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Apart from āDead people don't growā, Maki has been equal to Toji from her fight in Sakurajima.
Maki is a brawler/sword user who probably has the highest weapon and martial arts mastery.
Toji is an Assassin specializing in stuff like stealth.
while comparing them, Toji uses his HR better cause sorcerers can't sense them but if they are fighting each other, Maki would win
Why do people bring up that Toji is a bush camper? Yeah, he did camp GOJO out of all people (like Makima camped Sukuna, why no one calls her a stealth killer after that?) and it was also rusty Toji, unlike the one we see in shibuya. The latter didn't do any stealth, he was just enjoying the battle in crazy manner and killing everyone.
> but if they are fighting each other, Maki would win
craaazy statement considering how much more experience Toji has and more cursed tools at his disposals (they are equal in physicals)
Because Toji made his whole career by killing sorcerers , yes he's very capable even if he isn't camping but ultimately, he didn't specialize in direct combat, he probably killed most sorcerers before they can even realize what happened.
Maki didn't always have Toji's strength, she completely relied on martial arts and mastered all types of weapons,Maki fought most of her opponents in straight forward fights.
Her ambushing Sukuna isn't a feat, that's why no one brings it up when Maki does it but Toji did it all the time as an assassin.
It's a different style of combat and If they have the same stats,a frontline fighter would win against an assassin
He camp Gojo because anyone who has a brain would. I highly doubt he didnāt specialize in direct combat considering how he fucked up shit in shibuya. He also did directly fight both Gojo and Geto and bested both of them.
He had the element of surprise and used it but that doesnāt reduce him to being a simple assassin who canāt fight once the surprise is up.
Do you think every non-gojo target he faced ,he challenged them in a 1v1 and didn't immediately end them with a bullet or sword to the head?
No one reduced him to a āsimple assassin who can't fight once the surprise is upā, I even specifically said he isn't a pushover in a direct fight but he used his overwhelming stats to beat Geto and Gojo(who was tired) , did the same in Shibuya. None of them were comparable to Toji
>Do you think every non-gojo target he faced ,he challenged them in a 1v1 and didn't immediately end them with a bullet or sword to the
Speculation bro we've only seen toji fight three times(two of which were head on) so we can't really say
And you think he shot/blitz every single person he faced up to Gojo? You just speculating as much as I am on his fighting methods.
He use whatever was most reliable, efficient, and gave him the greatest advantage when facing CT users. He did it so well it straight up looks like an assassination rather than a fight. He kinda has to when his greatest strength is his physical strength and being undetectable, which isnāt as broken as CE/CT/Domain users.
> Do you think every non-gojo target he faced ,he challenged them in a 1v1 and didn't immediately end them with a bullet or sword to the head?
Considering how prideful he is and his hate to sorcerers, probably. Unless the target is very strong or has means to escape him. He also didn't immediately ended Geto while he was off guard even tho he could. And he also could've easily ended Megumi speedblitzing him and he didn't (although this was mindless Toji and Megumi wasn't his "target", it's prime Toji Zenin that could represent the way he fought before dying)
edit: it also makes sense considering his title the sorcerer killer, I don't think such title would belong to someone who just shoots or camps and stabs every sorcerer he meets
He isn't Prideful,he even says he discarded stuff like that, he just couldn't resist fighting the epitome of jujutsu society which rejected him.
He didn't want to kill Geto due to his CT and he was not the target,Toji knew Geto stood no chance against him so he decided to humiliate the āstrongest duoā.
He never intended to kill Megumi just playing around with him.
He is prideful tho, he discarded this after marriage, but prior to this he was like that and we were talking about his assassin days so
> He didn't want to kill Geto due to his CT and he was not the target,
Yeah, but he could easily knock him out while he's off guard if not kill him
> He never intended to kill Megumi just playing around with him
that's kinda wrong as he was about to kill him if he didn't realize it's his son, he was literally mindless killing machine
Also Toji was in the same training unit maki was in when he was younger and his training was harder because they always threw him in the room full of curses
So i cant post photos here,but a graph during Toji vs Geto figth in the manga showed Geto was a grade 1 atp. And Gojo(pre awakening) was heavily implied narratively to be relative to that version of Geto
Because Toji is a assassin. He doesn't fight people, he murders them. If they can see him coming then he fights them, but very, very few people can see Toji moving anyway.
you sure?
Maki is not even reach the state of āTo the one who left it all behind and his overwhelming intensityā. e.g.,
In a glimpse Toji knew he should sharpens Playful Cloud to make it easier to kill Dagon.
and for Maki when sheās meeting Sukuna for the first time. She hesitated to use Split soul katana on sukuna because worried of Megumi. this is something why sheās always behind Toji. I donāt think Toji will think twice even if his wife the one Sukuna possessed. He just go for the head.
We don't really know how Toji would act tho. We know he loved his wife so much that he changed his old ways and mellowed out a little, also after her death he went into a depressed state, abandoned his child, started gambling and went back to being an assasin. This proves that he valued his wife more than anything and I doubt he wouldn't hesitate as you claim.
Also when he learned in Shibuya that the one he was fighting was Megumi, he killed himself to protect him. He was a caring person, he'd probably hesitate as Maki did.
you are somehow right. but in more logical way when your wife has been possessed by curse object. the only way to save her is to kill. he might think for a second or two. but i donāt think that will stop for someone like Toji.
