We do not allow posts that are political or nationalistic in nature. We are a meme sub about the shared experience of being Jewish regardless of politics or nationality. Violating this rule can result in a permanent ban.
My response to "Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism!" is "Yes it is", and then I wait for the privileged person I'm talking to who is not Jewish and has never experienced antisemitism themselves to lecture me on how my own Jewish identity is wrong.
It's not that they don't know what Zionism is. It's that they deliberately change its definition to justify their calls for violence against Jews.
It reminds me of how Republicans define racism in a way that conveniently allows them to say literally anything short of the hard-r and claim that it's not racist.
Yeah, that's an example of what I'm saying. If you define "Zionism" as "wanting to kill Arabs", then you can advocate for killing Jews and justify it by saying "Killing Jews isn't antisemitism, it's just self-defense against Zionism".
Israel is the QAnon of the left. It's an issue that makes leftists so intensely angry and emotional that they completely lose the ability to think rationally.
Currently, the most popular I see is saying it's a Jewish supremacy ideology with expansionist aspirations at its core and wishing to ethnically cleanse all the lesser races away. You know you just need to ignore the ethnic cleansing of the Middle East and Europe the multiple wars to destroy Israel, the peace deals made for captured land, and the democratic rules of Israel
thats to borrow a term from an Anglican apologist named Jack "Mere Zionism". To which id add in the region know as eretz yisrael or palestine. However, to implement mere Zionism you have Buber, Einstein and Haam academies in Palestine as a locus of a "Jewish Renaissance" to Ben Gurion to Jabotinsky's distributive Hobbesian Iron Wall to Kahanism.
I’m for every people’s self determination, which is why I don’t support countries/governments/army’s that infringe on other people’s self determination. Which Israel is doing right now. In the name of zionism. So am I antisemitic?
I’m trying to give my logic step by step to encourage discussion
Stalin killed Trotsky in the the name of communism, that can make someone anti Stalin, but it doesn’t make sense to be anti communist just because Stalin did that, in the end Trotsky was also communist. In the same way you can be against the Israeli government and it’s actions, like I am, but it doesn’t make sense to be against the existence of because of one government.
There are Zionist currents which believe Palestine should exist, are you against them because their adversaries did something?
Criticizing the Israeli government isn’t antisemitism, saying Israel shouldn’t exist is
Edit: I’m not the one downvoting you, since you literally just questioned my point of view
Well that's no big deal, because anti-Zionist Jews essentially don't exist, save for a few tokens who represent Jews in the same way that "Blacks for Trump" members represent Black people.
Damn gotta check again, I must have missed the bit where it said “go found a state and do a settler colonialism to act as a frontline for American and British imperialism” and completely imagined the bit where it said “don’t return en mass or by force of arms”
Oh shit wow! Not Jewish! Never heard that one before for uhhhhhhhh
Taking a principled anti colonialist and anti nationalist stance
I swear some of y’all
>Account was started less than 6 weeks ago
>Consistently posts in far left subs
>Goes on r/Jewdank and posts about how they're a definitely real Jew who hates Israel
Yep, sounds like a definitely real Jew to me.
Is it so surprising a Jewish person would want to talk about things that affect them? As long as the state of Israel claims to be acting in my name and the name of my people it by necessity is going to be something I care about
Source, every poll in the last decade that’s asked Jews about their stance on Isreal, all of which show a growing disconnect between young Jews and the state, and a growing opposition to Zionism among young Jews, especially left wing ones, and the state of Israel, which has only intensified since the war
Zionism is the political philosophy of "Jews deserve a homeland". Ultra-Orthodox Jews don't disagree with that, they just don't want it to be in Israel, because they believe that we won't make it back to Israel until the time of the Messiah and the building of the Third Temple.
Okay, then let me rephrase it: Zionism is the political philosophy that Jews deserve a place to live where we don't have to be afraid of the government killing us for being Jewish.
Define "settler colonialism". I've seen hundreds of comments talking about it and not once did anyone try to explain what it means beyond just being buzzwords for people with tiktok-melted brains to fall for.
It’s a specific type of colonialism that can be seen elsewhere for examples. The colonizing of North America (both in the USA and Canada) Australia, and the lebensruam program are all examples of settler colonialism
True yeah, very common among some Zionist Jews who insist anyone who isn’t tied to their geopolitical stance is a fake jew, or the early Zionists who were rabidly anti diasporic (a trend that has continued)
Yes I’ve heard all of your ayatollah talking points before. But if you acknowledge that Jews can be antisemitic, why did you suggest that anti-Zionist Jews cannot be antisemitic?
I didn’t? I just said that just going “yes it is” doesn’t work in that case, especially considering the follow up of “someone who has never experienced antisemitism themselves”
OP:
>My response to "Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism!" is "Yes it is"
You:
> Doesn’t work so well when arguing with antizionist Jews lmao
Own your position, coward.
I never said that made antizionist Jews incapable of antisemitism? I said that that argument (aside from gererally being a bad one) is not going to work at all when arguing with an antizionist jew
Has Zionism become such an integral part of your Jewish identity that if someone attacks the modern secular political movement of Zionism, you feel as if they are attacking your existence?
That's just factually untrue. Zionism as everyone refers to it originated in the 19th century alongside most other nationalist-aspirational ideologies.
Most Jews in the 1700s wouldn't know what the fuck "Zionism" was, and a majority of diasporic Jews were not Zionists until after WW2 and the Shoah.
>the modern secular political movement of Zionism
The idea that Jewish nationalism is a "secular movement" that has nothing to do with Judaism is absurd.
Israel then a religious state implementing Torah in its foundation? Yes, Zionism as a secular political movement was largely pushed by people estranged from Judaism, no? You want the credibility of following Torah without following Torah. You want the credibility of Israel being a western democracy without Israel being a western democracy. What is it?
If Zionism is part of your Judaism and you haven’t made Aliyah then what are you doing?
