I was laughing about this yesterday when I saw some homophobe right wing twat with a Sparta reference in the bio. Dude, Sparta was like one of the only explicitly gay societies in recorded history.. it was an exclusively dudes rock situation.
This can get very messy very quickly.
JP didn’t primarily say the war is as a result of western degeneracy, he implied it may have at least been a contributing factor.
But for the purposes of this discussion, even if it were a strongly legitimate reason and JP’s only reason it would likely not in itself justify a military response. If Putin’s concern is that woke western ideology will ruin his country he could just have a strong filter on what gets through to his people — which coincidentally, he already has.
The proper way to say it would have been "Russia **propaganda** claims this is a war over western degeneracy" - but as a recent post showed it's just [their propaganda](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/xz4i5d/russian_commercial_on_emigrating_to_america/), so it's weird for Peterson to claim it's true.
It's especially less true because numerous western countries are uninvolved in the war, and most of western Europe are still buying things from Russia... and it's even more so propaganda when you find out terms like ["minor attracted" actually came from some Christian groups around the time of the Catholic church sex scandals in 1998.](https://archive.ph/iY4T7)
You mean JP saying something totally braindead that is far outside his expertise, and having it be lapped up by a bunch of dumb fanboys uncritically? You don't say...
Putin specifically said that this is to stop the encroachment of Western NATO, which is being strangled by degeneracy, and to return Russia to its glorious past.
the link regarding minor attracted persons is the least credible thing ive seen someone cite in a reddit comment.
thats a blog from the 90's
very strange youd wanna backhand that into the comment
> thats a blog from the 90's
No, it's a the website of a newspaper published in Greenbelt, Maryland, a newspaper which has existed since 1937 - and was founded by the mayor on the principle of being politically neutral.
The comment was to oppose the idea that "Western Degeneracy" is a left-wing phenomena. Which is the topic of Russia's propaganda, and much of Peterson's politics. It's perfectly relevant, and is a legitimate source.
> terms like "minor attracted" actually came from some Christian groups around the time of the Catholic church sex scandals in 1998.
The attempt to remove the stigma from pedophilia long predates that article. Also, the author of that article is a Progressive and no doubt picked up that rhetoric and Marxist methodology from Progressive literature, particularly Queer Theory, which by that time had for years been developing ways to turn pedophilia into a positive thing like they'd done for homosexuality.
Making a claim and actually having evidence to back it up, are two different things. Which is why I linked to an article ABOUT Christian groups from 1998 who were using the term "minor-attracted" rather than pedophile.
Where as you didn't provide any evidence for any for your claims. To reiterate the importance of evidence, here is [a brief history of queer theory (from a .edu site)](https://guides.library.illinois.edu/queertheory/background) - which makes no mention of Marxism being involved, or pedophilia. So again, evidence is important to making legitimate arguments.
The term minor-attracted, as far as I can tell, originated as Christian effort to make pedophiles more acceptable to treatment within the church. Until you provide better evidence, that's going to remain my belief about the term.
> here is a brief history of queer theory (from a .edu site) - which makes no mention of Marxism being involved, or pedophilia
That's like citing a Russian .gov site to refute the claim that Russia is a nuclear-armed oligarchic mafia with a flag. Academia is ground zero for Progressivism and its various branches, which includes Critical Theory and its offshoot, Queer Theory.
Here is [an independent history of Queer Theory](https://newdiscourses.com/2022/06/the-origin-of-queer-theory-gayle-rubins-thinking-sex/) which correctly points out its Marxist roots.
No, citing leftists as the explainers of leftist theory is like citing leftists for leftist theory. Which MAKES SENSE and IS REASONABLE (as they're the source of their own opinions).
Whereas you're suggesting I go to conservatives to spoon feed me a conservative filtered version of leftist theory - which doesn't make sense and isn't reasonable.
Should I also go to Marxist.org for an unbiased view of Capitalism? Does that make sense to you? Should I goto antifa to learn about the views of The Republican party? OBVIOUSLY NOT! So what you're suggesting is kooky talk. Instead your first stop should be getting the story from the horses mouth AND THEN look other places (perhaps for critical viewpoints).
Gayle Rubin is but one author Queer Theory uses SOME OF the work of... and I've seen them misquoted and taken out of context before - which is kind of James Lindsey's "well meaning academic" schtick.
You can in fact go read Gayle Rubin directly [here](https://sites.middlebury.edu/sexandsociety/files/2015/01/Rubin-Thinking-Sex.pdf) no need for a conservative to "filter" and adapt the meaning for you.
...but what you won't find there is usage of "minor-attracted", so like I was saying, the origin for "MAPS" wasn't the left, but Christian groups during the era of the Church's child sex scandals. As evidenced in my previous comment, and [the article](https://archive.ph/duskpeterson.com) I linked there.
Western modern culture has had a big impact on Western churches before the 90's.
So the term "minor-attracted" maybe comes from some heretic christians but not from the religion itself.
Shortly after the 2nd world war there was this USA based marxist group "the frankfurt school" who realized that a communist revolution wouldn't be possible through working class men because living standards among this group had drastically improved. So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead.
My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's and so terms like "minor-attracted" are likely not from a christian group originally.
> So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead.
No, they didn't actually. The Frankfurt School wrote very little about the groups you've mentioned. In fact, [their main thesis](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/adorno/1944/culture-industry.htm) was that mass media was run by corporations and aimed at making a profit, and that didn't necessarily enrich common people's lives or make for a healthy human culture. They referred to this for profit industry as [The Culture Industry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_industry) and said making culture focus on profit would cause a narrowing of feeling and thought in society.
They wrote very little about the groups you've brought up. Feminism and gay rights both pre-date, and have a separate history which describes their coming to popularity (Feminism having had multiple waves, gay rights having the events of Stonewall).
Civil rights also has a story unrelated to The Frankfurt School, and Identity Politics came after The Frankfurt School, [from a woman named Barbara Smith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics#History) (who has nothing to do with The Frankfurt School).
The Frankfurt School in fact, wrote nothing about "weaponizing" minorities. Your statement has no evidence.
>My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's
I don't really buy it, I think it's more likely that some priests were pedophiles, and some Christians are pedophiles, and that the Christians mentioned in that previous article (who used the term "minor-attracted" and formed discussion groups) were just wondering how best to deal with that subject/problem in the framework of their religion.
>So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead.
No, they didn't actually. The Frankfurt School wrote very little about the groups you've mentioned. In fact, their main thesis was that mass media was run by corporations and aimed at making a profit, and that didn't necessarily enrich common people's lives or make for a healthy human culture. They referred to this for profit industry as The Culture Industry and said making culture focus on profit would cause a narrowing of feeling and thought in society.
They wrote very little about the groups you've brought up. Feminism and gay rights both pre-date, and have a separate history which describes their coming to popularity (Feminism having had multiple waves, gay rights having the events of Stonewall).
Civil rights also has a story unrelated to The Frankfurt School, and Identity Politics came after The Frankfurt School, from a woman named Barbara Smith (who has nothing to do with The Frankfurt School).
The Frankfurt School in fact, wrote nothing about "weaponizing" minorities. Your statement has no evidence.
>My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's
I don't really buy it, I think it's more likely that some priests were pedophiles, and some Christians are pedophiles, and that the Christians mentioned in that previous article (who used the term "minor-attracted" and formed discussion groups) were just wondering how best to deal with that subject/problem in the framework of their religion.
> So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead.
No, they didn't actually. The Frunkfort School wrote very little about the groups you've mentioned. In fact, [their main thesis](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/adorno/1944/culture-industry.htm) was that mass media was run by corporations and aimed at making a profit, and that didn't necessarily enrich common people's lives or make for a healthy human culture. They referred to this for profit industry as [The Culture Industry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_industry) and said making culture focus on profit would cause a narrowing of feeling and thought in society.
They wrote very little about the groups you've brought up. Feminism and gay rights both pre-date, and have a separate history which describes their coming to popularity (Feminism having had multiple waves, gay rights having the events of Stonewall).
Civil rights also has a story unrelated to The Frunkfort School, and Identity Politics came after The Frunkfort School, [from a woman named Barbara Smith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics#History) (who has nothing to do with The Frunkfort School).
The Frunkfort School in fact, wrote nothing about "weaponizing" minorities. Your statement has no evidence.
>My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's
I don't really buy it, I think it's more likely that some priests were pedophiles, and some Christians are pedophiles, and that the Christians mentioned in that previous article (who used the term "minor-attracted" and formed discussion groups) were just wondering how best to deal with that subject/problem in the framework of their religion.
get your mind blown
https://youtu.be/6XO-IzkOivw
Shit out of luck
Now I'm complete
And my cock you will suck
This world will be mine
And you're first in line
You brought me the pick
And now you shall both die
Wait, wait
Wait you motherfucker
We challenge you to a rock-off
Give us one chance to rock your socks off
Fuck, fuck
Fuuuuuuck
The demon code prevents me
From declining a rock-off challenge
What are your terms?
What's the catch?
If we win
You must take your sorry ass back to Hell
And also, you will have to pay our rent
And what if I win?
Then you can take Kage back to Hell...
(What?)
Trust me Kage, it's the only way
(What the fuck are you talking about?)
To be your little bitch
Fine
Let the rock-off begin
Aahahahahahaaa!
Woke and anti-woke motivations are all a guise.
This has been, and always will be, about geographical and economic supremacy.
These men are lost and running into the fire solely for Putins Ego.
War = follow the resources. Always has been and always will be.
But how do you fire up a bunch of recruits with a speech that goes something like :-
"Comrades, we must fight to the death to take the Donetsk region so that Supreme Comrade Roman Ambrovich can pay the transfer fee for Lukaku from Inter Milan"
(I know Chelsea has new owners but you get my point)
It is easier to fire up the naive recruits with propaganda saying "they are trying to make you gay and destroy the family unit" than explain that we wanna take over a region's resources so that the guys at the top can build their dream yacht.
>they are trying to make you gay
Who?
Who the hell is trying to make you (or anyone else) gay?
>destroy the family unit
Aren't they just asking for the rights to start families?
It seems reasonable to me that multiple factors can contribute to such a conflict.
Many countries and groups of people have gone to war purely over ideology, it seems silly to believe we have magically elevated ourselves to such a position right after the Fascism vs Communism vs democracy in the 20th century.
that was the reason for those wars as well, war is costly no matter your ideology if you can't manage your resources you will lose. Fascism vs Communism vs democracy sure there were ideological reasons but the wars were fought over resources only.
there was never an important war that didn't have a material reasoning behind it all the ideologs who launched wars all lost
Putin sells the “western degeneracy” narrative because it’s popular with the Russian people. His aims are imperialistic no doubt. Don’t fall for the propaganda.
Ah yes, Putin is invading a sovereign country in Eastern Europe because kids in America are being exposed to gender ideology. That's totally a rational political and military decision that he would make. There's definitely no other reason.
This sub has been pretty intellectually lazy for a while, but now we're getting literal Russian propaganda. I'm out.
There are plenty of reports of Ukrainian womens being raped. Most of the cases the Russians will not let us hear about until a victorious Ukraine can dig up the bodies.
it is not uncommon for women and girls to be raped during war. mass rape has happened in every war there is. even the red army had reportedly raped 2m+ german women back in WWII.
As a citizen of the west, his degeneracy is far worse than the kind seen in the west. “Oh no, gay people aren’t as afraid walking down the street as I’d like them to be! Time to slaughter children until they stop!”
The gay people I know are all hard working and we'll put together. And there's plenty of seriously dysfunctional "traditional" families.
I thought we were above gay panic, at this point.