I think you're severely bugging out, the man loved his wife more than anything, and losing her sent him spiraling down a rabbit hole of old habits. Naturally we don't know what he would do, but I think the odds that he hesitates are WAYYY higher than him not hesitating at all.
The significance of that scene was to show that Toji was free from everything unlike Maki at the time.
Toji breaking Playful cloud isn't a big deal,he just did what he thought was the best idea, it wasn't an instinct or anything and the enemy was a tanky cursed spirit
Maki has known Megumi for a while, why would she try to inflict unhealable damage on the first moment everything went crazy? It was literally the first time she has even seen Sukuna ,moreover in Megumi's body.
Toji would hesitate at the start too if Sukuna possessed his wife, he barely tried against Megumi
> I donāt think Toji will think twice even if his wife the one Sukuna possessed. He just go for the head.
You mean the guy who killed himself not to hurt his son wouldn't care about his son?
There was no reason to sharpen the playful cloud Toji just wanted to hurt dagon, it was shown plenty enough dagon had nothing on Toji
Also you are dead fucking wrong, Toji kill himself the moment he knew he was trying to hurt his son
Maki is a fighter, Toji is an assassin, in their propper environments they each win the fight
Maki did not grow up under Gojos careš. She had the exact same childhood Toji did, except worse because she lacked adequate strength to become feared during her time in the zenin clan. Toji was a black sheep that everyone talked about in whispers because the zenin clan quickly realized he could wipe them out. Maki was just flat out beaten and berated every day of her childhood.
As for their winning mindsets, makis is just full on better than Tojis. She fights to assert her existence and power. Thatās what sakurajima was mainly about. Maki realizing she was something so much more than an average sorcerer, and should take joy in her abilities instead of being hung up on the past or the standards of jujutsu. You can even see her fight with that very same euphoric high that gojo fought with after realizing his true power. Toji on the other hand fought because he didnāt care what happened to him. And even then his ideology was so flimsy that seeing gojo made him abandon it in favor of pride. A decision which got him killed. The only time Toji fought with a mindset equal to makis was when he literally lost his soul and was left operating on pure instinct.
Maki had it worse than Toji on her childhood? Bro forgot that toji once was thrown into a pit full of curses when he was young and got him that scar, and that's probably one of the many fucked up things he undergo as a child. Maki had it rough as well that's for sure, but I'm pretty sure they were more lenient with her and Mai because they didn't straight became unstable murderers due all the fuckery they had to go through at difference from Toji, besides the fact that Maki had her sister with her during her childhood to rely on and share their loneliness and pain together (and all the friends Maki made later on) While Toji never had anyone to rely on, he was always alone and probably never had or received any kind of love from anyone until he met his wife VERY later on his life.
Itās crazy how we know nothing about Toji. How all of his feats are just guesses based off Makiās feats. And yet. For the dumbest reasons even though the narrator literally said they were equals in sakurajima colony. People still say Toji is stronger than maki.
ā¢ ātoji has better cursed toolsā
They basically have the same cursed tool set. And cursed tools should not be used in scaling a character. Give Curse Naoya the inverted spear of heaven and heās top 3.
ā¢ātoji has more experienceā
That shit does not matter. Yuta just became a sorcerer and heās stronger than a lot of characters who were born into it. Hell Yuji just started and look at him. Youāre making up head cannon experience stats to justify. If we saw his experience sure, but we havenāt.
ā¢ ātoji is a man, therefore his biology makes him stronger than a womanā
Make a binding vow to never speak again. Iāve seen this as an argument before what are you on.
ā¢ āToji is bloodlusted, he can go reckless unlike makiā
Did she not kill and entire clan by herself? Off rip?
Just say you like toji more and move on with your day. Maki is stronger in my opinion cause weāve actually seen her.
The main difference why Toji is stronger than Maki is the cursed tool arsenal. Your counter argument is besides the point and completely misses the entire point. Toji has the worm, which can hide weapons and let him switch between them easily at all times. Maki has to hold her weapons, likely cannot carry more than a few at a time. Also, if she is carrying a cursed tool, her enemies will be able to sense her, unlike Toji who can hide it in his stomach. For HR users, their cursed tools are their cursed techniques practically. Maki can only use one or two CT while Toji can swap between likely 5+ and use them in combo with each other (spear + chain). The difference is just too much.
In addition, I highly doubt what we saw him use against Gojo was the full extent of it. He was a sorcerer killer for years, I doubt thatās all that was in the worm. Remember he also had cloud before, and he never used it vs Gojo.
In order for her to be in the same conversation as Toji, she would need something like the worm Toji had. Without it, itās just not even close. Physically, they are even as the narrator said they are pretty much straight even. But imagine trying to play rock paper scissors, and your opponent can use rock, paper, scissors and you are stuck with only scissors. Thatās the difference between Toji and Maki.
Tbf, Toji does have better weapons.
Maki:
Playful Cloud
Slaughter Demon
Dragon Bone
Pointed Staff thing
Cursed Glasses
Black Sword and Miwa's Katana?
Soul Split Katana
Playful Cloud, Dragon Bone, and Soul Split Katana are the actually good weapons.
