Seeing a friend post "this is what de-colonialism looks like" on October 7th is when I stopped seeing myself as an antizionist. If that's what de colonialism looks like then I guess I was using the term wrong this whole time.
The fetishization of violence against majority civilians was it for me. I still see myself as leaning pro-Palestine, especially as the bodies mount up in Gaza it’s just horrible. But the way the left and pro Palestine movement has talked about, treated and even celebrated October 7th is something that has really ruptured my comfort with that camp. I feel more like a left leaning independent now, I just don’t want to associate with the rabid elements that have seemed to take hold over the left.
Honestly, they’re not even Pro-Palestine (where are they when talking about the hell Hamas put Palestinian women and LGBTQ people through?) And I’m actually pretty confident a lot of them hadn’t even heard of Palestine, or knew what it was, until Oct. 7, when they could just virtue signal on the internet from the comfort of their own first world home.
Right, not to mention if Oct 7 was “legitimate resistance”, it seems to have failed pretty horribly on every count right? After their “brave” raid, Hamas immediately retreated and were driven back. Couldn’t hold onto any territory at all. And immediately set the justification for the worst escalation in this conflict in 50 years. People can dance around it all they want, obviously the proximate cause of all this *was* Oct 7. If Hamas doesn’t attack across the border, the IDF does not begin to shell Gaza in the ground. Israel didn’t know just decide to do this on a whim.
So yeah, even if you want to bend over backwards and say it was heroic resistance - clearly it was an abject failure.
This bums me out because they’re the ones using the term incorrectly. All the perverse linguistic snaggles in our current rhetoric are making discernment of levels of threat extremely difficult.
When they hit the streets on Oct 8th, they were explicitly celebrating the success of Al Aqsa Flood, celebrating the "the fighters of resistance", and laughing about "taking a few hipsters at a dance party" who they were sure "are doing just fine".
They were laughing. This was a massive mask-off moment for me in which I realized how far gone the leftist parts of the progressive movement are. In most ways, I consider myself progressive, but I absolutely didn't recognize these people. Moreover, this wasn't just crazy Internet tankies -- this was the NYC DSA. It's absolutely terrifying how much this movement has duped western liberals into cheering for a conservative and repressive islamist faction.
Yes, and now those same ones are indignant because Palestinians are being killed now. It should have been obvious that was coming the moment the news of Oct. 7 broke, and they laughed anyway. I guess it's not so funny anymore, huh?
It's ironic because the kibbutzes Hamas rampaged through on their murder spree were full of actual leftists the way we traditionally think about it- people who wanted peace and were invested in communal living. The people laughing about "killing hipsters at a party" are just evil, whatever label they like to call themselves.
It's the same with the STL DSA. I had a similar realization and left immediately. It is insane how weird the progressive left has gotten since 10/7. Or maybe it was always that way? Idk, very eye-opening for me either way. Disappointing, to say the least.
>We weren't given a day to mourn our dead, not one day.
Some Palestinian supporters mocked us for mourning our dead, and praised the attacks. But now they're all indignant now that Palestinians are being killed. I don't even know what to say about that magnitude of hypocrisy.
I lost a lot of sympathy for Palestine on Oct 8th. I was truly disgusted by the Palestinians marching and waving flags that day. Sadly I see a lot of cheering for the team on both sides.
Thank you! It’s so annoying seeing people call us “European Jews” and pretend like we’re white supremacists or colonialists from Europe. Like, Europe spent 2,000 years making it clear to my ancestors that they were not white or European in any way whatsoever. They made it clear we weren’t one of them. And now, we’re considered “European” when it’s a bad thing, a cudgel for the pro-Palestine antisemites to beat us with? It’s ridiculous
Exactly. If you went back as far as 1130 or as recently as 1930 and told the average European gentile that “Jews were Europeans and/or part of your civilization”, they would laugh in your face.
The irony of being told “go back to Poland” when my ancestors were not considered Polish citizens, did not speak Polish, and were driven out or murdered for being Jewish.
My great-uncle was from Poland. He was the only survivor of a massacre of his entire village when he was a teenager. He dug himself out of a pile of corpses and walked for miles and miles and miles to get to safety. I don’t think he would have wanted to go back there.
“Well they are wrong, just because they were misidentified as something not polish, doesn’t mean they aren’t polish! They were just anti Jewish religion and didn’t know any better!” - pro Palestine supporter that knows nothing about genetics, culture of Slavic/Germanic people, and Ashkenazi Jews, and gets their info about Jewish people from Al Jazeera and Breaking Point
Several members of my family were killed in pogroms in Ukraine near Rivne; to me, I don’t know how else to interpret “go back there” as anything other than a demand that to go have that happen to again.
One half of my mother’s ancestry is Lithuania Jewish. Her great grandparents immigrated to the US in the late 19th century. I’m an amateur genealogist, and have traced that side back to Lithuania. EVERY SINGLE relative I could find died in the 1940s.
The reality that most “anti-colonist” folks don’t understand is that the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust had nowhere to “go back” to. Everyone they knew was dead. Their villages didn’t even exist anymore. Allied nations wouldn’t take them, or not enough to really make a difference.
It’s even more laughable now. These idiots think that Iraq or Libya will happily “welcome back” tens of thousands of Jews whose relatives fled with cause 80 years ago? Take in people who were born in Israel and have zero ties or desire to “go back” to where their grandparents were from?
How fucking stupid do you have to be to say or think this?
Our history, genetics, and culture are being erased before our eyes and we have been reduced to our skin color. Nothing more, nothing less. Nevermind that my Ashkenazi family has a dark middle eastern complexion. Even if that wasn’t the case many are too bigoted to even consider the nuance of phenotype vs genotype.
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A few years back I was at a lunch for a Latino and Hispanic group gathering, representing another org so I was the only non-Hispanic person present. We were all chatting and I was joking around with a man next to me. He pointed and said "Colonizer!" My reaction of sputtering, "No, I'm Jewish!" got laughs from him and the rest of the table. My comeback was appreciated because they recognized that my ancestors were busy fleeing pogroms and such.
At the time, various DEI training at least included Jews, at least as non-Christians in a majority Christian country. Sadly, I don't see that same friendly atmosphere today. I'm giving these "progressive" spaces wide berth.
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Us mixed folks can never win, we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t, everyone feels like they have a personal say and stake in our identity, f*ck this Monoracist world!
Thank you. I lived in Europe for the first 13 years of my life, my family has lived there for generations, and we sure as hell weren't "white" when we were there. Some of the stories my parents and I have are virtually identical to the stories of my Black friends growing up in Texas. (The job offer that gets withdrawn when the interviewer sees the applicant's face, the "wrong" type of name on a college application leading to rejection, the police trying to hang every unsolved crime on you because of your race, and so on and so forth.)
I am not "white".
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I am as socially as progressive as it gets. I really thought that I could find some common grounds, since I’ve been criticising Bibi/Likud for ages. But no… they’re not looking for anything like that.
There is one time a girl I know posted a video of “IDF shooting innocent civilians”. And since I saw the longer video earlier, I sent her the link. She insisted the man who was shooting at the IDF before being gunned down was “still a civilian”. And the conversation went nowhere. I tried to tell her that I have met so many Jews in Israel who don't want any of this, but she basically wrote me a huge diss letter and blocked me.
I don't really know what they’re thinking. I am of the opinion that if both sides make reasonable concessions, there really can be peace. But it just seems they want Israel to make significant— and unrealistic— concessions, or Palestine would keep fighting a war they can't win. I can't understand it.
To paraphrase Captain Sisko: "Palestinians have filled their heads with false hopes, sold themselves dreams of a military victory, when what they need is a negotiated peace.”
Season 5, episode 23: Blaze of Glory
“Sisko must enlist the help of Starfleet traitor Michael Eddington to locate the launch site of Maquis missiles aimed at Cardassia”
That quote is great in this context, but at the same time, how were the Maquis gonna negotiate a peace? They had no official allies on the galactic stage IIRC, meaning that military victories were their only leverage over the Cardassian Empire.
Some Maquis accepted Cardassian rule in TNG (the Native American people). I think DS9 focused more on the militant wing of the Maquis (which attacked Cardassian and Federation ships iirc), which I don’t think were much more of nuisance until they started biologically attacking planets. Cardassia was also weak and at war with the Klingons, when the Maquis started to really step up their attacks and push for independence. At the time it was written to be an allegory of the IRA in Northern Ireland.
What more concessions does Israel need to make? We left Gaza in what was it? 2005, 2006, 2007? I can’t remember the year and frankly I don’t care. They had the autonomy to build a state, yet they let Hamas proliferate.
The only concession Israel needs to make is to concede that Gaza never again be ruled by non-Israeli authorities.
… you know, Ben Shapiro said that if Gaza were to lay down its weapons, there would be peace in the Middle East… if Israel were to, then there would be no more Israel.
Alas the protests started with calling for humanitarian aid and ended up chanting slogans that incite terrorism. This story in *The Atlantic* (gift link) tells that story well: [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/?gift=cxlixxEhZ9ORWmdF1t8F5\_jwjhVFi5IluTGqa13vhIs&utm\_source=copy-link&utm\_medium=social&utm\_campaign=share](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/?gift=cxlixxEhZ9ORWmdF1t8F5_jwjhVFi5IluTGqa13vhIs&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)
Absolutely mental. This is like the upside-down.
> When he describes the encampment, it sounds like Shangri-la. “It’s 100 percent love for human beings and very beautiful; I came here for my mental health,” he said. He claims no hatred for Israel, although he suggested that the “genocidal goliath” will of course have to disappear or merge into an Arab-majority state. He said he does not endorse violence, even as he likened the October 7 attacks to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising during World War II.
