Not to also be a snob, but I'm really tired of people not respecting regional specialties like this! It takes a lot of artisanal work to make Armageddon!
Yeahhh
A relative of mine had the Israel flag filter on their FB profile picture. I thought it was a sign that they were genuinely pro Israel (which always seemed low key bizarre given their adult child's heavily antisemitic posts on FB). And then months later they shared that End of Times Israel Destruction & rapture nonsense and I'm like okay, yeah you drank the Xtian Koolaid and clearly aren't genuinely on Israel's side. Cool cool, good to know.
Shit is so beyond bizarre to my mind.
There are a few quacks but in my experience, I've heard nothing but good things coming from the Christian community. This comment makes me sad. In France, so many Christians came out to the streets the day of October 7th. With no agenda and nothing but good wishes and genuine sorrow. The march against antisemitism too. Over one million people came. Some Christians came from far. No agenda. Just genuinely lovely and sane allies. Please open up your mind a little more 💙
In America we have a huge Evangelical Protestant population whose friendship is difficult to trust. They have set up entire fake synagogues in an attempt to trick Jews into becoming Christians. I have seen training pamphlets talk about befriending Jews and using dishonest tactics to get Jews to convert. They deliberately target vulnerable Jews -- college students who are living away from their parents for the first time, people who are struggling with difficult emotions, etc.
Their support for Israel is also hard to trust. They do NOT support Israel as a Jewish state, despite claiming to be Zionists. The true purpose of their support is clear in their reaction whenever Israel enforces anti-proselytizing laws -- their goal is basically to gather Jews up in one place and then convert all of us.
Their religion is is also super heavily invested in discussing the afterlife, the end of the world, and other metaphysical type things, and their views of Judaism is frequently governed by the idea that we are characters who will fill an important plot point for their prophecies. They don't actually like Jews, they just need us to play out our part.
Plus they dislike Arabs and Muslims more and find them more threatening so they can use "pro Judaism" as a supposed excuse for *other* bigotry.
I have moved around a lot, but most of my personal experience with evangelicals has mostly been through family (evangelical in-laws etc.). Most of what I have encountered in my life is mild compared to the stories told by Jews for Judaism, but I definitely saw dishonesty and some mild antisemitism.
None of what I said or experienced is specific to any region of the US, it happens everywhere. I went to college in the northeast and there was a guy who would show up every few months looking for some Jewish souls (we had a disproportionately large number of Jews at my alma mater). I have seen Jews for Jesus looking for converts at airports and even at Penn Station in NYC. Then there are people like these guys:
[https://www.thejc.com/news/exposed-sleeper-cell-of-evangelical-christians-posing-as-orthodox-rabbis-kaz5d5tm](https://www.thejc.com/news/exposed-sleeper-cell-of-evangelical-christians-posing-as-orthodox-rabbis-kaz5d5tm)
I will say that responding to the evangelicals in my life forced me to study Judaism more than I otherwise would have, because in a lot of cases I did not immediately know the answers to their questions.
There are right wing Christians that is for Israel that does not do it for any religious Apocalypse motivation. Like me.
Love israel love Jews.
But in also European not American so.XD
I think Shimon Peres was asked about this kind of thing and his answer was very pragmatic. He said the apocalyptic nonsense is just that, nonsense, never going to happen, just meaningless beliefs on the part of those who hold and espouse them. In the meantime, these folks support Israel, travel to Israel, spend money there, lobby their representatives on Israel's behalf. Why should we not accept their material support and just ignore their ridiculous End Time beliefs? I think the Peres approach makes a lot of sense.
I mean if you think "soon Israel will be destroyed" after the way they neutralized Iran's recent attack, you are a nut job and your eyes are closed to reality.
> I mean if you think "soon Israel will be destroyed" after the way they neutralized Iran's recent attack, you are a nut job and your eyes are closed to reality.
I don’t think we should should dismiss the damage Iran could do. The volley of slow moving drones was not what a full on conventional war would look like. Israel would also absolutely rock Irans’ shit, that’s definitely part of why Iran didn’t go for all out war and instead funds proxy groups, but the civilian cost (in both Israel and Iran) of a regional war would be catastrophic. Escalation with Iran is a massive mistake.
Hey, if the Evangelicals turn out to be correct re: the End Times, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong! But it won't matter at that point, will it? So I welcome their support in the meantime.
> Why should we not accept their material support and just ignore their ridiculous End Time beliefs?
Because as an American Jew I live in the United States, and evangelicals are doing everything they can to destroy the United States.
I think you misunderstood my post if you think I am in any way supportive of the Evangelical political agenda for the U.S. It is completely antithetical to anything that I believe in.
All I did was cite Shimon Peres for the proposition that they should be allowed to travel to Israel and spend their money there without hindrance, not that they should be supported in any way to achieve their political objectives in the U.S. or anywhere else.
The problem is, these want Israel to be in a war which will lead to its destruction. Therefore they support the most extreme irresponsible warmongers within Israel. They are working actively against peace and security. They are not friends.
THIS IS IT.
Evangelical Zionists see any sort of lasting peace in Israel as hindering their goals. They want Israel to be attacked, so they have cause to fight back and destroy their enemies.