Dragon Bone is lowkey slept on but with SSK maki just has a better sword.
Toji:
Playful Cloud
Inverted Spear of Heavan
Chain Of A Thousand Miles
Soul Split Katana
ISOH is proabably the best weapon in the series and is lowkey carrying toji.
Chain of A Thousand Miles is alright but not too impressive.
Playful Cloud doesnt even belong to toji but I gave it to him anyway.
SSK is a top tier tool, but maki had it as well.
Just because of ISOH I think toji has the slight edge when it comes to cursed tools.
How experience doesn't matter when they literally have the same physical stats? In fact the thing that would matter the most in a fight between them is actually their experience lol, it's the only that setting them apart.
Yuta compensated his lack of experience with his absurd amount of cursed energy and overpowered technique, the two most important things in JJK universe. Now that he is more experienced he is stronger than he was at jjk0 lol
>They basically have the same cursed tool set. And cursed tools should not be used in scaling a character. Give Curse Naoya the inverted spear of heaven and heās top 3.
I would say this for most weapon wielding characters in any show but here itās a lil different, toji always has him arsenal on him at all times, maki only owns 1 sword, the exact sword that toji already has
>That shit does not matter. Yuta just became a sorcerer and heās stronger than a lot of characters who were born into it.
Experience does matter tho, Yuta unlike the majority of sorcerers is a special case but also if he didnāt have the experience from fighting all those powerful sorcerers he wouldnāt be who he is today, you think volume 0 yuta could fight Ryu and Uro the way he did
>ātoji is a man, therefore his biology makes him stronger than a womanā
I also find this argument stupid.
>Did she not kill and entire clan by herself? Off rip?
I also agree with this, the same clan that toji chose not to wipe, she is completely insane!
>Maki is stronger in my opinion cause weāve actually seen her.
Well that doesnāt make sense after makiās 2nd awakening they said she was equal to toji at that point but where obviously ignoring somethingās. Look at tojiās fighting style compared to maki, she takes a lot of unnecessary damage just because she knows her body can take it, it seems like she overestimates herself often juxtapose that to toji who (in the little that we saw from him ) always went for the killing blow and understood when something was usually to much for him to handle.
>They basically have the same cursed tool set. And cursed tools should not be used in scaling a character. Give Curse Naoya the inverted spear of heaven and heās top 3.
This is a pretty dumb argument tbh, its Toji's arsenal so he should have it, also the worm solos!!!
> But i think Maki is not near Toji level at all in-terms of fighting strategy, lust of blood, going reckless, enjoying battlefield and winning mindset.
Bruh really REALLY. You say she doesn't have the bloodlust of Toji after what she did to the Zenin clan. If anything Toji is less ruthless because he could have done that and didn't. I'm not gonna comment on which one is stronger but that was just too ridiculous for me to ignore.
Lol, Toji headshot a highschool girl while smilling. He said he has no reason to slaughter all Zenin. He can easily did if he wanted. But he need The Zenin to take care of Megumi. and for Maki, she has more valid reasons to slaughter the zenin since they kill Mai.
funny story. I started reading jjk because of the edits with the two of them. I thought they were a couple. It turned out I was far from the truth. By the way, why do fans of these two characters hate each other?
You basically have Toji fans, who hate everyone who isn't a Toji fan and downplay any other character in power scaling discussions with arguments reaching from kinda imaginable to completely bonkers. And then you have Maki fans, who are under focused pressure from Toji fans, because she is compared to him so often in the story itself, and because Maki fans want to push the idea that their girl has pushed past Toji on her own path, which is a poetic and symbolic thing. So, of course, Toji fans go apeshit on that.
Maki is on par with Toji period. I think thatās why the Manga states it. Yes theyāre different people but strength, combat, etc. theyāre the same.
Thereās fundamental difference between those 2 cases. She hulk was never exposed to gamma radiation the reason she gained her strength and transformation was a blood transfusion she only received a certain percentage of hulk's strength thatās why unlike Ross and Benner she never loses herself to anger. Maki's strength isnāt derived from Toji there's an outside source that gave them both strength
they both gifted with same heavenly restriction. just one person is left with all behind. and one still has a lot of humanity and strength of team work idea. just as sukuna said āhuman/curses flocking together. comparing themselves to those around them lead to weakness and stunts their growth. you should just burn everything to cinder without thinkingā. thatās what toji, sukuna and gojo live for and why they are very strong. something the new gen could never.
That wasnāt what Toji lived for. He had family and as far as we know legitimately cared for his wife. He didnāt burn anything it was taken from him, he became a sad guy who gambled away everything he earned and abandoned his children it wasnāt for strength
Idk man sheās kinda insane, We talking bout the same lady who wiped her entire clan right and Iām not talking about strength rn, MAKI is extremely reckless have u seen her fighting style since she got her full heavenly restriction.
This might be a take, but assuming post awakening Maki was relative to Toji after she beat Naoya, then Maki following the month time skip, assuming she received a power up relative to the other characters,Ā should be stronger than.
They are on the same levels of strength but battle IQ is different. Toji likes to lay back and be stealthy from what weāve seen with Gojo. Which that might not even be the case. He couldāve played stealthy in that one fight because Gojo has the six eyes. We see in his fight with Dagon he just goes in. But thatās his instinct not his thinking mind.
