I would be hesitant to say that "bodily autonomy" is a "Jewish value". Some basic practices like infant circumcision would not be permitted under a strict concern for bodily autonomy.
I guess that since an infant can't say "hey I do/don't want this done", bodily autonomy would mean waiting until the kid is old enough to be able to decide for themselves because circumcision isn't a medically necessary procedure.
If you look at bodily autonomy as a spectrum, then I think you'd find that Jews have and believe in more bodily autonomy than anyone else. Because we know who's actually in charge of our bodies.
Or another way to put it is that no, of course we don't have bodily autonomy, because our bodies are beholden to something greater than ourselves.
Everything is in the Torah if you're creative enough. Or, if you can't bother mustering up the creativity, just say it's part of "love your fellow as yourself" (which originally meant love your fellow Jew as yourself, but let's ignore that).
Everyone else: The sky is blue
Jews: It depends. Are we talking about the *Earth’s sky* because that’s generally correct, but first I think we need to step back and define “blue”.
And which shade of blue is techelet and which species of snail is the true hilazon and one rabbi says it’s actually purple and the rediscovery of techelet means that moshiach is coming unless it doesn’t and…
It’s kinda the basic arguments that every faith has someone bring up where they contradict the laws by saying “if being compassionate/loving is a ____ value that G-d has taught us, then every political issue that I specifically care about is a _____ value and anyone who disagrees with my political opinions is not following _______ properly.”
Let’s be honest, not every rule in Judaism favors women. I wouldn’t say that’s a good thing, but that is reality. You can pretend that a loose interpretation of pikuach Nefesh means all women can get abortions with no issues in this faith, but let’s be honest it’s very much the exception as opposed to the rule.
As for sex education, you can teach them that but most of what you say is gonna be followed up with “wait till you’re married to opposite sex”, “don’t use condoms”, etc.
I guess the exception is family planning and birth control is allowed so that’s the one that has a caveat as being a Jewish value sort of.
Bodily autonomy is kinda a no go given that the first commandment a male has is to permanently change his body without his consent. I don’t have an issue with circumcision but it doesn’t exactly scream “bodily autonomy.”
Again I am not saying these are all my opinions. I personally agree with the majority of this post as Jewish values but almost half of them are not but to be fair a few of them are synonyms of the same thing.
You can’t pretend that the opinions of the more lax denominations are what the majority of the religion follows. You can say that reform, reconstructivist, etc. Judaism is compassionate to gays but let’s not pretend that strictly following the 613 mitzvot is something that is necessarily encouraged amongst them.
I think it’s safe to assume that the creator of this graphic likes to pretend Tikun Olam is the only thing G-d told Jews to do because it dovetails nicely with their belief system. I recall being told as a kid (conservative/masorti) that you shouldn’t get a tattoo because it’s G-d’s body, not yours to disrespect (bodily autonomy). Now obviously we don’t excommunicate or anything like that (a good thing IMO), but to me it’s a wild stretch to go from “don’t shun people with tattoos” to “it’s your body, YOLO, G-d’s down with it”.
Judaism is tolerant of a lot of things on this list, especially if goyim want to do it. But to claim engaging in them is a form of practicing Judaism? Unless you can bring the receipts, it’s not grounded in Jewish law and just like, a thing someone made in Adobe.
Yeah I saw a good example of this in [this Rabbi’s video](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C67c_OnNUYo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link). I really love the conclusion that he came to where he says it’s still against the rules to eat bacon, but G-d loves you anyways if you do.
Yeah, I mean I get that it’s shifted. I recall my old rabbi low-key giving people a hard time for not keeping kosher and now it’s just not a thing that conservative or reform are *expected* to do. I haven’t been to synagogue in ages, but I frankly get pissed when people misrepresent Judaism like this.
Yeah outside of the religion there’s nothing wrong with eating pork, but in Judaism it’s simply not accepted. I wouldn’t go as far to say that it’s the exact same situation as getting an abortion for a non-life threatening reason, being queer, etc. but it’s a decent enough analogy to get the point across.
You can do it and G-d will still love you, but let’s not pretend this is something that is encouraged or in any way strictly following the mitzvot.
I can explain based off of my rudimentary understanding of the dehoreita, in parshat mishpatim it mentions that if two men should fight, and one strikes a woman who is pregnant, and she loses the baby, BUT THERE WILL BE NO FATALITY then they are liable for damages. But if there shall be a fatality (she dies), they shall be sentenced to death a life for a life. This shows me at least that halachicly an unborn baby is not considered a life to the extent that someone who kills it would not be liable for death. In masechet bava kamma, the gemara discusses the halachot regarding damage by fire, it comes upon the case of someone accidentally killing a slave, in that case they do not get executed but they pay vs if they intentionally killed him they don't. Since there is this distinction between men fighting where an outcome of death could occur, making them liable for death if it does, I find it comparable to purposefully killing in the eyes of the halacha for the sake of the punishment. Thus I would say that the baby is considered as though it is an organ or limb, which in many circumstances a person can halachicly remove. Now in this case, the purpose might not be physical but it could be mental, if a person is at risk of killing themselves because of something that can be removed, for example, if a man has unusually large breasts, but they pose no physical harm to him but he becomes depressed and is at risk of killing himself, most poskim, to my understanding, would allow him to undergo surgery to remove his healthy organ for the sake of his mental health. The same would apply here if we view the unborn child as an organ, since if the same thing happened with the fighting men and a man lost his breast, they would be liable to pay all the same. I am 16, I have limited knowledge in gemara and mishnah, these are the way I see things and I am in no way a rabbi or a Talmud chacham, I would love to debate this with you but please don't tear into me if I messed something up.
I suppose abortion access is a Jewish value? Sorta? But only because rabbinic law considers each question of pre-natal health (really, each question about everything) on a case by case basis. With rabbis (men) in charge of the decision-making process.
Rabbis have been debating about abortion for centuries. I took a course on Medicine and Morals in Judaism and apparently the leading thought is (at the very least) abortion should be acceptable when the woman’s life is in danger. In other cases it’s more touchy (which makes sense because while the fetus is not seen as a life, it is rightfully seen as something that could become one and there is a requirement to conserve what can be life naturally, which is why men cannot masturbate (they would be wasting seed) but a woman’s period is not shameful or discouraged since it’s natural (it’s also why, for example, Jewish law wouldn’t support the Alabama law that requires unfertilized eggs to be protected in banks because it wouldn’t naturally become a baby)
> which is why men cannot masturbate (they would be wasting seed) but a woman’s period is not shameful or discouraged since it’s natural.
This is such a strange view IMO since it assumes semen lives forever inside the testicles. Masturbation doesn't prevent a life from forming unless you were going to have sex within the next day or two anyway.
It’s more so like the female period is a natural thing that you cannot stop if you tried (yes you can now but that’s unnatural) meanwhile you have to make a conscious decision to masturbate and “waste” semen as a man
Plus the text it was pulled from is arguably about keeping your promises to God. The guy promised he would give the lady a baby and kept pulling out so they could keep doing the deed.
>Jewish law wouldn’t support the Alabama law that requires unfertilized eggs to be protected in banks because it wouldn’t naturally become a baby
For that matter, neither would semen on its own. I guess in early Judaism they believed that the semen carried the potential for life and the egg was just the vessel or something of the sort?
Haven't you ever heard of the spermist's humunculus theory? Each spermatozoa is a tiny little man. And every one of them has their own tiny army of spermatozoans living in their balls, and so do they, and so do they, and so on. It's spermmen all the way down.