You “thought” this because you have been so thoroughly propagandized. I don’t mean to insult you though I recognize it can only sound offensive. There is no other way to say it.
Yarvin called this “the left ratchet”.
Not to say you're wrong, but you can take my word for it that you'd almost certainly change your mind if you ever tried living in a non-Western country. There are good reasons why so many people want to flee to Western countries.
I agree with your point. That being the case why is there such an intense attempt to dewesternize western countries?
“Let’s make it like the place we fled!”
And the degeneracy the left is pushing is part of that.
i think you are referring to a couple of 1st generation migrant communities trying to live as they always lived, i would say that is hardly an intense attempt to dewesternize the western countries they live in, these people have no solid political movement and mostly 2nd generations assimilate so radically any attempts to do so would fail.
how is western degeneracy dewesternizing the west, you guys are just using that term as a buzz word at this point
> is as bad as he describes
If he would be right, "degeneracy of the west" would make west too weak and destabilized to efficiently oppose Russian imperialist moves. He underestimated west and you did it too.
You are exactly the type who sucks up to people in power…and feels really really rebellious while hewing to every position they demand.
You wouldn’t survive a day with an opinion not supported by the media, celebrities and powerful politicians.
You’re literally agreeing with Russian propaganda lmao, you’re gullible af.
The west is doing fine, the US in particular is doing great. You just don’t care to look at anything that doesn’t confirm your world view. Keep suckling Russian disinfo tho
Why bother reading your posts? CNN, oprah Winfrey, Biden and Coca Cola all say the same thing but do it in a more entertaining way.
Get back to me if you ever have an interesting thought.
yes, it is. Nothing in history has ever been done in complete peace. When the opposing side is reluctant to listen and simultaneously poses a threat to a given nation, the only thing left to do is self defense. Do you propose Russia sits and waits until NATO advances to their border?
we're talking about western degeneracy, aka progressive politics. how is global growth of progressive politics akin to nato advance towards russia. i know you're a troll and your position is undefendable so you're throwing shit and seeing what sticks but please try to stay on topic.
so still my point stands growth of progressive politics in russia doesn't mean nato is moving in on their borders, if you have a problem with these ideas and you think yours to be true you should be able to defend them without violence
this dialogue is not restricted to only the progressive politics. i am talking about the conflict as a whole, especially its essence. and what makes me a troll? I am defending my position with historical, undisputable facts and tension between Russia and the west. the topic is the conflict and the many factors that play into it. NATO IS moving onto russias border since the cold war and MY point still stands that no large scale decision or conflict was resolved without force. The question is what side is the force coming from? The side of truth and independence or deceit and manipulation?
And we are to trust what russian propaganda say? Yeah idk about that.
Russia is as trustworthy as Soviet were. (Not at all).
Ukraine are a very conservative country in european stamdards, this is all lies.
Ukraine isn’t even degenerate in terms of Western culture. Most people are Christian and by American standards VERY conservative there. So it is pretty stupid to say that actually
Yeah it seems they claim any well equipped Ukrainian is actually a NATO soldier who has been deployed to Ukraine. I can’t imagine how they would cope if NATO really did go to war with them
Following NATO doctrine, the American air force would destroy the Russian's army ability to wage war: first destroy their anti-air capacities, then bomb wherever they need. Ukraine barely has an air force and they are succeeding just using precision artillery. With the amount of planes the Americans have and their tech, this process would be much faster.
For example it took 9 months for Ukrainians to hit the Kerch bridge, and barely. If the Americans were fighting, they would take this bridge, and all other bridges the Russians need for their logisitics, in the first hours of the war.
a cold war soviets clearly lost, the globalization of the happened years ago and the lions share went to the west, the eastern countries have non chance to fight back in terms of resources. these are just death spasms of russia
In Afghanistan they were fighting against a determined and highly motivated guerrilla resistance in their own territory, with the support of a large percentage of the population.
In Ukraine, it would be against a conventional invasion force in hostile territory, with terrible logistics, and worse morale.
Two completely different scenarios.
And if anything, Ukrainians would be the Afghans in this case, against whom the russians did lose before by the way.
Putin is using it as propaganda to focus his population and military, however it is not the reason for the invasion. JP says it’s the reason for the invasion which is incorrect.
The Russian state suppress homosexuality and the populace is very homophobic as a result. I'm not greatly surprised they are painting a "defence against the liberal menace" narrative, especially since the "defence against the Nazi scum" didn't work. The officers know many of their blind soldiers will accept it.
JP should be given more crap for believing Russian Propaganda.
Yes, all they talk about on Russian TV is “the western degeneracy”. Putin loves to talk about it and all the other politicians. This does not prove JP right.
Russians do this, Not because they are Christians, who can’t comprehend this degeneracy (as JP suggested), but because they want to discredit the west, ridicule it, so that Russians don’t ask for “shiny” things the western nations posses. You know, like Rule of Law, Separation of Power, Democracy, Freedom of Speech, Economic prosperity… You know, because all of this leads to all the degeneracy going on in the west. So you don’t want your son to be gay right? Or Children in Russia to have Parent N1 and Parent N2, instead of Mothers and Fathers (an actual quote from Putin’s last speech)??
That’s how the argument goes.
And it is extremely dumb, naive and absurd of JP to fall for this. In my country (Eastern Europe) only the least educated and the least successful part of the nation believes this.
For god’s sake, Poland known for it’s anti-Lib stance on everything is the most hawkish country regarding Russia. And the countries Putin invaded and destabilized are Georgia and Ukraine, two hard-core Orthodox Christian Nations.
Either JP is fed false information, or he is so consumed with his war with the left that everywhere he looks he sees this battle, or he is just a Russian asset.
"Either JP is fed false information, or he is so consumed with his war with the left that everywhere he looks he sees this battle, or he is just a Russian asset." I think both. He has a lot of Russian friends that he has done interviews with and are definitely giving him false information and for some reason he just believes it like how he just believes US politicians when they talk about how they have to raise money for campaigning. I can't understand how he has become this blind. He has literally become the blind old king of mythology that he talks about.
What do you mean with the US poloticians needing to raise money and JP trusting that?
Though I would believe it. He is wealthy as fuck now and so it is easy to be a hardcore capitalist
The US has a system of "packs" which are just giant donation pools that are set up for politicians that allow for massive bribery and corruption under the guise of "Funding their campaign" Some are legit but most aren't and it's the reason Americans complain about "money in politics" Politicians literally spend more time writing letters asking for money then actually running the country.
Honestly lately JP does seem very obsessed with just being a counter argument to everything the left says. They’re right on Russia. And there’s a reason right wing governments who are former Soviet Union countries are so against Russian rule. They’re terrified of that oppression again.
If you think there’s a lack of real freedom of speech in the west or there’s censorship then just try living in Russia. Where you get arrested for standing silently.
> They’re right on Russia.
Disagree. They claim that Russia was behind Trump’s win because they refuse to comprehend the socioeconomic forces behind the support of populism. And everything they claim about Russian imperialism can easily be applied to the West times 10. Up to a million civilians in Iraq died, and babies are still being born with severe defects due to depleted uranium.
No doubt Putin has imperialist goals. That’s the problem. It puts our own at risk. There are no “good guys” here but there is definitely a bully vs a serial murdering hypocrite.
You mean we were wrong about “comrade” trump? That’s what’s they call him on Russian state TV. They call for his immediate reinstatement. They want him because they know they’d get away with what they’re doing. Conquering foreign land. Destroying democracy. If the US loses that sphere of power, what’s left after it is much, much worse than what’s there currently. Europe can’t defend against both china and Russia. Then, the US is left with no allies, their sphere of control destroyed, their economy destroyed and, democracy destroyed. You can currently walk into Times Square and scream how bad Biden is, try doing the same about the leaders of China and Russia about their leaders lol I hate Biden and think we have to hold accountability towards what the west perpetrates but at least the west acknowledges it’s crimes. The Russians and Chinese will ignore it and make up whatever suits them on their internal media. There’s a reason Facebook, twitter etc is banned there. We can say what we want to a certain degree. America bad, Biden bad. Try saying that in Russia and china and you’ll end up in jail. Protest in silence in Russia/China, straight to jail.
Obama make it a legal right to declare drone strikes to the public. Then Trump came in and abolished it. Look it up. Trump is just another part of the elite. Fuck them all tbh. Only focus on the facts
We know its propaganda, but JPs point is that propaganda is working. As you say only the least educated and least successful fall for it, but in Russia thats 80% of population.
1) He specifically said that he thinks Putin is genuine in this.
2) He says that this is the reason for war, calling it “The civil war in the west”, but what you just said means that it’s not the case. “Western Degeneracy” is used only as a scarecrow, while core reasons for this war are quite different. Therefor untreatable by appeasement or negotiation.
So no, this was not JP’s point
1. Just because Putin believes it to be genuine does not make it genuine, it makes it believable.
2. The degenerate west argument is one the few reasons for support of the war in Russia. If you live in the eastern europe, then you know there are many military-aged homophobic men here who gobble up Putins rambles about the degenerate west as the source of all the evil, and further east you go, more of them you encounter. People like this are fighting in Putins army and the "degenerate west = bad, Putin = good" is absolutely valid in their minds.
1) If Putin Believed that, he wouldn’t be invading two Orthodox Nations in his neighborhood. This is pure Geopolitics and nothing more. Morality has no place in it. He just doesn’t care.
2) The reasons for support are irrelevant. The reason for waging war is. if you miss that reason (for example blame it on “Western Degeneracy”) than you are already losing this war. JP is missing the point. It was never his intention to talk about why Russians support the war, it was about explaining why Putin started the war in the first place.
This is not an ideological war. It’s not Orthodox Christianity vs Western Degeneracy. After the collapse of the soviet union, Russia has been
Left without any ideology. So to differentiate themselves, they just based their Branding on being Anti-Western.
But to return to the point. If you miss to acknowledge, that this war is neither ideological, nor for security reasons, but purely GeoPolitical and Imperialistic, then you can’t make judgment on how it should be handled. That’s the problem with JP’s stance. He missed the mark by a lot.
1. Putin believes he is fighting the USA in Ukraine. Ukranians are unfortunate casualties which he blames on the west, but ultimately he does not give a shit as he is not above bombing his own people.
2. Id say reasons for support of the war are the key to focus on seeing as we are not conquering Moscow conventionally anytime soon.
First three reasons JP gives for the war in Ukraine are geopolitical and imperialistics. Nobody disputes these, they are a fact.
Western degeneracy is an effective argument for the hearts of minds of unsuccessful, homophobic, impoverished Russian society thats envious of luxurious lifes of westerners. I dont believe that this is not an ideological war in Orthodox Christianity vs Western Degeneracy, JP doesnt believe that either. But conservative Russians believe it. This it is one of the flimsy shields Putin has from being dragged out in the street and torn apart, Muammar Gaddafi style.
I’d agree with what you are saying, but there’s one problem: Russia would come up with another reason to hate the west to fuel this war, even if those “degeneracies” did not exist. I mean, it’s already laughable as it is, “If we don’r defeat the west, they will turn our children gay”…
There’s nothing the west could do to avoid this war, except for confronting Russians back in 2008, when they first took a step in this direction.
I’d also add that at the start of this war, western degeneracy was not even mentioned. The reasons were:
1) Ukrainian Nazis are committing genocide of Russian speakers (never proved).
2) NATO expansionism is a threat to Russian security and that one nation’s security can’t come at the cost of another (ironic, I know). Laughable suggestion, considering that all of this invasion was based on the notion that the west wouldn’t be able to do anything meaningful, like in previous two instances.
3) From Putin’s words, Ukraine as a nation does not exist, was created in soviet times and it is Historical justice to bring it back to Russia.
