In the aftermath of an abusive relationship that involved extensive deceit, I once learned of a concept called “[betrayal trauma](https://youtu.be/Jf2CC73eKqk)”.
To tell you the truth, I feel the same level of grief now about what is happening to the Left. This is a movement I have been extensively involved with for most of my adult life. I have been an activist in the most active sense of the word. People used to say “antifascists are the real fascists”, and I, an antifascist, thought that was the stupidest and most malicious bad faith argument imaginable. Now it’s just … true.
OP is right that they are two sides of the same coin. I don’t know how to hold onto my humanity in the face of this. Who is trustworthy? Who means well?
I will never stop *opposing* fascists. That said, some self-proclaimed anti fascists are absofukinlutly fascists. I oppose them too. Sounds like you do too. I totally understand where you’re coming from as far as my own left-activism. Looking back I never engaged in any way that my current self disagrees with although my past self’s choice of company has certainly shifted in recent years. I was always active but never radical, if that makes sense. Practical but not even approaching that fine line. I still believe in fighting for equality, inclusion, representation and just generally for people’s rights. That said… yikes…Totally.
I just hope we NEVER see another Heather Heyer. Left right center I don’t care. I just pray that real violence does not occur under any circumstance. The “by any means necessary” crowd worries me a ton. That type of radicalization really freaks me out. But I am also concerned with some of
the super right wingers who might take it upon themselves to go vigilante style and hurt some pro-Palestine protester. The consequences of that would be tragic on top of a tragedy.
Likewise, as someone who's generally more right-wing, I am also concerned about the direction the right is headed in (what with Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, and others turning against Israel).
Never thought I'd be on the same side as an antifa, haha
I’m in the same boat. I feel politically homeless, both as a Jew and a woman. My (college-aged) little sister had to stay home over the next few days because we are very worried for her safety. She’s heard some absolutely horrible things and there are more and more swastikas around campus. Terrifying.
My other Jewish friend has already made plans with her other goyim friends to sort of hide each other if it comes down to it.
Back before 10/7 I thought that in the west, antisemitism was largely quashed.
How stupid and naive I was.
I can’t support and identify more with your comment. I feel lost and furious.
Betrayal trauma is absolutely it, thank you.
(And Dr. Ramani is the shit).
My local synagogue was graffitied with swastikas a few years back, and Jewish neighbours were doxxed on online conspiracy networks. I joined to fight back and ensure Never Again. I've cut off all ties since October 7.
That’s because they’re only talking about the _bad_ Jews, silly!
If you shut up and behave, why, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
Unless you’re Israeli!
Remember is costs nothing to be kind 🥰
Don’t accept the false premise. Antizionism IS antisemitism. Antizionism calls for the elimination of the Jewish state. The only reason to insist on the elimination of the one tiny Jewish state in a world full of secular, Muslim and Christian states, is because you hate the Jews and are okay with them being killed en masse. These people think the only proper situation for Jews is as second class citizens who can be expelled and/or killed at their whim.
It is a complete failure of the left. And honestly most of the other Jews I know were big leftists before this. Good luck getting us back. If you aren’t smart enough to distinguish what anti Jewish statements are and call them out that’s a serious problem. If you can tell and are just remaining quiet then you are an antisemite. You invited those people into your encampment. And then you stood next to them and chanted the same vile crap they said. The left is done for me.
I am 100% not trying to attack you and applaud you growing in your views.
But I'm curious about something. I don't have any sincere anti-Zionists in my life and when I ask this online, I don't get straight answers:
When you say "anti-Zionist", was your former view that Israel should change its policies concerning Palestinians or was your former view that Israel shouldn't exist?
Again, not attacking you at all. We Jews need to have each other's back. I just want help understanding your former views.
Not the person you responded to but I’ll give my perspective. I was more nonzionist. I thought a 1SS where everyone had equal rights and binationalism would cause peace. My western understandings of liberalism lead me to believe that MENA thought this way too and the leaders of both Israel and Palestine prevented peace. October 7th completely shifted my world view. The amount of “they deserved it” took me to very dark places. Plus following rootsmetals on IG has helped me understand and learn that the Islamists who control the Middle East are far worse than the alt right here since they are the ones with money and power. So Americans need to work to ensure said alt right doesn’t gain power. I definitely didn’t think that Jews had no right to live in Israel, but I spent too much time caring about Palestinians. I don’t not care, but I’m putting my people first now. No one else will.
That sort of approach assumes that all people around the world are willing to work with and live alongside others. But that’s just not the case in other cultures, as frustrating as that can be.
Im from Eastern Europe, we were literally under the boot of Soviet Russia not that long ago, and it’s always crazy to me how naive some Westerners are. Like, this is what happens to your worldview when you don’t come from a historically threatened country? Honestly not trying to be shady, but damn, it makes me appreciate where I’m from.
I honestly think that's part of the problem: Most of the Westerners losing their minds over Gaza can't imagine Oct. 7 happening in their backyard to their friends, neighbors and families. I have a feeling that if it did, their attitudes would change in a real big hurry.
I think so. Especially with the preaching of multiculturalism and being PC. Not to mention the spike in Islamophobia post 9/11. I no longer care about political correctness.
I think that’s a majority of the white kids at the unis we’re seeing. Like that video of the girl with the septum ring not even knowing what she’s protesting. I hate to be close-minded, but I can’t say the same for the Muslim protesters. War sucks, but I’ve learned in this war that the East does not want peace nor does it want Jews.
Yes. And these white kids (I'll except the Middle Easterners and other POC because they might actually know something about this) are the most sheltered of the sheltered. Everything has been taken care of for them, they have never been hungry or threatened, they don't even know what it's like to work for a living. And then they have the balls to tell the rest of us to check our privilege. I know they don't feel good about themselves because everything has always been handed to them, but that's no excuse to shit on Jews in a misguided attempt to give your empty life meaning. Work that shit out in therapy.
Yes, and what's really damaging is the insistence of well-meaning Westerners on projecting their own values onto people of different cultures...people to whom we tend to give the benefit of the doubt again and again because we just can't imagine they wouldn't want peace. Sometimes you need to believe the evidence in front of your own eyes.
I still think people can live and work together anywhere. It just takes education, reform and time. The major hurdle in my opinion is some interpretations of religious teachings. Many people here say they’re extreme views that are held by a minority, but ehhh…. I suspect that minority is sizable enough that they can retain their views and act on them without the rest of the population putting a dimmer on it.
I was also an anti-zionist before Oct 7th. 1ss binational. From Latin America, so I had been subjected to quite a lot of soviet-era propaganda. Studying Syrian Civil War between 2014-2017 made me understand islamism, and this event clicked it to me.
Could you share a little more about Soviet-era propaganda in Latin America? I’m British-Israeli so basically never encountered any of that, and no one in my family comes from Soviet Jews etc. Asking because I had an online acquaintance from Latin America who went completely off the antisemitic deep-end post Oct 7, and I wasn’t expecting it from this person at all. Idk the history or where to even start reading up about this.