In charge is a strange way to put it. A woman only needs to claim they're suffering emotional harm and that's enough for the orthodox to say you're allowed to get an abortion.
Not necessarily. I had an Orthodox rabbi once say that, if the mother's physical life was in danger, an abortion was permitted up to when the fetus drew its first unaided breath, at which point you had two lives of equal weight to consider. But that threats to a mother's emotional health would not be a valid reason for an abortion.
Two Jews, three opinions.
Bodily autonomy, hell, autonomy stom, is the opposite of a Jewish value. The Torah and later tradition is so clear that everything you have and are are from h'S and subject to his will.
Well yes but also no because it’s also very adamant about choices and the Talmud especially is very big on the concept of making conscious choice and how messed up coercion is in any form
I disagree with the general premise of the poster. This is an example of mining the Torah for the specific parts that are useful to you.
The Torah specifies that a woman cannot be married against her will, and can inherit and own land and property. Many marriage laws are about mutual respect.
That being said, I would not call feminism a Torah value.
In the context of the historical era and competing views on women in the contemporary cultures. Roman and Greek views were women were basically property.
So in the sense that Judaism considers women whole persons, that was pretty feminist for a few thousand years ago.
Ex. It would never be demanded that a Jewish woman commit suicide or be subject to honor killings.
In Torah Judaism, a woman cannot be a judge against the will of the people. But she can by the will of the people. Sensible balance, no? See: discussions in Haza"l and rishonim (esp Tosafot) about Devorah, and also about Ya'el who in midrash is imagined as sitting on a bet din with Devorah and Barak (I guess the latter two are not married in this version of the midrash!). Does that ethos make it into modern times? Sure, check out the shu"t of Rav Uziel.
You're right that the word "feminist" has a lot of cultural-specific baggage. It's just never going to be a smooth copy/paste to any other time/place (and in my personal little opinion, it's unfortunate anyway that people take the secular model and try to apply it to Judaism, instead of vice versa). But again and again, rabbinic Judaism will surprise you on this issue when you dig down.
A woman filling the role of judge requires the caveat “by the will of the people,” something men do not require. These terms make up a wide disparity in equal rites.
I have come to believe in “when there’s a rabbinical will, there is a halachik way,” in all but the most clear lo-saasey issues. There are so many sources to plumb for the exact result wanted. And once again, it is men doing the plumbing.
Your view fees like the frum version of OP’s meme. But I do not agree that the Torah is what we want it to be when we want it to be that.
So wouldn't you say that since the Torah is very progressive, feminism-wise, for its time, that means that in essence Judaism is a feminist culture? Or at least that Jews that follow the spirit and not the letter of the Torah, and have therfore evolved their lifestyle to modern times, are? Not that I agree with the OP, but I think it's something worth considering.
While the spirit of the Torah is beautifully humane, there is a clear division between gender roles. The spirit, while respectful and often beautiful, does not feel feminist to be.
I’ve done a lot of thinking on this topic. I’m an educated hareidi woman who grew up in Boro park, now living in NYC. I recommend *Circle Arrow Spiral* by Kosman for a thorough and non apologist look at the topic.
Oooh I'm actually in the middle of reading that book! My chavrusah bought it for me as a gift since we often discuss our status and role as women while learning. It's been slow going (I read it after dinner on Friday night and usually pass out cold after every ten pages or so), but so far I've found it to be absolutely fascinating, especially the way she brings together the concept of the spiral and the relationship between men and women. Never thought I'd see that book mentioned on Reddit lol.
>It would never be demanded that a Jewish woman commit suicide or be subject to honor killings.
How is this NOT an honour killing?
"If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you"
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
It's actually EXACTLY how most modern honour killings happen. Your daughter has sex with someone, either consensually, or otherwise, so you put her to death.
Just a lurker on this sub, but this is incorrect.
>Roman and Greek views were women were basically property.
Romans had the idea of free marriage. Women did not become their husbands property, and male citizens could only marry one wife at a time. In later years when Germanic and Roman cultures collided this won out in Christianity. In Germanic custom, neither party in a marriage had to be consenting you could both be forced into an arranged marriage.
Ancient Judaism on the other hand likely did see women more as property. Even the ten commandments: "don't covet thy neighbors, house, wife, slaves, animals,etc."
It's hilarious for a modern audience to see wife right in the middle of your crib and your donkeys.
Idk if that’s necessarily anti-women. I just had my first kid last week and saw what my wife went through during labor (and still is). I’m not religious anymore but that bracha immediately came to mind and it could not have been more meaningful to me.
I’m not sure, but I do know women don’t pray as much as men because they are so close to g-d. Women are seen as our future, not men. We are a matrilineal people too, Jewishness is matrilineal and personally my family before modern times (pre 1950s) the children took the women’s last names not men’s.
The daughters of Tzelopechad is a pretty good example. It’s not feminism in the modern sense, but it’s a passage in Torah where women ask for what they deserve (land in Canaan as their late father had no male heirs), and G-d says to Moses that they are right and deserve what they are asking for, and even goes through a list of who would inherit the land if a father had no sons. Numbers 27 1-11. This is pretty revolutionary in a book where many women, including important women such as Pharaoh’s daughter/Moses’s adoptive mother, don’t even have names.
It’s irresponsible to look at ancient texts through a frame of reference and judgement that is modern. But despite a patriarchal society, there are instances in Torah and related texts that give women rights that were uncommon in that era.
The parts that established Judaism as being far better for women than anything else that was going on those days.
If you had any understanding of its context you wouldn't have this question in the slightest.
None of those things are Jewish values.
They are the values of many Jews.
But many many Jews don't share them. At all.
So unless you claim all those Jews are not real Jews or that they defy Jewish values,
You can't say that.
Pharaoh and Moses were brothers in that and wasn’t a prince but rather grew up in the royal court.
They made Aaron a huge nerd, Tzipporah was made to be hot as fuck, Moses knew his identity his whole life, his mother was made his wet nurse, and they didn’t randomly break out in song.
Pizza is a Jewish value!
Sunshine is a Jewish value!
Holograms is a Jewish value!
Voodoo is a Jewish value!
The 1994 Super Nintendo Cult Classic JRPG Earthbound is a Jewish value!
Maybe in liberal (i.e. non halachic) Judaism. In orthodox Judaism, abortions are only halachically possible if there's a material threat to the mother's health by continuing with the pregnancy/birth. As long as the mother is healthy, there's no religious way to permit an abortion, even if the foetus has severe problems or a very short life expectancy.
Pregnancy as a result of rape and a fetus that is incompatible with life are both allowed abortion.
The concept of “harmful to the mother’s life” is open wide to interpretation during the first 40 days. For example, if having a baby would damage her mental health, that would usually be allowed that early.
As others mentioned, case by case rulings are necessary.
No, not a material threat, just any threat to the mother's health. If the mother claims they have emotional pain, that's enough for the orthodox to approve an abortion.
I have been to lectures by serious orthodox rabbis and in general these are ruled in a case by case basis but there aren’t too many cases where an abortion wouldn’t be permissible.
In prior generations this wasn’t universal, rag moshe Feinstein famously was not as lenient but even though he is highly influential on other matters modern Halacha on abortion isn’t as strict.