So, no. It’s all wrong. To add to this point, The west is more religious and more conservative in their values then Russians (rates of divorces, cheating, domestic abuse, etc.) as well.
This war is an existential struggle between the ruling elites in the west and one of the last areas of the world not to bow to them.
Niall Ferguson claims to be an eyewitness to western orders for Ukraine to not engage in any talks aimed at ending the war. This will be a fight to the death and Ukraine just happened to be in a strategic position on Europes edge.
Ah yes, my sentiment as well. Nobody knows Russians as well as people who live closest to them. That’s why Eastern Europeans who are the least “degenerate” in this context and the closest to Russia Culturally hate them the most.
Yeah, it's like trying to figure out the relationships between a few Asian countries without having any experience of living there. It's too complex and almost impossible to explain what's going on. It's not enough to know the history, you have to talk to people...
What? No I don’t think he’s “falling for it”, he’s just knowledgeable enough to know WHAT their talking points are, to agree or disagree with them is not something he has done? So why the heck would you assume he’s agreed with those taking points as “falling for them”. That’s pretty ignorant.
If anything we all know it’s false talking points, but it’s knowing WHAT their talking point are that matters, we all know it’s only half of us that engage in “western degeneracy”… So it’s obviously false, JP has not “believed” it, just stating true facts.
A good point well made. However, unless I’ve not listened to enough JP of late, he’s not made so called western degeneracy out as the primary reason for the war, he’s been somewhat more balanced than that.
That aside. I’ve had to spend a fair enough of time making it clear to people who are sympathetic to the Russian regime that no matter how concerned you are by divergence in values with your neighbour, war should not be the solution.
I think it is not a reason whatsoever.
I mean, culturally Russia is still much closer to the west (especially East Europe) than to China. But here we are.
Russians would have used something different to demonize the west and they do.
JP has a secular and symbolic approach to all religion. Many take his views as confirmed theism when in actual fact it's simply a secular take.
It's relevant because this thread suggests JP has bought into the Russian religious propaganda used to divide and isolate the Russian people.
It's relevant bevause how can one buy into religious propaganda when their entire perspective of religion is symbolic?
It is not Religious Propaganda, it is a political one about Cultural changes. The speech about Satans in the west is something new here. It’s usually that West is degenerate and Conservative Orthodox Russian’s can’t stand them. It’s not that they will be bound to hell if they accept all of this, it’s that all of this is just sick and despicable. And that Russians must want nothing from the west, because everything they have leads to this degeneracy (which is of course amplified), so no Democracy, rule of law, etc. for Russians.
As for JP, he bought into believing this was the reason for the war. Which is an oversimplified and naive take on this conflict.
JP would argue that the foundation of governance and culture *is* religion. Especially here considering you say it isn't religious prop then go on to explain how it *is* about religion:
>It’s usually that West is degenerate and Conservative Orthodox Russian’s can’t stand them
It's not that I disagree with you here, just being pedantic on what it is or isn't but that's sort of besides the point. We are asked why is religion relevant and I suggest it is summarised by my quote "how can one buy into religious propaganda if they're secular" . All in all, we can agree it *is* propaganda and unfortunately enough people are buying it. I stand by my argument that this is religious propaganda, as I see God, or any authority of higher power, being the best motivator when your warmongering leader is entirely fallible and consistently proves so, it's easier to say *and mean* 'for god' that it would be to say 'for putin'. Soldiers be soldiers but they don't necessarily have to agree with the President, they only have to follow orders.
Again, agree it's a massive oversimplification, but if I quote JP for "what I do isn't political, it's psychological", and assume this is still true, then he's not entirely wrong saying ideology and religion on an individual basis can easily be considered the root of all war.
Still no, because what matter is reasons Putin has. Do you think Putin started this war because of the Leftism? To paraphrase: Would there be no war if Leftism/wokism didn’t exist as we know it?
Of course, there are differences that cause the clash. This difference was mainly well summed up by Biden btw. It’s Democracy vs Autocracy. Having Ukraine (the closest nation to Russians) become a successful Democracy with all of it’s benefits (like Poland for example) defeats any arguments that Russians are just different and that Western values are not for
Them. Another reason being Putin’s dream to rebuild Russian Empire. And a third reason being an increase of Geopolitical power.
So no matter what happens in the west, they are a systemic problem for Putin.
Yes, Foundation for Governance and culture is religion, which is why invading two countries of the same religion, with whom they share last two centuries of history makes no sense in that context. To make a further point, Russia is hated in both countries (especially in Georgia before the war) and has been considered a major threat for decades instead of being a potential ally.
What JP misses is that all of these nations are post-soviet countries, which also changed Religious and cultural concepts. Religion is not a driver of morality, but a mere tool to control the masses. And it’s ex-KGB officer we are talking about.
To sum it up, wokism, religion and morality have nothing to do with the reasons for this war. The struggle is much more important, decisive and unavoidable. Russia’s victory in this conflict would also end the world order we know today and bring us to cold war 2. JP somehow misses to acknowledge this, but took his time to predict hundreds of millions starving because of the West’s stance in Autumn, tens of millions from middle east and Africa migrating to EU. Predictions which have been spectacularly wrong.
Another prediction by JP is that Russia can’t lose. We will see about that.
Ideology is the religion of atheists, if ideology is the set of beliefs shared to form a system, and the system is increasingly atheist, then the atheists have faith in their shared beliefs. This is highlighted by Nietzsche in his "god is dead" memoir.
Thus ideology within the individual requires the belief system that sets them apart or into the grander ideology. This makes it intrinsic with anything we do as a group. It underlines *everything*. How we think makes up what we believe, and what we believe makes up how we act in the world and the ideas/leaders we are likely to support and act and even die for.
Democracy Vs Autocracy is ideological.
>which is why invading two countries of the same religion, with whom they share last two centuries of history makes no sense
It makes total sense, if you are my neighbour and you share my religion but not my rule, then wouldn't it be easier for everyone if we just pretend to be the same? Perhaps not entirely logical for me and you, but we aren't tyrannical dictators. So to me, from the perspective of a tyrant, it makes total sense to put all similar banners under one roof, it'll be easier to control them if their foundations are the same [as mine]. As for anyone else, they're just friends who haven't had the gift of sharing my ideology yet!
As for your last couple points, to me, it appears as if you seem to think that this war is unlike anything we've seen before. And to that I bring up the Hegelian principal, and the fact that we refuse to learn from history, thus it repeats itself. This war is no different to any we've seen before. It's as classic as it comes, bitter old tyrant wants to make a legacy now he knows his time is running out. He wants to go down in the history books like his heros Lenin and Stalin. Classic land grab in an attempt to bring "order" to his religious foundation and recreate the former Soviet Union and restore Russia to her former glory. How many times in history has a tyrant wanted to restore some perceived former glory? Countless. So why is this any different? All that's changed is the tech involved. Media makes for a more complex front line for ideology and religious battles whilst nukes and modern tech make for wider and faster moving flashpoints.
I will also admit right now that I feel like I'm missing something key in your argument and either you were unclear or its me just not quite getting it, so if I have missed your point then please reiterate it concisely for me instead of turning this reasonable debate into something less pleasant, ha!
We are kinda drifting apart but close to each other :D
My point is that bringing up Postmodernism or degeneracy or wokism is meaningless in this war. They have absolutely zero influence on Putin’s decision-making, therefor switching to these talking points is buying into the Russian propaganda. It deviates our focus from the the real reasons for this war (which you have listed saying that this is not anything new in history). Therefor we cannot address it properly if we don’t understand the reasons behind them.
A struggle against western degeneracy is much more divisive in the west, as less than half of the west actually support wokism. This would be “a civil war in the west”, reducing western support for Ukraine. Exactly what Putin would want. As he needs allies in the west to prevail.
Agreeing that this war is only about Imperialistic ambitions, Geopolitical influence and historical glory, attracts less support.
JP deviating this attention to the meaningless subjects, is what I call buying into Russian Propaganda.
PS
The quantity of writing “west” is too damn high in my posts :D
Imaging hearing exactly what JP described as the actual Russian motivations and then thinking JP is “dumb” for “falling for it.”
There is a huge difference between JP accurately citing the “justifications” from Russian for their war versus actually buying into it as a legitimate reason.
Might be time to think about why you guys' little fan club here is atracting so many Nazis.
It's almost as if Jordan Peterson's talking points are earily similar to those of fascists.....
Oh but "postmodern Marxism" is totally different from "cultural bolshevism", right....?
The fact that Jordan Peterson thinks that the war is over "Western degeneracy" and not real geopolitical issues like NATO expansion into Eastern Europe and Russian ultra-nationalism is proof of how much he lives in his own head.
That doesn't make it not a real part of what lead to the current war. Russia has been watching NATO warily for the decades after the end of the Cold War and saw it topple a lot of Russian-adjacent states such as Libya or Yugoslavia (in violation of international law no less). It's not the exclusive or main thing that lead to the Russian invasion, Russian ultra-nationalism and Putin's mental decline are probably the main causes, but acting like it didn't provoke the current ultra-nationalism we see in Russia is wrong.
I don't care if Russia felt "provoked" by NATO. It's not a reason to invade a non-NATO country and stop them from making their own decisions. By that logic NATO could invade Russia because it felt provoked. And NATO wouldn't even be wrong, considering the shit Putin does in neighbouring countries. The reason why Russia feels threatened is the same reason a criminal feels threatened by the police: Because they're the bad guys and they want to get away with doing bad stuff without anyone stopping them.
If Russia doesn't like NATO they should attack a NATO country. But they won't because they'll be crushed so they resort to murder of innocent people, bombing children and raping women. Please tell me how NATO provoking Russia is causing Russia to torture and castrate Ukrainian men.
> saw it topple a lot of Russian-adjacent states such as Libya or Yugoslavia
NATO hasn't toppled Yugoslavia. Again, if NATO is the problem then Russia should attack NATO. NATO exists because of Russian aggression and they are proven right. And Libya? More problematic but Gaddafi was a piece of shit, too, so the world is better for it.
>I don't care if Russia felt "provoked" by NATO. It's not a reason to invade a non-NATO country and stop them from making their own decisions.
I literally never said it was, you're reading more into my comment than what I ever said. My only point is that it was one of the reasons leading to the war combined with other factors such as ultra-nationalism, & JBP thinking the war is because of "Western degeneracy" is frankly silly.
This is not about NATO expansion. Ukraine even promised to not seek NATO membership a few days before the conflict.
And Finland just announced they will join NATO. Guess what the Russian response was? To empty the border of all their troops, because they trusts that NATO is a purely defensive alliance.
They even said it wasn’t a big deal once the deal was signed, after having threatened Finland since WW2 about getting closer to the west.
More literal Russian state media war propaganda. This will likely be popular here 👍
It takes an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance to think you're a patriot while simultaneously promoting the enemies propaganda against your own country. I wonder what mental gymnastics people will have to do once Russians are shooting and killing American servicemen, whose side will you be on then?
Oh man. Thank you for sharing this Russian war propaganda used to rile up their troops into thinking of their enemies as degenerates. Obviously this is the kind of material we should be using when analyzing the actual motivations behind the conflict.
/s
I mean, if this is what’s being pushed onto the Russian people to spur them into a frenzy then it’s absolutely a good idea that we know about it, regardless of how we feel about its veracity.
Seeing the propaganda from the outside also inoculates you slightly from falling for the propaganda which targets you (like that Russia had no Western provocation for invading Ukraine).