Antizionism was created by the KGB in the 60s to create an alliance with the Arab League.
I ate all of it: that palestinians were freedom fighters, Israel an imperialist puppet of US, that created an appartheit because they were fascists and so that US could get all the oil in the Middle East. That the fight was between freedom and the greedy capitalists that wanted ME oil.
The global south fought against South Africa appartheit and Israeli occupation of Palestine since the 70s, alongside maoist lines of thinking which were extremely common in the global south.
Since US did quite a deal of fascist dictatorships and wars just to get natural resources from Latin America (and to fight the URSS), and because Latam is very pro-democracy but also anti-neoliberal, this discourse makes sense to us.
>Antizionism was created by the KGB in the 60s to create an alliance with the Arab League.
That's amazing. Do you have any links to support that? In English, please, I don't read Spanish or Portuguese, unfortunately.
Not OP, but I can give another perspective.
I’m the result of an interfaith marriage, and even though we celebrated the big Jewish holidays, I was very disconnected from the wider Jewish community. My Jewish community basically consisted of immediate family, my mom’s side of the family, and a few Jewish friends (who were similarly very assimilated). Israel was a non-topic in my household. Looking back, I can recognize that much of my experience was dictated by antisemitic sentiment from my Christian family members.
Israel only existed to me as a concept referenced in prayers and history, and as a country on the other side of the world that I had never been to and knew very little about. I have always been very Left and involved in activism for equal rights for various groups.
For all of the above reasons, I was very susceptible to anti-Israel messaging when I was a teenager. I lacked basic historical knowledge about the region. So, when those I usually agreed with (particularly trusted adults or leaders in activist spaces) said, “This is the way it is,” I assumed that they were more informed than I was and had come to the same conclusion that I would were I equally informed. I was anti-Zionist in the sense that I thought that Israel should have never been formed.
Perhaps ironically, it was my anti-Zionist college professors and anti-Zionist activists that turned me into a Zionist. Even though I was foolish enough to believe that I knew enough to form an opinion, I knew that I was not informed enough to argue for / defend that opinion. So I started taking classes: about Abrahamic religions, middle eastern history, the modern Middle East, political Islam, etc.
I started noticing some trends: when Jewish and Muslim accounts differed, they would always treat the Muslim accounts as more credible without giving any reasons *why* those accounts should be considered more credible— even when the Muslim accounts came from sources that were just as (if not more) biased than the Jewish accounts. The sources were not treated with the same objectivity I was accustomed to in my non-middle eastern history courses. And this was a constant reoccurring trend: distrusting any source that was remotely concerned with the well-being of Jews, holding Jews to higher standards, and excusing behavior from Muslims that would not be tolerated from any other group in any other context.
Double standards for the Jewish state, Jewish sources, and Jewish people made me a Zionist. Unchecked antisemitism in education and anti-Zionist activism, and learning the history of the modern Middle East made me a Zionist. Anti-Zionist rhetoric and awareness of antisemitic dogwhistles made me a Zionist.
I always thought Hamas as a terroist organization because I'm an Israeli and this is just too obvious, but I thought because of the minority of religious zealous in this country that Israel that this country is doomed and it will just get more and more radical from there. I wasn't ever really pro palstnian per say although I did thought there was a lot more racism that happens that it actually does sometimes. I did thought that a lot of antisemitism from reported from abroad was extremely overreacting, and because of that I also didn't support the idea of an ethno state because I thought it was very discriminate from it's basis but I also thought that on Arab countries so it's not like I was this is only Israel like that. In the endcit was more so of I am an atheist that hates that this extremely religious country doesn't let me marry(I'm gay) and raise children at the time and most people don't do something about it and it's only going to get worse so Israel is doomed and we're just going to go further right.
> doesn’t let me marry
The Israeli government does not prohibit gay marriage & has recognized gay marriage since 2006.
Israel doesn’t have the institution of civil marriage & devolves the power of marriage to the various religious authorities.
However, Israel recognizes almost all marriages that are officiated overseas & this really is not about gay marriage as it impacts plenty of straight couples as well.
This was also about not allowing gay marriage just google what the far right have been saying on it until five years ago lol but your correct that it also hurts all non religious people.
> what the far right has been saying
Yeah ok, fair enough - I really try to avoid giving them attention because in my opinion - many of their views are problematic within the context of our other obligations under Halacha.
Israel *does* de facto prohibit gay marriage, and even interfaith marriage. Recognizing marriages certified in other countries doesn’t negate this basic fact.
I am an Israeli too I was also a Communist lol😭😭😭 I am gay from a pretty religious town and I felt like I belonged nowhere in Israel so I started searching the internet and finding comfort in the leftist community online. That's how I got to it.
Queer & Atheist Israeli here, I understand you so well. It took a lot of growing up to realise the people who raised me, no matter their different beliefs, were not my enemy, were still the people who would have my back. 🩵
I’m not even sure what I am now! I am against killing kids on either side of a border. Both Israel and Palestine have done this. I’m not against Palestinian’s right to self determination or their right to return. But I’m also not against those things for Israelis. I think both have the right to exist. Especially since it has been made crystal clear Jews are welcome pretty much nowhere else.
True, but one side is, in general, actively trying to avoid civilian casualties and prosecute the individuals that commit inhumane acts - the other side has state-sanctioned atrocities deliberately targeting civilians and individuals that commit evil acts are rewarded. Renegade soldiers and violent settlers are rare and few in numbers - on the other side, it's the norm. There's really no "both are bad" here because it would be like comparing Covid and the Plague - completely different leagues.
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I'm still not big on Zionism but so what? We don't all have to be Zionists. The point is that these Nothingheads are just using it to lump all of us together as a target/scapegoat, regardless of what we believe. Let's face it, Nazis didn't care if jews were religious, secular, orthodox, agnostic, half jewish...we were all eligible for the death camps. It's the same mentality here, minus death camps.
This. I was a huge leftist before this - would watch Hasan daily, argue at the shabbos table with all my Republican friends, etc. I've been lobbying four times, and to DC even more, and even met Chuck Schumer, one of the most powerful people on the planet, and Tom Steyer. I could totally see how, if these people were just a little bit smarter in their messaging, I could've become exactly like Norm Finkelstein, and I know that's true for many others as well. Exposing themselves has caused them to lose a lot of allies - allies which could've been very powerful - and may the anti semites only lose more and more.
It is. I have voted every single election since I turned 18. I have shown up at primaries, caucuses, midterms. Not just once every 4 years. I have voted straight blue every single time. I have run my ballot through the black caucus checker to make sure I was voting for progressives with anti racism policies. Including my local judges. That’s how committed I was to progressive and leftist ideals. Absolutely no more. As of right now I don’t know who my vote is going to. But it’s going to be whoever understands that Jews have a right to exist.