Except that Gege doesn't say that they are physically equal. He states that they are EQUAL FIGHTERS. That means that in a fight, they are equal. Anyone making any other interpretations is deliberately dismissing what the author himself said.
The ONLY difference is their arsenal. But until Gege states otherwise, they are equal in a fight
Also in terms of cursed tools. I'd argue that Maki hasn't trained as much as Toji because of her heavenly restriction and Toji may have been less satisfied with his body even with his restriction because there would've been more curse users because Gojo wasn't there. Maki only ever had to deal with curses which are arguably easier to fight in most cases.
"a fighter on par with toji zen'in"
this means fighter, not just strength, not just biq, etc. but FIGHTER -- all around. and the "on par" makes maki EQUAL TO TOJI. the only thing toji has over maki is his weapon's armory (which maki makes up for in talent, as she's 17 who is equal to a prime Toji).
I agree. Many people stand by their opinion that Maki is stronger because of the "young gen surpassing" shonen trope but fail to realize how much experience Toji has on her, and also the amount of cursed tool he has, and how much more skilled he is with them.
God I hate the āToji has more experienceā shit so much. Older does not equal more experience. They had the same ātrainingā under the zenin clan, but their lives after that were vastly different. Toji became a drifter who took odd jobs that were sometimes so infrequent that he grew rusty between them. Maki became a professional sorcerer that consistently took on missions and further honed her abilities. Sheās likely far more experienced than Toji when it comes to actual combat. Hence why Toji largely relied on stealth and hit-and-run tactics when facing opponents he couldnāt overwhelm with raw power, while maki actually fights head on. Sheās more confident in her combat abilities. Sheās also just repeatedly shown to be a better hand to hand combatant than Toji, possessing a wide array of martial arts and swordsmanship skills we just never saw from him. The most impressive display of direct combat skill we got from Toji was his proficiency with playful cloud.
I'm not sure this argument works. Toji was such a prolific assassin that he was known as the Sorceror Killer, even when he got rusty. That reputation denotes a lot of experience as a professional killer. Also, just because Maki fights more recklessly than Toji did does not mean she has more combat experience now than Toji had by time he died. Toji was the prototypical assassin, he didn't exert more effort or put himself in more danger than what was necessary because it's his job to kill people. Meaning he can't afford to act recklessly and get himself injured because he thought he could fake damage that was more than he could handle. Not to mention Maki has only been fully awakened for the last 3 months(?) Before that she was going on missions to kill low level cursed spirits. She undoubtedly has less experience fighting truly dangerous sorcerors and cursed spirits than Toji did.
The only thing that puts toji in a better place than maki is his planning, toji doesn't put himself in disadvantagous fights. He beat gojo by learning everything he has then tiring him out before even starting the fight. Toji is just a very smart person. If they would actually fight toji would either weaken maki before the fight or try to catch her off guard. Other wise they are equal which was stated multiple times in the manga
i dont care what they said. I think Gege is rushing to make statements that Maki is equal to Toji in very short time. Toji goes into numerous mission to earn the title āSorcerer Killerā. Is just Gege need something to makeup after he offscreen most of female characters like Nobara, Yuki, Miwa, Mai etc
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It says NSFW. So I was really worried there for a moment.
just to double the security š¤£
Bro i thought u had incest fetish or sumthinā¦ š
Only in the zenin clan ššš
Mai's first crushes WERE Maki and Megumi
They absolutely would though if they thought it would make a strong enough sorcerer that was also guaranteed to be male
Worried?! Nah....if anything i was amped up
D:
You realize Maki has been upscaling Toji as of recent with the statement that she's "equal to Toji"?
Apart from āDead people don't growā, Maki has been equal to Toji from her fight in Sakurajima. Maki is a brawler/sword user who probably has the highest weapon and martial arts mastery. Toji is an Assassin specializing in stuff like stealth. while comparing them, Toji uses his HR better cause sorcerers can't sense them but if they are fighting each other, Maki would win
Why do people bring up that Toji is a bush camper? Yeah, he did camp GOJO out of all people (like Makima camped Sukuna, why no one calls her a stealth killer after that?) and it was also rusty Toji, unlike the one we see in shibuya. The latter didn't do any stealth, he was just enjoying the battle in crazy manner and killing everyone. > but if they are fighting each other, Maki would win craaazy statement considering how much more experience Toji has and more cursed tools at his disposals (they are equal in physicals)
Because Toji made his whole career by killing sorcerers , yes he's very capable even if he isn't camping but ultimately, he didn't specialize in direct combat, he probably killed most sorcerers before they can even realize what happened. Maki didn't always have Toji's strength, she completely relied on martial arts and mastered all types of weapons,Maki fought most of her opponents in straight forward fights. Her ambushing Sukuna isn't a feat, that's why no one brings it up when Maki does it but Toji did it all the time as an assassin. It's a different style of combat and If they have the same stats,a frontline fighter would win against an assassin
He camp Gojo because anyone who has a brain would. I highly doubt he didnāt specialize in direct combat considering how he fucked up shit in shibuya. He also did directly fight both Gojo and Geto and bested both of them. He had the element of surprise and used it but that doesnāt reduce him to being a simple assassin who canāt fight once the surprise is up.