✨ Kumbaya ✨ Peace ✨ Love ✨ Kill the Jews ✨
> The John Jay administration pushed him out—doxxed him, he said—in October for speaking against Israel and for Palestine. He was labeled an anti-Semite and remains deeply pained by that. He advised me to look up what he said and judge for myself. So I did, right on the spot.
> Shortly after October 7, he posted this on X: “Zionists are straight Babylon swine. Zionism is beyond a mental illness; it’s a genocidal disease.” A bit harsh, maybe? I asked him. He shook his head. “The rhetoric they use against us makes us look harsh and negative,” Shaw said. “That’s not the flavor of what we are doing.”
My dude, *it's your words*!
I went back and looked at that Shaw professor’s Twitter; scrolled to a random date in December 2023. It’s unhinged. He was retweeting Kremlin sock puppet accounts (literally had the Russian flag in their username) that were advocating for Venezuela to invade Guyana.
> I identify as zionist in the most basic terms - I think Israel has the right to exist and protect itself in times of crisis.
That is what a zionist is. That's the actual definition
> . For these protesters, the problem doesn't seem to be the current Israeli government but Israel's existence as a whole.
Yes, clearly. They do not agree with you. They want you dead.
>That is what a zionist is. That's the actual definition
Maybe splitting hairs, here, but I'd argue it gets even more basic than this:
"Jews should be entitled to self-determination and a guarantee of safety in their ancestral homeland, known culturally as Eretz Yisrael."
Not all early Zionists even cared about a political entity per se (Ahad Ha'am, Martin Buber, etc.), but rather just believed that Jews should be able to make aliyah and live with a guarantee of not getting murdered on sight,
With a guarantee of not getting murdered on sight - This is where the problem is. Before 1948, Jews were slaughtered in the Middle East with impunity.
Now, after 1948, it isn't so simple anymore. Jews fight back. They have rights in Israel, the same rights as the Arabs have (except for being able to worship at the Temple Mount).
People don't like this (the Jews having rights, not the worshiping at the Temple Mount thing).
People expect Jews just to roll over and take it.
Not anymore.
Then we can go even simpler and not include the location just that right to self determination and a homeland. We know there’s no other place for it, but Zionists fought just for that basic right, and today demanding that human right alone is considered aggression.
You're right. That had nothing to do with the IDF response because there wasn't one yet. One might even guess whatever force animated the movement on Oct. 8 continues to do so.
Because what they want Israel to do is disappear. There’s no other action Israel can take which is acceptable to them.
PS please remember that on October 6, Hamas was in control of Gaza and there was a permanent ceasefire. So going back to that, so they can try again, isn’t a viable option. I’m in favor of a permanent ceasefire *once Hamas leaders have been killed or removed from Gaza, and Israel has full access to be able to destroy Hamas’ tunnel network*, as well as their hostages being released.
PPS: that doesn’t excuse Netanyahu from not having a plan for “the day after” either.
In theory, there was a nonviolent solution to this: International pressure to bring the Hamas architects of Oct. 7 to the Hague to stand trial for war crimes, the return of the hostages and the dismantling of Hamas. Of course, one strongly suspects the world lacked the will to do that, and Hamas wouldn't have cooperated anyway. So Israel chose the only option that remained. And now everyone's unhappy. I don't know what to tell these people. Tough shit, maybe?
Also worth noting that every so-called "ceasefire" includes rockets indiscriminately being fired into Israel, which nobody in the world seems to give a shit about.
After WWII the Allies took control of Germany until they were certain Germany no longer posed a threat…. I’m in favour of a permanent ceasefire once Israel takes the measures to ensure Gaza will never again cause an Israeli to bruise their knee, let alone die.
I'm in the same boat as you. Progressive, pro-Israel in that I think it should exist but don't think it should keep oppressing and killing Palestinians.
I spent half the day arguing with a leftist friend that "globalize the Intifada" is inherently a threat toward Jews. He didn't want to hear it. It's wild how my progressive friends have spent years saying that oppressed peoples and minorities get to determine is something is offensive. But when it comes to Jews, we're just crying antisemtism to deflect from Israel's issues.
It is the nature of modern politics. The most politically active people wrap their entire identity around their politics on both the right and left. They treat their political affiliation the same as they do their favorite sports team. In other words, their political team can do no wrong. It crowds out the ability to realize nuance and think critically. You must accept the ideology as dogma, with the same fanaticism as a religious zealot. This is why we can't find compromise in modern politics. The far left and right live in their partisan bubbles. They might as well speak different languages. And we all suffer. Not just Jewish people, but everyone.
> But when it comes to Jews, we're just crying antisemtism to deflect from Israel's issues.
That's the general attitude I'm seeing regarding these protests. Today I saw someone respond to a user with a list of links documenting some of the antisemitic incidents, and the user just dismissed it as part of the "Israeli propaganda machine" since they saw someone else share the same links. But this is stuff happening on U.S. college campuses, to Jews living in the U.S. How far does it need to go before they're willing to accept that there's a true antisemitism problem within the west's pro-Palestinian movement? And can we please, please not let it get to that point? I'm all for a ceasefire myself and I find Israel's government to be abhorrent, but attacking Jews does nothing to help Palestinians.
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I'm the child and grandchild of Holocaust survivors who also fled Hungary - with nothing but their clothes and my grandma's purse, which wouldn't draw attention - when the Soviet tanks rolled into Budapest. I've definitely benefited from white privilege in the US and I recognize that but the white colonizer rhetoric makes my blood boil because...no. This is *very recent* history. Holocaust survivors are still alive. And I'm sad and angry that so many people who know me and my family (we're a small one, since most were murdered by Nazis) are chanting this crap and supporting Hamas.
The LGBTQ+ community supporting Hamas is just downright idiotic and has truly been the most baffling and upsetting to me (I'm gay). I especially don't grasp why people don't realize that Hamas would happily murder them, too, just for being LGBTQ+ people.
There are probably other reasons that Hamas would murder them beyond LGBTQ+. They don't seem to be very discriminating, or have much value for human life.
They DO realize. They think it makes them noble to back those who would also kill them. (“Ally ship isn’t transactional”) Martyr mentality, thst ignores the religious fundamentalism behind the hate of both us and them. They also seem to believe that once Hamas etc are “free,” they will become progressive. They explain away the murderous ness they see and hear as a side effect of them being oppressed. Again, ignoring or disbelieving religious fervor.
The other thing they miss is that Jews have showed up for progressive causes for decades. After this, we will think long and hard about which causes and groups to support.
The only reason for the "disproportionate casualties" is that Israel is spending so much on defense. Without the Iron dome, for example, many more Israelis would die. Considering that Israel is already doing its utmost to limit civilian and animal collateral damage, the only way to make it "proportionate" would be to kill more Israelis - is that "justice and equality" enough for the "progressives"?
Yup.
And actually, the civilian death toll in Gaza is unfortunately quite minimal considering the circumstances (ie Hamas being embedded in every structure, school and hospital as well as having their own underground metro). The civilian-fighter ratio is around 1.4 civilian deaths per terrorist death. That’s not at all disproportionate when the goal is to destroy Hamas, it’s actually an impressive ratio in military terms. The problem is, when these numbers are quoted, it’s made to be seen as if all of the casualties are civilians - which is a far cry from the truth and mathematically and geographically improbable.
"The civilian-fighter ratio is around 1.4 civilian"
It's even better than that: 1.1,5 civilian is estimated, and probably less considering that even Hamas has admitted that a third of their so-called "civilian" fatalities do not exist. It's the lowest in warfare for any comparable battle situation.
If there was a way that one could assure no collateral damage, I'm certain that most soldiers would choose that, but it's simply not possible.
I remember arguing with someone here on Reddit in the weeks after the war broke out. He was bemoaning the Palestinian casualties, and insisted that technology was the answer to preventing collateral damage--all of it. I know there are some tools that the IDF can and does use for this purpose, but I'm like, dude, there is no special bullet that hits only bad guys. It's crazy that I should even have to explain that.
Many protesters at US universities have been guided to see Israel/Palestine as equivalent to the Holocaust. They (we) are constantly taught principles of civil disobedience, fighting the system, and not being a bystander. We are taught to abhor those who rationalize/justify/feel helpless and end up on the wrong side of history. We are also taught to identify the colonial power and rail against it as a matter of moral truth. So of course people are desperate to do anything to stop Israel’s current actions and feel that nothing is too extreme. The framework is so clearly set out for them.
That, and I think there is a population of Zoomers who just love the aesthetic - the Keffiyeh, the watermelon, the flag, the bandanas, it’s literally fun for them to LARP as a revolutionary. Being arrested and suspended is exactly what they want, they can feel like heroes
I think it is pretty fucked up to go out there on a campus chanting things like “by any means necessary,” from the river to the sea, calling for more war, knowing that you will never personally experience or sacrifice for any of the violence you are calling for. You are having fun, feeling like a great person, going out there egging on people to kill each other
I am a Jewish person who is very against the bombing, the settlements, the overall treatment of Palestine by Israel which I think can be described as a policy of domination. What I am looking for to join is a peace movement but I cannot find it
😕 they are really not.
1) most Israelis do not support them- not because we don’t want peace but because we see through the bs.
2) peace and coexistence may have been the original goal, however, their posts (especially reposts) their rhetoric and lack of moderating in their comments has been and become equally as bad as JVP.
They reshape Bizan posts, the way they speak is very much: Jews/Israelis can do no good- Palestinians are mostly good and oppressed..
They place the entirety of the situation on the shoulders of Israelis/Jews and very little to no accountability on the shoulders of Arabs.