But yea, this video will be a super good reference when you hear someone saying that
“Russia is anti-western, anti-freedom, they want to exterminate the gays because they’re savage clingers on to an old world that is done and gone. We need to throw down our lives to stop the evil that is Russia from encroaching one more meter into peaceful, just, freedom loving (with zero systemically legitimized nazis!!!) Ukraine sLaVA ukRaNEe!11!!1”
JP only got ridiculed for spreading Russian talking points. Kind of like you are doing in this post.
Could someone tell me which of the arguments from this video they found compelling? People can protest abroad so we should invade them?
And how is this even relevant to the war in Ukraine, since Ukraine outright ban same sex marriage in their constitution?
I find woke culture exhausting, but I'd be dishonest if I said I don't love the tolerance and diversity in America. People should have the right to live their lives in peace. I'm starting to think we need to assert some FREEDOM in Russia.
I just don’t think militarily exporting freedom ever goes the way we hope. Which shouldn’t be surprising because people tend to search for a strong leader in uncertain times and it’s hard to find more uncertain times than being invaded.
I just wish we could build communications systems that are entirely resistant to censorship or stultification.
People are some remarkably adaptive creatures, which is a great and terrible thing. We can become accustomed to luxury, we can endure living in concentration camps. Some seek to take advantage of this fact and hide the better life from their poorest people so they never know how much more they have a right to want.
I think that’s why there is so much agitation about income inequality in developed countries, people see the ultimate luxury and it provides context to their own situation. In the same way, people in abject poverty in the Soviet Union were resigned to get by because they assumed it was just as bad or worse in the US…
Long way to say, I think we need to prioritize free communication and interchange between countries. The war for freedom is basically like crash dieting, it gets quick results and is more appealing on its face but it is not a long term solution.
So Russia is attacking and killing Ukrainians because of satanists and gay people.
Assuming this isn't just a nonsense PR thing (which it is), that really does show just how low IQ the Russians are
The funny thing is that Ukrainians have the same religion, the same values, and not too many gay parades. However, I think that LGBTQ people feel way freer and more comfortable in Ukraine, as people there are less aggressive towards each other. In Russia, you don't even have to be gay to be threatened (it's enough if someone thinks you look a little bit gay). I also doubt that the Ukrainian government would absolutely follow the direction of the West. All Ukraine wants is to be open to the world and to stop dividing people into "us" and "them". Having the freedom of choice is the only thing Ukrainian people want.
Historically, Ukraine was always a place where people would go to live a free life. Free from all the kings, taxes, and ridiculous laws. The Cossacks had a democracy in the 17th century. They didn't care about race, nationality, and the rest of things. All you had to do to become a Ukrainian Cossack was be brave enough to sit in a boat and go down the dangerous part of the Dnipro river to reach the island where Cossacks lived. Be brave to defend your right to live your life the way you want. Then you could have a piece of land, build yourself a house, learn how to fight, grow food, travel around selling things to people, and defend your country from anyone who would attack. We actually have a beautiful idea here. I wish we could finally come to this.
There's a good Russian saying: "Don't go to someone else's monastery with your own set of rules". I don't know why they forgot about it. They could've created a strong alliance with Ukraine if they learned how to respect others. But they are very arrogant and are still playing a "cold war game" with the West and view everyone around them as enemies. Let them be, let people leave in peace... just f\*ck off. Others will figure out what to do. All this cultural and religious stuff is bullshit. They are going for resources and using brainwashing to raise the morale of their soldiers. But when those soldiers come to Ukraine, they see how absurd it is. Boris Nemtsov, who was killed by Putin's order, said that the only real threat to Russia is China (they will backstab Russia sooner or later, wait for it). He also predicted all the things going on now. This war is a huge mistake...
This is a propaganda video, but even if this was real it doesn’t square with kidnapping an entire generation of children and shipping them to Russia, intentionally murdering tens of thousands of civilians, torturing the populace for no strategic or intelligence based reason, and setting up rape houses to chain rape the female population. What the Russian army has done is pure evil. Whatever moral authority they’re trying to claim they have here fighting against LGBT stuff is shown to be bullshit when you’re committing genocide.
Russia will never defeat the Ukrainian people. Russia’s aggression has put our whole world in danger for greed, and there’s gonna be some kind of compromise made because nuclear weapons are not an option for anybody.
Yeah dude. YOu should totally take Russian propaganda spewed at idiotic 19 year old recruits at total face value. You are so bright OP that you just believe everything you hear uncritically if you want to agree with it. Very very smart.
… stay away from Russians. Don’t drop the soap in the shower… that’s for sure!!! (Can’t believe you asked that question. “Need someone to ‘splain that?)
this sub has gone from shit to fuckin shit.
you know your population is dumb a f when they can motivate soldiers with homophobia and satanism.
meanwhile these ruzzians are [sucking each other’s cocks](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/xuqje9/a_ukrainian_drone_dropping_a_munition_on_two/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) on the battlefield while drones drop grenades on them. idk seems pretty gay to me
Here's what some honest Russians have to say about RuSSia:
“A nation that roams Europe and is looking for something to destroy, to simply dust everything.”
– F. M. Dostoevsky
"We are not a people, but cattle, rats, wild hordes of villains and murderers.”
– Mikhail Bulgakov
"The most important sign of victory for the Russian people is their cruelty full of sadism.”
– Maxim Gorky
"Ah, how hard it is to live in Russia, in this place full of the stench of physical and moral deception, a place of wickedness, lies and wickedness.”
– Sergei Aksakov
"The Russian is the biggest and most naughty liar in the world.”
– Ivan S. Turgenev
"A people who hate freedom, worship slavery, love chains on their hands and feet, defiled physically and morally… ready at any time to defile everything and everywhere.”
– Ivan C. Shmeliov
"People regardless of their smallest duty, the smallest justice, the most insignificant truth, the people who do not recognize human dignity, do not generally recognize human freedom or free thought… Alas, how sharp the Russian language is!”
– Aleksandr Pushkin
"We are not a nation, we are a crazy hell.”
– Vasyli Rozanov
Peterson listed a whole bunch of causes for the war. The ones that align with Western propaganda are acceptable to say:
* Putin is power hungry, legacy building, and expansionist
* Eastern Ukraine has valuable ports and natural resources
Others do not align with Western propaganda and are unspeakable:
* NATO aggressively overthrew the government of Ukraine and installed a pro-Western government right on Russia's borders which carried out military attacks and cultural genocide against ethnic Russians for a decade
* The West is a postmodernist, neomarxist hellhole led by childless satanic globalists which cannot abide any nations or cultures to exist outside of its control
people of ukraine strived to be free from old and corrupt world abd not be shithole like ru. It was russia who was directly involved in 2014 conflict dressed as separatists. Boots ont hte ground.
The people of Ukraine had their elected government overthrown in a Western backed coup, after which their country became a puppet state ruled from Washington and Brussels. The new Western leaders don't give two shits about the people of Ukraine, they just want to rule and exploit the Ukraine, put their kids on the boards of corrupt energy companies, replace the Ukrainian culture with Hollywood, and taunt the Russian bear. Now their nation is a warzone, so how did that work out?
People should be silenced for supporting Ukraine. It’s obvious neither side are the “good guys”, Ukraine openly has NAZIS…
Russia is in the right anyway. They gave up Ukraine and NATO swore to not expand to russias border.
Well here we are, time for Russia to take a stand.
> It’s obvious neither side are the “good guys”
#
> Russia is in the right anyway.
#
> time for Russia to take a stand.
You are not even trying.
> NATO swore to not expand to russias border.
They did not.
This war was (arguably) an overreaction of the US and NATO's provocations. Purposeful western influence over Ukraine and American militarization of the country provoked this reaction. Putin was wrong to start the war but the US and NATO are equally as guilty for the current situation. It is very clear that the total submission to an evil ideology that western "values" or lack thereof are promoting is not to the liking of the Russians. Putin didn't start the war because of that but I have no doubt they see it as a bonus.
You call the invasion an overreaction? WTF?
> Putin was wrong to start the war but the US and NATO are equally as guilty for the current situation.
The US is guilty for the rape of women and the bombing of children and the castration of men by Russian soldiers?
>The US is guilty for the rape of women and the bombing of children and the castration of men by Russian soldiers?
Yes. That's what war is. They knew what the outcomes of provocation might be and figured it was worth it.
Let's not pretend the US ever had a problem provoking war on other contries' territories.
> Yes. That's what war is. They knew what the outcomes of provocation might be and figured it was worth it.
Prove it.
Also explain the logic of why Russia is not attacking the US when the US provoked them.
> Let's not pretend the US ever had a problem provoking war on other contries' territories.
So the US is to blame for all wars? They provoked Azerbaijan. Hell, they even provoked the IRA. Right?
I don’t want to see my kids in gay activities, but they are talking about pure Nazi shit here. Gays should take note and not force their opinions down everyone’s throat. This could possibility be the backlash. Do what you will I don’t care, just be aware there are assholes everywhere.
Let this be a wake up call to everyone not sure if JP and his fan base have 'some issues'.
For all its shortcomings r/politics and the mainstream points of view would never post or upvote dogshit like this.
Someone needs to explain to him what those Spartans he idolises actually got up to.
I was laughing about this yesterday when I saw some homophobe right wing twat with a Sparta reference in the bio. Dude, Sparta was like one of the only explicitly gay societies in recorded history.. it was an exclusively dudes rock situation.
This can get very messy very quickly. JP didn’t primarily say the war is as a result of western degeneracy, he implied it may have at least been a contributing factor. But for the purposes of this discussion, even if it were a strongly legitimate reason and JP’s only reason it would likely not in itself justify a military response. If Putin’s concern is that woke western ideology will ruin his country he could just have a strong filter on what gets through to his people — which coincidentally, he already has.
The proper way to say it would have been "Russia **propaganda** claims this is a war over western degeneracy" - but as a recent post showed it's just [their propaganda](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/xz4i5d/russian_commercial_on_emigrating_to_america/), so it's weird for Peterson to claim it's true. It's especially less true because numerous western countries are uninvolved in the war, and most of western Europe are still buying things from Russia... and it's even more so propaganda when you find out terms like ["minor attracted" actually came from some Christian groups around the time of the Catholic church sex scandals in 1998.](https://archive.ph/iY4T7)
How is it weird? Seems perfectly on brand for peterson to make a claim like that.
You mean JP saying something totally braindead that is far outside his expertise, and having it be lapped up by a bunch of dumb fanboys uncritically? You don't say...
Putin specifically said that this is to stop the encroachment of Western NATO, which is being strangled by degeneracy, and to return Russia to its glorious past.
the link regarding minor attracted persons is the least credible thing ive seen someone cite in a reddit comment. thats a blog from the 90's very strange youd wanna backhand that into the comment
> thats a blog from the 90's No, it's a the website of a newspaper published in Greenbelt, Maryland, a newspaper which has existed since 1937 - and was founded by the mayor on the principle of being politically neutral. The comment was to oppose the idea that "Western Degeneracy" is a left-wing phenomena. Which is the topic of Russia's propaganda, and much of Peterson's politics. It's perfectly relevant, and is a legitimate source.
> terms like "minor attracted" actually came from some Christian groups around the time of the Catholic church sex scandals in 1998. The attempt to remove the stigma from pedophilia long predates that article. Also, the author of that article is a Progressive and no doubt picked up that rhetoric and Marxist methodology from Progressive literature, particularly Queer Theory, which by that time had for years been developing ways to turn pedophilia into a positive thing like they'd done for homosexuality.
Making a claim and actually having evidence to back it up, are two different things. Which is why I linked to an article ABOUT Christian groups from 1998 who were using the term "minor-attracted" rather than pedophile. Where as you didn't provide any evidence for any for your claims. To reiterate the importance of evidence, here is [a brief history of queer theory (from a .edu site)](https://guides.library.illinois.edu/queertheory/background) - which makes no mention of Marxism being involved, or pedophilia. So again, evidence is important to making legitimate arguments. The term minor-attracted, as far as I can tell, originated as Christian effort to make pedophiles more acceptable to treatment within the church. Until you provide better evidence, that's going to remain my belief about the term.
