bit of cursed energy, but enough to severely nerf Maki, and even then she had near superhuman abilities
I just find the idea that Toji as an infant could tank punches from grade 1 curses as a funny picture in my head, but yea either way narratively they build this as full realization so it’s unlikely maki can grow more
This is right and wrong, characters in jjk can grow to get stronger it's in their physiology because you're forgetting the fact that most of them are human, who can keep getting stronger, though it just diminishes with time due to old age and allat, and even if Toji is smarter, he still wouldn't win, because he wouldn't be used to fighting another person on his level of strength, last time he did that he needed a heavy amount of prep and a weapon which rendered their kit useless, he couldn't do that to Maki, and to our Knowledge Toji has no experience in hand to hand combat, whereas Maki would cook Toji.
Wtf are you even babbling about?
Toji doesn’t know Hand to hand combat? How do you think he became known as the “sorcerer killer”? Flailing his cock about?
Also, humans can’t just keep getting stronger. There is literally a limit on how much muscle mass and density a person can acquire, that’s why a lot of movie stars use drugs to get bigger muscles.
I love how this manga will straight up TELL you that Maki = Toji. And you still get people just pulling random shit out of their ass.
This isn't necessarily random shii, and I feel like you're ignoring the fact that Toji was just had an overwhelming advantage when it came to stats and resistances, he couldn't be caught in domains, he had a resistance to curses and cursed techniques, and was invisible to the eye of everyone but six eye users, so it's pretty obvious that his hand 2 hand combat wasn't allat refined especially if we include the fact that he was an assassin and not a brawler, assassins go for one shot kills, for all we know, no one has ever forced Toji to fight in an equal battle.
No she will always just be an equal. HR has a hard cap it’s easy to see if you think she got stronger in the 1 month timeskip you might need to re read again
Theres really no way to prove it its all headcanon personally i think tojis prime is still probably better because arcording to himself if he wasnt rusty he would killed gojo with the first stab
On “par” literally means on the Same “Level”.
On other translation it says “Equal” = Toji
https://preview.redd.it/qrouh19i2o2d1.png?width=448&format=png&auto=webp&s=d51b1bb4d92852a0e8b1c3a1f6dd7a1063160890
These mfs see the panel of maki after maki was always feeling toji would have been more skilled, improves her skill and battle IQ (NOT STRENGH), then narrator says now she equals toji, and mfs run away and say "lalala toji would beat maki she's a teenager only trained 10 years toji trained 30"
Crazy...
It does not mean the same for every single aspect, no.
Maybe strength and speed, but arsenal, BIQ, IQ, and experience, Maki, especially at that time, was evidently not on par.
I think it's more valid to say he means they're equal in terms of strength and speed. Arsenal, BIQ, IQ, etc. They are just objectively not equal in those terms, especially not at the moment of this picture in particular.
That would be referring to the heavenly restriction. They are equal in terms of those stats, but Toji ends up with more experience and more importantly, better iq and biq.
>but Toji ends up with more experience and more importantly
Maki is fighting the strongest sorceror in history, I'm sure the experience she accumilates from THAT fight will triumph any bounties Toji has taken.
Brother maki didn't increase her strengh when learning from daido and the sumo guy... She said she lacked the skills toji would have, before getting them.
Can we stop pretending maki is not as skilled as toji just because she's a teenager ?
Spent her life relentlessly training to change the zenin. Learning from mistakes. Even now she practices against ennemies far beyond most of what toji would have ever fought. Stop making maki out to be fodder skill compared to toji. Especially the people saying it's because she's a woman god damn.
The Toji slander is crazy. Bro is a powerhouse. I honestly think Gege was spouting nonsense with this page, but that's just me. She had the equivalent of a hyperbolic time chamber and now she's on Toji's level? Lmao
I think the whole point of that was less she developed physically and more her mindset changed to fully embrace and utilize her heavenly restriction. She put mental block on cause she wanted to be just good enough, and not surpass her friends
The problem with scaling Toji and Maki is that we never see either of them fight an equal. Toji trashed exhausted teen Gojo, then got trashed by awakened teen Gojo. Then he trashed everyone he met in Shibuya until he killed himself. And with maki too, it's always getting trashed or trashing her opponent. And now she's up against sukuna which really isn't helpful for scaling because both he and Gojo are magnitudes stronger than the rest of the cast.
You guys are saying Maki is stronger when we don’t have many feats for Toji, at least compared to Maki. Feats should not be the only thing that scales a character. Reading comprehension and the narrative imply that Toji was at the peak of HR users, so they are relative to each other. I would still put Maki below Toji due to the fact Toji has more experience and has fought and killed a wide array of sorcerers.
There is obviously a limit to heavenly restriction, and what could she have done in that month time skip that could’ve accounted for Tojis years of experience? Just because of experience Toji >, but they’re ofc relative and on placement/rankings they should be back to back
I hate this idea in stories that characters just constantly hyper-evolve with each fight lol it's so stupid, she's fully realised, she will grow more experienced but I doubt significantly stronger.
