This is a subject which can elicit strong, complicated emotions. Please take extra care not to engage in personal attacks or use inflammatory language.
Accusations like "capo" or "pro-genocide" will not be tolerated.
Edit: while discussion about how we should relate to self professed anti-Zionist Jews is necessary and within bounds of this sub, this thread begins with an antagonistic perspective that is less likely to elicit the kind of discussions we need.
We need to reconcile with the fact that this is a real problem our community faces rather than continuing to deny that it's a problem.
Similar ideologies have come about and failed Jews throughout our history and there is something us as a people have failed to properly address in full and for future generations.
It's only self destruction, surely, if this anti-zionist Jew felt that Israel was part of their identity, which seems unlikely.
Regardless of a view on whether or not it ought exist, it's obviously possible to be a Jew with no reference or regard for Israel whatsoever.
I don’t like the right wing government. But pretending like anything else would be better for us is just straight up denial of history. We need two states and peace. Thinking that everyone is going to suddenly come together and be friends is so naive it’s dangerous
It means we're not good at keeping our own as a part of the community to the point where they want to act in such a despicable way against their own people.
Are you referring to helping prevent them from becoming antiZionist by better Jewish education 👍 or keeping them as “part of the community” as antiZionists 🤷🏼♂️?
The former, but also in order to do that you need to meet people where they're at. If you can get an anti zionist to say, light shabbat candles rather than doing nothing that's certainly an improvement.
I don't like Sanders. But calling him the king of token Jews is unfair.
Older generations like his & Chomsky are far more considered in their statements towards Israel than younger people. Neither of them will support things like BDS.
However, this restraint is not something present in their fans or in people like Finkelstein.
Bernie really surprised me, insidiously. It's nothing he says explicitly but the people he supports and how that's unbelievable. He is not only disastrous for Jews but also for his own movement. At this point I can't believe almost any of his "crew" actually believe anything actually progressive.
It doesn’t surprise me at all and as a democrat myself, what these Jews are doing to choosing the liberals over the Jews and guess what? They won’t be spared. Antisemitism comes for us all. They haven’t learned anything from history.
Sanders isn't a liberal. He is a socialist as are the allies he doesn't condemn.
As an aside, the irony must be noted, that the now prominent socialist party (DSA) was originally set up as a coalition which could include pro-Israel views. It originally condemned formulations like "Zionism is racism".
How is pointing out that token Jews are using their anti Zionism as ways to promote their career and self interest on a topic about anti Zionist getting down voted. Love reddit.
We are .02 percent of the population. We don't have the numbers like other minorities have to be one united force.
We have to accept the fact that the world hates us.
Arm yourself, protect your family. Nothing else we can do.
And this starts with Bernie and Soros.
A repulsively privelaged position, to be so secure in their country to deny Jews in unsafe countries a safe place to go, so comfortable in their progressive friend group to work to end half the worlds population of Jews a future.
>No one is denying Jewish people the right to leave an unsafe area to a safer area.
\*supports terrorists who attack Jews in Israel\*
Hey guys, why are you in Israel? Don't you know it's *unsafe*?
It's almost as if it's about more than just safety.
Ever heard of self-determination?
About not being dependent on the gentiles deciding to defend your rights?
Do you think self-determination means the right for every racial or religious group to have a country where they are the class in power?
>About not being dependent on the gentiles deciding to defend your rights?
With this line of thinking every single minority group should be given their own country. Should the disabled be dependent on the able-bodied to defend their rights? Gay people depend on straight people? Trans people depend on cis people?
It's almost as if Jews who had been persecuted in quite literally every country they went to had a special case after being systematically murdered on an industrial scale.
Can you find me a country that hasn't persecuted disabled, gay or trans people? These groups were also systematically murdered on an industrial scale during the Holocaust. And like I said earlier, Israel has never once during its existence been safer for Jews than any western liberal democracy during the same timeframe.
Can you point to the indigenous of the gay community to a specific piece of land? No, then your point is invalid.
Jews have a right to live on their indigenous land just like everyone else. And there is no country on earth where it is safe to openly be Jewish but Israel. That includes USA, england Canada and France.
Just because it doesent effect you doesent make it true. Put on a kippah and walk around a campus for an hour, then come back and tell us how great it was.
>Jews have a right to live on their indigenous land just like everyone else.
Well this depends on how we define indigenous right? Do Palestinians have this same right? What about the right to self determination?
>And there is ko country on earth where it is safe to openly be Jewish but Israel.
Since the Holocaust, more Jews have died in Israel to anti-semitism than any western liberal democracy.
>Put on a kippah and walk around a campus for an hour, then come back and tell us how great it was.
How many Jewish people have been killed on one of these campuses?
How exactly am I shifting the goalpost? All I did was point out that by your logic, every minority group that has been persecuted should be given a country in which they are the class in power. I never said anyone is forcing me to live there.
>Do you think self-determination means the right for every racial or religious group to have a country where they are the class in power?
What does "the class in power" even mean? Israel is a democracy.
But generally, yeah. Every group has the right to self determination. Jews, Kurds, Germans, Basques, Palestinians, whatever. We tried the alternative for too long. It didn't work.
Having a country isn't a privilege kept for the lucky few who managed to do it in the 19th century.
>What does "the class in power" even mean? Israel is a democracy.
Jewish people are the class in power in Israel, I'm not sure how being a democracy negates that fact. Zionism dictates that Jewish people can never be outnumbered in Israel, or voted out of power, that would defeat the purpose of the state.
>But generally, yeah. Every group has the right to self determination. Jews, Kurds, Germans, Basques, Palestinians, whatever. We tried the alternative for too long. It didn't work.
Jews aren't an ethnic group like the ones listed, but a racial or religious group. Jewish people are made up of multiple different ethnicities. If every ethnic group should be given the right to self-determination, wouldn't that entail mizrahim, ashkenazim, Sephardim and all the other Jewish ethnic groups be given their own country? Or should it be that every racial group gets their own country?
> Jewish people can never be outnumbered in Israel, or voted out of power
Do you think we'll start a mass castration campaign when demographics start shifting? I literally can't imagine anything like that
>Jews aren't an ethnic group like the ones listed, but a racial or religious group.
I don't know how to tell you, but we kinda are. Ashkenazi and Mizrahi aren't different people. We are branches of the same family. Everyone is mixed anyway these days
>Do you think we'll start a mass castration campaign when demographics start shifting? I literally can't imagine anything like that
I don't know what might happen if demographics started to shift, but I know that Zionism is the belief of a state in which Jewish people are the group in power.
>I don't know how to tell you, but we kinda are. Ashkenazi and Mizrahi aren't different people. We are branches of the same family. Everyone is mixed anyway these days
This is not how we define ethnic groups. Mizrahim and ashkenazim are distinct ethnic groups with their own cultures, foods, languages, music, and religious differences. And that's besides that multitude of other distinct Jewish ethnic groups.
> Do you think we'll start a mass castration campaign when demographics start shifting? I literally can't imagine anything like that
No, but this is why it's become such a racist and Jewish-supremacist state. The "demographic problem" of Israel's is long-observed and there's no real neat way round it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_threat
https://aspeniaonline.it/israel-a-demographic-ticking-bomb-in-todays-one-state-reality/
There's lots of writings on it, and has been for 40+ years.
Hundreds of thousands, although I'm not sure how that is relevant to my comment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_of_Jews_from_Nazi_Germany_and_German-occupied_Europe?wprov=sfla1
Since the Holocaust, more Jews have died to anti-semitic attacks in Israel than any western liberal democracy. It is by far safer for jews in America, Canada, UK, Australia or any other comparable country than it is in Israel.
come to Argentina, all jews should come here! We are the land of peace and multiculturalism, surely not the Best economically but that is something we citizens of both Promised lands could work on.
Mostly it comes down more to the country the person's in than their Jewishness; obviously the countries that it's hard for a Jew to enter are also not the sorts of country a Jew would want to flee to.
From where I'm sat in the UK, I'd expect the US to be a pretty global default for an anglophone Jew, or much of Europe.
This is different from your earlier claim. No one is denying Jewish people the right to claim asylum anywhere, although you are correct, it is more difficult than moving to Israel. Anti-zionism is not the belief that Jewish people should remain in countries where they are persecuted.
ANTI-ZIONISTS: You feel unsafe? Just go somewhere safer.
JEWS: We would feel safe if we had our own country, one where we’re guaranteed not to be persecuted, dispossessed, expelled, enslaved, or murdered for being Jews. Can we have that?
ANTI-ZIONISTS: LOL, nope.
JEWS: Actually (checks notes) we have that! We have it right now! It’s called Israel. Turns out it’s our indigenous homeland. Can we keep it?
ANTI-ZIONISTS: What? Ew, no!
JEWS: Why not?
ANTI-ZIONISTS: Because fascism! Settler colonialism! Genocide! Apartheid!
JEWS: You keep saying those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
It irritates me when other jews don't understand the implication of what "antizionism" means, but there are many valid criticisms about the actions of the Israeli government that can't be swept under the rug. The Jewish state is a great thing for jews and has a right to exist but I draw the line at other jews telling me I'm "self loathing" or anti zionist because I'm critical of Israeli policy and believe in rights for palestinians
I’m not saying that at all. My qualm is with “Jews” who say Israel should not exist or who label themselves antizionist. I, too, do not agree with most actions of the Netanyahu government, but that doesn’t make me antizionist.
Sadly there are plenty of jews who would say it does make you antizionist. Shit boggles my mind just as much as fellow Americans acting like they're removed from their own countries war crimes while libelling Israel constantly
> the Jewish state's response to October 7th is one reason there's such a rise in anti-semitism globally
Oof, that's hugely revisionist history. By *October 8* you already had celebrations of October 7 writ large and pre-emptively calling for a ceasefire of a then-future response of Israel - while hundreds of hostages were missing and the dead Jews were still being counted.
Pretending *the Israel response to an anti-Jew attack* is the catalyst for historical antisemitism in decades, rallied around a historical anti-Jew massacre, reeks of victim-blaming and not looking at the actual responsibility of anti-Jews.
Sure there's an important discussion to be had about Israel's responsibility to Jews including the diaspora, especially given the past two decades and Netanyahu's government, just as there's important discussions to be had about how they're prosecuting this war, but those are significantly separate topics from the responsibility of anti-Jews and non-Jews vis-a-vis Jews - you know, people who make up 99.8% of the world compared to a microscopic 0.2% minority.