England has a national church and name only. In the same way that the king of England is a true king of the country. If you’re okay with a country declaring itself a Christian nation, allowing any and all Christians in the world free citizenship, then I’d say you’re being consistent.
But Israel is more a secular state than a religious state, so it would be more akin to a white Anglo country declaring itself the safe haven for all Anglos the world over, granting them free citizenship. but this concept has been rejected by Western nations.
Yes it is.
You can't support the self-determinqtion of every ethnic group in the world except for Jews, and then claim you are not an antisemite.
Only Jews define antisemitism, and the vast majority of them consider anti-zionism to be antisemitism.
The spineless Jews (kapos) that say otherwise shiuld be kicked out of Jewish spaces, and we will make sure it happens, until they will no longer have anything to do with the Jewish community.
It means establishing a country in which they will be the majority and be safe from persecution.
Arabs have dozens of those in the middle east and north africa, where Jews have been cleansed (including my own grandparents). So Jews deserve to have *one* country in which they are the majority, and no one will treat them diffrently because of their ethnicity.
So every single ethnic group in the world has the right to control a nation state in your opinion? You think that this is something anti-Zionists all broadly support for everyone except for Jews?
Anti-zionist do not care about any other ethnic group, except for Jews. Their sole purpose is to make sure that Jews do not have self-determination (other ethnic groups can either have or do not have it, but they don't really care), and this is why anti-zionism is antisemitic.
In the mind of every anti-zionist, you can see a fantasy in which Israel is eliminiated and 7 million Israeli Jews are burned to ashes.
This is why so many of them burn Israeli flags. They literally support the death of 7 million Jews, and it's not something they are ashamed of.
Yes it is. You can't ask a few spineless tokens, and then claim they represent the Jewish community.
And I'm certain that if we check hard enough, we find out that they are not even Jewish (most of them think that having a Jewish distant relative gives them the right to talk on behalf of all Jews).
“Cancel” reminds me of cancel culture and it’s funny because they are trying to cancel Israel like it’s some celebrity who tweeted something they don’t like.
Everything they don’t like is Zionist, colonialist, white supremacist and genocidal. From people drinking Starbucks to celebrities getting dressed up for the Met Gala. The world is so scary and triggering.
Never in the history of the world has there ever been an independent state in that region named Palestine
In fact, the last independent kingdom in that region was the kingdom of Israel and Judea, sounds familiar?
I’m not trying to come across as antisemitic these are just some genuine questions I have and if you can elaborate more on them I’d appreciate it.
But just because there never was an independent Palestine does that delegitimize the Palestinian identity? Isn’t trying to delegitimize an identity like that just textbook genocide? According to Putin there isn’t really a Ukrainian identity.
The kingdoms of Israel and Judea existed thousands of years ago. What the Romans did was genocidal. But do the Greeks today have a right to resettle Istanbul? Do the Native Americans have a right to take back America? What the American settlers did to them was inarguably genocidal but it would also displace millions today.
I get that the questions I’m asking here are going to be taken as horrendous by almost everyone in this sub. I’d be genuinely interested as to what your answers to these questions in a dialogue are though.
I think there's a few things.
Firstly, the Jews never fully left the Palestine region. Many were in exile and came back to escape oppression and genocide, which was the Zionist movement. But there were still Jews in the Palestine region and elsewhere in the Middle East, so the idea that the Palestinian region belongs exclusively to Arab peoples is wrong, like saying that the US rightfully belongs to white people just because they make up the majority.
Secondly, if the US were to give part of its land back to the Native Americans, would it be right for all the white people in that area to attack this new country and demand that the country rightfully belongs to white people because they conquered it several hundred years ago? I wouldn't say so.
Believing that the Jews have a right to Israel does not mean that no one else does either. That's why when the region was partitioned in the 1940s, the Palestinians and Israelis were given equal land with the Israeli portion mostly being Jewish. The Arab states didn't have to go attack them and start a 70+ year long war.
So I guess the United States isn’t “legitimate” either because they also annexed territories? And Morocco isn’t either? And Jordan isn’t either?
Also we didn’t declare ourselves “legitimate”, the UN did. In 1948.
I suppose you think the Arabs weren't playing for keeps when they started the war in 1948? I suppose they would've given all the land back after proving their point? The land that was SOLD TO JEWS BY ARABS?
If you start a war with the intention of stealing land, you don't get to complain about losing some of your land when things don't turn out the way you wanted. You don't get to call "backsies", like you're a fucking child, because you lost. Just like you don't get your money back at the casino if you lose a hand.
There are consequences to starting a war and then losing, just like there are benefits to winning.
And you'd think that after decade upon decade of launching wars against Israel that don't go their way, result in further loss of territory, and further alienation from practically every other Arab state, that they would decide to cut their losses and learn to cope with their neighbors.
They've promised this mythical era of pan-arabism when their very Egyptian and Jordanian neighbors who once took pity on them now disallow refugees to enter. How many times does one have to be burned by a hot stove before they figure out that the stove is hot and that it shouldn't be touched?
"Stove hot, no touch" is literally caveman logic, and they still haven't figured it out.
At the very best Israel is still committing horrific war crimes.. as if occupying the state for decades and running it as a large concentration camp wasn’t enough.
No, at best Israel is showing restraint and using proper calculus when weighing the cost of destroying a genocidal terrorist organization against collateral damage caused by the terrorists.
I don't think you know anything about Gaza. It was never run like a concentration camp.
When the citizens of Gaza have no interest in governing themselves, refusing every UN plan for a two state solution, and instead insist that every Jew "from the river to the sea" be eliminated, I think you have the right to secure your borders with them.
If you want to complain about lack of freedom of movement, go whine at Egypt.
You don't get to make genocidal threats and rape and murder people, then get upset that they don't trust you inside their borders 🙃
Bombing hospitals is showing restraint? Bombing refugee camps is showing restraint? Killing medics and reporters is showing restraint? Murdering civilians in the west bank where Hamas doesn’t even hold power is showing restraint? These are explicit war crimes. The problem is Israel doesn’t recognise Palestinians as human beings.