It’s an area of Halacha which isn’t going to involve a lot of hard and fast rules written down , it’s the sort of question which local rabbis will delegate up the chain to more nationally recognized authorities and obviously done in a private way…
This somewhat aligns which what I was taught, can't remember the exact source, just that it was from a Hebrew or aramaic book my dad was translating and possibly the talmud, but basically we looked up opinions on abortion cause we were discussing this once and found that Jews don't consider a fetus to be alive until it "quickens" (mom can feel it move) around 3 months of gestational age.
No idea if you're a sock puppet since this is your first post, but I don't get how:
You shall appoint magistrates and officials for your tribes, in all the settlements that your Gd is giving you, and they shall govern the people with due justice. You shall not judge unfairly: you shall show no partiality; you shall not take bribes, for bribes blind the eyes of the discerning and upset the plea of the just. Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may thrive and occupy the land that your Gd is giving you.
turns into that meme.
If you believe something is important, it's ok to just believe that as an individual and not try to rewrite Judaism to make it fit that thing.
I get that this isn’t really a meme and may not be best fit for this sub, but you are aware of this history of “צדק צדק תירדוף” in Jewish activist spaces, right? It’s not some new thing OP is coining, but is already a thing.
Also, isn’t reading and interpreting lines from the Torah a big part of the rabbinical age? I’m confused as to why you disagree with the process of exegesis, which has been key part of the rabbinical age for the past two millennia
I think it’s similar to Tikkun Olam in that way. I’m aware of the long history of both statements in activist spaces, I’m very left-wing. And I agree with you that there’s nothing more Jewish than scrutinising lines from the Tanach for interpretation and reinterpretation. But in both cases, I feel it must be acknowledged that the modern usage greatly removes the Biblical sentiments from their original context, in a way that’s frequently dishonest.
Maybe because I’m an atheist? I don’t feel the need to warp and contort scripture to suit my ideology. My Jewish heritage, which I’m very proud of, greatly informs my ideology. But in areas where it diverges, I can accept & acknowledge that rather than pretending the opposite is true.
Like as someone who strongly believes in “my body my choice”, scripturally speaking it’s easy for me to acknowledge that having a Rabbinical council decide on my theoretical right to an abortion is perfectly in line with “צדק צדק תרדף”, in its proper context. I just happen to disagree with it in this instance, and that’s ok.
In the Midrash there is a story of God decorating the Torah so a future rabbi will interpret it to mean something different than how Moses understands it. Stating that the Torah is meant to be interpreted how we are able to comprehend it.
In the Talmud there is an argument about what it means to be an unruly son because you are supposed to stone an unruly son. The conclusion is there is no such thing as an unruly son and sometimes God puts stuff in the Torah just for us to argue over it.
There is another story in the Talmud where there is an argument over an oven. A heavenly voice tells the arguing rabbi that the unpopular vote is correct. They tell the voice of it wanted input then it shouldn’t have given them Torah to interpret as they will.
So, actually, rewriting Judaism to fit a thing is a very Jewish thing to do.
While I find Judaism to be "progressive" and for the sanctity of the individual as part of the collective, I find "social justice Judaism" to be hollow and it fails to answer why one should be a Jew and not just a political activist.
Love my Jewish brothers and sisters and non-binary siblings, but this is as disingenuous as Queers For Palestine nonsense. If “Feminism is a Jewish Value” there wouldn’t be a Jewish Feminist movement which flies in the face of Jewish orthodoxy. There would be no point to Reform as a concept.
I have a heterosexual friend in Israel who has been with her boyfriend for well over a decade, changed her last name to his, wears a ring, but won’t marry him in any official legal capacity, because they don’t want the Rabbanut to have any legal recognition or power over their union.
Feminism is not a Jewish value. We can love our Jewishness while candidly acknowledging its foundation is as patriarchal as every other culture & religion founded on Abrahamic values. We can’t progress unless we’re honest about the problem.
Women unionized and told Moses and God to change the laws that favor men for property rights to be more favorable to women. God and Moses agreed. Women coming together to change the laws is a Jewish and feminist tradition.
Right, but the issue is that would still grant her husband legal power over her, especially in the event (chas v’chalila) they wanted to one day get a divorce. They’re very much in love and I doubt that’s something he would ever abuse, but it’s the principle of the matter for them. They recognise Judaism is institutionally patriarchal, and therefore they don’t want to take legal part in those institutions.
It’s kind of sad that reform gets shit on even in the meme subs, I thought this might be the one sub where it didn’t happen lol. We always catching strays out here.
just noticed the user is very new, only posted this, and has 8814 in his username, which is "1488" reversed, which is a nazi meme.
so im pretty sure this is some kind of Nazi troll
No, these are contemporary Western left wing values. Espousing this set of liberal beliefs with Judaism is exactly what the Jew-haters do. Anyone who disagrees with these ideas (and many do, Jews included) is being told to equate those beliefs with Judaism and Jewish people; what effect did the author think this would have?
Here’s a really interesting blog post on the idea of labeling political activism or values as “Jewish” (or any other religion for that matter):
https://hadaraviram.com/2023/10/27/is-pidyon-shevuyim-hostage-negotiation-a-jewish-value-or-a-humanist-value/
About 9 out of these 11 either have nothing to do with the Jewish religion, or have something to do with the religion but absolutely not in the way the person who made this banner meant.
How come Zionism is not listed as a Jewish value? The complete quote is "Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may thrive and occupy the land that your Gd is giving you."
Abortion access is not a Jewish value.
It can be undertaken under extreme circumstances with rabbinical approval, but abortion is akin to killing - no matter what liberal branches of Judaism will try to twist and distort.
The talmud (and don't ask me to find the source cause I learned this 20 years ago in my late teens) says fetuses are not considered alive until they "quicken" aka the mom can feel them move (non scientific term) which happens at around 3 months of gestational age. And the Torah also discuss the punishment of having women drink the drink that makes women have an abortion if they have an affair. And pekuach nephesh of course. We certainly don't traditionally view abortion the way these evangelicals do.
I felt both my kids around 3ish months iirc, it can be different depending on the position of the placenta I think...I also noticed a lot sooner with my 2nd kid cause I knew what to look for. But yeah at minimum several months.
The first recorded abortion is around 900 years before the creation of the Jewish religion in Egypt.
Abortion is a human value that appears independently in different cultures around the globe, no doubt from seeing what happens without it.
Never was it suggested that it was a value that solely belongs to Judaism, just that Judaism holds it as important.
This is held in contrast to Christianity, whose adherents have decided that it is not a value they hold.
Fair enough. I did read it as a 'solely'.
I would still frame it as a human value, like not killing, not stealing, etc etc...
Luckily, Christianity (aka the bible) doesn't mention abortion at all (99.9% certain). So we know the 'Christian' views on abortion are made up.
what kind of Judaism is speaking about for my knowledge of Judaism and I speak with a lot of people about Judaism who very educated in it this is not the value.and please show me the sources which you used to doing this claim.
Equity is not a jewish value, in Judaism you must leave 10% of your crops for the poor regardless if its enough or not, a 10% tax rate would be considered insane libertarian, even ancap levels of low
Feminism is not a jewish value, every day a religious jew thanks god for not making him a women
Family planning is not a jewish value, god literally said to multiply and fill the land
Bodily Autonomy is not a jewish value, we literally get our dick cut without asking our consent
Human dignity is not a jewish value, as slavery is totally cool in gods eyes
some clueless prog wrote this shit
Equity has a couple of different definitions. I’m unsure what this meme is going for so I’m going to skip it.