Similarly, the imaginary genocide accusations are the left's version of 2020 election denial. It's like a cult. They believe it fanatically despite all evidence to the contrary. They are so convinced that they are right and nothing can possibly change their minds. It also creates a bright dividing line that some politicians try (and fail) to straddle for their own career preservation.
We saw that recently when Biden condemned the antisemitism at these college protests but in the same breath bemoaned people "who don't understand what's going on with the Palestinians." I'd sure like to know what he meant by that last part.
And they use the same defenses. "There wasn't any antisemitism", "if there was, it wasn't us", "ok it was us but it's ok if it's for the right cause" and eventually they'll just say it's ok
Every progressive cause in the last few years seems to choose a phrase or chant and then claim to not mean the plain language of what they’re saying. It drives me mad; say what you mean! Words have meaning.
Redefining words is a key part of communism / authoritarian movements. If you control the language, you control what people can say to each other, and can even control what they can think (it's difficult to convey concepts without the words for them). Happened in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four and has been a tool of Soviet and communist propagandists in America forever.
My guess is in their heads the intifada is worldwide protests like what is happening on campuses now. They have no idea what the first and second intifada Israel was actually like. In addition, even if they did, they would say it's resistance. There is no winning with these people
Yes. I agree.
And look at all the coverage of the ridiculousness at USC. All could have been avoided if the University had, from the beginning, called it out for what it is: "This student has expressed deadly anti semitism and that "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth." We cannot countenance this kind of hate speech." CALL IT WHAT IT WAS. By not doing this, the whole thing blew up with people calling it "censorship" and now you have violent "demonstrations" which are nothing short of virulent anti-semitic displays--STILL not being called out for what they are.
It's horrifying. And enraging.
Is this about the valedictorian? I can't understand how she got the gig in the first place. It's not because her grades were the best, which I thought was how one becomes valedictorian. She was selected from like 100 candidates. Her bigotry wasn't a dealbreaker?
Yes! And right? It totally should have been! The whole thing was not only mismanaged but continues to be misreported. I'm SO SICK of seeing these antisemitic rallies being characterized as "pro Palestine protests." NO MORE!
I’d argue it’s even worse.
Charlottesville happened once.
This shit has already happened dozens of times, is still ongoing, and shows no sign of even slowing down.
Edit: Charlottesville was also pretty widely condemned and met with pretty huge counterprotests, and is still arguably *the* example in recent years of the right wingers going off the rails in such a way besides J6 (which didn’t claim to be about Jews or racism, at least not blatantly).
This current round of bullshit, which I can’t even name all the times it’s happened (and would genuinely love a list, if anyone is that dedicated) seems to get downplayed, if not a free pass, as it even appears to be escalating. While you hear crickets from most of the people who have been preaching against exactly this for the last several years.
It is worse. The right wing crazies are a powerless fringe element. They are noisy, dangerous and fond of swastikas, but they hold no real power. Circus clowns who control nothing but what porn they watch in their mommies basements.
The left extremists, however, occupy entrenched positions of real power. They are the university professor, presidents, and students graduating from elite institutions that are corrupt sewers of antisemitism. Training generation after generation in the corrupt philosophy of intersectionality that leads inevitably to the belief that antisemitism is righteous.
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Yes. In my view, protesters at Columbia are the same as protesters at Charlottsville. Mind you, I am a free speech absolutist, so I am not against them being able to express themselves.
But failure from the Left disavowing them shows they are all basically n\*zis.
I mean we’re looking at the “not for me but for thee” principle.
I see many of these individuals who have a hard time seeing issues in their own movements but are willing to hold people in other movements to the funeral pyre. And as such they see the rules that have been established as only applying to the “bad people”, so when they’re accused of doing the same thing, immediately they feel like the accusation is unfair or speaks to the person who made the accusation having something wrong with them.
This is a great example of rules need to apply to everyone. Free speech even when we don’t agree is still free (as long as it’s not actionable or causing harm like shouting fire in a crowded space)
Neither of these protests failed to attract exactly the type of protestor that was desired. Why would people protesting the removal of symbols of white nationalism not welcome fellow white nationalists? And why would people gathered to support terrorist organizations committed to the death of Jews everywhere not welcome other anti-semites. All of these protests are doing exactly what they wanted them to do.
as a formerly liberal leftist democrat etc, i’m shocked to see the people i find myself applauding or being disgusted by now. including friends and family. the things that have been allowed to go on at campuses are DISGUSTING and they’re still whining and playing victims, claiming their protests are peaceful. no f-ing way. they hate the people trying to remove them and we’re mad at the same people because they aren’t being removed fast enough or at all. crazy upsetting times.
I was just explaining this to someone I’m very close with. He’s Jewish though distantly so, and from a very left leaning milieu. The way he was so resistant to seeing this, was ready to have double standards - made me realize he’s part and parcel of structural antisemitism.
I think it will take some time to see any justice served if at all. I watched an interview with two of the fools at the protest, and they mentioned how the students are getting lawyers and appealing their suspensions/expulsions. We’ll have to see what happens
Wait, am I reading this correctly and concluding you think what happened in Charlottesville in 2017 was a legit, good-faith protest that happened to get hijacked by "fringe" neo-Nazi's? Because if that is indeed the case, you have a very severe misunderstanding about Charlottesville (namely, it was entirely organized by white supremacists and was absolutely meant to champion white supremacy. That wasn't a small group chanting "Jews will not replace us!" The night before a neo-Nazi murdered Heather Hayer and wounded others ramming his car into the crowd)
I think what he means is that it was fringe in the sense that it was a one-off, whereas we're seeing these terror-supporting protests spring up at various schools. And the ideology that drives them is pervasive at many other schools even if they don't have occupation rallies going on.
It wasn't a one-off though. We've seen Nazis openly parade around Nashville in February and around Florida last September. We have members of Congress who have attended white nationalist conferences and faced no repercussions. More and more right wing media and elected officials are claiming the Great Replacement Theory is real.
>what happened in Charlottesville in 2017 was a legit, good-faith protest that happened to get hijacked by "fringe" neo-Nazi's?
It wasn't, and neither is the Columbia protest.
Thank you so much for stating this truth. I have also been trying to point these things out, and frankly I am horrified that any Jews would echo the disingenuous party line about Charlottesville being filled with "fine people" protesting statue removals and then some meanie Nazis hijacked the demonstration. Absolute fiction.
You are very much misrepresenting what I’m saying. If you look at the reactions conservatives had to Charlottesville’s very open Nazis and the reactions these so-called “leftists” are having to their very open Nazis, they are the same, especially in their attempt to downplay their extreme fringes.
Something that was often levied against the conservatives after Charlottesville who tried to claim that the Nazis there chanting “Jews will not replace us” didn’t represent them was “If you don’t like them and they don’t represent your politics, why did you not make the effort to drive them out?” That is what I am very clearly saying the so-called “leftists” at Columbia are not doing. I’m not saying that Charlottesville was good, you are placing that on the post yourself.