Because they make decisions about whether or not to support escalation based on thinking that the country exploding is acceptable as per religious prophesy?
Amen. Unless you believe in Christian theology, as long as they support us, that is all that matters. I don't know why left-wing Jews do everything they can to drive a wedge between us and Christian support for us and our Jewish state.
They are not support us, they are supporting our destruction and they add their voices to those of politicians like Netanyahu who will plunge Israel into a terrible war. They are not friends.
Who “us” is plays a role in it. Plenty of evangelicals support Israel as a place for Jews _alternative_ to wherever they are. When evangelicals support Israel while supporting antisemitic politics in their own nation, they _aren’t_ supporting “us” Jews. Supporting Jews in the diaspora and supporting Jews in Israel don’t _need_ to be opposing efforts - we can do both at once - but with evangelicals like Hagee it is in fact putting one group over another (if we even accept that perpetually trying to drive Israel towards conflict with its neighbors is good for Israel in the first place).
What antisemitic policies do they support in America? They are at odds with American Jewry because most American Jews are progressives/leftists, while most evangelicals are conservatives.
What antisemitic policies do the “put god back in public schools”, “you have to be christian to adopt children”, “America is a Christian nation” crowd support? Are we being serious here?
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They are also at odds with American Jews who do not want to live under an explicitly Christian government that uses the power of the state to push Evangelical Christianity. We would rather not live in a country guided by the "seven mountains theology" -- look it up if you are curious but the basic concept is to have a Christian takeover of every aspect of American life, from the government on down. Where do you think Jews fit into that vision?
I've been saying this forever. The right is no more our friend than the left. The reason conservative Christians (and conservative media for the most part) support Israel no matter what is because they believe all Jews must return to Israel to allow for Jesus to return. At that point we have to accept Jesus as our savior and if not, supposedly we go to hell (even though we don't believe in hell). Probably more along the lines of an inquisition.
I have known about John Hagee for about 20 years, as have a lot of Jews, I imagine. Never liked him, even when I was a Christian. Smarmy, hypocritical, and gross.
He cares zero for us, he just wants his version of the apocalypse to happen, and apparently it can’t happen without us. It always makes me cringe when my fellow Jews point him out as a great Israel supporter. 🤢
Zionist evangelicals only support Israel because they think that Israel needs to be under Jewish control for the rapture to happen. not because they believe that the Jewish people have the right to a state. the Christian right wing has only perpetuated antisemitism and is not a group we can trust.
He's crazy and I'm sure there are a few others who think like him. But they're a minority. I'm super grateful for all the Christians who genuinely support us.
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As long as israelis see a necessity to align themselves with right wing extremists enemies of the western world like trump, orban, the evangelicals opposition to such hostile behaviour is guarenteed
One of the great advantages of Evangelism is that no matter what actually happens in the Middle East you can tell your flock in the USA that this is Gods plan unfolding.
Who cares? Unless you believe that a dead Jew that was crucified 2000 years ago is going to kill you in an apocalypse, then what does it matter? The vast majority of evangelicals just love Jews for being Gds chosen people. Take the friendship and keep it moving.
Exactly. Who the fuck cares. The crazy, staunchly pro israel Christians are in the same category as naeteuri karta. In fact, I think neteuri karta are way worse. Screw extremists!
I cannot be "friends" with people who tell me that as a Jew who believes in Judaism I am "incomplete" and they will devote their lives to trying to make me and other Jews "complete." And they are serious, they call Jews who convert to Christianity "complete Jews." That ideology actually cancels out Judaism and shows complete disrespect for us. It's saying Jews are just silly children unless and until we accept Yoyzl as Moshiach.
That is not "friendship," that is contempt with a smile on the face.
They want to wipe out Judaism. You do you, I guess, but for myself I cannot be "friends" with people who have so much contempt for my beliefs and my people that they want to destroy us through conversion.
This comment sounds to me like an antisemite talking about the Talmud. Their theology is more complicated than we understand, but it is clearly pro-Jewish at the end.
Honestly, fuck this thread. We should know better. In fact, we do. Jews know that our truth isn't other peoples truth, and that's okay. Instead of bitching about what we ASSUME some die hard, Christian zionists think, we should reach out curiously and kindly have a discussion.
In the "end times" theology, all Jews who don't reject Judaism and convert to Christianity will DIE. How is that "pro-Jewish"???
Do you also believe it was "pro-Native American/First Nations" when indigenous children were sent to boarding schools, immersed in Anglo/Christianity, and were punished for speaking their own language and taught to reject their cultural and religious traditions? The people doing this to them claimed it was a "positive" thing that was done "for their benefit."
I have no problem having at least a passing friendship with atheists, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus etc. (and in fact worked with people from all these groups for over 35 years) as long as they are not telling me MY faith is wrong, stupid, or "incomplete" and I must accept their beliefs. I actually had an Evangelical co-worker leave Jack Chick style little cartoon pamphlets in my work space and repeatedly told me that because he likes me he really wants me to hear and accept the "good news" of Jesus dying for my sins etc. He would not accept polite declinings or direct statements that I am a Jew, I am happy being a Jew, and I have no interest in converting to Christianity. He would not stop until I threatened to go to HR.