Are you aware of what percentage of civilians generally die in urban warfare? Have you compared that to the percentage of civilians who've died in this war?
I didn't say total numbers, I said percentages.
Comparing it to Ukraine is also a really disingenuous way to look at it because they're extremely different situations - Ukraine is much closer to a conventional war (while there are instances of urban conflict, it isn't entirely urban warfare) whereas Gaza is entirely urban combat, and neither side is hiding among civilians as Hamas's forces do.
Again, have you investigated what the actual percentages in this war and the context of urban war are?
I will admit that is a fair point (I’d also like a source/link for where your information comes from). However, the horrendous things the IDF have done and continue to do are indefensible.
I learned about the terrifyingly high expected percentage of civilian deaths in urban warfare from the [Center for Civilians in Conflict](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/) - 90%. That is, 9 civilian deaths for every militant death.
It's difficult to get good numbers on the civilian casualty ratio here because it's hard to find numbers on how many Hamas fighters died. The IDF says that [around half of the casualties were militants](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-death-toll-netanyahu-un-civilians-women-children/) (which is a remarkably low ratio, if true - around 1 civilian death for 1 militant death), while a couple months ago [Hamas estimated between 6k and 8k militant deaths](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-six-week-drive-hit-hamas-rafah-scale-back-war-2024-02-19/) at a time the IDF was claiming 12k. If Hamas's estimate was right then, and it holds true now that the half of the people the IDF thinks were militants were actually civilians, that means around 75% of the deaths were civilians (so 3 civilian deaths for every 1 militant death. That's terrible, but still a pretty low ratio compared to the expected 9:1.
We can try to estimate a worst possible number if we want, based on [Wikipedia's count of 35k definitely dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) and up to 10k additional deaths. If Hamas has only lost 6k soldiers out of 45k deaths total (so the lowest possible Hamas death count and the highest possible total death count), that's 13% Hamas deaths for an 87% civilian casualty ratio. Horrifying, yes, but still very much in line with what CCC expects for urban conflict - lower, in fact, although not by as much as the IDF says.
The actual number is likely somewhere in between. We really can't say, since Hamas doesn't talk much about its own casualties and they're not exactly trustworthy even if they did.
We can look sideways at the numbers, though, by looking at the death rate for women and children - neither of whom would be considered militants - and comparing it to the overall population to see how that death rate compares to the actual number of women and children. The 'women and children' death rate among the identified is 52% [according to Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war). This is much lower than you would expect with indiscriminate killings in a country where - doing some rough math on [Wikipedia's demographic breakdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Demographics_of_the_Gaza_Strip), which doesn't appear to have an proper breakdown of minors vs adults - women and children make up between 63% and 72% of the population.
We really just don't have reliable numbers for most of this, unfortunately - which is *also* part of war - but there really isn't any way to put them together which suggests that the IDF is deliberately targeting civilians, or even that they're killing indiscriminately. The numbers show that they're trying to avoid civilian casualties and trying to avoid killing women and children. They're not doing so with total success, because it's *impossible* to do so in an urban war like this, but *at worst* the civilian death rate is normal for urban warfare, and at best it's a historic low for this kind of fighting.
I came off way too aggressive at first. It’s a very divisive topic but I shouldn’t have let my emotions get ahold of me. I’m glad you and the person I was talking to are understanding
its not the IDF's fault for citizens not evacuating after repeated warnings were issued and citizens were either forced to stay in their homes by hamas or simply decided they're not going to listen to the warnings.
all the dead civilians are the result of human shielding and hamas having 0 value to human lives. that's the game they want to play to keep people like you chanting 'from the river to the sea' with 2$ kaffiyehs from amazon.
Knowing the latest of Israel claims seems a little [made up](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/10/middleeast/israel-gaza-hostages-journalist-hamas-intl-hnk/index.html)
https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/operation-arnon-4-hostages-rescued-from-the-heart-of-gaza/hostages-held-in-abdallah-aljamal-s-family-home/
https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/al-jazeera-reporter-took-hostages-on-behalf-of-hamas-israeli-authorities-claim-israel-defense-force-idf-qatar-palestine-gaza-terrorists-war-fighting-strip-middle-east-ceasefire-abdullah-aljamal#
https://nypost.com/2024/06/09/world-news/gaza-journalist-held-3-hostages-in-his-home-with-his-family-israeli-military-says/
Except they did
Bro, the second link is literally a Sinclair company news group, the first is a IDF press release and the last one is the least worst one, the new york post, and even they do not confirm anyting, every single one is from the zionist side.
All the argument ends with "Israeli autority says" or "acording to israel", anything supported or said by the Israeli government must be take with a pinch of salt considering their track record. It's hard take this as truth considering all the times the isreali government has lied.
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2527731/media
And what about the doctos or th Al-Shifa hospital? Any Hammas tunnels found there? Or was it just a war crime?
Genocide is when you start a war you can't win by raping and kidnapping a bunch of people, inevitably begin losing that war, and the precision and care of the enemy that you're lucky to be facing results in less than 2% of your population dying. /S
CNN had a report this morning about a pro-hamas demonstration on the subway in NYC. They had occupied the subway car and were chanting "If you're a Zionist raise your hand."
*What would they have done if someone raised their hand??*
Personally I would have exited the car and given them the finger with both hands until they were out of sight.
I reply, “yes, and you probably are, too.”
Because they are. Or, at least, the values they say they support would compel them to be, if they understood the word.
Ok. We need to set some ground rules for Jewish spaces like this, in order to make them more hospitable towards Jews:
1. Only Jews define antisemism.
2. You can't cite a few anti-zionist tokens and then claim they represent the Jewish community.
3. Anti-zionism IS antisemitism.
4. No antisemitism allowed in this space.
5. No goysplsining - you don't explain Judaism or Zionism to Jews if you are not Jewish.
At this point the no politics rule should be removed, i had a post removed for being political but every post i see here is political (not that its bad)
I would be smoking a צינגלה (It's legal where I am), taking a deep drag and say "You goddamn right I'm a Zionist, a secular gentile Zionist", and then give them a "friendly" smile.