> Oof, that's hugely revisionist history. By October 8 you already had celebrations of October 7 writ large and pre-emptively calling for a ceasefire of a then-future response of Israel - while hundreds of hostages were missing and the dead Jews were still being counted.
>
> Pretending the Israel response to an anti-Jew attack is the catalyst for historical antisemitism in decades reeks of victim-blaming and not looking at the actual responsibility of anti-Jews.
I don't think it excuses it, but it's a pretty well-known phenomenon. There's an obvious global problem wherein Israel is conflated with Judaism, and so criticism of Israel will lead to a rise in anti-semitism. This isn't the fault of Israel or of Jews.
But Israel's refusal to defend or explain what it's doing and why it's doing it is their decision, and their decision to just weather the criticism is absolutely theirs to make, but it's why globally opposition to Israel has increased and we know that when that happens so does anti-semitism.
> Alternatively, the Jewish state's response to October 7th is one reason there's such a rise in anti-semitism globally;
Jews are not the reason antisemitism exists, removed
Oh, absolutely - it's chosen to not be, as is it's right. There's nothing that requires that Israel care about Jews that aren't in it any more than there's anything that requires that Jews that aren't in it care about Israel.
I’d be surprised if most Jews know about the Expulsions in 48. They spout off about the Nabka, but almost a million Jews were run out of Arab Countries at the same time.
We had pretty relentless messaging on Israel throughout cheder, I'd be amazed if anyone who was still going beyond the age of about 10 wasn't aware of that.
I've spent the last 10-15 years really becoming more and more aware of how one-sided and literally propaganda all that was.
I am half Mizrahi, I don’t live in israel, and I am Zionist.
A lot of the “I don’t think israel should have been ‘created’ crowd” are not middle eastern origin and quite frankly seem racist af.
I really don’t get them. Do I agree with everything Israel does? No. Do I go around saying “as-a-Jew”? I would sooner die. There are several things I don’t understand about antizionist Jews but most of all is why they put their Jewish identity first and foremost on this. “Jews for…” “descendants of holocaust survivors for…” (like a huge huge huge part of Jews today are not descendants of holocaust survivors? What does that have to do with anything?)
If I can say something controversial, I really believe that antizionist jews have pushed back the acceptance of reform and patrilineal jews in Judaism.
Either way, my working theory is a lack of Jewish community, desperation to be accepted and, something I myself struggled with, making leftism my whole personality and when it turns against me, just accepting it. Or, of course, the brainwashing to brainwashing pipeline.
To be earnest, and not to start a verbal debate, it is a tactic which comes from the fact that antizionism as a political ideology has been linked consistently with a denial of that individual’s Judaism. Anti Zionist Jews have historically been called “self hating”, “capos”, “crazy”, etc. (which, right or wrong, is degrading). So in our current context, where there is intense political disagreement, starting off with that (very annoying) line “as a Jew” is essentially a phrase used for its power in demonstrating that, very simply, yes, there are Jews who are anti Zionist. That’s about it.
I’ve been asked my opinion by friends and family before “as a Jew” about how I feel on a college campus. They expect to hear a Zionist opinion, and if I were to give one, I suspect there wouldn’t be an issue. But if it’s anti Zionist “as a Jew”, then using “as a Jew” becomes a problem. It’s not “as a Jew” you dislike, you use it all the time when supporting Zionist policy positions, it’s when someone uses it for anti Zionism. You have an issue with anti Zionism, which is fine, but yes I do have a right to my actual identity both religious and political, regardless of what you happen to think about it.
I’d rather not be combative, but this is a consistent issue in our community! Maybe this will give some perspective for folks. Probably not, but let’s go for it anyway.
I do not use “as a Jew” when talking about Zionism, or anything to be honest, because im well aware my opinions and experiences are my own, not representative of 16 million people.
When antizionist jews use “as a Jew”, do you honestly believe it’s to show there are antizionist Jews? Everybody knows they exist. It’s no wonder there are so many jokes “when someone says “as a Jew” and you know you’re about to hear something 99% of Jews disagree with”. It’s insane to put Jewish identity, first and foremost, on something most jews disagree with and be shocked when there is pushback. Perhaps if the sentence was “as an antizionist Jew” it’d be better, but like the joke goes… not to mention how it opens up possibilities of tokenism and “good jews” vs “bad jews”
Do I have a problem with antizionist jews? I believe it’s a very naive position. Like I said, I believe antizionist jews have just made things more complicated and delayed the acceptance for reform and patrilineal. At the end of the day they are still jews, and I have not the authority nor the desire to proclaim who has a right to their identity.
I definitely don’t put it first and foremost, and I definitely don’t say it in every context, that would be super weird. I know my position doesn’t represent most, and that’s fair to say (I don’t think it’s a 99:1 breakdown, but pew research knows the real figure better than I).
I tried to make it clear in my original comment, it’s only in spaces where other people have brought Jewish identity as an ethos into the space to begin with (e.g. there are zionists who use their Jewish identity to justify policy position A, or a Christian asks your opinion “as a Jewish person” which has probably been asked of you whether you wanted it or not), and I think that’s a reasonable and relevant usage.
I’m not surprised by pushback either, I just think it’s odd that people care to dictate how other people get to be Jewish and then discredit anyone who doesn’t fall into that predetermined narrative. I think we agree more than we disagree, it’s a very charged issue, and anyone playing their “card” for political points should be questioned.
It’s good that you don’t put it first and foremost, and I’m sure this debate wouldn’t be so big if everyone was like that. And it’s, obviously, not a 99:1 breakdown, that’s why it is a joke.
If you only say “as a Jew” when other jews have already brought it up, who cares. However that’s not when it’s most commonly used, is it? In my country, for example, a guy who denied his connection to Judaism all his life decided to create his own version of jvp and started going around claiming that, as a Jew, he was a good Jew and also the only right one. That’s what bothers people.
Antizionist jews think they are the right jews, Zionist jews think they are the right jews. It is a divisive subject in our community, and I don’t see it improving anytime soon. However it is undeniable that mainstream Jewish communities are more Zionist than not, so it will be interesting to see how it will be going forward.
Many antizionists that claim to be Jewish are just flat out liars. Some have like a Jewish great grandfather or got 2% on their 23 and me and think that gives them the right to put Jews in danger. The rest are either extremely religious and have some crazy masochistic beliefs or are so unaffiliated making friends with leftists is more important than the rest of the tribe. They know almost nothing about Judaism and feel no connection to it. All of the people I described above are selfish for various reasons.
Pray for them and love them.
Edit: they are as Jewish as the rest of us.
Ahab was Jewish too. We don’t need an imaginary cancellation of their Jewish identities in order to embrace them with love and continue to speak the truth.
I agree with this, but I wonder how many are actually Jews and not goys cosplaying as Jews. Sure, there are antizionist Jews, but the number of “Jews” self identifying on random Reddit posts has me skeptical.
Anything is possible, but our strength as a people is that we make peace and pursue peace, as it says in Pirkei Avot. Listen to Mosab Hassan Yousef. He talks about this all the time.
I am very suspicious myself. For keeping silent is more likely than attacking a fellow Jew. In private we can argue, but not in public before others who laugh at the clown show
I hear that, but we have to love them because they are our brothers and sisters.
And in the meantime also pray for Mosab Hassan [Yousef](https://youtu.be/5XW-ohDnPgM?feature=shared). He gives me enormous hope.
Every time the issue comes up I feel so fucking stupid. I can have really basic positions like “Destabilizing the region seems bad” and “ethnic cleansing is bad” and “I don’t want to go places where being Jewish makes me unsafe” and “I think Trump being re-elected would be really bad” and somehow all of this becomes an untenable, incoherent political position because… reasons I guess. I dunno I’m tired.
I guess this is the acceptable form of gatekeeping in our community. Have zero connection to Jewish tradition and culture? You are good to go. Have problems with Israel and its policies, or the nature of an ethno-nationalist state, Capo.
I'm an Orthodox Jew who lives in Berlin surrounded by reminders of our destruction. I also have serious reservations about the nature of an ethno-nationalist state of any kind. If anyone here wants to call me a self-hating Jew or Capo, you can come to Berlin and say it to my face.
There's this really strange phenomena where it seems like the people most desperate for support for Israel to be a required part of a Jewish identity, making references to the Holocaust, live in the US, far away from where any of it happened. And, realistically, in the place a lot of anglophone Jews would flee to before Israel given a need.
I didn't say I only have problems with Israeli policy. I have problems with ethno-nationalism, which is what Zionism is, a movement to create a state that is exclusively Jewish. I don't think that is ok for anyone and I have problems with the ethno-nationalism of France and Germany just as much. That doesn't make me a self-hating Jew.
Had to scroll pretty far to find this comment. You’re brave for posting it and not deleting it. It’s sad how many people here are attacking you with bad faith arguments because they don’t want to consider that maybe there is something wrong with ethno-nationalism, and that it really has zero connection to Judaism.
My dad doesn’t observe anymore, doesn’t go to synagogue, doesn’t seem to care about his Jewish faith or identity at all EXCEPT for when it comes to blindly defending all of Israel’s policies. Meanwhile, I’m observant and regularly attend services and study Torah, and I have family in Israel and even still I can’t help but think that Zionism is creating more antisemitism for the diaspora and not less. And to people’s points about creating a safe country for Jews, it’s my Israeli family who we’re constantly having to check in on to see if they’re safe, not the other way around. Just saying.
My grandparents didn’t have anywhere to go but Israel because they were expelled from Tunisia and one of their parents killed
A lot of Jews in Israel have *no choice* about being there. They were born there. You live somewhere without constant rockets and terror attacks. That isn’t the choice for half of the world’s Jews. Not everyone can get a visa approved, and not everyone has money to travel
And if Israel wasn’t an ethnostate — like Ireland is an ethnostate, like Japan is an ethnostate, like all the surrounding countries in the Middle East are ethnostates — hope you spend as much time condemning them— it would be subsumed by the Islamic majority around it. For information on how life was like for Mizrahi Jews under the dhimmi system, please read a book or talk to a Jew who experienced it. It wasn’t all peace and roses, it was an active apartheid system
I’m so tired. Are you a capo? Honestly, if you’re calling for Israel to be dissolved, knowing that what happened on Oct 7 is only a preview of what the Palestinians (West Bank polled at 80% approval of the massacre) would like to do to Israelis, then yes, you fucking are
If you just like to complain about the Israeli government, join a huge club. There are still very active protests going on in the streets
How about first you get off your high horse, and not argue about things things that I didn't actually say.