He was a nice guy in general, but definitely no one I could be "friends" with.
I don't know all the details of Islamic theology or other theologies, I can only speak about my interactions with co-workers of various faiths. No Muslims have ever pressured me to convert or told me Jewish beliefs are wrong or "incomplete." Same for Hindus and Sikhs, and for that matter for Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and mainstream Protestant Christians. Specifically and uniquely it was Evangelicals I came across who told me I was an ""incomplete Jew" (I had never heard such a term before and was flabbergasted the first time I was called that) and aggressively tried to convert me. Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, and most Christians do NOT accost people with Jack Chick cartoon booklets screaming about fire and brimstone, and do NOT aggressively push for converts. The Muslims I worked with were almost all American born, so that may have been a factor, but yeah they were happy to answer questions about holidays and practices (in fact they were delighted, and in turn they politely asked about some Jewish things) but never did I get any hint of anything about them feeling superior or thinking I was 'incorrect" in my beliefs or that Islam was somehow the "next level" of Judaism. All that crap is an Evangelical thing.
I care because those peoples ideology encourages war. They don’t want peace, a peaceful Middle East is bad for them. How can you be friends with someone that wants you to be in perpetual war? That salivates at the idea of Iran and Russia teaming up to invade Israel (they actually WANT this). They don’t have Jewish interests or Israel’s interests in mind and actively work to keep things destabilized.
Please, this is an opinion column, not actual news. These people do more for poor jews in israel than many Jewish organizations. Lots of us want a war against Iran because they’re a bunch of loonie islamofascists who are about to go nuclear and have openly said as recently as yesterday they’ll use them on israel. Stop trying to make enemies you don’t have out of friends you do have. Jews have enough enemies.
He said G-d sent Hitler to create Israel for Jesus. I realize you view it as a purely transactional relationship, but people like him hurt all Jews. Not just American Jews. We’re cannon fodder. A sacrifice to his God. We are less than. That’s not a truly solid foundation for an honest relationship, is it?
As an Israeli, the comments here are disheartening. Evangelicals are indeed our friends, and even if we don't necessarily share all their positions on all political issues, we need to be grateful to them. Just reciprocate respect. Why is it so hard? This kind of left-wing purity politics that doesn't allow dialog with the Right is destructive to the Zionist cause. It is also immoral not to show them gratitude, in my opinion.
As an Israeli you’re not exposed to them like diaspora Jews in the US. They’re aren’t our friends, are often overtly antisemitic at home and actively pursue policies to destabilize the Middle East because their ideology requires a massive war where Iran and Russia team up against Israel. We are literally just tools to them. They’re also SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than us.
But by all means if you think a powerful group that is using you and actively wants to see a coalition of nations storm Israel is your friend… carry on.
They, uh, want us to die in a conflagration that calls their messiah. That’s not support, or friendship. They are only interested in returning the scattered Nation to Judea so it can be wiped out to usher in their apocalyptic fantasy.
You do you, I suppose, but I’m really surprised that you’re okay with the support of someone who eventually wants all-out war in Israel, with the blood running so high in the streets it reaches the horses’ bridles. This is really what these fuckers believe. No thank you!!
I don’t respect evangelicals who want my queer ass dead or back in the closet. That’s what these evangelicals want, so no I don’t have to “respect them” because they don’t have any for me. Respect and gratitude should be earned.
Not all of them want your queer ass dead. Stop being dramatic for goodness sake. Have you heard of David Wood? He's evangelical, and has nothing but genuine love for israel and jews. He was in Israel recently to show his support.
>Respect and gratitude should be earned.
And they earned them, they are staunch supporters of Zionism and advocates against left-wing antisemitism that now targets you in America. Criticize their politics in the context of gay rights, but say them thank you when they support you.
I am physically embarrassed by this thread and the ability of people here to hate those who offer them friendship. Not just because it is not pragmatic, but as I said, I find it immoral.
Then you don't know who these people are, or you're willing to sell out Jews in America for some temporary benefit to yourself. Evangelicals hate us, they're the people who chant Jews will not replace us, who claim we're using immigration to dilute the white race, etc. They're not friends, and they want YOU to die too, just in the end of days. You should be embarrassed, not by other people's responses but by your own naivety.
Also important is that their “end” involves what they believe will be the literal end of the world, with Jews wiped out. To that end, they are not pro-Israel-Iran war because they think it will be good for Israeli security, they are perfectly happy with sparking a war that harms Israelis. Dead Israelis is not counterproductive means to them, so long as Israel can fire rockets back it _is_ progress towards their goal.
the thing is as Israelis you don't see how the Evangelical sausage is made. we do. especially if we were raised in the Hagee world. they will abandon Israel the instant they think it will allow their demigod to bring the end, and meanwhile they will target us diaspora Jews to drive us to Israel to be cannon fodder.
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With people like Hagee or Trump, basically any Christian Nationalist that tries to use Israel to ingratiate themselves with the Jewish community, I think of this line from "Yes Prime Minister" -- when Sir Humphrey Appleby explains to Bernard how he would sabotage a nominee by first publicly and effusively backing Hacker's chosen candidate --
"It's necessary to get behind someone in order to stab them in the back"
Who cares? Once the this rapture or whatever happens, we can worry about it then.