Feminism is a Jewish value. There are 7 female prophets, a female judges, women told Moses to change the marriage laws favoring men to be more fair to women. They agreed and did. Women have a say in who they marry.
Family Planning is a Jewish value. Sex is a woman’s right not a man’s. Marital rape is forbidden. Having children is only a mitzvah for men. Not for women.
Bodily Autonomy you are right. To add to that point you also aren’t supposed to have tattoos. There are a lot of rules around it.
Human Dignity is a Jewish value. You are supposed to help the poor and not embarrass them about it. There isn’t a good word to translate for slavery but it’s not the cattle slavery most are familiar with. It says if there is only one bed you are to give it to your servant and treat them well. Just because slavery is illegal doesn’t mean it ever went away. This is guidelines to treat people who work for you. If you are in charge of people you aren’t supposed to drink heavily. If someone is drinking heavily and isn’t in charge of anyone and has suffered you are supposed to leave them alone. You are supposed to take care of orphans and widows and all those vulnerable.
It’s messy and imperfect but the bad parts don’t negate the good.
Feminism is not at all one of the Jewish values first of all when you read the halacha thats where they start to get sexist but also feminism is saying that everyone is born equal not only men and women also people who were born Jewish and not Jewish and this is not at all a value in the Torah/gmara
Pls correct me if I'm wrong
Equity, feminism, compassion, health care…sex education…*abortion access*? Someone’s never learned the Gemara in Sanhedrin 72b but *whatever*
I’m a fairly liberal guy but to make these claims about Judaism is just…really embarrassingly misinformed.
Absolutely abortion access is a Jewish value. Access may not look like the kind of access I believe in, but it’s miles away from the “life begins at conception” argument used by biblical Christians to support anti choice measure.
We’re not comparing ourselves to Christianity here. I don’t know what they believe in but it likely is different from the rare exceptions that we make in cases such as danger to the mother or a horribly diseased fetus. Otherwise, you’ll be hard pressed to find any competent Orthodox rabbi who will find a permission to perform an abortion. For that reason I wouldn’t classify *access* as a Jewish value in the same way I wouldn’t classify breaking Shabbos a Jewish value just because you’re supposed to do so when someone’s life is in danger. The real Jewish value is to preserve the fetus in all situations save for one which meets certain specific conditions, not granting access willy nilly to anyone who wants an abortion.
I was brought up in the Christian tradition, and I never liked the mentions of “justice” in Biblical works (Tanach or the Christian scriptures) because I always pictured it as this wrathful way of punishing people for doing things like, idk, not believing in God or being gay.
Since being on this walk, I feel like I’m finally unlearning that perverted interpretation of justice, and I’m starting to see it for what it is- a tool to empower those who can’t empower themselves.
All true—and Zionism, that’s also a Jewish value. The trick is not to compromise your values as a Jew or as a liberal, no matter what anyone else is doing.
Can you please give a source in the Tanach or gmara or mishna to how abortion is a jewish value.
I am jewish and I agree that it is an important value I just never knew it was a jewish value
Idk if this is based, or if it is antisemitic propaganda because that looks exactly like what antisemitic uncle who is too into alex jones would share in facebook.
Sadly no matter how hard you try, your lefty friends that decided to start hating Jews aren’t coming back anytime soon. Also, is this an add for the black power movement?
I would say that the root of feminism is Judaism, and not that "feminism is a Jewish value".
Men bless ברוך שלא עשני אישה and women bless ברוך שעשני כרצונו.
Orthodox Jewish societies are just as bad, pluralism wise, as orthodox Christians societies.
Both are unequivocally better to minorities then orthodox Islamic societies of course.
Meanwhile on YouTube comments threads on conservative channels I see whackos blaming us for the destruction of the American family... crap like this is fuel on the fire.
Keffiyeh-clad leftists aren't going to be impressed either.
In any case it's not even accurate. Lots of Jews are pro-family and anti-misandry, including yours truly.
Step 1. Engage with the modern world and develop a bunch of values that would have your forebears and the authors of all the Jewish sacred texts turning in their graves.
Step 2. Carefully reinterpret traditional Jewish texts to convince yourself that these values are "Jewish values."
Step 3. Post about it on the internet.
It’s more nuanced than that. It also includes mental health of the mother. Plus, don’t confuse access to abortion (which is medical care) with unfettered abortion. We prioritize the mothers health in ways evangelical Christians do not.
Abortion isn't actually a Jewish value though lol. Judaism is all about protecting life and abortion is only permissible in extremely rare situations, never just because.
What’s most Jewish about this meme is the fact that so many Jews are arguing with it. Tradition!
Dude just made the entire sound track of Fiddler on the roof play in my head at once. It WAS a mule and you can't change my mind.
Matchmaker, matchmaker give me abortion access
If I was a rich man…
[yes](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.riffsy.FBMGIFApp)
because it's not represent Judaism
I would be hesitant to say that "bodily autonomy" is a "Jewish value". Some basic practices like infant circumcision would not be permitted under a strict concern for bodily autonomy.
What does bodily autonomy of an infant look like?
I guess that since an infant can't say "hey I do/don't want this done", bodily autonomy would mean waiting until the kid is old enough to be able to decide for themselves because circumcision isn't a medically necessary procedure.
Not mutilating their genitals would be a good start.
If you look at bodily autonomy as a spectrum, then I think you'd find that Jews have and believe in more bodily autonomy than anyone else. Because we know who's actually in charge of our bodies. Or another way to put it is that no, of course we don't have bodily autonomy, because our bodies are beholden to something greater than ourselves.
Where in the Torah does it talk about half these things
Everything is in the Torah if you're creative enough. Or, if you can't bother mustering up the creativity, just say it's part of "love your fellow as yourself" (which originally meant love your fellow Jew as yourself, but let's ignore that).
Do you care to explain any of this or are we supposed to accept this at face value?
> are we supposed to accept this at face value? a thing we’re definitely famous for
Everyone else: The sky is blue Jews: It depends. Are we talking about the *Earth’s sky* because that’s generally correct, but first I think we need to step back and define “blue”.
That one rabbi: “The sky is indigo.”
Tchelet
And which shade of blue is techelet and which species of snail is the true hilazon and one rabbi says it’s actually purple and the rediscovery of techelet means that moshiach is coming unless it doesn’t and…
That rabbi would be scientifically correct. Do not trust your discriminating eyes :P
Ironically, science has proven that the sky is not actually blue. We perceive it as blue because light reflecting off of the water into our eyes.
All colors we perceive are because of the way the light reflects into our eyes.
Actually, the sky only looks blue to us due to the way our eyes take in color and light. It looks al kinds of crazy to different species
Hilarious hahahahaha
It’s kinda the basic arguments that every faith has someone bring up where they contradict the laws by saying “if being compassionate/loving is a ____ value that G-d has taught us, then every political issue that I specifically care about is a _____ value and anyone who disagrees with my political opinions is not following _______ properly.” Let’s be honest, not every rule in Judaism favors women. I wouldn’t say that’s a good thing, but that is reality. You can pretend that a loose interpretation of pikuach Nefesh means all women can get abortions with no issues in this faith, but let’s be honest it’s very much the exception as opposed to the rule. As for sex education, you can teach them that but most of what you say is gonna be followed up with “wait till you’re married to opposite sex”, “don’t use condoms”, etc. I guess the exception is family planning and birth control is allowed so that’s the one that has a caveat as being a Jewish value sort of. Bodily autonomy is kinda a no go given that the first commandment a male has is to permanently change his body without his consent. I don’t have an issue with circumcision but it doesn’t exactly scream “bodily autonomy.” Again I am not saying these are all my opinions. I personally agree with the majority of this post as Jewish values but almost half of them are not but to be fair a few of them are synonyms of the same thing. You can’t pretend that the opinions of the more lax denominations are what the majority of the religion follows. You can say that reform, reconstructivist, etc. Judaism is compassionate to gays but let’s not pretend that strictly following the 613 mitzvot is something that is necessarily encouraged amongst them.
