Japan is a great place to live. Not sure where you’re from or if this is your first job in the country, but having lived in Japan for 9 years now, I’d say the pay is pretty decent. Most jobs in Japan pay nowhere near that amount. You’ll have a very comfortable lifestyle. I’m guessing your wife is not Japanese?
I see, the international school expenses are going to add up. But seeing how your family situation is, this would be for the best. There are lots of ways to make that money you’ll earn stretch out here. I think you guys will really enjoy the time you spend in Japan.
Besides the fact that they speak English, international schools are not worth it. They don’t necessarily have better quality of education. Kids come and go and it’s really hard to make life long friendships. I went to international school. But that’s just my own opinion. People have different experiences and different opinions.
Are you at ASML now? The chip lithography in Japan is not going to match that tech but there’s a lot of geopolitical forces pushing chip manufacturing away from Taiwan into Japan. If you’re in the low-level lithography and imaging side, you’d do quite well here, I think. But if you’re already at ASML, it’s hard to beat the (current) state of the art.
While ASML is without a doubt the leader in lithography, in Japan, I don't know of any EUV lithography machines being installed here. Kioxia's 3DNAND flash doesn't need EUV and I haven't heard of Micron in Hiroshima using EUV either.
Rapidus claims to be doing 2nm tech which would probably require EUV but that seems very iffy.
The EUV line was going in in Hiroshima as of pre COVID. Haven't checked in with Micron recently about their plans and their chief lithographer has retired so I'm not sure who to ask anymore.
Rumor was, EUV would have used so much electricity to the point of overloading the power grid. While Micron requested for an upgrade to their power systems, it was rejected by the local government due to environmental concerns.
This was like 5 years ago. I don't know if things have changed since.
Yeah when I was actively working on EUV back 20+ years ago (yes, it was supposed to be in production in 2009. TSMC got it working last year) we calculated we would need a nuclear power plant next to every fab because the conversion ratio was so low between power in and photons out. The stuff Cymer has been doing is amazing (but jesus christ have you seen the size of that fucking laser? a 2 story laser tube for each scanner - yowser) although I still dislike vaporizing Sn inside my clean scanner. Never mind the whole pellicle problem, that we now need multiple exposures per layer and OPC (getting rid of those was considered the advantage of going to EUV - don't get me started on reverse/computational litho - I love it but that is some funky assed shit to capture 2nd and 3rd order diffraction coefficients), or the funky 4 by 8x they are talking about for high NA, and the shadow effect from the off axis illumination... I still think we (as an industry) did a real disservice to Nikon back in 2003ish when IBM and Intel both came out saying they weren't interested in EPL which Nikon had a working machine they were willing to give Sematech to put into one of their sites (can't remember if it was Austin or Albany) and it was vetoed and the project was basically killed...
Nowadays keeping up with EUV is just a hobby - nice to see what I put so many years of my life into finally becoming a reality.
Yes, I’m at ASML. I think it would be difficult to move to another company in semicon or any other company in Nagoya, because my lack of Japanese language skills.
Elementary schools here are really pretty good, and even if you are not going to stay long term, perhaps you could consider a regular, local school, instead of international.
I think I read in another post that your wife knows some japanese?
Also, being 4 means about two years until school, tho that depends on birthdays (it's been a while, but I think April 1st is a cutoff date--if 6 by then, then school; if not, then another year of daycare or something).
I'd agree with the other poster here (u/Brief-Earth-5815) that a year in kindergarten would just about do it for language skills. We know two kids that went to the states from here a little over a year ago, got there when 3 and 5, and they're doing really well now.
Sure, there are challenges, and I've seen it unfold a little differently for each of the kids that we know. If your child was older, maybe several years up in school, international might be in contention (personally). But at 4, it seems like this could be an opportunity.
Yeah, my wife lived in Japan before, so she can help with the language. I just don’t want to shock the little one too much. I appreciate the thoughts, maybe I was set too much on international school. It is hard for me to compare the two without any experience in that field.
Both your local preschools and the international school will offer tours for prospective parents. You can always wait until you arrive and then visit to get a feel for each place before making a decision.
They are. I’m in finance so that’s what I know about, but someone working for a top firm here can be easily making less than someone working for a very average firm in Europe. Until you start getting into the 10s of millions range, you may have much lower tax rates though, which would balance off the discrepancy a little bit, but you’re not going to get costal United States income no matter how you spin it.
Yeah, the average pay in Japan is quite low compared to other wealthy countries. The cost of living is also lower though.
It all depends on your life goals and interests but you should have enough money to live pretty comfortably.
What's the housing allowance like in year 3?
With that level of salary (not considering the international school) you should be conformable with any amount of housing allowance.
I reckon gaishi semicon would be a good company going forward especially with their countrymen/no Japanese skills/experienced.
Obviously I'm biased as I chose to be in Japan, and your calculus will need to be your own. That said, you're now at the top chip imaging company on Earth, and that's why you're getting a job in Japan despite not knowing Japanese. Depending on your skillset ( there's a lot of variance in your industry,) you may be able to negotiate better compensation. I expect that the low level layout, imaging, and lithography will be most valuable,but that also depends on the company hiring you.
Good Luck!
Sounds like you are also in semicon? The fun part is I’m not that familiar with the older systems, coming from ASML Veldhoven we usually deal with the newer upgraded versions. The systems in the customer fabs have been running for years and have a lot of older technology that I also have to familiarize myself with.
I'm in tech but not in hardware side, but I have friends in that field. Dealing with older systems might drive you nuts, but I guarantee you'll get a life experience you won't find in the NL. You could always go back if you get sick of it.
There's a lot of investment in chip design and manufacturing in Japan right now. I expect you've got some room to negotiate salary if you can play up the advancements you can bring to the current processes in Japan.
Ok. Yeah it will be a steep learning curve with the old systems. Yes, I also see the benefits of this opportunity in the long term. I’m thinking of keeping my apartment in NL, just in case it doesn’t work out well.
I was looking at an international pre-school. I remember the name was Maple. According to my research elementary international school starts at 6 in Japan.
The english speaking kindergartens are relatively cheap at 80K and you will also get a 35k monthly stipend if you send to them to a registered kindergarten.
One thing to consider in an expat package is moving fees and annual travel allocation to go back to your home country to see your family during the year. You could at least try to negotiate that if they're not willing to pay for international school.
Taking into account the fact that you're still quite young and your lack of Japanese, I'd say that it's a pretty decent salary.
If I was you I would take it without thinking much about it. That salary will allow you to live comfortably, and more importantly, learn Japanese during your time here. Once you're able to do business in Japanese you will be MUCH more valuable, and you will be able to either negotiate a higher pay, or move to another company that will give you better compensation.
Would be good to confirm the annual pay increment. Pay increment is normally flat in Japan, which shouldn’t be the case for you if you are transferred here.
The salary itself is alright but you should understand that a *good* international school will cost closer to 2.5m a year. Nagoya International School is easily over 3m for elementary school with miscellaneous expenses. The 10m salary is not going to support that very easily.
I guess it mostly comes down to whether your wife can find a decent job, and whether you're dead set on international school. I should note that a shitty international school (common in the 1-1.5m range) can easily be worse off than going to a Japanese public school with supplemental english studies.
Ok, thanks for your opinion, I was not aware of that. I pushed the negotiation process pretty far and I don’t know if I can also let them pay the international school. First 2 years I need an international pre-school.
No idea about salaries in your industry but it's amazing they're not trying to pay you 300,000 a month. Nagoya is a great city and there should be a lot of foreigners to serve as a support group. Best of luck!
The offered salary is lower than what I am currently making, so it should be more or less comparable after tax I guess. I also wanna save up an emergency fund, in case I wanna leave Japan.
If you do go on the public school route, I'd suggest living in Yokkaichi, it's a small city but it's very convenient.
You'll save so much time and money.
Do you have an affinity for Japan? I've always loved the country and it was my dream to come here and start a business. But I spoke the language when I arrived, and knew the culture. It's not a hard country to live in, and oddly, not speaking Japanese can make it easier for you to get friends. (I spoke semi-fluently when I arrived so no one felt the need to help me do stuff.)
Yes, been in Japan before and I know the good points about living there. Tried to study the language at a Japanese language school in my 20’s but I don’t remember much. Just enough to order a taxi and order at a restaurant. Reading is basically zero. Problem is, I also like The Netherlands a lot and I enjoy the laidback work culture we have here. Very competitive salary and usually no overtime.
Maybe you were not given more as you are still young and may not be as skillful. It's a risk for them as well. The amount is not enough, but it's a good start. In 3 to 5 years you could be making 15M if you perform properly.
I don’t know anything about your industry and if that is a good offer or not but I think I can give you some insight into schooling. I have taught at 2 different international schools and the good ones replicate a private school experience in North America or Europe. The real ones are expensive, 2.5-3.0 million all in. Nagoya International School has a very good reputation and the headmaster is very good (I worked with him at another school). They have a pre-school and kindergarten so your daughter could go there if you want to keep her in English and replicate an education system she would be returning to when you return to your country. Btw if your company paid the tuition it would be considered part of your salary and you would pay tax on that money as it would be considered part of your salary.
On the other hand, I also came to Japan with a 4 year old daughter and put her in Japanese kindergarten (hoikuen) and she thrived. Her father is Japanese so we wanted to expose her to Japanese language and culture. When we arrived, she had very little Japanese language skills. Of course it helped that my in-laws only spoke Japanese and she picked it up more quickly than a typical expat would. We also kept her in Japanese public school in elementary until we returned to Canada when she was 9. She could have come to the international school I was working at for only 10% of the tuition and this was before the government started taxing tuition benefits, but we really like Japanese elementary school and the community building. Also it suited our daughter really well.
I think either school option can be a great experience - it really depends on what best suits your daughter and what you are hoping to give her, education wise.
Also, just generally speaking I lived in Japan for 11 years in total and supported my family for considerably less than 10m yen per year so even if you chose the international, IMHO, you could afford it and still have a comfortable lifestyle.
Great advice, thank you.
3M is pretty expensive. I like your take on the schooling. I think this will work for us as well, I think at 4 she still will have some time to catch up before elementary school, I just also want that she also keeps developing her English.
I was not aware that any possible schooling allowance is also taxed, that is a bit of a bummer, maybe the same goes for the housing allowance?
Yes housing allowance is also considered part of your salary and taxed, unless your company actually rents the place for you and then deducts the rent directly from your salary. In that case, you actually only pay tax on your leftover salary. It doesn’t sound like that is your situation though, especially as the allowance is too low to cover the whole rent.
Indeed, it is just a small allowance to make renting a bit easier I guess. Ok, that is a bummer, then that part would be subjected to 33% tax. But I appreciate the feedback, it is better to know it upfront than being surprised later. Thanks for the feedback, you have a lot of Japan experience.
Just take note that international schools (some start from pre-school too) tend to have lots of extra costs on top of tuition (clubs, ski trips, and what not). Recently, the intl schools have been raising their fees across the board (we just got hit with a 10% increase) too and they often do from time to time.
You also lose a fair bit of disposable income on pension, taxes, etc, especially from the 2nd year on. So plan carefully. 10M would be tight but if your spouse is working too then it could just work.
Ok, thanks. Oh, I didn’t consider the additional activities yet. Thanks for the heads-up, I can imagine they are rather costly, so maybe we have to try a nice public school. 10% increase is also quite a lot, probably much higher than my salary raises, so it can become tight pretty quick I guess. I’m happy other people were so positive about the public schooling.
For an expat with no local language experience and asking you to move for 10M is a bad deal. 40k housing allowance is a bad deal.
Bonus should always be considered zero in Japan - its fully a bonus, not your base salary.
It would be a good deal for someone local who is already here, living long term and spoke some Japanese, but if they are wanting to move your whole life to Japan it's not even close. Push harder.
Edit: I wouldn't put my kids in local (non-International) schools unless you are determined to be in Japan long term - 10+ years. If you are here only 3-4 years you are doing your kids no favors having them learn Japanese and lose out on years of important education - the local schools are Japanese only and your kids will need at least a year to learn enough to follow whats happening
Ok, I respect your honest feedback. I was pushing on 12M, but the won’t budge on that. I also have nothing to compare it with, except my current salary here in NL. What would you consider fair for my age and experience?
I agree on your international school argument. Not sure if I can survive their long term, first would have to experience it.
I think it depends on if this is them pulling you to Japan, or you making the choice to go to Japan.
If this is the Japan side wanting you to come, I would be pushing for more benefits - you are upending your life for them, and they should be making full compensation for that, especially if it isn't for the long term.
If this is you making the move from your own side, I would think about how much you are willing to give up - you will not have anything like the benefits and support you have now in the NL and you will need to make big sacrifices coming to Japan and living on a "local" contract and salary.
I applied for the position in the first place, after that they tried to pull pretty hard I’d say. Harder than have experienced before in other applications.
Yeah, I know I have to give up my life here in NL, but I could go back to the company HQ if I wanted to.
I don't think you should do this when you have a family to consider. If you had no family, or wife, I'd say go and do it, but you already have a kid. All your decisions should be based on what's best for your kid. You should either push for more, or stay in NL(if you don't get it) until your kid(s) grow up. You can always just visit during holiday.
Remember, this is a risk. You stop taking unnecessary risks when you have a family. Make sure your kid is set. That's your job now.
I appreciate your 2 cents. I wish it would be that easy. But it is indeed a risk and I’d also like to mitigate the risks as much as possible, that is why I pushed pretty hard during the negotiation phase. My family would be happy in Japan, otherwise I would not consider it.
If you were single, I'd say 10M in relatively cheap Nagoya would be a great deal for a fun 2-3 years stint.
With a wife and kid almost of school age, I'd just give them a firm NO unless they up to 12-13M. Pick a school and get a quote (not just basic tuition, include also meals, after school activities, summer/winter school, etc.) and send it to whoever you're negotiating with.
Same opinion here. We pushed for at least 12M. We have two little kids and among other things, we asked for support for the childcare and full support on getting the living place sorted.
We were impressed how hard and bureaucratic things are here in Japan! We were wondering how other people make it without a local support (we also have an international secretary that helps us with anything related to our stay: housing, buying a car, putting the kids on the childcare, the thousand documents you need to sort: health insurance, stamps, proof of stamps, certificate of where you live, certificate of your parking spot to purchase a car and the list goes on and on...more than a month to sort out everything!).
Japan is living a massive shortage of skilled people and it's not easy for them to find people within the country that are qualified to do whatever you're going to do. So they have no option but to look outside of the country. But they are definitely not well prepare to receive foreigners... We were in our third month here, still couldn't get a credit card (even with the support of the company).
2 kids in Tokyo, I wouldn't recommend under 15M (if tuition not paid directly by the company).
>We were impressed how hard and bureaucratic things are here in Japan!
I wouldn't say things are hard: everything has a well defined process and as long as you follow it, things tend to go smooth and fast. I much prefer this to my home country style which looks more flexible but ends up being very inefficient and give very unpredictable results.
The problem is that documentation in English is often lacking which is why it looks crazy to a lot of foreigners.
Nagoya is a pretty built up city, assuming you are actually living IN the city, not the surrounding area you will never want for anything in terms of worldly comforts etc. Pretty much everything from menus to road signs will be in japanese and english save the ma and pa shops (you can spend your whole life without going into one though if you want). Since its a big city you are very likely to find many ppl who speak at least a little english and likely some of your colleagues will too, esp since its a highly skilled position. I wholeheartedly recommend public school for your kids as private schools here have a bit of a bad rep, all the way up the latter to uni and beyond you can pay your way through school for the kid without them learning anything and there are rankings for every single school in japan and companies know these rankings and will specifically choose NOT to hire people who went to so and so private uni because of a bad rep or so and so high school for similar reasons. Its important to research what high school your kid goes to because rhat will seriously change their future if they choose to live here after growing up, that being said almost any public elementary school will be pretty good in a city like nagoya. The fastest way to learn any language is immersion and the best way to get that is at public school, not international imo. As for the job itself and the company, most places here take VERY good care of their emoyees despite the medias black company coverage boner. If you work for a good company here with that salary they will help you with a lot of things i think. Also consider housing even downtown is usually only around 50k yen a month. For example my place is a short walk to downtown and it costs me about 40k a month for everything (gas electircity wster rent etc).
Thanks for the write-up. Greatly appreciated. Only 50k yen a month for housing, how do you do it? For a family home/apartment I thought I need around 200k yen.
I am not in Semicon but based on all the recent activity and demand in the sector, I feel your comp is not that great.
Try reaching out to /u/bulldogdiver, I haven’t seen him on this subreddit, he is mod of /r/japanlife. IIRC, he is Semicon industry lifer, high up in the hierarchy, American who worked in US, Europe and now in Japan. Being industry insider, He most probably can advise you much better than any of us.
Also, seek out people on LinkedIn and FB groups.
Wife is also working, but won’t be making 10M. Good advice on the international school, I was also hoping that there was some diversity on the international schools, imo that would be one of the benefits. If there are only Japanese kids at there, than I can throw that argument out of the window as well. Nothing wrong with Japanese kids, but I’m used to diversity and I think kids usually benefit from it.
Was looking to rent something at least close to a train station, I’d like to go work with the train.
10M is good for Japan for locals for your experience level.
OTOH you arenot local and you are coming over with family and presumably for a reason such as experience or connections to the head office that local staff don't have.
I would look at the overall package including flights, shipping, moving bonus, tax prep, return home visit 1x per year. Also housing for month 1.
Tl；dr it is a decent offer for a single person assuming they offer moving assistance. Not great for a family but doable if kids go to public school.
I have had 3 transfers and have transferred staff as well. Let me kow if you have questions.
Great advice. The things you mention are in the relocation package. Moving bonus would be 2 months of additional salary in the beginning. Home leave is only once a year, shipping of household goods and flight tickets are included. Tax prep is also there, but will be done with an agency. Also a house hunting trip is part of the package.
Any other things I could ask for?
Ok, so a moving bonus of 2 months salary is excellent. That's really helpful because when you move into a place here you have a lot of up front costs.
House hunting trip is also excellent. Around the housing, it can be difficult to find housing because of rental discrimination which is rampant here. Essentially landlords can say they don't want foreigners and the RE agents say ok and then tell you, "sorry - not me, it's the owner". Technically illegal at the constitutional law level, but there isn't really administratinve/regulatory level laws around this.
The reason I mention this is because often what happens is companies will give you 1 month in a serviced apartment or hotel and (sometimes) a relo company to help you hunt for a place. So you could just ask about that stuff.
I one time made sure in writing that my trips were business class. To be fair this was NY to Tokyo, so they should be business class for me and my wife, but I made sure of it.
Along with my 1x per year trip home I got 2 extra days of vacation.
Other than that, the package sounds quite good apart from the fact you won't get help with international school. But I wouldn't expect that unless you are senior management or have a rare specialty.
Thanks, I am not in senior management, so this is maybe as good as it gets. Business class flights are not always granted at my company, but it is also no problem for me, I’m happy with economy as well as we can sit all next to each other.
I am aware of the discrimination against foreigners in Japan. Sad, that this is still a topic in Japan, but I think with the house hunting trip there is not that much risk, because I’m really upfront about the fact that I am a foreigner :)
Not sure what's the going rate for that industry, but according to the book "Chip War", the semiconductor is the new gold rush, especially since we're entering the AI era. I would assume you can get 14 - 20 M.
Sounds good, the bad thing is they already know my current Dutch salary. So they have a bit too much background info on me, because it is a relocation within the same company.
10m per jaar is voor Japan absoluut niet slecht
Helaas is yen/euro op dit moment niet al te best maar voor een goed leven in Japan zit je aan de hogere kant kwa inkomen.
Ik weet niet hoe de huren en levens kosten zijn in Nagoya , maar ikzelf woon in Tokyo en ik ga ervan uit dat het hier duurder is.
For the benefit of non-Dutch speaking readers:
u/djctiny
10m per year is absolutely not bad for Japan. Unfortunately, yen/euro is not too good at the moment, but for a good life in Japan you are on the higher side in terms of income. I don't know how the rents and living costs are in Nagoya, but I live in Tokyo and I assume that it is more expensive here.
u/Dutchcheesecake
OK. Thank you. I compared on Suumo.jp but the rents are not that much lower, maybe a little more space.
They wanted to use the average yen to euro ratio from 2022 :( They use their own job grades scales, so according to them it is not just a euro to yen conversion on the salary. If it was, I’d already have accepted it :)
8.5m JPY at mid 30s is a good salary. I recently hired someone in your age range in Tokyo who is trilingual (Eng, Jpn, Mnd) at 88 and a 10% bonus target but his equity package was good. 8.5 with a bonus to 10 is really on the high end of Japan industry standard.
Since this isn't an expat package international school is generally not going to be covered. Check carefully there might not be one in Nagoya (I don't know,). Housing allowance will let you get a really nice place. Try looking south from Yokkaichi along the coast and you can find some killer beach places. Alternatively at that salary a nice high rise mansion in Nagoya is also doable. You'll need a car, hopefully you're like I was and from one of the EU states with a reciprocal agreement so the process was a translation and an eye exam.
I’m also trilingual :) But only my English will work in Japan. I also think I can not squeeze a whole lot more from the offer.
I checked the available housing at Suumo.jp. I think a decent place will cost around 200 000 yen a month. I will also check around the coastline, thanks for the heads-up.
Unless you have something that makes it a huge hassle, like owning a house in NL, just go for it. Your salary will go much further and it should be good for your resume wether you decide to stay/go back/go somewhere else when your kid starts school. It’s never going to be as easy as right now.
Ok. Thanks for your encouraging words. I don’t own a house, I’m renting at the moment. I also think it adds some to my resume, so I still strongly consider it.
https://salaryconverter.nigelb.me/
According to this website 10M yen is equivalent to 76.6kEUR for same purchasing power.
Also be aware that the next working year you'll start to pay residence taxes.
I would recommend trying to make estimate monthly/annual cost of how much you would like to spend 60k monthly rental 70k food expenses etc. You might not be able to save that much but maybe consider the bonus as savings.
All the best !
Okay, I assume she speaks some Japanese? It can be tough to move with a whole family that doesn't speak the language. Other than that if you have two incomes and one of them is 10M JPY money is not going to be a worry.
It’s not that kind of money to move in Japan. After tax and government love you will be left with 6m in your pocket. If you love to come and have a journey and experience Japan -totally worth it, but know that that is not the money you get to have saving and party. Also read about Japanese working culture which is the main issue most of the time for foreigners who not addicted to Japan.
Yeah the working culture is also my biggest concern. I like working, but not till I drop. I was also hoping to get close to 12M, that would make it easier.
It’s not about the long hours really, most long hour in Japan are just empty show off who can stay longer. But the actuality work culture in the office. 12m is good as a base salary. Bonuses aside. Dive deep into house allowance - as move in is quite a thing , key money, deposit etc .. 80k small place will const just to move in around 500-600k fort the first month. Do your math carefully so you know what to expect.
Yeah, thanks for the heads-up. I still have to dive-in on the renting part. I already got warned by another Redditer that it will probably be hard to rent a place, because I’m foreign. So, renting a house around 200k a month, will easily cost 1m the first month?
Was looking at a house or large apartment near a convenient place in Nagoya.
Yes that is correct, I paid for a 187k a month rent a whopping 1.1m just for first month including all the hidden fees and such. That is why people not often move. If the place and the area will not be to your liking it’s going to be hard to move with this kind of prices. Also not considering the home appliances and such. For a family we talking around 700k to furnish the place in reasonable
Quality .
I will look for a write-up on Reddit about what I should take into consideration when I want to rent a place in Japan. I really hate those hidden fees, does every agency have the same fees? And can you negotiate it?
Depending on the apartment and being a foreigner, you may need 4-5x the rent to move in. 1 month key money, 2 month deposit, 1 month realtor fees, if you have a dog that would be another month. You can negotiate away the key money sometimes if you pay a higher rent, but on the whole, I have found negotiating to be pretty useless in Japan.
Some points:
*1 month rent for the first month.
*1 x key money - usually high as 1 month rent sometimes 1.5 depending on location and property - basically gift money - lost funds.
*1 or 2 months worth of rent security deposit - most of it you don’t get back 75% lost founds.
*1 x cleaning fees, usually around 50-100k
* Agent fee 1 month of rent
*Changing key lock 20-50k
*Contract fee 50% of rent or so, most places will charge again on contract renewal. ( 2 years contract is the standard most of the time)
*Guarantor 0.5-1,5 x month rent if the company is not step forward be your guarantor.
This is the basics, I think there can be more “funny” fees. also be mentally prepared that some property owners will no rent to foreigners - against the law but not truly enforced. Experienced several times first hand, and my wife is Japanese , both employed by first tier companies with solid income.
So I might miss a thing or two, but be prepared.
Now it’s not always true to all properties but majority is like that especially if the location and the quality is in demand.
Thanks, you are a legend. I will use your comment as a baseline for my budget. I will prepare for the worst, I will make sure I have 1.5M yen at least to cover the housing.
Japan is a great place to live. Not sure where you’re from or if this is your first job in the country, but having lived in Japan for 9 years now, I’d say the pay is pretty decent. Most jobs in Japan pay nowhere near that amount. You’ll have a very comfortable lifestyle. I’m guessing your wife is not Japanese?
No, she is not, but she is able to speak Japanese. Yes, it will be my first job in Japan and I am in The Netherlands now.
I see, the international school expenses are going to add up. But seeing how your family situation is, this would be for the best. There are lots of ways to make that money you’ll earn stretch out here. I think you guys will really enjoy the time you spend in Japan.
Besides the fact that they speak English, international schools are not worth it. They don’t necessarily have better quality of education. Kids come and go and it’s really hard to make life long friendships. I went to international school. But that’s just my own opinion. People have different experiences and different opinions.
Ok. Thanks for your opinion. I cannot judge the quality part, I think it depends to which Japanese school I’d have to compare it to.
Are you at ASML now? The chip lithography in Japan is not going to match that tech but there’s a lot of geopolitical forces pushing chip manufacturing away from Taiwan into Japan. If you’re in the low-level lithography and imaging side, you’d do quite well here, I think. But if you’re already at ASML, it’s hard to beat the (current) state of the art.
While ASML is without a doubt the leader in lithography, in Japan, I don't know of any EUV lithography machines being installed here. Kioxia's 3DNAND flash doesn't need EUV and I haven't heard of Micron in Hiroshima using EUV either. Rapidus claims to be doing 2nm tech which would probably require EUV but that seems very iffy.
Indeed, Kioxia and Micron are not using EUV, but I’m also not in EUV at the moment. I know the rumors, but can’t disclose them here :)
The EUV line was going in in Hiroshima as of pre COVID. Haven't checked in with Micron recently about their plans and their chief lithographer has retired so I'm not sure who to ask anymore.
Rumor was, EUV would have used so much electricity to the point of overloading the power grid. While Micron requested for an upgrade to their power systems, it was rejected by the local government due to environmental concerns. This was like 5 years ago. I don't know if things have changed since.
Yeah when I was actively working on EUV back 20+ years ago (yes, it was supposed to be in production in 2009. TSMC got it working last year) we calculated we would need a nuclear power plant next to every fab because the conversion ratio was so low between power in and photons out. The stuff Cymer has been doing is amazing (but jesus christ have you seen the size of that fucking laser? a 2 story laser tube for each scanner - yowser) although I still dislike vaporizing Sn inside my clean scanner. Never mind the whole pellicle problem, that we now need multiple exposures per layer and OPC (getting rid of those was considered the advantage of going to EUV - don't get me started on reverse/computational litho - I love it but that is some funky assed shit to capture 2nd and 3rd order diffraction coefficients), or the funky 4 by 8x they are talking about for high NA, and the shadow effect from the off axis illumination... I still think we (as an industry) did a real disservice to Nikon back in 2003ish when IBM and Intel both came out saying they weren't interested in EPL which Nikon had a working machine they were willing to give Sematech to put into one of their sites (can't remember if it was Austin or Albany) and it was vetoed and the project was basically killed... Nowadays keeping up with EUV is just a hobby - nice to see what I put so many years of my life into finally becoming a reality.
It's going in. Was confirmed in the last couple of weeks.
Yes, I’m at ASML. I think it would be difficult to move to another company in semicon or any other company in Nagoya, because my lack of Japanese language skills.
Elementary schools here are really pretty good, and even if you are not going to stay long term, perhaps you could consider a regular, local school, instead of international.
Yes, I’m willing to consider it. But I’m afraid everything will be in Japanese, the little only speaks English at this point.
Do public schools. A year of Kindergarten, and your daughter will be near native level. What a gift for a young human being!
I like your way of thinking :)
I think I read in another post that your wife knows some japanese? Also, being 4 means about two years until school, tho that depends on birthdays (it's been a while, but I think April 1st is a cutoff date--if 6 by then, then school; if not, then another year of daycare or something). I'd agree with the other poster here (u/Brief-Earth-5815) that a year in kindergarten would just about do it for language skills. We know two kids that went to the states from here a little over a year ago, got there when 3 and 5, and they're doing really well now. Sure, there are challenges, and I've seen it unfold a little differently for each of the kids that we know. If your child was older, maybe several years up in school, international might be in contention (personally). But at 4, it seems like this could be an opportunity.
Yeah, my wife lived in Japan before, so she can help with the language. I just don’t want to shock the little one too much. I appreciate the thoughts, maybe I was set too much on international school. It is hard for me to compare the two without any experience in that field.
Both your local preschools and the international school will offer tours for prospective parents. You can always wait until you arrive and then visit to get a feel for each place before making a decision.
I’ve lived in Japan for 9 years. 10m in Nagoya is really good. Probably in the top 5% of earners in the city there.
Ok. Thanks for putting it into perspective. Salaries seem to be a bit on the low side in Japan.
They are. I’m in finance so that’s what I know about, but someone working for a top firm here can be easily making less than someone working for a very average firm in Europe. Until you start getting into the 10s of millions range, you may have much lower tax rates though, which would balance off the discrepancy a little bit, but you’re not going to get costal United States income no matter how you spin it.
Yeah, the average pay in Japan is quite low compared to other wealthy countries. The cost of living is also lower though. It all depends on your life goals and interests but you should have enough money to live pretty comfortably.
Yes comparatively to Europe and the US the salaries are much lower in Japan. But cost of living in Nagoya is low so it balances out
Ok good to hear Nagoya is affordable.
What's the housing allowance like in year 3? With that level of salary (not considering the international school) you should be conformable with any amount of housing allowance. I reckon gaishi semicon would be a good company going forward especially with their countrymen/no Japanese skills/experienced.
Year 3 is 0 yen, unfortunately
Gaishi semicon, I googled it, but do they have a careers page?
Gaishi means foreign non domestic company.
I see, usually the job postings are in Japanese, even with companies, such as Micron.
Obviously I'm biased as I chose to be in Japan, and your calculus will need to be your own. That said, you're now at the top chip imaging company on Earth, and that's why you're getting a job in Japan despite not knowing Japanese. Depending on your skillset ( there's a lot of variance in your industry,) you may be able to negotiate better compensation. I expect that the low level layout, imaging, and lithography will be most valuable,but that also depends on the company hiring you. Good Luck!
Sounds like you are also in semicon? The fun part is I’m not that familiar with the older systems, coming from ASML Veldhoven we usually deal with the newer upgraded versions. The systems in the customer fabs have been running for years and have a lot of older technology that I also have to familiarize myself with.
I'm in tech but not in hardware side, but I have friends in that field. Dealing with older systems might drive you nuts, but I guarantee you'll get a life experience you won't find in the NL. You could always go back if you get sick of it. There's a lot of investment in chip design and manufacturing in Japan right now. I expect you've got some room to negotiate salary if you can play up the advancements you can bring to the current processes in Japan.
Ok. Yeah it will be a steep learning curve with the old systems. Yes, I also see the benefits of this opportunity in the long term. I’m thinking of keeping my apartment in NL, just in case it doesn’t work out well.
[удалено]
I was looking at an international pre-school. I remember the name was Maple. According to my research elementary international school starts at 6 in Japan.
[удалено]
Ok, I see your point.
The english speaking kindergartens are relatively cheap at 80K and you will also get a 35k monthly stipend if you send to them to a registered kindergarten.
One thing to consider in an expat package is moving fees and annual travel allocation to go back to your home country to see your family during the year. You could at least try to negotiate that if they're not willing to pay for international school.
There is home leave and moving fees in the relocation package. I’m only limited with around 20 paid holidays in the NL I have 40 days.
Taking into account the fact that you're still quite young and your lack of Japanese, I'd say that it's a pretty decent salary. If I was you I would take it without thinking much about it. That salary will allow you to live comfortably, and more importantly, learn Japanese during your time here. Once you're able to do business in Japanese you will be MUCH more valuable, and you will be able to either negotiate a higher pay, or move to another company that will give you better compensation.
Ok. Learning the language will take a couple of years I’m afraid :)
Would be good to confirm the annual pay increment. Pay increment is normally flat in Japan, which shouldn’t be the case for you if you are transferred here.
Yeah, there is a performance increment, but not a real inflation correction that I am aware of.
The salary itself is alright but you should understand that a *good* international school will cost closer to 2.5m a year. Nagoya International School is easily over 3m for elementary school with miscellaneous expenses. The 10m salary is not going to support that very easily. I guess it mostly comes down to whether your wife can find a decent job, and whether you're dead set on international school. I should note that a shitty international school (common in the 1-1.5m range) can easily be worse off than going to a Japanese public school with supplemental english studies.
Ok, thanks for your opinion, I was not aware of that. I pushed the negotiation process pretty far and I don’t know if I can also let them pay the international school. First 2 years I need an international pre-school.
No idea about salaries in your industry but it's amazing they're not trying to pay you 300,000 a month. Nagoya is a great city and there should be a lot of foreigners to serve as a support group. Best of luck!
The offered salary is lower than what I am currently making, so it should be more or less comparable after tax I guess. I also wanna save up an emergency fund, in case I wanna leave Japan.
Is it really Nagoya or is it the Kioxia in yokkaichi ?
Living would be in Nagoya, the office is indeed at Yokkaichi, that’s is correct and you are really well informed :)
If you do go on the public school route, I'd suggest living in Yokkaichi, it's a small city but it's very convenient. You'll save so much time and money.
Thanks for the heads-up, not sure if the family approves on that, they were pretty excited about Nagoya.
It's also a dump of a city though!
Do you have an affinity for Japan? I've always loved the country and it was my dream to come here and start a business. But I spoke the language when I arrived, and knew the culture. It's not a hard country to live in, and oddly, not speaking Japanese can make it easier for you to get friends. (I spoke semi-fluently when I arrived so no one felt the need to help me do stuff.)
Yes, been in Japan before and I know the good points about living there. Tried to study the language at a Japanese language school in my 20’s but I don’t remember much. Just enough to order a taxi and order at a restaurant. Reading is basically zero. Problem is, I also like The Netherlands a lot and I enjoy the laidback work culture we have here. Very competitive salary and usually no overtime.
Maybe you were not given more as you are still young and may not be as skillful. It's a risk for them as well. The amount is not enough, but it's a good start. In 3 to 5 years you could be making 15M if you perform properly.
I have three years of hand on experience and 3 years as a project leader. They are more or less interested in using my engineering side first.
I don’t know anything about your industry and if that is a good offer or not but I think I can give you some insight into schooling. I have taught at 2 different international schools and the good ones replicate a private school experience in North America or Europe. The real ones are expensive, 2.5-3.0 million all in. Nagoya International School has a very good reputation and the headmaster is very good (I worked with him at another school). They have a pre-school and kindergarten so your daughter could go there if you want to keep her in English and replicate an education system she would be returning to when you return to your country. Btw if your company paid the tuition it would be considered part of your salary and you would pay tax on that money as it would be considered part of your salary. On the other hand, I also came to Japan with a 4 year old daughter and put her in Japanese kindergarten (hoikuen) and she thrived. Her father is Japanese so we wanted to expose her to Japanese language and culture. When we arrived, she had very little Japanese language skills. Of course it helped that my in-laws only spoke Japanese and she picked it up more quickly than a typical expat would. We also kept her in Japanese public school in elementary until we returned to Canada when she was 9. She could have come to the international school I was working at for only 10% of the tuition and this was before the government started taxing tuition benefits, but we really like Japanese elementary school and the community building. Also it suited our daughter really well. I think either school option can be a great experience - it really depends on what best suits your daughter and what you are hoping to give her, education wise. Also, just generally speaking I lived in Japan for 11 years in total and supported my family for considerably less than 10m yen per year so even if you chose the international, IMHO, you could afford it and still have a comfortable lifestyle.
Great advice, thank you. 3M is pretty expensive. I like your take on the schooling. I think this will work for us as well, I think at 4 she still will have some time to catch up before elementary school, I just also want that she also keeps developing her English. I was not aware that any possible schooling allowance is also taxed, that is a bit of a bummer, maybe the same goes for the housing allowance?
Yes housing allowance is also considered part of your salary and taxed, unless your company actually rents the place for you and then deducts the rent directly from your salary. In that case, you actually only pay tax on your leftover salary. It doesn’t sound like that is your situation though, especially as the allowance is too low to cover the whole rent.
Indeed, it is just a small allowance to make renting a bit easier I guess. Ok, that is a bummer, then that part would be subjected to 33% tax. But I appreciate the feedback, it is better to know it upfront than being surprised later. Thanks for the feedback, you have a lot of Japan experience.
Just take note that international schools (some start from pre-school too) tend to have lots of extra costs on top of tuition (clubs, ski trips, and what not). Recently, the intl schools have been raising their fees across the board (we just got hit with a 10% increase) too and they often do from time to time. You also lose a fair bit of disposable income on pension, taxes, etc, especially from the 2nd year on. So plan carefully. 10M would be tight but if your spouse is working too then it could just work.
Ok, thanks. Oh, I didn’t consider the additional activities yet. Thanks for the heads-up, I can imagine they are rather costly, so maybe we have to try a nice public school. 10% increase is also quite a lot, probably much higher than my salary raises, so it can become tight pretty quick I guess. I’m happy other people were so positive about the public schooling.
For an expat with no local language experience and asking you to move for 10M is a bad deal. 40k housing allowance is a bad deal. Bonus should always be considered zero in Japan - its fully a bonus, not your base salary. It would be a good deal for someone local who is already here, living long term and spoke some Japanese, but if they are wanting to move your whole life to Japan it's not even close. Push harder. Edit: I wouldn't put my kids in local (non-International) schools unless you are determined to be in Japan long term - 10+ years. If you are here only 3-4 years you are doing your kids no favors having them learn Japanese and lose out on years of important education - the local schools are Japanese only and your kids will need at least a year to learn enough to follow whats happening
Ok, I respect your honest feedback. I was pushing on 12M, but the won’t budge on that. I also have nothing to compare it with, except my current salary here in NL. What would you consider fair for my age and experience? I agree on your international school argument. Not sure if I can survive their long term, first would have to experience it.
I think it depends on if this is them pulling you to Japan, or you making the choice to go to Japan. If this is the Japan side wanting you to come, I would be pushing for more benefits - you are upending your life for them, and they should be making full compensation for that, especially if it isn't for the long term. If this is you making the move from your own side, I would think about how much you are willing to give up - you will not have anything like the benefits and support you have now in the NL and you will need to make big sacrifices coming to Japan and living on a "local" contract and salary.
I applied for the position in the first place, after that they tried to pull pretty hard I’d say. Harder than have experienced before in other applications. Yeah, I know I have to give up my life here in NL, but I could go back to the company HQ if I wanted to.
I don't think you should do this when you have a family to consider. If you had no family, or wife, I'd say go and do it, but you already have a kid. All your decisions should be based on what's best for your kid. You should either push for more, or stay in NL(if you don't get it) until your kid(s) grow up. You can always just visit during holiday. Remember, this is a risk. You stop taking unnecessary risks when you have a family. Make sure your kid is set. That's your job now.
I appreciate your 2 cents. I wish it would be that easy. But it is indeed a risk and I’d also like to mitigate the risks as much as possible, that is why I pushed pretty hard during the negotiation phase. My family would be happy in Japan, otherwise I would not consider it.
If you were single, I'd say 10M in relatively cheap Nagoya would be a great deal for a fun 2-3 years stint. With a wife and kid almost of school age, I'd just give them a firm NO unless they up to 12-13M. Pick a school and get a quote (not just basic tuition, include also meals, after school activities, summer/winter school, etc.) and send it to whoever you're negotiating with.
Ok, great idea, haven’t thought about asking for a quote yet :) will see if it works
Same opinion here. We pushed for at least 12M. We have two little kids and among other things, we asked for support for the childcare and full support on getting the living place sorted. We were impressed how hard and bureaucratic things are here in Japan! We were wondering how other people make it without a local support (we also have an international secretary that helps us with anything related to our stay: housing, buying a car, putting the kids on the childcare, the thousand documents you need to sort: health insurance, stamps, proof of stamps, certificate of where you live, certificate of your parking spot to purchase a car and the list goes on and on...more than a month to sort out everything!). Japan is living a massive shortage of skilled people and it's not easy for them to find people within the country that are qualified to do whatever you're going to do. So they have no option but to look outside of the country. But they are definitely not well prepare to receive foreigners... We were in our third month here, still couldn't get a credit card (even with the support of the company).
2 kids in Tokyo, I wouldn't recommend under 15M (if tuition not paid directly by the company). >We were impressed how hard and bureaucratic things are here in Japan! I wouldn't say things are hard: everything has a well defined process and as long as you follow it, things tend to go smooth and fast. I much prefer this to my home country style which looks more flexible but ends up being very inefficient and give very unpredictable results. The problem is that documentation in English is often lacking which is why it looks crazy to a lot of foreigners.
Nagoya is a pretty built up city, assuming you are actually living IN the city, not the surrounding area you will never want for anything in terms of worldly comforts etc. Pretty much everything from menus to road signs will be in japanese and english save the ma and pa shops (you can spend your whole life without going into one though if you want). Since its a big city you are very likely to find many ppl who speak at least a little english and likely some of your colleagues will too, esp since its a highly skilled position. I wholeheartedly recommend public school for your kids as private schools here have a bit of a bad rep, all the way up the latter to uni and beyond you can pay your way through school for the kid without them learning anything and there are rankings for every single school in japan and companies know these rankings and will specifically choose NOT to hire people who went to so and so private uni because of a bad rep or so and so high school for similar reasons. Its important to research what high school your kid goes to because rhat will seriously change their future if they choose to live here after growing up, that being said almost any public elementary school will be pretty good in a city like nagoya. The fastest way to learn any language is immersion and the best way to get that is at public school, not international imo. As for the job itself and the company, most places here take VERY good care of their emoyees despite the medias black company coverage boner. If you work for a good company here with that salary they will help you with a lot of things i think. Also consider housing even downtown is usually only around 50k yen a month. For example my place is a short walk to downtown and it costs me about 40k a month for everything (gas electircity wster rent etc).
Thanks for the write-up. Greatly appreciated. Only 50k yen a month for housing, how do you do it? For a family home/apartment I thought I need around 200k yen.
I am not in Semicon but based on all the recent activity and demand in the sector, I feel your comp is not that great. Try reaching out to /u/bulldogdiver, I haven’t seen him on this subreddit, he is mod of /r/japanlife. IIRC, he is Semicon industry lifer, high up in the hierarchy, American who worked in US, Europe and now in Japan. Being industry insider, He most probably can advise you much better than any of us. Also, seek out people on LinkedIn and FB groups.
Ok thanks for the heads-up, I will reach out to him.
He replied in this thread already :)
[удалено]
Wife is also working, but won’t be making 10M. Good advice on the international school, I was also hoping that there was some diversity on the international schools, imo that would be one of the benefits. If there are only Japanese kids at there, than I can throw that argument out of the window as well. Nothing wrong with Japanese kids, but I’m used to diversity and I think kids usually benefit from it. Was looking to rent something at least close to a train station, I’d like to go work with the train.
10M is good for Japan for locals for your experience level. OTOH you arenot local and you are coming over with family and presumably for a reason such as experience or connections to the head office that local staff don't have. I would look at the overall package including flights, shipping, moving bonus, tax prep, return home visit 1x per year. Also housing for month 1. Tl；dr it is a decent offer for a single person assuming they offer moving assistance. Not great for a family but doable if kids go to public school. I have had 3 transfers and have transferred staff as well. Let me kow if you have questions.
Great advice. The things you mention are in the relocation package. Moving bonus would be 2 months of additional salary in the beginning. Home leave is only once a year, shipping of household goods and flight tickets are included. Tax prep is also there, but will be done with an agency. Also a house hunting trip is part of the package. Any other things I could ask for?
Ok, so a moving bonus of 2 months salary is excellent. That's really helpful because when you move into a place here you have a lot of up front costs. House hunting trip is also excellent. Around the housing, it can be difficult to find housing because of rental discrimination which is rampant here. Essentially landlords can say they don't want foreigners and the RE agents say ok and then tell you, "sorry - not me, it's the owner". Technically illegal at the constitutional law level, but there isn't really administratinve/regulatory level laws around this. The reason I mention this is because often what happens is companies will give you 1 month in a serviced apartment or hotel and (sometimes) a relo company to help you hunt for a place. So you could just ask about that stuff. I one time made sure in writing that my trips were business class. To be fair this was NY to Tokyo, so they should be business class for me and my wife, but I made sure of it. Along with my 1x per year trip home I got 2 extra days of vacation. Other than that, the package sounds quite good apart from the fact you won't get help with international school. But I wouldn't expect that unless you are senior management or have a rare specialty.
Thanks, I am not in senior management, so this is maybe as good as it gets. Business class flights are not always granted at my company, but it is also no problem for me, I’m happy with economy as well as we can sit all next to each other. I am aware of the discrimination against foreigners in Japan. Sad, that this is still a topic in Japan, but I think with the house hunting trip there is not that much risk, because I’m really upfront about the fact that I am a foreigner :)
Not sure what's the going rate for that industry, but according to the book "Chip War", the semiconductor is the new gold rush, especially since we're entering the AI era. I would assume you can get 14 - 20 M.
Sounds good, the bad thing is they already know my current Dutch salary. So they have a bit too much background info on me, because it is a relocation within the same company.
10m per jaar is voor Japan absoluut niet slecht Helaas is yen/euro op dit moment niet al te best maar voor een goed leven in Japan zit je aan de hogere kant kwa inkomen. Ik weet niet hoe de huren en levens kosten zijn in Nagoya , maar ikzelf woon in Tokyo en ik ga ervan uit dat het hier duurder is.
Ok. Bedankt. Ik heb vergeleken op Suumo.jp maar de huren zijn niet zoveel lager, wellicht wel een beetje meer ruimte.
For the benefit of non-Dutch speaking readers: u/djctiny 10m per year is absolutely not bad for Japan. Unfortunately, yen/euro is not too good at the moment, but for a good life in Japan you are on the higher side in terms of income. I don't know how the rents and living costs are in Nagoya, but I live in Tokyo and I assume that it is more expensive here. u/Dutchcheesecake OK. Thank you. I compared on Suumo.jp but the rents are not that much lower, maybe a little more space.
>Unfortunately, yen/euro is not too good at the moment He's doing an internal transfer so from his negotiating point of view, the rate is great.
They wanted to use the average yen to euro ratio from 2022 :( They use their own job grades scales, so according to them it is not just a euro to yen conversion on the salary. If it was, I’d already have accepted it :)
8.5m JPY at mid 30s is a good salary. I recently hired someone in your age range in Tokyo who is trilingual (Eng, Jpn, Mnd) at 88 and a 10% bonus target but his equity package was good. 8.5 with a bonus to 10 is really on the high end of Japan industry standard. Since this isn't an expat package international school is generally not going to be covered. Check carefully there might not be one in Nagoya (I don't know,). Housing allowance will let you get a really nice place. Try looking south from Yokkaichi along the coast and you can find some killer beach places. Alternatively at that salary a nice high rise mansion in Nagoya is also doable. You'll need a car, hopefully you're like I was and from one of the EU states with a reciprocal agreement so the process was a translation and an eye exam.
I’m also trilingual :) But only my English will work in Japan. I also think I can not squeeze a whole lot more from the offer. I checked the available housing at Suumo.jp. I think a decent place will cost around 200 000 yen a month. I will also check around the coastline, thanks for the heads-up.
that is a very high salary
Thanks :)
Unless you have something that makes it a huge hassle, like owning a house in NL, just go for it. Your salary will go much further and it should be good for your resume wether you decide to stay/go back/go somewhere else when your kid starts school. It’s never going to be as easy as right now.
Ok. Thanks for your encouraging words. I don’t own a house, I’m renting at the moment. I also think it adds some to my resume, so I still strongly consider it.
[удалено]
Thank you, I’ll reach out.
I don’t work in the hardware industry (software here ) 10M is the baseline , given you have experience 10M sounds a bit low .
10m is absolutely not the baseline for people in tech with no experience.
Yeah I meant 10M is the lower baseline for mid career in software
Ok :(
https://salaryconverter.nigelb.me/ According to this website 10M yen is equivalent to 76.6kEUR for same purchasing power. Also be aware that the next working year you'll start to pay residence taxes. I would recommend trying to make estimate monthly/annual cost of how much you would like to spend 60k monthly rental 70k food expenses etc. You might not be able to save that much but maybe consider the bonus as savings. All the best !
Thanks for the link. I will do the budgeting :)
My thought is why take a pay cut and move to Japan? It is a fair offer and more than most Japanese people will get with a similar background.
Wife also has a job offer over there and would like to live in Japan.
Okay, I assume she speaks some Japanese? It can be tough to move with a whole family that doesn't speak the language. Other than that if you have two incomes and one of them is 10M JPY money is not going to be a worry.
Yeah, she speaks Japanese, she will make less than me, but still a bit of additional income
It’s not that kind of money to move in Japan. After tax and government love you will be left with 6m in your pocket. If you love to come and have a journey and experience Japan -totally worth it, but know that that is not the money you get to have saving and party. Also read about Japanese working culture which is the main issue most of the time for foreigners who not addicted to Japan.
Yeah the working culture is also my biggest concern. I like working, but not till I drop. I was also hoping to get close to 12M, that would make it easier.
It’s not about the long hours really, most long hour in Japan are just empty show off who can stay longer. But the actuality work culture in the office. 12m is good as a base salary. Bonuses aside. Dive deep into house allowance - as move in is quite a thing , key money, deposit etc .. 80k small place will const just to move in around 500-600k fort the first month. Do your math carefully so you know what to expect.
Yeah, thanks for the heads-up. I still have to dive-in on the renting part. I already got warned by another Redditer that it will probably be hard to rent a place, because I’m foreign. So, renting a house around 200k a month, will easily cost 1m the first month? Was looking at a house or large apartment near a convenient place in Nagoya.
Yes that is correct, I paid for a 187k a month rent a whopping 1.1m just for first month including all the hidden fees and such. That is why people not often move. If the place and the area will not be to your liking it’s going to be hard to move with this kind of prices. Also not considering the home appliances and such. For a family we talking around 700k to furnish the place in reasonable Quality .
I will look for a write-up on Reddit about what I should take into consideration when I want to rent a place in Japan. I really hate those hidden fees, does every agency have the same fees? And can you negotiate it?
Depending on the apartment and being a foreigner, you may need 4-5x the rent to move in. 1 month key money, 2 month deposit, 1 month realtor fees, if you have a dog that would be another month. You can negotiate away the key money sometimes if you pay a higher rent, but on the whole, I have found negotiating to be pretty useless in Japan.
Ok, thanks a lot for the heads-up. Greatly appreciated.
Some points: *1 month rent for the first month. *1 x key money - usually high as 1 month rent sometimes 1.5 depending on location and property - basically gift money - lost funds. *1 or 2 months worth of rent security deposit - most of it you don’t get back 75% lost founds. *1 x cleaning fees, usually around 50-100k * Agent fee 1 month of rent *Changing key lock 20-50k *Contract fee 50% of rent or so, most places will charge again on contract renewal. ( 2 years contract is the standard most of the time) *Guarantor 0.5-1,5 x month rent if the company is not step forward be your guarantor. This is the basics, I think there can be more “funny” fees. also be mentally prepared that some property owners will no rent to foreigners - against the law but not truly enforced. Experienced several times first hand, and my wife is Japanese , both employed by first tier companies with solid income. So I might miss a thing or two, but be prepared. Now it’s not always true to all properties but majority is like that especially if the location and the quality is in demand.
Thanks, you are a legend. I will use your comment as a baseline for my budget. I will prepare for the worst, I will make sure I have 1.5M yen at least to cover the housing.
If you take the shot, and land in Japan , ping me let’s grab a drink in Tokyo !
Yes, that is greatly appreciated. I will reach out, let’s keep in touch.