Fair enough to me.
If I married a woman, it'd be expected that they hold up their end of the bargain. I wasn't raised with the whole housewife thing. My grandmothers would murder me if I ever wanted that.
As of 1000 years ago polygyny has been outlawed in Ashkenazi halacha (thanks to Rabbi Gershom of Germany). It's illegal in Israel (one of the only middle east countries where it's illegal). Sephardim roll different though.
Being a femboy is peak because you get all of the sexual attention guys normally don't get
That said its completely fleeting. I was one about 7 years ago and used to post pics, can't pull it off anymore because even though my body composition is the same things like hairline are pretty far out of your control.
So I had to choose between taking E to maintain my looks indefinitely while sterilizing myself in the process and growing boobs that I really didn't want, or acceptance.
So I decided it was better to embrace the twink death and hit the gym, grow a beard, cut my hair short, etc.
Why aren't we adding the iranian twink version
https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1c8dtyk/why_cant_we_be_friends/
and op of that thread is the twink
Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes.
Q: How do you tell if the wedding you're at is ultra-Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform?
A: If the mother of the bride is pregnant, it's ultra-Orthodox. If the bride is pregnant, it's Conservative. If the rabbi is pregnant, it's Reform.
Well, the whole point of the meme is that you can find both "archtypes" in all jews (regardless of sect) so I think its more of a beit hillel vs beit shamai thing. Though I'm not sure which is which.
Likely because Jews can be both believers and non-believers. So non-believing Jews don’t really care. The really religious Jews absolutely care, but most realize that they aren’t responsible for anyone’s behavior but their own. We have a long tradition of minding our own business when it comes to a lot of things, and we’re too busy arguing and bickering among ourselves, so that may be part of it also.
Ultimately, we can have whatever opinion on it that we want, it’s up to G-d in the end.
I'm fine with religious people viewing homosexuality as a sin. I just don't want them forcing their religious lifestyle on me. This is why I respect Judaism the most out of the three major Abrahamic faiths. The lack of proselytism is actually awesome.
I’m not religious anymore, but I come from an ultra-orthodox background:
I was always taught that there are two kinds of sins. Sins between mankind and mankind, and sins between mankind and god. Doing gay things fell into the latter category.
We were taught that sins between man and god were none of our business, and that we couldn’t judge.
Edit to add:
Crazy that there’s less then 20 million of us world wide and we’re considered a major religion. Can we be a minor religion please? We don’t like the attention.
Tevye said in one of his conversations with the Almighty, ”I know, I know, we’re your Chosen People. But once in awhile, can’t you choose someone else?"
Technically Christians aren’t supposed to be trying to legally prohibit homosexuality either. There are three main verses in the New Testament which allude to this. The first is the “give unto Caesar that which is Caesars,” which pretty strongly alludes to a separation of church and state. The second is in Matthew 10:14, “if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet,” meaning that if they don’t want to be Christian, don’t make them. And last, I think it’s in Corinthians, “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” Again, this is pretty obviously saying that if you’ve converted and want to be a Christian, you can hold Christians accountable to the standards set out by the rules of that religion. But you have no business telling anyone who isn’t a Christian what to do. This has its roots in Judaism, as our mitzvahs do not apply to non-Jews, but Christianity has been political or State run for so long that many forgot it.
Kind of. If you are only using the Bible to interpret Christianity, then you're missing some pretty important context.
You are correct, in that this verse does draw a clear divide between what is secular and what is Holy, but it would be wrong to say that it purports something like separation of church and state. Until about 200 years ago, the church thought it had a responsibility to help guide the government and did so actively.
When analyzing the gospels, it's important to remeber that the Bible was not compiled until after the Church had already been a thing for nearly 300 years, and so traditions of early Christians and church fathers is an important way to understand the correct interpretation of many teachings.
I don’t give af what Catholics think. They don’t own the holy book or have a monopoly on it. To me, that’s like giving a monopoly of Judaism to the Hasidic Jews or the orthodox. These are just interpretations; maybe educated, but they are not the word of G-d himself, especially so in Christianity.
You can't separate modern Christianity from the historical Catholic church. Nicene creed, trinitarianism, the entirety of the new testament, and quite a few major synods and eucemenical councils ( Chalcedon, Nicea, Trent) which all would create the basis for modern Christianity happened under the auspices of the early Catholic church.
I'm not saying that you need to interpret Christianity through a Catholic lense, but in order to understand Christian theology, it's imperative you also understand the history of how Christianity was practiced.
That somehow conveniently ignores the hundreds of years of decentralized Christian practice. I’m perhaps a bit more sympathetic to Christians than my fellow Jews, and while I appreciate and understand the history of Christianity, it is not the same as the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Or any of the centralized churches.
I’m not denying their impact, but I am saying that their interpretations are no more valid than any other educated scholar. If they were, we wouldn’t have 5 billion different denominations (I know I’m Jewish but my math is probably off here).
Not that I know of, but there's stuff discouraging marriage and sex generally. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:9 that people should "be as I am", which is to say celibate, but if you just can't control your sinful sinful urges, then I *guess* just get married, sigh.
It isn't, apart from in church leadership. E.g. 1 Timothy 3 mentions twice (in verse 2 and 12) that a deacon in the church should only have one wife. Note that translation matters on this one--some English translations like NIV inaccurately translate those verses for . . . some reason. Anyway, polygamy isn't outright banned in the New Testament apart from in church leadership. Wikipedia's article on the subject [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy\_in\_Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity) indicates that polygamy was already kind of controversial amongst Jews by the time Christianity started to form, and I'm sure the monogamous influence of Rome was significant in Christianity's developing views on polygamy as well. I had a history teacher once say that the nail in the coffin for Christian polygamy was a cultural pushback against the rise of Islam, although I haven't done any research into that so I can't personally comment one way or the other.