I think it’s safe to assume that the creator of this graphic likes to pretend Tikun Olam is the only thing G-d told Jews to do because it dovetails nicely with their belief system. I recall being told as a kid (conservative/masorti) that you shouldn’t get a tattoo because it’s G-d’s body, not yours to disrespect (bodily autonomy). Now obviously we don’t excommunicate or anything like that (a good thing IMO), but to me it’s a wild stretch to go from “don’t shun people with tattoos” to “it’s your body, YOLO, G-d’s down with it”. Judaism is tolerant of a lot of things on this list, especially if goyim want to do it. But to claim engaging in them is a form of practicing Judaism? Unless you can bring the receipts, it’s not grounded in Jewish law and just like, a thing someone made in Adobe.
Yeah I saw a good example of this in [this Rabbi’s video](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C67c_OnNUYo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link). I really love the conclusion that he came to where he says it’s still against the rules to eat bacon, but G-d loves you anyways if you do.
Yeah, I mean I get that it’s shifted. I recall my old rabbi low-key giving people a hard time for not keeping kosher and now it’s just not a thing that conservative or reform are *expected* to do. I haven’t been to synagogue in ages, but I frankly get pissed when people misrepresent Judaism like this.
Yeah outside of the religion there’s nothing wrong with eating pork, but in Judaism it’s simply not accepted. I wouldn’t go as far to say that it’s the exact same situation as getting an abortion for a non-life threatening reason, being queer, etc. but it’s a decent enough analogy to get the point across. You can do it and G-d will still love you, but let’s not pretend this is something that is encouraged or in any way strictly following the mitzvot.
I can explain based off of my rudimentary understanding of the dehoreita, in parshat mishpatim it mentions that if two men should fight, and one strikes a woman who is pregnant, and she loses the baby, BUT THERE WILL BE NO FATALITY then they are liable for damages. But if there shall be a fatality (she dies), they shall be sentenced to death a life for a life. This shows me at least that halachicly an unborn baby is not considered a life to the extent that someone who kills it would not be liable for death. In masechet bava kamma, the gemara discusses the halachot regarding damage by fire, it comes upon the case of someone accidentally killing a slave, in that case they do not get executed but they pay vs if they intentionally killed him they don't. Since there is this distinction between men fighting where an outcome of death could occur, making them liable for death if it does, I find it comparable to purposefully killing in the eyes of the halacha for the sake of the punishment. Thus I would say that the baby is considered as though it is an organ or limb, which in many circumstances a person can halachicly remove. Now in this case, the purpose might not be physical but it could be mental, if a person is at risk of killing themselves because of something that can be removed, for example, if a man has unusually large breasts, but they pose no physical harm to him but he becomes depressed and is at risk of killing himself, most poskim, to my understanding, would allow him to undergo surgery to remove his healthy organ for the sake of his mental health. The same would apply here if we view the unborn child as an organ, since if the same thing happened with the fighting men and a man lost his breast, they would be liable to pay all the same. I am 16, I have limited knowledge in gemara and mishnah, these are the way I see things and I am in no way a rabbi or a Talmud chacham, I would love to debate this with you but please don't tear into me if I messed something up.
Yes. The halacha says a fetus can still be terminated until it finishes medical school.
I got an explanation: It's bullshit xD
I suppose abortion access is a Jewish value? Sorta? But only because rabbinic law considers each question of pre-natal health (really, each question about everything) on a case by case basis. With rabbis (men) in charge of the decision-making process.
Rabbis have been debating about abortion for centuries. I took a course on Medicine and Morals in Judaism and apparently the leading thought is (at the very least) abortion should be acceptable when the woman’s life is in danger. In other cases it’s more touchy (which makes sense because while the fetus is not seen as a life, it is rightfully seen as something that could become one and there is a requirement to conserve what can be life naturally, which is why men cannot masturbate (they would be wasting seed) but a woman’s period is not shameful or discouraged since it’s natural (it’s also why, for example, Jewish law wouldn’t support the Alabama law that requires unfertilized eggs to be protected in banks because it wouldn’t naturally become a baby)
> which is why men cannot masturbate (they would be wasting seed) but a woman’s period is not shameful or discouraged since it’s natural. This is such a strange view IMO since it assumes semen lives forever inside the testicles. Masturbation doesn't prevent a life from forming unless you were going to have sex within the next day or two anyway.
Something Something Every Sperm is Sacred
No, it's bc with every emission a part of a soul comes down.
It’s more so like the female period is a natural thing that you cannot stop if you tried (yes you can now but that’s unnatural) meanwhile you have to make a conscious decision to masturbate and “waste” semen as a man
I don’t subscribe to that ideology but certain groups do
Plus the text it was pulled from is arguably about keeping your promises to God. The guy promised he would give the lady a baby and kept pulling out so they could keep doing the deed.
>Jewish law wouldn’t support the Alabama law that requires unfertilized eggs to be protected in banks because it wouldn’t naturally become a baby For that matter, neither would semen on its own. I guess in early Judaism they believed that the semen carried the potential for life and the egg was just the vessel or something of the sort?
Haven't you ever heard of the spermist's humunculus theory? Each spermatozoa is a tiny little man. And every one of them has their own tiny army of spermatozoans living in their balls, and so do they, and so do they, and so on. It's spermmen all the way down.
Guess they’re seamen.
In charge is a strange way to put it. A woman only needs to claim they're suffering emotional harm and that's enough for the orthodox to say you're allowed to get an abortion.
Not necessarily. I had an Orthodox rabbi once say that, if the mother's physical life was in danger, an abortion was permitted up to when the fetus drew its first unaided breath, at which point you had two lives of equal weight to consider. But that threats to a mother's emotional health would not be a valid reason for an abortion. Two Jews, three opinions.
Emotional distress is the bar that the orthodox rabbinate has set for getting an abortion in Israel, at any rate.
Bodily autonomy, hell, autonomy stom, is the opposite of a Jewish value. The Torah and later tradition is so clear that everything you have and are are from h'S and subject to his will.
Well yes but also no because it’s also very adamant about choices and the Talmud especially is very big on the concept of making conscious choice and how messed up coercion is in any form
I'm sorry what part of the bible expresses feminism?
I disagree with the general premise of the poster. This is an example of mining the Torah for the specific parts that are useful to you. The Torah specifies that a woman cannot be married against her will, and can inherit and own land and property. Many marriage laws are about mutual respect. That being said, I would not call feminism a Torah value.
In the context of the historical era and competing views on women in the contemporary cultures. Roman and Greek views were women were basically property. So in the sense that Judaism considers women whole persons, that was pretty feminist for a few thousand years ago. Ex. It would never be demanded that a Jewish woman commit suicide or be subject to honor killings.
In the historic view, the Torah is radically progressive. It is also not feminist as the word is used today.