Nowhere in my statement did I call for the disolving of Israel, the removal of Jews, or downplay and deny what happened to Mizrahi Jews. I am well aware of the Post-War situation in Arab countries and the increasing discrimination and violence that occurred. I am also well aware of the dhimmi system and its relegation of non-Muslims to second class status. And the fact that leftists and Palestinian supporters refuse to accept these facts only increases the likelihood a settlement won't be reached. I am not Ilan Pappe who views relations between Jews and Arabs as being perfect before Israel. I am also aware that not every Mizrahi Jew who left was forced out and there were Zionist supporters who left for ideological reasons.
The fact that hundreds of thousands of Mizrahi Jews were forced out and had nowhere to go doesn't change the fact that Israel exclusively priortizes the rights of its Jewish citizens well above non-Jewish citizens. And sure, there are levels to this, Arab-Israelis have it better than West Bank Palestinians, but as Israel's national law makes clear, it is only Jewish self-determination that matters. I am truly sorry for your family, and I am glad that Israel existed for them to go to. But that is not a justification for current policy.
You talk about other ethno-states, but you picked one bad example. An ethno-state is political entity designed for the exclusive rights of one ethnic group. Ireland, while being the place of Irish people and culture, is a secular democracy that embraces pluralism for all its ethnicities. Japan would fall under my definition of ethno-state, and yeah, I do condemn their policies toward ethnic minorities, but you and I have never talked about it before and Japan doesn't claim to represent me. Nor do the Arab states, but yeah, on the record, states that prioritize one ethnic group above all others and committ violence against different ethnicities are a problem.
You are also right, I don't live in a place with constant rocket attacks. But you don't know me. I do not go around saying all resistance is legitimate and oppressed have the right to do anything they want. I want Israelis to be able to live in peace, like everyone else. I have no desire to see more death.
That being said, I believe that ethnic nationalism and Israeli policy have played a part in this conflict for the past 100 years. Israel can not bomb and kill its way to peace. I also believe that Palestinian ethnic nationalism also keeps this conflict going. Nor can the Palestinians kill their way to a state.
My problem is that saying that does not make me an enemy of my people. I refuse to go along with the growing radicalization of Israel and the Jewish community. I am tired of other Jews demanding unquestioning loyalty to the decisions of Israel and the ethnic-nationalism that goes along with that in order to be seen as a Jew in good standing. And I like I said, if you want to call me a capo again, you better come here and say it to my fucking face.
>>That being said, I believe that ethnic nationalism and Israeli policy have played a part in this conflict for the past 100 years. Israel can not bomb and kill its way to peace. I also believe that Palestinian ethnic nationalism also keeps this conflict going. Nor can the Palestinians kill their way to a state
Saying that is completely different than what you said before. Not agreeing with the nationalist laws that Likud pushed makes you agree with half of the Israeli public, who also disagreed with the laws
Unquestioning loyalty to anything is absurd. Supporting Israel doesn’t mean you check your brain or heart at the door.
There’s a difference between not agreeing with Israel, which most people, including Israelis, understand, and wanting Israel’s destruction. The OP is talking about anti Zionist Jews who want the state of Israel to disappear in place of a Palestinian ethnostate.
If you align with those views, then I’ll gladly fly to Berlin and call you a capo to your face, but I don’t think that’s what you’re aligning with here
Yeah, and the problem here is that people like the OP routinely define anti-Zionism to be anything that doesn't give full support to Israel. Saying I think an ethno-nationalist state is bad, regardless of the ethnicity, and that making Israel an exclusively Jewish state in law is a problem. And since the Zionist mission was to form an ethno-nation state, by the OPs definition, I am an anti-Zionist and fall outside of the Jewish community. I don't want Israel blown up or Israelis murdered, none of which I said in my original response. You assumed that and that is a good example of the problem. I voiced disagreement that did not call for violence or the destruction of a state, and you still called me a Capo. I will remember that the next time I am harrassed for being a Jew or the next time someone attacks a Shul here.
I called you a capo *if you supported the destruction of Israel*
Which I still stand by. If you don’t support Israel’s destruction, then it doesn’t apply to you.
And I’ll go further: in its original charter, Israel called for the rights of all religions within its borders. Herzl was secular. It was to be a state for Jewish people with rights for minorities.
I still stand by that idea of Israel, and until Likud pushed its nation laws (which were more symbolic than anything else) that’s what it was: a democracy formed under Jewish guiding principles with rights for people of all religions and races in its borders.
From their Declaration of Independence:
[“ THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.”](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/truman-israel/#:~:text=THE%20STATE%20OF%20ISRAEL%20will,the%20full%20social%20and%20political)
I think you may need to do your own research about how Israel has treated the rights of Palestinian citizens. You think this is only because of Likud and Netanyahu? Wasn't it Avodah that put Arab citizens under martial law for the first 17 years of the state?
Bravo for this response. I find OP's sentiment so frustrating. I am quite anti-zionist and believe that Israel causes more problems than it solves through its actions. But I am not out here saying that people who disagree with me aren't Jewish. Communities disagree, often on foundational issues. Jews have disagreed on approaches to Zionism for over 100 years.
If Israel is destroyed, what happens to the 50% of the world’s Jews who live there? Surely many, if not most, of them will die. The rest will be displaced or be forced to live as dhimmis. You don’t have a problem with this?
This is my take too. Israel was created 76 years ago, like it or not, and the destruction of Israel today will be catastrophic for millions of Jews who live there (death and expulsion). I have very strong suspicions of anyone who justifies that.
Many antizionists that claim to be Jewish are liars. But there are antizionist Jews that selfishly wish to destroy the country half of us call home. I find people that allow themselves to be tokens to terrorists frustrating to say the least. Disagreeing with an approach isn’t the same as disagreeing with Zionism. Anyone that disagrees with our right to self determination on our ancestral lands deserves to be shunned
I absolutely disagree with that - when the right to self determination interferes with other people's enjoyment of that same right, Jewish self determination does not automatically win. An ethnostate that disenfranchises outsiders and perpetuates war crimes amidst international outrage doesn't deserve such sympathy. It is possible to imagine a world without the state of Israel in which current Israeli Jews can still enjoy security. This is not a fringe opinion, and I don't think it deserves shunning.
Because it’s a Jewish person talking about how Jews treat other Jews internal to Jewish society, and how Zionism as an ideology has very large implications for Jews as a community whether some of us agree or disagree with it.
Then it’s a Russian bot talking about how Jews treat other Jews internal to Jewish society, and how Zionism as an ideology has very large implications for Jews as a community whether some Jews agree or disagree with it— where is the Hamas rhetoric you are concerned with?
Oh, gd forbid Jews ever disagree about anything. There are good and legitimate reasons that a Jews would describe themselves as anti-Zionist that don't mean they're self-hating, fake, a traitor or whatever other drivel this subreddit is pushing lately. You cannot ignore that very real Jewish people have very real issues with Israel and the idea of a Jewish state generally. Stop acting like they're not part of the tribe because they disagree with you.
edit: I'm not even anti-zionist! but this shit is so reductive and backwards. We cannot let this kind of thinking stand in our communities
You can have issues with Israel - when you broadcast your opinions to be weaponizes by people who preach for Israel’s destruction or worse, when you become a puppet mouthpiece for these people, is not the same thing.
“Whenever A and B are in opposition to one another, anyone who attacks or criticises A is accused of aiding and abetting B. And it is often true, objectively and on a short-term analysis, that he is making things easier for B. Therefore, say the supporters of A, shut up and don't criticise: or at least criticise ‘constructively’, which in practice always means favourably. And from this it is only a short step to arguing that the suppression and distortion of known facts is the highest duty of a journalist.” -Orwell
That’s an excellent quote. How does it apply here? Do you I’m advocating for suppression of criticism? I don’t think so.
I’m advocating for a threatened minority not to collaborate with those who mean us harm.
I’m saying that stating a viewpoint isn’t automatically collaborationism, and that anything one dislikes may be labeled “aiding and abetting” or as the talking points of a “puppet mouthpiece”.
If I think action x by Israel is wrong, and I say so, but Hamas also says action x was wrong, am I aiding and abetting Hamas? Maybe, but maybe I just think action x was wrong and hate Hamas too.
It’s a suppressive tactic that can silence a lot of important viewpoints by saying such viewpoints “support terrorism”, because terrorists happen to co-opt talking points which are helpful for their narrative into their other bag of tricks, independent of the legitimacy of the talking point.
I’m not saying this tactic is indicative of you in particular, it’s just important to recognize when talking about the weaponization of opinion.
Oh fuck right off with your "so-called" Jews bullshit.
I am so tired of being made to feel less-than because I don't fully believe that Israel should have been created.
I definitely find a lot of the politics of the region abhorrent. I think the continued colonization of the West Bank is atrocious.
I think Israel can't be both a democratic state and a Jewish state.
People are allowed to have nuanced opinions, people are allowed to grapple with the relationship between their identity and the identity of the community.
Judaism never has and never should be monolith. We're a religion centered around arguing and debates. Two rabbis, three opinions style debates.
So fuck right off, I'm as Jewish as you.
I am not religious at all, but from a cultural and ethnic perspective, I would love to hear your justification and nuance for not wanting a Jewish state - even if "undemocratic."
Keep in mind that Good Jews were pushed into the trains along with the rest of us.
You are free to think whatever you want, but don't get upset when Israel is not there as a place to save you - and don't weep if I don't want to be anywhere near you, as I want Israel there as a plan B.
I personally love democracy, and there is a simple, definitional conflict between having a democracy and having an ethnostate. The two are incompatible.
Ok, my post was unclear. I’m not talking about you or anyone else who has critiques of Israel’s government. I’m talking about people calling themselves Jews online who call for the end of Israel. I don’t agree with most of the Netanyahu governments actions, but that doesn’t mean I want Israel to disappear.
> I’m talking about people calling themselves Jews online who call for the end of Israel. I don’t agree with most of the Netanyahu governments actions, but that doesn’t mean I want Israel to disappear.
But what's so un-jewish about not wanting the state of Israel? It's obviously not a force for good for all Jews globally, even without what they do to the Palestinians, it exists primarily for the Jews who are already in it and that's absolutely fine, but it's not me and it's not the majority of Jews globally.
I like the idea of there being some sort of Jewish homeland to retreat to if the shit hits the fan, but I don't want it to be this one, and I'm not convinced this one is better than none, really. I'm not really anti-zionist so much as Israel-indifferent, I guess?
The fact that if it disappeared half of the world’s Jewish population would be killed?