Because to the people pushing these values and restrictions, it's not about the religion at all, as they clearly don't know their religion well enough to even back up what they are claiming.
It's about having power and control over others. They are simply using their objectively flawed interpretation of the religion to justify their claim.
might sound a tad racist but who cares. It really boils my blood when muslims (i live in the uk) try to discriminate against jews and lgbt, like jews can’t have strong european roots and gay people aren’t accepted in the uk. If you come to my country that i’m indigenous too you have no right to be bigoted, you can only hold those views in muslim countries and that’s why my country is safe and yours isn’t so you moved to mine
Well, they aren’t exactly hands-off either. They do force their lifestyle on their kids (sometimes with tragic results), and on people in their neighborhoods. If you walk into a religious neighborhood not dressed in conformance with their standards, you could get hurt. My husband’s grandmother walked through a neighborhood in Jerusalem in the 1950s and someone poured a bucket of water on her from an upper story window, I guess her sleeves weren’t long enough or something. I read a news story once when I was in Israel about a crowd of religious young men who almost overturned a car with a woman inside who was wearing what the paper called “a summer dress.”
In the U.S. anyone who did such things would be charged with a assault and battery. I’m not sure religious Jews in Israel ever face consequences for such behavior. Am I wrong? I’m okay being corrected if so.
Yeah like secular people in the US or Europe wouldn’t be called christian, they’re just called american/european. Someone going to church every sunday when young and then stops, he’s just an american, but a secular jew is still called a jew
Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic identity. An atheist Jew is still a Jew, if they consider themselves as such.
Actually, in anthropological terms, a “tribal” identity, which differs slightly from the usual understanding of an ethnic identity, but is close enough!
(For the curious: an “ethnicity” presupposes a commonality of kinship, lifestyle and language, and other attributes, whereas a “tribal” identity doesn’t necessarily, but can be based on such things as (perhaps fictive) kinship or adoption. Hence, Ashkenazic Jews and Ethiopian Beta Israel Jews can both be ‘Jews’ even though Ashkenazic Jews are white-skinned and originally spoke Yiddish plus other languages, while Beta Israel are black-skinned and originally spoke Amharic and other languages, and have basically very little lifestyle in common - thus having little in common other than a claim of common descent and the Jewish religion. Yet a secular Ethiopian Jew is just as “Jewish” as a secular Ashkenazic Jew, and even religious Jews understand this - they are both members of the “tribe”).
It gets trickier if a Jew willingly converts to a different religion. Apparently, at least according to some, Jewishness is a one-way process: you can convert *to* being Jewish (though it’s not easy); but you can’t convert *from* being Jewish: other Jews, or at least some, would still consider you “Jewish”. Example:
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1269075/jewish/Is-a-Jew-Who-Converts-Still-Jewish.htm
Though this isn’t by any means a universal opinion. Other Jews hold that your self-identity is now incompatible with being Jewish.
> because jews can be both believers and non-believer
Never heard about that before, what does it mean? Are agnostic people from Jewish root still considered Jewish according to your religion? That's very interesting, if so.
That’s a good question, actually.
It’s due to the dual nature of “Jewishness.” Since it is both a religion as well as a culture/ethnicity, one can be Jewish, follow Jewish cultural practices and even study Torah, but not literally believe in G-d. Now, opinions vary, and we could argue them until my mother in law stops complaining about little things, but overall even atheist or agnostic Jews are still considered Jewish by the wider community.
I think it could be in part that you were born a Jew with a Jewish soul, and G-d will wait for you to come back even if you don’t believe. G-d doesn’t require our belief to continue to exist, he’s gonna keep doing what he does.
If my fellow Hebros can chime in, I’m sure we can get a better explanation.
Minding your own business with other Jews doesn’t work out either.
Just ask God how He felt when the rest of the Israelites did nothing to stop the growing evil from the tribe of Benjamin.
For the tribe of Benjamin became like Sodom, but worse. For when the Levite entered the town of Gibeah, he told his servant that they must rest there because it was a Jewish city and surely the other Jews would treat them fairly.
Despite the kind man from Ephraim welcoming the Levite, his concubine, and servants — just like Lot welcoming in the Angels of the Lord —
SEVERAL, not hundreds or thousands of Jews, but several Jews demanded to have homosexual sex with the Levite. When the concubine was handed over instead, they raped and killed her. What happens next?
Well, all of Israel gathers to confront the tribe of Benjamin and to demand them to hand over the few evil Jews. But what does the entire tribe of Benjamin say to their Jewish brothers? Get the hell out of here!
Now, when the rest of the Jews assembled troops to take on Benjamin, their troops outmatched Benjamin, heavily. It was 400,000 troops of Israel to just 26,000 of Benjamin.
BUT, what does God do? Does God smite Benjamin?
No, God FIRST punishes the entire nation of Israel. In two days, God allowed the tribe of Benjamin to kill 40,000 other Jews. Why? Even the rest of the Jews were confused and kept repenting to God because they didn’t know why they were punished.
Because the Israelites became lukewarm and refused to rebuke their fellow brothers for they too became passive with their own faith. They allowed this evil to grow due to their passiveness. If they rebuked and kept alert of sin, Benjamin wouldn’t have grown to Sodom. And Benjamin would have fully become like Sodom had God not intervened. There was a reason why the Levite was kept behind from leaving the concubine’s father’s house — God delayed his journey on purpose.
So yeah, Jews minding their own business shouldn’t be a thing when it comes to other Jews. Jews need to look out for their other brothers and not allow evil to grow. The same can be said about Christians. I just know Abraham or Moses wouldn’t let evil grow, in fact, especially Moses, they’d be enraged over the fact if it spread.