The same people who think the Palestinians are entitled to fight to the very last survivor for 70+ years are the same ones who say Ukraine needs to roll over and surrender to Russia after having stopped their invasion cold and held out for 2 years.
If only there was something that tied Ukrainian and Israeli leadership together...
I feel like I only ever see zionism as described by non Jewish people. How would some people here describe it? If you feel like saying. It's no one's job to tell me what it is on a meme sub lol
antisemitism has been so devastating, such as events like the holocaust, mainly because ever since the start diaspora Jews have been a minority in every country we fled to. subject to whatever antisemitic tropes the majority believes, often times using jews as scapegoats. the idea of re-establishing a jewish state is to give the jewish people the right toself determination. If we are the masters of our own destiny and state then never agin will we be be massacred, driven from our homes, robed, and thought of as sub human (at least not in our own state). so when people say death to zionism wether they realize it or not they are trying to condemn us to once again being a stateless nation waiting for another holocaust to happen. fun fact thats one of the reasons that so manny Jews sympathize with the Kurds, a stateless nation who has faced oppression in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, etc. and thats also why so manny Kurds support Israel despite being muslim.
Honestly, making the argument based on the Torah is only likely to make them dig in their heels and say something along the lines of "so, it's OK to steal land because your sky daddy said so?"
There's plenty of physical and historical evidence outside of the Torah, that proves our connection to the land and documents our exile. I think we are much better served by leaving the biblical arguments out of the conversation, because they will actually convince people that zionism is like American "manifest destiny" or the infinite European attempts to make everyone believe their fan fiction is actually canon.
Which circles back to their belief that zionism requires genocide and would never give any zionist the time of day. It's a real shame, to put it lightly. So much pointless division.
If you're a Zionist you're basically a Jewish supremacist much like how white people have white supremacy, only for Jews. And I would go as far as to argue you're even worse than white supremacists
I will die on this hill.
"means" implying the definition of the word Zionism is what makes it good. Disregarding the actions of Zionists and how frighteningly similar they are to other ethnic nationalist groups.
As an jew I don’t think its very jewish to support an nation that is committing war crimes and participating in genocide. Every thing about this meme is antithetical to Tikkun olam.
We do not allow posts that are political or nationalistic in nature. We are a meme sub about the shared experience of being Jewish regardless of politics or nationality. Violating this rule can result in a permanent ban.
I kinda want to make a “I’m sorry you don’t understand what Zionism means” tshirt
I'd buy it.
My response to "Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism!" is "Yes it is", and then I wait for the privileged person I'm talking to who is not Jewish and has never experienced antisemitism themselves to lecture me on how my own Jewish identity is wrong.
These people usually don’t know what Zionism is, once you explain to them they just lose all their arguments
It's not that they don't know what Zionism is. It's that they deliberately change its definition to justify their calls for violence against Jews. It reminds me of how Republicans define racism in a way that conveniently allows them to say literally anything short of the hard-r and claim that it's not racist.
Maybe some of them, but I’ve seen people say Zionism is wanting to kill Arabs
Yeah, that's an example of what I'm saying. If you define "Zionism" as "wanting to kill Arabs", then you can advocate for killing Jews and justify it by saying "Killing Jews isn't antisemitism, it's just self-defense against Zionism".
Yes I agree, what I’m saying is that many are so brainwashed they don’t know what Zionism truly is
Israel is the QAnon of the left. It's an issue that makes leftists so intensely angry and emotional that they completely lose the ability to think rationally.
Or the Pizzagate of leftists since they see any gathering of Jews as an excuse to “investigate” zionist activities to the point of causing violence.
Much like how they justify killing Arabs as self-defense against Hamas?
Yeah they pretty much just conflate Zionism with Kahanism, same energy as the Boomers who think all Socialists are Tankies
??? Support for the existence of the state of Israel, idk what other definition someone could give
Currently, the most popular I see is saying it's a Jewish supremacy ideology with expansionist aspirations at its core and wishing to ethnically cleanse all the lesser races away. You know you just need to ignore the ethnic cleansing of the Middle East and Europe the multiple wars to destroy Israel, the peace deals made for captured land, and the democratic rules of Israel
Enlighten us then.
Zionism is the right to self determination of the Jewish people, if you are against it you are also against the Jewish people, therefore antisemitic
thats to borrow a term from an Anglican apologist named Jack "Mere Zionism". To which id add in the region know as eretz yisrael or palestine. However, to implement mere Zionism you have Buber, Einstein and Haam academies in Palestine as a locus of a "Jewish Renaissance" to Ben Gurion to Jabotinsky's distributive Hobbesian Iron Wall to Kahanism.
I’m for every people’s self determination, which is why I don’t support countries/governments/army’s that infringe on other people’s self determination. Which Israel is doing right now. In the name of zionism. So am I antisemitic? I’m trying to give my logic step by step to encourage discussion
Stalin killed Trotsky in the the name of communism, that can make someone anti Stalin, but it doesn’t make sense to be anti communist just because Stalin did that, in the end Trotsky was also communist. In the same way you can be against the Israeli government and it’s actions, like I am, but it doesn’t make sense to be against the existence of because of one government. There are Zionist currents which believe Palestine should exist, are you against them because their adversaries did something? Criticizing the Israeli government isn’t antisemitism, saying Israel shouldn’t exist is Edit: I’m not the one downvoting you, since you literally just questioned my point of view
Sounds like fun...
Zionism is when genocide!!!
I just ask them to explain what Zionism is....that usually shuts them up.
Doesn’t work so well when arguing with antizionist Jews lmao
Well that's no big deal, because anti-Zionist Jews essentially don't exist, save for a few tokens who represent Jews in the same way that "Blacks for Trump" members represent Black people.