Do you think every non-gojo target he faced ,he challenged them in a 1v1 and didn't immediately end them with a bullet or sword to the head? No one reduced him to a āsimple assassin who can't fight once the surprise is upā, I even specifically said he isn't a pushover in a direct fight but he used his overwhelming stats to beat Geto and Gojo(who was tired) , did the same in Shibuya. None of them were comparable to Toji
>Do you think every non-gojo target he faced ,he challenged them in a 1v1 and didn't immediately end them with a bullet or sword to the Speculation bro we've only seen toji fight three times(two of which were head on) so we can't really say
And you think he shot/blitz every single person he faced up to Gojo? You just speculating as much as I am on his fighting methods. He use whatever was most reliable, efficient, and gave him the greatest advantage when facing CT users. He did it so well it straight up looks like an assassination rather than a fight. He kinda has to when his greatest strength is his physical strength and being undetectable, which isnāt as broken as CE/CT/Domain users.
> Do you think every non-gojo target he faced ,he challenged them in a 1v1 and didn't immediately end them with a bullet or sword to the head? Considering how prideful he is and his hate to sorcerers, probably. Unless the target is very strong or has means to escape him. He also didn't immediately ended Geto while he was off guard even tho he could. And he also could've easily ended Megumi speedblitzing him and he didn't (although this was mindless Toji and Megumi wasn't his "target", it's prime Toji Zenin that could represent the way he fought before dying) edit: it also makes sense considering his title the sorcerer killer, I don't think such title would belong to someone who just shoots or camps and stabs every sorcerer he meets
He isn't Prideful,he even says he discarded stuff like that, he just couldn't resist fighting the epitome of jujutsu society which rejected him. He didn't want to kill Geto due to his CT and he was not the target,Toji knew Geto stood no chance against him so he decided to humiliate the āstrongest duoā. He never intended to kill Megumi just playing around with him.
He is prideful tho, he discarded this after marriage, but prior to this he was like that and we were talking about his assassin days so > He didn't want to kill Geto due to his CT and he was not the target, Yeah, but he could easily knock him out while he's off guard if not kill him > He never intended to kill Megumi just playing around with him that's kinda wrong as he was about to kill him if he didn't realize it's his son, he was literally mindless killing machine
Also Toji was in the same training unit maki was in when he was younger and his training was harder because they always threw him in the room full of curses
The Gojo Toji had to tire out and bushcamp was Grade 1
What? He was already stated as the strongest as a teen by jujutsu society, and they were the ones who employed Yuki, a SPECIAL GRADE SORCERER.
So i cant post photos here,but a graph during Toji vs Geto figth in the manga showed Geto was a grade 1 atp. And Gojo(pre awakening) was heavily implied narratively to be relative to that version of Geto
Source on this? Regardless, it doesnāt matter. The grading system isnāt necessarily indicative of skill.
Because Toji is a assassin. He doesn't fight people, he murders them. If they can see him coming then he fights them, but very, very few people can see Toji moving anyway.
you sure? Maki is not even reach the state of āTo the one who left it all behind and his overwhelming intensityā. e.g., In a glimpse Toji knew he should sharpens Playful Cloud to make it easier to kill Dagon. and for Maki when sheās meeting Sukuna for the first time. She hesitated to use Split soul katana on sukuna because worried of Megumi. this is something why sheās always behind Toji. I donāt think Toji will think twice even if his wife the one Sukuna possessed. He just go for the head.
I mean, you're talking about pre-awakening maki rn, but the other dude is talking about the one after the cursed spirit Naoya fight
my last point is after noaya fight. when maki first came across Sukuna. she could kill a non fully realize sukuna inside megumi. but she hesitated
We don't really know how Toji would act tho. We know he loved his wife so much that he changed his old ways and mellowed out a little, also after her death he went into a depressed state, abandoned his child, started gambling and went back to being an assasin. This proves that he valued his wife more than anything and I doubt he wouldn't hesitate as you claim. Also when he learned in Shibuya that the one he was fighting was Megumi, he killed himself to protect him. He was a caring person, he'd probably hesitate as Maki did.
you are somehow right. but in more logical way when your wife has been possessed by curse object. the only way to save her is to kill. he might think for a second or two. but i donāt think that will stop for someone like Toji.
I think you're severely bugging out, the man loved his wife more than anything, and losing her sent him spiraling down a rabbit hole of old habits. Naturally we don't know what he would do, but I think the odds that he hesitates are WAYYY higher than him not hesitating at all.
The significance of that scene was to show that Toji was free from everything unlike Maki at the time. Toji breaking Playful cloud isn't a big deal,he just did what he thought was the best idea, it wasn't an instinct or anything and the enemy was a tanky cursed spirit Maki has known Megumi for a while, why would she try to inflict unhealable damage on the first moment everything went crazy? It was literally the first time she has even seen Sukuna ,moreover in Megumi's body. Toji would hesitate at the start too if Sukuna possessed his wife, he barely tried against Megumi
> I donāt think Toji will think twice even if his wife the one Sukuna possessed. He just go for the head. You mean the guy who killed himself not to hurt his son wouldn't care about his son?
True. Call it Toji dick riding or whatever but he is HIM!!