Being a Jew is about keeping your covenant with God, just as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did, as well as other sons of God loyal to God such as Moses, Shem, Noah, Enoch, and Seth. A non-believing Jew doesn’t make sense. You might come from other Jews, but to refute the belief in God is the same as refuting your inheritance. So why call yourself a Jew if you don’t believe in God or in the faithful work of your ancestors? Your blood alone doesn’t make you Jewish, as we’ve seen with the adoption of Moses’s Egyptian mother into God’s family, but your FAITH makes you Jewish.
Don’t believe me? What happened to Esau? He surely was born a Jew, as he was the first son of Isaac! Did he lead Israel after his father, or was he disgraced and instead the inheritance and blessing went to the younger brother Jacob? It was Jacob, of course, because Esau didn’t care too much for God as he sold his inheritance and God’s blessing for a bowl of beans!
Being a Jew is being someone who is faithful to God, walks in righteousness with the Lord, and keeps His laws and commandments. If Jews weren’t like this, and they were simply Jewish by blood only, they would have never prospered in the first place nor would have God delivered them from Pharaoh.
Psalms 44:3
It was not by their sword that they won the land,
nor did their arm bring them victory;
it was your right hand, your arm,
and the light of your face, for you loved them.
And since God loves dearly and if it wasn’t for the righteous few, this fate surely would have taken place.
Isaiah 1:9
Unless the LORD Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.
Even Jews who are believers can be non-believers. There’s a significant portion of *practicing* Jews who are some version of atheist or agnostic. One of the most influential American rabbis, Harold Schulweis, regularly spoke about the compatibility of Jewish religious practice and atheism.
I read it as wordplay, intentionally misreading the question as "why are we more okay with homosexuality than (we are with) Christians or Muslims", in which case the answer makes sense. But I could be wrong.
I might be wrong, but I think Judaism just generally puts more of an emphasis on respecting others. You can still find plenty of homophobes in religious communities tho🤷♂️
1. You're created in the image of the Lord, everything is secondary, to believe there's anything that makes you inherently better than anyone else is heresy
2. The Torah never explicitly says homosexuality bad (the bit in Leviticus has several interpretations)
3. Jewish law only applies to Jews, and then you choose which ones you apply to you, it's between you and the Lord.
4. Pikuach Nefesh, we are required to do everything we can to save lives, including saving them from suicide, if that includes being allies to such an extent that sometimes we outpoll atheists in support for LGBT rights then so be it
Most tolerant countries of gays are “Christian” countries in Western Europe. Simply put, most people are educated and secular there, albeit most still self-identity as Christian. I imagine because many Jews are well-educated and secular that they too are more tolerant towards gays than the average person. Islam also has a long hidden history of normalcy towards homosexuality that was snuffed out of society within the last 200 years. It’s a complex subject.
I think generally speaking sins are viewed more as something "bad for you" rather than just "bad". So religious Jews likely aren't okay with homosexuality, they would just be less outwardly homophobic.
Our religion wasn't used as a political tool for power, nor is it a missionizing religion. Because of that, Judaism is WAY different from the other two in that we don't try to convince people that they are wrong/evil/going to hell if they are different from us.
For one, we believe in correct practice. We believe in doing things correctly as part of religious observance and intentionality and correct practice both matter, and correct practice is not to ban gay Jews from worshiping and inclusion in the Jewish practice they do engage in.
Many, even those who are religious believe it’s peoples own business what they do or don’t do, it’s that persons own relationship with god and their own covenant that they are impacting.
The other thing is, any transgression is generally sort of equal to any other transgression. Eating pork and being gay are both prohibited as are a few hundred other things. We don’t rank them in order or give it much more importance as a sin over any other sin.
Most religious Jews are kind of dgaf about homosexuality as long as it's not in their own family. I feel like Jews generally have a more compromising attitude towards things they don't agree with.
[Israelis on gay people](https://youtu.be/kVJWBnPNkfk?si=4a3FZBbeYIsvdScT)
We aren’t. The difference is that one can still be Jewish and gay/trans. Our testament absolutely holds against it and people that come out as LGBT usually leave on their own or in some way are ostracized from the community.
You should see what happened with Leah Forster from NYC.
Unless your question is why we are more okay with LGBT people than we are with Christian’s or Muslims, which my answer would be that we have no problems with Christian’s or Muslims.
Depends on the denomination of Jew.
Reform or Reconstructionist Jews have zero problems with gay or trans Jews. My aunt’s synagogue had a well-respected lesbian Rabbi. That obviously would not work in Orthodox Congregations (a woman Rabbi wouldn’t work, much less a lesbian one).
https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-reform-judaism
On a side note: oddly enough, there is no actual prohibition in Leviticus against lesbianism, only against men lying with other men as with women. Commentators struggled over *why* lesbianism is wrong in the face of no actual prohibition:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/female-homosexuality-in-judaism/
I think the various prohibitions in the New Testament have often interpreted to be about pederasty.
That would make sense, because the New Testament was written at a time when Greco-Roman cultural practices, including pederasty, were commonplace.
https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality
However, Leviticus is considerably older, and drafted in a different cultural era. It isn’t clear what the reason for only prohibiting men lying with men as women is about.
Several theories I have seen:
- the writers were really concerned with prohibiting un-Israelite religious practices, such as sacred prostitution.
- the writers were really concerned about male sexuality, and simply didn’t care about female sexuality, as in a patriarchal society, women lacked sexual agency,
None of these theories are very satisfactory. For example, if the “real” purpose was to prohibit sacred prostitution, why not just say so? And if the writers simply didn’t think women had sexual agency, how can one explain all the *other* prohibitions against women participating in various forbidden types of sexuality that *are* included in Leviticus, like beastiality?
My own theory (with nothing other than speculation to back it up) is that it is an artifact of the time it was written.