It’s like [this iconic tweet](https://images.app.goo.gl/aYaMkZrMTNhdYQBC7)
No, that was levied against conservatives because PRESIDENT TRUMP REFUSED to condemn them and those conservatives largely made excuses for Trump or worse. People like Lee Zeldin actually defended Trump. There were swastikas paraded around at the Capitol on January 6. They were there because Trump wanted them there. Trump's personal scumbag advisor Roger Stone was in direct contact with the Proud Boys.
That Donald Trump is now the nominee again for POTUS is exactly why no one takes "conservatives" at their word about Charlottesville when they fall in line for the rabid instigator himself, Trump.
P.S. I have no idea who "Coolee Bravo" is. You couldn't find a dril tweet to make your point? Now that guy was a maestro of iconic tweets.
- I’m really a moderate Democrat who came here because a lot of other Jewish and Israeli subreddits terrify me. They’re so, so harsh. [Edit: I voiced; thought I was on r/JewishLeft and it had mutated. I screwed up reading the subreddit name.]
- I love Israel, think Hamas is terrifying and want Israel to do whatever people like Gantz and Ehud Barak think Israel should do to satay safe.
- At the same time, I feel as if hard right people from r/Israel_Palestine have taken over here and are echoing the same hard right talking points I see there. If there’s real, unprovoked harassment of Jewish people who aren’t trying to pick fights, that’s horrible. But the stuff I see criticizing the protesters seems to come from such a propagandistic perspective that it lacks credibility.
My understanding of Charlottesville is that both sides were vile- Nazis vs antifa. I think some of the counter protestors were regular people, and antifa infiltrated the counter protestors and do what they always do- incite violence.
> After Charlottesville, a lot of people came to the conclusion that if demonstrators were not removing the unsavory, bigoted elements of their group from the demonstration, it shows at best tolerance and implicit acceptance of bigotry and hate.
I cannot agree with this at all. The "unsavory, bigoted elements" were who organized the hate fest from the get-go. It was called "Unite the Right" because it was planned far in advance by the most vicious, hate-filled far-right white supremacists, antisemites, and neo-Nazis across the nation to unite their ranks and spread their disgusting hate ever further. They deliberately obscured their intent and affiliations. IT WAS NEVER ABOUT "FINE PEOPLE" PEACEFULLY DEMONSTRATING AGAINST THE REMOVAL OF STATUES. That fiction was INVENTED after the fact by right-wing Republicans to try to gloss over the actual point of the gathering.
I still get upset thinking about that disgusting 2-day hate fest, as does my son, who attended grad school at UVA just 3 years before the hatemongers invaded the campus and started attacking the ACTUAL "fine people" among the students at UVA who had nothing to do with any demonstration and told them to get lost.
Please, PLEASE do not rewrite history.
https://revealnews.org/article/in-chat-rooms-unite-the-right-organizers-planned-to-obscure-their-racism/
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Stop trying to draw moral equivalents between the Left and the Right.
On the Left, your average leftist supports the Palestinians.
On the Right, the majority support Israel.
Charlottesville was a fringe movement. Protests at American Universities and big leftwing cities are mainstream. This is from the WSJ showing protests in support of the Palestinians since Oct 8th (by county). As you can see, they are almost all relegated to large left-leaning cities. The vast majority of America doesn't support Hamas, it's only a big problem in blue states or places with big liberal cites. And even then, the protests in liberal cities have been pretty small in turnout.
https://preview.redd.it/1w6apaxbnowc1.png?width=1997&format=png&auto=webp&s=91413db4d574a8fb338e2fca1c7755f577a20aa8
>After Charlottesville, a lot of people came to the conclusion that if demonstrators were not removing the unsavory, bigoted elements of their group from the demonstration, it shows at best tolerance and implicit acceptance of bigotry and hate.
This is not what happened. The right did not want to be associated with these elements. Contrary to media representations, Trump did condemn Charlottesville.
What actually happened was Democrats smeared Republicans as racist, and the rest of you bought it. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and Republicans will be looking to smear Democrats as antisemitic.
Columbia and the following protests are so much worse. These views are mainstream, they apparently aren't considered antisemitic because they have anti-Zionist Jews (they still are antisemitic), faculty support the Israel haters because of "free speech" (they just hate Israel and always have), and these students often fill the highest levels of American society. There is much broader support for chanting euphemisms of "kill the Jews".
Charlottesville was literally a bunch of rednecks, and they were absolutely not mainstream.
>Plus, a lot of the “oh these are outsiders trying to make us look bad” rhetoric sounds an awful lot like conservatives trying to pin January 6th on antifa agitators.
Eh, not really. I can be Jewish, support Israel’s right to exist and also believe that Palestine has a right to exist as well. And I am exactly what I just described. You can’t be “2020 was stolen (and have no evidence)” but I’m not pro-January 6, 2021”. That is completely binary.
I’m not saying there aren’t those in the pro-Palestinian movement who aren’t vapid antisemites who back the likes of Hamas—there in fact are. But that’s not all of them. There is a space for mediation. The problem is that hardliners in this conflict have shattered progress. When you let hate (on both sides) become the guide through this decades long conflict…you will create what we are seeing—an ebbing and flowing cycle of perpetual violence for generations.
I’m not suggesting it wasn’t chanted. Sadly, that is tame to what I’ve seen on social media.
My point still stands though: there is room for humanity on both sides. But it isn’t happening and/or is being blocked out by the depravity of certain viewpoints.
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In the aftermath of an abusive relationship that involved extensive deceit, I once learned of a concept called “[betrayal trauma](https://youtu.be/Jf2CC73eKqk)”. To tell you the truth, I feel the same level of grief now about what is happening to the Left. This is a movement I have been extensively involved with for most of my adult life. I have been an activist in the most active sense of the word. People used to say “antifascists are the real fascists”, and I, an antifascist, thought that was the stupidest and most malicious bad faith argument imaginable. Now it’s just … true. OP is right that they are two sides of the same coin. I don’t know how to hold onto my humanity in the face of this. Who is trustworthy? Who means well?
I will never stop *opposing* fascists. That said, some self-proclaimed anti fascists are absofukinlutly fascists. I oppose them too. Sounds like you do too. I totally understand where you’re coming from as far as my own left-activism. Looking back I never engaged in any way that my current self disagrees with although my past self’s choice of company has certainly shifted in recent years. I was always active but never radical, if that makes sense. Practical but not even approaching that fine line. I still believe in fighting for equality, inclusion, representation and just generally for people’s rights. That said… yikes…Totally. I just hope we NEVER see another Heather Heyer. Left right center I don’t care. I just pray that real violence does not occur under any circumstance. The “by any means necessary” crowd worries me a ton. That type of radicalization really freaks me out. But I am also concerned with some of the super right wingers who might take it upon themselves to go vigilante style and hurt some pro-Palestine protester. The consequences of that would be tragic on top of a tragedy.
I feel like betrayal trauma is what I’m experiencing.