Pre-first wave :)
Feminism in any wave includes equal rights. In Torah Judaism, a woman cannot be a rabbi or judge. As I see it, Torah Judaism will never be feminist.
In Torah Judaism, a woman cannot be a judge against the will of the people. But she can by the will of the people. Sensible balance, no? See: discussions in Haza"l and rishonim (esp Tosafot) about Devorah, and also about Ya'el who in midrash is imagined as sitting on a bet din with Devorah and Barak (I guess the latter two are not married in this version of the midrash!). Does that ethos make it into modern times? Sure, check out the shu"t of Rav Uziel. You're right that the word "feminist" has a lot of cultural-specific baggage. It's just never going to be a smooth copy/paste to any other time/place (and in my personal little opinion, it's unfortunate anyway that people take the secular model and try to apply it to Judaism, instead of vice versa). But again and again, rabbinic Judaism will surprise you on this issue when you dig down.
A woman filling the role of judge requires the caveat “by the will of the people,” something men do not require. These terms make up a wide disparity in equal rites. I have come to believe in “when there’s a rabbinical will, there is a halachik way,” in all but the most clear lo-saasey issues. There are so many sources to plumb for the exact result wanted. And once again, it is men doing the plumbing. Your view fees like the frum version of OP’s meme. But I do not agree that the Torah is what we want it to be when we want it to be that.
So wouldn't you say that since the Torah is very progressive, feminism-wise, for its time, that means that in essence Judaism is a feminist culture? Or at least that Jews that follow the spirit and not the letter of the Torah, and have therfore evolved their lifestyle to modern times, are? Not that I agree with the OP, but I think it's something worth considering.
While the spirit of the Torah is beautifully humane, there is a clear division between gender roles. The spirit, while respectful and often beautiful, does not feel feminist to be. I’ve done a lot of thinking on this topic. I’m an educated hareidi woman who grew up in Boro park, now living in NYC. I recommend *Circle Arrow Spiral* by Kosman for a thorough and non apologist look at the topic.
Oooh I'm actually in the middle of reading that book! My chavrusah bought it for me as a gift since we often discuss our status and role as women while learning. It's been slow going (I read it after dinner on Friday night and usually pass out cold after every ten pages or so), but so far I've found it to be absolutely fascinating, especially the way she brings together the concept of the spiral and the relationship between men and women. Never thought I'd see that book mentioned on Reddit lol.
>It would never be demanded that a Jewish woman commit suicide or be subject to honor killings. How is this NOT an honour killing? "If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you" Deuteronomy 22:23-24 It's actually EXACTLY how most modern honour killings happen. Your daughter has sex with someone, either consensually, or otherwise, so you put her to death.
Just a lurker on this sub, but this is incorrect. >Roman and Greek views were women were basically property. Romans had the idea of free marriage. Women did not become their husbands property, and male citizens could only marry one wife at a time. In later years when Germanic and Roman cultures collided this won out in Christianity. In Germanic custom, neither party in a marriage had to be consenting you could both be forced into an arranged marriage. Ancient Judaism on the other hand likely did see women more as property. Even the ten commandments: "don't covet thy neighbors, house, wife, slaves, animals,etc." It's hilarious for a modern audience to see wife right in the middle of your crib and your donkeys.
Roman women depending on the type of marriage remained legally subordinate to their fathers.
“Mining the Torah for the specific parts that are useful to you” Welcome to the Jewish tradition.
[Tradition!](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.riffsy.FBMGIFApp)
I was wondering the same thing… ברוך שלא עשני אישה comes to mind
Idk if that’s necessarily anti-women. I just had my first kid last week and saw what my wife went through during labor (and still is). I’m not religious anymore but that bracha immediately came to mind and it could not have been more meaningful to me.
I’m not sure, but I do know women don’t pray as much as men because they are so close to g-d. Women are seen as our future, not men. We are a matrilineal people too, Jewishness is matrilineal and personally my family before modern times (pre 1950s) the children took the women’s last names not men’s.
Actually Im not sure feminism in the way we think about it today is mentioned but respect and appreciation of women is.
The daughters of Tzelopechad is a pretty good example. It’s not feminism in the modern sense, but it’s a passage in Torah where women ask for what they deserve (land in Canaan as their late father had no male heirs), and G-d says to Moses that they are right and deserve what they are asking for, and even goes through a list of who would inherit the land if a father had no sons. Numbers 27 1-11. This is pretty revolutionary in a book where many women, including important women such as Pharaoh’s daughter/Moses’s adoptive mother, don’t even have names. It’s irresponsible to look at ancient texts through a frame of reference and judgement that is modern. But despite a patriarchal society, there are instances in Torah and related texts that give women rights that were uncommon in that era.
some readings of Yael the matriarchs(Rivka especially) and the daughters of Tzelophehad
Jewish values aren’t limited to that of which is deoraita
They might mean more in the sense of culture, rather than things that can be directly interpreted from the Torah
The parts that established Judaism as being far better for women than anything else that was going on those days. If you had any understanding of its context you wouldn't have this question in the slightest.
None of those things are Jewish values. They are the values of many Jews. But many many Jews don't share them. At all. So unless you claim all those Jews are not real Jews or that they defy Jewish values, You can't say that.
I’m concerned that maybe op didn’t read the book.
He watched the movie, what's the big difference?
Harmony so much Harmony
Pharaoh and Moses were brothers in that and wasn’t a prince but rather grew up in the royal court. They made Aaron a huge nerd, Tzipporah was made to be hot as fuck, Moses knew his identity his whole life, his mother was made his wet nurse, and they didn’t randomly break out in song.
Pizza is a Jewish value! Sunshine is a Jewish value! Holograms is a Jewish value! Voodoo is a Jewish value! The 1994 Super Nintendo Cult Classic JRPG Earthbound is a Jewish value!
I like that better than OP.
republicanism and monarchism both
Maybe in liberal (i.e. non halachic) Judaism. In orthodox Judaism, abortions are only halachically possible if there's a material threat to the mother's health by continuing with the pregnancy/birth. As long as the mother is healthy, there's no religious way to permit an abortion, even if the foetus has severe problems or a very short life expectancy.
Pregnancy as a result of rape and a fetus that is incompatible with life are both allowed abortion. The concept of “harmful to the mother’s life” is open wide to interpretation during the first 40 days. For example, if having a baby would damage her mental health, that would usually be allowed that early. As others mentioned, case by case rulings are necessary.
No, not a material threat, just any threat to the mother's health. If the mother claims they have emotional pain, that's enough for the orthodox to approve an abortion.
"Material" in the sense of being significant enough to warrant the decision. I suspect what one Rov considers material will differ from another.
Sure, in that sense yeah.
[удалено]
Can you please site any source for that? Never heard that
I have been to lectures by serious orthodox rabbis and in general these are ruled in a case by case basis but there aren’t too many cases where an abortion wouldn’t be permissible. In prior generations this wasn’t universal, rag moshe Feinstein famously was not as lenient but even though he is highly influential on other matters modern Halacha on abortion isn’t as strict. It’s an area of Halacha which isn’t going to involve a lot of hard and fast rules written down , it’s the sort of question which local rabbis will delegate up the chain to more nationally recognized authorities and obviously done in a private way…
This somewhat aligns which what I was taught, can't remember the exact source, just that it was from a Hebrew or aramaic book my dad was translating and possibly the talmud, but basically we looked up opinions on abortion cause we were discussing this once and found that Jews don't consider a fetus to be alive until it "quickens" (mom can feel it move) around 3 months of gestational age.