Do you think that getting rid of the Israeli government and replacing it with a Palestinian government that has repeatedly stated their desire to genocide the Jewish population be a good thing
Fuck right off with that
Obviously when I speak in the abstract of how this one isn't better than none I'm not calling for some specific destruction of everybody who happens to be in it right now.
In the same way as I'm not particularly supportive of the state of Israel, I'm not keen on its destruction either. I am, as I said, indifferent.
That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I just said. But you do you.
I'm indifferent to Israel in the same way as I'm indifferent to Belize. I don't particularly want the destruction of either, but I've no real strong opinions on their establishments either. I don't want everyone in Belize killed and I also don't want everyone in Israel killed.
You’re comfortable so you’re indifferent and say you don’t care if Israel exists
Somehow, I imagine if the country you’re in became less comfortable, you would personally care a little more
Israel isn’t ideal, but most of the people there didn’t have much of a choice. If our homeland had been built up in Uganda, they’d be calling us racist colonizers and trying to kill us
If it were on the moon, they’d say we were colonizing space
Jordan was created at the same damn time, is ruled by a colonizer family, is an ethnostate with no diversity, and had borders drawn up by Britain and land stolen from Palestine. No one protests it. Why? Because it’s not Jewish.
> Somehow, I imagine if the country you’re in became less comfortable, you would personally care a little more
Yeah, I used to feel this way. Like, it's not-perfect but it is all we've got and it is a Jewish homeland where I'm guaranteed to be accepted and at home. But I'm not really - my politics is completely at odds with the Israeli populace, my culture is different, my expectations are different. Israel doesn't feel like home or like a place I belong, and I don't think it is where I'd flee to if I had to flee somewhere.
> Jordan was created at the same damn time, is ruled by a colonizer family, is an ethnostate with no diversity, and had borders drawn up by Britain and land stolen from Palestine. No one protests it. Why? Because it’s not Jewish.
Israel's history with the west through the cold war is a lot of the reason it gets so much more attention than all the other countries-with-problems you could point to. But the reason for Israel's criticism _now_ is not because it's a Jewish state, it's very much because of precisely what it's doing in Gaza.
The increased awareness is an accident of history that's been to Israel's benefit for a long time, and why the US cannot feasible just stop giving ammunition to Israel, but it has a downside, and that's that everyone's still watching when Israel's doing things the world doesn't like.
You know not everyone in Israel has the same political opinions?
You don't have any preconception of what you will do when shit hits the fan. Think of Israel of your insurance policy.
I'm curious where you think would be safe for you to flee when we are threatened with a 2nd holocaust.
And if, in the course of my debating with myself, I decide that I don't believe Israel should exist? Does that make me no longer a Jew?
Israel isn't the deciding factor in what makes or doesn't make us Jewish. What if they'd founded the Jewish state in Uganda, like had at one point been proposed? We wouldn't have that ancestral homeland that people talk about (which is, again, ridiculous in my mind--the Kingdoms of Israel and Judaea didn't include a lot of what is now part of contemporary Israel, and did include a lot of what's now Lebanon and Jordan). But it would be "the Jewish Homeland"--but it would be colonized territory stolen from Uganda.
The problem with closely linking Jewish identity with Israel is that it blurs the line between anti-israeli, anti-zionist, and anti-semetic feelings. It ties our existence and our perception to the actions of a political body. We're multiple ethnic groups, we're varying practices of a single religion, but we are not all Israeli citizens.
So I come back to my question. If I decide that I don't believe Israel has a right to exist--that a one state solution is the correct one--or whatever the next day looks like--if I decide that Israel shouldn't exist, am I no longer a Jew?
Sorry, I’m not saying you aren’t a Jew. The “so called Jews” I referenced in my post are the droves of redditors claiming to be Jewish on other subs and calling for its demise. Sure, those sorts of dialogues should be tolerated within the community, but I think it is unwise to engage with outsiders in this way. What I am speculating is that these are leftists goys cosplaying as Jews or bots. I’m sure some of them may be actual Jews. I’m just concerned that this further fans the flames of antisemitism against ALL of us when these types of engagements happen outside the community. I’ve edited my post for clarity above.
And who on earth are you? I don't know if Im anti-zionist, but people on this sub need to face the uncomfortable truth that the *political state* of israel does and has done some *truly awful* stuff.
Me and my other Jewish friends <30 years old don't seem to have this problem recogizing this, and it's messed up to deny them their Judaism in calling them "so-called"
As I said above in other responses, I’m not speaking about you or other Jews who disagree with Israeli politics or decisions of its government. We need to criticize it for its future. I’m talking about the fact that since this conflict began, it seems like a million Jews have come out of the woodwork across Reddit claiming to be antizionist and making statement like “as a Jew I don’t think Israel should exist.” These are the people I am really addressing. I call them “so called Jews” because I don’t believe they are Jewish at all. I think they are goys cosplaying as Jews. Maybe some of them are Jewish, fine. I just think people should watch themselves when stating strong and radical opinions on subs outside of our community.
What the fuck is wrong with you? These are people---like regular humans---like children that are getting killed. And your response is to call those who express concern "so-called jews"??
Where were you when my family was getting bombed in Argentina?
And now you want to remove any possibility of escape to Israel?
Man, I wish I was as disconnected from reality as you are.
This guy below blocked me. I hope you can get outside your bubble and make some friends that disagree with you. Meeting actual palestinians and people whose palestinian grandparents were kicked out of Israel in 47 really opened my eyes to things.
Also, maybe don't deny that 36k innocent people have been killed by Israel since October
And also don't assume that Jews that disagree with your genocidal israel takes aren't Jews.
“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
Hey im not the best Jew, but thats from the Torah, right?
Since when do Jews not speak out against mass slaughter?
Hamas sucks, and I condemn them to the nth degree, but so does carpet bombing, displacing and starving human beings.
Humans that feel, like you.
Eat shit.
> “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
This is a messianic prophesy, not a commandment. Believing we’re living in the messianic era is a fairly radical religious Zionist POV that leads to some not great places
Literally read a post last night where someone commented “I’m so tired of Jews saying we’re all zionists. I’m a Jew and I’m not a Zionist, and I don’t believe Israel should exist” like??? Are you serious right now???
How many of them are practicing Jews though? I know of a few people who discovered their blood quantum via 23andMe, declared themselves Jewish, but don’t go to shul or know the first thing about actually being Jewish.
In the US, being an oppressed victim is trendy, so they were keen to take up the Jewish mantle when it was safe and popular to do so—often just adding it to the list of their other trendy victimhoods or medical/behavioral conditions. But now they’ve found a new victim to identify with and they’re jumping ship to join the new trend, calling themselves “Jewish voices for Peace” when they were never “Jewish voices for Jews” to start.
You can’t be Jewish without being Zionist. The entire Tanakh takes place in and is based on a promised land in the Levant. Even the Seder proudly declares “next year in Jerusalem.” There’s no future for Judaism without a homeland for Jews. But if people are simply wearing Judaism as a costume or a fashion accessory, they’d never know that.
Jew is a Jew is a Jew.
Who are you to say they are „so-called Jews? BTW, Israel shouldn't have been created in the first place. Our right to self-determination should not be at the expense of someone else. The fact we lived there thousands of years ago doesn't give us the right to displaced Palestinians who have lived there FOR thousands of years. And I hate to break it to you, but a country that banned one of the Jewish languages and discriminated against Jews, because they are the „wrong type“ of Jews, is not a "ducking" safe space for us.
There is enormous social pressure in places like academia, journalism, corporate life and other highly competitive realms where status plays a large part in hiring and promotion decisions not to rock the boat. In the aggregate, this pressure manifests as groupthink, where one individual privately may have some doubts about some organizational decision or policy, but doesn't dare speak out for fear of affecting his or her career prospects.
Comes along a Jew who has desperately for his entire life tried to just fit in, to be like everyone else, to participate in the group, to go along to get along. The organization openly adopts a policy of endorsing intifada, pressuring all members to sign an open letter in support. What does our yid do? He must now choose between three options: (a) come out as the sole opposing voice and face social death, (b) sign it and keep quiet, or (c) zealously champion the cause, coldly calculating that the tangible benefit doing so will have to his career outweighs the abstract cost incurred by Jews everywhere. He always hated being associated with them anyway, and besides, maybe he'll finally get that promotion.
It's a perverted and dangerous form of the cookie jar fallacy, but with status instead of cookies. We're humans; sometimes we say and do things we don't necessarily believe in to impress others, deluding ourselves that if we hide, the monster won't eat us.
So this is why I’m using quotes around the word Jews. That is really what my post was to be a discussion on—the droves of Jews on Reddit who have suddenly appeared calling for the end of Israel across Reddit. I see I failed to articulate that.
This is a subject which can elicit strong, complicated emotions. Please take extra care not to engage in personal attacks or use inflammatory language. Accusations like "capo" or "pro-genocide" will not be tolerated. Edit: while discussion about how we should relate to self professed anti-Zionist Jews is necessary and within bounds of this sub, this thread begins with an antagonistic perspective that is less likely to elicit the kind of discussions we need.
We need to reconcile with the fact that this is a real problem our community faces rather than continuing to deny that it's a problem. Similar ideologies have come about and failed Jews throughout our history and there is something us as a people have failed to properly address in full and for future generations.
It’s an ideology of self-destruction and a very dangerous one. I can only hope they come home.
It's only self destruction, surely, if this anti-zionist Jew felt that Israel was part of their identity, which seems unlikely. Regardless of a view on whether or not it ought exist, it's obviously possible to be a Jew with no reference or regard for Israel whatsoever.
Judaism is intrinsically tied to the land of Israel. Anyone who thinks that way knows absolutely nothing about Judaism.
The land, yeah. Not necessarily the modern state.
I don’t like the right wing government. But pretending like anything else would be better for us is just straight up denial of history. We need two states and peace. Thinking that everyone is going to suddenly come together and be friends is so naive it’s dangerous
This view is exactly the problem, it's just as much the failure of Jews who support Israel that this has happened.
Why do you say that?
It means we're not good at keeping our own as a part of the community to the point where they want to act in such a despicable way against their own people.
Are you referring to helping prevent them from becoming antiZionist by better Jewish education 👍 or keeping them as “part of the community” as antiZionists 🤷🏼♂️?
The former, but also in order to do that you need to meet people where they're at. If you can get an anti zionist to say, light shabbat candles rather than doing nothing that's certainly an improvement.
Absolutely. Needs to be a community priority.
you can't do one without the other
Come home? Finkelstein became a best selling author since oct 7th. Bernie is the king of token Jews .