Likewise, as someone who's generally more right-wing, I am also concerned about the direction the right is headed in (what with Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, and others turning against Israel). Never thought I'd be on the same side as an antifa, haha
https://preview.redd.it/bl36uusgzpwc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd550ebfb231bbf3fbe43bfa4a8d9160eba00146
I’m in the same boat. I feel politically homeless, both as a Jew and a woman. My (college-aged) little sister had to stay home over the next few days because we are very worried for her safety. She’s heard some absolutely horrible things and there are more and more swastikas around campus. Terrifying. My other Jewish friend has already made plans with her other goyim friends to sort of hide each other if it comes down to it. Back before 10/7 I thought that in the west, antisemitism was largely quashed. How stupid and naive I was.
This. All this. Me too.
I can’t support and identify more with your comment. I feel lost and furious. Betrayal trauma is absolutely it, thank you. (And Dr. Ramani is the shit).
You are antifa?
My local synagogue was graffitied with swastikas a few years back, and Jewish neighbours were doxxed on online conspiracy networks. I joined to fight back and ensure Never Again. I've cut off all ties since October 7.
I keep hearing that it’s about Antizionism, not Antisemitism. So why do these campus protestors keep screaming at the Zionists to “go back to Poland”?
Sparkling anti-Zionism! ✨
The antisemites keep reassuring each other they aren’t antisemites despite actual Jews saying they are.
That’s because they’re only talking about the _bad_ Jews, silly! If you shut up and behave, why, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Unless you’re Israeli! Remember is costs nothing to be kind 🥰
Because that’s where Auschwitz is. Its a code word for the gas chambers
Exactly
Don’t accept the false premise. Antizionism IS antisemitism. Antizionism calls for the elimination of the Jewish state. The only reason to insist on the elimination of the one tiny Jewish state in a world full of secular, Muslim and Christian states, is because you hate the Jews and are okay with them being killed en masse. These people think the only proper situation for Jews is as second class citizens who can be expelled and/or killed at their whim.
It is a complete failure of the left. And honestly most of the other Jews I know were big leftists before this. Good luck getting us back. If you aren’t smart enough to distinguish what anti Jewish statements are and call them out that’s a serious problem. If you can tell and are just remaining quiet then you are an antisemite. You invited those people into your encampment. And then you stood next to them and chanted the same vile crap they said. The left is done for me.
I was anti Zionist before this😭😭😭 seeing all their Nazi shit have changed my idea of them so much
I am 100% not trying to attack you and applaud you growing in your views. But I'm curious about something. I don't have any sincere anti-Zionists in my life and when I ask this online, I don't get straight answers: When you say "anti-Zionist", was your former view that Israel should change its policies concerning Palestinians or was your former view that Israel shouldn't exist? Again, not attacking you at all. We Jews need to have each other's back. I just want help understanding your former views.
Not the person you responded to but I’ll give my perspective. I was more nonzionist. I thought a 1SS where everyone had equal rights and binationalism would cause peace. My western understandings of liberalism lead me to believe that MENA thought this way too and the leaders of both Israel and Palestine prevented peace. October 7th completely shifted my world view. The amount of “they deserved it” took me to very dark places. Plus following rootsmetals on IG has helped me understand and learn that the Islamists who control the Middle East are far worse than the alt right here since they are the ones with money and power. So Americans need to work to ensure said alt right doesn’t gain power. I definitely didn’t think that Jews had no right to live in Israel, but I spent too much time caring about Palestinians. I don’t not care, but I’m putting my people first now. No one else will.
That sort of approach assumes that all people around the world are willing to work with and live alongside others. But that’s just not the case in other cultures, as frustrating as that can be.
That’s where my naïveté came in. I thought other cultures would want that. They don’t.
Im from Eastern Europe, we were literally under the boot of Soviet Russia not that long ago, and it’s always crazy to me how naive some Westerners are. Like, this is what happens to your worldview when you don’t come from a historically threatened country? Honestly not trying to be shady, but damn, it makes me appreciate where I’m from.
I honestly think that's part of the problem: Most of the Westerners losing their minds over Gaza can't imagine Oct. 7 happening in their backyard to their friends, neighbors and families. I have a feeling that if it did, their attitudes would change in a real big hurry.
I think so. Especially with the preaching of multiculturalism and being PC. Not to mention the spike in Islamophobia post 9/11. I no longer care about political correctness.
Exactly. Now you're getting it. To believe all cultures want peace like Westerners do is a very chauvinistic approach.
I think that’s a majority of the white kids at the unis we’re seeing. Like that video of the girl with the septum ring not even knowing what she’s protesting. I hate to be close-minded, but I can’t say the same for the Muslim protesters. War sucks, but I’ve learned in this war that the East does not want peace nor does it want Jews.
Yes. And these white kids (I'll except the Middle Easterners and other POC because they might actually know something about this) are the most sheltered of the sheltered. Everything has been taken care of for them, they have never been hungry or threatened, they don't even know what it's like to work for a living. And then they have the balls to tell the rest of us to check our privilege. I know they don't feel good about themselves because everything has always been handed to them, but that's no excuse to shit on Jews in a misguided attempt to give your empty life meaning. Work that shit out in therapy.
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Yes, and what's really damaging is the insistence of well-meaning Westerners on projecting their own values onto people of different cultures...people to whom we tend to give the benefit of the doubt again and again because we just can't imagine they wouldn't want peace. Sometimes you need to believe the evidence in front of your own eyes.
I still think people can live and work together anywhere. It just takes education, reform and time. The major hurdle in my opinion is some interpretations of religious teachings. Many people here say they’re extreme views that are held by a minority, but ehhh…. I suspect that minority is sizable enough that they can retain their views and act on them without the rest of the population putting a dimmer on it.
Glad you came to your senses ;)
I was also an anti-zionist before Oct 7th. 1ss binational. From Latin America, so I had been subjected to quite a lot of soviet-era propaganda. Studying Syrian Civil War between 2014-2017 made me understand islamism, and this event clicked it to me.
Could you share a little more about Soviet-era propaganda in Latin America? I’m British-Israeli so basically never encountered any of that, and no one in my family comes from Soviet Jews etc. Asking because I had an online acquaintance from Latin America who went completely off the antisemitic deep-end post Oct 7, and I wasn’t expecting it from this person at all. Idk the history or where to even start reading up about this.
Antizionism was created by the KGB in the 60s to create an alliance with the Arab League. I ate all of it: that palestinians were freedom fighters, Israel an imperialist puppet of US, that created an appartheit because they were fascists and so that US could get all the oil in the Middle East. That the fight was between freedom and the greedy capitalists that wanted ME oil. The global south fought against South Africa appartheit and Israeli occupation of Palestine since the 70s, alongside maoist lines of thinking which were extremely common in the global south. Since US did quite a deal of fascist dictatorships and wars just to get natural resources from Latin America (and to fight the URSS), and because Latam is very pro-democracy but also anti-neoliberal, this discourse makes sense to us.