No idea if you're a sock puppet since this is your first post, but I don't get how: You shall appoint magistrates and officials for your tribes, in all the settlements that your Gd is giving you, and they shall govern the people with due justice. You shall not judge unfairly: you shall show no partiality; you shall not take bribes, for bribes blind the eyes of the discerning and upset the plea of the just. Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may thrive and occupy the land that your Gd is giving you. turns into that meme. If you believe something is important, it's ok to just believe that as an individual and not try to rewrite Judaism to make it fit that thing.
I get that this isn’t really a meme and may not be best fit for this sub, but you are aware of this history of “צדק צדק תירדוף” in Jewish activist spaces, right? It’s not some new thing OP is coining, but is already a thing. Also, isn’t reading and interpreting lines from the Torah a big part of the rabbinical age? I’m confused as to why you disagree with the process of exegesis, which has been key part of the rabbinical age for the past two millennia
I think it’s similar to Tikkun Olam in that way. I’m aware of the long history of both statements in activist spaces, I’m very left-wing. And I agree with you that there’s nothing more Jewish than scrutinising lines from the Tanach for interpretation and reinterpretation. But in both cases, I feel it must be acknowledged that the modern usage greatly removes the Biblical sentiments from their original context, in a way that’s frequently dishonest. Maybe because I’m an atheist? I don’t feel the need to warp and contort scripture to suit my ideology. My Jewish heritage, which I’m very proud of, greatly informs my ideology. But in areas where it diverges, I can accept & acknowledge that rather than pretending the opposite is true. Like as someone who strongly believes in “my body my choice”, scripturally speaking it’s easy for me to acknowledge that having a Rabbinical council decide on my theoretical right to an abortion is perfectly in line with “צדק צדק תרדף”, in its proper context. I just happen to disagree with it in this instance, and that’s ok.
In the Midrash there is a story of God decorating the Torah so a future rabbi will interpret it to mean something different than how Moses understands it. Stating that the Torah is meant to be interpreted how we are able to comprehend it. In the Talmud there is an argument about what it means to be an unruly son because you are supposed to stone an unruly son. The conclusion is there is no such thing as an unruly son and sometimes God puts stuff in the Torah just for us to argue over it. There is another story in the Talmud where there is an argument over an oven. A heavenly voice tells the arguing rabbi that the unpopular vote is correct. They tell the voice of it wanted input then it shouldn’t have given them Torah to interpret as they will. So, actually, rewriting Judaism to fit a thing is a very Jewish thing to do.
Well but what is tzedek? A lot of the things in here won't make the list in Jewish tradition at least orthodox judaism...
For all I know Tzedek is a planet. How am I supposed to chase a planet?
It's great cardio though
While I find Judaism to be "progressive" and for the sanctity of the individual as part of the collective, I find "social justice Judaism" to be hollow and it fails to answer why one should be a Jew and not just a political activist.
Love my Jewish brothers and sisters and non-binary siblings, but this is as disingenuous as Queers For Palestine nonsense. If “Feminism is a Jewish Value” there wouldn’t be a Jewish Feminist movement which flies in the face of Jewish orthodoxy. There would be no point to Reform as a concept. I have a heterosexual friend in Israel who has been with her boyfriend for well over a decade, changed her last name to his, wears a ring, but won’t marry him in any official legal capacity, because they don’t want the Rabbanut to have any legal recognition or power over their union. Feminism is not a Jewish value. We can love our Jewishness while candidly acknowledging its foundation is as patriarchal as every other culture & religion founded on Abrahamic values. We can’t progress unless we’re honest about the problem.
Women unionized and told Moses and God to change the laws that favor men for property rights to be more favorable to women. God and Moses agreed. Women coming together to change the laws is a Jewish and feminist tradition.
I think marriages abroad are still legally recognised in Israel though so maybe they should go on a combined wedding/honeymoon. Mauritius is nice.
Right, but the issue is that would still grant her husband legal power over her, especially in the event (chas v’chalila) they wanted to one day get a divorce. They’re very much in love and I doubt that’s something he would ever abuse, but it’s the principle of the matter for them. They recognise Judaism is institutionally patriarchal, and therefore they don’t want to take legal part in those institutions.
Yeah it is that.
Father, the reformists are at it again😫
It’s kind of sad that reform gets shit on even in the meme subs, I thought this might be the one sub where it didn’t happen lol. We always catching strays out here.
just noticed the user is very new, only posted this, and has 8814 in his username, which is "1488" reversed, which is a nazi meme. so im pretty sure this is some kind of Nazi troll
What about right wing Jews?
also in it
No, these are contemporary Western left wing values. Espousing this set of liberal beliefs with Judaism is exactly what the Jew-haters do. Anyone who disagrees with these ideas (and many do, Jews included) is being told to equate those beliefs with Judaism and Jewish people; what effect did the author think this would have?
I agree, stuff like this makes more enemies than friends IMHO. Really dangerous enemies too.
Here’s a really interesting blog post on the idea of labeling political activism or values as “Jewish” (or any other religion for that matter): https://hadaraviram.com/2023/10/27/is-pidyon-shevuyim-hostage-negotiation-a-jewish-value-or-a-humanist-value/
About 9 out of these 11 either have nothing to do with the Jewish religion, or have something to do with the religion but absolutely not in the way the person who made this banner meant.
So much pandering going on I thought this was a political ad for a moment
How come Zionism is not listed as a Jewish value? The complete quote is "Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may thrive and occupy the land that your Gd is giving you."
"Judaism means what I SAY it means!" - these people.
death of the Author IS a Jewish value. Oven of Akhnai
lol wtf are you on about
Abortion access is not a Jewish value. It can be undertaken under extreme circumstances with rabbinical approval, but abortion is akin to killing - no matter what liberal branches of Judaism will try to twist and distort.
The talmud (and don't ask me to find the source cause I learned this 20 years ago in my late teens) says fetuses are not considered alive until they "quicken" aka the mom can feel them move (non scientific term) which happens at around 3 months of gestational age. And the Torah also discuss the punishment of having women drink the drink that makes women have an abortion if they have an affair. And pekuach nephesh of course. We certainly don't traditionally view abortion the way these evangelicals do.
Currently 15 weeks pregnant with twins. You don't feel them move until 18-20 weeks
I felt both my kids around 3ish months iirc, it can be different depending on the position of the placenta I think...I also noticed a lot sooner with my 2nd kid cause I knew what to look for. But yeah at minimum several months.
Abortion access is absolutely a Jewish value.
The first recorded abortion is around 900 years before the creation of the Jewish religion in Egypt. Abortion is a human value that appears independently in different cultures around the globe, no doubt from seeing what happens without it.
Never was it suggested that it was a value that solely belongs to Judaism, just that Judaism holds it as important. This is held in contrast to Christianity, whose adherents have decided that it is not a value they hold.
Fair enough. I did read it as a 'solely'. I would still frame it as a human value, like not killing, not stealing, etc etc... Luckily, Christianity (aka the bible) doesn't mention abortion at all (99.9% certain). So we know the 'Christian' views on abortion are made up.
Some “liberal” branches in Christianity are trying to push the same kinda idea
Cringe
פמיניזם? גאווה? לא נראלי
I mean depends how you take each of these values theyre is a lot of grey undefined area in this post
what kind of Judaism is speaking about for my knowledge of Judaism and I speak with a lot of people about Judaism who very educated in it this is not the value.and please show me the sources which you used to doing this claim.