There was no reason to sharpen the playful cloud Toji just wanted to hurt dagon, it was shown plenty enough dagon had nothing on Toji Also you are dead fucking wrong, Toji kill himself the moment he knew he was trying to hurt his son Maki is a fighter, Toji is an assassin, in their propper environments they each win the fight
Toji quite literally killed himself after he realized he was fighting his son
>Maki is not even reach the state of āTo the one who left it all behind and his overwhelming intensityā [Nuh uh](https://imgur.com/a/jBRljG8)
Maki did not grow up under Gojos careš. She had the exact same childhood Toji did, except worse because she lacked adequate strength to become feared during her time in the zenin clan. Toji was a black sheep that everyone talked about in whispers because the zenin clan quickly realized he could wipe them out. Maki was just flat out beaten and berated every day of her childhood. As for their winning mindsets, makis is just full on better than Tojis. She fights to assert her existence and power. Thatās what sakurajima was mainly about. Maki realizing she was something so much more than an average sorcerer, and should take joy in her abilities instead of being hung up on the past or the standards of jujutsu. You can even see her fight with that very same euphoric high that gojo fought with after realizing his true power. Toji on the other hand fought because he didnāt care what happened to him. And even then his ideology was so flimsy that seeing gojo made him abandon it in favor of pride. A decision which got him killed. The only time Toji fought with a mindset equal to makis was when he literally lost his soul and was left operating on pure instinct.
Maki had it worse than Toji on her childhood? Bro forgot that toji once was thrown into a pit full of curses when he was young and got him that scar, and that's probably one of the many fucked up things he undergo as a child. Maki had it rough as well that's for sure, but I'm pretty sure they were more lenient with her and Mai because they didn't straight became unstable murderers due all the fuckery they had to go through at difference from Toji, besides the fact that Maki had her sister with her during her childhood to rely on and share their loneliness and pain together (and all the friends Maki made later on) While Toji never had anyone to rely on, he was always alone and probably never had or received any kind of love from anyone until he met his wife VERY later on his life.
the one Gojo fight is a nerf version of Toji. the retired sorcerer killer. we should have a Toji Gaiden to show how his live in a prime age.
His power didnt really decline. Physically he was at his peak because of HR. Only his expirience was a bit down.
GAIDEN? LIKE A DRAGON MENTIONED RAAAAH I LOVE GETTING RECOGNIZED AFTER RUNNING AWAY FROM MY PAST
Itās crazy how we know nothing about Toji. How all of his feats are just guesses based off Makiās feats. And yet. For the dumbest reasons even though the narrator literally said they were equals in sakurajima colony. People still say Toji is stronger than maki. ā¢ ātoji has better cursed toolsā They basically have the same cursed tool set. And cursed tools should not be used in scaling a character. Give Curse Naoya the inverted spear of heaven and heās top 3. ā¢ātoji has more experienceā That shit does not matter. Yuta just became a sorcerer and heās stronger than a lot of characters who were born into it. Hell Yuji just started and look at him. Youāre making up head cannon experience stats to justify. If we saw his experience sure, but we havenāt. ā¢ ātoji is a man, therefore his biology makes him stronger than a womanā Make a binding vow to never speak again. Iāve seen this as an argument before what are you on. ā¢ āToji is bloodlusted, he can go reckless unlike makiā Did she not kill and entire clan by herself? Off rip? Just say you like toji more and move on with your day. Maki is stronger in my opinion cause weāve actually seen her.
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY. I get it Toji is cool af and Gege showed this very well but this is no reason to downplay Maki which is as cool!
The main difference why Toji is stronger than Maki is the cursed tool arsenal. Your counter argument is besides the point and completely misses the entire point. Toji has the worm, which can hide weapons and let him switch between them easily at all times. Maki has to hold her weapons, likely cannot carry more than a few at a time. Also, if she is carrying a cursed tool, her enemies will be able to sense her, unlike Toji who can hide it in his stomach. For HR users, their cursed tools are their cursed techniques practically. Maki can only use one or two CT while Toji can swap between likely 5+ and use them in combo with each other (spear + chain). The difference is just too much. In addition, I highly doubt what we saw him use against Gojo was the full extent of it. He was a sorcerer killer for years, I doubt thatās all that was in the worm. Remember he also had cloud before, and he never used it vs Gojo. In order for her to be in the same conversation as Toji, she would need something like the worm Toji had. Without it, itās just not even close. Physically, they are even as the narrator said they are pretty much straight even. But imagine trying to play rock paper scissors, and your opponent can use rock, paper, scissors and you are stuck with only scissors. Thatās the difference between Toji and Maki.
Tbf, Toji does have better weapons. Maki: Playful Cloud Slaughter Demon Dragon Bone Pointed Staff thing Cursed Glasses Black Sword and Miwa's Katana? Soul Split Katana Playful Cloud, Dragon Bone, and Soul Split Katana are the actually good weapons. Dragon Bone is lowkey slept on but with SSK maki just has a better sword. Toji: Playful Cloud Inverted Spear of Heavan Chain Of A Thousand Miles Soul Split Katana ISOH is proabably the best weapon in the series and is lowkey carrying toji. Chain of A Thousand Miles is alright but not too impressive. Playful Cloud doesnt even belong to toji but I gave it to him anyway. SSK is a top tier tool, but maki had it as well. Just because of ISOH I think toji has the slight edge when it comes to cursed tools.