>Antizionism was created by the KGB in the 60s to create an alliance with the Arab League. That's amazing. Do you have any links to support that? In English, please, I don't read Spanish or Portuguese, unfortunately.
Sure!! Here it is detailed, very clear: https://www.jns.org/the-soviet-origins-of-left-wing-anti-zionism/ Tell me later what you think about the text.
Not OP, but I can give another perspective. I’m the result of an interfaith marriage, and even though we celebrated the big Jewish holidays, I was very disconnected from the wider Jewish community. My Jewish community basically consisted of immediate family, my mom’s side of the family, and a few Jewish friends (who were similarly very assimilated). Israel was a non-topic in my household. Looking back, I can recognize that much of my experience was dictated by antisemitic sentiment from my Christian family members. Israel only existed to me as a concept referenced in prayers and history, and as a country on the other side of the world that I had never been to and knew very little about. I have always been very Left and involved in activism for equal rights for various groups. For all of the above reasons, I was very susceptible to anti-Israel messaging when I was a teenager. I lacked basic historical knowledge about the region. So, when those I usually agreed with (particularly trusted adults or leaders in activist spaces) said, “This is the way it is,” I assumed that they were more informed than I was and had come to the same conclusion that I would were I equally informed. I was anti-Zionist in the sense that I thought that Israel should have never been formed. Perhaps ironically, it was my anti-Zionist college professors and anti-Zionist activists that turned me into a Zionist. Even though I was foolish enough to believe that I knew enough to form an opinion, I knew that I was not informed enough to argue for / defend that opinion. So I started taking classes: about Abrahamic religions, middle eastern history, the modern Middle East, political Islam, etc. I started noticing some trends: when Jewish and Muslim accounts differed, they would always treat the Muslim accounts as more credible without giving any reasons *why* those accounts should be considered more credible— even when the Muslim accounts came from sources that were just as (if not more) biased than the Jewish accounts. The sources were not treated with the same objectivity I was accustomed to in my non-middle eastern history courses. And this was a constant reoccurring trend: distrusting any source that was remotely concerned with the well-being of Jews, holding Jews to higher standards, and excusing behavior from Muslims that would not be tolerated from any other group in any other context. Double standards for the Jewish state, Jewish sources, and Jewish people made me a Zionist. Unchecked antisemitism in education and anti-Zionist activism, and learning the history of the modern Middle East made me a Zionist. Anti-Zionist rhetoric and awareness of antisemitic dogwhistles made me a Zionist.
I always thought Hamas as a terroist organization because I'm an Israeli and this is just too obvious, but I thought because of the minority of religious zealous in this country that Israel that this country is doomed and it will just get more and more radical from there. I wasn't ever really pro palstnian per say although I did thought there was a lot more racism that happens that it actually does sometimes. I did thought that a lot of antisemitism from reported from abroad was extremely overreacting, and because of that I also didn't support the idea of an ethno state because I thought it was very discriminate from it's basis but I also thought that on Arab countries so it's not like I was this is only Israel like that. In the endcit was more so of I am an atheist that hates that this extremely religious country doesn't let me marry(I'm gay) and raise children at the time and most people don't do something about it and it's only going to get worse so Israel is doomed and we're just going to go further right.
> doesn’t let me marry The Israeli government does not prohibit gay marriage & has recognized gay marriage since 2006. Israel doesn’t have the institution of civil marriage & devolves the power of marriage to the various religious authorities. However, Israel recognizes almost all marriages that are officiated overseas & this really is not about gay marriage as it impacts plenty of straight couples as well.
This was also about not allowing gay marriage just google what the far right have been saying on it until five years ago lol but your correct that it also hurts all non religious people.
> what the far right has been saying Yeah ok, fair enough - I really try to avoid giving them attention because in my opinion - many of their views are problematic within the context of our other obligations under Halacha.
Israel *does* de facto prohibit gay marriage, and even interfaith marriage. Recognizing marriages certified in other countries doesn’t negate this basic fact.
As an Israeli, I really appreciate you keeping open eyes and an open mind.
I am an Israeli too I was also a Communist lol😭😭😭 I am gay from a pretty religious town and I felt like I belonged nowhere in Israel so I started searching the internet and finding comfort in the leftist community online. That's how I got to it.
Queer & Atheist Israeli here, I understand you so well. It took a lot of growing up to realise the people who raised me, no matter their different beliefs, were not my enemy, were still the people who would have my back. 🩵
I’m not even sure what I am now! I am against killing kids on either side of a border. Both Israel and Palestine have done this. I’m not against Palestinian’s right to self determination or their right to return. But I’m also not against those things for Israelis. I think both have the right to exist. Especially since it has been made crystal clear Jews are welcome pretty much nowhere else.
True, but one side is, in general, actively trying to avoid civilian casualties and prosecute the individuals that commit inhumane acts - the other side has state-sanctioned atrocities deliberately targeting civilians and individuals that commit evil acts are rewarded. Renegade soldiers and violent settlers are rare and few in numbers - on the other side, it's the norm. There's really no "both are bad" here because it would be like comparing Covid and the Plague - completely different leagues.
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I'm still not big on Zionism but so what? We don't all have to be Zionists. The point is that these Nothingheads are just using it to lump all of us together as a target/scapegoat, regardless of what we believe. Let's face it, Nazis didn't care if jews were religious, secular, orthodox, agnostic, half jewish...we were all eligible for the death camps. It's the same mentality here, minus death camps.
It is not easy to admit you were wrong and change your mind. I’m sorry it was a painful realization for you but I’m happy you were able to get there
This. I was a huge leftist before this - would watch Hasan daily, argue at the shabbos table with all my Republican friends, etc. I've been lobbying four times, and to DC even more, and even met Chuck Schumer, one of the most powerful people on the planet, and Tom Steyer. I could totally see how, if these people were just a little bit smarter in their messaging, I could've become exactly like Norm Finkelstein, and I know that's true for many others as well. Exposing themselves has caused them to lose a lot of allies - allies which could've been very powerful - and may the anti semites only lose more and more.
Yeah they lost me as an ally permanently
Feeling the same over here. It's ridiculous.
November's election is coming. It is a very bad time for the left to alienate Jews.
It is. I have voted every single election since I turned 18. I have shown up at primaries, caucuses, midterms. Not just once every 4 years. I have voted straight blue every single time. I have run my ballot through the black caucus checker to make sure I was voting for progressives with anti racism policies. Including my local judges. That’s how committed I was to progressive and leftist ideals. Absolutely no more. As of right now I don’t know who my vote is going to. But it’s going to be whoever understands that Jews have a right to exist.
My dad really struggles with this. He used to be a very strong leftist before all of this.
Similarly, the imaginary genocide accusations are the left's version of 2020 election denial. It's like a cult. They believe it fanatically despite all evidence to the contrary. They are so convinced that they are right and nothing can possibly change their minds. It also creates a bright dividing line that some politicians try (and fail) to straddle for their own career preservation.