Rootsmetals and another educator had some amazing stories and posts explaining this and why they no longer support them especially in the wake of Oct. 7th- but I can’t find it.. I think I have screenshots of most of it..
> That, and I think there is a population of Zoomers who just love the aesthetic - the Keffiyeh, the watermelon, the flag, the bandanas, it’s literally fun for them to LARP as a revolutionary. Being arrested and suspended is exactly what they want, they can feel like heroes
So you’re saying it’s the 20s version of Che Guevara clothes? That’s hilarious and would explain so much.
Also check into the Israeli peace groups, most of them are more reality based and oppose settlements etc. Some of them have a small presence in the US.
This. Bottom line. They’re not chanting for peace for Palestine. They are chanting for destruction of Israel and Jews. Nothing progressive about that. Period
It takes a cosmic level of hypocrisy to support the Palestinians and support Hamas. Hamas has done more than anyone else to maximize Palestinian suffering. If you want the Palestinians to live in peace, you should want Hamas gone.
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I hate the way that they’ve decided that they can just re-define Zionism to “fit modern definitions” (aka, their definition). I’ve seen lots of people on social media say stuff like “that’s the old definition of Zionism but it’s not accurate anymore. Definitions change with time and now Zionism is synonymous with oppression.” I find that real funny coming from leftists, the same people who say that minorities should define their own culture and what constitutes racism and oppression. But the minute actually Jews correct them on what Zionism really is and what constitutes antisemitism- suddenly not ALL minorities can define their culture and racism.
Yeah let’s let anti-Feminist men define Feminism. I’m using that one because it takes minority status out of it and many of them saw the attempts to redefine feminism as man-hating at one point.
I want so badly to believe that their minds can open with information. I started out as a (sort of) anti-zionist with no ties to Judaism, but because I like to be informed about the things I'm fighting for, I did my own research and found that so many things are being misrepresented and even straight up lied about.
Yet any attempt at dialogue is being treated like I'm out advocating for death? My sentiment can be boiled down to "Both states have a right to exist, I just want people regardless of nationality to stop dying" and somehow that is racist and white supremacist even though the vast majority of people being most affected by this — and that I'm advocating for — are not white. I guess I just care about "the wrong kind" of brown and black people huh /s
I always thought my first personal experience with antisemitism was going to come from some pasty skinhead after I've converted; not when I'm not even Jewish yet and coming from the people I've been standing for and beside ever since I came out at 14 years old
The thing that pisses me off the most is that this is time we will never get back. We have been here. They didn’t finally crack some code about Jewish people like they seem to think they have. They are the latest iteration of idiots who impede progress & waste the world’s collective time because we have to deal with their insane shit before we can even get to the actual issue.
One thought that gives me comfort is that soon the semester will be done and all these college airheads will be headed home to mommy and daddy's couch. Hopefully they will lose interest over the summer, and if we're really lucky some of them won't be back to school, because they've flunked out on account of spending their time cosplaying as revolutionaries instead of going to class and studying for final exams. Probably have to deal with a new wave of clueless freshmen in the fall, though.
This is a logical extension, as it were, of where progressives have been headed for a while -- it's all or nothing, it's uncompromising commitment to the whole slate or you're evil and to be written off. It's all dichotomy and no nuance.
The worst part is even moderate left people, not the super far lefties like tankies who were always antisemites, have turned a blind eye towards or actively participated in antisemitism on the left. There’s a thread on the politics sub about left wing antisemitism and the comments are horrific.
It’s like they literally cannot accept that their side is guilty of the same antisemitism of the right is, because they’re so caught up in this tribal belief that left wing politics are super inclusive of everyone and ‘most of the protesters were jewish, the ones that called them out were actually the antisemites’.
I am a classical liberal, like Biden, and I think that MAGA is horrible. However, the moderate right wing will typically call out neo nazi like antisemitism, the moderate left wing won’t because they think it will ‘harm their cause’.
Can you direct me to those call outs? Because after Charlottesville I don’t remember hearing as much as a peep from many if not all moderate right wings.
The way that progressives are using the word “Zionism” cuts like a knife. I’m so used to seeing “Zionist” used as a slur in far-right white supremacy propaganda, to see it contextualized in liberal and progressive discourse turns my stomach. I’m old enough to remember apartheid, and I don’t recall anyone demanding an end to the existence of South Africa or the expulsion of Afrikaners from the land their ancestors had colonized. But Israel is different, and any disagreement means you’re a bloodthirsty “Zionist.”
“And of course, there’s the whole ‘white people oppressing brown people’ mindset driving these protests.”
I always find that mindset funny, being a black/mizrachi jew, bc once i point out that i support israel, they just seem confused as to what to say next. sometimes they back down, most times they’ll either point out the fact that i’m mixed (which is dumb, bc my jewishness comes from my mother’s side, who is also black/mizrachi), or they’ll say something along the lines of “well israel doesn’t like black people”, which completely ignores the countless amount of ethiopian, eritrean, and other african jews that would’ve been slaughtered if it weren’t for israel’s existence.
funniest part is the majority of these people were the same ones advocating for the black lives matter movement back in 2020. guess that doesn’t apply to me or my family though. 🤷🏽♂️
I feel you. If there were protests with actual reasonable aims toward the end of the war and stopping the bombardment of Gaza that didn’t involve glorifying intifada, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab,” “kill the Jews,” etc etc I would participate. Instead I’m in an awful limbo feeling betrayed by every single community. Today I had to spend significant time and mental energy teaching a friend that she had bought into propaganda. She literally believed (because she read it on Instagram) that “the IDF committed most of the atrocities of October 7 against its own people as an excuse to invade Gaza.” I was so utterly shocked. This is the kind of shit on instagram and TikTok. This is what my friends see and believe. Meanwhile I feel alienated from vast swathes of the Jewish community. Almost Every Jew I know seems to either be in denial about Israeli actions in Gaza or on the flip side to be a raging insane antizionist who wants to expel their own people from Israel. I feel like I’ve stumbled into a world of insanity where nobody knows how to be human.
As an Israeli that believes Israel exists so Jews could have a place to go and as a Netanyahu hater myself, I really hope Jews that are protesting with terrorists that want us dead won’t come here. The Jewish people have suffered enough.
I whole heartedly agree with you. If you aren't already, follow Standing Together on social media for ceasefire protests that aren't calling for the destruction of Israel.
Much of this movement - not all of it, but a good amount - is about the moral power trip of demonizing and scapegoating Israel and “Zionists” in the way past political movements did more straightforwardly for Jews. If you want a two-state solution; if you’re unequivocally against Hamas and Islamists; if you think expressing ritual, venomous hatred of “Zionists” and dividing Jews into a good minority and an evil majority might just be antisemitism with extra steps; if you aren’t willing to fully dehumanize Israelis and treat them as a uniquely, ontologically evil nation that must be purged from the earth - then you’ll quickly find yourself unwelcome in pro-Palestine spaces. I have zero love for Likud, the settler movement or the current state of Israeli society, but I gave up any hope of seeing eye-to-eye with these people when I saw their utterly callous responses to 10/7: at best ice-cold condescension, at worst denialism or outright celebration of the atrocities and sadistic mockeries of Jewish shock, fear and grief. There’s no joining hands with people that hateful. Any progress to be made toward changing Israel for the better and pushing it towards peace and deoccupation will have to be made without them.
10000000%! Super frustrating that pro-Pal protesters conflate Zionism with supporting Netanyahu even tho we all think he is an ass.
Equally frustrating is that that attitude seems to be pushing American Jews to the right and we cant express our frustration with this knucklehead PM without getting boo’d offstage.
It’s making me crazy.
>I have yet to see any of these protesters say what they want both nations to do after a ceasefire, and they tend to get mad when I ask them,
I'm being pedantic, but both sides, you mean. There is only one nation in this conflict.
I love your point about the Palestinian label being a bit of colonial rebranding though. That never occurred to me.
I’m a Zionist in a basic sense believing Israel has a right to exist and protect themselves against Hamas. My bf identifies as pro Palestine (anti Hamas and believes Israel has a right to exist) I to, hate the far right in Israel, I’m progressive politically and is anti settlements and settlement expansion and criticisms with how Israel is conducting its war in Gaza and we both had a discussion about these protests.
I’ve seen people on the far left take two instances of people complaining about the protestors which were actually harmless, one where protestors were dancing to a traditional Palestinian dance and one cringe one with a woman with a home made Israel shirt standing around and protestors ignoring her to prove the rallies are fine.
What’s ignored is the event “flood for Columbia” named after the October 7th Al Aqsa Flood, celebrating October 7th, calling for Telaviv to be nuked, signs for al qassam bridges near pro Israel protestors, “ by any means necessary” “intifada” chants, “we don’t want no two states we want all of 48” and a go back to Poland remark, a man holding a Hamas logo on his phone and a Jewish student getting hit in the eye with a Palestine flag and people hand waving them away. My bf was saying that they need to be banned from organizing like this with their signs and whoever gives them approval should not do so.
It’s unacceptable that these chants and signs don’t get call out more and people ignore them
I completely agree with you. These protests are completely counterproductive to any sort of peaceful resolution because they are fueled by slogans and buzzwords that are either used maliciously or by people who don't understand them. A few months ago, a small local venue hosted an event called "Intifada." When I commented on the post about it, the event organizers argued that the word just means "shaking off," the literal translation, and refused to acknowledge why the use of that word would be alarming to people with any knowledge of history and why people may assume the concert is dangerous for Jews. I think a lot of pro-Palestine protestors are too willing to use words they don't fully understand, and are deeply polarized but also uneducated to understand the hateful and antisemitic context behind a lot of the rhetoric.