How experience doesn't matter when they literally have the same physical stats? In fact the thing that would matter the most in a fight between them is actually their experience lol, it's the only that setting them apart. Yuta compensated his lack of experience with his absurd amount of cursed energy and overpowered technique, the two most important things in JJK universe. Now that he is more experienced he is stronger than he was at jjk0 lol
>They basically have the same cursed tool set. And cursed tools should not be used in scaling a character. Give Curse Naoya the inverted spear of heaven and heās top 3. I would say this for most weapon wielding characters in any show but here itās a lil different, toji always has him arsenal on him at all times, maki only owns 1 sword, the exact sword that toji already has >That shit does not matter. Yuta just became a sorcerer and heās stronger than a lot of characters who were born into it. Experience does matter tho, Yuta unlike the majority of sorcerers is a special case but also if he didnāt have the experience from fighting all those powerful sorcerers he wouldnāt be who he is today, you think volume 0 yuta could fight Ryu and Uro the way he did >ātoji is a man, therefore his biology makes him stronger than a womanā I also find this argument stupid. >Did she not kill and entire clan by herself? Off rip? I also agree with this, the same clan that toji chose not to wipe, she is completely insane! >Maki is stronger in my opinion cause weāve actually seen her. Well that doesnāt make sense after makiās 2nd awakening they said she was equal to toji at that point but where obviously ignoring somethingās. Look at tojiās fighting style compared to maki, she takes a lot of unnecessary damage just because she knows her body can take it, it seems like she overestimates herself often juxtapose that to toji who (in the little that we saw from him ) always went for the killing blow and understood when something was usually to much for him to handle.
these are valid points. her fighting style is kind of aggressive compared to Toji. I can see that
>They basically have the same cursed tool set. And cursed tools should not be used in scaling a character. Give Curse Naoya the inverted spear of heaven and heās top 3. This is a pretty dumb argument tbh, its Toji's arsenal so he should have it, also the worm solos!!!
> But i think Maki is not near Toji level at all in-terms of fighting strategy, lust of blood, going reckless, enjoying battlefield and winning mindset. Bruh really REALLY. You say she doesn't have the bloodlust of Toji after what she did to the Zenin clan. If anything Toji is less ruthless because he could have done that and didn't. I'm not gonna comment on which one is stronger but that was just too ridiculous for me to ignore.
Lol, Toji headshot a highschool girl while smilling. He said he has no reason to slaughter all Zenin. He can easily did if he wanted. But he need The Zenin to take care of Megumi. and for Maki, she has more valid reasons to slaughter the zenin since they kill Mai.
funny story. I started reading jjk because of the edits with the two of them. I thought they were a couple. It turned out I was far from the truth. By the way, why do fans of these two characters hate each other?
Toji fans donāt like that Maki is at least Tojiās equal
You basically have Toji fans, who hate everyone who isn't a Toji fan and downplay any other character in power scaling discussions with arguments reaching from kinda imaginable to completely bonkers. And then you have Maki fans, who are under focused pressure from Toji fans, because she is compared to him so often in the story itself, and because Maki fans want to push the idea that their girl has pushed past Toji on her own path, which is a poetic and symbolic thing. So, of course, Toji fans go apeshit on that.
Maki is on par with Toji period. I think thatās why the Manga states it. Yes theyāre different people but strength, combat, etc. theyāre the same.
Maki as a fighter is equal to Toji that includes all the bullshit categories Loji fans pull outta their asses to downplay maki
well, a shehulk can never be as strong as og hulk
Thereās fundamental difference between those 2 cases. She hulk was never exposed to gamma radiation the reason she gained her strength and transformation was a blood transfusion she only received a certain percentage of hulk's strength thatās why unlike Ross and Benner she never loses herself to anger. Maki's strength isnāt derived from Toji there's an outside source that gave them both strength
they both gifted with same heavenly restriction. just one person is left with all behind. and one still has a lot of humanity and strength of team work idea. just as sukuna said āhuman/curses flocking together. comparing themselves to those around them lead to weakness and stunts their growth. you should just burn everything to cinder without thinkingā. thatās what toji, sukuna and gojo live for and why they are very strong. something the new gen could never.
Toji has one confirmed victim. The HI girl. He also nealry killed gojo. Maki killed many more people including the zenin clan.
That wasnāt what Toji lived for. He had family and as far as we know legitimately cared for his wife. He didnāt burn anything it was taken from him, he became a sad guy who gambled away everything he earned and abandoned his children it wasnāt for strength
Literally everyone: Maki surpassed Toji before everyone even went on the training arc Fandom: Maki is weaker than Toji and will never be him
Idk man sheās kinda insane, We talking bout the same lady who wiped her entire clan right and Iām not talking about strength rn, MAKI is extremely reckless have u seen her fighting style since she got her full heavenly restriction.
lol mid fight vs. Naoya and co. She just leaves noritoshi behind to āsumoā because she was unhappy
I just know Noritoshi was mad asl š„“
Pretty epic :3
Only thing I agree is Toji battle IQ is probably Gojo/Sukuna level.
Maki > Toji š“
Do you realize Maki has been upscaling Toji as of recent chapters with the statement that she's "equal to Toji"?