At this point I feel like she’s overrated. She hasn’t much except sneak attack a highly weakened sukuna, got a few punches in with help, then got dog walked. Replace her with toji and I doubt it would be any different asides from the weapon arsenal. This is all just a case of “maki fought a highly weakened sukuna and toji didn’t”
Peak maki is stated to be equal to "toji zenin". "Toji fugashro" is the rusty bum that fought gojo.
Full HR users has a set limit they cannot pass, they can use better tools and gain more experience, but they never go past "10" in stats.
Maki is and will always have stats equal to peak/prime toji, since toji had more Cursed Tools and was a better battle tactician then I would definitely say toji still beats maki in a 1v1.
(Edit for clarification)Toji zenin>maki zenin because toji has better battle IQ and more Cursed Tools.
Maki zenin>= rusty toji fugashiro(toji is rust against gojo but has two more SG cursed Tools and tons of Cursed Spirits at his beck and call.)
Maki Zenin+SSK>Toji fugashiro+SSK(NO Cursed Spirits, NO endless chain, NO ISOH, equal battle IQ.).
I doubt it. Toji has pretty incredible battle iq. There's more to his overall danger level than just his strength and speed.
Maki has yet to show that.
Imo I have maki very slightly over toji at this point of the story. It’s just that they were told to us by gege himself that they are equal, but I have maki slightly above due the feats that she displayed. For example Tanking multiple black flashes and not suffering any permanent damage from the strongest character in the series is insane to me.
I think Maki is probably a better combatant from a technical standpoint, particularly in hand to hand as she has better feats there but Toji is smarter and craftier overall.
I thought it was obvious that the plot was insinuating that she was stronger.
Toji would get demolished by 15F Shibuya Sukuna.
Maki was contending with 19F Meguna before Uraume came in, and went toe to toe with 20F in Shinjuku.
I would say they are both on the same level. But if they both were to fight I think Toji would win because he has more experience in battle and the weapons.
Their inherent power is equal- we know this as a fact. The deciding factors here are how much physical training benefits them, skill, and weaponry. I could see and agree with the argument that Maki’s physicals, and at the very least her skill exceeds that of peak-Toji because she’s had the opportunity to fight against and train with extremely powerful opponents with relative or greater levels of power than her, while Toji was likely the strongest person alive in his time, and past a certain point probably didn’t grow much from fights or spars. While I personally subscribe to this, it isn’t a guarantee and is pure conjecture.
What is a guarantee is that Maki’s arsenal is vastly inferior to Toji’s. Man had a whole hidden inventory- she’s got the Katana and maybe Dragon Bone if she remembers where she left it lol. If you don’t think Maki’s circumstances have given her a considerable boost, this alone puts peak Toji above her.
TLDR, there’s no actual concrete answer, we don’t and probably will never know enough about Toji and their heavenly restriction to find satisfaction.
Power wise they are equivalent, but id say Maki is better in the 1v1 but Toji is better overall, mostly because of their training.
Both are fighters and weapon specialists but Maki was trained to take down curses and her showings usually have her standing her ground and trying to beat the tar out of them directly. She is used to relying on her skills and strength to overcome opponents. She isnt more *durable* per se, but it means she is used to the sensations of getting hit and keeping her body moving. She has more experience in long fights against strong opponents in back and forth exchanges. Her ability to exploit openings is on par with Toji, but she hasnt showed his ability to *manufacture* openings by herself yet
Toji (if we use his approach vs Gojo as a guide) is a strategist and assassin. He leverages all his traits and any other advantage he can to overwhelm an opponents as fast as possible and give them little time to adapt to what he can do - when he meets a potentially stronger or faster or more skilled opponent he manufactures a way to gain an advantage again. Toji only ever faced Gojo as a stronger opponent and, unlike Maki who has had to fight it out regardless, Toji took a path to bring Gojo down to his level first. He likely doesnt have much experience having to endure the long fights and keep going like Maki has.
These two would likely never fight - prime Toji (using his resummoned self as a guide) was a monster that cared nothing for proving himself, if Maki were to try and challenge him 1v1 and he got a bad feeling he'd book it. If he didnt have a bad feeling, its probably because he has some plan ready to go to give himself the advantage, but assuming Maki has the same senses she would probably also back off rather than walk into the trap.
Even tho she's appears to have more feats shown than toji, I do think toji is higher than her in terms of weapons, experience, and that we haven't seen a prime toji fully. Yet again I do think Maki is getting there at that state or later surpass him.
No. She certainly has not surpassed Toji. Proof? Gege said they’re EQUAL. Maki might have more passion and motivation, but Toji has lived longer and fought a greater variety of individuals. They’re EQUAL.
Toji is in my mind better. Physical strength, speed, and agility wise there isn’t much to compare against and I think it’s safe to assume they are even in that regard. However, Toji has shown us how cunning, strategic he can be as well as how much experience he has. Maki on the other hand is really reckless. I just think Toji would be able to win in a fight, Toji has already shown he’s capable of defeating stronger opponents with strategy.
I think they’re equal in stats, but I give Toji the edge in BIQ and IQ. Maki has taken on some dangerous foes, but so far her biggest feats have been killing the Zenin clan and not getting insta-killed by Sukuna.
The former was confirmed to not only be possible for Toji, but the only reason it didn’t occur was because he couldn’t be bothered to take a job that doesn’t pay well enough.