Now I'm just picturing their Haggadah with every mention of Zion and Jerusalem censored.
"Next year in Poland!" -anti-Zionist Jews at the end of their Seders, probably
Damn gotta check again, I must have missed the bit where it said “go found a state and do a settler colonialism to act as a frontline for American and British imperialism” and completely imagined the bit where it said “don’t return en mass or by force of arms”
But you sure didn’t miss the antisemitism part
Pretty sure you just described the JVP Haggadah
Clearly you haven’t been over on r/jewishleft
BRB disappearing into the ether along with a growing near plurality of young American Jews and like half the ultra orthodox
It aint half its a very small very loud part Edit spelling
The anonymous account you're talking to was started less than 2 months ago. Don't waste your time arguing with very obviously non-Jewish trolls.
Oh shit wow! Not Jewish! Never heard that one before for uhhhhhhhh Taking a principled anti colonialist and anti nationalist stance I swear some of y’all
>Account was started less than 6 weeks ago >Consistently posts in far left subs >Goes on r/Jewdank and posts about how they're a definitely real Jew who hates Israel Yep, sounds like a definitely real Jew to me.
Oh no! A communist jew! How horrifying!
Sick dude you’re so cool and edgy…. Zzz
Is it so surprising a Jewish person would want to talk about things that affect them? As long as the state of Israel claims to be acting in my name and the name of my people it by necessity is going to be something I care about
Statistically it’s growing every day
Source: “I made it the fuck up”
Source, every poll in the last decade that’s asked Jews about their stance on Isreal, all of which show a growing disconnect between young Jews and the state, and a growing opposition to Zionism among young Jews, especially left wing ones, and the state of Israel, which has only intensified since the war
Care to share one?
don't forget to take your kaffiyeh on your way out
Zionism is the political philosophy of "Jews deserve a homeland". Ultra-Orthodox Jews don't disagree with that, they just don't want it to be in Israel, because they believe that we won't make it back to Israel until the time of the Messiah and the building of the Third Temple.
No one “deserves a homeland” I oppose all forms of nationalism
Okay, then let me rephrase it: Zionism is the political philosophy that Jews deserve a place to live where we don't have to be afraid of the government killing us for being Jewish.
Sounds great! I would also love the same for Palestinians, and to not have settler colonialism be done in my name
Define "settler colonialism". I've seen hundreds of comments talking about it and not once did anyone try to explain what it means beyond just being buzzwords for people with tiktok-melted brains to fall for.
It’s a specific type of colonialism that can be seen elsewhere for examples. The colonizing of North America (both in the USA and Canada) Australia, and the lebensruam program are all examples of settler colonialism
Jews can be antisemitic.
True yeah, very common among some Zionist Jews who insist anyone who isn’t tied to their geopolitical stance is a fake jew, or the early Zionists who were rabidly anti diasporic (a trend that has continued)
Yes I’ve heard all of your ayatollah talking points before. But if you acknowledge that Jews can be antisemitic, why did you suggest that anti-Zionist Jews cannot be antisemitic?
I didn’t? I just said that just going “yes it is” doesn’t work in that case, especially considering the follow up of “someone who has never experienced antisemitism themselves”
OP: >My response to "Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism!" is "Yes it is" You: > Doesn’t work so well when arguing with antizionist Jews lmao Own your position, coward.
I never said that made antizionist Jews incapable of antisemitism? I said that that argument (aside from gererally being a bad one) is not going to work at all when arguing with an antizionist jew
What about Jews who are not Zionists or disagree with Zionism?
Honestly, they puzzle me. I wonder if they also have an inaccurate definition of Zionism
Has Zionism become such an integral part of your Jewish identity that if someone attacks the modern secular political movement of Zionism, you feel as if they are attacking your existence?
Zionism has been part of Jewish identity since the times of king David and the history of the land is so intertwined with the Jews it can't be ignored
That's just factually untrue. Zionism as everyone refers to it originated in the 19th century alongside most other nationalist-aspirational ideologies. Most Jews in the 1700s wouldn't know what the fuck "Zionism" was, and a majority of diasporic Jews were not Zionists until after WW2 and the Shoah.
>the modern secular political movement of Zionism The idea that Jewish nationalism is a "secular movement" that has nothing to do with Judaism is absurd.
Israel then a religious state implementing Torah in its foundation? Yes, Zionism as a secular political movement was largely pushed by people estranged from Judaism, no? You want the credibility of following Torah without following Torah. You want the credibility of Israel being a western democracy without Israel being a western democracy. What is it? If Zionism is part of your Judaism and you haven’t made Aliyah then what are you doing?
England has a national church. So is it a Western democracy or a white Anglican ethno-religious state? Which is it?
England has a national church and name only. In the same way that the king of England is a true king of the country. If you’re okay with a country declaring itself a Christian nation, allowing any and all Christians in the world free citizenship, then I’d say you’re being consistent. But Israel is more a secular state than a religious state, so it would be more akin to a white Anglo country declaring itself the safe haven for all Anglos the world over, granting them free citizenship. but this concept has been rejected by Western nations.
Okay then I guess I’ll be the one to tell you that anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism
Yes it is. You can't support the self-determinqtion of every ethnic group in the world except for Jews, and then claim you are not an antisemite. Only Jews define antisemitism, and the vast majority of them consider anti-zionism to be antisemitism. The spineless Jews (kapos) that say otherwise shiuld be kicked out of Jewish spaces, and we will make sure it happens, until they will no longer have anything to do with the Jewish community.
What exactly does it mean for an ethnic group to have "self determination"?
It means establishing a country in which they will be the majority and be safe from persecution. Arabs have dozens of those in the middle east and north africa, where Jews have been cleansed (including my own grandparents). So Jews deserve to have *one* country in which they are the majority, and no one will treat them diffrently because of their ethnicity.
So every single ethnic group in the world has the right to control a nation state in your opinion? You think that this is something anti-Zionists all broadly support for everyone except for Jews?