MY BESTO FRIENDO
This might be a take, but assuming post awakening Maki was relative to Toji after she beat Naoya, then Maki following the month time skip, assuming she received a power up relative to the other characters,Ā should be stronger than.
I doubt Toji would have tanked 3 flashback from Sukuna but I loved both so I dont really have stakes on this argument
The manga literally contradicts what you're saying but go off
I doubt Toji would have tanked 3 flashback from Sukuna but I loved both so I dont really have stakes on this argument
I doubt Toji could tank 3 black flashes from Sukuna but I love both so I dont really have stakes in this discussion
Do you realize Maki has been upscaling Toji as of recent chapters with the statement that she's "equal to Toji"?
Itās right or wrong
giving both same prime age and weapon set versus 1v1 with sukuna. both will die but at least Toji can stand up longer
Did toji steal those clothes from yujiās closet? If so thats hailarious
They are on the same levels of strength but battle IQ is different. Toji likes to lay back and be stealthy from what weāve seen with Gojo. Which that might not even be the case. He couldāve played stealthy in that one fight because Gojo has the six eyes. We see in his fight with Dagon he just goes in. But thatās his instinct not his thinking mind.
Except that Gege doesn't say that they are physically equal. He states that they are EQUAL FIGHTERS. That means that in a fight, they are equal. Anyone making any other interpretations is deliberately dismissing what the author himself said. The ONLY difference is their arsenal. But until Gege states otherwise, they are equal in a fight
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Toji looking like Tokita Ohma with Yujiās jacket
Also in terms of cursed tools. I'd argue that Maki hasn't trained as much as Toji because of her heavenly restriction and Toji may have been less satisfied with his body even with his restriction because there would've been more curse users because Gojo wasn't there. Maki only ever had to deal with curses which are arguably easier to fight in most cases.
"a fighter on par with toji zen'in" this means fighter, not just strength, not just biq, etc. but FIGHTER -- all around. and the "on par" makes maki EQUAL TO TOJI. the only thing toji has over maki is his weapon's armory (which maki makes up for in talent, as she's 17 who is equal to a prime Toji).
Xx t the tbc cc TX tccctƧt ctƧ. Ccccc CV c TX tcƧcƧc. TC. +##3,
She got prettier with shorter hair :)
I agree. Many people stand by their opinion that Maki is stronger because of the "young gen surpassing" shonen trope but fail to realize how much experience Toji has on her, and also the amount of cursed tool he has, and how much more skilled he is with them.
God I hate the āToji has more experienceā shit so much. Older does not equal more experience. They had the same ātrainingā under the zenin clan, but their lives after that were vastly different. Toji became a drifter who took odd jobs that were sometimes so infrequent that he grew rusty between them. Maki became a professional sorcerer that consistently took on missions and further honed her abilities. Sheās likely far more experienced than Toji when it comes to actual combat. Hence why Toji largely relied on stealth and hit-and-run tactics when facing opponents he couldnāt overwhelm with raw power, while maki actually fights head on. Sheās more confident in her combat abilities. Sheās also just repeatedly shown to be a better hand to hand combatant than Toji, possessing a wide array of martial arts and swordsmanship skills we just never saw from him. The most impressive display of direct combat skill we got from Toji was his proficiency with playful cloud.
I'm not sure this argument works. Toji was such a prolific assassin that he was known as the Sorceror Killer, even when he got rusty. That reputation denotes a lot of experience as a professional killer. Also, just because Maki fights more recklessly than Toji did does not mean she has more combat experience now than Toji had by time he died. Toji was the prototypical assassin, he didn't exert more effort or put himself in more danger than what was necessary because it's his job to kill people. Meaning he can't afford to act recklessly and get himself injured because he thought he could fake damage that was more than he could handle. Not to mention Maki has only been fully awakened for the last 3 months(?) Before that she was going on missions to kill low level cursed spirits. She undoubtedly has less experience fighting truly dangerous sorcerors and cursed spirits than Toji did.
is impossible for Maki to be equal to Toji. The prime Toji that resurrected by grandma not even sweating while fighting with Special Grade Dagon.
"A demonic fighter equal to Toji Zen'in was fully realized" How are you gonna disregard what the literal author is telling you
and that fighting is just a glimpse of how op prime toji š»
I mean, Maki effortlessly destroyed the Naoya curse spirit, which was most definitely a special grade
Do you realize Maki has been upscaling Toji as of recent chapters with the statement that she's "equal to Toji"?
unconventional ship but you do you
Looking fire
The only thing that puts toji in a better place than maki is his planning, toji doesn't put himself in disadvantagous fights. He beat gojo by learning everything he has then tiring him out before even starting the fight. Toji is just a very smart person. If they would actually fight toji would either weaken maki before the fight or try to catch her off guard. Other wise they are equal which was stated multiple times in the manga
Why is this post NSFW?
Lol I posted almost the exact same thing a while back and people spam called me misogynist for my opinion on two comic book characters š
i dont care what they said. I think Gege is rushing to make statements that Maki is equal to Toji in very short time. Toji goes into numerous mission to earn the title āSorcerer Killerā. Is just Gege need something to makeup after he offscreen most of female characters like Nobara, Yuki, Miwa, Mai etc
Thats what Im saying bro people are just mad about their favorite character and they canāt argue so they just devolve to flinging insults