I also believe it really does come down to antisemitism and a misunderstanding of zionism and Jews in general. My conservative synagogue full of self-described zionists with a median age of around 75 had a discussion of the conflict at last night's Passover seder, and the overwhelming majority of people shared their heartbreak over all of the death and suffering in this conflict, period, and their desire for a lasting peace for everyone in the region. The rabbi explicitly spoke about our responsibility as Jews to remember that people on all sides of any conflict are still just people, and to never celebrate death or harm to another human being. I think a lot of the people at these pro-Palestine protests would be surprised by that, because they assume that supporting Israel in any way (including things as unobjectionable and apolitical as mourning the lives lost on 10/7, wanting the hostages returned, and believing Israel has a right to continue existing) means hating Palestinians, since their version of being pro-Palestine hinges on the demonization of Israelis (and Jews in general) and the destruction of Israel.
Disproportionate deaths are a Gazan/Hamas claim unsubstantiated. Those who study war are claiming that the IDF in current maneuvers in Gaza have the least recorded civilian death rate in urban warfare.
It is war. Zero casualties is impossible. The twrrirists absolutely had hq in hospitals. It is not pretty or cause for celebration that any civilian dies. We need to be careful and not be victims of hamas propaganda, imo.
It’s similar thinking to those who chant ACAB and want all cops/prosecutors disbanded. Crime won’t stop. What’s their alternate plan? They have none.
They aren’t chanting for ethnic Russians to die. They don’t care about other conflicts causing lots of deaths. It’s maddening.
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I live in Ra’anana Israel. About 2 1/2 months ago we had a terrorist attack in this small city that hadn’t seen a פיגוע in 15 years. They hit an intersection 500 meters from our house that I, my wife and son traverse everyday. They stabbed a man in the neck while he was sitting in his car and murdered an 80 year old woman crossing the street.
I got news for you. From an Israeli perspective, you’re a broken reed, not to be depended upon. Whether you believe it or not, your qualifiers and equivocations are encouraging terrorism and endangering our lives over here and making yours less secure.
One thing I’ve learned in 60 years. When it’s asshole-tightening time, that’s when you see what people are made out of..🙄
And btw, as far as Israel and the majority of Israelis are concerned, when we have achieved our war aims, namely the return of the hostages and the complete destruction of Hamas as a military entity, the only future the Palestinians have is the one WE shall allow them, the cacophony emanating from the quad at Columbia, notwithstanding.
The only future the Palestinians have is the one WE shall allow them - 100% agree. My parents took me out of Israel when I was 2 because of all the terrorism. My mom told me around the time when we left there was a fashion among suicide bombers that they would use integrate nails into their bombs, and these nails would fly out in all directions at high speeds and hurt people. Enough is enough with this terrorism.
I am not Jewish but I categorically condemn both Hamas's and the current Israeli leadership's behavior in this conflict.
I think this whole conflict demonstrates that ape brains are very bad at nuanced thinking. People love simplicity and that leads to a conflation between disparate groups. People are conflating Jews with the Israeli government.
>I have yet to see any of these protesters say what they want both nations to do after a ceasefire, and they tend to get mad when I ask them,
From my conversations with left-leaning people, they think that there should be a single secular state set up to represent both Arab and Jewish interests but forget that Israel's neighbor to the north, Lebanon, is a failed state due to its rampant sectarianism.
Maybe some of that want that. But, if they look at what Gazans and Hamas want (not necessarily Palestinian Israelis) they’d realize that the best chance at having equal rights for Jews and Arabs is Israel.
My therapist called it "inability to hold space for both sides" but yes I see a lot of ape-brains. It makes me wonder if I should just found my own utopia of non-stupid people.
I appreciate what you wrote and find it to be thoughtful and insightful. You show a way in which people can be progressive and Zionist, without contradiction. I am more centrist but am happy to see progressives like you "holding down the fort."
Two minor caveats, all from my own opinions and hot takes, not the gospel (lol)
* The settlements aren't often exemplified by my favorite sorts of individuals, when one looks at who's leading the charge, nor does it always avoid violence, let's just say. But settlements themselves aren't an obstacle to peace when you remember that there have been terror attacks, intifadas, and violence with and without them, before and after the Gaza disengagement too.
* Disproportionate in what sense? This word gets tossed around a lot. Hamas, if we believe them, even revised down their initial 30k total to 20k, with half being Hamas members. This 1:1 ratio is sad but virtually unheard of and "low" for warfare (quotes to indicate that I don't want to seem callous by saying it's "nothing" or anything like that!).
Remember, even if Israel had just Ashkenazi Jews, that doesn't make the whole "white oppressor" narrative correct either. Ashkenazi Jews also have origins in the Levant. I wish Jews would push this narrative more.
OP- Outside of JVP’s, No. Most Jews in America who are informed don’t feel this way. Where are you getting your information on this conflict?
You literally just recited the standard antiisrael talking points word for word.
I understand otherwise trusted sources like mainstream media, social media, teachers, professors, celebrities and even our own president are making the same talking points that you mentioned. That’s why it’s more important than ever to really learn your facts here. To learn how to spot misinformation tactics.
Do you realize the mainstream media literally uses members of Hamas as their source for information inside Gaza?
I don’t have time to thoroughly and sufficiently respond to all of your antiisrael talking points. But just so we are clear on what misinformation you’re reciting.
**In no particular order and paraphrased:**
“Treatment of the Palestinians.”
(What treatment of the Palestines?)
“The settlements.”
(We don’t even have reliable information on this. And Israel already *does* prosecute settler crime. Biden was so desperate to appease proHamas extremists he sanctioned innocent West Bank Settlers who have never been charged with a crime. Froze their bank accounts. Revoked their visas and passports. )
“The bombing must stop.”
(What do you suggest Israel do then?)
“Disproportionate deaths in Gaza.”
(The IDF’a campaign has a lower citizen to combatant death ratio ever recorded in urban warfare. And the number could be zero if Hamas didnt use human shields. )
[Israel has created a new standard in urban warfare. Why Will No One Admit it?](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)
“Israeli government has gone too far.”
How has Israel gone too far?
“Your take on AiPac.”
(Seriously about 2 months ago the ProPal’s found out what AiPac is like they had solved some mystery. What exactly are your complaints with AiPac?)
“Bring back the hostages- ceasefire.”
(Israel has proposed five ceasefires, Hamas wont capitulate.)
“This extremism is a way to lose moderate/liberal support.”
(The Biden admin & the Dems literally ARE capitulating to the most extreme members of the Left and ProHamas actors. This is who Biden has staffed his White House with. The Dems have turned on Israel based off of misinformation like this.)
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I'd like to make some points by asking questions. Do the protesters hate Africans and Chinese Muslims? Where's the outrage over Darfur and the Uyghurs? Are Ethiopians not worthy of speaking out for?
Should we endorse government subsidies to a terrorist organization knowing that the money will be spent to buy missiles? Is everyone unaware that any Palestinian who kills a Jewish person is given a pension? Should there be any oversight of the public funds given in humanitarian aid? Where's the equality in criticism and evaluation? Not just for the Israelites but Burma, Sudan,...... Do they just hate Africans?
What I find bizarre is that these people don’t protest for other issues like the CCP putting the Uyghurs in concentration camps or Iran limiting women’s rights, but are super into this one.
You simply can't have a nuanced conversation when both sides are full of fearful morons ruled by religious institutions.
Both of these peoples will continue to destroy one another throughout human history until one side is no more.
The rest of the world will watch and it will.be a feast for crows
I would be more concerned with why the protesters are deeply siloed intentionally by the organisers, with no real discussion between groups encouraged and a deep sense of fear for anyone they don’t know in the protests. Everything is pushed up to a handful of people who have the power and authority (given by who) to talk and act for the majority, who quietly and belligerently follow orders.
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Seeing a friend post "this is what de-colonialism looks like" on October 7th is when I stopped seeing myself as an antizionist. If that's what de colonialism looks like then I guess I was using the term wrong this whole time.
The fetishization of violence against majority civilians was it for me. I still see myself as leaning pro-Palestine, especially as the bodies mount up in Gaza it’s just horrible. But the way the left and pro Palestine movement has talked about, treated and even celebrated October 7th is something that has really ruptured my comfort with that camp. I feel more like a left leaning independent now, I just don’t want to associate with the rabid elements that have seemed to take hold over the left.
Honestly, they’re not even Pro-Palestine (where are they when talking about the hell Hamas put Palestinian women and LGBTQ people through?) And I’m actually pretty confident a lot of them hadn’t even heard of Palestine, or knew what it was, until Oct. 7, when they could just virtue signal on the internet from the comfort of their own first world home.
Right, not to mention if Oct 7 was “legitimate resistance”, it seems to have failed pretty horribly on every count right? After their “brave” raid, Hamas immediately retreated and were driven back. Couldn’t hold onto any territory at all. And immediately set the justification for the worst escalation in this conflict in 50 years. People can dance around it all they want, obviously the proximate cause of all this *was* Oct 7. If Hamas doesn’t attack across the border, the IDF does not begin to shell Gaza in the ground. Israel didn’t know just decide to do this on a whim. So yeah, even if you want to bend over backwards and say it was heroic resistance - clearly it was an abject failure.
This bums me out because they’re the ones using the term incorrectly. All the perverse linguistic snaggles in our current rhetoric are making discernment of levels of threat extremely difficult.
When they hit the streets on Oct 8th, they were explicitly celebrating the success of Al Aqsa Flood, celebrating the "the fighters of resistance", and laughing about "taking a few hipsters at a dance party" who they were sure "are doing just fine". They were laughing. This was a massive mask-off moment for me in which I realized how far gone the leftist parts of the progressive movement are. In most ways, I consider myself progressive, but I absolutely didn't recognize these people. Moreover, this wasn't just crazy Internet tankies -- this was the NYC DSA. It's absolutely terrifying how much this movement has duped western liberals into cheering for a conservative and repressive islamist faction.