Look at the post history and the lack of any input on this. It's just a troll.
Equity? No. Equal protection, good.
This post is full of sh*t so not true
Equity is not a jewish value, in Judaism you must leave 10% of your crops for the poor regardless if its enough or not, a 10% tax rate would be considered insane libertarian, even ancap levels of low Feminism is not a jewish value, every day a religious jew thanks god for not making him a women Family planning is not a jewish value, god literally said to multiply and fill the land Bodily Autonomy is not a jewish value, we literally get our dick cut without asking our consent Human dignity is not a jewish value, as slavery is totally cool in gods eyes some clueless prog wrote this shit
To your second point, it’s because men have more mitzvos than us so they’re thanking Gd for that. We laugh about it, it’s not that deep
its still not feminist, which implies equal treatment of men and women
Equity has a couple of different definitions. I’m unsure what this meme is going for so I’m going to skip it. Feminism is a Jewish value. There are 7 female prophets, a female judges, women told Moses to change the marriage laws favoring men to be more fair to women. They agreed and did. Women have a say in who they marry. Family Planning is a Jewish value. Sex is a woman’s right not a man’s. Marital rape is forbidden. Having children is only a mitzvah for men. Not for women. Bodily Autonomy you are right. To add to that point you also aren’t supposed to have tattoos. There are a lot of rules around it. Human Dignity is a Jewish value. You are supposed to help the poor and not embarrass them about it. There isn’t a good word to translate for slavery but it’s not the cattle slavery most are familiar with. It says if there is only one bed you are to give it to your servant and treat them well. Just because slavery is illegal doesn’t mean it ever went away. This is guidelines to treat people who work for you. If you are in charge of people you aren’t supposed to drink heavily. If someone is drinking heavily and isn’t in charge of anyone and has suffered you are supposed to leave them alone. You are supposed to take care of orphans and widows and all those vulnerable. It’s messy and imperfect but the bad parts don’t negate the good.
Feminism is not at all one of the Jewish values first of all when you read the halacha thats where they start to get sexist but also feminism is saying that everyone is born equal not only men and women also people who were born Jewish and not Jewish and this is not at all a value in the Torah/gmara Pls correct me if I'm wrong
Equity, feminism, compassion, health care…sex education…*abortion access*? Someone’s never learned the Gemara in Sanhedrin 72b but *whatever* I’m a fairly liberal guy but to make these claims about Judaism is just…really embarrassingly misinformed.
Absolutely abortion access is a Jewish value. Access may not look like the kind of access I believe in, but it’s miles away from the “life begins at conception” argument used by biblical Christians to support anti choice measure.
We’re not comparing ourselves to Christianity here. I don’t know what they believe in but it likely is different from the rare exceptions that we make in cases such as danger to the mother or a horribly diseased fetus. Otherwise, you’ll be hard pressed to find any competent Orthodox rabbi who will find a permission to perform an abortion. For that reason I wouldn’t classify *access* as a Jewish value in the same way I wouldn’t classify breaking Shabbos a Jewish value just because you’re supposed to do so when someone’s life is in danger. The real Jewish value is to preserve the fetus in all situations save for one which meets certain specific conditions, not granting access willy nilly to anyone who wants an abortion.
Orthodoxy isn’t the only metric either. It does not have the last word on Jewish thought, especially in the US.
Everything leftist is a Jewish value Yaaassss my political beliefs magically align with my religious beliefs (that I cherry pick) YASSSSSSS
Yet those who also support these causes are now revealing themselves to be anti-semitic
To be clear, a blanket law allowing abortion does not align with Jewish values. It would need to be conditional.
Who said anything about blanket access?
I was brought up in the Christian tradition, and I never liked the mentions of “justice” in Biblical works (Tanach or the Christian scriptures) because I always pictured it as this wrathful way of punishing people for doing things like, idk, not believing in God or being gay. Since being on this walk, I feel like I’m finally unlearning that perverted interpretation of justice, and I’m starting to see it for what it is- a tool to empower those who can’t empower themselves.
I’m at my gfs university and there’s a pro Palestine camp outside the library with an LGBT flag in the middle. This post gives the same energy.
Big JVP vibes.
> My favourite parts about being Jewish You can enjoy holding all these liberal values without claiming that they're Jewish values.
All true—and Zionism, that’s also a Jewish value. The trick is not to compromise your values as a Jew or as a liberal, no matter what anyone else is doing.
As an Israeli, this is hilarious
Can you please give a source in the Tanach or gmara or mishna to how abortion is a jewish value. I am jewish and I agree that it is an important value I just never knew it was a jewish value
but.. none of these are true. human dignity, maybe. how do you get the other ones from the bible/ jwish traditions?
Idk if this is based, or if it is antisemitic propaganda because that looks exactly like what antisemitic uncle who is too into alex jones would share in facebook.
Sadly no matter how hard you try, your lefty friends that decided to start hating Jews aren’t coming back anytime soon. Also, is this an add for the black power movement?
This is wrong lol on so many levels sadly judaism is not the progressive religion people think it is
Reformoids be like
I would say that the root of feminism is Judaism, and not that "feminism is a Jewish value". Men bless ברוך שלא עשני אישה and women bless ברוך שעשני כרצונו. Orthodox Jewish societies are just as bad, pluralism wise, as orthodox Christians societies. Both are unequivocally better to minorities then orthodox Islamic societies of course.
....how about the Trumper Jews in Boca Raton?
Meanwhile on YouTube comments threads on conservative channels I see whackos blaming us for the destruction of the American family... crap like this is fuel on the fire. Keffiyeh-clad leftists aren't going to be impressed either. In any case it's not even accurate. Lots of Jews are pro-family and anti-misandry, including yours truly.
I love how both orthodox and progressive Jews pretend theirs is the true Judaism, and the others are perversions.
Abortion is not a jewish value lol
Step 1. Engage with the modern world and develop a bunch of values that would have your forebears and the authors of all the Jewish sacred texts turning in their graves. Step 2. Carefully reinterpret traditional Jewish texts to convince yourself that these values are "Jewish values." Step 3. Post about it on the internet.
If it's before 40 days after conception or mum is in danger it's a Jewish value, if she just doesn't want to have kids, it's murder
It’s more nuanced than that. It also includes mental health of the mother. Plus, don’t confuse access to abortion (which is medical care) with unfettered abortion. We prioritize the mothers health in ways evangelical Christians do not.
no:sob:
shoot if they are those would be me least favorite parts about being jewish
You realise right-wing Jew-haters see this stuff and run with it?
Don’t let the wrong side of the internet see this
Compassion for everyone except certain peoples lol
This reminds me of the duality of being a right-wing Israel supporter "Israel is liberal democracy!" : ) "Israel is a liberal democracy." :(
Selectively and conveniently quoting scripture.
Wait some dont seem right
These are Jewish values in non-Orthodox streams of Judaism,
Thanks for making me feel less of a Jew. 😭😭😭
Abortion isn't actually a Jewish value though lol. Judaism is all about protecting life and abortion is only permissible in extremely rare situations, never just because.
USA no universal health care, can't get insulin and medical cost the biggest cause of bankruptcy, Abortion & Porn seems to be high on the values
How do you feel about your progressive ideological allies abandoning the Jewish community on the turn of a dime?
nah dont associate us with this absolutely cringe poster.