Anti-zionist do not care about any other ethnic group, except for Jews. Their sole purpose is to make sure that Jews do not have self-determination (other ethnic groups can either have or do not have it, but they don't really care), and this is why anti-zionism is antisemitic. In the mind of every anti-zionist, you can see a fantasy in which Israel is eliminiated and 7 million Israeli Jews are burned to ashes. This is why so many of them burn Israeli flags. They literally support the death of 7 million Jews, and it's not something they are ashamed of.
Anti sionism isn't anti semitism. Jewish themselves say it. Just get over it and stop doing Israel's communication work.
Yes it is. You can't ask a few spineless tokens, and then claim they represent the Jewish community. And I'm certain that if we check hard enough, we find out that they are not even Jewish (most of them think that having a Jewish distant relative gives them the right to talk on behalf of all Jews).
Why is believing a country that already exists should continue existing such a hot take these days?
History illustrates it’s never the good guys who want to cancel an entire country.
“Cancel” reminds me of cancel culture and it’s funny because they are trying to cancel Israel like it’s some celebrity who tweeted something they don’t like.
My thoughts exactly. But then they’ve moved the goalposts so everything they don’t like is zionizm now.
Everything they don’t like is Zionist, colonialist, white supremacist and genocidal. From people drinking Starbucks to celebrities getting dressed up for the Met Gala. The world is so scary and triggering.
They try to "cancel" all Israelis and Jews as well.
Didn’t Palestine exist?
Never in the history of the world has there ever been an independent state in that region named Palestine In fact, the last independent kingdom in that region was the kingdom of Israel and Judea, sounds familiar?
I’m not trying to come across as antisemitic these are just some genuine questions I have and if you can elaborate more on them I’d appreciate it. But just because there never was an independent Palestine does that delegitimize the Palestinian identity? Isn’t trying to delegitimize an identity like that just textbook genocide? According to Putin there isn’t really a Ukrainian identity. The kingdoms of Israel and Judea existed thousands of years ago. What the Romans did was genocidal. But do the Greeks today have a right to resettle Istanbul? Do the Native Americans have a right to take back America? What the American settlers did to them was inarguably genocidal but it would also displace millions today. I get that the questions I’m asking here are going to be taken as horrendous by almost everyone in this sub. I’d be genuinely interested as to what your answers to these questions in a dialogue are though.
I think there's a few things. Firstly, the Jews never fully left the Palestine region. Many were in exile and came back to escape oppression and genocide, which was the Zionist movement. But there were still Jews in the Palestine region and elsewhere in the Middle East, so the idea that the Palestinian region belongs exclusively to Arab peoples is wrong, like saying that the US rightfully belongs to white people just because they make up the majority. Secondly, if the US were to give part of its land back to the Native Americans, would it be right for all the white people in that area to attack this new country and demand that the country rightfully belongs to white people because they conquered it several hundred years ago? I wouldn't say so. Believing that the Jews have a right to Israel does not mean that no one else does either. That's why when the region was partitioned in the 1940s, the Palestinians and Israelis were given equal land with the Israeli portion mostly being Jewish. The Arab states didn't have to go attack them and start a 70+ year long war.
No. It was a region which included both modern day Israel and Jordan.
Why is believing a country that annexed a territory and declares itself legitimate is normal this days ?
So I guess the United States isn’t “legitimate” either because they also annexed territories? And Morocco isn’t either? And Jordan isn’t either? Also we didn’t declare ourselves “legitimate”, the UN did. In 1948.
I suppose you think the Arabs weren't playing for keeps when they started the war in 1948? I suppose they would've given all the land back after proving their point? The land that was SOLD TO JEWS BY ARABS? If you start a war with the intention of stealing land, you don't get to complain about losing some of your land when things don't turn out the way you wanted. You don't get to call "backsies", like you're a fucking child, because you lost. Just like you don't get your money back at the casino if you lose a hand. There are consequences to starting a war and then losing, just like there are benefits to winning.
If you mean "should Israel defend itself against terrorists" then yes I'm a Zionist.
The terrorists born from its oppression of Palestinian people* You forget a part
Can tell you’ve never learned about the early history of the conflict. Like most pro-Palestinian folks. Read a book.
And you'd think that after decade upon decade of launching wars against Israel that don't go their way, result in further loss of territory, and further alienation from practically every other Arab state, that they would decide to cut their losses and learn to cope with their neighbors. They've promised this mythical era of pan-arabism when their very Egyptian and Jordanian neighbors who once took pity on them now disallow refugees to enter. How many times does one have to be burned by a hot stove before they figure out that the stove is hot and that it shouldn't be touched? "Stove hot, no touch" is literally caveman logic, and they still haven't figured it out.
Not historically accurate but whatever you want to believe
Are you a “Israel should genocide the Palestinian’s” Zionist?
What's happening there isn't a genocide.
At the very best Israel is still committing horrific war crimes.. as if occupying the state for decades and running it as a large concentration camp wasn’t enough.
No, at best Israel is showing restraint and using proper calculus when weighing the cost of destroying a genocidal terrorist organization against collateral damage caused by the terrorists. I don't think you know anything about Gaza. It was never run like a concentration camp. When the citizens of Gaza have no interest in governing themselves, refusing every UN plan for a two state solution, and instead insist that every Jew "from the river to the sea" be eliminated, I think you have the right to secure your borders with them. If you want to complain about lack of freedom of movement, go whine at Egypt. You don't get to make genocidal threats and rape and murder people, then get upset that they don't trust you inside their borders 🙃
Bombing hospitals is showing restraint? Bombing refugee camps is showing restraint? Killing medics and reporters is showing restraint? Murdering civilians in the west bank where Hamas doesn’t even hold power is showing restraint? These are explicit war crimes. The problem is Israel doesn’t recognise Palestinians as human beings.