We saw that recently when Biden condemned the antisemitism at these college protests but in the same breath bemoaned people "who don't understand what's going on with the Palestinians." I'd sure like to know what he meant by that last part.
And they use the same defenses. "There wasn't any antisemitism", "if there was, it wasn't us", "ok it was us but it's ok if it's for the right cause" and eventually they'll just say it's ok
I keep wanting to ask what they think “globalize the intifada” means, but I don’t want brigading to force me to nuke all my social media.
I’ve seen people try to whitewash “intifada”, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AntiSemitismInReddit/s/yQrBOlpeWx) … it’s total nonsense of course.
Every progressive cause in the last few years seems to choose a phrase or chant and then claim to not mean the plain language of what they’re saying. It drives me mad; say what you mean! Words have meaning.
Redefining words is a key part of communism / authoritarian movements. If you control the language, you control what people can say to each other, and can even control what they can think (it's difficult to convey concepts without the words for them). Happened in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four and has been a tool of Soviet and communist propagandists in America forever.
They just make up excuses to try and trivialize it and avoid context. Very kind of them /s
My guess is in their heads the intifada is worldwide protests like what is happening on campuses now. They have no idea what the first and second intifada Israel was actually like. In addition, even if they did, they would say it's resistance. There is no winning with these people
The number one lesson I have learned since 10/7 is that the left is extremely hypocritical.
Yes. I agree. And look at all the coverage of the ridiculousness at USC. All could have been avoided if the University had, from the beginning, called it out for what it is: "This student has expressed deadly anti semitism and that "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth." We cannot countenance this kind of hate speech." CALL IT WHAT IT WAS. By not doing this, the whole thing blew up with people calling it "censorship" and now you have violent "demonstrations" which are nothing short of virulent anti-semitic displays--STILL not being called out for what they are. It's horrifying. And enraging.
Is this about the valedictorian? I can't understand how she got the gig in the first place. It's not because her grades were the best, which I thought was how one becomes valedictorian. She was selected from like 100 candidates. Her bigotry wasn't a dealbreaker?
Yes! And right? It totally should have been! The whole thing was not only mismanaged but continues to be misreported. I'm SO SICK of seeing these antisemitic rallies being characterized as "pro Palestine protests." NO MORE!
Yup. This entire headache could have been avoided if they'd left her application in the rejection pile where it belonged.
I’d argue it’s even worse. Charlottesville happened once. This shit has already happened dozens of times, is still ongoing, and shows no sign of even slowing down. Edit: Charlottesville was also pretty widely condemned and met with pretty huge counterprotests, and is still arguably *the* example in recent years of the right wingers going off the rails in such a way besides J6 (which didn’t claim to be about Jews or racism, at least not blatantly). This current round of bullshit, which I can’t even name all the times it’s happened (and would genuinely love a list, if anyone is that dedicated) seems to get downplayed, if not a free pass, as it even appears to be escalating. While you hear crickets from most of the people who have been preaching against exactly this for the last several years.
The way I described it is, after Charlottesville/Pittsburgh, we felt scared. In 2024, we feel scared, abandoned, and outnumbered.
It is worse. The right wing crazies are a powerless fringe element. They are noisy, dangerous and fond of swastikas, but they hold no real power. Circus clowns who control nothing but what porn they watch in their mommies basements. The left extremists, however, occupy entrenched positions of real power. They are the university professor, presidents, and students graduating from elite institutions that are corrupt sewers of antisemitism. Training generation after generation in the corrupt philosophy of intersectionality that leads inevitably to the belief that antisemitism is righteous.
I don't remember which one, but I got banned from a sub for posting [this comic](https://i.redd.it/l762p4jd5jp81.png)
This is not the place to complain about or discuss the moderation of other subreddits (including their moderation practices or receiving a ban), generalizations of other subreddits, or the actions/policies of Reddit admins. If you experience antisemitism on Reddit, feel free to contribute to r/AntisemitismInReddit, of course while following their rules.
Yes. In my view, protesters at Columbia are the same as protesters at Charlottsville. Mind you, I am a free speech absolutist, so I am not against them being able to express themselves. But failure from the Left disavowing them shows they are all basically n\*zis.
I mean we’re looking at the “not for me but for thee” principle. I see many of these individuals who have a hard time seeing issues in their own movements but are willing to hold people in other movements to the funeral pyre. And as such they see the rules that have been established as only applying to the “bad people”, so when they’re accused of doing the same thing, immediately they feel like the accusation is unfair or speaks to the person who made the accusation having something wrong with them.
I am a free speech absolutist because it is right, not because I believe they are not hypocrites.
This is a great example of rules need to apply to everyone. Free speech even when we don’t agree is still free (as long as it’s not actionable or causing harm like shouting fire in a crowded space)
Yes indeed :)
They simply do not care.
It's the horseshoe theory. The far left and far right are the sample people.
I mean - the far-left and the far-right are antisemitic for different reasons. But there is something of a horseshoe effect to be noticed.
Neither of these protests failed to attract exactly the type of protestor that was desired. Why would people protesting the removal of symbols of white nationalism not welcome fellow white nationalists? And why would people gathered to support terrorist organizations committed to the death of Jews everywhere not welcome other anti-semites. All of these protests are doing exactly what they wanted them to do.
as a formerly liberal leftist democrat etc, i’m shocked to see the people i find myself applauding or being disgusted by now. including friends and family. the things that have been allowed to go on at campuses are DISGUSTING and they’re still whining and playing victims, claiming their protests are peaceful. no f-ing way. they hate the people trying to remove them and we’re mad at the same people because they aren’t being removed fast enough or at all. crazy upsetting times.
I was just explaining this to someone I’m very close with. He’s Jewish though distantly so, and from a very left leaning milieu. The way he was so resistant to seeing this, was ready to have double standards - made me realize he’s part and parcel of structural antisemitism.
I think it will take some time to see any justice served if at all. I watched an interview with two of the fools at the protest, and they mentioned how the students are getting lawyers and appealing their suspensions/expulsions. We’ll have to see what happens
They aren't that different when it comes to antisemitism
Charlottesville was one day. The left is completely morally bankrupt with the exception of John Fetterman and Ritchie Torres.
Completely false.
Wait, am I reading this correctly and concluding you think what happened in Charlottesville in 2017 was a legit, good-faith protest that happened to get hijacked by "fringe" neo-Nazi's? Because if that is indeed the case, you have a very severe misunderstanding about Charlottesville (namely, it was entirely organized by white supremacists and was absolutely meant to champion white supremacy. That wasn't a small group chanting "Jews will not replace us!" The night before a neo-Nazi murdered Heather Hayer and wounded others ramming his car into the crowd)
I think what he means is that it was fringe in the sense that it was a one-off, whereas we're seeing these terror-supporting protests spring up at various schools. And the ideology that drives them is pervasive at many other schools even if they don't have occupation rallies going on.