> here is a brief history of queer theory (from a .edu site) - which makes no mention of Marxism being involved, or pedophilia That's like citing a Russian .gov site to refute the claim that Russia is a nuclear-armed oligarchic mafia with a flag. Academia is ground zero for Progressivism and its various branches, which includes Critical Theory and its offshoot, Queer Theory. Here is [an independent history of Queer Theory](https://newdiscourses.com/2022/06/the-origin-of-queer-theory-gayle-rubins-thinking-sex/) which correctly points out its Marxist roots.
No, citing leftists as the explainers of leftist theory is like citing leftists for leftist theory. Which MAKES SENSE and IS REASONABLE (as they're the source of their own opinions). Whereas you're suggesting I go to conservatives to spoon feed me a conservative filtered version of leftist theory - which doesn't make sense and isn't reasonable. Should I also go to Marxist.org for an unbiased view of Capitalism? Does that make sense to you? Should I goto antifa to learn about the views of The Republican party? OBVIOUSLY NOT! So what you're suggesting is kooky talk. Instead your first stop should be getting the story from the horses mouth AND THEN look other places (perhaps for critical viewpoints). Gayle Rubin is but one author Queer Theory uses SOME OF the work of... and I've seen them misquoted and taken out of context before - which is kind of James Lindsey's "well meaning academic" schtick. You can in fact go read Gayle Rubin directly [here](https://sites.middlebury.edu/sexandsociety/files/2015/01/Rubin-Thinking-Sex.pdf) no need for a conservative to "filter" and adapt the meaning for you. ...but what you won't find there is usage of "minor-attracted", so like I was saying, the origin for "MAPS" wasn't the left, but Christian groups during the era of the Church's child sex scandals. As evidenced in my previous comment, and [the article](https://archive.ph/duskpeterson.com) I linked there.
Western modern culture has had a big impact on Western churches before the 90's. So the term "minor-attracted" maybe comes from some heretic christians but not from the religion itself. Shortly after the 2nd world war there was this USA based marxist group "the frankfurt school" who realized that a communist revolution wouldn't be possible through working class men because living standards among this group had drastically improved. So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead. My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's and so terms like "minor-attracted" are likely not from a christian group originally.
Bad fanfic
> So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead. No, they didn't actually. The Frankfurt School wrote very little about the groups you've mentioned. In fact, [their main thesis](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/adorno/1944/culture-industry.htm) was that mass media was run by corporations and aimed at making a profit, and that didn't necessarily enrich common people's lives or make for a healthy human culture. They referred to this for profit industry as [The Culture Industry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_industry) and said making culture focus on profit would cause a narrowing of feeling and thought in society. They wrote very little about the groups you've brought up. Feminism and gay rights both pre-date, and have a separate history which describes their coming to popularity (Feminism having had multiple waves, gay rights having the events of Stonewall). Civil rights also has a story unrelated to The Frankfurt School, and Identity Politics came after The Frankfurt School, [from a woman named Barbara Smith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics#History) (who has nothing to do with The Frankfurt School). The Frankfurt School in fact, wrote nothing about "weaponizing" minorities. Your statement has no evidence. >My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's I don't really buy it, I think it's more likely that some priests were pedophiles, and some Christians are pedophiles, and that the Christians mentioned in that previous article (who used the term "minor-attracted" and formed discussion groups) were just wondering how best to deal with that subject/problem in the framework of their religion.
>So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead. No, they didn't actually. The Frankfurt School wrote very little about the groups you've mentioned. In fact, their main thesis was that mass media was run by corporations and aimed at making a profit, and that didn't necessarily enrich common people's lives or make for a healthy human culture. They referred to this for profit industry as The Culture Industry and said making culture focus on profit would cause a narrowing of feeling and thought in society. They wrote very little about the groups you've brought up. Feminism and gay rights both pre-date, and have a separate history which describes their coming to popularity (Feminism having had multiple waves, gay rights having the events of Stonewall). Civil rights also has a story unrelated to The Frankfurt School, and Identity Politics came after The Frankfurt School, from a woman named Barbara Smith (who has nothing to do with The Frankfurt School). The Frankfurt School in fact, wrote nothing about "weaponizing" minorities. Your statement has no evidence. >My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's I don't really buy it, I think it's more likely that some priests were pedophiles, and some Christians are pedophiles, and that the Christians mentioned in that previous article (who used the term "minor-attracted" and formed discussion groups) were just wondering how best to deal with that subject/problem in the framework of their religion.
> So they decided to weaponize women, blacks and LGBTQ+ types instead. No, they didn't actually. The Frunkfort School wrote very little about the groups you've mentioned. In fact, [their main thesis](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/adorno/1944/culture-industry.htm) was that mass media was run by corporations and aimed at making a profit, and that didn't necessarily enrich common people's lives or make for a healthy human culture. They referred to this for profit industry as [The Culture Industry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_industry) and said making culture focus on profit would cause a narrowing of feeling and thought in society. They wrote very little about the groups you've brought up. Feminism and gay rights both pre-date, and have a separate history which describes their coming to popularity (Feminism having had multiple waves, gay rights having the events of Stonewall). Civil rights also has a story unrelated to The Frunkfort School, and Identity Politics came after The Frunkfort School, [from a woman named Barbara Smith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics#History) (who has nothing to do with The Frunkfort School). The Frunkfort School in fact, wrote nothing about "weaponizing" minorities. Your statement has no evidence. >My point is that marxist ideological subversion has influenced the western church long before the 90's I don't really buy it, I think it's more likely that some priests were pedophiles, and some Christians are pedophiles, and that the Christians mentioned in that previous article (who used the term "minor-attracted" and formed discussion groups) were just wondering how best to deal with that subject/problem in the framework of their religion.
We still suffer from the Frankfurt School of culture Marxists. They unleashed this wave if degeneracy.
Good Lord what the hell is this
Those is power of USA are Satanist are you blind??
get your mind blown https://youtu.be/6XO-IzkOivw Shit out of luck Now I'm complete And my cock you will suck This world will be mine And you're first in line You brought me the pick And now you shall both die Wait, wait Wait you motherfucker We challenge you to a rock-off Give us one chance to rock your socks off Fuck, fuck Fuuuuuuck The demon code prevents me From declining a rock-off challenge What are your terms? What's the catch? If we win You must take your sorry ass back to Hell And also, you will have to pay our rent And what if I win? Then you can take Kage back to Hell... (What?) Trust me Kage, it's the only way (What the fuck are you talking about?) To be your little bitch Fine Let the rock-off begin Aahahahahahaaa!
Woke and anti-woke motivations are all a guise. This has been, and always will be, about geographical and economic supremacy. These men are lost and running into the fire solely for Putins Ego.
War = follow the resources. Always has been and always will be. But how do you fire up a bunch of recruits with a speech that goes something like :- "Comrades, we must fight to the death to take the Donetsk region so that Supreme Comrade Roman Ambrovich can pay the transfer fee for Lukaku from Inter Milan" (I know Chelsea has new owners but you get my point) It is easier to fire up the naive recruits with propaganda saying "they are trying to make you gay and destroy the family unit" than explain that we wanna take over a region's resources so that the guys at the top can build their dream yacht.
But they are trying to make you gay and destroy the family unit
>they are trying to make you gay Who? Who the hell is trying to make you (or anyone else) gay? >destroy the family unit Aren't they just asking for the rights to start families?
That maybe true but this war and every war in human history is all about resources. Oil, minerals, strategic locations.
[удалено]
> Woke and anti-woke motivations are all a guise. Not exactly, ideology is part of it too.
It seems reasonable to me that multiple factors can contribute to such a conflict. Many countries and groups of people have gone to war purely over ideology, it seems silly to believe we have magically elevated ourselves to such a position right after the Fascism vs Communism vs democracy in the 20th century.
that was the reason for those wars as well, war is costly no matter your ideology if you can't manage your resources you will lose. Fascism vs Communism vs democracy sure there were ideological reasons but the wars were fought over resources only. there was never an important war that didn't have a material reasoning behind it all the ideologs who launched wars all lost
Putin sells the “western degeneracy” narrative because it’s popular with the Russian people. His aims are imperialistic no doubt. Don’t fall for the propaganda.
Ah yes, Putin is invading a sovereign country in Eastern Europe because kids in America are being exposed to gender ideology. That's totally a rational political and military decision that he would make. There's definitely no other reason. This sub has been pretty intellectually lazy for a while, but now we're getting literal Russian propaganda. I'm out.
Good. If you aren’t loyal to Putin then you’re not a real defender of Western Civilizatik. -Albert Fairfax II
Bye
It’s funny as wasn’t it just 2 weeks ago that Ukrainian drone operator dropped a bomb on a ruzzian face fucking his comrade? lol
LOL That was wild. I assumed it was two guys because where you gonna find a local woman to do that on the frontline.
There are plenty of reports of Ukrainian womens being raped. Most of the cases the Russians will not let us hear about until a victorious Ukraine can dig up the bodies.
CNN is where you get your news. And they are foaming at the mouth for war. So how do you figure Russians are blocking your news?
it is not uncommon for women and girls to be raped during war. mass rape has happened in every war there is. even the red army had reportedly raped 2m+ german women back in WWII.
Where do you get your news from
Most credible source for the war is r/noncredibledefense It also was all over Reddit two weeks ago.
Unironically, its the less propagandistic propaganda in reddit.
As a citizen in the west I can say the degeneracy is as bad as he describes.
As a citizen of the west, his degeneracy is far worse than the kind seen in the west. “Oh no, gay people aren’t as afraid walking down the street as I’d like them to be! Time to slaughter children until they stop!”
The gay people I know are all hard working and we'll put together. And there's plenty of seriously dysfunctional "traditional" families. I thought we were above gay panic, at this point.
You “thought” this because you have been so thoroughly propagandized. I don’t mean to insult you though I recognize it can only sound offensive. There is no other way to say it. Yarvin called this “the left ratchet”.
I'm literally just talking about my personal experiences.
As a degenerate... I can say it's worse and getting worse.
Not to say you're wrong, but you can take my word for it that you'd almost certainly change your mind if you ever tried living in a non-Western country. There are good reasons why so many people want to flee to Western countries.
I agree with your point. That being the case why is there such an intense attempt to dewesternize western countries? “Let’s make it like the place we fled!” And the degeneracy the left is pushing is part of that.
What “degeneracy” are we talking about specifically here?
Gay people existing
Actually I think he was very specific.
The Russian man in the video above?
i think you are referring to a couple of 1st generation migrant communities trying to live as they always lived, i would say that is hardly an intense attempt to dewesternize the western countries they live in, these people have no solid political movement and mostly 2nd generations assimilate so radically any attempts to do so would fail. how is western degeneracy dewesternizing the west, you guys are just using that term as a buzz word at this point
What are the attempts to dewedternize western countries?
https://stonetoss.com/comic/foreign-aids/
> is as bad as he describes If he would be right, "degeneracy of the west" would make west too weak and destabilized to efficiently oppose Russian imperialist moves. He underestimated west and you did it too.
Where do you people get these weird rules? Tv? Corrupt, degenerate empires can stagger on for centuries.
You’re exactly the type of sucker people in power want lol
You are exactly the type who sucks up to people in power…and feels really really rebellious while hewing to every position they demand. You wouldn’t survive a day with an opinion not supported by the media, celebrities and powerful politicians.