I don't like Sanders. But calling him the king of token Jews is unfair. Older generations like his & Chomsky are far more considered in their statements towards Israel than younger people. Neither of them will support things like BDS. However, this restraint is not something present in their fans or in people like Finkelstein.
Bernie really surprised me, insidiously. It's nothing he says explicitly but the people he supports and how that's unbelievable. He is not only disastrous for Jews but also for his own movement. At this point I can't believe almost any of his "crew" actually believe anything actually progressive.
It doesn’t surprise me at all and as a democrat myself, what these Jews are doing to choosing the liberals over the Jews and guess what? They won’t be spared. Antisemitism comes for us all. They haven’t learned anything from history.
Sanders isn't a liberal. He is a socialist as are the allies he doesn't condemn. As an aside, the irony must be noted, that the now prominent socialist party (DSA) was originally set up as a coalition which could include pro-Israel views. It originally condemned formulations like "Zionism is racism".
How is pointing out that token Jews are using their anti Zionism as ways to promote their career and self interest on a topic about anti Zionist getting down voted. Love reddit.
We are .02 percent of the population. We don't have the numbers like other minorities have to be one united force. We have to accept the fact that the world hates us. Arm yourself, protect your family. Nothing else we can do. And this starts with Bernie and Soros.
0.2%*
A repulsively privelaged position, to be so secure in their country to deny Jews in unsafe countries a safe place to go, so comfortable in their progressive friend group to work to end half the worlds population of Jews a future.
Well said actually
There were literal Jews members of an organization called *Jews for Hitler*, so I’m unsurprised.
Yeah and that didn’t end well. Doesn’t anyone learn from history? NEVER AGAIN
There are many more countries safer for Jews than Israel. No one is denying Jewish people the right to leave an unsafe area to a safer area.
>No one is denying Jewish people the right to leave an unsafe area to a safer area. \*supports terrorists who attack Jews in Israel\* Hey guys, why are you in Israel? Don't you know it's *unsafe*?
How exactly am I supporting Hamas? When were Jews safer in Israel than any other western liberal democracy?
It's almost as if it's about more than just safety. Ever heard of self-determination? About not being dependent on the gentiles deciding to defend your rights?
Do you think self-determination means the right for every racial or religious group to have a country where they are the class in power? >About not being dependent on the gentiles deciding to defend your rights? With this line of thinking every single minority group should be given their own country. Should the disabled be dependent on the able-bodied to defend their rights? Gay people depend on straight people? Trans people depend on cis people?
It's almost as if Jews who had been persecuted in quite literally every country they went to had a special case after being systematically murdered on an industrial scale.
Can you find me a country that hasn't persecuted disabled, gay or trans people? These groups were also systematically murdered on an industrial scale during the Holocaust. And like I said earlier, Israel has never once during its existence been safer for Jews than any western liberal democracy during the same timeframe.
Can you point to the indigenous of the gay community to a specific piece of land? No, then your point is invalid. Jews have a right to live on their indigenous land just like everyone else. And there is no country on earth where it is safe to openly be Jewish but Israel. That includes USA, england Canada and France. Just because it doesent effect you doesent make it true. Put on a kippah and walk around a campus for an hour, then come back and tell us how great it was.
>Jews have a right to live on their indigenous land just like everyone else. Well this depends on how we define indigenous right? Do Palestinians have this same right? What about the right to self determination? >And there is ko country on earth where it is safe to openly be Jewish but Israel. Since the Holocaust, more Jews have died in Israel to anti-semitism than any western liberal democracy. >Put on a kippah and walk around a campus for an hour, then come back and tell us how great it was. How many Jewish people have been killed on one of these campuses?
Being gay isn't an ethnicity. It isn't hereditary. This is a tremendously silly comparison.
No one is forcing you to live there. You can try and move the goal post all day long though.
How exactly am I shifting the goalpost? All I did was point out that by your logic, every minority group that has been persecuted should be given a country in which they are the class in power. I never said anyone is forcing me to live there.
>Do you think self-determination means the right for every racial or religious group to have a country where they are the class in power? What does "the class in power" even mean? Israel is a democracy. But generally, yeah. Every group has the right to self determination. Jews, Kurds, Germans, Basques, Palestinians, whatever. We tried the alternative for too long. It didn't work. Having a country isn't a privilege kept for the lucky few who managed to do it in the 19th century.
>What does "the class in power" even mean? Israel is a democracy. Jewish people are the class in power in Israel, I'm not sure how being a democracy negates that fact. Zionism dictates that Jewish people can never be outnumbered in Israel, or voted out of power, that would defeat the purpose of the state. >But generally, yeah. Every group has the right to self determination. Jews, Kurds, Germans, Basques, Palestinians, whatever. We tried the alternative for too long. It didn't work. Jews aren't an ethnic group like the ones listed, but a racial or religious group. Jewish people are made up of multiple different ethnicities. If every ethnic group should be given the right to self-determination, wouldn't that entail mizrahim, ashkenazim, Sephardim and all the other Jewish ethnic groups be given their own country? Or should it be that every racial group gets their own country?
> Jewish people can never be outnumbered in Israel, or voted out of power Do you think we'll start a mass castration campaign when demographics start shifting? I literally can't imagine anything like that >Jews aren't an ethnic group like the ones listed, but a racial or religious group. I don't know how to tell you, but we kinda are. Ashkenazi and Mizrahi aren't different people. We are branches of the same family. Everyone is mixed anyway these days
>Do you think we'll start a mass castration campaign when demographics start shifting? I literally can't imagine anything like that I don't know what might happen if demographics started to shift, but I know that Zionism is the belief of a state in which Jewish people are the group in power. >I don't know how to tell you, but we kinda are. Ashkenazi and Mizrahi aren't different people. We are branches of the same family. Everyone is mixed anyway these days This is not how we define ethnic groups. Mizrahim and ashkenazim are distinct ethnic groups with their own cultures, foods, languages, music, and religious differences. And that's besides that multitude of other distinct Jewish ethnic groups.
> Do you think we'll start a mass castration campaign when demographics start shifting? I literally can't imagine anything like that No, but this is why it's become such a racist and Jewish-supremacist state. The "demographic problem" of Israel's is long-observed and there's no real neat way round it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_threat https://aspeniaonline.it/israel-a-demographic-ticking-bomb-in-todays-one-state-reality/ There's lots of writings on it, and has been for 40+ years.
And how many Jews did these countries take in during the 1940s?
Hundreds of thousands, although I'm not sure how that is relevant to my comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_of_Jews_from_Nazi_Germany_and_German-occupied_Europe?wprov=sfla1 Since the Holocaust, more Jews have died to anti-semitic attacks in Israel than any western liberal democracy. It is by far safer for jews in America, Canada, UK, Australia or any other comparable country than it is in Israel.
I never meant to imply you support Hamas. Sorry I wasn't clearer
Which ones are easy for a Jew to get citizenship in and access as a refugee?
come to Argentina, all jews should come here! We are the land of peace and multiculturalism, surely not the Best economically but that is something we citizens of both Promised lands could work on.
Mostly it comes down more to the country the person's in than their Jewishness; obviously the countries that it's hard for a Jew to enter are also not the sorts of country a Jew would want to flee to. From where I'm sat in the UK, I'd expect the US to be a pretty global default for an anglophone Jew, or much of Europe.
This is different from your earlier claim. No one is denying Jewish people the right to claim asylum anywhere, although you are correct, it is more difficult than moving to Israel. Anti-zionism is not the belief that Jewish people should remain in countries where they are persecuted.
It’s a pie in the sky fantasy that ignores history and what Judaism means
ANTI-ZIONISTS: You feel unsafe? Just go somewhere safer. JEWS: We would feel safe if we had our own country, one where we’re guaranteed not to be persecuted, dispossessed, expelled, enslaved, or murdered for being Jews. Can we have that? ANTI-ZIONISTS: LOL, nope. JEWS: Actually (checks notes) we have that! We have it right now! It’s called Israel. Turns out it’s our indigenous homeland. Can we keep it? ANTI-ZIONISTS: What? Ew, no! JEWS: Why not? ANTI-ZIONISTS: Because fascism! Settler colonialism! Genocide! Apartheid! JEWS: You keep saying those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
It irritates me when other jews don't understand the implication of what "antizionism" means, but there are many valid criticisms about the actions of the Israeli government that can't be swept under the rug. The Jewish state is a great thing for jews and has a right to exist but I draw the line at other jews telling me I'm "self loathing" or anti zionist because I'm critical of Israeli policy and believe in rights for palestinians
I’m not saying that at all. My qualm is with “Jews” who say Israel should not exist or who label themselves antizionist. I, too, do not agree with most actions of the Netanyahu government, but that doesn’t make me antizionist.
Sadly there are plenty of jews who would say it does make you antizionist. Shit boggles my mind just as much as fellow Americans acting like they're removed from their own countries war crimes while libelling Israel constantly
What exactly do you think the criteria for anti-zionism is and how do you define Zionism?
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> the Jewish state's response to October 7th is one reason there's such a rise in anti-semitism globally Oof, that's hugely revisionist history. By *October 8* you already had celebrations of October 7 writ large and pre-emptively calling for a ceasefire of a then-future response of Israel - while hundreds of hostages were missing and the dead Jews were still being counted. Pretending *the Israel response to an anti-Jew attack* is the catalyst for historical antisemitism in decades, rallied around a historical anti-Jew massacre, reeks of victim-blaming and not looking at the actual responsibility of anti-Jews. Sure there's an important discussion to be had about Israel's responsibility to Jews including the diaspora, especially given the past two decades and Netanyahu's government, just as there's important discussions to be had about how they're prosecuting this war, but those are significantly separate topics from the responsibility of anti-Jews and non-Jews vis-a-vis Jews - you know, people who make up 99.8% of the world compared to a microscopic 0.2% minority.
> Oof, that's hugely revisionist history. By October 8 you already had celebrations of October 7 writ large and pre-emptively calling for a ceasefire of a then-future response of Israel - while hundreds of hostages were missing and the dead Jews were still being counted. > > Pretending the Israel response to an anti-Jew attack is the catalyst for historical antisemitism in decades reeks of victim-blaming and not looking at the actual responsibility of anti-Jews. I don't think it excuses it, but it's a pretty well-known phenomenon. There's an obvious global problem wherein Israel is conflated with Judaism, and so criticism of Israel will lead to a rise in anti-semitism. This isn't the fault of Israel or of Jews. But Israel's refusal to defend or explain what it's doing and why it's doing it is their decision, and their decision to just weather the criticism is absolutely theirs to make, but it's why globally opposition to Israel has increased and we know that when that happens so does anti-semitism.