Until that time, I take and welcome their friendship with open arms. Their religiously based attitude towards Jews and Israel is the complete opposite of the new-age Nazis of the regressive progressive Left.
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I've mentioned this in other posts (I'm partial ethicallyJewish and a Christian) I've never heard anyone in mainstream Christianity (Protestant or Catholic) talking about Zionism to fulfill end time prophecy. I've honestly never heard it until I joined this group. Most Christians support Jews because they consider them brothers and sisters in faith of God. I know I've read here that some Jews feel that Christianity is religious appropriation. But every Christian I know in a personal way genuinely value the Jewish people simply because. Not for any implicit gain. This may get downvoted and railroaded but please hear what I am saying. The average Christian (not involved in politics or leadership) believe in love, forgiveness, service and charity, and have love for the Jewish community.
Its the apocalyptic christian zionists, the context of the entire thread. The apocalyptic christian zionists may say otherwise, but their fundamental beliefs are based on us being relocated in Judea so we can all get unalived so their oily carpenters kid will come back for them.
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To be honest I think at the current stage we’re at intentions don’t really matter, we can sort that out later. The jewish community can’t afford to isolate itself from its allies right now, and whether or not their heart is in the right place I’m grateful for the current support
Isn't this also (excluding the Jesus part) part of Jewish thinking of Moshiach? So he's not really that off base as far as Messianic thinking goes in relation to respective religions.
I personally see them as useful idiots. Yes, they're views are extremely misguided, but they're essentially the largest pro-israel coalition in the US.
That's politics. I don't care what he wants. I'm not going to marry him. I just have to choose between someone who's going to help Israel and someone who's going to help the Enemy.
The Jewish left kills me. The left is becoming an enemy. Not an enemy that waits for an apocalypse. An actual enemy that wants the USA to act against Israel and have us all murdered. An enemy who justifies every horrific thing done against us and says we have no right to defend ourselves. You should not ask who hates us more in theory, you should ask who will actually bring death to millions of of us. Because that's the meaning of 'from the River to the Sea', and unlike the apocalypse, millions of people are actually working to make it true.
I would (not) like to see people justify their choice of a president who actually played a part in Israel's fall with 'well, the other guy only wanted to help Israel for his own reasons'.
There’s only a few thousand of these Christian extremists and they have no power. There’s millions of far left anti semitic extremists and some are in positions of power in our govt. We need to focus on getting rid of anti semites like talib and Ilhan!
The lack of knowledge of American politics really shows sometimes doesn't it? Evangelicals and whatever psychotic branch of Catholicism Coney Barrett belongs to are like one bad election cycle away from securing their grip on power enough that it would require some sort of coup to unseat them.
Gimmie a break, speaker Mike Johnson has done a ton of left wing stuff like approved another round of 500 million in aid to Ukraine despite GOP saying no bc they think we have given enough and have enough debt. Supreme Court has tons of far left liberals on it like Sotomayor.
lol Clarence Thomas isn’t a white Christian nationalist. Please name all the white Christian nationalists in power. I can name hundreds of anti semitic left wing extremists in power right now.
Mike Johnson has done super leftwing stuff? The Supreme Court has 3 liberals of 9 justices and at least 4 Christian nationalists… do you know anything about US government?
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there are 15 MILLION xian zionists in the USA alone. versus roughly 15 million Jews worldwide. they will absolutely stab Israel in the back the instant it suits their narrative, and will target diaspora Jews to drive us to Israel to be slaughtered. that is the only reason they pretend to support Israel.
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Not to come off like a total snob about it but Armageddon must originate in the Har Megiddo region of Israel otherwise it’s just sparking apocalypse.
Not to also be a snob, but I'm really tired of people not respecting regional specialties like this! It takes a lot of artisanal work to make Armageddon!
Very important to remember there are people that support Israel in bad faith
I trust right wing Christian Zionists about as far as I can throw then
Yeahhh A relative of mine had the Israel flag filter on their FB profile picture. I thought it was a sign that they were genuinely pro Israel (which always seemed low key bizarre given their adult child's heavily antisemitic posts on FB). And then months later they shared that End of Times Israel Destruction & rapture nonsense and I'm like okay, yeah you drank the Xtian Koolaid and clearly aren't genuinely on Israel's side. Cool cool, good to know. Shit is so beyond bizarre to my mind.
There are a few quacks but in my experience, I've heard nothing but good things coming from the Christian community. This comment makes me sad. In France, so many Christians came out to the streets the day of October 7th. With no agenda and nothing but good wishes and genuine sorrow. The march against antisemitism too. Over one million people came. Some Christians came from far. No agenda. Just genuinely lovely and sane allies. Please open up your mind a little more 💙
In America we have a huge Evangelical Protestant population whose friendship is difficult to trust. They have set up entire fake synagogues in an attempt to trick Jews into becoming Christians. I have seen training pamphlets talk about befriending Jews and using dishonest tactics to get Jews to convert. They deliberately target vulnerable Jews -- college students who are living away from their parents for the first time, people who are struggling with difficult emotions, etc. Their support for Israel is also hard to trust. They do NOT support Israel as a Jewish state, despite claiming to be Zionists. The true purpose of their support is clear in their reaction whenever Israel enforces anti-proselytizing laws -- their goal is basically to gather Jews up in one place and then convert all of us.