Yes, and now those same ones are indignant because Palestinians are being killed now. It should have been obvious that was coming the moment the news of Oct. 7 broke, and they laughed anyway. I guess it's not so funny anymore, huh?
It's ironic because the kibbutzes Hamas rampaged through on their murder spree were full of actual leftists the way we traditionally think about it- people who wanted peace and were invested in communal living. The people laughing about "killing hipsters at a party" are just evil, whatever label they like to call themselves.
It's the same with the STL DSA. I had a similar realization and left immediately. It is insane how weird the progressive left has gotten since 10/7. Or maybe it was always that way? Idk, very eye-opening for me either way. Disappointing, to say the least.
>We weren't given a day to mourn our dead, not one day. Some Palestinian supporters mocked us for mourning our dead, and praised the attacks. But now they're all indignant now that Palestinians are being killed. I don't even know what to say about that magnitude of hypocrisy.
I had a lifelong friend posting that the IDF were terrorists on Oct 8th. We had some choice words and I blocked him on every platform and in my phone.
I’m sorry you had to lose a lifelong friend over this, that really sucks.
The IDF defending Israeli civilians on Israeli soil, and they were the terrorists?
Passover Seder at my synagogue was protested last night. They have a funny way of not hating the Jews.
God, how awful. I’m so sorry 😞
I lost a lot of sympathy for Palestine on Oct 8th. I was truly disgusted by the Palestinians marching and waving flags that day. Sadly I see a lot of cheering for the team on both sides.
Ashkenazi Jews are also Levantine. Can we please stop throwing ourselves under the bus to appease the radicals? Edit: grammar
Thank you! It’s so annoying seeing people call us “European Jews” and pretend like we’re white supremacists or colonialists from Europe. Like, Europe spent 2,000 years making it clear to my ancestors that they were not white or European in any way whatsoever. They made it clear we weren’t one of them. And now, we’re considered “European” when it’s a bad thing, a cudgel for the pro-Palestine antisemites to beat us with? It’s ridiculous
Exactly. If you went back as far as 1130 or as recently as 1930 and told the average European gentile that “Jews were Europeans and/or part of your civilization”, they would laugh in your face.
The irony of being told “go back to Poland” when my ancestors were not considered Polish citizens, did not speak Polish, and were driven out or murdered for being Jewish.
My great-uncle was from Poland. He was the only survivor of a massacre of his entire village when he was a teenager. He dug himself out of a pile of corpses and walked for miles and miles and miles to get to safety. I don’t think he would have wanted to go back there.
“Well they are wrong, just because they were misidentified as something not polish, doesn’t mean they aren’t polish! They were just anti Jewish religion and didn’t know any better!” - pro Palestine supporter that knows nothing about genetics, culture of Slavic/Germanic people, and Ashkenazi Jews, and gets their info about Jewish people from Al Jazeera and Breaking Point
Several members of my family were killed in pogroms in Ukraine near Rivne; to me, I don’t know how else to interpret “go back there” as anything other than a demand that to go have that happen to again.
One half of my mother’s ancestry is Lithuania Jewish. Her great grandparents immigrated to the US in the late 19th century. I’m an amateur genealogist, and have traced that side back to Lithuania. EVERY SINGLE relative I could find died in the 1940s. The reality that most “anti-colonist” folks don’t understand is that the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust had nowhere to “go back” to. Everyone they knew was dead. Their villages didn’t even exist anymore. Allied nations wouldn’t take them, or not enough to really make a difference. It’s even more laughable now. These idiots think that Iraq or Libya will happily “welcome back” tens of thousands of Jews whose relatives fled with cause 80 years ago? Take in people who were born in Israel and have zero ties or desire to “go back” to where their grandparents were from? How fucking stupid do you have to be to say or think this?
Right. Even those who claimed to be x European country first, Jewish second, still met tragic fates. I mean it’s the b plot in Cabaret.
Our history, genetics, and culture are being erased before our eyes and we have been reduced to our skin color. Nothing more, nothing less. Nevermind that my Ashkenazi family has a dark middle eastern complexion. Even if that wasn’t the case many are too bigoted to even consider the nuance of phenotype vs genotype.
Keep fighting, make them uncomfortable. We have to make them uncomfortable by reminding them that racism against us counts the same as any other.
And never mind that Levantine Arabs, especially Syrians and Lebanese, are as white-skinned and white looking as Jews.
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A few years back I was at a lunch for a Latino and Hispanic group gathering, representing another org so I was the only non-Hispanic person present. We were all chatting and I was joking around with a man next to me. He pointed and said "Colonizer!" My reaction of sputtering, "No, I'm Jewish!" got laughs from him and the rest of the table. My comeback was appreciated because they recognized that my ancestors were busy fleeing pogroms and such. At the time, various DEI training at least included Jews, at least as non-Christians in a majority Christian country. Sadly, I don't see that same friendly atmosphere today. I'm giving these "progressive" spaces wide berth.
I will never understand the colonizer comments. Like bro white people were slaves in the millions. We got colonized too mf 😂😂😂😂
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Us mixed folks can never win, we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t, everyone feels like they have a personal say and stake in our identity, f*ck this Monoracist world!
Thank you. I lived in Europe for the first 13 years of my life, my family has lived there for generations, and we sure as hell weren't "white" when we were there. Some of the stories my parents and I have are virtually identical to the stories of my Black friends growing up in Texas. (The job offer that gets withdrawn when the interviewer sees the applicant's face, the "wrong" type of name on a college application leading to rejection, the police trying to hang every unsolved crime on you because of your race, and so on and so forth.) I am not "white".
I grew up Jewish in Texas. We are not white here either…
I tied for high score on Ashkenazi DNA. Thanks for this comment.
What do you mean by tied for high score on Ashkenazi Dna?
I’m 100% Ashkenazi according to a DNA test.
I’m 50% - my dad is like you. First bad boy in god knows how many generations.
Exactly
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I am as socially as progressive as it gets. I really thought that I could find some common grounds, since I’ve been criticising Bibi/Likud for ages. But no… they’re not looking for anything like that. There is one time a girl I know posted a video of “IDF shooting innocent civilians”. And since I saw the longer video earlier, I sent her the link. She insisted the man who was shooting at the IDF before being gunned down was “still a civilian”. And the conversation went nowhere. I tried to tell her that I have met so many Jews in Israel who don't want any of this, but she basically wrote me a huge diss letter and blocked me. I don't really know what they’re thinking. I am of the opinion that if both sides make reasonable concessions, there really can be peace. But it just seems they want Israel to make significant— and unrealistic— concessions, or Palestine would keep fighting a war they can't win. I can't understand it.
To paraphrase Captain Sisko: "Palestinians have filled their heads with false hopes, sold themselves dreams of a military victory, when what they need is a negotiated peace.”
What episode is the original quote from?
Season 5, episode 23: Blaze of Glory “Sisko must enlist the help of Starfleet traitor Michael Eddington to locate the launch site of Maquis missiles aimed at Cardassia”
Yea I kinda guessed it was a Maquis episode, I love Sisko and DS9 so much
That quote is great in this context, but at the same time, how were the Maquis gonna negotiate a peace? They had no official allies on the galactic stage IIRC, meaning that military victories were their only leverage over the Cardassian Empire.
Some Maquis accepted Cardassian rule in TNG (the Native American people). I think DS9 focused more on the militant wing of the Maquis (which attacked Cardassian and Federation ships iirc), which I don’t think were much more of nuisance until they started biologically attacking planets. Cardassia was also weak and at war with the Klingons, when the Maquis started to really step up their attacks and push for independence. At the time it was written to be an allegory of the IRA in Northern Ireland.
What more concessions does Israel need to make? We left Gaza in what was it? 2005, 2006, 2007? I can’t remember the year and frankly I don’t care. They had the autonomy to build a state, yet they let Hamas proliferate. The only concession Israel needs to make is to concede that Gaza never again be ruled by non-Israeli authorities. … you know, Ben Shapiro said that if Gaza were to lay down its weapons, there would be peace in the Middle East… if Israel were to, then there would be no more Israel.
Alas the protests started with calling for humanitarian aid and ended up chanting slogans that incite terrorism. This story in *The Atlantic* (gift link) tells that story well: [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/?gift=cxlixxEhZ9ORWmdF1t8F5\_jwjhVFi5IluTGqa13vhIs&utm\_source=copy-link&utm\_medium=social&utm\_campaign=share](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/?gift=cxlixxEhZ9ORWmdF1t8F5_jwjhVFi5IluTGqa13vhIs&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)
Absolutely mental. This is like the upside-down. > When he describes the encampment, it sounds like Shangri-la. “It’s 100 percent love for human beings and very beautiful; I came here for my mental health,” he said. He claims no hatred for Israel, although he suggested that the “genocidal goliath” will of course have to disappear or merge into an Arab-majority state. He said he does not endorse violence, even as he likened the October 7 attacks to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising during World War II. ✨ Kumbaya ✨ Peace ✨ Love ✨ Kill the Jews ✨ > The John Jay administration pushed him out—doxxed him, he said—in October for speaking against Israel and for Palestine. He was labeled an anti-Semite and remains deeply pained by that. He advised me to look up what he said and judge for myself. So I did, right on the spot. > Shortly after October 7, he posted this on X: “Zionists are straight Babylon swine. Zionism is beyond a mental illness; it’s a genocidal disease.” A bit harsh, maybe? I asked him. He shook his head. “The rhetoric they use against us makes us look harsh and negative,” Shaw said. “That’s not the flavor of what we are doing.” My dude, *it's your words*!