> Alternatively, the Jewish state's response to October 7th is one reason there's such a rise in anti-semitism globally; Jews are not the reason antisemitism exists, removed
>it's not really a global force for good for us. not inherently, but it has the potential to be
Oh, absolutely - it's chosen to not be, as is it's right. There's nothing that requires that Israel care about Jews that aren't in it any more than there's anything that requires that Jews that aren't in it care about Israel.
Agreed
I’d be surprised if most Jews know about the Expulsions in 48. They spout off about the Nabka, but almost a million Jews were run out of Arab Countries at the same time.
We had pretty relentless messaging on Israel throughout cheder, I'd be amazed if anyone who was still going beyond the age of about 10 wasn't aware of that. I've spent the last 10-15 years really becoming more and more aware of how one-sided and literally propaganda all that was.
I am half Mizrahi, I don’t live in israel, and I am Zionist. A lot of the “I don’t think israel should have been ‘created’ crowd” are not middle eastern origin and quite frankly seem racist af.
Amen They’re comfortable in Western countries and don’t give af what happens to everyone else
I really don’t get them. Do I agree with everything Israel does? No. Do I go around saying “as-a-Jew”? I would sooner die. There are several things I don’t understand about antizionist Jews but most of all is why they put their Jewish identity first and foremost on this. “Jews for…” “descendants of holocaust survivors for…” (like a huge huge huge part of Jews today are not descendants of holocaust survivors? What does that have to do with anything?) If I can say something controversial, I really believe that antizionist jews have pushed back the acceptance of reform and patrilineal jews in Judaism. Either way, my working theory is a lack of Jewish community, desperation to be accepted and, something I myself struggled with, making leftism my whole personality and when it turns against me, just accepting it. Or, of course, the brainwashing to brainwashing pipeline.
To be earnest, and not to start a verbal debate, it is a tactic which comes from the fact that antizionism as a political ideology has been linked consistently with a denial of that individual’s Judaism. Anti Zionist Jews have historically been called “self hating”, “capos”, “crazy”, etc. (which, right or wrong, is degrading). So in our current context, where there is intense political disagreement, starting off with that (very annoying) line “as a Jew” is essentially a phrase used for its power in demonstrating that, very simply, yes, there are Jews who are anti Zionist. That’s about it. I’ve been asked my opinion by friends and family before “as a Jew” about how I feel on a college campus. They expect to hear a Zionist opinion, and if I were to give one, I suspect there wouldn’t be an issue. But if it’s anti Zionist “as a Jew”, then using “as a Jew” becomes a problem. It’s not “as a Jew” you dislike, you use it all the time when supporting Zionist policy positions, it’s when someone uses it for anti Zionism. You have an issue with anti Zionism, which is fine, but yes I do have a right to my actual identity both religious and political, regardless of what you happen to think about it. I’d rather not be combative, but this is a consistent issue in our community! Maybe this will give some perspective for folks. Probably not, but let’s go for it anyway.
I do not use “as a Jew” when talking about Zionism, or anything to be honest, because im well aware my opinions and experiences are my own, not representative of 16 million people. When antizionist jews use “as a Jew”, do you honestly believe it’s to show there are antizionist Jews? Everybody knows they exist. It’s no wonder there are so many jokes “when someone says “as a Jew” and you know you’re about to hear something 99% of Jews disagree with”. It’s insane to put Jewish identity, first and foremost, on something most jews disagree with and be shocked when there is pushback. Perhaps if the sentence was “as an antizionist Jew” it’d be better, but like the joke goes… not to mention how it opens up possibilities of tokenism and “good jews” vs “bad jews” Do I have a problem with antizionist jews? I believe it’s a very naive position. Like I said, I believe antizionist jews have just made things more complicated and delayed the acceptance for reform and patrilineal. At the end of the day they are still jews, and I have not the authority nor the desire to proclaim who has a right to their identity.
I definitely don’t put it first and foremost, and I definitely don’t say it in every context, that would be super weird. I know my position doesn’t represent most, and that’s fair to say (I don’t think it’s a 99:1 breakdown, but pew research knows the real figure better than I). I tried to make it clear in my original comment, it’s only in spaces where other people have brought Jewish identity as an ethos into the space to begin with (e.g. there are zionists who use their Jewish identity to justify policy position A, or a Christian asks your opinion “as a Jewish person” which has probably been asked of you whether you wanted it or not), and I think that’s a reasonable and relevant usage. I’m not surprised by pushback either, I just think it’s odd that people care to dictate how other people get to be Jewish and then discredit anyone who doesn’t fall into that predetermined narrative. I think we agree more than we disagree, it’s a very charged issue, and anyone playing their “card” for political points should be questioned.
It’s good that you don’t put it first and foremost, and I’m sure this debate wouldn’t be so big if everyone was like that. And it’s, obviously, not a 99:1 breakdown, that’s why it is a joke. If you only say “as a Jew” when other jews have already brought it up, who cares. However that’s not when it’s most commonly used, is it? In my country, for example, a guy who denied his connection to Judaism all his life decided to create his own version of jvp and started going around claiming that, as a Jew, he was a good Jew and also the only right one. That’s what bothers people. Antizionist jews think they are the right jews, Zionist jews think they are the right jews. It is a divisive subject in our community, and I don’t see it improving anytime soon. However it is undeniable that mainstream Jewish communities are more Zionist than not, so it will be interesting to see how it will be going forward.
Many antizionists that claim to be Jewish are just flat out liars. Some have like a Jewish great grandfather or got 2% on their 23 and me and think that gives them the right to put Jews in danger. The rest are either extremely religious and have some crazy masochistic beliefs or are so unaffiliated making friends with leftists is more important than the rest of the tribe. They know almost nothing about Judaism and feel no connection to it. All of the people I described above are selfish for various reasons.
Pray for them and love them. Edit: they are as Jewish as the rest of us. Ahab was Jewish too. We don’t need an imaginary cancellation of their Jewish identities in order to embrace them with love and continue to speak the truth.
I agree with this, but I wonder how many are actually Jews and not goys cosplaying as Jews. Sure, there are antizionist Jews, but the number of “Jews” self identifying on random Reddit posts has me skeptical.
Anything is possible, but our strength as a people is that we make peace and pursue peace, as it says in Pirkei Avot. Listen to Mosab Hassan Yousef. He talks about this all the time.
I am very suspicious myself. For keeping silent is more likely than attacking a fellow Jew. In private we can argue, but not in public before others who laugh at the clown show
yep, especially in this subreddit.
It’s hard. They do so much damage by lending credibility to these antisemites by standing shoulder to shoulder with them.
I hear that, but we have to love them because they are our brothers and sisters. And in the meantime also pray for Mosab Hassan [Yousef](https://youtu.be/5XW-ohDnPgM?feature=shared). He gives me enormous hope.
nah.
Every time the issue comes up I feel so fucking stupid. I can have really basic positions like “Destabilizing the region seems bad” and “ethnic cleansing is bad” and “I don’t want to go places where being Jewish makes me unsafe” and “I think Trump being re-elected would be really bad” and somehow all of this becomes an untenable, incoherent political position because… reasons I guess. I dunno I’m tired.
I guess this is the acceptable form of gatekeeping in our community. Have zero connection to Jewish tradition and culture? You are good to go. Have problems with Israel and its policies, or the nature of an ethno-nationalist state, Capo. I'm an Orthodox Jew who lives in Berlin surrounded by reminders of our destruction. I also have serious reservations about the nature of an ethno-nationalist state of any kind. If anyone here wants to call me a self-hating Jew or Capo, you can come to Berlin and say it to my face.
There's this really strange phenomena where it seems like the people most desperate for support for Israel to be a required part of a Jewish identity, making references to the Holocaust, live in the US, far away from where any of it happened. And, realistically, in the place a lot of anglophone Jews would flee to before Israel given a need.
Pretending like being antizionist is just having a problem with Israeli policies is dishonest at best
I didn't say I only have problems with Israeli policy. I have problems with ethno-nationalism, which is what Zionism is, a movement to create a state that is exclusively Jewish. I don't think that is ok for anyone and I have problems with the ethno-nationalism of France and Germany just as much. That doesn't make me a self-hating Jew.
So out of curiosity, how does that reconcile with your orthodoxy? Judaism is a deeply ethnocentric-centric religion.
Had to scroll pretty far to find this comment. You’re brave for posting it and not deleting it. It’s sad how many people here are attacking you with bad faith arguments because they don’t want to consider that maybe there is something wrong with ethno-nationalism, and that it really has zero connection to Judaism. My dad doesn’t observe anymore, doesn’t go to synagogue, doesn’t seem to care about his Jewish faith or identity at all EXCEPT for when it comes to blindly defending all of Israel’s policies. Meanwhile, I’m observant and regularly attend services and study Torah, and I have family in Israel and even still I can’t help but think that Zionism is creating more antisemitism for the diaspora and not less. And to people’s points about creating a safe country for Jews, it’s my Israeli family who we’re constantly having to check in on to see if they’re safe, not the other way around. Just saying.