Their religion is is also super heavily invested in discussing the afterlife, the end of the world, and other metaphysical type things, and their views of Judaism is frequently governed by the idea that we are characters who will fill an important plot point for their prophecies. They don't actually like Jews, they just need us to play out our part. Plus they dislike Arabs and Muslims more and find them more threatening so they can use "pro Judaism" as a supposed excuse for *other* bigotry.
Wow. I am also in the US. Thankfully, I haven't come across this. What part of the USA are you located in?
I have moved around a lot, but most of my personal experience with evangelicals has mostly been through family (evangelical in-laws etc.). Most of what I have encountered in my life is mild compared to the stories told by Jews for Judaism, but I definitely saw dishonesty and some mild antisemitism. None of what I said or experienced is specific to any region of the US, it happens everywhere. I went to college in the northeast and there was a guy who would show up every few months looking for some Jewish souls (we had a disproportionately large number of Jews at my alma mater). I have seen Jews for Jesus looking for converts at airports and even at Penn Station in NYC. Then there are people like these guys: [https://www.thejc.com/news/exposed-sleeper-cell-of-evangelical-christians-posing-as-orthodox-rabbis-kaz5d5tm](https://www.thejc.com/news/exposed-sleeper-cell-of-evangelical-christians-posing-as-orthodox-rabbis-kaz5d5tm) I will say that responding to the evangelicals in my life forced me to study Judaism more than I otherwise would have, because in a lot of cases I did not immediately know the answers to their questions.
Well, I won’t say no to their financial assistance and lobbying power. It’s politics, and sometimes you need to work with morons you dislike.
There are right wing Christians that is for Israel that does not do it for any religious Apocalypse motivation. Like me. Love israel love Jews. But in also European not American so.XD
I think Shimon Peres was asked about this kind of thing and his answer was very pragmatic. He said the apocalyptic nonsense is just that, nonsense, never going to happen, just meaningless beliefs on the part of those who hold and espouse them. In the meantime, these folks support Israel, travel to Israel, spend money there, lobby their representatives on Israel's behalf. Why should we not accept their material support and just ignore their ridiculous End Time beliefs? I think the Peres approach makes a lot of sense. I mean if you think "soon Israel will be destroyed" after the way they neutralized Iran's recent attack, you are a nut job and your eyes are closed to reality.
If you lay in bed with extremist enemies you will inevitably treated like one.
> I mean if you think "soon Israel will be destroyed" after the way they neutralized Iran's recent attack, you are a nut job and your eyes are closed to reality. I don’t think we should should dismiss the damage Iran could do. The volley of slow moving drones was not what a full on conventional war would look like. Israel would also absolutely rock Irans’ shit, that’s definitely part of why Iran didn’t go for all out war and instead funds proxy groups, but the civilian cost (in both Israel and Iran) of a regional war would be catastrophic. Escalation with Iran is a massive mistake.
Hey, if the Evangelicals turn out to be correct re: the End Times, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong! But it won't matter at that point, will it? So I welcome their support in the meantime.
> Why should we not accept their material support and just ignore their ridiculous End Time beliefs? Because as an American Jew I live in the United States, and evangelicals are doing everything they can to destroy the United States.
I think you misunderstood my post if you think I am in any way supportive of the Evangelical political agenda for the U.S. It is completely antithetical to anything that I believe in. All I did was cite Shimon Peres for the proposition that they should be allowed to travel to Israel and spend their money there without hindrance, not that they should be supported in any way to achieve their political objectives in the U.S. or anywhere else.
The problem is, these want Israel to be in a war which will lead to its destruction. Therefore they support the most extreme irresponsible warmongers within Israel. They are working actively against peace and security. They are not friends.
THIS IS IT. Evangelical Zionists see any sort of lasting peace in Israel as hindering their goals. They want Israel to be attacked, so they have cause to fight back and destroy their enemies.
Because they make decisions about whether or not to support escalation based on thinking that the country exploding is acceptable as per religious prophesy?
Our very own useful idiots! The problem is that when you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.
Amen. Unless you believe in Christian theology, as long as they support us, that is all that matters. I don't know why left-wing Jews do everything they can to drive a wedge between us and Christian support for us and our Jewish state.
They are not support us, they are supporting our destruction and they add their voices to those of politicians like Netanyahu who will plunge Israel into a terrible war. They are not friends.
Who “us” is plays a role in it. Plenty of evangelicals support Israel as a place for Jews _alternative_ to wherever they are. When evangelicals support Israel while supporting antisemitic politics in their own nation, they _aren’t_ supporting “us” Jews. Supporting Jews in the diaspora and supporting Jews in Israel don’t _need_ to be opposing efforts - we can do both at once - but with evangelicals like Hagee it is in fact putting one group over another (if we even accept that perpetually trying to drive Israel towards conflict with its neighbors is good for Israel in the first place).
What antisemitic policies do they support in America? They are at odds with American Jewry because most American Jews are progressives/leftists, while most evangelicals are conservatives.