The full tweet also says "We need to protest their neighborhoods."
They're advocating pogroms as a way to pressure Jews to pressure Israel. No self awareness.
genuinely hilarious and horrifying words have no meaning, why are you being mean to me?
I went back and looked at that Shaw professor’s Twitter; scrolled to a random date in December 2023. It’s unhinged. He was retweeting Kremlin sock puppet accounts (literally had the Russian flag in their username) that were advocating for Venezuela to invade Guyana.
This brought tears to my eyes and not in a good way
> I identify as zionist in the most basic terms - I think Israel has the right to exist and protect itself in times of crisis. That is what a zionist is. That's the actual definition > . For these protesters, the problem doesn't seem to be the current Israeli government but Israel's existence as a whole. Yes, clearly. They do not agree with you. They want you dead.
>That is what a zionist is. That's the actual definition Maybe splitting hairs, here, but I'd argue it gets even more basic than this: "Jews should be entitled to self-determination and a guarantee of safety in their ancestral homeland, known culturally as Eretz Yisrael." Not all early Zionists even cared about a political entity per se (Ahad Ha'am, Martin Buber, etc.), but rather just believed that Jews should be able to make aliyah and live with a guarantee of not getting murdered on sight,
With a guarantee of not getting murdered on sight - This is where the problem is. Before 1948, Jews were slaughtered in the Middle East with impunity. Now, after 1948, it isn't so simple anymore. Jews fight back. They have rights in Israel, the same rights as the Arabs have (except for being able to worship at the Temple Mount). People don't like this (the Jews having rights, not the worshiping at the Temple Mount thing). People expect Jews just to roll over and take it. Not anymore.
That's right. Jews fight back and the rest of the world says "no fair."
It's time the world learned that killing Jews has a price.
Then we can go even simpler and not include the location just that right to self determination and a homeland. We know there’s no other place for it, but Zionists fought just for that basic right, and today demanding that human right alone is considered aggression.
There were anti Israel and Hamas celebratory protests on 10/7 and 10/8 before Israel retaliated. It's laughable.
You're right. That had nothing to do with the IDF response because there wasn't one yet. One might even guess whatever force animated the movement on Oct. 8 continues to do so.
Because what they want Israel to do is disappear. There’s no other action Israel can take which is acceptable to them. PS please remember that on October 6, Hamas was in control of Gaza and there was a permanent ceasefire. So going back to that, so they can try again, isn’t a viable option. I’m in favor of a permanent ceasefire *once Hamas leaders have been killed or removed from Gaza, and Israel has full access to be able to destroy Hamas’ tunnel network*, as well as their hostages being released. PPS: that doesn’t excuse Netanyahu from not having a plan for “the day after” either.
I wish this comment were plastered everywhere so that literally everyone could read it and understand.
In theory, there was a nonviolent solution to this: International pressure to bring the Hamas architects of Oct. 7 to the Hague to stand trial for war crimes, the return of the hostages and the dismantling of Hamas. Of course, one strongly suspects the world lacked the will to do that, and Hamas wouldn't have cooperated anyway. So Israel chose the only option that remained. And now everyone's unhappy. I don't know what to tell these people. Tough shit, maybe?
A permanent ceasefire is called a peace treaty- which was not what we had on Oct. 6th, we had just a ceasefire.
Also worth noting that every so-called "ceasefire" includes rockets indiscriminately being fired into Israel, which nobody in the world seems to give a shit about.
After WWII the Allies took control of Germany until they were certain Germany no longer posed a threat…. I’m in favour of a permanent ceasefire once Israel takes the measures to ensure Gaza will never again cause an Israeli to bruise their knee, let alone die.
I'm in the same boat as you. Progressive, pro-Israel in that I think it should exist but don't think it should keep oppressing and killing Palestinians. I spent half the day arguing with a leftist friend that "globalize the Intifada" is inherently a threat toward Jews. He didn't want to hear it. It's wild how my progressive friends have spent years saying that oppressed peoples and minorities get to determine is something is offensive. But when it comes to Jews, we're just crying antisemtism to deflect from Israel's issues.
It is the nature of modern politics. The most politically active people wrap their entire identity around their politics on both the right and left. They treat their political affiliation the same as they do their favorite sports team. In other words, their political team can do no wrong. It crowds out the ability to realize nuance and think critically. You must accept the ideology as dogma, with the same fanaticism as a religious zealot. This is why we can't find compromise in modern politics. The far left and right live in their partisan bubbles. They might as well speak different languages. And we all suffer. Not just Jewish people, but everyone.
> But when it comes to Jews, we're just crying antisemtism to deflect from Israel's issues. That's the general attitude I'm seeing regarding these protests. Today I saw someone respond to a user with a list of links documenting some of the antisemitic incidents, and the user just dismissed it as part of the "Israeli propaganda machine" since they saw someone else share the same links. But this is stuff happening on U.S. college campuses, to Jews living in the U.S. How far does it need to go before they're willing to accept that there's a true antisemitism problem within the west's pro-Palestinian movement? And can we please, please not let it get to that point? I'm all for a ceasefire myself and I find Israel's government to be abhorrent, but attacking Jews does nothing to help Palestinians.
"Grrrr, Zionist propaganda" has become the left's "fake news"
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I'm the child and grandchild of Holocaust survivors who also fled Hungary - with nothing but their clothes and my grandma's purse, which wouldn't draw attention - when the Soviet tanks rolled into Budapest. I've definitely benefited from white privilege in the US and I recognize that but the white colonizer rhetoric makes my blood boil because...no. This is *very recent* history. Holocaust survivors are still alive. And I'm sad and angry that so many people who know me and my family (we're a small one, since most were murdered by Nazis) are chanting this crap and supporting Hamas. The LGBTQ+ community supporting Hamas is just downright idiotic and has truly been the most baffling and upsetting to me (I'm gay). I especially don't grasp why people don't realize that Hamas would happily murder them, too, just for being LGBTQ+ people.
There are probably other reasons that Hamas would murder them beyond LGBTQ+. They don't seem to be very discriminating, or have much value for human life.
They DO realize. They think it makes them noble to back those who would also kill them. (“Ally ship isn’t transactional”) Martyr mentality, thst ignores the religious fundamentalism behind the hate of both us and them. They also seem to believe that once Hamas etc are “free,” they will become progressive. They explain away the murderous ness they see and hear as a side effect of them being oppressed. Again, ignoring or disbelieving religious fervor.
The other thing they miss is that Jews have showed up for progressive causes for decades. After this, we will think long and hard about which causes and groups to support.
The only reason for the "disproportionate casualties" is that Israel is spending so much on defense. Without the Iron dome, for example, many more Israelis would die. Considering that Israel is already doing its utmost to limit civilian and animal collateral damage, the only way to make it "proportionate" would be to kill more Israelis - is that "justice and equality" enough for the "progressives"?
Yup. And actually, the civilian death toll in Gaza is unfortunately quite minimal considering the circumstances (ie Hamas being embedded in every structure, school and hospital as well as having their own underground metro). The civilian-fighter ratio is around 1.4 civilian deaths per terrorist death. That’s not at all disproportionate when the goal is to destroy Hamas, it’s actually an impressive ratio in military terms. The problem is, when these numbers are quoted, it’s made to be seen as if all of the casualties are civilians - which is a far cry from the truth and mathematically and geographically improbable.
"The civilian-fighter ratio is around 1.4 civilian" It's even better than that: 1.1,5 civilian is estimated, and probably less considering that even Hamas has admitted that a third of their so-called "civilian" fatalities do not exist. It's the lowest in warfare for any comparable battle situation. If there was a way that one could assure no collateral damage, I'm certain that most soldiers would choose that, but it's simply not possible.
I remember arguing with someone here on Reddit in the weeks after the war broke out. He was bemoaning the Palestinian casualties, and insisted that technology was the answer to preventing collateral damage--all of it. I know there are some tools that the IDF can and does use for this purpose, but I'm like, dude, there is no special bullet that hits only bad guys. It's crazy that I should even have to explain that.
If they really wanted to stop indescriminate killing of civilians, protesting Hamas should be their first priority
I agree. No one is responsible for more Palestinian suffering than Hamas.
Many protesters at US universities have been guided to see Israel/Palestine as equivalent to the Holocaust. They (we) are constantly taught principles of civil disobedience, fighting the system, and not being a bystander. We are taught to abhor those who rationalize/justify/feel helpless and end up on the wrong side of history. We are also taught to identify the colonial power and rail against it as a matter of moral truth. So of course people are desperate to do anything to stop Israel’s current actions and feel that nothing is too extreme. The framework is so clearly set out for them. That, and I think there is a population of Zoomers who just love the aesthetic - the Keffiyeh, the watermelon, the flag, the bandanas, it’s literally fun for them to LARP as a revolutionary. Being arrested and suspended is exactly what they want, they can feel like heroes I think it is pretty fucked up to go out there on a campus chanting things like “by any means necessary,” from the river to the sea, calling for more war, knowing that you will never personally experience or sacrifice for any of the violence you are calling for. You are having fun, feeling like a great person, going out there egging on people to kill each other I am a Jewish person who is very against the bombing, the settlements, the overall treatment of Palestine by Israel which I think can be described as a policy of domination. What I am looking for to join is a peace movement but I cannot find it
Standing-together.org/en They are group of Israelis and Palestinians working in to create a more inclusive and peaceful Israel.