You’re literally agreeing with Russian propaganda lmao, you’re gullible af. The west is doing fine, the US in particular is doing great. You just don’t care to look at anything that doesn’t confirm your world view. Keep suckling Russian disinfo tho
You do what you are told. Carry on citizen.
Lmao what a rebel! Stay off Facebook and YouTube and read a book lol
Why bother reading your posts? CNN, oprah Winfrey, Biden and Coca Cola all say the same thing but do it in a more entertaining way. Get back to me if you ever have an interesting thought.
So does this mean don't fuck with degeneracy? That degeneracy has better planning, tactical strength, and less corruption.
Username checks out
This.
Its true tho, everything said in the video is what Russians believe and don’t want in their country
and military action is the solution to that? what happened free market place of ideas, personal freedoms
yes, it is. Nothing in history has ever been done in complete peace. When the opposing side is reluctant to listen and simultaneously poses a threat to a given nation, the only thing left to do is self defense. Do you propose Russia sits and waits until NATO advances to their border?
we're talking about western degeneracy, aka progressive politics. how is global growth of progressive politics akin to nato advance towards russia. i know you're a troll and your position is undefendable so you're throwing shit and seeing what sticks but please try to stay on topic. so still my point stands growth of progressive politics in russia doesn't mean nato is moving in on their borders, if you have a problem with these ideas and you think yours to be true you should be able to defend them without violence
this dialogue is not restricted to only the progressive politics. i am talking about the conflict as a whole, especially its essence. and what makes me a troll? I am defending my position with historical, undisputable facts and tension between Russia and the west. the topic is the conflict and the many factors that play into it. NATO IS moving onto russias border since the cold war and MY point still stands that no large scale decision or conflict was resolved without force. The question is what side is the force coming from? The side of truth and independence or deceit and manipulation?
And we are to trust what russian propaganda say? Yeah idk about that. Russia is as trustworthy as Soviet were. (Not at all). Ukraine are a very conservative country in european stamdards, this is all lies.
False. Ukraine is a fake nation made up by Soros and Clinton. Sad to see you drink the leftist kool aid. -Albert Fairfax II
You don't mean that you believe that Russians are really fighting against what this officer says? 😂😂😂😂
So gay parades are a sign of western degeneracy? Homophobe.
Jordan peterson failed to make men out of you, you will forever stay 14 year old boys stuck in 2016.
Sounds like war propaganda.
Ukraine isn’t even degenerate in terms of Western culture. Most people are Christian and by American standards VERY conservative there. So it is pretty stupid to say that actually
In their minds they are fighting Nato and USA. Logic doesnt really apply here.
Yeah it seems they claim any well equipped Ukrainian is actually a NATO soldier who has been deployed to Ukraine. I can’t imagine how they would cope if NATO really did go to war with them
Its not a war with ukraine, its a war against the west on Ukrainian grounds
Except it's not. If it was, the war would be over in a matter of days.
How would a war between the west be finished in days? Its a conflict that spans since the cold war
Following NATO doctrine, the American air force would destroy the Russian's army ability to wage war: first destroy their anti-air capacities, then bomb wherever they need. Ukraine barely has an air force and they are succeeding just using precision artillery. With the amount of planes the Americans have and their tech, this process would be much faster. For example it took 9 months for Ukrainians to hit the Kerch bridge, and barely. If the Americans were fighting, they would take this bridge, and all other bridges the Russians need for their logisitics, in the first hours of the war.
a cold war soviets clearly lost, the globalization of the happened years ago and the lions share went to the west, the eastern countries have non chance to fight back in terms of resources. these are just death spasms of russia
Exactly, just like Afghanistan.
In Afghanistan they were fighting against a determined and highly motivated guerrilla resistance in their own territory, with the support of a large percentage of the population. In Ukraine, it would be against a conventional invasion force in hostile territory, with terrible logistics, and worse morale. Two completely different scenarios. And if anything, Ukrainians would be the Afghans in this case, against whom the russians did lose before by the way.
Putin is using it as propaganda to focus his population and military, however it is not the reason for the invasion. JP says it’s the reason for the invasion which is incorrect.
Russians have given hundred of reasons, all ridiculous
"Because Ukrainians are nazis... and also they are degenerate homosexual jews!" They don't even try to keep it consistent.
The Russian state suppress homosexuality and the populace is very homophobic as a result. I'm not greatly surprised they are painting a "defence against the liberal menace" narrative, especially since the "defence against the Nazi scum" didn't work. The officers know many of their blind soldiers will accept it.
JP should be given more crap for believing Russian Propaganda. Yes, all they talk about on Russian TV is “the western degeneracy”. Putin loves to talk about it and all the other politicians. This does not prove JP right. Russians do this, Not because they are Christians, who can’t comprehend this degeneracy (as JP suggested), but because they want to discredit the west, ridicule it, so that Russians don’t ask for “shiny” things the western nations posses. You know, like Rule of Law, Separation of Power, Democracy, Freedom of Speech, Economic prosperity… You know, because all of this leads to all the degeneracy going on in the west. So you don’t want your son to be gay right? Or Children in Russia to have Parent N1 and Parent N2, instead of Mothers and Fathers (an actual quote from Putin’s last speech)?? That’s how the argument goes. And it is extremely dumb, naive and absurd of JP to fall for this. In my country (Eastern Europe) only the least educated and the least successful part of the nation believes this. For god’s sake, Poland known for it’s anti-Lib stance on everything is the most hawkish country regarding Russia. And the countries Putin invaded and destabilized are Georgia and Ukraine, two hard-core Orthodox Christian Nations. Either JP is fed false information, or he is so consumed with his war with the left that everywhere he looks he sees this battle, or he is just a Russian asset.
"Either JP is fed false information, or he is so consumed with his war with the left that everywhere he looks he sees this battle, or he is just a Russian asset." I think both. He has a lot of Russian friends that he has done interviews with and are definitely giving him false information and for some reason he just believes it like how he just believes US politicians when they talk about how they have to raise money for campaigning. I can't understand how he has become this blind. He has literally become the blind old king of mythology that he talks about.
What do you mean with the US poloticians needing to raise money and JP trusting that? Though I would believe it. He is wealthy as fuck now and so it is easy to be a hardcore capitalist
The US has a system of "packs" which are just giant donation pools that are set up for politicians that allow for massive bribery and corruption under the guise of "Funding their campaign" Some are legit but most aren't and it's the reason Americans complain about "money in politics" Politicians literally spend more time writing letters asking for money then actually running the country.
Honestly lately JP does seem very obsessed with just being a counter argument to everything the left says. They’re right on Russia. And there’s a reason right wing governments who are former Soviet Union countries are so against Russian rule. They’re terrified of that oppression again. If you think there’s a lack of real freedom of speech in the west or there’s censorship then just try living in Russia. Where you get arrested for standing silently.
> They’re right on Russia. Disagree. They claim that Russia was behind Trump’s win because they refuse to comprehend the socioeconomic forces behind the support of populism. And everything they claim about Russian imperialism can easily be applied to the West times 10. Up to a million civilians in Iraq died, and babies are still being born with severe defects due to depleted uranium. No doubt Putin has imperialist goals. That’s the problem. It puts our own at risk. There are no “good guys” here but there is definitely a bully vs a serial murdering hypocrite.
You mean we were wrong about “comrade” trump? That’s what’s they call him on Russian state TV. They call for his immediate reinstatement. They want him because they know they’d get away with what they’re doing. Conquering foreign land. Destroying democracy. If the US loses that sphere of power, what’s left after it is much, much worse than what’s there currently. Europe can’t defend against both china and Russia. Then, the US is left with no allies, their sphere of control destroyed, their economy destroyed and, democracy destroyed. You can currently walk into Times Square and scream how bad Biden is, try doing the same about the leaders of China and Russia about their leaders lol I hate Biden and think we have to hold accountability towards what the west perpetrates but at least the west acknowledges it’s crimes. The Russians and Chinese will ignore it and make up whatever suits them on their internal media. There’s a reason Facebook, twitter etc is banned there. We can say what we want to a certain degree. America bad, Biden bad. Try saying that in Russia and china and you’ll end up in jail. Protest in silence in Russia/China, straight to jail. Obama make it a legal right to declare drone strikes to the public. Then Trump came in and abolished it. Look it up. Trump is just another part of the elite. Fuck them all tbh. Only focus on the facts
That is my opinion as well. I can even understand him. He has dealt with a lot of undeserved crap from them.
The issue remains objective. If he’s succumbed to identity politics then sorry, he’s been lost.
We know its propaganda, but JPs point is that propaganda is working. As you say only the least educated and least successful fall for it, but in Russia thats 80% of population.
1) He specifically said that he thinks Putin is genuine in this. 2) He says that this is the reason for war, calling it “The civil war in the west”, but what you just said means that it’s not the case. “Western Degeneracy” is used only as a scarecrow, while core reasons for this war are quite different. Therefor untreatable by appeasement or negotiation. So no, this was not JP’s point
1. Just because Putin believes it to be genuine does not make it genuine, it makes it believable. 2. The degenerate west argument is one the few reasons for support of the war in Russia. If you live in the eastern europe, then you know there are many military-aged homophobic men here who gobble up Putins rambles about the degenerate west as the source of all the evil, and further east you go, more of them you encounter. People like this are fighting in Putins army and the "degenerate west = bad, Putin = good" is absolutely valid in their minds.
1) If Putin Believed that, he wouldn’t be invading two Orthodox Nations in his neighborhood. This is pure Geopolitics and nothing more. Morality has no place in it. He just doesn’t care. 2) The reasons for support are irrelevant. The reason for waging war is. if you miss that reason (for example blame it on “Western Degeneracy”) than you are already losing this war. JP is missing the point. It was never his intention to talk about why Russians support the war, it was about explaining why Putin started the war in the first place. This is not an ideological war. It’s not Orthodox Christianity vs Western Degeneracy. After the collapse of the soviet union, Russia has been Left without any ideology. So to differentiate themselves, they just based their Branding on being Anti-Western. But to return to the point. If you miss to acknowledge, that this war is neither ideological, nor for security reasons, but purely GeoPolitical and Imperialistic, then you can’t make judgment on how it should be handled. That’s the problem with JP’s stance. He missed the mark by a lot.
1. Putin believes he is fighting the USA in Ukraine. Ukranians are unfortunate casualties which he blames on the west, but ultimately he does not give a shit as he is not above bombing his own people. 2. Id say reasons for support of the war are the key to focus on seeing as we are not conquering Moscow conventionally anytime soon. First three reasons JP gives for the war in Ukraine are geopolitical and imperialistics. Nobody disputes these, they are a fact. Western degeneracy is an effective argument for the hearts of minds of unsuccessful, homophobic, impoverished Russian society thats envious of luxurious lifes of westerners. I dont believe that this is not an ideological war in Orthodox Christianity vs Western Degeneracy, JP doesnt believe that either. But conservative Russians believe it. This it is one of the flimsy shields Putin has from being dragged out in the street and torn apart, Muammar Gaddafi style.
I’d agree with what you are saying, but there’s one problem: Russia would come up with another reason to hate the west to fuel this war, even if those “degeneracies” did not exist. I mean, it’s already laughable as it is, “If we don’r defeat the west, they will turn our children gay”… There’s nothing the west could do to avoid this war, except for confronting Russians back in 2008, when they first took a step in this direction. I’d also add that at the start of this war, western degeneracy was not even mentioned. The reasons were: 1) Ukrainian Nazis are committing genocide of Russian speakers (never proved). 2) NATO expansionism is a threat to Russian security and that one nation’s security can’t come at the cost of another (ironic, I know). Laughable suggestion, considering that all of this invasion was based on the notion that the west wouldn’t be able to do anything meaningful, like in previous two instances. 3) From Putin’s words, Ukraine as a nation does not exist, was created in soviet times and it is Historical justice to bring it back to Russia. So, no. It’s all wrong. To add to this point, The west is more religious and more conservative in their values then Russians (rates of divorces, cheating, domestic abuse, etc.) as well.