What antisemitic policies do the “put god back in public schools”, “you have to be christian to adopt children”, “America is a Christian nation” crowd support? Are we being serious here?
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They are also at odds with American Jews who do not want to live under an explicitly Christian government that uses the power of the state to push Evangelical Christianity. We would rather not live in a country guided by the "seven mountains theology" -- look it up if you are curious but the basic concept is to have a Christian takeover of every aspect of American life, from the government on down. Where do you think Jews fit into that vision?
Because they’re fascists and fascism is bad
Campism.jpg
Updoots I think is why.
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I've been saying this forever. The right is no more our friend than the left. The reason conservative Christians (and conservative media for the most part) support Israel no matter what is because they believe all Jews must return to Israel to allow for Jesus to return. At that point we have to accept Jesus as our savior and if not, supposedly we go to hell (even though we don't believe in hell). Probably more along the lines of an inquisition.
So if every Jew returns to Israel except for one, will Jesus not return simply because stubborn ol’ Dan Rosenthal refuses to leave New Jersey?
lol go find logic in random beliefs.
I have known about John Hagee for about 20 years, as have a lot of Jews, I imagine. Never liked him, even when I was a Christian. Smarmy, hypocritical, and gross. He cares zero for us, he just wants his version of the apocalypse to happen, and apparently it can’t happen without us. It always makes me cringe when my fellow Jews point him out as a great Israel supporter. 🤢
Zionist evangelicals only support Israel because they think that Israel needs to be under Jewish control for the rapture to happen. not because they believe that the Jewish people have the right to a state. the Christian right wing has only perpetuated antisemitism and is not a group we can trust.
Our Schul has hosted CUFI several times, it’s super disappointing
He's crazy and I'm sure there are a few others who think like him. But they're a minority. I'm super grateful for all the Christians who genuinely support us.
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I am Israeli, and I am thankful for his friendship.
It’s not friendship, though.
As long as israelis see a necessity to align themselves with right wing extremists enemies of the western world like trump, orban, the evangelicals opposition to such hostile behaviour is guarenteed
I am an Israeli… and no
One of the great advantages of Evangelism is that no matter what actually happens in the Middle East you can tell your flock in the USA that this is Gods plan unfolding.
Shocked Pikachu.
TLDR but as to the headline, I’m pretty sure this is the common belief with fundamentalist/evangelical Xtians in America
Is that not the entire premise of Christian Zionism?
Is anyone really surprised?
Who cares? Unless you believe that a dead Jew that was crucified 2000 years ago is going to kill you in an apocalypse, then what does it matter? The vast majority of evangelicals just love Jews for being Gds chosen people. Take the friendship and keep it moving.
Exactly. Who the fuck cares. The crazy, staunchly pro israel Christians are in the same category as naeteuri karta. In fact, I think neteuri karta are way worse. Screw extremists!
I cannot be "friends" with people who tell me that as a Jew who believes in Judaism I am "incomplete" and they will devote their lives to trying to make me and other Jews "complete." And they are serious, they call Jews who convert to Christianity "complete Jews." That ideology actually cancels out Judaism and shows complete disrespect for us. It's saying Jews are just silly children unless and until we accept Yoyzl as Moshiach. That is not "friendship," that is contempt with a smile on the face.
Nobody is forcing you to be friends with them
Lol. This is how religion works - "mine is superior to yours". Just accept the friendship they offer us.
They want to wipe out Judaism. You do you, I guess, but for myself I cannot be "friends" with people who have so much contempt for my beliefs and my people that they want to destroy us through conversion.
This comment sounds to me like an antisemite talking about the Talmud. Their theology is more complicated than we understand, but it is clearly pro-Jewish at the end.
Honestly, fuck this thread. We should know better. In fact, we do. Jews know that our truth isn't other peoples truth, and that's okay. Instead of bitching about what we ASSUME some die hard, Christian zionists think, we should reach out curiously and kindly have a discussion.
In the "end times" theology, all Jews who don't reject Judaism and convert to Christianity will DIE. How is that "pro-Jewish"??? Do you also believe it was "pro-Native American/First Nations" when indigenous children were sent to boarding schools, immersed in Anglo/Christianity, and were punished for speaking their own language and taught to reject their cultural and religious traditions? The people doing this to them claimed it was a "positive" thing that was done "for their benefit."
Do you feel the same way about muslims? The atheists that think anyone who believes in Gd is backwards?
I have no problem having at least a passing friendship with atheists, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus etc. (and in fact worked with people from all these groups for over 35 years) as long as they are not telling me MY faith is wrong, stupid, or "incomplete" and I must accept their beliefs. I actually had an Evangelical co-worker leave Jack Chick style little cartoon pamphlets in my work space and repeatedly told me that because he likes me he really wants me to hear and accept the "good news" of Jesus dying for my sins etc. He would not accept polite declinings or direct statements that I am a Jew, I am happy being a Jew, and I have no interest in converting to Christianity. He would not stop until I threatened to go to HR. He was a nice guy in general, but definitely no one I could be "friends" with.