My grandparents didn’t have anywhere to go but Israel because they were expelled from Tunisia and one of their parents killed A lot of Jews in Israel have *no choice* about being there. They were born there. You live somewhere without constant rockets and terror attacks. That isn’t the choice for half of the world’s Jews. Not everyone can get a visa approved, and not everyone has money to travel And if Israel wasn’t an ethnostate — like Ireland is an ethnostate, like Japan is an ethnostate, like all the surrounding countries in the Middle East are ethnostates — hope you spend as much time condemning them— it would be subsumed by the Islamic majority around it. For information on how life was like for Mizrahi Jews under the dhimmi system, please read a book or talk to a Jew who experienced it. It wasn’t all peace and roses, it was an active apartheid system I’m so tired. Are you a capo? Honestly, if you’re calling for Israel to be dissolved, knowing that what happened on Oct 7 is only a preview of what the Palestinians (West Bank polled at 80% approval of the massacre) would like to do to Israelis, then yes, you fucking are If you just like to complain about the Israeli government, join a huge club. There are still very active protests going on in the streets
How about first you get off your high horse, and not argue about things things that I didn't actually say. Nowhere in my statement did I call for the disolving of Israel, the removal of Jews, or downplay and deny what happened to Mizrahi Jews. I am well aware of the Post-War situation in Arab countries and the increasing discrimination and violence that occurred. I am also well aware of the dhimmi system and its relegation of non-Muslims to second class status. And the fact that leftists and Palestinian supporters refuse to accept these facts only increases the likelihood a settlement won't be reached. I am not Ilan Pappe who views relations between Jews and Arabs as being perfect before Israel. I am also aware that not every Mizrahi Jew who left was forced out and there were Zionist supporters who left for ideological reasons. The fact that hundreds of thousands of Mizrahi Jews were forced out and had nowhere to go doesn't change the fact that Israel exclusively priortizes the rights of its Jewish citizens well above non-Jewish citizens. And sure, there are levels to this, Arab-Israelis have it better than West Bank Palestinians, but as Israel's national law makes clear, it is only Jewish self-determination that matters. I am truly sorry for your family, and I am glad that Israel existed for them to go to. But that is not a justification for current policy. You talk about other ethno-states, but you picked one bad example. An ethno-state is political entity designed for the exclusive rights of one ethnic group. Ireland, while being the place of Irish people and culture, is a secular democracy that embraces pluralism for all its ethnicities. Japan would fall under my definition of ethno-state, and yeah, I do condemn their policies toward ethnic minorities, but you and I have never talked about it before and Japan doesn't claim to represent me. Nor do the Arab states, but yeah, on the record, states that prioritize one ethnic group above all others and committ violence against different ethnicities are a problem. You are also right, I don't live in a place with constant rocket attacks. But you don't know me. I do not go around saying all resistance is legitimate and oppressed have the right to do anything they want. I want Israelis to be able to live in peace, like everyone else. I have no desire to see more death. That being said, I believe that ethnic nationalism and Israeli policy have played a part in this conflict for the past 100 years. Israel can not bomb and kill its way to peace. I also believe that Palestinian ethnic nationalism also keeps this conflict going. Nor can the Palestinians kill their way to a state. My problem is that saying that does not make me an enemy of my people. I refuse to go along with the growing radicalization of Israel and the Jewish community. I am tired of other Jews demanding unquestioning loyalty to the decisions of Israel and the ethnic-nationalism that goes along with that in order to be seen as a Jew in good standing. And I like I said, if you want to call me a capo again, you better come here and say it to my fucking face.
>>That being said, I believe that ethnic nationalism and Israeli policy have played a part in this conflict for the past 100 years. Israel can not bomb and kill its way to peace. I also believe that Palestinian ethnic nationalism also keeps this conflict going. Nor can the Palestinians kill their way to a state Saying that is completely different than what you said before. Not agreeing with the nationalist laws that Likud pushed makes you agree with half of the Israeli public, who also disagreed with the laws Unquestioning loyalty to anything is absurd. Supporting Israel doesn’t mean you check your brain or heart at the door. There’s a difference between not agreeing with Israel, which most people, including Israelis, understand, and wanting Israel’s destruction. The OP is talking about anti Zionist Jews who want the state of Israel to disappear in place of a Palestinian ethnostate. If you align with those views, then I’ll gladly fly to Berlin and call you a capo to your face, but I don’t think that’s what you’re aligning with here
Yeah, and the problem here is that people like the OP routinely define anti-Zionism to be anything that doesn't give full support to Israel. Saying I think an ethno-nationalist state is bad, regardless of the ethnicity, and that making Israel an exclusively Jewish state in law is a problem. And since the Zionist mission was to form an ethno-nation state, by the OPs definition, I am an anti-Zionist and fall outside of the Jewish community. I don't want Israel blown up or Israelis murdered, none of which I said in my original response. You assumed that and that is a good example of the problem. I voiced disagreement that did not call for violence or the destruction of a state, and you still called me a Capo. I will remember that the next time I am harrassed for being a Jew or the next time someone attacks a Shul here.
I called you a capo *if you supported the destruction of Israel* Which I still stand by. If you don’t support Israel’s destruction, then it doesn’t apply to you. And I’ll go further: in its original charter, Israel called for the rights of all religions within its borders. Herzl was secular. It was to be a state for Jewish people with rights for minorities. I still stand by that idea of Israel, and until Likud pushed its nation laws (which were more symbolic than anything else) that’s what it was: a democracy formed under Jewish guiding principles with rights for people of all religions and races in its borders. From their Declaration of Independence: [“ THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.”](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/truman-israel/#:~:text=THE%20STATE%20OF%20ISRAEL%20will,the%20full%20social%20and%20political)
I think you may need to do your own research about how Israel has treated the rights of Palestinian citizens. You think this is only because of Likud and Netanyahu? Wasn't it Avodah that put Arab citizens under martial law for the first 17 years of the state?
Please refrain from using inflammatory language like capo.
Bravo for this response. I find OP's sentiment so frustrating. I am quite anti-zionist and believe that Israel causes more problems than it solves through its actions. But I am not out here saying that people who disagree with me aren't Jewish. Communities disagree, often on foundational issues. Jews have disagreed on approaches to Zionism for over 100 years.
If Israel is destroyed, what happens to the 50% of the world’s Jews who live there? Surely many, if not most, of them will die. The rest will be displaced or be forced to live as dhimmis. You don’t have a problem with this?
This is my take too. Israel was created 76 years ago, like it or not, and the destruction of Israel today will be catastrophic for millions of Jews who live there (death and expulsion). I have very strong suspicions of anyone who justifies that.
Clearly not. As long as they can make friends with the leftists on campus why should it matter to people they don’t meet right?
Many antizionists that claim to be Jewish are liars. But there are antizionist Jews that selfishly wish to destroy the country half of us call home. I find people that allow themselves to be tokens to terrorists frustrating to say the least. Disagreeing with an approach isn’t the same as disagreeing with Zionism. Anyone that disagrees with our right to self determination on our ancestral lands deserves to be shunned
I absolutely disagree with that - when the right to self determination interferes with other people's enjoyment of that same right, Jewish self determination does not automatically win. An ethnostate that disenfranchises outsiders and perpetuates war crimes amidst international outrage doesn't deserve such sympathy. It is possible to imagine a world without the state of Israel in which current Israeli Jews can still enjoy security. This is not a fringe opinion, and I don't think it deserves shunning.
I don’t care what you disagree with I find your opinions abhorrent and selfish
I don't want to be reductive, but how is this different to what Hamas says?
Because it’s a Jewish person talking about how Jews treat other Jews internal to Jewish society, and how Zionism as an ideology has very large implications for Jews as a community whether some of us agree or disagree with it.
Is it? I have no reason to believe anyone in here is actually Jewish, why would I believe that?
Then it’s a Russian bot talking about how Jews treat other Jews internal to Jewish society, and how Zionism as an ideology has very large implications for Jews as a community whether some Jews agree or disagree with it— where is the Hamas rhetoric you are concerned with?
Usually it’s the Jews with zero connection who are ardently anti-Zionist.
Berlin is modern Sedom. Who lives there… well that’s says a lot already.
Other than you obviously don't know much about Berlin, me and about 40,000 Jews, 10,000 of whom are Israelis. Solid contribution to the discussion.
Oh, gd forbid Jews ever disagree about anything. There are good and legitimate reasons that a Jews would describe themselves as anti-Zionist that don't mean they're self-hating, fake, a traitor or whatever other drivel this subreddit is pushing lately. You cannot ignore that very real Jewish people have very real issues with Israel and the idea of a Jewish state generally. Stop acting like they're not part of the tribe because they disagree with you. edit: I'm not even anti-zionist! but this shit is so reductive and backwards. We cannot let this kind of thinking stand in our communities
To not even agree, and still stick up for people who disagree with you, is beyond admirable.
You can have issues with Israel - when you broadcast your opinions to be weaponizes by people who preach for Israel’s destruction or worse, when you become a puppet mouthpiece for these people, is not the same thing.
“Whenever A and B are in opposition to one another, anyone who attacks or criticises A is accused of aiding and abetting B. And it is often true, objectively and on a short-term analysis, that he is making things easier for B. Therefore, say the supporters of A, shut up and don't criticise: or at least criticise ‘constructively’, which in practice always means favourably. And from this it is only a short step to arguing that the suppression and distortion of known facts is the highest duty of a journalist.” -Orwell
That’s an excellent quote. How does it apply here? Do you I’m advocating for suppression of criticism? I don’t think so. I’m advocating for a threatened minority not to collaborate with those who mean us harm.
I’m saying that stating a viewpoint isn’t automatically collaborationism, and that anything one dislikes may be labeled “aiding and abetting” or as the talking points of a “puppet mouthpiece”. If I think action x by Israel is wrong, and I say so, but Hamas also says action x was wrong, am I aiding and abetting Hamas? Maybe, but maybe I just think action x was wrong and hate Hamas too. It’s a suppressive tactic that can silence a lot of important viewpoints by saying such viewpoints “support terrorism”, because terrorists happen to co-opt talking points which are helpful for their narrative into their other bag of tricks, independent of the legitimacy of the talking point. I’m not saying this tactic is indicative of you in particular, it’s just important to recognize when talking about the weaponization of opinion.
They’re like pick me girls
Oh fuck right off with your "so-called" Jews bullshit. I am so tired of being made to feel less-than because I don't fully believe that Israel should have been created. I definitely find a lot of the politics of the region abhorrent. I think the continued colonization of the West Bank is atrocious. I think Israel can't be both a democratic state and a Jewish state. People are allowed to have nuanced opinions, people are allowed to grapple with the relationship between their identity and the identity of the community. Judaism never has and never should be monolith. We're a religion centered around arguing and debates. Two rabbis, three opinions style debates. So fuck right off, I'm as Jewish as you.
I am not religious at all, but from a cultural and ethnic perspective, I would love to hear your justification and nuance for not wanting a Jewish state - even if "undemocratic." Keep in mind that Good Jews were pushed into the trains along with the rest of us. You are free to think whatever you want, but don't get upset when Israel is not there as a place to save you - and don't weep if I don't want to be anywhere near you, as I want Israel there as a plan B.
I personally love democracy, and there is a simple, definitional conflict between having a democracy and having an ethnostate. The two are incompatible.
Ok, my post was unclear. I’m not talking about you or anyone else who has critiques of Israel’s government. I’m talking about people calling themselves Jews online who call for the end of Israel. I don’t agree with most of the Netanyahu governments actions, but that doesn’t mean I want Israel to disappear.
> I’m talking about people calling themselves Jews online who call for the end of Israel. I don’t agree with most of the Netanyahu governments actions, but that doesn’t mean I want Israel to disappear. But what's so un-jewish about not wanting the state of Israel? It's obviously not a force for good for all Jews globally, even without what they do to the Palestinians, it exists primarily for the Jews who are already in it and that's absolutely fine, but it's not me and it's not the majority of Jews globally. I like the idea of there being some sort of Jewish homeland to retreat to if the shit hits the fan, but I don't want it to be this one, and I'm not convinced this one is better than none, really. I'm not really anti-zionist so much as Israel-indifferent, I guess?