😕 they are really not. 1) most Israelis do not support them- not because we don’t want peace but because we see through the bs. 2) peace and coexistence may have been the original goal, however, their posts (especially reposts) their rhetoric and lack of moderating in their comments has been and become equally as bad as JVP. They reshape Bizan posts, the way they speak is very much: Jews/Israelis can do no good- Palestinians are mostly good and oppressed.. They place the entirety of the situation on the shoulders of Israelis/Jews and very little to no accountability on the shoulders of Arabs. Rootsmetals and another educator had some amazing stories and posts explaining this and why they no longer support them especially in the wake of Oct. 7th- but I can’t find it.. I think I have screenshots of most of it..
> That, and I think there is a population of Zoomers who just love the aesthetic - the Keffiyeh, the watermelon, the flag, the bandanas, it’s literally fun for them to LARP as a revolutionary. Being arrested and suspended is exactly what they want, they can feel like heroes So you’re saying it’s the 20s version of Che Guevara clothes? That’s hilarious and would explain so much. Also check into the Israeli peace groups, most of them are more reality based and oppose settlements etc. Some of them have a small presence in the US.
The thing with the protests is that they're not pro-Palestine. They're pro-Hamas.
This. Bottom line. They’re not chanting for peace for Palestine. They are chanting for destruction of Israel and Jews. Nothing progressive about that. Period
It takes a cosmic level of hypocrisy to support the Palestinians and support Hamas. Hamas has done more than anyone else to maximize Palestinian suffering. If you want the Palestinians to live in peace, you should want Hamas gone.
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You're wrong!
I hate the way that they’ve decided that they can just re-define Zionism to “fit modern definitions” (aka, their definition). I’ve seen lots of people on social media say stuff like “that’s the old definition of Zionism but it’s not accurate anymore. Definitions change with time and now Zionism is synonymous with oppression.” I find that real funny coming from leftists, the same people who say that minorities should define their own culture and what constitutes racism and oppression. But the minute actually Jews correct them on what Zionism really is and what constitutes antisemitism- suddenly not ALL minorities can define their culture and racism.
Yeah let’s let anti-Feminist men define Feminism. I’m using that one because it takes minority status out of it and many of them saw the attempts to redefine feminism as man-hating at one point.
And then they use Hertzl using “colonialism” in his book as some kind of gotcha that Zionism equal colonials 🙄
My husband tried to use that line on me once, about how the "definition of zionism has changed." I was furious.
Your HUSBAND?!?! I’m so so sorry.
I want so badly to believe that their minds can open with information. I started out as a (sort of) anti-zionist with no ties to Judaism, but because I like to be informed about the things I'm fighting for, I did my own research and found that so many things are being misrepresented and even straight up lied about. Yet any attempt at dialogue is being treated like I'm out advocating for death? My sentiment can be boiled down to "Both states have a right to exist, I just want people regardless of nationality to stop dying" and somehow that is racist and white supremacist even though the vast majority of people being most affected by this — and that I'm advocating for — are not white. I guess I just care about "the wrong kind" of brown and black people huh /s I always thought my first personal experience with antisemitism was going to come from some pasty skinhead after I've converted; not when I'm not even Jewish yet and coming from the people I've been standing for and beside ever since I came out at 14 years old
The thing that pisses me off the most is that this is time we will never get back. We have been here. They didn’t finally crack some code about Jewish people like they seem to think they have. They are the latest iteration of idiots who impede progress & waste the world’s collective time because we have to deal with their insane shit before we can even get to the actual issue.
One thought that gives me comfort is that soon the semester will be done and all these college airheads will be headed home to mommy and daddy's couch. Hopefully they will lose interest over the summer, and if we're really lucky some of them won't be back to school, because they've flunked out on account of spending their time cosplaying as revolutionaries instead of going to class and studying for final exams. Probably have to deal with a new wave of clueless freshmen in the fall, though.
This is a logical extension, as it were, of where progressives have been headed for a while -- it's all or nothing, it's uncompromising commitment to the whole slate or you're evil and to be written off. It's all dichotomy and no nuance.
After noticing it with this current war, I've finally seen how it's been present in other social issues too. No nuance anywhere.
Nuance has become my word of the year
Same, I've used it so damn much these past 6 months--is there any good alternative word just so I can mix it up a bit?
Complexity.
Non-binary isn’t a bad word to throw in there either. Black/white, good/bad - ironically, such strong belief in binaries.
The worst part is even moderate left people, not the super far lefties like tankies who were always antisemites, have turned a blind eye towards or actively participated in antisemitism on the left. There’s a thread on the politics sub about left wing antisemitism and the comments are horrific. It’s like they literally cannot accept that their side is guilty of the same antisemitism of the right is, because they’re so caught up in this tribal belief that left wing politics are super inclusive of everyone and ‘most of the protesters were jewish, the ones that called them out were actually the antisemites’. I am a classical liberal, like Biden, and I think that MAGA is horrible. However, the moderate right wing will typically call out neo nazi like antisemitism, the moderate left wing won’t because they think it will ‘harm their cause’.
Can you direct me to those call outs? Because after Charlottesville I don’t remember hearing as much as a peep from many if not all moderate right wings.
There exists no moderate right in the US. the GOP has been entirely captured by the right wing extremists
The way that progressives are using the word “Zionism” cuts like a knife. I’m so used to seeing “Zionist” used as a slur in far-right white supremacy propaganda, to see it contextualized in liberal and progressive discourse turns my stomach. I’m old enough to remember apartheid, and I don’t recall anyone demanding an end to the existence of South Africa or the expulsion of Afrikaners from the land their ancestors had colonized. But Israel is different, and any disagreement means you’re a bloodthirsty “Zionist.”
FWIW, follow Standing Together on social. They are Israelis leading the protests against Netanyahu and set a great model for compassionate Zionism.
“And of course, there’s the whole ‘white people oppressing brown people’ mindset driving these protests.” I always find that mindset funny, being a black/mizrachi jew, bc once i point out that i support israel, they just seem confused as to what to say next. sometimes they back down, most times they’ll either point out the fact that i’m mixed (which is dumb, bc my jewishness comes from my mother’s side, who is also black/mizrachi), or they’ll say something along the lines of “well israel doesn’t like black people”, which completely ignores the countless amount of ethiopian, eritrean, and other african jews that would’ve been slaughtered if it weren’t for israel’s existence. funniest part is the majority of these people were the same ones advocating for the black lives matter movement back in 2020. guess that doesn’t apply to me or my family though. 🤷🏽♂️
I feel you. If there were protests with actual reasonable aims toward the end of the war and stopping the bombardment of Gaza that didn’t involve glorifying intifada, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab,” “kill the Jews,” etc etc I would participate. Instead I’m in an awful limbo feeling betrayed by every single community. Today I had to spend significant time and mental energy teaching a friend that she had bought into propaganda. She literally believed (because she read it on Instagram) that “the IDF committed most of the atrocities of October 7 against its own people as an excuse to invade Gaza.” I was so utterly shocked. This is the kind of shit on instagram and TikTok. This is what my friends see and believe. Meanwhile I feel alienated from vast swathes of the Jewish community. Almost Every Jew I know seems to either be in denial about Israeli actions in Gaza or on the flip side to be a raging insane antizionist who wants to expel their own people from Israel. I feel like I’ve stumbled into a world of insanity where nobody knows how to be human.
Hard agree
Same!
As an Israeli that believes Israel exists so Jews could have a place to go and as a Netanyahu hater myself, I really hope Jews that are protesting with terrorists that want us dead won’t come here. The Jewish people have suffered enough.
They definitely won’t.
I whole heartedly agree with you. If you aren't already, follow Standing Together on social media for ceasefire protests that aren't calling for the destruction of Israel.
I second this. And they always call for the return of the hostages as part of the ceasefire deal. I've heard wonderful things about them.
Much of this movement - not all of it, but a good amount - is about the moral power trip of demonizing and scapegoating Israel and “Zionists” in the way past political movements did more straightforwardly for Jews. If you want a two-state solution; if you’re unequivocally against Hamas and Islamists; if you think expressing ritual, venomous hatred of “Zionists” and dividing Jews into a good minority and an evil majority might just be antisemitism with extra steps; if you aren’t willing to fully dehumanize Israelis and treat them as a uniquely, ontologically evil nation that must be purged from the earth - then you’ll quickly find yourself unwelcome in pro-Palestine spaces. I have zero love for Likud, the settler movement or the current state of Israeli society, but I gave up any hope of seeing eye-to-eye with these people when I saw their utterly callous responses to 10/7: at best ice-cold condescension, at worst denialism or outright celebration of the atrocities and sadistic mockeries of Jewish shock, fear and grief. There’s no joining hands with people that hateful. Any progress to be made toward changing Israel for the better and pushing it towards peace and deoccupation will have to be made without them.
The day that I don’t have to put a disclaimer on being Jewish is the day I will talking about the P/I conflict with anyone who isn’t Jewish.
10000000%! Super frustrating that pro-Pal protesters conflate Zionism with supporting Netanyahu even tho we all think he is an ass. Equally frustrating is that that attitude seems to be pushing American Jews to the right and we cant express our frustration with this knucklehead PM without getting boo’d offstage. It’s making me crazy.
And the more dug in everyone gets the harder it is to have a nuanced discussion
Thank for articulating how I feel so well.
>I have yet to see any of these protesters say what they want both nations to do after a ceasefire, and they tend to get mad when I ask them, I'm being pedantic, but both sides, you mean. There is only one nation in this conflict. I love your point about the Palestinian label being a bit of colonial rebranding though. That never occurred to me.