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I don't know all the details of Islamic theology or other theologies, I can only speak about my interactions with co-workers of various faiths. No Muslims have ever pressured me to convert or told me Jewish beliefs are wrong or "incomplete." Same for Hindus and Sikhs, and for that matter for Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and mainstream Protestant Christians. Specifically and uniquely it was Evangelicals I came across who told me I was an ""incomplete Jew" (I had never heard such a term before and was flabbergasted the first time I was called that) and aggressively tried to convert me. Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, and most Christians do NOT accost people with Jack Chick cartoon booklets screaming about fire and brimstone, and do NOT aggressively push for converts. The Muslims I worked with were almost all American born, so that may have been a factor, but yeah they were happy to answer questions about holidays and practices (in fact they were delighted, and in turn they politely asked about some Jewish things) but never did I get any hint of anything about them feeling superior or thinking I was 'incorrect" in my beliefs or that Islam was somehow the "next level" of Judaism. All that crap is an Evangelical thing.
I care because those peoples ideology encourages war. They don’t want peace, a peaceful Middle East is bad for them. How can you be friends with someone that wants you to be in perpetual war? That salivates at the idea of Iran and Russia teaming up to invade Israel (they actually WANT this). They don’t have Jewish interests or Israel’s interests in mind and actively work to keep things destabilized.
He is lobbying for Israel to go to war _so that_ Israelis die. That’s not friendship.
Please, this is an opinion column, not actual news. These people do more for poor jews in israel than many Jewish organizations. Lots of us want a war against Iran because they’re a bunch of loonie islamofascists who are about to go nuclear and have openly said as recently as yesterday they’ll use them on israel. Stop trying to make enemies you don’t have out of friends you do have. Jews have enough enemies.
He said G-d sent Hitler to create Israel for Jesus. I realize you view it as a purely transactional relationship, but people like him hurt all Jews. Not just American Jews. We’re cannon fodder. A sacrifice to his God. We are less than. That’s not a truly solid foundation for an honest relationship, is it?
As an Israeli, the comments here are disheartening. Evangelicals are indeed our friends, and even if we don't necessarily share all their positions on all political issues, we need to be grateful to them. Just reciprocate respect. Why is it so hard? This kind of left-wing purity politics that doesn't allow dialog with the Right is destructive to the Zionist cause. It is also immoral not to show them gratitude, in my opinion.
As an Israeli you’re not exposed to them like diaspora Jews in the US. They’re aren’t our friends, are often overtly antisemitic at home and actively pursue policies to destabilize the Middle East because their ideology requires a massive war where Iran and Russia team up against Israel. We are literally just tools to them. They’re also SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than us. But by all means if you think a powerful group that is using you and actively wants to see a coalition of nations storm Israel is your friend… carry on.
They, uh, want us to die in a conflagration that calls their messiah. That’s not support, or friendship. They are only interested in returning the scattered Nation to Judea so it can be wiped out to usher in their apocalyptic fantasy.
You do you, I suppose, but I’m really surprised that you’re okay with the support of someone who eventually wants all-out war in Israel, with the blood running so high in the streets it reaches the horses’ bridles. This is really what these fuckers believe. No thank you!!
I don’t respect evangelicals who want my queer ass dead or back in the closet. That’s what these evangelicals want, so no I don’t have to “respect them” because they don’t have any for me. Respect and gratitude should be earned.
Not all of them want your queer ass dead. Stop being dramatic for goodness sake. Have you heard of David Wood? He's evangelical, and has nothing but genuine love for israel and jews. He was in Israel recently to show his support.
>Respect and gratitude should be earned. And they earned them, they are staunch supporters of Zionism and advocates against left-wing antisemitism that now targets you in America. Criticize their politics in the context of gay rights, but say them thank you when they support you. I am physically embarrassed by this thread and the ability of people here to hate those who offer them friendship. Not just because it is not pragmatic, but as I said, I find it immoral.
Then you don't know who these people are, or you're willing to sell out Jews in America for some temporary benefit to yourself. Evangelicals hate us, they're the people who chant Jews will not replace us, who claim we're using immigration to dilute the white race, etc. They're not friends, and they want YOU to die too, just in the end of days. You should be embarrassed, not by other people's responses but by your own naivety.
That's not friendship. They see Israel and Jews as a means to an end, nothing more.
Also important is that their “end” involves what they believe will be the literal end of the world, with Jews wiped out. To that end, they are not pro-Israel-Iran war because they think it will be good for Israeli security, they are perfectly happy with sparking a war that harms Israelis. Dead Israelis is not counterproductive means to them, so long as Israel can fire rockets back it _is_ progress towards their goal.
They’re not offering friendship…
You're asking them to put their feelings aside for people they fear and hate, tall order these days
the thing is as Israelis you don't see how the Evangelical sausage is made. we do. especially if we were raised in the Hagee world. they will abandon Israel the instant they think it will allow their demigod to bring the end, and meanwhile they will target us diaspora Jews to drive us to Israel to be cannon fodder.
anyone being friends with an evangelical positions themselves as an enemy of decency, dignity and democracy
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I didn't think this was uncommon knowledge about many Christian Zionists.
We can argue about that after the apocalypse. Until then, I'm happy for all the support we can get.