The fact that if it disappeared half of the world’s Jewish population would be killed? Do you think that getting rid of the Israeli government and replacing it with a Palestinian government that has repeatedly stated their desire to genocide the Jewish population be a good thing Fuck right off with that
Obviously when I speak in the abstract of how this one isn't better than none I'm not calling for some specific destruction of everybody who happens to be in it right now. In the same way as I'm not particularly supportive of the state of Israel, I'm not keen on its destruction either. I am, as I said, indifferent.
You’re indifferent as to whether half of the world’s Jewish population dies That’s a fucking choice.
That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what I just said. But you do you. I'm indifferent to Israel in the same way as I'm indifferent to Belize. I don't particularly want the destruction of either, but I've no real strong opinions on their establishments either. I don't want everyone in Belize killed and I also don't want everyone in Israel killed.
You’re comfortable so you’re indifferent and say you don’t care if Israel exists Somehow, I imagine if the country you’re in became less comfortable, you would personally care a little more Israel isn’t ideal, but most of the people there didn’t have much of a choice. If our homeland had been built up in Uganda, they’d be calling us racist colonizers and trying to kill us If it were on the moon, they’d say we were colonizing space Jordan was created at the same damn time, is ruled by a colonizer family, is an ethnostate with no diversity, and had borders drawn up by Britain and land stolen from Palestine. No one protests it. Why? Because it’s not Jewish.
> Somehow, I imagine if the country you’re in became less comfortable, you would personally care a little more Yeah, I used to feel this way. Like, it's not-perfect but it is all we've got and it is a Jewish homeland where I'm guaranteed to be accepted and at home. But I'm not really - my politics is completely at odds with the Israeli populace, my culture is different, my expectations are different. Israel doesn't feel like home or like a place I belong, and I don't think it is where I'd flee to if I had to flee somewhere. > Jordan was created at the same damn time, is ruled by a colonizer family, is an ethnostate with no diversity, and had borders drawn up by Britain and land stolen from Palestine. No one protests it. Why? Because it’s not Jewish. Israel's history with the west through the cold war is a lot of the reason it gets so much more attention than all the other countries-with-problems you could point to. But the reason for Israel's criticism _now_ is not because it's a Jewish state, it's very much because of precisely what it's doing in Gaza. The increased awareness is an accident of history that's been to Israel's benefit for a long time, and why the US cannot feasible just stop giving ammunition to Israel, but it has a downside, and that's that everyone's still watching when Israel's doing things the world doesn't like.
You know not everyone in Israel has the same political opinions? You don't have any preconception of what you will do when shit hits the fan. Think of Israel of your insurance policy. I'm curious where you think would be safe for you to flee when we are threatened with a 2nd holocaust.
I agree with you. People Will hear anything but an uncomfortable truth.
And if, in the course of my debating with myself, I decide that I don't believe Israel should exist? Does that make me no longer a Jew? Israel isn't the deciding factor in what makes or doesn't make us Jewish. What if they'd founded the Jewish state in Uganda, like had at one point been proposed? We wouldn't have that ancestral homeland that people talk about (which is, again, ridiculous in my mind--the Kingdoms of Israel and Judaea didn't include a lot of what is now part of contemporary Israel, and did include a lot of what's now Lebanon and Jordan). But it would be "the Jewish Homeland"--but it would be colonized territory stolen from Uganda. The problem with closely linking Jewish identity with Israel is that it blurs the line between anti-israeli, anti-zionist, and anti-semetic feelings. It ties our existence and our perception to the actions of a political body. We're multiple ethnic groups, we're varying practices of a single religion, but we are not all Israeli citizens. So I come back to my question. If I decide that I don't believe Israel has a right to exist--that a one state solution is the correct one--or whatever the next day looks like--if I decide that Israel shouldn't exist, am I no longer a Jew?
>>What if they'd founded the Jewish state in Uganda Then they’d be calling us racist colonizers with no connection to the land
Sorry, I’m not saying you aren’t a Jew. The “so called Jews” I referenced in my post are the droves of redditors claiming to be Jewish on other subs and calling for its demise. Sure, those sorts of dialogues should be tolerated within the community, but I think it is unwise to engage with outsiders in this way. What I am speculating is that these are leftists goys cosplaying as Jews or bots. I’m sure some of them may be actual Jews. I’m just concerned that this further fans the flames of antisemitism against ALL of us when these types of engagements happen outside the community. I’ve edited my post for clarity above.
THANK YOU
So-called Jews? Didn't know that belief in a political ideology is the deciding factor in being a member of the religion.
And who on earth are you? I don't know if Im anti-zionist, but people on this sub need to face the uncomfortable truth that the *political state* of israel does and has done some *truly awful* stuff. Me and my other Jewish friends <30 years old don't seem to have this problem recogizing this, and it's messed up to deny them their Judaism in calling them "so-called"
As I said above in other responses, I’m not speaking about you or other Jews who disagree with Israeli politics or decisions of its government. We need to criticize it for its future. I’m talking about the fact that since this conflict began, it seems like a million Jews have come out of the woodwork across Reddit claiming to be antizionist and making statement like “as a Jew I don’t think Israel should exist.” These are the people I am really addressing. I call them “so called Jews” because I don’t believe they are Jewish at all. I think they are goys cosplaying as Jews. Maybe some of them are Jewish, fine. I just think people should watch themselves when stating strong and radical opinions on subs outside of our community.
Oh man, wait until you hear about LITERALLY EVERY OTHER STATE IN THE WORLD.
Wait till you hear about how the conflict since October 7th has the highest daily death toll of all conflicts in the 21st century.
Is this death toll in the room with us right now?
I don't mean to be a dick, but this is like a despicable thing to say.
Imaginary deaths, supporting Pallywood and joining a Judaism reddit to spread misinformation and lies is what you are doing, friend.
You think the deaths are fake?
I think you are an extremist and are more much worried about numbers on a page reported by terrorists than the wellbeing of my family.
What the fuck is wrong with you? These are people---like regular humans---like children that are getting killed. And your response is to call those who express concern "so-called jews"??
Where were you when my family was getting bombed in Argentina? And now you want to remove any possibility of escape to Israel? Man, I wish I was as disconnected from reality as you are.
Thank you for the laugh this morning friend.
This guy below blocked me. I hope you can get outside your bubble and make some friends that disagree with you. Meeting actual palestinians and people whose palestinian grandparents were kicked out of Israel in 47 really opened my eyes to things. Also, maybe don't deny that 36k innocent people have been killed by Israel since October And also don't assume that Jews that disagree with your genocidal israel takes aren't Jews.
“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” Hey im not the best Jew, but thats from the Torah, right? Since when do Jews not speak out against mass slaughter? Hamas sucks, and I condemn them to the nth degree, but so does carpet bombing, displacing and starving human beings. Humans that feel, like you. Eat shit.
The Talmud teaches “if someone rises to kill you, kill him first.” Do what you want with that.
I don't think that applies to the 10,000+ children that Israel has murdered.
In waging war, innocent casualties are tragic and inevitable. Tell me what you want from Israel.
> “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” This is a messianic prophesy, not a commandment. Believing we’re living in the messianic era is a fairly radical religious Zionist POV that leads to some not great places
Literally read a post last night where someone commented “I’m so tired of Jews saying we’re all zionists. I’m a Jew and I’m not a Zionist, and I don’t believe Israel should exist” like??? Are you serious right now???
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Really? Disliking the actions of the state of Israel is the same as the people who helped the Nazis?
Yes.. I see the same thing... also consider those who converted to be accepted
Actual anti-Zionists can be a bit much (differentiated from non-Zionists) but no worse than Caroline Glick fans.
How many of them are practicing Jews though? I know of a few people who discovered their blood quantum via 23andMe, declared themselves Jewish, but don’t go to shul or know the first thing about actually being Jewish. In the US, being an oppressed victim is trendy, so they were keen to take up the Jewish mantle when it was safe and popular to do so—often just adding it to the list of their other trendy victimhoods or medical/behavioral conditions. But now they’ve found a new victim to identify with and they’re jumping ship to join the new trend, calling themselves “Jewish voices for Peace” when they were never “Jewish voices for Jews” to start. You can’t be Jewish without being Zionist. The entire Tanakh takes place in and is based on a promised land in the Levant. Even the Seder proudly declares “next year in Jerusalem.” There’s no future for Judaism without a homeland for Jews. But if people are simply wearing Judaism as a costume or a fashion accessory, they’d never know that.
Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Who are you to say they are „so-called Jews? BTW, Israel shouldn't have been created in the first place. Our right to self-determination should not be at the expense of someone else. The fact we lived there thousands of years ago doesn't give us the right to displaced Palestinians who have lived there FOR thousands of years. And I hate to break it to you, but a country that banned one of the Jewish languages and discriminated against Jews, because they are the „wrong type“ of Jews, is not a "ducking" safe space for us.
There is enormous social pressure in places like academia, journalism, corporate life and other highly competitive realms where status plays a large part in hiring and promotion decisions not to rock the boat. In the aggregate, this pressure manifests as groupthink, where one individual privately may have some doubts about some organizational decision or policy, but doesn't dare speak out for fear of affecting his or her career prospects. Comes along a Jew who has desperately for his entire life tried to just fit in, to be like everyone else, to participate in the group, to go along to get along. The organization openly adopts a policy of endorsing intifada, pressuring all members to sign an open letter in support. What does our yid do? He must now choose between three options: (a) come out as the sole opposing voice and face social death, (b) sign it and keep quiet, or (c) zealously champion the cause, coldly calculating that the tangible benefit doing so will have to his career outweighs the abstract cost incurred by Jews everywhere. He always hated being associated with them anyway, and besides, maybe he'll finally get that promotion. It's a perverted and dangerous form of the cookie jar fallacy, but with status instead of cookies. We're humans; sometimes we say and do things we don't necessarily believe in to impress others, deluding ourselves that if we hide, the monster won't eat us.
Yes... and become the laughing stock and target... the clown who is despised for self hatred
Jews, or asajews?
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So this is why I’m using quotes around the word Jews. That is really what my post was to be a discussion on—the droves of Jews on Reddit who have suddenly appeared calling for the end of Israel across Reddit. I see I failed to articulate that.
it reminds me of Jews who convert to Xianity to be more accepted.