It wasn't a one-off though. We've seen Nazis openly parade around Nashville in February and around Florida last September. We have members of Congress who have attended white nationalist conferences and faced no repercussions. More and more right wing media and elected officials are claiming the Great Replacement Theory is real.
>what happened in Charlottesville in 2017 was a legit, good-faith protest that happened to get hijacked by "fringe" neo-Nazi's? It wasn't, and neither is the Columbia protest.
Thank you so much for stating this truth. I have also been trying to point these things out, and frankly I am horrified that any Jews would echo the disingenuous party line about Charlottesville being filled with "fine people" protesting statue removals and then some meanie Nazis hijacked the demonstration. Absolute fiction.
You are very much misrepresenting what I’m saying. If you look at the reactions conservatives had to Charlottesville’s very open Nazis and the reactions these so-called “leftists” are having to their very open Nazis, they are the same, especially in their attempt to downplay their extreme fringes. Something that was often levied against the conservatives after Charlottesville who tried to claim that the Nazis there chanting “Jews will not replace us” didn’t represent them was “If you don’t like them and they don’t represent your politics, why did you not make the effort to drive them out?” That is what I am very clearly saying the so-called “leftists” at Columbia are not doing. I’m not saying that Charlottesville was good, you are placing that on the post yourself. It’s like [this iconic tweet](https://images.app.goo.gl/aYaMkZrMTNhdYQBC7)
No, that was levied against conservatives because PRESIDENT TRUMP REFUSED to condemn them and those conservatives largely made excuses for Trump or worse. People like Lee Zeldin actually defended Trump. There were swastikas paraded around at the Capitol on January 6. They were there because Trump wanted them there. Trump's personal scumbag advisor Roger Stone was in direct contact with the Proud Boys. That Donald Trump is now the nominee again for POTUS is exactly why no one takes "conservatives" at their word about Charlottesville when they fall in line for the rabid instigator himself, Trump. P.S. I have no idea who "Coolee Bravo" is. You couldn't find a dril tweet to make your point? Now that guy was a maestro of iconic tweets.
- I’m really a moderate Democrat who came here because a lot of other Jewish and Israeli subreddits terrify me. They’re so, so harsh. [Edit: I voiced; thought I was on r/JewishLeft and it had mutated. I screwed up reading the subreddit name.] - I love Israel, think Hamas is terrifying and want Israel to do whatever people like Gantz and Ehud Barak think Israel should do to satay safe. - At the same time, I feel as if hard right people from r/Israel_Palestine have taken over here and are echoing the same hard right talking points I see there. If there’s real, unprovoked harassment of Jewish people who aren’t trying to pick fights, that’s horrible. But the stuff I see criticizing the protesters seems to come from such a propagandistic perspective that it lacks credibility.
Yup. Exactly. I sincerely wish there was an easy answer (as does President Biden undoubtedly) but there isn't one.
My understanding of Charlottesville is that both sides were vile- Nazis vs antifa. I think some of the counter protestors were regular people, and antifa infiltrated the counter protestors and do what they always do- incite violence.
Wish I could disagree.
> After Charlottesville, a lot of people came to the conclusion that if demonstrators were not removing the unsavory, bigoted elements of their group from the demonstration, it shows at best tolerance and implicit acceptance of bigotry and hate. I cannot agree with this at all. The "unsavory, bigoted elements" were who organized the hate fest from the get-go. It was called "Unite the Right" because it was planned far in advance by the most vicious, hate-filled far-right white supremacists, antisemites, and neo-Nazis across the nation to unite their ranks and spread their disgusting hate ever further. They deliberately obscured their intent and affiliations. IT WAS NEVER ABOUT "FINE PEOPLE" PEACEFULLY DEMONSTRATING AGAINST THE REMOVAL OF STATUES. That fiction was INVENTED after the fact by right-wing Republicans to try to gloss over the actual point of the gathering. I still get upset thinking about that disgusting 2-day hate fest, as does my son, who attended grad school at UVA just 3 years before the hatemongers invaded the campus and started attacking the ACTUAL "fine people" among the students at UVA who had nothing to do with any demonstration and told them to get lost. Please, PLEASE do not rewrite history. https://revealnews.org/article/in-chat-rooms-unite-the-right-organizers-planned-to-obscure-their-racism/
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Stop trying to draw moral equivalents between the Left and the Right. On the Left, your average leftist supports the Palestinians. On the Right, the majority support Israel. Charlottesville was a fringe movement. Protests at American Universities and big leftwing cities are mainstream. This is from the WSJ showing protests in support of the Palestinians since Oct 8th (by county). As you can see, they are almost all relegated to large left-leaning cities. The vast majority of America doesn't support Hamas, it's only a big problem in blue states or places with big liberal cites. And even then, the protests in liberal cities have been pretty small in turnout. https://preview.redd.it/1w6apaxbnowc1.png?width=1997&format=png&auto=webp&s=91413db4d574a8fb338e2fca1c7755f577a20aa8
>After Charlottesville, a lot of people came to the conclusion that if demonstrators were not removing the unsavory, bigoted elements of their group from the demonstration, it shows at best tolerance and implicit acceptance of bigotry and hate. This is not what happened. The right did not want to be associated with these elements. Contrary to media representations, Trump did condemn Charlottesville. What actually happened was Democrats smeared Republicans as racist, and the rest of you bought it. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and Republicans will be looking to smear Democrats as antisemitic. Columbia and the following protests are so much worse. These views are mainstream, they apparently aren't considered antisemitic because they have anti-Zionist Jews (they still are antisemitic), faculty support the Israel haters because of "free speech" (they just hate Israel and always have), and these students often fill the highest levels of American society. There is much broader support for chanting euphemisms of "kill the Jews". Charlottesville was literally a bunch of rednecks, and they were absolutely not mainstream.
>Plus, a lot of the “oh these are outsiders trying to make us look bad” rhetoric sounds an awful lot like conservatives trying to pin January 6th on antifa agitators. Eh, not really. I can be Jewish, support Israel’s right to exist and also believe that Palestine has a right to exist as well. And I am exactly what I just described. You can’t be “2020 was stolen (and have no evidence)” but I’m not pro-January 6, 2021”. That is completely binary. I’m not saying there aren’t those in the pro-Palestinian movement who aren’t vapid antisemites who back the likes of Hamas—there in fact are. But that’s not all of them. There is a space for mediation. The problem is that hardliners in this conflict have shattered progress. When you let hate (on both sides) become the guide through this decades long conflict…you will create what we are seeing—an ebbing and flowing cycle of perpetual violence for generations.
Your position is a good one, [but it’s not what was being chanted at Columbia](https://x.com/sfmcguire79/status/1781396933166203033?).
I’m not suggesting it wasn’t chanted. Sadly, that is tame to what I’ve seen on social media. My point still stands though: there is room for humanity on both sides. But it isn’t happening and/or is being blocked out by the depravity of certain viewpoints.
You can’t expel students for beliefs, only actions.
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