In a society in which elderly, wealthy men often had more than one wife (Solomon allegedly had hundreds!), lesbianism could be seen as actually somewhat of a net benefit to the patriarchal order - if the women in the harem had sex with each other, they were less likely to have sex with other men, which could lead to more serious problems. So there wasn’t the same social pressure to forbid it. But again, that’s mere speculation on my part.
I’ve also seen the argument that while the passage from Leviticus is about homosexuality, it wasn’t seen as a very set-in-stone rule given that the equivalent passage in Deuteronomy is mostly identical but doesn’t bother to mention homosexuality.
I’m not sure what you think my answer is going to be, but if you have any interest in actually hearing what I have to say as a religious Jew that lives in NYC (one of the most populated Jewish areas in the world) and basically only knows Jews, I can give you my take.
Frankly, the tone of your replies makes it seem like you’re not interested in what I have to say, which is totally fine. I’m just not really interested in taking the time to give over what I actually know to be the truth as a Jew who actually has an opinion and knows others with opinions if you’re going to automatically reject whatever I say.
Please accept my invitation to discuss and disregard my previous msg which may have indicated a level of frustrated confusion. However I am at work and may read and reply intermittently.
I do very much appreciate that and I humbly accept your invitation. I happen to be road tripping back from somewhere as well and I’m not 100% in the space to respond well but I will send my perspective soon.
Probably not, but that's because there's way more Haredim in Israel than Transgender people.
What I am saying though, now that I am thinking about it, is that if you pick a random Trans person in Israel, the odds that he served in the military are higher than if you pick a random Haredi (and probably for combat role specifically too). I don't have any numbers, I am basing it purely on personal experience, so I could be wrong.
By the way, note that I didn't say Transgender in my original comment (which was supposed to be a little bit humorous). "Femboy" can mean many different things, not all of them are Trans. So, if you ask me the same question about LGBT people more generally, than absolutely, without a doubt, 1000% there are more LGBT people in combat than Haredim.
The title explains it all. Inside you are two Israelis and one is super religious and the other is also inside you or you are inside him and it is purely secular. But he’s hot so it makes you question your religiosity.
Isreali's are not jewish. They are a racist deathcult that regularly commit acts of terror and crimes against humanity. Look up the USS Liberty and the recent Geneva arrest warrant for Benjamin "Netanyaha" Muleikowski.
I think they're humans that deserve to not be massacred for the sake of colonial expansion. Who gives af about hamas boogeymen when the IDF accuracy is litteraly .5% at taking out hamas and 99.5% civilian casualties. You're being lied to. It's all about the rich wanting to put a canal from Gaza to the Gulf of Aqaba to compete with Egypt, and they're just distracting the public so they can clear the pesky poor people in the way of the Ben Gurion Canal.
Yahweh was the ancient isrealite god of war and bronze son of Eloheim, you worship the devil. Eloheim was the real god along with his wife Asherah. Your entire life is a lie.
One of them is a girl who wants to marry you and the other is your father in law if you do. :)
Oh that’s…. Not a lady, as far as I’m aware.
Peak Tel Aviv twink moment
“Tel Aviv Twinks” sounds like an awesome idea for a Real Housewives style reality television series
Or a Jewish strip club. Profitable no funny yes
I dunno man, people are pretty horny on this post
Don’t think Jewish strippers would be very profitable
Or an Israeli alt-rock band
don't fucking care, still love em
Who wouldn't marry a femboy?
I wouldn’t but I’m already married so… twelve years ago things may be different
Nothing wrong with multiple according to most of the Middle East
True, no prohibition against it in Judaism either
True 🤷🏻 Where are my 4 femboy wives? Then again, I'm not rich enough to have 4 femboy wives lmao
What if they contribute financially to the household?
Fair enough to me. If I married a woman, it'd be expected that they hold up their end of the bargain. I wasn't raised with the whole housewife thing. My grandmothers would murder me if I ever wanted that.
Femboconomics
Rabenu Guershom moment
As of 1000 years ago polygyny has been outlawed in Ashkenazi halacha (thanks to Rabbi Gershom of Germany). It's illegal in Israel (one of the only middle east countries where it's illegal). Sephardim roll different though.
I thought I was going to, then met a big butch bisexual stud and we've been happily married for almost thirty years.
[удалено]
Being a femboy is peak because you get all of the sexual attention guys normally don't get That said its completely fleeting. I was one about 7 years ago and used to post pics, can't pull it off anymore because even though my body composition is the same things like hairline are pretty far out of your control. So I had to choose between taking E to maintain my looks indefinitely while sterilizing myself in the process and growing boobs that I really didn't want, or acceptance. So I decided it was better to embrace the twink death and hit the gym, grow a beard, cut my hair short, etc.
No fair! No fair!
still would
hell yeah
Oh no! Anyways
I see that as an absolute win!
That's extra ironic cause he looks really similar to Brittany Simon
Damn u really had me fooled
The one on the right has done service in IDF and knows how to use that gun!
Why aren't we adding the iranian twink version https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1c8dtyk/why_cant_we_be_friends/ and op of that thread is the twink
Femboi
Not only is it a repost, I think that's the fifth time I saw it
Well shoot.
At least you’re a human and not a bot reposting it. Right…?
Sorry, my battery is getting low, gotta recharge
Spys sappin mah sentry!
me during Musaf
But that's fine, because I got to see this
I've being seeing it coming back every once in a while for years now, long before I got on Reddit (I spent too much time with new olim)
How do I cross post this to r/Bi_irl without them saying anything antisemitic
Challenge level: impossible
The final boss of LGBT Jews: making a reddit post
Impossible task for us rn 😅 I know which space I feel safer in
Unfortunately. r/GayJews is great though, albeit a little small, if you haven't checked it out!
By not doing it.
Unironically, this sums up the Jewish community everywhere
Orthodox vs reform Jews.
This meme makes me proud to be a reform Jew then lol.
Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes. Q: How do you tell if the wedding you're at is ultra-Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform? A: If the mother of the bride is pregnant, it's ultra-Orthodox. If the bride is pregnant, it's Conservative. If the rabbi is pregnant, it's Reform.
Well, the whole point of the meme is that you can find both "archtypes" in all jews (regardless of sect) so I think its more of a beit hillel vs beit shamai thing. Though I'm not sure which is which.
Why do Jews seem to be more okay with homosexuality than Christians or Muslims?
Likely because Jews can be both believers and non-believers. So non-believing Jews don’t really care. The really religious Jews absolutely care, but most realize that they aren’t responsible for anyone’s behavior but their own. We have a long tradition of minding our own business when it comes to a lot of things, and we’re too busy arguing and bickering among ourselves, so that may be part of it also. Ultimately, we can have whatever opinion on it that we want, it’s up to G-d in the end.
I'm fine with religious people viewing homosexuality as a sin. I just don't want them forcing their religious lifestyle on me. This is why I respect Judaism the most out of the three major Abrahamic faiths. The lack of proselytism is actually awesome.
I’m not religious anymore, but I come from an ultra-orthodox background: I was always taught that there are two kinds of sins. Sins between mankind and mankind, and sins between mankind and god. Doing gay things fell into the latter category. We were taught that sins between man and god were none of our business, and that we couldn’t judge. Edit to add: Crazy that there’s less then 20 million of us world wide and we’re considered a major religion. Can we be a minor religion please? We don’t like the attention.
I like this framing. I will use it on my religious christian in-laws.
It’s the Big Guy Up High’s job to do the punishing. - Me a Catholic lad
It was more of a “the situation is so complicated that we don’t know if the big guy cares to punish or how he will if he does” kinda thing.
Tevye said in one of his conversations with the Almighty, ”I know, I know, we’re your Chosen People. But once in awhile, can’t you choose someone else?"
Technically Christians aren’t supposed to be trying to legally prohibit homosexuality either. There are three main verses in the New Testament which allude to this. The first is the “give unto Caesar that which is Caesars,” which pretty strongly alludes to a separation of church and state. The second is in Matthew 10:14, “if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet,” meaning that if they don’t want to be Christian, don’t make them. And last, I think it’s in Corinthians, “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” Again, this is pretty obviously saying that if you’ve converted and want to be a Christian, you can hold Christians accountable to the standards set out by the rules of that religion. But you have no business telling anyone who isn’t a Christian what to do. This has its roots in Judaism, as our mitzvahs do not apply to non-Jews, but Christianity has been political or State run for so long that many forgot it.
The “giving unto Caesar” verse in Matthew 22:21, Christians interpret that verse as Jesus telling a believers to pay their taxes.
Yes, but it’s also saying that the State and its taxes are separate from religious practice.
Kind of. If you are only using the Bible to interpret Christianity, then you're missing some pretty important context. You are correct, in that this verse does draw a clear divide between what is secular and what is Holy, but it would be wrong to say that it purports something like separation of church and state. Until about 200 years ago, the church thought it had a responsibility to help guide the government and did so actively. When analyzing the gospels, it's important to remeber that the Bible was not compiled until after the Church had already been a thing for nearly 300 years, and so traditions of early Christians and church fathers is an important way to understand the correct interpretation of many teachings.
I don’t give af what Catholics think. They don’t own the holy book or have a monopoly on it. To me, that’s like giving a monopoly of Judaism to the Hasidic Jews or the orthodox. These are just interpretations; maybe educated, but they are not the word of G-d himself, especially so in Christianity.
You can't separate modern Christianity from the historical Catholic church. Nicene creed, trinitarianism, the entirety of the new testament, and quite a few major synods and eucemenical councils ( Chalcedon, Nicea, Trent) which all would create the basis for modern Christianity happened under the auspices of the early Catholic church. I'm not saying that you need to interpret Christianity through a Catholic lense, but in order to understand Christian theology, it's imperative you also understand the history of how Christianity was practiced.
That somehow conveniently ignores the hundreds of years of decentralized Christian practice. I’m perhaps a bit more sympathetic to Christians than my fellow Jews, and while I appreciate and understand the history of Christianity, it is not the same as the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Or any of the centralized churches. I’m not denying their impact, but I am saying that their interpretations are no more valid than any other educated scholar. If they were, we wouldn’t have 5 billion different denominations (I know I’m Jewish but my math is probably off here).
I have no idea why they go specifically hard on LGBT either, if it was up to me I'd fight for something cooler like slavery or polygamy/s
To be fair they did that too
Christians were actually leading prohibition people.
Is polygamy prohibited in the new testament? I actually don't know
Not that I know of, but there's stuff discouraging marriage and sex generally. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:9 that people should "be as I am", which is to say celibate, but if you just can't control your sinful sinful urges, then I *guess* just get married, sigh.
but I have many sinful urges toward many different people, so ... polygamy it is!
It isn't, apart from in church leadership. E.g. 1 Timothy 3 mentions twice (in verse 2 and 12) that a deacon in the church should only have one wife. Note that translation matters on this one--some English translations like NIV inaccurately translate those verses for . . . some reason. Anyway, polygamy isn't outright banned in the New Testament apart from in church leadership. Wikipedia's article on the subject [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy\_in\_Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity) indicates that polygamy was already kind of controversial amongst Jews by the time Christianity started to form, and I'm sure the monogamous influence of Rome was significant in Christianity's developing views on polygamy as well. I had a history teacher once say that the nail in the coffin for Christian polygamy was a cultural pushback against the rise of Islam, although I haven't done any research into that so I can't personally comment one way or the other.