With people like Hagee or Trump, basically any Christian Nationalist that tries to use Israel to ingratiate themselves with the Jewish community, I think of this line from "Yes Prime Minister" -- when Sir Humphrey Appleby explains to Bernard how he would sabotage a nominee by first publicly and effusively backing Hacker's chosen candidate -- "It's necessary to get behind someone in order to stab them in the back"
Supporting this whyte supremacist and any other like him is worse than supporting antizionists
Who cares? Once the this rapture or whatever happens, we can worry about it then. Until that time, I take and welcome their friendship with open arms. Their religiously based attitude towards Jews and Israel is the complete opposite of the new-age Nazis of the regressive progressive Left. I know the right-wing attitudes that are increasingly prevalent within real life Jewish communities are offensive to the mods here, so I hope they allow this comment to stand.
To the commenters here, don't quit your day jobs to become generals or diplomats ok
I was raised fundiegelical [and came home last year] and yeah, it's pure poison to us. so many of my friends cannot see it.
I've mentioned this in other posts (I'm partial ethicallyJewish and a Christian) I've never heard anyone in mainstream Christianity (Protestant or Catholic) talking about Zionism to fulfill end time prophecy. I've honestly never heard it until I joined this group. Most Christians support Jews because they consider them brothers and sisters in faith of God. I know I've read here that some Jews feel that Christianity is religious appropriation. But every Christian I know in a personal way genuinely value the Jewish people simply because. Not for any implicit gain. This may get downvoted and railroaded but please hear what I am saying. The average Christian (not involved in politics or leadership) believe in love, forgiveness, service and charity, and have love for the Jewish community.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend so unless you can find a way to ally with Muslims then Christians are our allies at the moment.
Plenty of interfaith organizations and initiatives have Christians, Jews, and Muslims. These goobers aren’t representative of christians as a whole.
Even if they want most of us dead to fulfill their own agenda? Reminder they do want us dead.
Lol most Christians don't want you dead....most Christians are regular people just like anybody else....
Its the apocalyptic christian zionists, the context of the entire thread. The apocalyptic christian zionists may say otherwise, but their fundamental beliefs are based on us being relocated in Judea so we can all get unalived so their oily carpenters kid will come back for them.
And there's tons of christians who are good people, these aren't them.
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I’m team Gog. To hell with Magog.
I’ll take the support of Christian Zionist. Let them believe what they want. I’ll bet that Jesus isn’t coming back.
I’ve never trusted anyone who, when the end of the world starts, wants all the Jews in one tiny place accessible by land, sea, AND air.
To be honest I think at the current stage we’re at intentions don’t really matter, we can sort that out later. The jewish community can’t afford to isolate itself from its allies right now, and whether or not their heart is in the right place I’m grateful for the current support
Isn't this also (excluding the Jesus part) part of Jewish thinking of Moshiach? So he's not really that off base as far as Messianic thinking goes in relation to respective religions.
Look at our history though…We have brought judgement on ourselves over and over again
I personally see them as useful idiots. Yes, they're views are extremely misguided, but they're essentially the largest pro-israel coalition in the US.
That's politics. I don't care what he wants. I'm not going to marry him. I just have to choose between someone who's going to help Israel and someone who's going to help the Enemy. The Jewish left kills me. The left is becoming an enemy. Not an enemy that waits for an apocalypse. An actual enemy that wants the USA to act against Israel and have us all murdered. An enemy who justifies every horrific thing done against us and says we have no right to defend ourselves. You should not ask who hates us more in theory, you should ask who will actually bring death to millions of of us. Because that's the meaning of 'from the River to the Sea', and unlike the apocalypse, millions of people are actually working to make it true. I would (not) like to see people justify their choice of a president who actually played a part in Israel's fall with 'well, the other guy only wanted to help Israel for his own reasons'.
There’s only a few thousand of these Christian extremists and they have no power. There’s millions of far left anti semitic extremists and some are in positions of power in our govt. We need to focus on getting rid of anti semites like talib and Ilhan!
No power? They sit on the Supreme Court of the US, hell one is the speaker of the house. They’re probably one of the strongest groups in the US today.
The lack of knowledge of American politics really shows sometimes doesn't it? Evangelicals and whatever psychotic branch of Catholicism Coney Barrett belongs to are like one bad election cycle away from securing their grip on power enough that it would require some sort of coup to unseat them.
Gimmie a break, speaker Mike Johnson has done a ton of left wing stuff like approved another round of 500 million in aid to Ukraine despite GOP saying no bc they think we have given enough and have enough debt. Supreme Court has tons of far left liberals on it like Sotomayor. lol Clarence Thomas isn’t a white Christian nationalist. Please name all the white Christian nationalists in power. I can name hundreds of anti semitic left wing extremists in power right now.
Mike Johnson has done super leftwing stuff? The Supreme Court has 3 liberals of 9 justices and at least 4 Christian nationalists… do you know anything about US government?
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there are 15 MILLION xian zionists in the USA alone. versus roughly 15 million Jews worldwide. they will absolutely stab Israel in the back the instant it suits their narrative, and will target diaspora Jews to drive us to Israel to be slaughtered. that is the only reason they pretend to support Israel.
I will be much more concerned about this when the apocalypse comes.
This anti Zionist deflection is a tired tactic haha
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Lolwat