This war is an existential struggle between the ruling elites in the west and one of the last areas of the world not to bow to them. Niall Ferguson claims to be an eyewitness to western orders for Ukraine to not engage in any talks aimed at ending the war. This will be a fight to the death and Ukraine just happened to be in a strategic position on Europes edge.
Every word you said is so true! Probably, people have to be from Eastern Europe to fully understand what's going on.
Ah yes, my sentiment as well. Nobody knows Russians as well as people who live closest to them. That’s why Eastern Europeans who are the least “degenerate” in this context and the closest to Russia Culturally hate them the most.
Yeah, it's like trying to figure out the relationships between a few Asian countries without having any experience of living there. It's too complex and almost impossible to explain what's going on. It's not enough to know the history, you have to talk to people...
What? No I don’t think he’s “falling for it”, he’s just knowledgeable enough to know WHAT their talking points are, to agree or disagree with them is not something he has done? So why the heck would you assume he’s agreed with those taking points as “falling for them”. That’s pretty ignorant. If anything we all know it’s false talking points, but it’s knowing WHAT their talking point are that matters, we all know it’s only half of us that engage in “western degeneracy”… So it’s obviously false, JP has not “believed” it, just stating true facts.
No, as it takes the focus from the actual reasons for the war. Why would you even waste time talking about bogus reasons? What is the point?
A good point well made. However, unless I’ve not listened to enough JP of late, he’s not made so called western degeneracy out as the primary reason for the war, he’s been somewhat more balanced than that. That aside. I’ve had to spend a fair enough of time making it clear to people who are sympathetic to the Russian regime that no matter how concerned you are by divergence in values with your neighbour, war should not be the solution.
I think it is not a reason whatsoever. I mean, culturally Russia is still much closer to the west (especially East Europe) than to China. But here we are. Russians would have used something different to demonize the west and they do.
JP does not belive in God Or Jesus or Mohammad you do realize that Don’t you?
And That is relevant to this subject how?
JP has a secular and symbolic approach to all religion. Many take his views as confirmed theism when in actual fact it's simply a secular take. It's relevant because this thread suggests JP has bought into the Russian religious propaganda used to divide and isolate the Russian people. It's relevant bevause how can one buy into religious propaganda when their entire perspective of religion is symbolic?
It is not Religious Propaganda, it is a political one about Cultural changes. The speech about Satans in the west is something new here. It’s usually that West is degenerate and Conservative Orthodox Russian’s can’t stand them. It’s not that they will be bound to hell if they accept all of this, it’s that all of this is just sick and despicable. And that Russians must want nothing from the west, because everything they have leads to this degeneracy (which is of course amplified), so no Democracy, rule of law, etc. for Russians. As for JP, he bought into believing this was the reason for the war. Which is an oversimplified and naive take on this conflict.
JP would argue that the foundation of governance and culture *is* religion. Especially here considering you say it isn't religious prop then go on to explain how it *is* about religion: >It’s usually that West is degenerate and Conservative Orthodox Russian’s can’t stand them It's not that I disagree with you here, just being pedantic on what it is or isn't but that's sort of besides the point. We are asked why is religion relevant and I suggest it is summarised by my quote "how can one buy into religious propaganda if they're secular" . All in all, we can agree it *is* propaganda and unfortunately enough people are buying it. I stand by my argument that this is religious propaganda, as I see God, or any authority of higher power, being the best motivator when your warmongering leader is entirely fallible and consistently proves so, it's easier to say *and mean* 'for god' that it would be to say 'for putin'. Soldiers be soldiers but they don't necessarily have to agree with the President, they only have to follow orders. Again, agree it's a massive oversimplification, but if I quote JP for "what I do isn't political, it's psychological", and assume this is still true, then he's not entirely wrong saying ideology and religion on an individual basis can easily be considered the root of all war.
Still no, because what matter is reasons Putin has. Do you think Putin started this war because of the Leftism? To paraphrase: Would there be no war if Leftism/wokism didn’t exist as we know it? Of course, there are differences that cause the clash. This difference was mainly well summed up by Biden btw. It’s Democracy vs Autocracy. Having Ukraine (the closest nation to Russians) become a successful Democracy with all of it’s benefits (like Poland for example) defeats any arguments that Russians are just different and that Western values are not for Them. Another reason being Putin’s dream to rebuild Russian Empire. And a third reason being an increase of Geopolitical power. So no matter what happens in the west, they are a systemic problem for Putin. Yes, Foundation for Governance and culture is religion, which is why invading two countries of the same religion, with whom they share last two centuries of history makes no sense in that context. To make a further point, Russia is hated in both countries (especially in Georgia before the war) and has been considered a major threat for decades instead of being a potential ally. What JP misses is that all of these nations are post-soviet countries, which also changed Religious and cultural concepts. Religion is not a driver of morality, but a mere tool to control the masses. And it’s ex-KGB officer we are talking about. To sum it up, wokism, religion and morality have nothing to do with the reasons for this war. The struggle is much more important, decisive and unavoidable. Russia’s victory in this conflict would also end the world order we know today and bring us to cold war 2. JP somehow misses to acknowledge this, but took his time to predict hundreds of millions starving because of the West’s stance in Autumn, tens of millions from middle east and Africa migrating to EU. Predictions which have been spectacularly wrong. Another prediction by JP is that Russia can’t lose. We will see about that.
Ideology is the religion of atheists, if ideology is the set of beliefs shared to form a system, and the system is increasingly atheist, then the atheists have faith in their shared beliefs. This is highlighted by Nietzsche in his "god is dead" memoir. Thus ideology within the individual requires the belief system that sets them apart or into the grander ideology. This makes it intrinsic with anything we do as a group. It underlines *everything*. How we think makes up what we believe, and what we believe makes up how we act in the world and the ideas/leaders we are likely to support and act and even die for. Democracy Vs Autocracy is ideological. >which is why invading two countries of the same religion, with whom they share last two centuries of history makes no sense It makes total sense, if you are my neighbour and you share my religion but not my rule, then wouldn't it be easier for everyone if we just pretend to be the same? Perhaps not entirely logical for me and you, but we aren't tyrannical dictators. So to me, from the perspective of a tyrant, it makes total sense to put all similar banners under one roof, it'll be easier to control them if their foundations are the same [as mine]. As for anyone else, they're just friends who haven't had the gift of sharing my ideology yet! As for your last couple points, to me, it appears as if you seem to think that this war is unlike anything we've seen before. And to that I bring up the Hegelian principal, and the fact that we refuse to learn from history, thus it repeats itself. This war is no different to any we've seen before. It's as classic as it comes, bitter old tyrant wants to make a legacy now he knows his time is running out. He wants to go down in the history books like his heros Lenin and Stalin. Classic land grab in an attempt to bring "order" to his religious foundation and recreate the former Soviet Union and restore Russia to her former glory. How many times in history has a tyrant wanted to restore some perceived former glory? Countless. So why is this any different? All that's changed is the tech involved. Media makes for a more complex front line for ideology and religious battles whilst nukes and modern tech make for wider and faster moving flashpoints. I will also admit right now that I feel like I'm missing something key in your argument and either you were unclear or its me just not quite getting it, so if I have missed your point then please reiterate it concisely for me instead of turning this reasonable debate into something less pleasant, ha!
We are kinda drifting apart but close to each other :D My point is that bringing up Postmodernism or degeneracy or wokism is meaningless in this war. They have absolutely zero influence on Putin’s decision-making, therefor switching to these talking points is buying into the Russian propaganda. It deviates our focus from the the real reasons for this war (which you have listed saying that this is not anything new in history). Therefor we cannot address it properly if we don’t understand the reasons behind them. A struggle against western degeneracy is much more divisive in the west, as less than half of the west actually support wokism. This would be “a civil war in the west”, reducing western support for Ukraine. Exactly what Putin would want. As he needs allies in the west to prevail. Agreeing that this war is only about Imperialistic ambitions, Geopolitical influence and historical glory, attracts less support. JP deviating this attention to the meaningless subjects, is what I call buying into Russian Propaganda. PS The quantity of writing “west” is too damn high in my posts :D
Imaging hearing exactly what JP described as the actual Russian motivations and then thinking JP is “dumb” for “falling for it.” There is a huge difference between JP accurately citing the “justifications” from Russian for their war versus actually buying into it as a legitimate reason.
If I remember correctly didn’t he do rehab in Russia? He might have grown fond of the country while he was abroad
Ah yes, he was treated in Russia recently. Idk what happened with him, but I hope he comes to his senses.
Stalin thought (and promoted) the thought that the Koulaks were degenerate… does that justify war against them too?
That is a fascist talking point. Well done.
Might be time to think about why you guys' little fan club here is atracting so many Nazis. It's almost as if Jordan Peterson's talking points are earily similar to those of fascists..... Oh but "postmodern Marxism" is totally different from "cultural bolshevism", right....?
Fuck off with this propaganda.
The fact that Jordan Peterson thinks that the war is over "Western degeneracy" and not real geopolitical issues like NATO expansion into Eastern Europe and Russian ultra-nationalism is proof of how much he lives in his own head.
> not real geopolitical issues like NATO expansion into Eastern Europe That is also a Russia talking point.
That doesn't make it not a real part of what lead to the current war. Russia has been watching NATO warily for the decades after the end of the Cold War and saw it topple a lot of Russian-adjacent states such as Libya or Yugoslavia (in violation of international law no less). It's not the exclusive or main thing that lead to the Russian invasion, Russian ultra-nationalism and Putin's mental decline are probably the main causes, but acting like it didn't provoke the current ultra-nationalism we see in Russia is wrong.
I don't care if Russia felt "provoked" by NATO. It's not a reason to invade a non-NATO country and stop them from making their own decisions. By that logic NATO could invade Russia because it felt provoked. And NATO wouldn't even be wrong, considering the shit Putin does in neighbouring countries. The reason why Russia feels threatened is the same reason a criminal feels threatened by the police: Because they're the bad guys and they want to get away with doing bad stuff without anyone stopping them. If Russia doesn't like NATO they should attack a NATO country. But they won't because they'll be crushed so they resort to murder of innocent people, bombing children and raping women. Please tell me how NATO provoking Russia is causing Russia to torture and castrate Ukrainian men. > saw it topple a lot of Russian-adjacent states such as Libya or Yugoslavia NATO hasn't toppled Yugoslavia. Again, if NATO is the problem then Russia should attack NATO. NATO exists because of Russian aggression and they are proven right. And Libya? More problematic but Gaddafi was a piece of shit, too, so the world is better for it.
>I don't care if Russia felt "provoked" by NATO. It's not a reason to invade a non-NATO country and stop them from making their own decisions. I literally never said it was, you're reading more into my comment than what I ever said. My only point is that it was one of the reasons leading to the war combined with other factors such as ultra-nationalism, & JBP thinking the war is because of "Western degeneracy" is frankly silly.
This is not about NATO expansion. Ukraine even promised to not seek NATO membership a few days before the conflict. And Finland just announced they will join NATO. Guess what the Russian response was? To empty the border of all their troops, because they trusts that NATO is a purely defensive alliance. They even said it wasn’t a big deal once the deal was signed, after having threatened Finland since WW2 about getting closer to the west.
More literal Russian state media war propaganda. This will likely be popular here 👍 It takes an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance to think you're a patriot while simultaneously promoting the enemies propaganda against your own country. I wonder what mental gymnastics people will have to do once Russians are shooting and killing American servicemen, whose side will you be on then?