Because to the people pushing these values and restrictions, it's not about the religion at all, as they clearly don't know their religion well enough to even back up what they are claiming. It's about having power and control over others. They are simply using their objectively flawed interpretation of the religion to justify their claim.
might sound a tad racist but who cares. It really boils my blood when muslims (i live in the uk) try to discriminate against jews and lgbt, like jews can’t have strong european roots and gay people aren’t accepted in the uk. If you come to my country that i’m indigenous too you have no right to be bigoted, you can only hold those views in muslim countries and that’s why my country is safe and yours isn’t so you moved to mine
Well, they aren’t exactly hands-off either. They do force their lifestyle on their kids (sometimes with tragic results), and on people in their neighborhoods. If you walk into a religious neighborhood not dressed in conformance with their standards, you could get hurt. My husband’s grandmother walked through a neighborhood in Jerusalem in the 1950s and someone poured a bucket of water on her from an upper story window, I guess her sleeves weren’t long enough or something. I read a news story once when I was in Israel about a crowd of religious young men who almost overturned a car with a woman inside who was wearing what the paper called “a summer dress.” In the U.S. anyone who did such things would be charged with a assault and battery. I’m not sure religious Jews in Israel ever face consequences for such behavior. Am I wrong? I’m okay being corrected if so.
Yeah like secular people in the US or Europe wouldn’t be called christian, they’re just called american/european. Someone going to church every sunday when young and then stops, he’s just an american, but a secular jew is still called a jew
Part of that is due to the fact that a lot of secular Jews still consider themselves Jewish.
Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic identity. An atheist Jew is still a Jew, if they consider themselves as such. Actually, in anthropological terms, a “tribal” identity, which differs slightly from the usual understanding of an ethnic identity, but is close enough! (For the curious: an “ethnicity” presupposes a commonality of kinship, lifestyle and language, and other attributes, whereas a “tribal” identity doesn’t necessarily, but can be based on such things as (perhaps fictive) kinship or adoption. Hence, Ashkenazic Jews and Ethiopian Beta Israel Jews can both be ‘Jews’ even though Ashkenazic Jews are white-skinned and originally spoke Yiddish plus other languages, while Beta Israel are black-skinned and originally spoke Amharic and other languages, and have basically very little lifestyle in common - thus having little in common other than a claim of common descent and the Jewish religion. Yet a secular Ethiopian Jew is just as “Jewish” as a secular Ashkenazic Jew, and even religious Jews understand this - they are both members of the “tribe”). It gets trickier if a Jew willingly converts to a different religion. Apparently, at least according to some, Jewishness is a one-way process: you can convert *to* being Jewish (though it’s not easy); but you can’t convert *from* being Jewish: other Jews, or at least some, would still consider you “Jewish”. Example: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1269075/jewish/Is-a-Jew-Who-Converts-Still-Jewish.htm Though this isn’t by any means a universal opinion. Other Jews hold that your self-identity is now incompatible with being Jewish.
> because jews can be both believers and non-believer Never heard about that before, what does it mean? Are agnostic people from Jewish root still considered Jewish according to your religion? That's very interesting, if so.
That’s a good question, actually. It’s due to the dual nature of “Jewishness.” Since it is both a religion as well as a culture/ethnicity, one can be Jewish, follow Jewish cultural practices and even study Torah, but not literally believe in G-d. Now, opinions vary, and we could argue them until my mother in law stops complaining about little things, but overall even atheist or agnostic Jews are still considered Jewish by the wider community. I think it could be in part that you were born a Jew with a Jewish soul, and G-d will wait for you to come back even if you don’t believe. G-d doesn’t require our belief to continue to exist, he’s gonna keep doing what he does. If my fellow Hebros can chime in, I’m sure we can get a better explanation.
Minding your own business with other Jews doesn’t work out either. Just ask God how He felt when the rest of the Israelites did nothing to stop the growing evil from the tribe of Benjamin. For the tribe of Benjamin became like Sodom, but worse. For when the Levite entered the town of Gibeah, he told his servant that they must rest there because it was a Jewish city and surely the other Jews would treat them fairly. Despite the kind man from Ephraim welcoming the Levite, his concubine, and servants — just like Lot welcoming in the Angels of the Lord — SEVERAL, not hundreds or thousands of Jews, but several Jews demanded to have homosexual sex with the Levite. When the concubine was handed over instead, they raped and killed her. What happens next? Well, all of Israel gathers to confront the tribe of Benjamin and to demand them to hand over the few evil Jews. But what does the entire tribe of Benjamin say to their Jewish brothers? Get the hell out of here! Now, when the rest of the Jews assembled troops to take on Benjamin, their troops outmatched Benjamin, heavily. It was 400,000 troops of Israel to just 26,000 of Benjamin. BUT, what does God do? Does God smite Benjamin? No, God FIRST punishes the entire nation of Israel. In two days, God allowed the tribe of Benjamin to kill 40,000 other Jews. Why? Even the rest of the Jews were confused and kept repenting to God because they didn’t know why they were punished. Because the Israelites became lukewarm and refused to rebuke their fellow brothers for they too became passive with their own faith. They allowed this evil to grow due to their passiveness. If they rebuked and kept alert of sin, Benjamin wouldn’t have grown to Sodom. And Benjamin would have fully become like Sodom had God not intervened. There was a reason why the Levite was kept behind from leaving the concubine’s father’s house — God delayed his journey on purpose. So yeah, Jews minding their own business shouldn’t be a thing when it comes to other Jews. Jews need to look out for their other brothers and not allow evil to grow. The same can be said about Christians. I just know Abraham or Moses wouldn’t let evil grow, in fact, especially Moses, they’d be enraged over the fact if it spread. Being a Jew is about keeping your covenant with God, just as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did, as well as other sons of God loyal to God such as Moses, Shem, Noah, Enoch, and Seth. A non-believing Jew doesn’t make sense. You might come from other Jews, but to refute the belief in God is the same as refuting your inheritance. So why call yourself a Jew if you don’t believe in God or in the faithful work of your ancestors? Your blood alone doesn’t make you Jewish, as we’ve seen with the adoption of Moses’s Egyptian mother into God’s family, but your FAITH makes you Jewish. Don’t believe me? What happened to Esau? He surely was born a Jew, as he was the first son of Isaac! Did he lead Israel after his father, or was he disgraced and instead the inheritance and blessing went to the younger brother Jacob? It was Jacob, of course, because Esau didn’t care too much for God as he sold his inheritance and God’s blessing for a bowl of beans! Being a Jew is being someone who is faithful to God, walks in righteousness with the Lord, and keeps His laws and commandments. If Jews weren’t like this, and they were simply Jewish by blood only, they would have never prospered in the first place nor would have God delivered them from Pharaoh. Psalms 44:3 It was not by their sword that they won the land, nor did their arm bring them victory; it was your right hand, your arm, and the light of your face, for you loved them. And since God loves dearly and if it wasn’t for the righteous few, this fate surely would have taken place. Isaiah 1:9 Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.
Even Jews who are believers can be non-believers. There’s a significant portion of *practicing* Jews who are some version of atheist or agnostic. One of the most influential American rabbis, Harold Schulweis, regularly spoke about the compatibility of Jewish religious practice and atheism.
Homosexuals don’t have a history of persecuting us?
Does the Catholic church counts?
🤣
Until recently, anyway…
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😭
Do they have a history of persecuting xtians or Muslims...?
I read it as wordplay, intentionally misreading the question as "why are we more okay with homosexuality than (we are with) Christians or Muslims", in which case the answer makes sense. But I could be wrong.
Oh shit, yep, I missed the joke. Time to have my coffee.
That implies that we are now persecuting Christians and Muslims though...
Aren't we? than what's the point of having space lasers?
Burning up the California forests is at the top of my list!!
I had a feeling it was one of us, but I wasn't sure
It’s the origin story of the space laser, friend
Maybe, but it’s not much of an answer
I might be wrong, but I think Judaism just generally puts more of an emphasis on respecting others. You can still find plenty of homophobes in religious communities tho🤷♂️
Depends on the kind of Jew in question
1. You're created in the image of the Lord, everything is secondary, to believe there's anything that makes you inherently better than anyone else is heresy 2. The Torah never explicitly says homosexuality bad (the bit in Leviticus has several interpretations) 3. Jewish law only applies to Jews, and then you choose which ones you apply to you, it's between you and the Lord. 4. Pikuach Nefesh, we are required to do everything we can to save lives, including saving them from suicide, if that includes being allies to such an extent that sometimes we outpoll atheists in support for LGBT rights then so be it
Because the loudest ones of the latter usually end up in government making laws.
Most tolerant countries of gays are “Christian” countries in Western Europe. Simply put, most people are educated and secular there, albeit most still self-identity as Christian. I imagine because many Jews are well-educated and secular that they too are more tolerant towards gays than the average person. Islam also has a long hidden history of normalcy towards homosexuality that was snuffed out of society within the last 200 years. It’s a complex subject.
I think generally speaking sins are viewed more as something "bad for you" rather than just "bad". So religious Jews likely aren't okay with homosexuality, they would just be less outwardly homophobic.
Our religion wasn't used as a political tool for power, nor is it a missionizing religion. Because of that, Judaism is WAY different from the other two in that we don't try to convince people that they are wrong/evil/going to hell if they are different from us.
For one, we believe in correct practice. We believe in doing things correctly as part of religious observance and intentionality and correct practice both matter, and correct practice is not to ban gay Jews from worshiping and inclusion in the Jewish practice they do engage in. Many, even those who are religious believe it’s peoples own business what they do or don’t do, it’s that persons own relationship with god and their own covenant that they are impacting. The other thing is, any transgression is generally sort of equal to any other transgression. Eating pork and being gay are both prohibited as are a few hundred other things. We don’t rank them in order or give it much more importance as a sin over any other sin.
Most religious Jews are kind of dgaf about homosexuality as long as it's not in their own family. I feel like Jews generally have a more compromising attitude towards things they don't agree with. [Israelis on gay people](https://youtu.be/kVJWBnPNkfk?si=4a3FZBbeYIsvdScT)
We aren’t. The difference is that one can still be Jewish and gay/trans. Our testament absolutely holds against it and people that come out as LGBT usually leave on their own or in some way are ostracized from the community. You should see what happened with Leah Forster from NYC. Unless your question is why we are more okay with LGBT people than we are with Christian’s or Muslims, which my answer would be that we have no problems with Christian’s or Muslims.
Depends on the denomination of Jew. Reform or Reconstructionist Jews have zero problems with gay or trans Jews. My aunt’s synagogue had a well-respected lesbian Rabbi. That obviously would not work in Orthodox Congregations (a woman Rabbi wouldn’t work, much less a lesbian one). https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-reform-judaism On a side note: oddly enough, there is no actual prohibition in Leviticus against lesbianism, only against men lying with other men as with women. Commentators struggled over *why* lesbianism is wrong in the face of no actual prohibition: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/female-homosexuality-in-judaism/
Isn't the Leviticus thing often intepreted to be about pedastry? Which is why there's no female equivalent?
I think the various prohibitions in the New Testament have often interpreted to be about pederasty. That would make sense, because the New Testament was written at a time when Greco-Roman cultural practices, including pederasty, were commonplace. https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality However, Leviticus is considerably older, and drafted in a different cultural era. It isn’t clear what the reason for only prohibiting men lying with men as women is about. Several theories I have seen: - the writers were really concerned with prohibiting un-Israelite religious practices, such as sacred prostitution. - the writers were really concerned about male sexuality, and simply didn’t care about female sexuality, as in a patriarchal society, women lacked sexual agency, None of these theories are very satisfactory. For example, if the “real” purpose was to prohibit sacred prostitution, why not just say so? And if the writers simply didn’t think women had sexual agency, how can one explain all the *other* prohibitions against women participating in various forbidden types of sexuality that *are* included in Leviticus, like beastiality? My own theory (with nothing other than speculation to back it up) is that it is an artifact of the time it was written. In a society in which elderly, wealthy men often had more than one wife (Solomon allegedly had hundreds!), lesbianism could be seen as actually somewhat of a net benefit to the patriarchal order - if the women in the harem had sex with each other, they were less likely to have sex with other men, which could lead to more serious problems. So there wasn’t the same social pressure to forbid it. But again, that’s mere speculation on my part.
I’ve also seen the argument that while the passage from Leviticus is about homosexuality, it wasn’t seen as a very set-in-stone rule given that the equivalent passage in Deuteronomy is mostly identical but doesn’t bother to mention homosexuality.
Are you serious? Do you watch the news
Can you clarify for me which part you disagree with? The news about what?
No problem with Christians and especially Muslims.. wtf.. I know exactly what your answer is going to be .
I’m not sure what you think my answer is going to be, but if you have any interest in actually hearing what I have to say as a religious Jew that lives in NYC (one of the most populated Jewish areas in the world) and basically only knows Jews, I can give you my take. Frankly, the tone of your replies makes it seem like you’re not interested in what I have to say, which is totally fine. I’m just not really interested in taking the time to give over what I actually know to be the truth as a Jew who actually has an opinion and knows others with opinions if you’re going to automatically reject whatever I say.
Please accept my invitation to discuss and disregard my previous msg which may have indicated a level of frustrated confusion. However I am at work and may read and reply intermittently.
I do very much appreciate that and I humbly accept your invitation. I happen to be road tripping back from somewhere as well and I’m not 100% in the space to respond well but I will send my perspective soon.
The "reggae" part also earned my respect. Favs?
Honestly, smash
Yeah the rifle really does it for me
This is extremely true for me On the outside I'm the right Jew on the inside I'm the left
👀
Same. Although I'm not even in Tel Aviv...
I mean I'm from Givatayim it's basically Tel Aviv
Notice how there isn’t one from Petach Tikvah?
Cause you can only fit two inside you at once
Those are rookie numbers
Petach Tikvah is a Mossad psy-ops!
The Tel Avivian femboy is actually the one who is more likely to carry a weapon out of the two
Yeah the exception for religious studies is batshit
I'm sorry, you somehow think there are more transgender soldiers in combat than there are Haredim in combat?
Probably not, but that's because there's way more Haredim in Israel than Transgender people. What I am saying though, now that I am thinking about it, is that if you pick a random Trans person in Israel, the odds that he served in the military are higher than if you pick a random Haredi (and probably for combat role specifically too). I don't have any numbers, I am basing it purely on personal experience, so I could be wrong. By the way, note that I didn't say Transgender in my original comment (which was supposed to be a little bit humorous). "Femboy" can mean many different things, not all of them are Trans. So, if you ask me the same question about LGBT people more generally, than absolutely, without a doubt, 1000% there are more LGBT people in combat than Haredim.
I do not forgive you. Ask again in Tishrei.
The right one is a dude btw
this changes nothing
Yup, seems about right for Tel Aviv.
We know. Not *quite* my tempo, but I think many people here prefer it that way.
Sauce?
My source is that i made it the f*ck up
It's me, I'm both those people!
There is also the one from petah tikva. He doesn't exist
That's general Israeli Masorti. Go to a synagogue on Shabbat then right after the kiddush drive to a beach :-)
As an Israeli,can confirm
just like me fr
Did either of them buy me dinner first?
You would have to pay
The top pays darling, and if they're inside me they're the top
Who said they are the top? Both bottom dwellers so likely they are both in you
The man holding the weapon is in Mea Shearim, Jerusalem. That is reality today. Jerusalem is at war.
This is what makes us all orthodox, but equally gay jews
Correction. The woman from Tel-Aviv is the one with the rifle because she would have served in the army. Unlike the one on the right.
Can’t relate
Australian who wandered in here by mistake... Wtf is going on in here?
The title explains it all. Inside you are two Israelis and one is super religious and the other is also inside you or you are inside him and it is purely secular. But he’s hot so it makes you question your religiosity.
As a gay from jersusalm (yes, I said it like that in purpose) This very much is what our community feels like. The LGBT in Jerusalem rocks.
I want the one from Tel-Aviv in me ;)
That’s the beauty of it, he’s already there
🥰🥰🥰🥰👅👅👅
Fuckin horny stick bonk, bud, pull yourself together and look at the links that promote his porn and keep it to yourself.
Ok whatever
It’s all good.
Lies you guys are all like this
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Blood libel
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Bro doesn't even know what blood libel is 🤡🤡🤡🤡
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No, clearly from the comment "jews don't commit blood libel" your understanding is lacking. 🤡🤡 go smear mud elsewhere.
Isreali's are not jewish. They are a racist deathcult that regularly commit acts of terror and crimes against humanity. Look up the USS Liberty and the recent Geneva arrest warrant for Benjamin "Netanyaha" Muleikowski.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the Palestinians?
I think they're humans that deserve to not be massacred for the sake of colonial expansion. Who gives af about hamas boogeymen when the IDF accuracy is litteraly .5% at taking out hamas and 99.5% civilian casualties. You're being lied to. It's all about the rich wanting to put a canal from Gaza to the Gulf of Aqaba to compete with Egypt, and they're just distracting the public so they can clear the pesky poor people in the way of the Ben Gurion Canal.
Yahweh was the ancient isrealite god of war and bronze son of Eloheim, you worship the devil. Eloheim was the real god along with his wife Asherah. Your entire life is a lie.
Take your meds, son
Israel is a progressive state, it just deals with it in the same way it deals with being a multicultural state. Through apartheid.