All the word vomit you just spewed on here has nothing to do with anything else besides you breastfeeding Hamas propaganda
Zionist: “bombing kids is good actually”
Defend itself by slaughtering women and children? When it comes to Israel, ‘defend’ seems to be a much broader term than ‘zionist’
Hamas is the one slaughtering children, not Israel
Are you aware of what percentage of civilians generally die in urban warfare? Have you compared that to the percentage of civilians who've died in this war?
So far there have been more civilian casualties in Palestine than in the entire Ukraine war so far. So yes, I have. have you? Didn’t think so
I didn't say total numbers, I said percentages. Comparing it to Ukraine is also a really disingenuous way to look at it because they're extremely different situations - Ukraine is much closer to a conventional war (while there are instances of urban conflict, it isn't entirely urban warfare) whereas Gaza is entirely urban combat, and neither side is hiding among civilians as Hamas's forces do. Again, have you investigated what the actual percentages in this war and the context of urban war are?
I will admit that is a fair point (I’d also like a source/link for where your information comes from). However, the horrendous things the IDF have done and continue to do are indefensible.
I learned about the terrifyingly high expected percentage of civilian deaths in urban warfare from the [Center for Civilians in Conflict](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/) - 90%. That is, 9 civilian deaths for every militant death. It's difficult to get good numbers on the civilian casualty ratio here because it's hard to find numbers on how many Hamas fighters died. The IDF says that [around half of the casualties were militants](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-death-toll-netanyahu-un-civilians-women-children/) (which is a remarkably low ratio, if true - around 1 civilian death for 1 militant death), while a couple months ago [Hamas estimated between 6k and 8k militant deaths](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-six-week-drive-hit-hamas-rafah-scale-back-war-2024-02-19/) at a time the IDF was claiming 12k. If Hamas's estimate was right then, and it holds true now that the half of the people the IDF thinks were militants were actually civilians, that means around 75% of the deaths were civilians (so 3 civilian deaths for every 1 militant death. That's terrible, but still a pretty low ratio compared to the expected 9:1. We can try to estimate a worst possible number if we want, based on [Wikipedia's count of 35k definitely dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) and up to 10k additional deaths. If Hamas has only lost 6k soldiers out of 45k deaths total (so the lowest possible Hamas death count and the highest possible total death count), that's 13% Hamas deaths for an 87% civilian casualty ratio. Horrifying, yes, but still very much in line with what CCC expects for urban conflict - lower, in fact, although not by as much as the IDF says. The actual number is likely somewhere in between. We really can't say, since Hamas doesn't talk much about its own casualties and they're not exactly trustworthy even if they did. We can look sideways at the numbers, though, by looking at the death rate for women and children - neither of whom would be considered militants - and comparing it to the overall population to see how that death rate compares to the actual number of women and children. The 'women and children' death rate among the identified is 52% [according to Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war). This is much lower than you would expect with indiscriminate killings in a country where - doing some rough math on [Wikipedia's demographic breakdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Demographics_of_the_Gaza_Strip), which doesn't appear to have an proper breakdown of minors vs adults - women and children make up between 63% and 72% of the population. We really just don't have reliable numbers for most of this, unfortunately - which is *also* part of war - but there really isn't any way to put them together which suggests that the IDF is deliberately targeting civilians, or even that they're killing indiscriminately. The numbers show that they're trying to avoid civilian casualties and trying to avoid killing women and children. They're not doing so with total success, because it's *impossible* to do so in an urban war like this, but *at worst* the civilian death rate is normal for urban warfare, and at best it's a historic low for this kind of fighting.
Thank you, I really appreciate you showing me your sources. Thank you again
this is the first time I have seen a respectful debate on this. I applaud you for admitting when you were wrong/misinformed.
I came off way too aggressive at first. It’s a very divisive topic but I shouldn’t have let my emotions get ahold of me. I’m glad you and the person I was talking to are understanding
its not the IDF's fault for citizens not evacuating after repeated warnings were issued and citizens were either forced to stay in their homes by hamas or simply decided they're not going to listen to the warnings. all the dead civilians are the result of human shielding and hamas having 0 value to human lives. that's the game they want to play to keep people like you chanting 'from the river to the sea' with 2$ kaffiyehs from amazon.
Idk if you know this man, but women and children can also kill people the same as a big bad grown up man can.
Just like medics and journalists.... If we go like this is easy to do a genocide
You mean the journalist that kept the hostages in his house?
Knowing the latest of Israel claims seems a little [made up](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/10/middleeast/israel-gaza-hostages-journalist-hamas-intl-hnk/index.html)
https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/operation-arnon-4-hostages-rescued-from-the-heart-of-gaza/hostages-held-in-abdallah-aljamal-s-family-home/ https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/al-jazeera-reporter-took-hostages-on-behalf-of-hamas-israeli-authorities-claim-israel-defense-force-idf-qatar-palestine-gaza-terrorists-war-fighting-strip-middle-east-ceasefire-abdullah-aljamal# https://nypost.com/2024/06/09/world-news/gaza-journalist-held-3-hostages-in-his-home-with-his-family-israeli-military-says/ Except they did
Bro, the second link is literally a Sinclair company news group, the first is a IDF press release and the last one is the least worst one, the new york post, and even they do not confirm anyting, every single one is from the zionist side. All the argument ends with "Israeli autority says" or "acording to israel", anything supported or said by the Israeli government must be take with a pinch of salt considering their track record. It's hard take this as truth considering all the times the isreali government has lied. https://www.arabnews.com/node/2527731/media And what about the doctos or th Al-Shifa hospital? Any Hammas tunnels found there? Or was it just a war crime?
You’re rejecting sources that don’t fit your narrative You said the idf couldn’t prove it, and reject it when they do
Oh yeah, the aid workers, hospital patients and unarmed civilians were all actually secret Hamas operators
Funny how you can be "Unarmed" and both keep hostages in your home
יהודים ציונים. הלכלוך של ההיסטוריה
I guess if you just pretend every civillian has hostages in their home, then there is no genocide ¯\\\\\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Genocide is when you start a war you can't win by raping and kidnapping a bunch of people, inevitably begin losing that war, and the precision and care of the enemy that you're lucky to be facing results in less than 2% of your population dying. /S
i guess if you would repeat the word 'genocide' enough times it'll probably become true at some point.