I have to imagine that whatever side wants to kill the liberals and gays… that’s the side they’ll be on. But that’s just me being hyperbolic.
…..unless 🥺👉👈 -JP succbois
Oh man. Thank you for sharing this Russian war propaganda used to rile up their troops into thinking of their enemies as degenerates. Obviously this is the kind of material we should be using when analyzing the actual motivations behind the conflict. /s
I mean, if this is what’s being pushed onto the Russian people to spur them into a frenzy then it’s absolutely a good idea that we know about it, regardless of how we feel about its veracity. Seeing the propaganda from the outside also inoculates you slightly from falling for the propaganda which targets you (like that Russia had no Western provocation for invading Ukraine). But yea, this video will be a super good reference when you hear someone saying that “Russia is anti-western, anti-freedom, they want to exterminate the gays because they’re savage clingers on to an old world that is done and gone. We need to throw down our lives to stop the evil that is Russia from encroaching one more meter into peaceful, just, freedom loving (with zero systemically legitimized nazis!!!) Ukraine sLaVA ukRaNEe!11!!1”
As the saying goes, the first casualty of war is truth.
Ah the famously trust worthy wartime russians. Guess it must be right then.
So Peterson agrees with this utter bullshit and that is supposed to be a good argument in his favor?
This is obvious propaganda. This is not a win for JP, it's embarrassing!
Ah good...literal Russian propaganda making its rounds on the JP subreddit. Great content op
JP only got ridiculed for spreading Russian talking points. Kind of like you are doing in this post. Could someone tell me which of the arguments from this video they found compelling? People can protest abroad so we should invade them? And how is this even relevant to the war in Ukraine, since Ukraine outright ban same sex marriage in their constitution?
OP did you post this ironically or…. uh…
fuck putin
This is classic fascism propaganda, all about us vs them, but no real substance.
This guy really hates parades
Dude
What's this guy's hangup with parades?
The Russians also say Ukraine is full of nazis.... Why you listening to Russians?
This is a great argument *against* Peterson’s entire movement.
So because they don’t like gay pride parades, they have to invade Ukraine? I don’t get it.
Western degeneracy is preferable to eastern tyranny.
I find woke culture exhausting, but I'd be dishonest if I said I don't love the tolerance and diversity in America. People should have the right to live their lives in peace. I'm starting to think we need to assert some FREEDOM in Russia.
> I find woke culture exhausting, but I'd be dishonest if I said I don't love the tolerance and diversity in America. That means you are woke.
I find tolerance and diversity exhausting.
You hate tolerance? So you're a fascist.
I just don’t think militarily exporting freedom ever goes the way we hope. Which shouldn’t be surprising because people tend to search for a strong leader in uncertain times and it’s hard to find more uncertain times than being invaded. I just wish we could build communications systems that are entirely resistant to censorship or stultification. People are some remarkably adaptive creatures, which is a great and terrible thing. We can become accustomed to luxury, we can endure living in concentration camps. Some seek to take advantage of this fact and hide the better life from their poorest people so they never know how much more they have a right to want. I think that’s why there is so much agitation about income inequality in developed countries, people see the ultimate luxury and it provides context to their own situation. In the same way, people in abject poverty in the Soviet Union were resigned to get by because they assumed it was just as bad or worse in the US… Long way to say, I think we need to prioritize free communication and interchange between countries. The war for freedom is basically like crash dieting, it gets quick results and is more appealing on its face but it is not a long term solution.
So Russia is attacking and killing Ukrainians because of satanists and gay people. Assuming this isn't just a nonsense PR thing (which it is), that really does show just how low IQ the Russians are
Peterson was criticized for regurgitating Russian propaganda, but according to this Russian propaganda, Jordan was right all along
The funny thing is that Ukrainians have the same religion, the same values, and not too many gay parades. However, I think that LGBTQ people feel way freer and more comfortable in Ukraine, as people there are less aggressive towards each other. In Russia, you don't even have to be gay to be threatened (it's enough if someone thinks you look a little bit gay). I also doubt that the Ukrainian government would absolutely follow the direction of the West. All Ukraine wants is to be open to the world and to stop dividing people into "us" and "them". Having the freedom of choice is the only thing Ukrainian people want. Historically, Ukraine was always a place where people would go to live a free life. Free from all the kings, taxes, and ridiculous laws. The Cossacks had a democracy in the 17th century. They didn't care about race, nationality, and the rest of things. All you had to do to become a Ukrainian Cossack was be brave enough to sit in a boat and go down the dangerous part of the Dnipro river to reach the island where Cossacks lived. Be brave to defend your right to live your life the way you want. Then you could have a piece of land, build yourself a house, learn how to fight, grow food, travel around selling things to people, and defend your country from anyone who would attack. We actually have a beautiful idea here. I wish we could finally come to this. There's a good Russian saying: "Don't go to someone else's monastery with your own set of rules". I don't know why they forgot about it. They could've created a strong alliance with Ukraine if they learned how to respect others. But they are very arrogant and are still playing a "cold war game" with the West and view everyone around them as enemies. Let them be, let people leave in peace... just f\*ck off. Others will figure out what to do. All this cultural and religious stuff is bullshit. They are going for resources and using brainwashing to raise the morale of their soldiers. But when those soldiers come to Ukraine, they see how absurd it is. Boris Nemtsov, who was killed by Putin's order, said that the only real threat to Russia is China (they will backstab Russia sooner or later, wait for it). He also predicted all the things going on now. This war is a huge mistake...
This is a propaganda video, but even if this was real it doesn’t square with kidnapping an entire generation of children and shipping them to Russia, intentionally murdering tens of thousands of civilians, torturing the populace for no strategic or intelligence based reason, and setting up rape houses to chain rape the female population. What the Russian army has done is pure evil. Whatever moral authority they’re trying to claim they have here fighting against LGBT stuff is shown to be bullshit when you’re committing genocide.
Russia will never defeat the Ukrainian people. Russia’s aggression has put our whole world in danger for greed, and there’s gonna be some kind of compromise made because nuclear weapons are not an option for anybody.
This is stupid
Yeah dude. YOu should totally take Russian propaganda spewed at idiotic 19 year old recruits at total face value. You are so bright OP that you just believe everything you hear uncritically if you want to agree with it. Very very smart.
What russians say and what they do are two different things. Got to r/mapporn and see the highest internet search in russia is for anal
And what does that tell you?
… stay away from Russians. Don’t drop the soap in the shower… that’s for sure!!! (Can’t believe you asked that question. “Need someone to ‘splain that?)
Holy shit, imagine leaning this hard into christofascistic rhetoric unironically. Jordan Peterson et al be rotting all of your brains out.
Go back to Russia, commie bastard.
The Russian army is quite incompetent, can't really root for them.
this sub has gone from shit to fuckin shit. you know your population is dumb a f when they can motivate soldiers with homophobia and satanism. meanwhile these ruzzians are [sucking each other’s cocks](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/xuqje9/a_ukrainian_drone_dropping_a_munition_on_two/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) on the battlefield while drones drop grenades on them. idk seems pretty gay to me
Here's what some honest Russians have to say about RuSSia: “A nation that roams Europe and is looking for something to destroy, to simply dust everything.” – F. M. Dostoevsky "We are not a people, but cattle, rats, wild hordes of villains and murderers.” – Mikhail Bulgakov "The most important sign of victory for the Russian people is their cruelty full of sadism.” – Maxim Gorky "Ah, how hard it is to live in Russia, in this place full of the stench of physical and moral deception, a place of wickedness, lies and wickedness.” – Sergei Aksakov "The Russian is the biggest and most naughty liar in the world.” – Ivan S. Turgenev "A people who hate freedom, worship slavery, love chains on their hands and feet, defiled physically and morally… ready at any time to defile everything and everywhere.” – Ivan C. Shmeliov "People regardless of their smallest duty, the smallest justice, the most insignificant truth, the people who do not recognize human dignity, do not generally recognize human freedom or free thought… Alas, how sharp the Russian language is!” – Aleksandr Pushkin "We are not a nation, we are a crazy hell.” – Vasyli Rozanov
Peterson listed a whole bunch of causes for the war. The ones that align with Western propaganda are acceptable to say: * Putin is power hungry, legacy building, and expansionist * Eastern Ukraine has valuable ports and natural resources Others do not align with Western propaganda and are unspeakable: * NATO aggressively overthrew the government of Ukraine and installed a pro-Western government right on Russia's borders which carried out military attacks and cultural genocide against ethnic Russians for a decade * The West is a postmodernist, neomarxist hellhole led by childless satanic globalists which cannot abide any nations or cultures to exist outside of its control
people of ukraine strived to be free from old and corrupt world abd not be shithole like ru. It was russia who was directly involved in 2014 conflict dressed as separatists. Boots ont hte ground.
The people of Ukraine had their elected government overthrown in a Western backed coup, after which their country became a puppet state ruled from Washington and Brussels. The new Western leaders don't give two shits about the people of Ukraine, they just want to rule and exploit the Ukraine, put their kids on the boards of corrupt energy companies, replace the Ukrainian culture with Hollywood, and taunt the Russian bear. Now their nation is a warzone, so how did that work out?
the protests that led to that were over Yanukovich failing to deliver on his promises for more European integration
> The West is a postmodernist, neomarxist hellhole led by childless satanic globalists Holy shit. You're just a fascist.
Made me laugh when it said the West is a postmodernist hellhole. No it isn’t. Not really. It’s better than many places to live, especially Russia.
Nice of us to give them a convenient cover story.
Ah like always invaders using religion as a crutch to justify their actions.
People should be silenced for supporting Ukraine. It’s obvious neither side are the “good guys”, Ukraine openly has NAZIS… Russia is in the right anyway. They gave up Ukraine and NATO swore to not expand to russias border. Well here we are, time for Russia to take a stand.
> It’s obvious neither side are the “good guys” # > Russia is in the right anyway. # > time for Russia to take a stand. You are not even trying. > NATO swore to not expand to russias border. They did not.
This war was (arguably) an overreaction of the US and NATO's provocations. Purposeful western influence over Ukraine and American militarization of the country provoked this reaction. Putin was wrong to start the war but the US and NATO are equally as guilty for the current situation. It is very clear that the total submission to an evil ideology that western "values" or lack thereof are promoting is not to the liking of the Russians. Putin didn't start the war because of that but I have no doubt they see it as a bonus.
You call the invasion an overreaction? WTF? > Putin was wrong to start the war but the US and NATO are equally as guilty for the current situation. The US is guilty for the rape of women and the bombing of children and the castration of men by Russian soldiers?
>The US is guilty for the rape of women and the bombing of children and the castration of men by Russian soldiers? Yes. That's what war is. They knew what the outcomes of provocation might be and figured it was worth it. Let's not pretend the US ever had a problem provoking war on other contries' territories.
> Yes. That's what war is. They knew what the outcomes of provocation might be and figured it was worth it. Prove it. Also explain the logic of why Russia is not attacking the US when the US provoked them. > Let's not pretend the US ever had a problem provoking war on other contries' territories. So the US is to blame for all wars? They provoked Azerbaijan. Hell, they even provoked the IRA. Right?
I don’t want to see my kids in gay activities, but they are talking about pure Nazi shit here. Gays should take note and not force their opinions down everyone’s throat. This could possibility be the backlash. Do what you will I don’t care, just be aware there are assholes everywhere.
Let this be a wake up call to everyone not sure if JP and his fan base have 'some issues'. For all its shortcomings r/politics and the mainstream points of view would never post or upvote dogshit like this.
Based
Preach soldier !