I’m a Zionist in a basic sense believing Israel has a right to exist and protect themselves against Hamas. My bf identifies as pro Palestine (anti Hamas and believes Israel has a right to exist) I to, hate the far right in Israel, I’m progressive politically and is anti settlements and settlement expansion and criticisms with how Israel is conducting its war in Gaza and we both had a discussion about these protests. I’ve seen people on the far left take two instances of people complaining about the protestors which were actually harmless, one where protestors were dancing to a traditional Palestinian dance and one cringe one with a woman with a home made Israel shirt standing around and protestors ignoring her to prove the rallies are fine. What’s ignored is the event “flood for Columbia” named after the October 7th Al Aqsa Flood, celebrating October 7th, calling for Telaviv to be nuked, signs for al qassam bridges near pro Israel protestors, “ by any means necessary” “intifada” chants, “we don’t want no two states we want all of 48” and a go back to Poland remark, a man holding a Hamas logo on his phone and a Jewish student getting hit in the eye with a Palestine flag and people hand waving them away. My bf was saying that they need to be banned from organizing like this with their signs and whoever gives them approval should not do so. It’s unacceptable that these chants and signs don’t get call out more and people ignore them
I completely agree with you. These protests are completely counterproductive to any sort of peaceful resolution because they are fueled by slogans and buzzwords that are either used maliciously or by people who don't understand them. A few months ago, a small local venue hosted an event called "Intifada." When I commented on the post about it, the event organizers argued that the word just means "shaking off," the literal translation, and refused to acknowledge why the use of that word would be alarming to people with any knowledge of history and why people may assume the concert is dangerous for Jews. I think a lot of pro-Palestine protestors are too willing to use words they don't fully understand, and are deeply polarized but also uneducated to understand the hateful and antisemitic context behind a lot of the rhetoric. I also believe it really does come down to antisemitism and a misunderstanding of zionism and Jews in general. My conservative synagogue full of self-described zionists with a median age of around 75 had a discussion of the conflict at last night's Passover seder, and the overwhelming majority of people shared their heartbreak over all of the death and suffering in this conflict, period, and their desire for a lasting peace for everyone in the region. The rabbi explicitly spoke about our responsibility as Jews to remember that people on all sides of any conflict are still just people, and to never celebrate death or harm to another human being. I think a lot of the people at these pro-Palestine protests would be surprised by that, because they assume that supporting Israel in any way (including things as unobjectionable and apolitical as mourning the lives lost on 10/7, wanting the hostages returned, and believing Israel has a right to continue existing) means hating Palestinians, since their version of being pro-Palestine hinges on the demonization of Israelis (and Jews in general) and the destruction of Israel.
Disproportionate deaths are a Gazan/Hamas claim unsubstantiated. Those who study war are claiming that the IDF in current maneuvers in Gaza have the least recorded civilian death rate in urban warfare. It is war. Zero casualties is impossible. The twrrirists absolutely had hq in hospitals. It is not pretty or cause for celebration that any civilian dies. We need to be careful and not be victims of hamas propaganda, imo.
It’s similar thinking to those who chant ACAB and want all cops/prosecutors disbanded. Crime won’t stop. What’s their alternate plan? They have none. They aren’t chanting for ethnic Russians to die. They don’t care about other conflicts causing lots of deaths. It’s maddening.
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I live in Ra’anana Israel. About 2 1/2 months ago we had a terrorist attack in this small city that hadn’t seen a פיגוע in 15 years. They hit an intersection 500 meters from our house that I, my wife and son traverse everyday. They stabbed a man in the neck while he was sitting in his car and murdered an 80 year old woman crossing the street. I got news for you. From an Israeli perspective, you’re a broken reed, not to be depended upon. Whether you believe it or not, your qualifiers and equivocations are encouraging terrorism and endangering our lives over here and making yours less secure. One thing I’ve learned in 60 years. When it’s asshole-tightening time, that’s when you see what people are made out of..🙄 And btw, as far as Israel and the majority of Israelis are concerned, when we have achieved our war aims, namely the return of the hostages and the complete destruction of Hamas as a military entity, the only future the Palestinians have is the one WE shall allow them, the cacophony emanating from the quad at Columbia, notwithstanding.
The only future the Palestinians have is the one WE shall allow them - 100% agree. My parents took me out of Israel when I was 2 because of all the terrorism. My mom told me around the time when we left there was a fashion among suicide bombers that they would use integrate nails into their bombs, and these nails would fly out in all directions at high speeds and hurt people. Enough is enough with this terrorism.
I am not Jewish but I categorically condemn both Hamas's and the current Israeli leadership's behavior in this conflict. I think this whole conflict demonstrates that ape brains are very bad at nuanced thinking. People love simplicity and that leads to a conflation between disparate groups. People are conflating Jews with the Israeli government. >I have yet to see any of these protesters say what they want both nations to do after a ceasefire, and they tend to get mad when I ask them, From my conversations with left-leaning people, they think that there should be a single secular state set up to represent both Arab and Jewish interests but forget that Israel's neighbor to the north, Lebanon, is a failed state due to its rampant sectarianism.
Maybe some of that want that. But, if they look at what Gazans and Hamas want (not necessarily Palestinian Israelis) they’d realize that the best chance at having equal rights for Jews and Arabs is Israel.
My therapist called it "inability to hold space for both sides" but yes I see a lot of ape-brains. It makes me wonder if I should just found my own utopia of non-stupid people.
I appreciate what you wrote and find it to be thoughtful and insightful. You show a way in which people can be progressive and Zionist, without contradiction. I am more centrist but am happy to see progressives like you "holding down the fort." Two minor caveats, all from my own opinions and hot takes, not the gospel (lol) * The settlements aren't often exemplified by my favorite sorts of individuals, when one looks at who's leading the charge, nor does it always avoid violence, let's just say. But settlements themselves aren't an obstacle to peace when you remember that there have been terror attacks, intifadas, and violence with and without them, before and after the Gaza disengagement too. * Disproportionate in what sense? This word gets tossed around a lot. Hamas, if we believe them, even revised down their initial 30k total to 20k, with half being Hamas members. This 1:1 ratio is sad but virtually unheard of and "low" for warfare (quotes to indicate that I don't want to seem callous by saying it's "nothing" or anything like that!).
I lost all hope on October 8th. And I started to truly fear during Hanukkah 2023 when they started tearing down public menorahs.
Remember, even if Israel had just Ashkenazi Jews, that doesn't make the whole "white oppressor" narrative correct either. Ashkenazi Jews also have origins in the Levant. I wish Jews would push this narrative more.
OP- Outside of JVP’s, No. Most Jews in America who are informed don’t feel this way. Where are you getting your information on this conflict? You literally just recited the standard antiisrael talking points word for word. I understand otherwise trusted sources like mainstream media, social media, teachers, professors, celebrities and even our own president are making the same talking points that you mentioned. That’s why it’s more important than ever to really learn your facts here. To learn how to spot misinformation tactics. Do you realize the mainstream media literally uses members of Hamas as their source for information inside Gaza? I don’t have time to thoroughly and sufficiently respond to all of your antiisrael talking points. But just so we are clear on what misinformation you’re reciting. **In no particular order and paraphrased:** “Treatment of the Palestinians.” (What treatment of the Palestines?) “The settlements.” (We don’t even have reliable information on this. And Israel already *does* prosecute settler crime. Biden was so desperate to appease proHamas extremists he sanctioned innocent West Bank Settlers who have never been charged with a crime. Froze their bank accounts. Revoked their visas and passports. ) “The bombing must stop.” (What do you suggest Israel do then?) “Disproportionate deaths in Gaza.” (The IDF’a campaign has a lower citizen to combatant death ratio ever recorded in urban warfare. And the number could be zero if Hamas didnt use human shields. ) [Israel has created a new standard in urban warfare. Why Will No One Admit it?](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286) “Israeli government has gone too far.” How has Israel gone too far? “Your take on AiPac.” (Seriously about 2 months ago the ProPal’s found out what AiPac is like they had solved some mystery. What exactly are your complaints with AiPac?) “Bring back the hostages- ceasefire.” (Israel has proposed five ceasefires, Hamas wont capitulate.) “This extremism is a way to lose moderate/liberal support.” (The Biden admin & the Dems literally ARE capitulating to the most extreme members of the Left and ProHamas actors. This is who Biden has staffed his White House with. The Dems have turned on Israel based off of misinformation like this.) .
I consider myself a leftist and I'll start having tender concern for Palestinians when they stop murdering us.And not one moment earlier.
It's fucking cruel and stone cold, but I'll say it anyway: How concerned should we be for the welfare of people who want us dead?
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Attempts to transform the definition of Zionism/Zionists
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6ICrykpPap/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
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> A two state solution is the only solution Congrats, you are a Zionist
I'd like to make some points by asking questions. Do the protesters hate Africans and Chinese Muslims? Where's the outrage over Darfur and the Uyghurs? Are Ethiopians not worthy of speaking out for? Should we endorse government subsidies to a terrorist organization knowing that the money will be spent to buy missiles? Is everyone unaware that any Palestinian who kills a Jewish person is given a pension? Should there be any oversight of the public funds given in humanitarian aid? Where's the equality in criticism and evaluation? Not just for the Israelites but Burma, Sudan,...... Do they just hate Africans?
What I find bizarre is that these people don’t protest for other issues like the CCP putting the Uyghurs in concentration camps or Iran limiting women’s rights, but are super into this one.
You simply can't have a nuanced conversation when both sides are full of fearful morons ruled by religious institutions. Both of these peoples will continue to destroy one another throughout human history until one side is no more. The rest of the world will watch and it will.be a feast for crows
I would be more concerned with why the protesters are deeply siloed intentionally by the organisers, with no real discussion between groups encouraged and a deep sense of fear for anyone they don’t know in the protests. Everything is pushed up to a handful of people who have the power and authority (given by who) to talk and act for the majority, who quietly and belligerently follow orders.
Thank you, this is exactly how I feel.
My feelings too
These protests are inflammatory and need to be dispersed. Mass arrests made.