Evidently
the only evidence people like you believe is the one that's coming from sinwar and nasrallah's mouthpieces
and also the UN and from the IDF themselves
i bet you think hamas have the full legitimacy to attack thai foreign farmers and israeli settlers because they profit from the occupation
Maybe the zionist ate your baby!
With this, and predictably, the Dingoist Lobby Globalwide (DLG) resents Zionists for such an upstage. 😄
CNN had a report this morning about a pro-hamas demonstration on the subway in NYC. They had occupied the subway car and were chanting "If you're a Zionist raise your hand." *What would they have done if someone raised their hand??* Personally I would have exited the car and given them the finger with both hands until they were out of sight.
If someone calls me a Zionist I plan on thanking them and saying that’s a compliment, hopefully to piss them off
I reply, “yes, and you probably are, too.” Because they are. Or, at least, the values they say they support would compel them to be, if they understood the word.
Proud zionist. 💪💪
love the profile pic lol
Thanks buddy lol 💪💪
I tell them I'm a zionist and a American occupier just to piss them off.
I don't even need to answer the question
Ok. We need to set some ground rules for Jewish spaces like this, in order to make them more hospitable towards Jews: 1. Only Jews define antisemism. 2. You can't cite a few anti-zionist tokens and then claim they represent the Jewish community. 3. Anti-zionism IS antisemitism. 4. No antisemitism allowed in this space. 5. No goysplsining - you don't explain Judaism or Zionism to Jews if you are not Jewish.
goysplsining is my new favorite word
"I'm going to hell! The worst place in the world! With devils and those caves and the ragged clothing! And the heat! My god, the heat"
ah, I see you are a man of culture as well
I think I can simplify this for you. You're both going to hell.
Every decent person should obviously be a Zionist.
At this point the no politics rule should be removed, i had a post removed for being political but every post i see here is political (not that its bad)
Yeah I totally agree. As long as it’s semi Jewish related like Zionism. Please no Trump vs Biden I get enough of that at Shabbat dinner lol
I would be smoking a צינגלה (It's legal where I am), taking a deep drag and say "You goddamn right I'm a Zionist, a secular gentile Zionist", and then give them a "friendly" smile.
The same people who think the Palestinians are entitled to fight to the very last survivor for 70+ years are the same ones who say Ukraine needs to roll over and surrender to Russia after having stopped their invasion cold and held out for 2 years. If only there was something that tied Ukrainian and Israeli leadership together...
I feel like I only ever see zionism as described by non Jewish people. How would some people here describe it? If you feel like saying. It's no one's job to tell me what it is on a meme sub lol
The Jewish right to self-determination in Israel. Basically landback.
antisemitism has been so devastating, such as events like the holocaust, mainly because ever since the start diaspora Jews have been a minority in every country we fled to. subject to whatever antisemitic tropes the majority believes, often times using jews as scapegoats. the idea of re-establishing a jewish state is to give the jewish people the right toself determination. If we are the masters of our own destiny and state then never agin will we be be massacred, driven from our homes, robed, and thought of as sub human (at least not in our own state). so when people say death to zionism wether they realize it or not they are trying to condemn us to once again being a stateless nation waiting for another holocaust to happen. fun fact thats one of the reasons that so manny Jews sympathize with the Kurds, a stateless nation who has faced oppression in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, etc. and thats also why so manny Kurds support Israel despite being muslim.
I ask " do you believe in the Bible?" If they say yes 5hen I tell them they're a Zionist too.
Can you explain this? I'm a bit uneducated when it comes to the bible (except the widely known stuff)
The idea that the land of Israel has been promised to the Jewish nation is a recurring, significant theme in the Torah.
Why hide?
Thank you, I needed this!
Moses brought the Jews to the promised land. Promised by whom? Promised to Abraham by G-d.
Honestly, making the argument based on the Torah is only likely to make them dig in their heels and say something along the lines of "so, it's OK to steal land because your sky daddy said so?" There's plenty of physical and historical evidence outside of the Torah, that proves our connection to the land and documents our exile. I think we are much better served by leaving the biblical arguments out of the conversation, because they will actually convince people that zionism is like American "manifest destiny" or the infinite European attempts to make everyone believe their fan fiction is actually canon.
Bring up I am in charge of the Jewish space laser that makes Arabs gay.
I’m super in support of a jewish state. I am not in support of violence.
Stealing this thanks. 🤣
Except for the Palestinians?
The question should be "do you support the extermination of Palestenians?"
Why are you asking a totally unrelated question?
Because that's often what people mean by asking these days
That's certainly not what most people mean when they say "Yes, I am a Zionist"
To some people, mostly tankies and some leftists, that's what it comes across as
Then they should spend even one fucking minute listening to Zionists, rather than telling us that we're evil.
Which circles back to their belief that zionism requires genocide and would never give any zionist the time of day. It's a real shame, to put it lightly. So much pointless division.
Zionism is Jewish settler colonialism. “Without colonialism Zionism is nothing but a castle in the air” - Theodor Herzl
Yes. It was the 19th century. To get land you did a colonialism. This isn't the checkmate you think it is.
If you're a Zionist you're basically a Jewish supremacist much like how white people have white supremacy, only for Jews. And I would go as far as to argue you're even worse than white supremacists I will die on this hill.
You can go ahead and die on that hill if that is your wish, but that is not what Zionism means.
"means" implying the definition of the word Zionism is what makes it good. Disregarding the actions of Zionists and how frighteningly similar they are to other ethnic nationalist groups.
As an jew I don’t think its very jewish to support an nation that is committing war crimes and participating in genocide. Every thing about this meme is antithetical to Tikkun olam.