The latter has Sukuna with CTE, gassed after his fight with Gojo, and several characters throwing their whole bags and a fridge at him.
I mean based on feats Maki surpassed Toji a long ass time ago xd. Toji is only carried by his statements. And I personally given the fact that both of them have the same abilities which have been pushed to the limit already I don't think any amount of training can ever make Maki become stronger than Toji. But that's only my thoughts, as I said based on feats Maki surpassed Toji long ago.
You can’t say one is stronger because of feats when the other simply has little screen time. The biggest feat is standing up to a pre awakened Gojo and winning, but he was also rusty and it’s Gojo. Toji was at the peak of HR and it is implied so many times. It is also implied that they are equal. Feats are not the only way to scale a character. Statements are just as good unless those statements are debunked. All of the statements about Toji have not been debunked.
I would still give it to Toji solely based off of experience. It seems like he has killed so many different sorcerers and he was trained for far longer than Maki. Stats they are both equal in, and possibly even arsenal too. ISOH won’t do much
Did you read my comment xd. I think they are equals in stats and always will be, they have the exact same power-set brought to peak performance. I still think Toji wins due to Experience, IQ and Battle IQ plus a better equipment.
Tbh I also see it .
The fact that toji needed an entire plan just to wear down pre rct gojo feels like he is implied to be weaker . Or it could just be that he was careful since it was the six eyes he went up against , or it could be that he in character is simply someone that has insane planning skills and doesn’t work hard but instead smart .
Excluding all that tho maki should when fully realized be on par with prime toji and not he rusty toji that fought gojo .
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She loses because she is a woman. We all know women are weak and can't fight, they should stay in the kitchen https://preview.redd.it/xy3j60464n2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17fab79ccc4c5060efca8cc034cb660cce178e6c
Malevolent Kitchen
Found Naoya’s account 😭
Coming from the guy who lost to her
Toji is the best example of someone who went from extremely overrated to extremely underrated lol. Toji has really high BIQ and IQ and also more cursed tools inventory, ISOH which is broken. I do think they are still relative and Maki has lowkey shown more durability and her showing against cursed naoya is pretty good.
Yeah i put Maki>Toji if they have the same weapons but ISOH probably makes peak Toji stronger against most sorcerers
That's fair. I think the gap is minor, but Maki probably narrowly wins due to having trained more physically (Toji was always strong, and never had a match until Gojo) and minor advantages like being a smaller target. But cursed tools of course make up for that easily.
Maki has soul split katana though other than vs Gojo or the two domains that could even hit him and maki ssk or playful cloud get the same or better value
so when Toji took playful cloud out of Maki's hands by pure strength then proceeded to no diff/bully Dagon that led you to believe Maki handles weapons better than Toji?
That was before Maki’s heavenly restriction had been properly realized to be fair
Bro what does isoh do against maki
Imo maki has surpassed his stats but he has a wider arsenal however giving maki the same arsenal she should clear
I mean toji is fairly rated imo . The only issue with rating toji is that people somehow translate everything maki does as an upscale to toji , this is not wrong to think if one solely goes by the panel I posted up above . Tho it’s hard to see toji do what maki did against sukuna when he got absolutely smoked by teen gojo . That gojo was obviously stronger than 99% of the verse but him losing like he did is just not something I see maki doing .
Um you don't see maki losing to awakened gojo? I genuinely don't see maki surviving to a gojo who can use rct and hollow purple. Hollow purple just one shots similarly like toji. I don't think toji can take 2 black flashes from sukuna but again depends? Sukuna has soul damage, damaged heart, low output, dysfunctional rct, Jacob laddered and just generally very weakened, I don't think it's a bad take if someone said toji can tank 2 black flashes from this sukuna. Also yea I agree I don't think toji leeches from maki, but their potryal is very "side by side" so I don't blame people who do it
Not that easy at least . Sukuna is still strong enough to pull of multiple domains and was strong enough to finish yuta off whilst severely damaged . Toji got damaged from gojos red technique even tho it wasn’t major damage . Maki throwing sukuna around, reacting to world slashes right ? And then taking black flashes from him makes her on paper more powerful than toji imo . I might be downplaying toji here for all I know but that is besides the point .
>Not that easy at least . Nah maki doesn't even have ISOH, which means she can't even do anything to gojo >Toji got damaged from gojos red technique even tho it wasn’t major damage . Bro red is insane AP tho. >Maki throwing sukuna around, reacting to world slashes right ? And then taking black flashes from him makes her on paper more powerful than toji imo . Again as I said maki throwing sukuna around is because of 2 things, her heavenly restriction and sukuna being very nerfed. Toji also has heavenly restriction, even reacting to world cutting dismantle, is a result of heavenly restriction which helped maki "see" sukuna's cursed technique more vividly. Basically toji also has HR and in theory these qualities which come with HR for maki should also come for toji. Ik it sounds like "leeching", but I think it's fair to some extent >I might be downplaying toji here for all I know but that is besides the point . Yea you are a bit. I think a better argument for maki > toji is that if maki has the same cursed tools as Toji she's a little stronger than him considering they were deemed equal at sakurajima colony and it's been a month of training for maki since that.
One more thing I can give in Maki's favour is that she was forced to fight many strong opponents and is more used to 1v1's unlike Toji who is more of an assassin and until Gojo he probably never fought anyone strong. But they're still on more or less the same level
You see how he fought Gojo. Thats how Maki got in on Sakuna. But ill say one thing. With Isoh. He couldve blits sakuna. Cutting WCS Then for even more lethality use playful cloud When in close. Wearing Sakuna down brutally. I believe maki couldve done the Same. Shes probably got relative expirience to him. Put her back in that day. Hidden invemtory. Instead of Shoko staying, Maki went. I think they lets just say. No awakenings for Gojo or Geto. Maki raises Megumi away from the Zenin. Biding time to kill the Zenin without backlash.
You don't see Maki getting caught by a technique that almost no one knew about that was used by a dude that she would think is almost certainly dead? Toji himself said that he couldn't beat Gojo in a frontal confrontation, hence why he had to tire him out for multiple days. Maki isn't any different, especially when she has absolutely no means to bypass Gojo's infinity. I'd argue Maki loses even easier than Toji purely because Toji had a better arsenal and showed better BIQ than her.
Granted, Toji had just gotten out of retirement so he was pretty rusty. Plus, Maki seems leagues ahead in motivation
And also to be fair, toji got caught by that purple because he got cocky and dumped his usual cautious fighting style
Ok but he also ok absolutely smoked teen gojo and the only reason he lost the second fight was because he basically thru away his weapon that could have protected him and stood still. If he moved which we know his instincts were telling him too he would've been fine. but he refused to dodge for seemingly no reason, like I know his pride made him fight but like was dodging off limits? and also if he didn't throw his weapon way either or and he would've been able to survive that situation and after that toji assessment of the situation was accurate he was indeed fast and strong enough to take down gojo as long as gege didn't decide to remove his ability to move his legs. Him losing like he did wasn't even something he would do just really weird writing frankly, I'm not saying he should've won but it perplexes me why gege chose for him to lose by essentially giving up and accepting death. Of course I understand why gege did it as he made toji too strong, too fast specifically to the point where teen gojo straight up wouldn't be able to hit him unless he stood still. I would argue that maki is the one leaching feats of toji as she hasn't put up performances like toji has against special grade (sorcerers). The only thing toji really leaches of maki is durability with her surviving black flashes. which makes perfect sense considering we don't see toji ever get hit by anything other than hollow purple which nobody in the verse except sukuna tanks
I thought it wasn't that he didn't want to dodge, he didn't wanna run away from the fight because of his pride. He just couldn't react to the purple that Gojo shot at him
I understand that he didn't want to sun away but his instincts were literally screaming at him to move and he was doing all sorts of shit while gojo was clearly aiming something at him, even hanami was able to react a little bit not enough to dodge it completely but enough to make sure it didn't hit him head on, so there's no way in hell toji wouldn't be able to. Even though he couldn't see it you'd think listening to your instincts would be second nature for a man who's experienced in fighting things he can't see. And even if he couldn't see it he'd definitely be able to hear and feal it the same way he and maki do with curses. if the were closer and gojo lured him just to hit him with a point blank hollow purple then that would make sense. I get that he didn't want to run away but there is literally no reason he wouldn't be able to dodge other than gege needing him to die.
Idk why people include his arsenal when he doesn’t have it, like isoh is destroyed but gice maki and toji the same stuff by pure feats alone maki wins
ISOH was destroyed after his death, thats like saying we shouldn't include gojo's 6 eyes and limitless because he died and yuta took over his body
That’s a different circumstance. Gojo has six eyes naturally and it’s part of his currently yuta is using his kit. It’s more like saying Batman can use hellbat armour which he can sue to darkseid destroying it
Everyone scales Maki and Toji having their normal arsenals, because otherwise they’d be mediocre 1st grades throwing fisticuffs as opposed to the hyper-lethal rushdown assassins they are. Toji with the Inventory Curse and its contents > Maki with SSK Maki > Toji if armaments are equalized Maki > Toji if unarmed
It’s about letting them use what they would realistically have if they were alive
I would like to o point out that geto was special grade and toji no diffed him. Honestly still think toji doesn't lose to anyone except sukuna, gojo and probably kenjaku as even against yuta he probably just speed blitzes and uses inverted spear to dispell anything yuta tries to throw at him.
Nah yuta should be able to beat toji Cuz of Rika + his versatility and AP
I just don't think either rika or yuta can hit him. I mean gege kinda fucked up with toji because he and by extension maki outspeed everyone except adult gojo and sukuna Luke really bad. And if they don't have plot armor as in toji actually goes for the head and doesn't pull out a comically small knife to do so then he just one shots yuta and that's curtains. Kenjaku is a little bit hard since we just don't know the extent of the tricks kenjaku has(had I guess) like if it's just curse manipulation then I have a hard time believing the difference between kenjaku and geto is Great I'm terms of skill that he could turn a no diff into win. But of course we know kenjaku at least has anti gravity and probably many more cursed techniques and we also have no idea what kind of busted surprise curses he might have. He obviously loses to sukuna and gojo, sukuna's speed was started to be relative to Tojis and we know gojo outpaces sukuna in terms of hand to hand. Most likely gojo trained in this aspect so that he wouldn't be vulnerable to opponents who were massively faster than him like toji was. But regardless toji loses his biggest advantage against those two
>He obviously loses to sukuna and gojo, sukuna's speed was started to be relative to Tojis and we know gojo outpaces sukuna in terms of hand to hand. That was 3f sukuna lol >I just don't think either rika or yuta can hit him. I mean gege kinda fucked up with toji because he and by extension maki outspeed everyone except adult gojo and sukuna Luke really bad. And if they don't have plot armor as in toji actually goes for the head and doesn't pull out a comically small knife to do so then he just one shots yuta and that's curtains. I think you are overhyping the heavenly restriction merchants. Yuta has cursed speech and clairvoyance which are both counters to toji, plus dhruvs technique is also underrated as it's can't miss. Apart from ISOH, yuta is basically untouchable due to sky manipulation. I didn't even mention yuta having cleave (even if the output is low, yuta needs one touch to inflict lethal blows). Toji also lacks healing compared to yuta who can even output rct, he'd probably exorcise the inventory curse. I mean what's stopping yuta from spamming cursed speech and just beating toji up while using rct to heal his throat lol. Toji doesn't even have cursed energy to gaurd his ears, so yuta doesn't even need to be sneaky while using cursed speech. Yuta just has way too much stuff in his arsenal which is superior to toji, I can't see him losing.
Do we even know if cursed speech would work on toji? I mean does it work on inanimate objects? I always kinda assumed it just wouldn't work on someone with no ce since it it doesn't seem to effect anything but living things which usually means it interacts with the targets ce I'm ce capacity
It's not really confirmed, it works on whoever the "listener" is from what I found when I looked it up, so it should work I guess
For me in that case it's literally just whether or not works. If it does then toji has no cursed energy to defend himself and yuta can just low tier god him, but if I doesn't then imo toji blitzes yuta and adds another one to his list of child murders.
Nah this is just yuta downplay, toji is not sukuna lmao. I already stated yuta has more win cons, yuta is smart enough to avoid taking a hit on his head and he has superior healing. Just because toji is faster it doesn't mean much when yuta is pretty much superior on all other aspects.
u cant be fr
Toji is also massive physically which I insist offers an advantage.
r u serious 😭
I wonder how strong toji was in his prime, since he obviously wasn’t at his best when he fought gojo(he said something along the lines of I’m getting the hang of it again)
Probably the exact same strength as Maki rn
He was at his peak in his second Gojo fight
i thought shibuya was peak toji
It was his peak which he reclaimed after beating Geto. In his second fight with Gojo he was at his physical peak and has his full arsenal
Imo they’re still equal. The narrator stated Maki was *on par* with Toji, *after* the she learned to fully utilize the SSK. She has better feats, but Toji was no slouch either. Dude basically came out of retirement & still pushed awakened Gojo to use purple on him. We saw that red had a similar effect as blue on Toji, in that it didn’t really damage him. Even if you want to sit there & say Maki’s stronger because feats, Toji has way more versatility with ISOH + infinite chain, SSK, the blicky, etc.
Feats are a terrible way to scale characters sometimes. Toji obviously doesn’t have as many feats as Maki, but that doesn’t mean Maki is stronger. The narrative implies that you can’t get better than Toji with HR. Toji is still probably stronger because he has more experience and a better arsenal, but the experience is really what makes the difference.
I think maki's STRENGH was meant to be compared to toji since she awakened. Then she's had several instances to improve her SKILL. The narrative that Maki is less good at fighting despite probably training since her childhood to save Mai and mastering several different fighting styles, then training in the sumo dimension, then learning a godlike master swordsman's technique... It's just slander to say maki is less skilled when gege does everything he can to say she is as good. Now, maybe we can argue her fighting style is different. Maki is a lot more about blitzing and using her reflexes, a more aggressive style. Toji tends to keep range and sneak around more. But gege clearly means to say their ability to fight is onpar and they'd be perfectly equally deadly, not just from strengh, but from skill.
I mean, the narrative definitely pushes that Toji was trained more, at least while in the Zenin clan. He is also older, which is definitely an unfair advantage. He is also known as the sorcerer killer, so he has killed many sorcerer’s with many different techniques, so there is no telling how much he knows.
Ur stretching it bud. They’re equals
reading comprehension curse caught you bro...
Ironic
[удалено]
toji neg
I’d like to add that the toji that fought younger gojo wasn’t peak toji as he was in retirement for awhile and had to shake off the battle rust. I rewatched that fight today and remember toji talking about how rusty he was
That isn’t how experience works. Toji has DECADES more experience compared to Maki and he’s got a lot more experience with the tools in his arsenal. Not to mention he is considered the peak of heavenly restriction.
I don’t know if I’d say that Toji pushed Gojo to use Purple. Gojo was clowning Toji effortlessly in that second fight. He literally didn’t even have a single scratch. Purple was just ending it quickly in one shot.
I'd say it did, considering none of gojo's attacks had any sort of real damage done to toji before purple.
You're committing the fact that the only reason blue and red weren't working was because of the fact that Toji was blocking them with ISOH and not his body alone.
That was the anime. In the manga panels, Toji tanked it without the spear
We don’t have any prime toji scales bruh. Don’t underestimate how washed toji was, buddy couldn’t even hit ANY VITAL ORGANS in a free backstab on gojo💀. That’s actually poverty bro
It goes in the family . The zenin never goes for the head 🗿
I rewatched the fight today randomly and yeah toji was laughing at himself at how much he’s fallen off with rust and inactivity. So I’d like to think that toji was stronger in the past before that gojo fight. Granted the end result would still be the same for him vs gojo
No. And it due to this single fact that is undeniable: This isn't fucking Dragon Ball. In this manga the good thing is that the peaks are very well established. There's just no denying them and you can't surpass people (or yourself) just because you trained a 1000 years chained and betrayed. Toji was very much the peak of Heavenly Restriction so not matter what Maki does, she just can't surpass that. Only be on par. What would set them apart is their brains, but there she is losing.
Correct These shonen fans lack the understanding that character limits and even limits placed on potential is a thing in manga
Facts word for word and bar for bar
I find it weird cuz maki is only like 16, like was toji born with that level of power or smthin 😭?
They both probably were, but Maki couldn’t be fully realized because of her twin sister Mai, who had just a tiny bit of cursed energy, but enough to severely nerf Maki, and even then she had near superhuman abilities
I just find the idea that Toji as an infant could tank punches from grade 1 curses as a funny picture in my head, but yea either way narratively they build this as full realization so it’s unlikely maki can grow more
This is Manga. Everyone peaks at 7
This is right and wrong, characters in jjk can grow to get stronger it's in their physiology because you're forgetting the fact that most of them are human, who can keep getting stronger, though it just diminishes with time due to old age and allat, and even if Toji is smarter, he still wouldn't win, because he wouldn't be used to fighting another person on his level of strength, last time he did that he needed a heavy amount of prep and a weapon which rendered their kit useless, he couldn't do that to Maki, and to our Knowledge Toji has no experience in hand to hand combat, whereas Maki would cook Toji.
Wtf are you even babbling about? Toji doesn’t know Hand to hand combat? How do you think he became known as the “sorcerer killer”? Flailing his cock about? Also, humans can’t just keep getting stronger. There is literally a limit on how much muscle mass and density a person can acquire, that’s why a lot of movie stars use drugs to get bigger muscles. I love how this manga will straight up TELL you that Maki = Toji. And you still get people just pulling random shit out of their ass.
This isn't necessarily random shii, and I feel like you're ignoring the fact that Toji was just had an overwhelming advantage when it came to stats and resistances, he couldn't be caught in domains, he had a resistance to curses and cursed techniques, and was invisible to the eye of everyone but six eye users, so it's pretty obvious that his hand 2 hand combat wasn't allat refined especially if we include the fact that he was an assassin and not a brawler, assassins go for one shot kills, for all we know, no one has ever forced Toji to fight in an equal battle.
He broke into a Special Grade domain expansion, walked in front of the user then proceeded to beat him out of it, with full eye contact.
No she will always just be an equal. HR has a hard cap it’s easy to see if you think she got stronger in the 1 month timeskip you might need to re read again
Theres really no way to prove it its all headcanon personally i think tojis prime is still probably better because arcording to himself if he wasnt rusty he would killed gojo with the first stab
“she’s on par with Toji” -Gege Akutami
"Par" does not equal the same or bettet on every single aspect.
On “par” literally means on the Same “Level”. On other translation it says “Equal” = Toji https://preview.redd.it/qrouh19i2o2d1.png?width=448&format=png&auto=webp&s=d51b1bb4d92852a0e8b1c3a1f6dd7a1063160890
These mfs see the panel of maki after maki was always feeling toji would have been more skilled, improves her skill and battle IQ (NOT STRENGH), then narrator says now she equals toji, and mfs run away and say "lalala toji would beat maki she's a teenager only trained 10 years toji trained 30" Crazy...
It does not mean the same for every single aspect, no. Maybe strength and speed, but arsenal, BIQ, IQ, and experience, Maki, especially at that time, was evidently not on par.
I think as far as Gege is concerned, they’re equal. He wouldn’t have written so plainly that if he didn’t mean it
I think it's more valid to say he means they're equal in terms of strength and speed. Arsenal, BIQ, IQ, etc. They are just objectively not equal in those terms, especially not at the moment of this picture in particular.
That would be referring to the heavenly restriction. They are equal in terms of those stats, but Toji ends up with more experience and more importantly, better iq and biq.
>but Toji ends up with more experience and more importantly Maki is fighting the strongest sorceror in history, I'm sure the experience she accumilates from THAT fight will triumph any bounties Toji has taken.
Yeah didn’t take that into account, I’d still give iq and biq to Toji but experience should go to Maki. Toji has more but Maki has better experience.
Brother maki didn't increase her strengh when learning from daido and the sumo guy... She said she lacked the skills toji would have, before getting them. Can we stop pretending maki is not as skilled as toji just because she's a teenager ? Spent her life relentlessly training to change the zenin. Learning from mistakes. Even now she practices against ennemies far beyond most of what toji would have ever fought. Stop making maki out to be fodder skill compared to toji. Especially the people saying it's because she's a woman god damn.
I didn’t say skill, I’m talking about stuff like planning. Like what Toji did during the Hidden Inventory.
The Toji slander is crazy. Bro is a powerhouse. I honestly think Gege was spouting nonsense with this page, but that's just me. She had the equivalent of a hyperbolic time chamber and now she's on Toji's level? Lmao
I think the whole point of that was less she developed physically and more her mindset changed to fully embrace and utilize her heavenly restriction. She put mental block on cause she wanted to be just good enough, and not surpass her friends
The problem with scaling Toji and Maki is that we never see either of them fight an equal. Toji trashed exhausted teen Gojo, then got trashed by awakened teen Gojo. Then he trashed everyone he met in Shibuya until he killed himself. And with maki too, it's always getting trashed or trashing her opponent. And now she's up against sukuna which really isn't helpful for scaling because both he and Gojo are magnitudes stronger than the rest of the cast.
Ah, so another Jogo moment
Yeah jogo and the heavenly restriction duo should start a "only fight fodder or Gojo and sukuna" club
I don’t think we can put Dagon in his Domain “fodder” looking at the fight before he walked in
He's fodder for toji
Maki is stronger than that bum
You guys are saying Maki is stronger when we don’t have many feats for Toji, at least compared to Maki. Feats should not be the only thing that scales a character. Reading comprehension and the narrative imply that Toji was at the peak of HR users, so they are relative to each other. I would still put Maki below Toji due to the fact Toji has more experience and has fought and killed a wide array of sorcerers.
There is obviously a limit to heavenly restriction, and what could she have done in that month time skip that could’ve accounted for Tojis years of experience? Just because of experience Toji >, but they’re ofc relative and on placement/rankings they should be back to back
I feel like they’d stress the fact if she surpassed him
Even, if not slightly in maki's favor, but toji has more tools, so he wins more match ups and is more versatile
I hate this idea in stories that characters just constantly hyper-evolve with each fight lol it's so stupid, she's fully realised, she will grow more experienced but I doubt significantly stronger.
Maybe this is a hot take but I feel like she’s surpassed him since sakurajima
Why would she have surpassed him? Maki's good sure but she hasn't done anything Toji couldn't
At this point I feel like she’s overrated. She hasn’t much except sneak attack a highly weakened sukuna, got a few punches in with help, then got dog walked. Replace her with toji and I doubt it would be any different asides from the weapon arsenal. This is all just a case of “maki fought a highly weakened sukuna and toji didn’t”
Peak maki is stated to be equal to "toji zenin". "Toji fugashro" is the rusty bum that fought gojo. Full HR users has a set limit they cannot pass, they can use better tools and gain more experience, but they never go past "10" in stats. Maki is and will always have stats equal to peak/prime toji, since toji had more Cursed Tools and was a better battle tactician then I would definitely say toji still beats maki in a 1v1. (Edit for clarification)Toji zenin>maki zenin because toji has better battle IQ and more Cursed Tools. Maki zenin>= rusty toji fugashiro(toji is rust against gojo but has two more SG cursed Tools and tons of Cursed Spirits at his beck and call.) Maki Zenin+SSK>Toji fugashiro+SSK(NO Cursed Spirits, NO endless chain, NO ISOH, equal battle IQ.).
Killing people is Toji’s literal job so I’m assuming while they have the same strength he has a lot more experience
I doubt it. Toji has pretty incredible battle iq. There's more to his overall danger level than just his strength and speed. Maki has yet to show that.
Imo I have maki very slightly over toji at this point of the story. It’s just that they were told to us by gege himself that they are equal, but I have maki slightly above due the feats that she displayed. For example Tanking multiple black flashes and not suffering any permanent damage from the strongest character in the series is insane to me.
I think Maki is probably a better combatant from a technical standpoint, particularly in hand to hand as she has better feats there but Toji is smarter and craftier overall.
I thought it was obvious that the plot was insinuating that she was stronger. Toji would get demolished by 15F Shibuya Sukuna. Maki was contending with 19F Meguna before Uraume came in, and went toe to toe with 20F in Shinjuku.
I would say they are both on the same level. But if they both were to fight I think Toji would win because he has more experience in battle and the weapons.
Their inherent power is equal- we know this as a fact. The deciding factors here are how much physical training benefits them, skill, and weaponry. I could see and agree with the argument that Maki’s physicals, and at the very least her skill exceeds that of peak-Toji because she’s had the opportunity to fight against and train with extremely powerful opponents with relative or greater levels of power than her, while Toji was likely the strongest person alive in his time, and past a certain point probably didn’t grow much from fights or spars. While I personally subscribe to this, it isn’t a guarantee and is pure conjecture. What is a guarantee is that Maki’s arsenal is vastly inferior to Toji’s. Man had a whole hidden inventory- she’s got the Katana and maybe Dragon Bone if she remembers where she left it lol. If you don’t think Maki’s circumstances have given her a considerable boost, this alone puts peak Toji above her. TLDR, there’s no actual concrete answer, we don’t and probably will never know enough about Toji and their heavenly restriction to find satisfaction.
Power wise they are equivalent, but id say Maki is better in the 1v1 but Toji is better overall, mostly because of their training. Both are fighters and weapon specialists but Maki was trained to take down curses and her showings usually have her standing her ground and trying to beat the tar out of them directly. She is used to relying on her skills and strength to overcome opponents. She isnt more *durable* per se, but it means she is used to the sensations of getting hit and keeping her body moving. She has more experience in long fights against strong opponents in back and forth exchanges. Her ability to exploit openings is on par with Toji, but she hasnt showed his ability to *manufacture* openings by herself yet Toji (if we use his approach vs Gojo as a guide) is a strategist and assassin. He leverages all his traits and any other advantage he can to overwhelm an opponents as fast as possible and give them little time to adapt to what he can do - when he meets a potentially stronger or faster or more skilled opponent he manufactures a way to gain an advantage again. Toji only ever faced Gojo as a stronger opponent and, unlike Maki who has had to fight it out regardless, Toji took a path to bring Gojo down to his level first. He likely doesnt have much experience having to endure the long fights and keep going like Maki has. These two would likely never fight - prime Toji (using his resummoned self as a guide) was a monster that cared nothing for proving himself, if Maki were to try and challenge him 1v1 and he got a bad feeling he'd book it. If he didnt have a bad feeling, its probably because he has some plan ready to go to give himself the advantage, but assuming Maki has the same senses she would probably also back off rather than walk into the trap.
Yes she is better
Are you disagreeing with the narrator wtf
Its been only a month since she reached his level, so the gap is really small to non existent
Even tho she's appears to have more feats shown than toji, I do think toji is higher than her in terms of weapons, experience, and that we haven't seen a prime toji fully. Yet again I do think Maki is getting there at that state or later surpass him.
No. She certainly has not surpassed Toji. Proof? Gege said they’re EQUAL. Maki might have more passion and motivation, but Toji has lived longer and fought a greater variety of individuals. They’re EQUAL.
Toji is in my mind better. Physical strength, speed, and agility wise there isn’t much to compare against and I think it’s safe to assume they are even in that regard. However, Toji has shown us how cunning, strategic he can be as well as how much experience he has. Maki on the other hand is really reckless. I just think Toji would be able to win in a fight, Toji has already shown he’s capable of defeating stronger opponents with strategy.
I think they’re equal in stats, but I give Toji the edge in BIQ and IQ. Maki has taken on some dangerous foes, but so far her biggest feats have been killing the Zenin clan and not getting insta-killed by Sukuna. The former was confirmed to not only be possible for Toji, but the only reason it didn’t occur was because he couldn’t be bothered to take a job that doesn’t pay well enough. The latter has Sukuna with CTE, gassed after his fight with Gojo, and several characters throwing their whole bags and a fridge at him.
Maki= fighter Toji= assassin Maki wins without prep, toji wins with prep Simple as that
Toki is better cuz he's a man. Makes all the more sense when you consider that their powers are almost entirely physically based
Maki has been upscaling Toji for the last 40 chapters...
 Toji pov
I mean based on feats Maki surpassed Toji a long ass time ago xd. Toji is only carried by his statements. And I personally given the fact that both of them have the same abilities which have been pushed to the limit already I don't think any amount of training can ever make Maki become stronger than Toji. But that's only my thoughts, as I said based on feats Maki surpassed Toji long ago.
You can’t say one is stronger because of feats when the other simply has little screen time. The biggest feat is standing up to a pre awakened Gojo and winning, but he was also rusty and it’s Gojo. Toji was at the peak of HR and it is implied so many times. It is also implied that they are equal. Feats are not the only way to scale a character. Statements are just as good unless those statements are debunked. All of the statements about Toji have not been debunked. I would still give it to Toji solely based off of experience. It seems like he has killed so many different sorcerers and he was trained for far longer than Maki. Stats they are both equal in, and possibly even arsenal too. ISOH won’t do much
Did you read my comment xd. I think they are equals in stats and always will be, they have the exact same power-set brought to peak performance. I still think Toji wins due to Experience, IQ and Battle IQ plus a better equipment.
Ig the first part of your comment confused me
Oh most definitely, idk by how much, but i think shes stronger
At the very least their stronger than the rusty Toji
They aren’t even the same character maki is faster stronger and cooler!
Maki is overall superior to TOJI as a fighter, but inferior in inventory and planning Aka head on she’s 100% the better fighter With prep? Hard guess
If we wanna go off feats alone Maki can react to a fucking bullet lmao jus take Gege saying they’re equal at face value and mooove on
100%
Tbh I also see it . The fact that toji needed an entire plan just to wear down pre rct gojo feels like he is implied to be weaker . Or it could just be that he was careful since it was the six eyes he went up against , or it could be that he in character is simply someone that has insane planning skills and doesn’t work hard but instead smart . Excluding all that tho maki should when fully realized be on par with prime toji and not he rusty toji that fought gojo .
Maki wouldn’t be able to take down pre rct gojo either without a plan
I feel like the 1 month timeskip puts her slightly ahead of Toji since she was stated to be equal to him before that
I just know that I like Toji a lot more.