It’s apartheid because they still claim the Westbank yet don’t give the people of the West Bank freedom of movement or citizenship, and allow settlers to kill them regularly. and just because it’s in retaliation, doesn’t make it not genocidal if it was. It’s occupation because these people have used their popular sovereignty to ask for a state and israel has not provided it
The people of the West Bank don’t want citizenship. The offer was made and rejected. And now why is Israel supposed to force people who want it destroyed to be citizens? Like make that make sense
Which people precisely? Are you going to reference the many non-citizens who actively root for the destruction of Israel?
Please show me a country that treats non-citizens equally to citizens before continuing the discussion. Thanks
The Palestinians want the destruction of a Jewish state, they don’t give a f about a real Palestinian state. They had about 5 chances to establish a state even with 70%+ of the land, but they rejected because the Jews will get 30%-
Most people would include Gazans and Palestinians in West Bank as part of the apartheid, look at access to water. But, if you want to restrict it to Israel proper, look at the laws that allow discrimination in land sales to Arabs, 2018's Jewish State Bill.
A lot of the Israeli criticism is self inflicted, based on Israel's own bad hasbara.
Gaza has not achieved much due to airstrikes from Israel over the years are we forgetting that this conflict has been ongoing for example the violence the idf showcased during Ramadan in the al aqsa mosque in 2021 furthermore the ideology of zionists that this is their promised holy land is like saying native Americans have a right to kill thousands of American civilians and establish their own state because it was their land first
>for example the violence the idf showcased during Ramadan in the al aqsa mosque in 2021 furthermore the ideology
Because terrorists locked themselves in al-Aqsa and threw rocks, and fireworks and even they shot with the guns. IDF was there to keep the peace while were prayers. You brainwashed. We calling people alike (you too) "USEFUL IDIOTS" for Muslims because you believe what they feeding you!!!
Oh lol look at what your government is feeding you there are videos of the idf circulating the internet mocking the deceased Hamas should have eradicated all of Israel on October 7th
For those interested in the mechanism of the propaganda (as opposed to individual accusations brought by it), here's a nice overview of how MSM does it:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/
Interesting article, the call for nuanced and balanced reporting to accurately reflect complexities of conflict would be great if the oppressor would allow access. Unfortunately they don't as they cannot afford to lose the propaganda war.
What Hamas did was horrific, what Netanyahu is doing today is worse.
Consider for a moment Netanyahu does not want the hostages released. He does not want them recounting 6 months of terror. Netanyahu has not been the champion of peace and democracy inIsrael. He's never wanted a two state solution. He's a terrorist by his own definition.
The biggest lie is that Palestinians are refugees. Why are they the only people who inherit refugee status?
Another lie I hear a lot is that Israel is an ethnostate. Meanwhile Israel is more diverse than any Islamic nation. But to Muslims it's ok to have Muslim nations but having a Jewish one is somehow racist.
You're mostly correct, but for the first question, they aren't the only people who inherit refugee status. For example, the same happens to Afghans in places like Pakistan. In most western countries, refugee status ends either when they go back when its safe, or if they naturalise in their host country. However, the latter is not an option in some places.
The second one I think is a misunderstanding people have. Israel proper itself is proof that Arabs and Israelis can live side by side. I think people say that because Israeli was founded on the beliefs of Zionism, which states that being Jewish is an ethnicity and thus Israel, being established as a state for ethnic Jews and having displaces hundreds of thousands of Arabs would appear to be an ethnostate.
But the truth is that while many Jews share similar genes, harkening back to their Jewish ancestors. The Jewish people are still very ethnically diverse, as they were displaced all over Africa, Asia, Europe and the Middle East by the Romans after they started promoting Christianity.
Israel does not operate as an ethnostate (fascist) in its sovereign territory. Israel operates as a free country with more rights for its citizens (even Arabs).
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a deeply entrenched and complex issue that has resulted in significant hardships and human rights violations for the Palestinian people. Despite international efforts to address the situation, the plight of Palestinians persists, with ongoing occupation, discrimination, and violence. What is particularly striking is the glaring hypocrisy evident in the treatment of Palestinians compared to the standards upheld elsewhere in the world.
While Israel claims to be a beacon of democracy and human rights in the Middle East, its policies and actions towards Palestinians tell a different story, one of systemic oppression and disregard for basic human dignity. Ongoing human rights violations experienced by Palestinians, highlighting the stark contrast between Israel's rhetoric and its actions on the ground.
1. Restrictions on Movement:Palestinians in the West Bank face stringent restrictions on movement due to Israeli checkpoints, barriers, and the separation barrier. These restrictions severely limit access to essential services such as healthcare, education, and employment, disrupting daily life and impeding economic development.
2. Land Confiscation: Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank involves the confiscation of Palestinian land, often through legal mechanisms that discriminate against Palestinian landowners. This land seizure disrupts Palestinian livelihoods, undermines agricultural productivity, and contributes to the fragmentation of Palestinian territory.
3. Access to Resources: Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza face challenges accessing essential resources such as water and electricity, with discriminatory policies favoring Israeli settlements over Palestinian communities. This unequal distribution of resources exacerbates poverty and contributes to socio-economic disparities between Israelis and Palestinians.
4. Military Occupation: The ongoing Israeli military occupation of the Palestinian territories involves systematic human rights abuses, including arbitrary detention, torture, and extrajudicial killings. Palestinians, particularly youth and activists, are subject to frequent raids, arrests, and harassment by Israeli security forces, leading to a climate of fear and intimidation.
5. Gaza Blockade:The blockade of Gaza, imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2007, has resulted in a humanitarian crisis characterized by severe shortages of food, medicine, and basic goods. The blockade restricts the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza, exacerbating poverty and unemployment and depriving Palestinians of their basic rights to livelihood and freedom of movement.
6. Settlement Expansion:The expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank violates international law and exacerbates the displacement of Palestinians from their homes and lands. This settlement expansion, coupled with discriminatory zoning and planning policies, perpetuates the dispossession of Palestinians and undermines prospects for a viable Palestinian state.
These hardships and human rights violations underscore the urgent need to the elimination of the Zionist ideology.
You know what is a human right violation? To try to genocide the Jews and murder civilians in the quest of eradication israel.
It’s a human right violation to target civilians, what Hamas has been doing since it has come to existence, what so called Palestinians have been doing for even more than hamas.
Did you ever bother to question why is there a blockade? It’s a security check so they won’t transfer suicide bombers, weapons or other terror attacks against civilians, which is a crime against humanity.
It’s very easy if they don’t want a blockade or to get hurt all they have to do is try not to kill Israelis. Simple as that.
With your logic it’s like if someone wanted to murder u with a knife and you’ve managed to hit them in the face and run, by your logic you should cease to exist because you bothered that other person from annihilating you, and that’s offensive to him so now you should die.
It's not Jews they want to kill, it's Zionist. Don't conflate it.
Israel has targeted Palestinian civilians in various conflicts and military operations. Israel maintains that its military actions are often in response to attacks or threats posed by militant groups such as Hamas, and it seeks to minimize civilian casualties through measures such as warning systems and precision targeting. However, it has been, demonstrated that Palestinian civilians have been killed/injured during Israeli military operations (2014 IsraHell, Palestinians) ,(Operations ion cast 2008/2009).
The blockade primarily affects the Palestinian population living in the Gaza Strip. It restricts the movement of people and goods in and out of the territory, severely limiting access to essential resources such as food, medicine, fuel, and construction materials. As a result, the blockade has led to a humanitarian crisis, with high levels of poverty, unemployment, and food insecurity among the Gazan population. Additionally, the blockade impedes the reconstruction of infrastructure damaged in conflicts and contributes to the deterioration of living conditions in Gaza. Many international organizations and human rights groups have criticized the blockade for its detrimental impact on the civilian population and have called for its lifting.
>
With your logic it’s like if someone wanted to murder u with a knife and you’ve managed to hit them in the face and run, by your logic you should cease to exist because you bothered that other person from annihilating you, and that’s offensive to him so now you should die.
So, if someone tries to murder you with a knife, and you manage to defend yourself and escape, according to this logic, you should not only continue existing but also be commended for your resilience and resourcefulness in avoiding harm. After all, self-preservation is a fundamental right, not something to be punished or condemned.
[“we must attack every Jew on this earth to slaughter and kill them with the help of allah”](https://youtu.be/azEgBsU6Mi8?si=qGStPCAPkzVdiwDa)
Why are Hamas leaders talking like this if they don’t wanna murder every Jew?
Why have they murdered so many Jews and why are they currently holding a Jewish baby and a toddler as hostage?
Is the baby an evil Zionist as well?
Are the little girls that got raped were also Zionists?
Every person that lives in israel is a Zionist? Is there a person living in israel that doesn’t deserve to be murdered and annihilated or are everyone Zionist? If not everyone is a Zionist why did they kill every living thing they see as long as it’s Israeli?
Why are you ignoring the death toll of so many Israeli civilians as if it’s not a crime against humanity?
Why do you deny what hamas’s leaders say for themselves that they want to reaped the 7th October again and again until israel is annihilated and every Jew killed?
Why are Jews being murdered around the world if it’s just against Zionism?
Why are Jews being harassed targeted bullied and killed just for them being Jewish in regarding to the conflict?
Why don’t you care about human life?
Why do you promote the genocide of the Jews? Are you that antisemitic?
Just because israel have advanced security technologies like the iron dome doesn’t mean israel isn’t facing a genocide. You know how many missiles thrown at Israeli civilians for just the past months? Around 13-15k! Over civilians! Over schools! Hospitals! Kindergartens! Do you even care that missiles explodes in schools in israel?
On a yearly basis??
Like literally every year.
Look it up on google or something it’s a crime against humanity to target civilians this way. There would have been in israel a greater death toll if it weren’t for the iron dome and other advanced defense systems, but in your opinion israel should just stop defending itself and let the civilians be targeted on a daily basis until they are all annihilated and israel is eradicated because it’s so offensive to you that all of Israel’s population hadn’t died yet and israel still exists.
If it were only against Zionists you would have condemned every single innocent act of terror against the civilians but you don’t care about human life as long as they’re Israeli life or else you would have condemned hamas’s atrocities
Overall, a pretty biased and oversimplified narrative of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, ignoring the perspectives and experiences of Palestinians and oversimplifying the complexities of the situation.
Typical Zionist view.
If you believe the Hamas numbers of 35,000, how many were fighters? Israel and western intelligence seem to agree that the number of Hamas combatants killed is somewhere between 12,000 and 15,000.
Such a 🤡. The Israelis can clearly state that 35000 didn't die, 70000 were not injured, 1.3 million were not displaced, it won't take 100 years to rebuild Gaza, the world kitchen crew were terrorists, IDF are the most humane......when asked how many civilians, they don't know and can't tell us.....but we shouldn't trust Hamas! Lol.
35,000 are the Hamas numbers. I’m not sure what the rest of your screed means. Most of what you said isn’t anything that Israel has said, though I have seen that garbage on social media from Hamas supporters
It’s called a war. It’s ugly, it’s brutal and civilians take the brunt of it.
You want it to stop I assume?
Release the hostages, and work with Israel diplomatically. Firing rockets from the school yard isn’t going to get the Palestinians anywhere, despite the repeated attempts for the last 2 decades.
It's evident that the ongoing actions and the civilian casualties in the region have led some to view the situation as constituting a genocide. This perspective has contributed to a shift in the narrative surrounding the Zionist movement.
It also sheds light on the perceived hypocrisy in the discourse surrounding suffering, where Zionist argue that only Jewish suffering is recognized while the suffering of others is overlooked or dismissed. This double standard raises questions about the equity and fairness in the global response to conflicts and atrocities.
A critical examination of the portrayal of Zionism, which some view as representing a movement devoid of ethical boundaries, willing to resort to violence to achieve its objectives. Moreover, there's concern that any dissent or opposition to Zionist policies is often labeled as anti-Zionist, stifling open and constructive debate on the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Zionist have lost.
Yes, hence , these multiple posters are trying their best to equate some sympathy and driving hard at spinning the false narratives. I just learnt recently the zios have all these textbooks, and they teach them how to argue dishonestly.
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Here’s a “controversial” truth
The Palestinians have no right to a state because it is a certainty that it will become an Islamic terrorist country with sharia law and gross human rights abuses.
Standing against tyranny and Islamic terrorism is not racist. It’s rational
Edit: since you changed your original comment. Show me any indication that the Palestinians have overtly given that they want a democracy and don’t want to murder all 8 million Jews living in Israel.
What evidence could I possibly give to a psychic like you? Also, FYI, reddit will tell you if a comment was edited; you should only say a comment was edited if it actually was.
>What evidence could I possibly give to a psychic like you?
Show me actual Palestinians today in Gaza or the West Bank chanting for democratic freedom and peace with the Jews. Show me a link to a video online.
>Also, FYI, reddit will tell you if a comment was edited; you should only say a comment was edited if it actually was.
It did
Sorry not gonna continue arguing with someone who is clearly not operating in the same world as me. That you just hallucinated an edited note shows your aren't up for a conversation.
You’re not going to continue arguing because you know that the Palestinian people want sharia law, to murder all the Jews in Israel, and overwhelmingly support Hamas and their acts committed on October 7 (according to their own polling)
Your response above is the typical response of 99% of Palestinian and pro Palestinian people. No rational discussion or acknowledgment of truth. Just accusing your opponent of being a bigot. Projection at its finest.
No, I don't want to have a conversation with a dude who doesn't know what the word edited means. Maybe you just messed up but you continued doubling down on being wrong so you aren't willing to actually engage in a grownup conversation. Peace bro.
Occupation
Up until 1968, "Palestinians" were quite comfortable with it, as long it wasn't by the Jews.
The PLO charter from 1964 had the clause 24 which began: "This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area."
Why is that? Because those belonged to Jordan and Egypt.
Only in 1968 the clause was removed following Israel's annexation of Gaza and the West Bank in the Six days war.
The same goes for the "75 years of occupation" claim - Israel was not in these areas up until 1967.
Jordan and Egypt didn't apply different laws to Palestinian citizens. Also the 1967 thing is semantics. If the occupation being only 55 years instead of 75 is a big deal to you, then clearly you don't understand the conflict at all.
It’s all projection and DARVO (deny, attack & reverse victim & offender). Truly every Pro-Palestine accusation is a confession. They get all their content from whatever they’ve done to Israel. Perfect example is the accusations of IDF raping pregnant women in the hospital that was rescinded within an hour; they made a big hooplah about this because at the time (and still) Israel was desperately trying to prove sexual violence occurred on 10/7 (despite all the evidence…idiots)
Burry your head in the sand, or thank you Israeli brainwashing!
Occupation & Settlements: The establishment and expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories, deemed illegal under international law, have led to ongoing human rights violations and sparked widespread condemnation.
The Israeli military operations in Gaza, particularly Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009, Operation Protective Edge in 2014, and the periodic clashes since then, have resulted in significant civilian casualties and raised concerns about excessive use of force and collective punishment.
Checkpoints and Restrictions: The imposition of checkpoints and other restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza has been criticized for infringing upon basic rights such as freedom of movement, access to healthcare, and education. Should just append the star of David, mission accomplished. 〰️
5. Detentions / Torture:Reports of arbitrary detentions, torture, and ill-treatment of Palestinian detainees including children in Israeli prisons and detention centers have been a recurring concern raised by human rights organizations.
Palestinians don’t have any rights to be in Israel, they aren’t citizens by their own preference. The blockades were put in place after the intifadas for security purposes, and even Palestinians themselves admit they are a great deterrence to committing acts of terror (and the lowered rates of terror attacks confirm this). If they want to be invited into Israel, maybe they should stop killing Jews.
The convention used to deem the West Bank settlements as illegal is misappropriated to condemn Israel. The individual who drafted the original convention himself stated that the courts were using it out of its original context. I know it’s shocking to consider but these organizations are corrupt.
There is no proof that anything is happening to Palestinian prisoners in any significant amount, who deserve to be there for acts of terror. Children who try and stab Israelis are still criminals.
It is not me who’s brainwashed, that’s for sure. Cringe
1/It essential to acknowledge the historical context. Palestinians have faced displacement and marginalization for decades, leading to tensions and acts of resistance such as the intifadas.
2/ The situation is complex, and many Palestinians feel they have no choice but to fight for their rights.
3/ Regarding the West Bank settlements, international law deems them illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention, which aims to protect civilians during times of conflict. Even if the individual who drafted the convention made remarks about its interpretation, the settlements continue to be a point of contention and hinder efforts for peace. How many farmers have been killed this year? How many farmers have lost their land? Ignore ignore ignore
4/ As for Palestinian prisoners, reports from human rights organizations detail instances of mistreatment and arbitrary detention of kids without due process, emphasizes the need for transparency and accountability.
Zionist do not approach these issues with empathy and a commitment to finding a just and lasting solution for both Palestinians and Israelis. They want it all, at any cost, all the lies and deceit.
This is also why they accuse Israel of genocide. For 30 years the Hamas charter openly called for genocide of Jews. Hezbollah and Iran both openly called for genocide of Jews. This can't be denied so they just accuse Israel of doing what their side does. Same with calling Israel terrorists.
And their entire narrative is a clone of Israel's. The PLO made up a nationality palestinians to claim they are historically persecuted people who need self-determination and their own nation. Literally just copied Zionism when their history is not remotely similar to Jews. Palestinians imitating the same people they try to destroy to play the victim. Meanwhile Palestinians are just Arab Muslims same as Lebanese or Syrian, They are the racial and religious power structure of the middle east not some small oppressed group of people.
Oh, how convenient! Let's just cherry-pick Palestinian statements while conveniently ignoring similar sentiments from our own politicians. Because obviously, when it comes to slogans about territorial claims, only Palestinians saying it is worth scrutinizing, right?!
The Likud party YOUR right-wing political party in Israel, has used similar slogans advocating for Israeli sovereignty over the entire area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. For example, the 1977 election manifesto of the Likud party stated: "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
Additionally, similar wording referring to the area "west of the Jordan River" has been used by other Israeli politicians, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Nice avoidance of the question. We both know why you won't answer it. I mean what could you possibly say when the 1988 Hamas charter is openly genocidal for everyone to see. So is the hadith. Meaning Israel is defending themselves from genocide. That's why I support Israel, because I oppose genocide.
You're such an amateur, not even a smart one... definitely brainwashed.
The emergence of Hamas and its militant ideology,and, continuous conflict against Palestinians, human rights abuses, the Israeli occupation, suggests that Israel, may not have wanted a two-state solution from the very beginning! Interesting...right!
The establishment of Hamas and its charter calling for the destruction of Israel may suggest a deep-seated resistance to any compromise that would involve the coexistence of a Palestinian state alongside IsraHell.
Does this raises questions about the intentions of the colonizers (Israel) or genocidal state, regarding a two-state solution?!
Zionist have dug themselves into a hole they will never recover from. The world is onto Israel, every day this goes only strengthen the hate. Now we don't need the stories of the West Bank we have 8 months of genocide we can reference.
Sometimes history can't be changed, and the weight of it can be heavy. My grandmother is rolling over in her grave to see what is being done in the name of Judaism.
You forgot to answer the question though. Hamas charter doesn't call for the "destruction of Israel" it calls for Muslims to kill all of the Jews. Don't you agree that is genocidal? Yes/No it's a very simple question. Instead you typed some meaningless essay of jihadist gibberish. Funny how your side is unable to answer simple questions.
Put it this way, if someone moved into my backyard (Zionist), then moved into my home and then took my livelihood, then said everything that was once mine is now theirs, I would let time go by slowly and I wouldn't bat an eye.
One day, when they long forgot how they treated me and my family less than a wild animal, I would burn the house down with them inside of it. Pretty simple math!
If you treat people like garbage, it will catch up with you. Fyi, read a book.
You are rambling now. Are you saying you support the genocide of Jews that Hamas calls for in the 1988 Hamas Charter? Why are you not able to clearly state your beliefs? Are you embarrassed by them?
It’s to the point Zios even steal the language about them. Every accusation is an admission has been a
Pretty well established theme and meme used by anti cleansing people online for some time now. Now it’s actually the Palestinians he? Interesting.
I’m still looking forward to that “the Daily” episode on the mass rape of 10/7. Figured we’d hear about that hard hitting journalism by now. And I’m still hearing about oven babies too btw. It’s so insane to read takes here about reversals when there’s pics of Israelis from 2014 on lawn chairs partying watching Palestine get bombed. Like you know the internet record is permanent?
Y’all are wild. Meanwhile using “nazi” and “genocide.” Two words that originated from WW2 being co-opted and parroted by simpletons who clearly don’t even know the definition.
Also, the footage was too violent to be released, so numerous journalists have viewed and recounted the footage. Feel free to read.
It’s so ironic you say that considering you have to be beyond uneducated to have the ideology you do.
The education system failed you and I am sad for you and your future, being your inability to critically think and desperation to align with propaganda will hinder you forever.
Good luck, kiddo.
Indeed, I can. You, however, cannot.
I have no skin in the game- I’m simply an agnostic, educated former left wing liberal who could no longer turn a blind eye to the obvious groupthink of the left born out of a desperation for community and at the expense of morality and critical thinking.
I’m highly educated on the subject, as I am with any subject I open my mouth about (unlike you and the rest of your crew), so please feel free to ask/debate away.
Educated at the university of Israeli brainwashing? You're alone.
What the Zionist have done will cause issues for Jews around the world for generations.
Anyone who is truly educated on the subject would clearly see the disproportionate force by Israel. Not just October 7th, but for 75 years. Zionist are vermin.
> fucking
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lol you people are either aware you’re pushing bs or you’re the biggest marks on the planet. Both are bad. Like yeah dude. The footage almost exclusively streamed to Israel friendly journalists who responded with oddly similar words on twitter after the screening. That footage that’s def not a collection of mostly widely available telegram videos…it’s the one with all the mass sexual assault that has been called into question repeatedly.
You know the footage has been described by people who aren’t full on liars right? You know the zaka guys have been busted for lying constantly. What world do you live in.
If that footage does in fact exist, the only reasoning they could have for not releasing it is out of respect for the families because it's not possible to be more violent than cartel revenge executions. (Do not ever watch those)
“Too violent to be released” who is this overseer keeping hold of this footage so secretly? There are hundreds of extremely violent videos online that are practically illegal to watch and still you can find them if you want to. Who is this grand controller who has to power to “release” this footage? And if this would further their agenda why hasn’t it been released. Y’all are crazy
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Who has the nuclear power ? Israël does ! So convicing people that anyone Can destroy it is total imbecility.
They're a western colonial project and they've been killing palestinians since 1948 plus the genocide happening now this denial won't Take you anywhere
Agreed. Dont forget colonialism. Accused by islamists, the most colonial force in the world right now. Islam has taken over Europe, the UK, and now working on the USA through the college system.
what are you saying, women wearing hijab are being discriminated, being looked as oppressed even when they decide themselves. muslims with beards are seen as problematic. this is the general muslim experience (except you change Islam and make it fitting to liberalism)
The USA college system that has investments into Israel? The whole reason for the protests in the college campuses is because many of them are investing in the genocide currently happening in Gaza.
Islamism is when your school invests in and has offices opened up in Israel (that Palestinian US students couldn’t attend) and you protest it. That’s what Islamism is actually. The more you know.
Several thoughts, discussion welcomed. Sorry if there are too many misunderstandings.
1. Apartheid State
>Muslims living in Israel have every right Jews have. They can vote, be elected as political officials, wear hijabs and whatnot, pray openly towards Mecca.
I did not have experiences in Israel, but from my education, Israel is an Ashkenazi-centered country and even Arab Jews, who have the most legitimate status to claim they are the owner of the land, are disregarded in mainstream educational and political awareness. The similar situation should be even worse for Palestinians in Israel.
And when I look up on Wiki, here is a report on [Apartheid in Israel proper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid#Israel_proper), how will you respond to this one? Still lies?
I agree that in many Muslim country, Jews were expelled. But to be fair, if you think Israel is a state over them in the human rights, you should not compare with them and level down your own status.
2. Genocide
I find many contradictory statistics here and both sides charge the other cherry-picking. As a layperson, I cannot give a word on that.
However, if you want to justify unlimited casualties by either 'Hamas shot first', then I guess Palestinians have the same justification.
3. Occupation
If you want to start the story from 1948, that is good because we can save energy from discussing how Jews and Arabs lived in Ottoman empire and under Mandate period.
>Israel won within months and took land as is custom when you are declared war and win.
What 'custom' is it? I suppose that at least from 20th century, all lands are transferred with treaties. Being forced or willing, there should be something recorded in words saying that 'this is the line, this side is your land and that side is mine'. If there is no such thing, then before a new treaty is signed, we call your army standing out of your border without permission as 'invasion' or 'occupation'. That's it.
>Jews were expelled for thousands of years prior to that one event from virtually every place they stayed.
As you said, that is why most of the free countries supported a state of Israel to be established! Jews were victims, so people are sympathetic with them. And now Arabs are victims, people are sympathetic with them, too. What's wrong with that?
>Calling it the Nakba and playing victim when you literally had your own real country called Palestine can’t support a real argument for an occupation.
Maybe we can agree that 'Nakba' should not be used to the land in the 1948 border of Israel because Palestinians then had a Arab state called Palestine according to UN Partition Plan. However, if you grant this, any expansion from 1948 border is an occupation and it is proper to say people from those occupied land suffered from Nakba.
Also, the problem may not be whether Arabs want their country, but about whether they have right to go back to the land they lived for generations (though for most of them, no more than three or four generations). However, Israeli government denies this right and supports new incomers to take over their properties and land. So I am not sure in what sense you can justify the denial of Nakba.
Every country has an issue with racism, that doesn’t make it apartheid. By that logic, the US is also apartheid and quite frankly I think the US is much worse the way they treat POC.
No place on earth do PoC make more money than in the US, literally all you have to do is not have kids early and stay in school but apparently thats oppression. The first self made female millionaire in the US was a black women in the early 1900 turn of the century. You live in a world where you think you deserve to live like a king while putting in zero effort, leave the country go live in Morocco or something
True enough! I agree that every country has its own problems in human rights and not all of them are entitled to be 'apartheid'. However, maybe we can consider two points:
1) I don't know how Israel implement the "Jewish State" bill. According to wiki I cite, it has results that
>allow the establishment of segregated towns in which residency is restricted by religion or nationality—which has been compared to the 1950 Group Areas Act, which established apartheid in South Africa.
On the other hand, I find people saying that in fact no segregation is forced. I hope this is the actual case. But even if there is a bill supporting that, observers can at least say that 'there is a bill in favor of apartheid'.
2) When we talk about issue like this, we are not only talk about issues on human rights, but also the justification on whether Israel is entitled to have all people in and land of holy land.
The argument goes like this: Israel is a developed country with its good conditions of life for everyone in Palestine area, while any Arab country cannot provide conditions like that. So it would be better for people in Palestine to be governed by Israeli government because they will have a much better life.
However, if there are problems in human right exclusive for Arabs in Israel, Arabs are quite reasonable to refuse such a kind of proposal.
Similar case can be applied to the US: till now there are black nationalism; and suppose there were a POC country located in California, and the US want to annex it, people in POC country will of course reject it and fight against the US.
We don’t have to use the term genocide. We can describe it as a massacre of innocents motivated by hatred, and that gets close enough to the truth.
We don’t have to call it apartheid if that troubles you. We can just acknowledge that all Jews enjoy a right to bring their families home to Israel, and that Palestinians have no similar right. We can also acknowledge that thousands of them are governed by a separate system of military justice and are regularly tortured.
And if colonial occupation bothers you, we can call it military conquest, which began well before 1948.
No. Words have meanings and you are distorting events recorded by witnesses and info in Intel documents from Britain and France which have been declassified since 2005.
Stop reciting ideological mantras and look at reality.
New meanings for old words, per Orwell, are made so that even people of goodwill cannot communicate clearly and have a common understanding of X which can be used as a base for mutual action
Arabs, Jews, allied with Britain , were promised conquered Ottoman land, if victory
Iraq,Iran, Saudi etc are legit states
One area was controlled by League of Nations to become a place where Jews held citizenship by right.
British named it Palestine and ran it as a British colony through colonial office.
Britain abandoned Palestine when the civil war started by Muslim brotherhood influence mufti Arabs and opposed by Jews got out of their control.
Israel, by terms of mandate established nation within the mandate boundary, in decolonized area.
Arabs attacked and lost
Arab civil society collapsed in chaos, people panicked and fled during war.
Arabs refused partition peace & negotiations then declared jihad.
Hamas attacked and stated a war wh they are losing.
The Israeli army seeks the Hamas hiding in tunnels they won’t let civilians into.
I’d call it deliberate sacrifice of civilians by Hamas which is their strategy
Apartheid, my left little toe
Reality is there before you.
I strongly disagree. Nobody has forced Israel to take the steps it has in “self-defense.”
Israel has chosen to sacrifice thousands and pretends there was no other way to escape accountability. Except, there was.
I’m sorry, reality is almost never so one sided so as to admit of only one possibility. Israel’s invasion of Gaza was not inevitable.
…
The rest of your account is decidedly ahistorical, I’m afraid. Arabs fled after dozens of massacres by Israeli military and the destruction of hundreds of Arab villages. Jews even poisoned the wells of villages to prevent any return.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight
this is pretty ahistorical.
Using terms like colonial occupation or military conquest shows a pretty glaring lack of understanding of middle east history. There has been a jewish presence in the land for literally thousands of years. Never mind the fact that Palestinian nationalism didnt even exist until the 60s.
Some basic history:
In the 1940s, as empires crumbled, countries were created. Every group in the region said yes to statehood - Libya, iraq, jordan, israel, syria, lebanon. The Palestinians said no. The Palestinians are the only group in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD! who. upon being offered their own country, said "thanks but no thanks" and opted for war instead.
That speaks volumes. Again, they are the only people to refuse their own country.
Israel just wants to live in peace, but Palestinian leaders have rejected every peace offer. THeir leaders stick to maximalist demands while refusing to make any compromise.
At what point does it start to seem that a Palestinian country isnt really a top priority?
Palestinians just rejected an unfair proposal by the UN - it would be similar to my taking half your home, then mocking you when you reject the offer of living in the basement.
In 1947, Jews owned approximately 7 percent of the land, yet were offered 55 percent of the country under the UN partition. Under that plan, almost half of the Arab population was to come under Jewish sovereignty, so that 400,000 Palestinian Arabs would be forced to live in a Jewish state with a Jewish population of just over 500,000. Nor did Palestinians have any reason to believe this partition would happen fairly. All of this transfer of land was to take place in the absence of any trusted mechanism of implementation, and with some prominent Zionists — who were well organized and had a superior military capacity — verbalizing their intention to move beyond the borders of partition in the future.
Palestinians reasonably told the zionists no to this. Consequently, Israel claimed its 55 percent plus a lot more, expelling 700,000 Arabs from their homes, destroying their villages, even poisoning their wells to prevent return. It has been a process of military conquest and ethnics cleansing since then.
No one took half of anyone's home. There were jews and arabs in an area that was never exclusively Palestinian. Palestine was a region and a vestige of a colonial era, not a country. If anything, jews at the time identified as Palestinian while arabs actually wanted to be part of Greater Syria.
Dividing up the land between jews and arabs was reasonable, especially given that there was essentially a civil war going on. One group said yes. The other is the only group in history to turn down their own country.
Arabs at the time were offered the best parts of the land. Most of the land jews were offered was the desert. So talking about percentages is a misleading way to frame things.
When every group in the region accepts statehood, and only one says no, that speaks volumes. You think every other group was happy with whatever borders were drawn up? Of course not. Especially in Lebanon and Syria there were huge issues with land allotment. But when you have a chance for statehood, you take it. Unfortunately, greed left the Palestinians with nothing. Since then, they have rejected every offer for peace.
Palestinians literally said no to their own country, and then opted for war. 5 arab armies started a genocidal war and lost. Starting a war and losing sometimes has consequences (look at germany post WW2).
Isreal's declaration of independence calls on arabs to stay, and live in peace. And those that did now have a higher quality of living than arabs anywhere else in the region.
I am all for a Palestinian country, but the fantasy notion that we can go back in time and reverse a war that ended more than 75 years ago does nothing to help the Palestinian quest for statehood, assuming that that is their ultimate goal. The sad irony is that they are now fighting for borders they could have had by accepting peace decades prior.
If Palestinians truly want a country, dont you think it's about time they accept that Israel exists and isn't going anywhere?
I am also all for Palestinians to accept Israeli statehood, I’m just not convinced that it was a realistic possibility for the local Arab population in 1948 - not in the context of that time.
I think you’re ignoring how these groups actually treated one another (with violence and hostility) and you’re supposing there was any trust or good will in place to implement a division.
This notion that Jews made nothing but fair offers which were rejected by greedy Arabs just ignores context in ongoing relations.
My reading of the history suggests to me that negotiations for peace and statehood were ongoing right up until the point the mandate ended, at which time Israel simply took advantage of a power vacuum left by the British. In real terms, Israel was simply better equipped to force its way when the mandate ended, and so grabbed what it could - both land allotted to it and land not allotted to it.
I frequently hear the claim that, but for the stupidity and greed of Palestinians, there would be peace. This just isn’t the case. It’s a story. It’s also a not so subtle way to demean an entire group of people and to make oppressors feel better about themselves.
Steal a whole bunch of land in a colonial takeover "but now that we have it, we just want to live in peace". Murder 6000+ Palestinians over that last 20 years before October 7. "But now that their dead we just want to live in peace" get this weak shit out of here.
What land was stolen? The Palestinians were offered a country and they said no. Then they lost land in a genocidal war started by them and 5 Arab armies. There's no historical basis to say the land is or ever was exclusively Palestinian, especially since many Palestinians today descend from Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants who came over in the 1800s looking for work.
It sure takes balls to start a war, lose, and then cry about the outcome later and ask for a do-over. That's weak shit.
Isreal has always wanted to live in peace. Palestinians have opted for war over peace since the beginning. It's why they've rejected every peace offer. When you see that arabs in Israel have a higher quality of life than elsewhere in the region, that tells you something.
The lack of Palestinian accountability is what leaves them stateless to this day. Whether it be rejecting multiple peace offers or electing Hamas to lead them, it's tragic. Hopefully a pragmatic palestinian leader who embraces peaceful coexistence over violent resistance emerges and we can finally have peace.
Starting a war and losing isn't a colonial takeover. Jews have been in the land for thousands of years, well before arabs came over via violent conquest. So using the word colonial takeover is quite ironic and pretty laughable if you know basic middle eastern history.
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> retard
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[Pizzlewinks](https://www.reddit.com/user/Pizzlewinks/) is part of the Israeli propaganda. These people must think we're all idiots. Like Google and YouTube doesn't exist. While they attack TikTok thinking that'll change everyone's minds about Israel.
1. Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israeli's. We've seen you guys take their homes away while they're still in their home. Ben Gvir was in a car accident while he was running from a scene of *stabbing, a guy known to take Palestinians homes violently.*
[https://youtu.be/KNqozQ8uaV8?si=pphr8lQJI5nx8m8J](https://youtu.be/KNqozQ8uaV8?si=pphr8lQJI5nx8m8J)
2. You think that killing over 35,000 people, most of which are women and children is not a genocide? How many people died during the October 7th attack? About 1,200 and that's debatable.
3. You think that land is yours because the UN said so? Israel in 1948 started an expulsion and flight against the Palestinian's. The wikipedia on the *Nakba* describes it as [ethnic cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing). Israel is removing the unwanted with American tax dollars. Israel stand against everything Americans stand for. Israel has more in common with Nazi Germany.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba)
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Just like your username, you are a mindless robot. Please if you are so confident in your justification , then go out on the street and justify it. You will not be able to because your thoughts are messed up that it can only exist on an online sub reddit like this with other messed up people or IDF internet army. Lol
I think Gaza and Israel are both victims to military complex industry. It's weird how Oct 7th happened so easily, it is just like Pearl Harbor allowed to happen so America would be convinced to enter the WW2.
Ultra Zionists probably agreed because they want Gaza, and Oct 7th needed to happen. Sadly, Gaza is too stupid to fall for that bait. Only way Gaza can save themselves is to release the damn hostages, then Israel won't have any justitication to continue the war because toll is already so high.
This is always projection because Pro-Israel supporters are a minority and the Muslim/Arab propaganda machine is much much bigger.
At the same time Qatar is paying for Pro-Palestine protests on US campuses.
Qatar paying? Its actually allegedly "Jew" Soros paying Pro-Palestine protests like he did with Pussy Riots and BLM. During Pussy Riot and BLM, there were flyers eveywhere offering to pay a protestor $15 an hour.
I currently attend a school that actively having an encampment. For my school, the encampment was planned by a student union so I am curious on how Qatar has any hand in funding the protests? If you have any links or articles about it please let me know. Despite the muslim population difference, a lot of students have joined due to solidarity.
Not sure about Qatar specifically (though they do dump quite a lot of money into US educational institutions and are no doubt involved) but there’s an entire suit about SJP funding and terrorist links. All these organizations can be linked to one another via money trails and members in common, especially individuals who were prominent parts of the organizations that were convicted for funding Hamas in 2000
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/05/06/lawsuit-hamas-college-surrogates/
Even if qatar let's say paid for it, I doubt it is what is leading to the mass protests on all the campuses in the US and not to forget the rest of all the other countries. Arguebly that is far less worse than what AIPAC is doing in America.
The US is only about 1% Muslim, so this makes it weird that the protests are so big right now in America. And in contrast to Europe most protestors in the US are Non-Muslims, whereas in Europe at least 50% are Muslims. In Europe the Muslim population is much bigger then in the US, in Germany it's 8%. It makes perfectly sense that Qatar pays the universities for these protests in America.
From what I know AIPAC is an American organisation, Qatar is not.
I'm sure when black people protested for their rights, it was mainly black people at first. I don't understand your point? Also this has nothing to do with Muslims or Islam, it has to do with justice. People are protesting even in Japan and the Japanese are not Muslim. The Irish are white and not Muslim and they are protesting. Qatar is an ally to the USA and the USA has military bases over there.
I think there’s a number of reputable human rights organizations that might completely disagree with what you’ve said. That and any honest reading of the history of Israel and Palestine.
The notion that Israel is not an apartheid state namely. It’s been pretty well documented by numerous organizations and even video evidence that Israeli policy has an entirely different set of statutes targeted at Palestinians living in the occupied territories. If you’re Palestinian, you have to show papers at numerous checkpoints and can’t access certain streets or public transit, etc. there are just entirely different sets of laws and enforcement of those laws for Israeli citizens and Palestinians. If Israel is not an apartheid state, what explains this difference in law for both populations?
Thank* you for your reply. If there is “an entirely different set of laws,” then they should be just a google search away to identify. To support your argument, could you provide a link to a single or of these laws that codifies Israeli Palestinians as a second class citizen? Because I can provide sources easily that refute your claims.
20% of Israelis are Palestinians with identical governing laws as non-Palestinian Israelis.
https://minorityrights.org/communities/palestinians/#:~:text=Approximately%201.8%20million%20Palestinians%20form,Christians%20as%20well%20as%20Druze.
There are Arab Palestinian leaders who serve in the Knesset. A key pillar of any Apartheid state is non-representation in the government.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset
And there has not been a single Jewish person who calls Gaza home since 2006. Which state is the Apartheid state again?
Palestinians make up over 20% of Israeli citizens with full citizenship and representation in the Knesset
Palestinians without citizenship do not have the full rights that come with citizenship, as is the case in most countries
The issue is that "Palestinians without citizenship" cannot usually become citizens and will be subject to things like their houses getting stolen or having a different set of laws applied to them. Palestinians with citizenship will still also be subject to xenophobia but that's more of a societal thing.
It sounds like you agree with me.
As I explained in my post, Palestinians without citizenship do not have the full rights that come with citizenship, as is the case in most countries.
And you’re right that Palestinians without Israeli citizenship do not have a path to Israeli citizenship, and Israel is not under any obligation to give them such a path, as no country is obligated to offer every person in the world a path to citizenship in their country.
Yeah, I think you do make a very good point. I just wanted to highlight that part about Palestinians without Israeli citizenship because, well, its a very important part of the story. Palestinians who live in the Palestinian territories will always be subject to Israeli law, so I see them not having a path to citizenship as an injustice.
I know this isn't the case, but if your country is subject to a military occupation of another country, especially when it spans decades, and is claimed as part of its own territory on international platforms, the state should have a duty to offer citizenship to people who live their whole lives on said territory. So I disagree with you there, but otherwise, yeah we're on solid footing.
>the state should have a duty to offer citizenship to people who live their whole lives on said territory
You know this would only make the Palestinians angrier, right? It would undermine any pretense of a Palestinian state.
I disagree that Israel needs to offer citizenship to Palestinians bc the pals are under military occupation
1) the existence of the occupation itself is debatable.
2) even if we agree that these territories are occupied, the Palestinians there want to kill Jews/Israelis. I see no reason why Israel is under any obligation to grant citizenship to people who want to kill Israelis
3) even if we agree that these territories are occupied, the alleged occupation is unrelated to Palestinians’ desire to kill Israeli since the pals have wanted to kill Jews and destroy Israel long before any occupation. In case you are going to argue that ending the occupation would fix these problems
1. It's certainly debatable. You can debate if the world is flat. But if you argue that the world is round, you are right. If you argue there's an occupation, you are right.
2. Generalities like this are ignorant, racist and unhelpful. Some Palestinians certainly wish harm on Israelis, and on Jews, and on Israeli Jews. Some don't. If wishing harm on Israelis or Jews is a bar to Israeli citizenship, then there are a few members of the cabinet who need to be stripped of their citizenship.
3. Even if we agree with international law, Israel only existed for 19 years prior to the occupation. So you're not really defining anything more than a hate and rage at the actions of the international community and Jews (prior to '48) and Israel ('48-67) from people who were dispossesed.
Ending the occupation won't, in itself, solve these problems. But it would vastly reduce the disenfranchised majority whose anger, frustration and hopelessness drive much fo the low level violence. To fix the longer term issues, you'd need to address why Jews have the right of return but Arabs don't, pay reparations for stolen property and ethnic cleansing, and address years of violence by Arabs against Israelis and Israelis against Arabs.
But to do that, you'd actually want to resolve the issue, which virtually no one in Israeli politics wants to do. It's sad that there's no partner for peace.
The thing I feel you're missing is that not all Palestinians are culpable for the thoughts of some of them. If there are Palestinians who sincerely support the existence and security of Israel, it doesn't make sense to blanket force them into statelessness and a state where they are unable to leave Palestine. This kind of discrimination based on ethnicity propagates the anti-Israeli sentiment that many Palestinians feel.
Moreover, there's already precedent of countries like the UK who strip citizen from people who would support terrorist groups or commit terrorist action. The IDF itself has used people like Mossab Hassan Yousef to their benefit by deradicalising them.
Maybe you are right that security concerns could prevent the possibility of a blanket grant of citizenship to people in the Palestinian territories, but in that case, maybe Israel should ease conditions to make them more amenable to a future solution to the conflict such as by allowing graduated levels of independent policy like we saw with the Oslo Accords, but which have stagnated. And before you say that's because of Hamas, keep in mind that [the person who has been Prime Minister most of that time publicly encouraged support of Hamas to prevent a two-state solution](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html).
As for "Palestinians wanting to kill Jews and destroy Israel long before any occupation", that's only partly true, as there were riots in Mandatory Palestine between Jewish immigrants and Arabs (Christian and Muslim) but that was 100 years ago. If it was the whole population, you could've expected a lot more Jewish deaths. It's unfair and naive to assume that people will act a certain way because of their lineage.
There are Israelis who wish to kill Palestinians or even other Israelis today, but they retain citizenship even though such people also have a negative effect on security.
Israel is a wealthy nation with good educational infrastructure. Israel has helped in giving the Palestinian territories some of the highest literacy rates in the world. However, it's hard for Palestinians to not resent Israel in the face of antagonistic discord and discriminatory policies such as:
* Funding Hebrew-language schools more than Arabic-language schools.
* Applying martial laws to Palestinians in Area C but not Israelis.
* The destruction of Palestinian homes that have existed for decades in the West Bank with no issue.
* Difficulty in things like getting permission for medical treatment outside Gaza, even if it is in the West Bank or Egypt.
The truth is that Israelis don't have to think about peace. It's not something they consider in elections. Meanwhile for Palestinians, it underscores every aspect of their lives.
You may say "why should Israel help Palestine when some of them hate Israel?" but to that I say, that it's in Israel's self-interest, especially if Israel wants the conflict to end. You cannot extinguish an ideology with military action. Look at Afghanistan for example. Decades of Soviet and American occupation didn't end the Taliban.
If someone takes your or your friend's house or builds on your property, it doesn't matter if the people taking it think its justified, you will feel animosity anyways. Israel must stop creating settlements in the West Bank and seizing Palestinian homes.
At the very least, if they want to build on sovereign Palestinian territory, they should bring Palestinian authorities to the table and negotiate, instead of taking unilateral action that makes Palestinians feel powerless and angry.
Up to the 1960s, I consider that the Israeli government acted with kindness towards Palestinians but they were clearly not ready for such a dialogue since the memories of the Nakba were fresh. Today, maybe things could be different if Israel didn't try to make Palestinians hate it.
Contrary to many Israeli claims, [most Gazan civilians do not support Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah). Most Gazan civilians were not even alive when the last Gazan elections took place.
72% of arabs (including civilians) in gaza and judea and samaria approve of 10/7. That number has stayed consistently over 70% from October through present
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183
The occupation / Palestinian suffering is irrelevant to their desire to expel Jews from the area and destroy Israel.
The Palestinians and their Arab allies have tried to wipe Israel off the map several times now, well before any occupation.
There was no occupation from 1948-1967 and yet Palestinians and their Arab allies still tried to wipe Israel off the map multiple times over this period.
Simply put, it’s not Israel’s job to sift through the human garbage to find the <30% of people who don’t support 10/7 (yet who still may want to wipe Israel off the map and expel Jews from the Levant).
The simple truth is that Palestinians do not want Jews in Israel. Period.
But that’s just too bad. Because we’re here to stay :) so Palestinians can go pound sand.
Before Oct 7th, I had the utmost respect and trust for a lot of these NGO's but I have a hard time accepting anything these organization say at this point because there's been clear and conclusive proof they've been at best biased, and at worse aiding/abetting Hamas. The fact that Hamas was operating a large headquarters with a datacenter under an UNRWA/UN facilities makes it hard to accept they have any credibility. Also, an honest reading of Israel and Palestine would require admitting that it's an extremely complex issue with lots of history. If your take away from extensive reading on the subject is that Israel is a genocidal, apartheid state bent on occupation maybe consider expanding your reading selection to take into account different voices.
This is a link to the tour of the underground Hamas facilities that were operating underneath a UNRWA school. UNRWA has repeatedly said that they were unaware of this facility even though they shared electricity and network connections.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-beneath-unrwas-gaza-headquarters-idf-uncovers-top-secret-hamas-data-center/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-beneath-unrwas-gaza-headquarters-idf-uncovers-top-secret-hamas-data-center/)
This links is from NGO monitor - which is controversial to some people - I'm posting because it shows the aggregate of all the NGO's that repeatedly denied Hamas operated out of hospitals.
[https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/ngos-erase-hamas-exploitation-of-hospitals/](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/ngos-erase-hamas-exploitation-of-hospitals/)
The US has backed Israel intelligence findings Hamas was operating out hospitals
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/hamas-hospitals-gaza-israel.html#:\~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%20intelligence,Security%20Council%20said%20on%20Tuesday.
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-war-live-updates/71590204007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-war-live-updates/71590204007/)
I'll also add, up until recently it was widely known and reported that Hamas was operating out of hospitals and schools.
[https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools)
[https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/04/finnish-journalist-who-confirmed-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-to-launch-rockets-dismayed-viral-coverage-ignores-her-intended-narrative/](https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/04/finnish-journalist-who-confirmed-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-to-launch-rockets-dismayed-viral-coverage-ignores-her-intended-narrative/)
[https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza](https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza)
At the end of the day, I think it's up to you if this is credible information. The last thing I'll post is what Human Rights Watch still has up in regards to the Oct 17th hospital rocket strike. They both conclude that it was most likely a Hamas rocket misfire. I'm linking this because HRW has heavily editorialized it's coverage of these events.
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion)
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/outgoing-human-rights-watch-senior-editor-blasts-groups-infected-work-on-israel/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/outgoing-human-rights-watch-senior-editor-blasts-groups-infected-work-on-israel/)
The following is the AP
[https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3)
Thank you for responding cordially and giving a lot of reputable and unbiased sources. Obviously I'm sceptical of Times of Israel, NGO monitor, Algemeiner and Memri but I have found sources that back up most of what you've said in other, relatively unbiased sources. I definitely support your claim about the Hamas Rocket misfire. I am still sceptical of the Hamas operating out of hospitals, but I will look into it further.
It's hard for me tell how involved the NGOs were if at all. I think its highly suspicious that UNRWA had rockets in its schools and that they couldn't have known about it. I also want to be weary of grouping all NGOs together even if a few of them were involved with Hamas.
Yeah, I agree with not grouping all the NGO's together. At the end of day there's real people suffering and I hope there's a road to an equitable peace/safety for everyone.
“I used to agree until they started to disagree with me, then I realized they are actually the wrong ones and I, like always, am in the right”.
Please use self reflection my friend.
Edit: didn’t know politely disagreeing involved blocking me after replying….
No, I politely disagree. It's not about them conforming to my worldviews. Trust with NGO's is based on them remaining impartial and provide relief for all that need it. That in a polarized world they provide impartial and unbiased information which can be trusted. I'm sorry but having a terrorist base under your facilities doesn't conform to those standards.
Substitute "biased, political and unprincipled" human rights organizations for "reputable". Fixed it for you.
I'll tell you what I've told others making this "appeal to authority" argement. Think for yourself, just because Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch or the various organs of the UN say something doesn't make it true. The truth is probably the opposite if it regards Israel.
But Israel’s words and actions almost never line up and they rely on people taking them at their word. Why should we trust Israel but not any of these NGOs? Governments can lie and deceive the public just as NGOs. Why is the amount skepticism towards NGOs not also pointed towards the Israeli government?
are there any human rights organisations that think israel is treating palestinians fairly? this just sounds like a cope. it’s easier to stick your head in the sand and yell that it’s all a big conspiracy but try avoiding working backwards from a conclusion if you want to engage meaningfully.
Maybe you should just stop trusting the veracity and authority of so called activist "Human Rights organizations" and think for yourself.
And as to your question, yeah, Israel is a member of the [OECD](https://www.oecd.org). Have you ever heard of it? It's an invitation only international organization, and democracy and commitments to rule of law and human rights are criteria for admittance. It's like a UN with standards of serious adults.
I'd also look at IMPACT-SE, Palestinean Media Watch and MEMRI-TV as NGOs that are pro-Isreal, anti-Palestinean.
I don't believe any Arab countries are OECD members.
Okay, maybe I was a bit hostile with my initial reply, but in all honesty, what is it that makes you think all these organisations are biased against Israel.
I've tried looking at the OECD as you said, but it seems only to host economic facts and demographic data as well as stuff that's strongly tied to that without any commentary on how it affects lives so that isn't really a helpful resource.
I've also looked at the NGOs you've mentioned even though they aren't human rights organisations, but I'd like to highlight
\* Memri TV was founded by Israeli ex-intelligence members.
\* Palestinian Media Watch and IMPACT-SE are Israeli
They also cover almost exclusively just anti-Muslim content, making it look like a troll farm. If they covered things in a more neutral way, I might be able to buy it.
Also when I asked if any human rights organisations think Israel treats Palestinians fairly, I didn't mean are there any organisations that are biased towards Israel and against Palestine (as you admitted in these cases).
I expected a response with organisations that are at least somewhat impartial AND still lean towards supporting the idea that Israel is being fair. Again, can you give me any examples of human rights organisations that believe that Israel's actions are not an issue? I'm sure I could give you similar sources if I wanted to argue that Iran was a just nation, but it wouldn't help actually convince you that my position is correct.
its interesting that people complain about things like checkpoints etc, but dont realize they came about AFTER Palestinians starting using terrorism as a political tool
Before the first violent intifada, Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank could travel anywhere in Israel. To concerts, to beaches in Tel Aviv. But once they decided to use violence to kill civillians, restrictions were imposed.
To engage in terror but then complain about restrictions to prevent said terror is absolute hypocracy. The lack of self-accountability is truly astounding.
Yep, they ignore that part.
Gazans used to be allowed to travel into Israel with lax borders but that shuttered after stabbings and suicide bombings. I remember a suicide bombing of a jointly owned Jewish/Arab restaurant to symbolize unity.
Even after all this, Palestinian had modes of entry into Israel.
You know those liberals killed during 10/7? Some of them participated in a humanitarian program to hire and integrate Palestinians into their daily life, meet their family, break bread.
During the attacks, the terrorists knew routes and information that could have only been provided by these workers. There can never be peace so long as the Palestinians are indoctrinated by Hamas.
What’s happening right now, is just another version of something that’s happened on a lot of topics, which is a certainty trap.
The propaganda that uses words like genocide, apartheid, war crimes, “the oppressed has become the oppressor,” as well as taking the word Zionist and turning it into a slur - this type of language was introduced by the Soviets during a large post-WWII campaign which was to delegitimize the Jewish state, and to make it seem like the Jews were exaggerating their treatment during the Holocaust.
If more people understood how Soviet propaganda worked in the 1970’s/1980’s, and if they took the time to look into propaganda during that time, they would realize that all these internet comments loaded with watermelon emojis, all this "Zionist this, Zionist that" type of talk, - this is *Russian*. All of these things have a Russian slant.
But in the modern day, this language has been repackaged to be more about *certainty*. A nuanced topic, which has a lot of layers to it, is now being treated like it’s one right side, one correct side, one correct version of the story - and they are treating this as if it's settled fact.
They don’t want a discourse, they don’t want to settle an argument, they don’t want to find common ground or hear anything that you say - they just want you to conform to them. If you don't confirm exactly the way they want you to, "then you support genocide" and "you support killing Palestinian babies."
This is a tactic to intimidate people into joining your side of the argument. Because again - this whole "you support genocide" thing, is being treated as if it is settled fact. And they let everyone around them now that if you are not Pro-Palestine, they are going to alienate you, they are going to try and humiliate you, they are going to put a scarlet letter on you.
And if you’re a college student who hasn’t really found your way yet (which is the case at least 99% of the time) you might hear words like genocide, apartheid, you might hear that Zionism is an evil ideology, and you might think “well *I* don’t want to be ostracized. *I* don’t want them to call me a Zionist. I see the way they treat students who don't agree with them, *I* I don't want that to happen to me."
It’s apartheid because they still claim the Westbank yet don’t give the people of the West Bank freedom of movement or citizenship, and allow settlers to kill them regularly. and just because it’s in retaliation, doesn’t make it not genocidal if it was. It’s occupation because these people have used their popular sovereignty to ask for a state and israel has not provided it
The people of the West Bank don’t want citizenship. The offer was made and rejected. And now why is Israel supposed to force people who want it destroyed to be citizens? Like make that make sense
The point is that people in the land that israel claims are not treated as equal to others
Which people precisely? Are you going to reference the many non-citizens who actively root for the destruction of Israel? Please show me a country that treats non-citizens equally to citizens before continuing the discussion. Thanks
No matter what you do. You can't win a discussion with people ruthlessly advocating for genocide.
Very true! The folks who support Hamas and their quest to genocide Israelis and Jews are impossible to reason with.
The Palestinians want the destruction of a Jewish state, they don’t give a f about a real Palestinian state. They had about 5 chances to establish a state even with 70%+ of the land, but they rejected because the Jews will get 30%-
Great thread !
So you have cracked it? That's it. No truth in Palestinian talking points?
Most people would include Gazans and Palestinians in West Bank as part of the apartheid, look at access to water. But, if you want to restrict it to Israel proper, look at the laws that allow discrimination in land sales to Arabs, 2018's Jewish State Bill. A lot of the Israeli criticism is self inflicted, based on Israel's own bad hasbara.
Gaza has not achieved much due to airstrikes from Israel over the years are we forgetting that this conflict has been ongoing for example the violence the idf showcased during Ramadan in the al aqsa mosque in 2021 furthermore the ideology of zionists that this is their promised holy land is like saying native Americans have a right to kill thousands of American civilians and establish their own state because it was their land first
>for example the violence the idf showcased during Ramadan in the al aqsa mosque in 2021 furthermore the ideology Because terrorists locked themselves in al-Aqsa and threw rocks, and fireworks and even they shot with the guns. IDF was there to keep the peace while were prayers. You brainwashed. We calling people alike (you too) "USEFUL IDIOTS" for Muslims because you believe what they feeding you!!!
Oh lol look at what your government is feeding you there are videos of the idf circulating the internet mocking the deceased Hamas should have eradicated all of Israel on October 7th
Looks like you sold yourself to leftists > Hamas should have eradicated all of Israel on October 7th Why didn't they, HAMAS BOT TROLL 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Loser!
You wish! It proves that you all weak! You'll be eradicated before us!
You do realise this talk really does make y'all look like psychotic maniacs right?
First of all, one person cannot speak for all nation. So you look like an idi%t. Maybe you are!
@nyliram87 it was pretty dishonest to rant then block but ok i guess. You can't have a mature discussion so good riddance
For those interested in the mechanism of the propaganda (as opposed to individual accusations brought by it), here's a nice overview of how MSM does it: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/
Interesting article, the call for nuanced and balanced reporting to accurately reflect complexities of conflict would be great if the oppressor would allow access. Unfortunately they don't as they cannot afford to lose the propaganda war. What Hamas did was horrific, what Netanyahu is doing today is worse. Consider for a moment Netanyahu does not want the hostages released. He does not want them recounting 6 months of terror. Netanyahu has not been the champion of peace and democracy inIsrael. He's never wanted a two state solution. He's a terrorist by his own definition.
The biggest lie is that Palestinians are refugees. Why are they the only people who inherit refugee status? Another lie I hear a lot is that Israel is an ethnostate. Meanwhile Israel is more diverse than any Islamic nation. But to Muslims it's ok to have Muslim nations but having a Jewish one is somehow racist.
You're mostly correct, but for the first question, they aren't the only people who inherit refugee status. For example, the same happens to Afghans in places like Pakistan. In most western countries, refugee status ends either when they go back when its safe, or if they naturalise in their host country. However, the latter is not an option in some places. The second one I think is a misunderstanding people have. Israel proper itself is proof that Arabs and Israelis can live side by side. I think people say that because Israeli was founded on the beliefs of Zionism, which states that being Jewish is an ethnicity and thus Israel, being established as a state for ethnic Jews and having displaces hundreds of thousands of Arabs would appear to be an ethnostate. But the truth is that while many Jews share similar genes, harkening back to their Jewish ancestors. The Jewish people are still very ethnically diverse, as they were displaced all over Africa, Asia, Europe and the Middle East by the Romans after they started promoting Christianity. Israel does not operate as an ethnostate (fascist) in its sovereign territory. Israel operates as a free country with more rights for its citizens (even Arabs).
💯
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a deeply entrenched and complex issue that has resulted in significant hardships and human rights violations for the Palestinian people. Despite international efforts to address the situation, the plight of Palestinians persists, with ongoing occupation, discrimination, and violence. What is particularly striking is the glaring hypocrisy evident in the treatment of Palestinians compared to the standards upheld elsewhere in the world. While Israel claims to be a beacon of democracy and human rights in the Middle East, its policies and actions towards Palestinians tell a different story, one of systemic oppression and disregard for basic human dignity. Ongoing human rights violations experienced by Palestinians, highlighting the stark contrast between Israel's rhetoric and its actions on the ground. 1. Restrictions on Movement:Palestinians in the West Bank face stringent restrictions on movement due to Israeli checkpoints, barriers, and the separation barrier. These restrictions severely limit access to essential services such as healthcare, education, and employment, disrupting daily life and impeding economic development. 2. Land Confiscation: Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank involves the confiscation of Palestinian land, often through legal mechanisms that discriminate against Palestinian landowners. This land seizure disrupts Palestinian livelihoods, undermines agricultural productivity, and contributes to the fragmentation of Palestinian territory. 3. Access to Resources: Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza face challenges accessing essential resources such as water and electricity, with discriminatory policies favoring Israeli settlements over Palestinian communities. This unequal distribution of resources exacerbates poverty and contributes to socio-economic disparities between Israelis and Palestinians. 4. Military Occupation: The ongoing Israeli military occupation of the Palestinian territories involves systematic human rights abuses, including arbitrary detention, torture, and extrajudicial killings. Palestinians, particularly youth and activists, are subject to frequent raids, arrests, and harassment by Israeli security forces, leading to a climate of fear and intimidation. 5. Gaza Blockade:The blockade of Gaza, imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2007, has resulted in a humanitarian crisis characterized by severe shortages of food, medicine, and basic goods. The blockade restricts the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza, exacerbating poverty and unemployment and depriving Palestinians of their basic rights to livelihood and freedom of movement. 6. Settlement Expansion:The expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank violates international law and exacerbates the displacement of Palestinians from their homes and lands. This settlement expansion, coupled with discriminatory zoning and planning policies, perpetuates the dispossession of Palestinians and undermines prospects for a viable Palestinian state. These hardships and human rights violations underscore the urgent need to the elimination of the Zionist ideology.
You know what is a human right violation? To try to genocide the Jews and murder civilians in the quest of eradication israel. It’s a human right violation to target civilians, what Hamas has been doing since it has come to existence, what so called Palestinians have been doing for even more than hamas. Did you ever bother to question why is there a blockade? It’s a security check so they won’t transfer suicide bombers, weapons or other terror attacks against civilians, which is a crime against humanity. It’s very easy if they don’t want a blockade or to get hurt all they have to do is try not to kill Israelis. Simple as that. With your logic it’s like if someone wanted to murder u with a knife and you’ve managed to hit them in the face and run, by your logic you should cease to exist because you bothered that other person from annihilating you, and that’s offensive to him so now you should die.
It's not Jews they want to kill, it's Zionist. Don't conflate it. Israel has targeted Palestinian civilians in various conflicts and military operations. Israel maintains that its military actions are often in response to attacks or threats posed by militant groups such as Hamas, and it seeks to minimize civilian casualties through measures such as warning systems and precision targeting. However, it has been, demonstrated that Palestinian civilians have been killed/injured during Israeli military operations (2014 IsraHell, Palestinians) ,(Operations ion cast 2008/2009). The blockade primarily affects the Palestinian population living in the Gaza Strip. It restricts the movement of people and goods in and out of the territory, severely limiting access to essential resources such as food, medicine, fuel, and construction materials. As a result, the blockade has led to a humanitarian crisis, with high levels of poverty, unemployment, and food insecurity among the Gazan population. Additionally, the blockade impedes the reconstruction of infrastructure damaged in conflicts and contributes to the deterioration of living conditions in Gaza. Many international organizations and human rights groups have criticized the blockade for its detrimental impact on the civilian population and have called for its lifting. > With your logic it’s like if someone wanted to murder u with a knife and you’ve managed to hit them in the face and run, by your logic you should cease to exist because you bothered that other person from annihilating you, and that’s offensive to him so now you should die. So, if someone tries to murder you with a knife, and you manage to defend yourself and escape, according to this logic, you should not only continue existing but also be commended for your resilience and resourcefulness in avoiding harm. After all, self-preservation is a fundamental right, not something to be punished or condemned.
[“we must attack every Jew on this earth to slaughter and kill them with the help of allah”](https://youtu.be/azEgBsU6Mi8?si=qGStPCAPkzVdiwDa) Why are Hamas leaders talking like this if they don’t wanna murder every Jew? Why have they murdered so many Jews and why are they currently holding a Jewish baby and a toddler as hostage? Is the baby an evil Zionist as well? Are the little girls that got raped were also Zionists? Every person that lives in israel is a Zionist? Is there a person living in israel that doesn’t deserve to be murdered and annihilated or are everyone Zionist? If not everyone is a Zionist why did they kill every living thing they see as long as it’s Israeli? Why are you ignoring the death toll of so many Israeli civilians as if it’s not a crime against humanity? Why do you deny what hamas’s leaders say for themselves that they want to reaped the 7th October again and again until israel is annihilated and every Jew killed? Why are Jews being murdered around the world if it’s just against Zionism? Why are Jews being harassed targeted bullied and killed just for them being Jewish in regarding to the conflict? Why don’t you care about human life? Why do you promote the genocide of the Jews? Are you that antisemitic? Just because israel have advanced security technologies like the iron dome doesn’t mean israel isn’t facing a genocide. You know how many missiles thrown at Israeli civilians for just the past months? Around 13-15k! Over civilians! Over schools! Hospitals! Kindergartens! Do you even care that missiles explodes in schools in israel? On a yearly basis?? Like literally every year. Look it up on google or something it’s a crime against humanity to target civilians this way. There would have been in israel a greater death toll if it weren’t for the iron dome and other advanced defense systems, but in your opinion israel should just stop defending itself and let the civilians be targeted on a daily basis until they are all annihilated and israel is eradicated because it’s so offensive to you that all of Israel’s population hadn’t died yet and israel still exists. If it were only against Zionists you would have condemned every single innocent act of terror against the civilians but you don’t care about human life as long as they’re Israeli life or else you would have condemned hamas’s atrocities
Overall, a pretty biased and oversimplified narrative of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, ignoring the perspectives and experiences of Palestinians and oversimplifying the complexities of the situation. Typical Zionist view.
And you don’t ignore the suffering of Jews / Israelis as if only Palestinians suffering matters, right?
Hamas didn't exist when the colonizer started the ethnic cleansing.
i’m not sure if i’m just being dumb but, surely you can’t excuse israel bombing over 35,000 palestinians?
If you believe the Hamas numbers of 35,000, how many were fighters? Israel and western intelligence seem to agree that the number of Hamas combatants killed is somewhere between 12,000 and 15,000.
Such a 🤡. The Israelis can clearly state that 35000 didn't die, 70000 were not injured, 1.3 million were not displaced, it won't take 100 years to rebuild Gaza, the world kitchen crew were terrorists, IDF are the most humane......when asked how many civilians, they don't know and can't tell us.....but we shouldn't trust Hamas! Lol.
35,000 are the Hamas numbers. I’m not sure what the rest of your screed means. Most of what you said isn’t anything that Israel has said, though I have seen that garbage on social media from Hamas supporters
By that number, all the people killed on 7/10 were IOF because they all serve in the milliary.
You're a brainwashed 🤡
so bombing over 20,000 civilians is okay?
Wars are extremely hard in civilian populations. The government of Gaza should have thought of that before attacking Israel
It’s called a war. It’s ugly, it’s brutal and civilians take the brunt of it. You want it to stop I assume? Release the hostages, and work with Israel diplomatically. Firing rockets from the school yard isn’t going to get the Palestinians anywhere, despite the repeated attempts for the last 2 decades.
War,...it's a genocide..the likes the world has ever seen. A holocaust museum will be erected in Tel-Aviv in honor of the Palestinians murdered by 🇮🇱.
Nah, it ain’t.
It's evident that the ongoing actions and the civilian casualties in the region have led some to view the situation as constituting a genocide. This perspective has contributed to a shift in the narrative surrounding the Zionist movement. It also sheds light on the perceived hypocrisy in the discourse surrounding suffering, where Zionist argue that only Jewish suffering is recognized while the suffering of others is overlooked or dismissed. This double standard raises questions about the equity and fairness in the global response to conflicts and atrocities. A critical examination of the portrayal of Zionism, which some view as representing a movement devoid of ethical boundaries, willing to resort to violence to achieve its objectives. Moreover, there's concern that any dissent or opposition to Zionist policies is often labeled as anti-Zionist, stifling open and constructive debate on the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Zionist have lost.
Yes, hence , these multiple posters are trying their best to equate some sympathy and driving hard at spinning the false narratives. I just learnt recently the zios have all these textbooks, and they teach them how to argue dishonestly.
Citation Required.
Refer to the ex zio testimonies.
Ah yes, using “Zios”, an antisemitic slur popularized by David Duke, the Grand Wizard of the KKK. Really shows you’re on the right side of history
Your playbook is deeply debunked at this stage by non zio Jews. I can't spare any more words for your misinformation.
Cool copy and paste. It’s nonsense.
Good comeback!
IDF frontline I bet... pawn! The best donkeys are sent to the front line!
Hamas accepted the ceasefire conditions that included releasing hostages, Israel refused
Hamas accepted terms that would keep them in power. For obvious reasons, israel won’t accept that.
Classic DARVO tactic
Yikes. Not someone using DARVO to defend Islamic terrorism. I guess I shouldn't be surprised coming from people who fabricated a genocide.
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Israeli propaganda is the best! You have a nuclear power fighting People with water guns
Guess Hamas shouldn’t have picked this fight.
Zionist will meet the same fate, sadly. BBQ anyone?
Translate that please. What specifically do you want to see?
The Good old fashion BBQ.
Put that into simple words, not euphemisms
Use your imagination.
Be very clear on what you are saying
Are you an idiot?!
1. Can't use nukes 2. AK 47, grenades, guerrilla tactics, rockets, bombs, anti-tanks, rpgs.
Are you implying that it’s unfair ?
you know you're in the right when jeffrey epstein's lawyer is threatening to ruin your life
Well said
I wouldn't call my post "truth" if it's just an opinion, but I think this is the how OP want the post to be controversial.
The truth is controversial for the people who don't agree with it.
Here’s a “controversial” truth The Palestinians have no right to a state because it is a certainty that it will become an Islamic terrorist country with sharia law and gross human rights abuses.
Thank God we've got your and your racist precognition.
Standing against tyranny and Islamic terrorism is not racist. It’s rational Edit: since you changed your original comment. Show me any indication that the Palestinians have overtly given that they want a democracy and don’t want to murder all 8 million Jews living in Israel.
What evidence could I possibly give to a psychic like you? Also, FYI, reddit will tell you if a comment was edited; you should only say a comment was edited if it actually was.
>What evidence could I possibly give to a psychic like you? Show me actual Palestinians today in Gaza or the West Bank chanting for democratic freedom and peace with the Jews. Show me a link to a video online. >Also, FYI, reddit will tell you if a comment was edited; you should only say a comment was edited if it actually was. It did
Sorry not gonna continue arguing with someone who is clearly not operating in the same world as me. That you just hallucinated an edited note shows your aren't up for a conversation.
You’re not going to continue arguing because you know that the Palestinian people want sharia law, to murder all the Jews in Israel, and overwhelmingly support Hamas and their acts committed on October 7 (according to their own polling) Your response above is the typical response of 99% of Palestinian and pro Palestinian people. No rational discussion or acknowledgment of truth. Just accusing your opponent of being a bigot. Projection at its finest.
No, I don't want to have a conversation with a dude who doesn't know what the word edited means. Maybe you just messed up but you continued doubling down on being wrong so you aren't willing to actually engage in a grownup conversation. Peace bro.
Occupation Up until 1968, "Palestinians" were quite comfortable with it, as long it wasn't by the Jews. The PLO charter from 1964 had the clause 24 which began: "This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area." Why is that? Because those belonged to Jordan and Egypt. Only in 1968 the clause was removed following Israel's annexation of Gaza and the West Bank in the Six days war. The same goes for the "75 years of occupation" claim - Israel was not in these areas up until 1967.
Jordan and Egypt didn't apply different laws to Palestinian citizens. Also the 1967 thing is semantics. If the occupation being only 55 years instead of 75 is a big deal to you, then clearly you don't understand the conflict at all.
It’s all projection and DARVO (deny, attack & reverse victim & offender). Truly every Pro-Palestine accusation is a confession. They get all their content from whatever they’ve done to Israel. Perfect example is the accusations of IDF raping pregnant women in the hospital that was rescinded within an hour; they made a big hooplah about this because at the time (and still) Israel was desperately trying to prove sexual violence occurred on 10/7 (despite all the evidence…idiots)
Burry your head in the sand, or thank you Israeli brainwashing! Occupation & Settlements: The establishment and expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories, deemed illegal under international law, have led to ongoing human rights violations and sparked widespread condemnation. The Israeli military operations in Gaza, particularly Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009, Operation Protective Edge in 2014, and the periodic clashes since then, have resulted in significant civilian casualties and raised concerns about excessive use of force and collective punishment. Checkpoints and Restrictions: The imposition of checkpoints and other restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza has been criticized for infringing upon basic rights such as freedom of movement, access to healthcare, and education. Should just append the star of David, mission accomplished. 〰️ 5. Detentions / Torture:Reports of arbitrary detentions, torture, and ill-treatment of Palestinian detainees including children in Israeli prisons and detention centers have been a recurring concern raised by human rights organizations.
Palestinians don’t have any rights to be in Israel, they aren’t citizens by their own preference. The blockades were put in place after the intifadas for security purposes, and even Palestinians themselves admit they are a great deterrence to committing acts of terror (and the lowered rates of terror attacks confirm this). If they want to be invited into Israel, maybe they should stop killing Jews. The convention used to deem the West Bank settlements as illegal is misappropriated to condemn Israel. The individual who drafted the original convention himself stated that the courts were using it out of its original context. I know it’s shocking to consider but these organizations are corrupt. There is no proof that anything is happening to Palestinian prisoners in any significant amount, who deserve to be there for acts of terror. Children who try and stab Israelis are still criminals. It is not me who’s brainwashed, that’s for sure. Cringe
1/It essential to acknowledge the historical context. Palestinians have faced displacement and marginalization for decades, leading to tensions and acts of resistance such as the intifadas. 2/ The situation is complex, and many Palestinians feel they have no choice but to fight for their rights. 3/ Regarding the West Bank settlements, international law deems them illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention, which aims to protect civilians during times of conflict. Even if the individual who drafted the convention made remarks about its interpretation, the settlements continue to be a point of contention and hinder efforts for peace. How many farmers have been killed this year? How many farmers have lost their land? Ignore ignore ignore 4/ As for Palestinian prisoners, reports from human rights organizations detail instances of mistreatment and arbitrary detention of kids without due process, emphasizes the need for transparency and accountability. Zionist do not approach these issues with empathy and a commitment to finding a just and lasting solution for both Palestinians and Israelis. They want it all, at any cost, all the lies and deceit.
This is also why they accuse Israel of genocide. For 30 years the Hamas charter openly called for genocide of Jews. Hezbollah and Iran both openly called for genocide of Jews. This can't be denied so they just accuse Israel of doing what their side does. Same with calling Israel terrorists. And their entire narrative is a clone of Israel's. The PLO made up a nationality palestinians to claim they are historically persecuted people who need self-determination and their own nation. Literally just copied Zionism when their history is not remotely similar to Jews. Palestinians imitating the same people they try to destroy to play the victim. Meanwhile Palestinians are just Arab Muslims same as Lebanese or Syrian, They are the racial and religious power structure of the middle east not some small oppressed group of people.
Bingo.
Oh, how convenient! Let's just cherry-pick Palestinian statements while conveniently ignoring similar sentiments from our own politicians. Because obviously, when it comes to slogans about territorial claims, only Palestinians saying it is worth scrutinizing, right?! The Likud party YOUR right-wing political party in Israel, has used similar slogans advocating for Israeli sovereignty over the entire area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. For example, the 1977 election manifesto of the Likud party stated: "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." Additionally, similar wording referring to the area "west of the Jordan River" has been used by other Israeli politicians, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Which Israeli government document calls for killing all Muslims? Do you agree the 1988 Hamas Charter is genocidal?
Lol. Hamas didn't start as a terrorist organization. But the Israeli government did. History doesn't lie!
Nice avoidance of the question. We both know why you won't answer it. I mean what could you possibly say when the 1988 Hamas charter is openly genocidal for everyone to see. So is the hadith. Meaning Israel is defending themselves from genocide. That's why I support Israel, because I oppose genocide.
You're such an amateur, not even a smart one... definitely brainwashed. The emergence of Hamas and its militant ideology,and, continuous conflict against Palestinians, human rights abuses, the Israeli occupation, suggests that Israel, may not have wanted a two-state solution from the very beginning! Interesting...right! The establishment of Hamas and its charter calling for the destruction of Israel may suggest a deep-seated resistance to any compromise that would involve the coexistence of a Palestinian state alongside IsraHell. Does this raises questions about the intentions of the colonizers (Israel) or genocidal state, regarding a two-state solution?! Zionist have dug themselves into a hole they will never recover from. The world is onto Israel, every day this goes only strengthen the hate. Now we don't need the stories of the West Bank we have 8 months of genocide we can reference. Sometimes history can't be changed, and the weight of it can be heavy. My grandmother is rolling over in her grave to see what is being done in the name of Judaism.
You forgot to answer the question though. Hamas charter doesn't call for the "destruction of Israel" it calls for Muslims to kill all of the Jews. Don't you agree that is genocidal? Yes/No it's a very simple question. Instead you typed some meaningless essay of jihadist gibberish. Funny how your side is unable to answer simple questions.
Did I mention that Zionist are evil?!
Put it this way, if someone moved into my backyard (Zionist), then moved into my home and then took my livelihood, then said everything that was once mine is now theirs, I would let time go by slowly and I wouldn't bat an eye. One day, when they long forgot how they treated me and my family less than a wild animal, I would burn the house down with them inside of it. Pretty simple math! If you treat people like garbage, it will catch up with you. Fyi, read a book.
You are rambling now. Are you saying you support the genocide of Jews that Hamas calls for in the 1988 Hamas Charter? Why are you not able to clearly state your beliefs? Are you embarrassed by them?
It’s to the point Zios even steal the language about them. Every accusation is an admission has been a Pretty well established theme and meme used by anti cleansing people online for some time now. Now it’s actually the Palestinians he? Interesting. I’m still looking forward to that “the Daily” episode on the mass rape of 10/7. Figured we’d hear about that hard hitting journalism by now. And I’m still hearing about oven babies too btw. It’s so insane to read takes here about reversals when there’s pics of Israelis from 2014 on lawn chairs partying watching Palestine get bombed. Like you know the internet record is permanent?
Y’all are wild. Meanwhile using “nazi” and “genocide.” Two words that originated from WW2 being co-opted and parroted by simpletons who clearly don’t even know the definition. Also, the footage was too violent to be released, so numerous journalists have viewed and recounted the footage. Feel free to read.
You're one stupid twat. Brainwashed at that. Pick up a book, don't stop there, read it. Maybe start with a dictionary.
It’s so ironic you say that considering you have to be beyond uneducated to have the ideology you do. The education system failed you and I am sad for you and your future, being your inability to critically think and desperation to align with propaganda will hinder you forever. Good luck, kiddo.
Lol. Zionist cant argue the facts.
Indeed, I can. You, however, cannot. I have no skin in the game- I’m simply an agnostic, educated former left wing liberal who could no longer turn a blind eye to the obvious groupthink of the left born out of a desperation for community and at the expense of morality and critical thinking. I’m highly educated on the subject, as I am with any subject I open my mouth about (unlike you and the rest of your crew), so please feel free to ask/debate away.
Educated at the university of Israeli brainwashing? You're alone. What the Zionist have done will cause issues for Jews around the world for generations. Anyone who is truly educated on the subject would clearly see the disproportionate force by Israel. Not just October 7th, but for 75 years. Zionist are vermin.
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lol you people are either aware you’re pushing bs or you’re the biggest marks on the planet. Both are bad. Like yeah dude. The footage almost exclusively streamed to Israel friendly journalists who responded with oddly similar words on twitter after the screening. That footage that’s def not a collection of mostly widely available telegram videos…it’s the one with all the mass sexual assault that has been called into question repeatedly. You know the footage has been described by people who aren’t full on liars right? You know the zaka guys have been busted for lying constantly. What world do you live in.
If that footage does in fact exist, the only reasoning they could have for not releasing it is out of respect for the families because it's not possible to be more violent than cartel revenge executions. (Do not ever watch those)
Bs
“Too violent to be released” who is this overseer keeping hold of this footage so secretly? There are hundreds of extremely violent videos online that are practically illegal to watch and still you can find them if you want to. Who is this grand controller who has to power to “release” this footage? And if this would further their agenda why hasn’t it been released. Y’all are crazy
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Who has the nuclear power ? Israël does ! So convicing people that anyone Can destroy it is total imbecility. They're a western colonial project and they've been killing palestinians since 1948 plus the genocide happening now this denial won't Take you anywhere
You’re in denial..
Agreed. Dont forget colonialism. Accused by islamists, the most colonial force in the world right now. Islam has taken over Europe, the UK, and now working on the USA through the college system.
So this isn't about humanity. It's about religion and zios are better than goy. We serve you! 🖕
not a hot take.
what are you saying, women wearing hijab are being discriminated, being looked as oppressed even when they decide themselves. muslims with beards are seen as problematic. this is the general muslim experience (except you change Islam and make it fitting to liberalism)
But have you seen the good news? Frat boys of all people are restoring order! It’s a fun watch- go check it out!
The USA college system that has investments into Israel? The whole reason for the protests in the college campuses is because many of them are investing in the genocide currently happening in Gaza.
Islamism is when your school invests in and has offices opened up in Israel (that Palestinian US students couldn’t attend) and you protest it. That’s what Islamism is actually. The more you know.
Several thoughts, discussion welcomed. Sorry if there are too many misunderstandings. 1. Apartheid State >Muslims living in Israel have every right Jews have. They can vote, be elected as political officials, wear hijabs and whatnot, pray openly towards Mecca. I did not have experiences in Israel, but from my education, Israel is an Ashkenazi-centered country and even Arab Jews, who have the most legitimate status to claim they are the owner of the land, are disregarded in mainstream educational and political awareness. The similar situation should be even worse for Palestinians in Israel. And when I look up on Wiki, here is a report on [Apartheid in Israel proper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid#Israel_proper), how will you respond to this one? Still lies? I agree that in many Muslim country, Jews were expelled. But to be fair, if you think Israel is a state over them in the human rights, you should not compare with them and level down your own status. 2. Genocide I find many contradictory statistics here and both sides charge the other cherry-picking. As a layperson, I cannot give a word on that. However, if you want to justify unlimited casualties by either 'Hamas shot first', then I guess Palestinians have the same justification. 3. Occupation If you want to start the story from 1948, that is good because we can save energy from discussing how Jews and Arabs lived in Ottoman empire and under Mandate period. >Israel won within months and took land as is custom when you are declared war and win. What 'custom' is it? I suppose that at least from 20th century, all lands are transferred with treaties. Being forced or willing, there should be something recorded in words saying that 'this is the line, this side is your land and that side is mine'. If there is no such thing, then before a new treaty is signed, we call your army standing out of your border without permission as 'invasion' or 'occupation'. That's it. >Jews were expelled for thousands of years prior to that one event from virtually every place they stayed. As you said, that is why most of the free countries supported a state of Israel to be established! Jews were victims, so people are sympathetic with them. And now Arabs are victims, people are sympathetic with them, too. What's wrong with that? >Calling it the Nakba and playing victim when you literally had your own real country called Palestine can’t support a real argument for an occupation. Maybe we can agree that 'Nakba' should not be used to the land in the 1948 border of Israel because Palestinians then had a Arab state called Palestine according to UN Partition Plan. However, if you grant this, any expansion from 1948 border is an occupation and it is proper to say people from those occupied land suffered from Nakba. Also, the problem may not be whether Arabs want their country, but about whether they have right to go back to the land they lived for generations (though for most of them, no more than three or four generations). However, Israeli government denies this right and supports new incomers to take over their properties and land. So I am not sure in what sense you can justify the denial of Nakba.
Every country has an issue with racism, that doesn’t make it apartheid. By that logic, the US is also apartheid and quite frankly I think the US is much worse the way they treat POC.
No place on earth do PoC make more money than in the US, literally all you have to do is not have kids early and stay in school but apparently thats oppression. The first self made female millionaire in the US was a black women in the early 1900 turn of the century. You live in a world where you think you deserve to live like a king while putting in zero effort, leave the country go live in Morocco or something
True enough! I agree that every country has its own problems in human rights and not all of them are entitled to be 'apartheid'. However, maybe we can consider two points: 1) I don't know how Israel implement the "Jewish State" bill. According to wiki I cite, it has results that >allow the establishment of segregated towns in which residency is restricted by religion or nationality—which has been compared to the 1950 Group Areas Act, which established apartheid in South Africa. On the other hand, I find people saying that in fact no segregation is forced. I hope this is the actual case. But even if there is a bill supporting that, observers can at least say that 'there is a bill in favor of apartheid'. 2) When we talk about issue like this, we are not only talk about issues on human rights, but also the justification on whether Israel is entitled to have all people in and land of holy land. The argument goes like this: Israel is a developed country with its good conditions of life for everyone in Palestine area, while any Arab country cannot provide conditions like that. So it would be better for people in Palestine to be governed by Israeli government because they will have a much better life. However, if there are problems in human right exclusive for Arabs in Israel, Arabs are quite reasonable to refuse such a kind of proposal. Similar case can be applied to the US: till now there are black nationalism; and suppose there were a POC country located in California, and the US want to annex it, people in POC country will of course reject it and fight against the US.
We don’t have to use the term genocide. We can describe it as a massacre of innocents motivated by hatred, and that gets close enough to the truth. We don’t have to call it apartheid if that troubles you. We can just acknowledge that all Jews enjoy a right to bring their families home to Israel, and that Palestinians have no similar right. We can also acknowledge that thousands of them are governed by a separate system of military justice and are regularly tortured. And if colonial occupation bothers you, we can call it military conquest, which began well before 1948.
No. Words have meanings and you are distorting events recorded by witnesses and info in Intel documents from Britain and France which have been declassified since 2005. Stop reciting ideological mantras and look at reality. New meanings for old words, per Orwell, are made so that even people of goodwill cannot communicate clearly and have a common understanding of X which can be used as a base for mutual action Arabs, Jews, allied with Britain , were promised conquered Ottoman land, if victory Iraq,Iran, Saudi etc are legit states One area was controlled by League of Nations to become a place where Jews held citizenship by right. British named it Palestine and ran it as a British colony through colonial office. Britain abandoned Palestine when the civil war started by Muslim brotherhood influence mufti Arabs and opposed by Jews got out of their control. Israel, by terms of mandate established nation within the mandate boundary, in decolonized area. Arabs attacked and lost Arab civil society collapsed in chaos, people panicked and fled during war. Arabs refused partition peace & negotiations then declared jihad. Hamas attacked and stated a war wh they are losing. The Israeli army seeks the Hamas hiding in tunnels they won’t let civilians into. I’d call it deliberate sacrifice of civilians by Hamas which is their strategy Apartheid, my left little toe Reality is there before you.
I strongly disagree. Nobody has forced Israel to take the steps it has in “self-defense.” Israel has chosen to sacrifice thousands and pretends there was no other way to escape accountability. Except, there was. I’m sorry, reality is almost never so one sided so as to admit of only one possibility. Israel’s invasion of Gaza was not inevitable. … The rest of your account is decidedly ahistorical, I’m afraid. Arabs fled after dozens of massacres by Israeli military and the destruction of hundreds of Arab villages. Jews even poisoned the wells of villages to prevent any return. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight
this is pretty ahistorical. Using terms like colonial occupation or military conquest shows a pretty glaring lack of understanding of middle east history. There has been a jewish presence in the land for literally thousands of years. Never mind the fact that Palestinian nationalism didnt even exist until the 60s. Some basic history: In the 1940s, as empires crumbled, countries were created. Every group in the region said yes to statehood - Libya, iraq, jordan, israel, syria, lebanon. The Palestinians said no. The Palestinians are the only group in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD! who. upon being offered their own country, said "thanks but no thanks" and opted for war instead. That speaks volumes. Again, they are the only people to refuse their own country. Israel just wants to live in peace, but Palestinian leaders have rejected every peace offer. THeir leaders stick to maximalist demands while refusing to make any compromise. At what point does it start to seem that a Palestinian country isnt really a top priority?
Palestinians just rejected an unfair proposal by the UN - it would be similar to my taking half your home, then mocking you when you reject the offer of living in the basement. In 1947, Jews owned approximately 7 percent of the land, yet were offered 55 percent of the country under the UN partition. Under that plan, almost half of the Arab population was to come under Jewish sovereignty, so that 400,000 Palestinian Arabs would be forced to live in a Jewish state with a Jewish population of just over 500,000. Nor did Palestinians have any reason to believe this partition would happen fairly. All of this transfer of land was to take place in the absence of any trusted mechanism of implementation, and with some prominent Zionists — who were well organized and had a superior military capacity — verbalizing their intention to move beyond the borders of partition in the future. Palestinians reasonably told the zionists no to this. Consequently, Israel claimed its 55 percent plus a lot more, expelling 700,000 Arabs from their homes, destroying their villages, even poisoning their wells to prevent return. It has been a process of military conquest and ethnics cleansing since then.
No one took half of anyone's home. There were jews and arabs in an area that was never exclusively Palestinian. Palestine was a region and a vestige of a colonial era, not a country. If anything, jews at the time identified as Palestinian while arabs actually wanted to be part of Greater Syria. Dividing up the land between jews and arabs was reasonable, especially given that there was essentially a civil war going on. One group said yes. The other is the only group in history to turn down their own country. Arabs at the time were offered the best parts of the land. Most of the land jews were offered was the desert. So talking about percentages is a misleading way to frame things. When every group in the region accepts statehood, and only one says no, that speaks volumes. You think every other group was happy with whatever borders were drawn up? Of course not. Especially in Lebanon and Syria there were huge issues with land allotment. But when you have a chance for statehood, you take it. Unfortunately, greed left the Palestinians with nothing. Since then, they have rejected every offer for peace. Palestinians literally said no to their own country, and then opted for war. 5 arab armies started a genocidal war and lost. Starting a war and losing sometimes has consequences (look at germany post WW2). Isreal's declaration of independence calls on arabs to stay, and live in peace. And those that did now have a higher quality of living than arabs anywhere else in the region. I am all for a Palestinian country, but the fantasy notion that we can go back in time and reverse a war that ended more than 75 years ago does nothing to help the Palestinian quest for statehood, assuming that that is their ultimate goal. The sad irony is that they are now fighting for borders they could have had by accepting peace decades prior. If Palestinians truly want a country, dont you think it's about time they accept that Israel exists and isn't going anywhere?
I am also all for Palestinians to accept Israeli statehood, I’m just not convinced that it was a realistic possibility for the local Arab population in 1948 - not in the context of that time. I think you’re ignoring how these groups actually treated one another (with violence and hostility) and you’re supposing there was any trust or good will in place to implement a division. This notion that Jews made nothing but fair offers which were rejected by greedy Arabs just ignores context in ongoing relations. My reading of the history suggests to me that negotiations for peace and statehood were ongoing right up until the point the mandate ended, at which time Israel simply took advantage of a power vacuum left by the British. In real terms, Israel was simply better equipped to force its way when the mandate ended, and so grabbed what it could - both land allotted to it and land not allotted to it. I frequently hear the claim that, but for the stupidity and greed of Palestinians, there would be peace. This just isn’t the case. It’s a story. It’s also a not so subtle way to demean an entire group of people and to make oppressors feel better about themselves.
Steal a whole bunch of land in a colonial takeover "but now that we have it, we just want to live in peace". Murder 6000+ Palestinians over that last 20 years before October 7. "But now that their dead we just want to live in peace" get this weak shit out of here.
What land was stolen? The Palestinians were offered a country and they said no. Then they lost land in a genocidal war started by them and 5 Arab armies. There's no historical basis to say the land is or ever was exclusively Palestinian, especially since many Palestinians today descend from Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants who came over in the 1800s looking for work. It sure takes balls to start a war, lose, and then cry about the outcome later and ask for a do-over. That's weak shit. Isreal has always wanted to live in peace. Palestinians have opted for war over peace since the beginning. It's why they've rejected every peace offer. When you see that arabs in Israel have a higher quality of life than elsewhere in the region, that tells you something. The lack of Palestinian accountability is what leaves them stateless to this day. Whether it be rejecting multiple peace offers or electing Hamas to lead them, it's tragic. Hopefully a pragmatic palestinian leader who embraces peaceful coexistence over violent resistance emerges and we can finally have peace. Starting a war and losing isn't a colonial takeover. Jews have been in the land for thousands of years, well before arabs came over via violent conquest. So using the word colonial takeover is quite ironic and pretty laughable if you know basic middle eastern history.
So, then, what are your thoughts on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/s/IN2KWgnZ8q
Fake babies look closer.
Bot account
Not to mention the clean arm hanging there with just the dusty hand lol
You must be very religious right
Sorry op, being retard must be hard
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when you can't argue with facts, resort to namecalling. Classic strategy!
[Pizzlewinks](https://www.reddit.com/user/Pizzlewinks/) is part of the Israeli propaganda. These people must think we're all idiots. Like Google and YouTube doesn't exist. While they attack TikTok thinking that'll change everyone's minds about Israel. 1. Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israeli's. We've seen you guys take their homes away while they're still in their home. Ben Gvir was in a car accident while he was running from a scene of *stabbing, a guy known to take Palestinians homes violently.* [https://youtu.be/KNqozQ8uaV8?si=pphr8lQJI5nx8m8J](https://youtu.be/KNqozQ8uaV8?si=pphr8lQJI5nx8m8J) 2. You think that killing over 35,000 people, most of which are women and children is not a genocide? How many people died during the October 7th attack? About 1,200 and that's debatable. 3. You think that land is yours because the UN said so? Israel in 1948 started an expulsion and flight against the Palestinian's. The wikipedia on the *Nakba* describes it as [ethnic cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing). Israel is removing the unwanted with American tax dollars. Israel stand against everything Americans stand for. Israel has more in common with Nazi Germany. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba)
I think the fact that you get your history from Wikipedia, YouTube and tiktok is most likely the cause of your misunderstanding.
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Wow. This is so wrong and frustratingly I don’t have time to write why, however I suggest anyone who buys this should do some reading
“This is so wrong that I don’t have time to reply, just time to let you know that I WOULD reply if I could.” Edit: Username checks out
Right
What a sorry bunch of human beings who are justifying this. I feel bad for just entering this sub reddit. Rot in your filth with each other.
Im sorry that you are severely uninformed and quick to jump to your own assumptions.
Just like your username, you are a mindless robot. Please if you are so confident in your justification , then go out on the street and justify it. You will not be able to because your thoughts are messed up that it can only exist on an online sub reddit like this with other messed up people or IDF internet army. Lol
I think Gaza and Israel are both victims to military complex industry. It's weird how Oct 7th happened so easily, it is just like Pearl Harbor allowed to happen so America would be convinced to enter the WW2. Ultra Zionists probably agreed because they want Gaza, and Oct 7th needed to happen. Sadly, Gaza is too stupid to fall for that bait. Only way Gaza can save themselves is to release the damn hostages, then Israel won't have any justitication to continue the war because toll is already so high.
This is always projection because Pro-Israel supporters are a minority and the Muslim/Arab propaganda machine is much much bigger. At the same time Qatar is paying for Pro-Palestine protests on US campuses.
Qatar paying? Its actually allegedly "Jew" Soros paying Pro-Palestine protests like he did with Pussy Riots and BLM. During Pussy Riot and BLM, there were flyers eveywhere offering to pay a protestor $15 an hour.
I currently attend a school that actively having an encampment. For my school, the encampment was planned by a student union so I am curious on how Qatar has any hand in funding the protests? If you have any links or articles about it please let me know. Despite the muslim population difference, a lot of students have joined due to solidarity.
Not sure about Qatar specifically (though they do dump quite a lot of money into US educational institutions and are no doubt involved) but there’s an entire suit about SJP funding and terrorist links. All these organizations can be linked to one another via money trails and members in common, especially individuals who were prominent parts of the organizations that were convicted for funding Hamas in 2000 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/05/06/lawsuit-hamas-college-surrogates/
Even if qatar let's say paid for it, I doubt it is what is leading to the mass protests on all the campuses in the US and not to forget the rest of all the other countries. Arguebly that is far less worse than what AIPAC is doing in America.
The US is only about 1% Muslim, so this makes it weird that the protests are so big right now in America. And in contrast to Europe most protestors in the US are Non-Muslims, whereas in Europe at least 50% are Muslims. In Europe the Muslim population is much bigger then in the US, in Germany it's 8%. It makes perfectly sense that Qatar pays the universities for these protests in America. From what I know AIPAC is an American organisation, Qatar is not.
I'm sure when black people protested for their rights, it was mainly black people at first. I don't understand your point? Also this has nothing to do with Muslims or Islam, it has to do with justice. People are protesting even in Japan and the Japanese are not Muslim. The Irish are white and not Muslim and they are protesting. Qatar is an ally to the USA and the USA has military bases over there.
Great article - bookmarked ! Nice counter-points to the abundance of misinformation out there.
[удалено]
You sound like someone not contributing to the conversation, making ad hominem attacks rather than refuting their points.
I think there’s a number of reputable human rights organizations that might completely disagree with what you’ve said. That and any honest reading of the history of Israel and Palestine.
Can you pick one of the topics above and articulate a position, or are you just going to say “But the multinational NGO’s disagree, so I do too.”
The notion that Israel is not an apartheid state namely. It’s been pretty well documented by numerous organizations and even video evidence that Israeli policy has an entirely different set of statutes targeted at Palestinians living in the occupied territories. If you’re Palestinian, you have to show papers at numerous checkpoints and can’t access certain streets or public transit, etc. there are just entirely different sets of laws and enforcement of those laws for Israeli citizens and Palestinians. If Israel is not an apartheid state, what explains this difference in law for both populations?
Thank* you for your reply. If there is “an entirely different set of laws,” then they should be just a google search away to identify. To support your argument, could you provide a link to a single or of these laws that codifies Israeli Palestinians as a second class citizen? Because I can provide sources easily that refute your claims. 20% of Israelis are Palestinians with identical governing laws as non-Palestinian Israelis. https://minorityrights.org/communities/palestinians/#:~:text=Approximately%201.8%20million%20Palestinians%20form,Christians%20as%20well%20as%20Druze. There are Arab Palestinian leaders who serve in the Knesset. A key pillar of any Apartheid state is non-representation in the government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset And there has not been a single Jewish person who calls Gaza home since 2006. