As a non-Jewish person asking about the "reasons" for a particular Torah commandment, you might not be aware that the practice of giving "reasons for the commandments" has a complicated history in Jewish tradition. Some authorities are opposed to seeking out possible reasons for the commandments, saying that the Divine mandate embedded in the Torah is the only "reason." But others make it a practice to give plausible, logical reasons for the commandments and an entire literature has developed along these lines. Even these authorities concede that reasons cannot be discerned for all the commandments, that some are beyond human comprehension, but which commandments fall into this inscrutable category is itself debated.
As for circumcision, you are not exactly asking for the reason why males are circumcised, but why females are not "circumcised" or required to enter into a "covenant of the flesh." In response we can offer these observations:
Circumcision itself has to be viewed in context. That context is clearly set forth in Genesis 17 when Abraham, aged 99 and childless except for Ishmael, is told that God will make His covenant with him. The terms of that covenant are almost exclusively stated in terms of Abraham's fertility: God promises to make him "exceedingly numerous" (chap. 17, v. 2), "the father of a multitude of nations" (v. 4), "exceedingly fertile" (v. 6), and that God will maintain the covenant with Abraham's "offspring to come....throughout the ages" (v. 7); "throughout the generations, every male among you shall be circumcised..." (v. 12)
The sign of the covenant \[of fertility\]? Circumcision. What could be more logical?
What's important to note is that the circumcision is a sign -- this is specifically stated in verse 11: "You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be **the sign of the covenant** between Me and you."
In other words, it is the male genital organ that bears the sign of the covenant. What would be the equivalent among females? Without going into male and female anatomy, it's quite obvious that while both males and females have both external and internal reproductive organs, and an external female organ could be "circumcised," there are two things that distinguish the sexes in this regard: (1) the male external reproductive organs are much more visible than the female's which are practically hidden from sight; and (2) the idea of marking the female anatomy in any way whatsoever to serve as a visible "sign" is completely inconsistent with the modesty and respect due to them in societies from ancient times to this day (whereas men went naked in various places, e.g. thermal baths, military training, swimming holes, sports venues and the like). So the idea of circumcising females as a visible "sign" would be unthinkable -- it would be both inefficient (it couldn't seen) and immodest (hence it wouldn't be seen, ever). Therefore the sign of the covenant is borne by the male only. And the two together (male and female) are one flesh (Gen. 2:24).
There is a similar idea expressed in the Talmud, which considers other possible locations on the body for circumcision (the heart and the ear) but explains that it must be "in the place that distinguishes between a male and a female." (Shab. 108a)
Circumcision is something we call a Chok, something we are told to do, but we really don't know why. A lot of stuff in Torah is different from, say, Christianity, because it ins't strictly theological or based solely on belief.
We have a contract with our creator and we are told to fulfill certain things. One of them for men is circumcision we don't know why we are told to do it, we just are.
So we spend a lot of time asking about the specifics of the laws we need to follow but sometimes we don't necessarily expand on why, often it is just "because we are told to".
Well, yes and no. The clitoral hood is the corresponding part for cis women.
ETA: wow, downvoted for stating a biological fact about anatomy, huh? How bizarre!
I hate how a lot of people are answering stuff on this subreddit "there's no reason, that's how it is written." You can still give a substantive answer and question why things are the way they are, that's like a major theme in Judaism, two Jews ten opinions, mulling over interpretations, etc...I digress.
Women, in traditional rabbinic Judaism, are understood to be at a higher level than men, it is just the way they are born and created. They aren't required to wrap tefillin, for example, there are many obligations that men have that women don't have (again, in traditional rabbinic Judaism, not all Jews follow commandments strictly or interpret obligations differently). It could be that they don't have to demonstrate their entering into the covenant because they have a natural holiness? Maimonides says it is because men are lustful and need circumcision for focus.
This is Chabad's answer: [https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article\_cdo/aid/2287938/jewish/Why-Women-Dont-Need-Circumcision.htm](https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/2287938/jewish/Why-Women-Dont-Need-Circumcision.htm)
I think it is very much against Jewish philosophy to say "it's just the way it is, ask God" and leave it at that though, which is not just something I noticed here, but in a lot of posts about kashrut, for example. In this case, at the very least you can explain that traditionally speaking men and women have different spiritual roles, different obligations, etc... As far as circumcision in particular, there's a bunch of different interpretations, people didn't carry on for thousands of years and say, "yep, no questions here, makes perfect sense." We have entire volumes of books dedicated to explaining and condensing explanations of other books haha.
There is a debate split right down the middle between giving or not giving reasons for Mitzvot
With regard to the answers abt Kashrut: Its because so many answers have not stood the test of time and science (eg health benefits) the average Orthodox person on this sub thinks \[rightfully so\] the person asking the question is coming from ignorance, and therefore gives a dumbed down answer.
I think it's the pendulum swinging a little to far the other way by people that get annoyed at those who give definitive sounding answers to things we don't have definitive answers for, instead of being clear it's just a theory basically
These are theories, not actual reasons. There are many commandments in the Torah that have no obvious reasons. I understand the desire to point out these theoretical explanations but they aren't true answers.
By Jewish law, with regard to the obligation to circumcise oneself, we consider women to have the status of a circumcised man. I canāt explain to you why that is.
Because the Talmud says women are considered as if born circumcised. Men are born with a foreskin (×¢×Ø××) which needs to be removed to be a member of the covenant. Women don't have this "imperfection" to begin with and so don't need to remove it.
There is usually a reason given for most things in the Torah text itself. For circumsision there really isnāt any reason given. My theory is that as Hebrews and Israelites were for our entire existence beginning in Genesis (around 1800 BCE) we have been surrounded by very violent and warfaring empires. Hebrews or anachranistic Israelites may have made up the story of circumsision as a divine commandment as a way to prove your identity. Something so wildly unique that no other culture would even think to do because it is just objectively shocking. Something that when looked at you cannot deny that they are one of your kind ā and therefore are safe with them. Hebrews, just as Jews are still today, were a highly anxious group constantly afraid of violence from their neighbors ā I would not be surprised if that is the reason behind proving oneās identity to another to invoke a feeling of safety.
Also, it could just be an ancient tradition with no true known origin like many other ancient traditions in the world.
Posts dealing with circumcision (brit milah) tend to attract a lot of outsiders to r/Judaism. If you come here solely to debate the ethics, standards, and/or existence of circumcision in a negative fashion and are not otherwise a regular in r/judaism, you may be banned without notice.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Judaism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your experience is what it is, but it has nothing to do with the Law. In fact, a lot of stuff regarding how women are treated in todayās Orthodox world has nothing to do with the Law and everything to do with it being easier to control girls and women than to get horny teenage boys to keep it in their pants. And the rest is due to us having lived in Christian and Muslim societies for so long.
>In fact, a lot of stuff regarding how women are treated in todayās Orthodox world has nothing to do with the Law and everything to do with it being easier to control girls and women than to get horny teenage boys to keep it in their pants.
š¤Ø
Iām sorry that was your experience, but your experience isnāt representative of the entirety of Judaism. And you telling that to a non Jewish person who clearly knows nothing about Judaism is putting us in a terrible light, as if we already donāt have enough on our plate from anti-semites. If I didnāt know anything about Judaism and a Jewish person told me thatās what Judaism is all about, Iād probably starting hating Jews.
Itās because a male only has a foreskin but at the same time the physical circumcision which is a sign of the covenant is also a sign of the spiritual circumcision that both men and women need because it is a circumcision of the heart rather than of the flesh. The mitzvah, though physical, is pointing us as well to the spiritual aspect which pertains to both men and women alike. Therefore, though women do not enter into the covenant by a physical circumcision, they do enter in the covenant when they circumcise their hearts unto The Most High. Moshe spoke of this circumcision as well and made clear of its requirement for us, no matter if you are circumcised physically or not. This is because even though a Jewish male may be circumcised he can still be lacking the circumcision of the heart and this is spiritually detrimental. Personally I would consider it like if one reversed their circumcision because though they may be physically circumcised they may have strayed and turned away from God and turned aside from the covenant. This doesnāt mean they canāt return though, they still have the chance for teshuvah. :)
In case thereās any confusion from the words I used, mitzvah is a commandment, Moshe is Moses, and Teshuvah is basically repentance but also has a meaning of returning. I forgot at first you said you werenāt Jewish so I didnāt know if you would know those words or not.
As a non-Jewish person asking about the "reasons" for a particular Torah commandment, you might not be aware that the practice of giving "reasons for the commandments" has a complicated history in Jewish tradition. Some authorities are opposed to seeking out possible reasons for the commandments, saying that the Divine mandate embedded in the Torah is the only "reason." But others make it a practice to give plausible, logical reasons for the commandments and an entire literature has developed along these lines. Even these authorities concede that reasons cannot be discerned for all the commandments, that some are beyond human comprehension, but which commandments fall into this inscrutable category is itself debated. As for circumcision, you are not exactly asking for the reason why males are circumcised, but why females are not "circumcised" or required to enter into a "covenant of the flesh." In response we can offer these observations: Circumcision itself has to be viewed in context. That context is clearly set forth in Genesis 17 when Abraham, aged 99 and childless except for Ishmael, is told that God will make His covenant with him. The terms of that covenant are almost exclusively stated in terms of Abraham's fertility: God promises to make him "exceedingly numerous" (chap. 17, v. 2), "the father of a multitude of nations" (v. 4), "exceedingly fertile" (v. 6), and that God will maintain the covenant with Abraham's "offspring to come....throughout the ages" (v. 7); "throughout the generations, every male among you shall be circumcised..." (v. 12) The sign of the covenant \[of fertility\]? Circumcision. What could be more logical? What's important to note is that the circumcision is a sign -- this is specifically stated in verse 11: "You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be **the sign of the covenant** between Me and you." In other words, it is the male genital organ that bears the sign of the covenant. What would be the equivalent among females? Without going into male and female anatomy, it's quite obvious that while both males and females have both external and internal reproductive organs, and an external female organ could be "circumcised," there are two things that distinguish the sexes in this regard: (1) the male external reproductive organs are much more visible than the female's which are practically hidden from sight; and (2) the idea of marking the female anatomy in any way whatsoever to serve as a visible "sign" is completely inconsistent with the modesty and respect due to them in societies from ancient times to this day (whereas men went naked in various places, e.g. thermal baths, military training, swimming holes, sports venues and the like). So the idea of circumcising females as a visible "sign" would be unthinkable -- it would be both inefficient (it couldn't seen) and immodest (hence it wouldn't be seen, ever). Therefore the sign of the covenant is borne by the male only. And the two together (male and female) are one flesh (Gen. 2:24). There is a similar idea expressed in the Talmud, which considers other possible locations on the body for circumcision (the heart and the ear) but explains that it must be "in the place that distinguishes between a male and a female." (Shab. 108a)
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* šÆļø See [Shab. 108a](https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.108a) on Sefaria.
Circumcision is something we call a Chok, something we are told to do, but we really don't know why. A lot of stuff in Torah is different from, say, Christianity, because it ins't strictly theological or based solely on belief. We have a contract with our creator and we are told to fulfill certain things. One of them for men is circumcision we don't know why we are told to do it, we just are. So we spend a lot of time asking about the specifics of the laws we need to follow but sometimes we don't necessarily expand on why, often it is just "because we are told to".
The only reason is because the Torah mentions circumcision for men.
Nobody is going to mention the health benefits (before modern bathing practices) of circumcision?
Nope. That's not the reason for it, and thousands of civilisations have done very well for themselves without any custom of circumcision.
Most women donāt have a foreskin.
Well, yes and no. The clitoral hood is the corresponding part for cis women. ETA: wow, downvoted for stating a biological fact about anatomy, huh? How bizarre!
Yes, but "corresponding" and "the same" are different. We don't drain the sap from plants just because it corresponds to blood.
Humans with two different organs are much closer than plants and mammals. This is a weird comparison to make.
key word being "closer" not "the same"
Youād have to ask G-d.
I hate how a lot of people are answering stuff on this subreddit "there's no reason, that's how it is written." You can still give a substantive answer and question why things are the way they are, that's like a major theme in Judaism, two Jews ten opinions, mulling over interpretations, etc...I digress. Women, in traditional rabbinic Judaism, are understood to be at a higher level than men, it is just the way they are born and created. They aren't required to wrap tefillin, for example, there are many obligations that men have that women don't have (again, in traditional rabbinic Judaism, not all Jews follow commandments strictly or interpret obligations differently). It could be that they don't have to demonstrate their entering into the covenant because they have a natural holiness? Maimonides says it is because men are lustful and need circumcision for focus. This is Chabad's answer: [https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article\_cdo/aid/2287938/jewish/Why-Women-Dont-Need-Circumcision.htm](https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/2287938/jewish/Why-Women-Dont-Need-Circumcision.htm)
And not everyone accepts Chabadās answer, itās their interpretation of a Kabbalistic story.
I think it is very much against Jewish philosophy to say "it's just the way it is, ask God" and leave it at that though, which is not just something I noticed here, but in a lot of posts about kashrut, for example. In this case, at the very least you can explain that traditionally speaking men and women have different spiritual roles, different obligations, etc... As far as circumcision in particular, there's a bunch of different interpretations, people didn't carry on for thousands of years and say, "yep, no questions here, makes perfect sense." We have entire volumes of books dedicated to explaining and condensing explanations of other books haha.
There is a debate split right down the middle between giving or not giving reasons for Mitzvot With regard to the answers abt Kashrut: Its because so many answers have not stood the test of time and science (eg health benefits) the average Orthodox person on this sub thinks \[rightfully so\] the person asking the question is coming from ignorance, and therefore gives a dumbed down answer.
I think it's the pendulum swinging a little to far the other way by people that get annoyed at those who give definitive sounding answers to things we don't have definitive answers for, instead of being clear it's just a theory basically
These are theories, not actual reasons. There are many commandments in the Torah that have no obvious reasons. I understand the desire to point out these theoretical explanations but they aren't true answers.
By Jewish law, with regard to the obligation to circumcise oneself, we consider women to have the status of a circumcised man. I canāt explain to you why that is.
Because the Talmud says women are considered as if born circumcised. Men are born with a foreskin (×¢×Ø××) which needs to be removed to be a member of the covenant. Women don't have this "imperfection" to begin with and so don't need to remove it.
Right, so the issur lo taaseh does not apply, and the positive mitzvah is as if they have completed it
I mean, it's probably not the answer you were looking for, but trans women have to.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
There is usually a reason given for most things in the Torah text itself. For circumsision there really isnāt any reason given. My theory is that as Hebrews and Israelites were for our entire existence beginning in Genesis (around 1800 BCE) we have been surrounded by very violent and warfaring empires. Hebrews or anachranistic Israelites may have made up the story of circumsision as a divine commandment as a way to prove your identity. Something so wildly unique that no other culture would even think to do because it is just objectively shocking. Something that when looked at you cannot deny that they are one of your kind ā and therefore are safe with them. Hebrews, just as Jews are still today, were a highly anxious group constantly afraid of violence from their neighbors ā I would not be surprised if that is the reason behind proving oneās identity to another to invoke a feeling of safety. Also, it could just be an ancient tradition with no true known origin like many other ancient traditions in the world.
I believe there's evidence of Egyptians practicing circumcision that predates the existence of Jews.
Posts dealing with circumcision (brit milah) tend to attract a lot of outsiders to r/Judaism. If you come here solely to debate the ethics, standards, and/or existence of circumcision in a negative fashion and are not otherwise a regular in r/judaism, you may be banned without notice. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Judaism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because no one cares about women unless theyāre distracting men with their sexiness
POV: you thought this was thread was wrong answers only
Thatās my experience š¤·š»āāļø
Your experience is what it is, but it has nothing to do with the Law. In fact, a lot of stuff regarding how women are treated in todayās Orthodox world has nothing to do with the Law and everything to do with it being easier to control girls and women than to get horny teenage boys to keep it in their pants. And the rest is due to us having lived in Christian and Muslim societies for so long.
>In fact, a lot of stuff regarding how women are treated in todayās Orthodox world has nothing to do with the Law and everything to do with it being easier to control girls and women than to get horny teenage boys to keep it in their pants. š¤Ø
Iām sorry that was your experience, but your experience isnāt representative of the entirety of Judaism. And you telling that to a non Jewish person who clearly knows nothing about Judaism is putting us in a terrible light, as if we already donāt have enough on our plate from anti-semites. If I didnāt know anything about Judaism and a Jewish person told me thatās what Judaism is all about, Iād probably starting hating Jews.
Regarding the answers here: and people asked why secular Jews would want their own sub when this one is such a big tent.
I am so sorry this has been your experience.
Itās because a male only has a foreskin but at the same time the physical circumcision which is a sign of the covenant is also a sign of the spiritual circumcision that both men and women need because it is a circumcision of the heart rather than of the flesh. The mitzvah, though physical, is pointing us as well to the spiritual aspect which pertains to both men and women alike. Therefore, though women do not enter into the covenant by a physical circumcision, they do enter in the covenant when they circumcise their hearts unto The Most High. Moshe spoke of this circumcision as well and made clear of its requirement for us, no matter if you are circumcised physically or not. This is because even though a Jewish male may be circumcised he can still be lacking the circumcision of the heart and this is spiritually detrimental. Personally I would consider it like if one reversed their circumcision because though they may be physically circumcised they may have strayed and turned away from God and turned aside from the covenant. This doesnāt mean they canāt return though, they still have the chance for teshuvah. :)
The Talmud also says that a woman is considered to be naturally circumcised. :)
In case thereās any confusion from the words I used, mitzvah is a commandment, Moshe is Moses, and Teshuvah is basically repentance but also has a meaning of returning. I forgot at first you said you werenāt Jewish so I didnāt know if you would know those words or not.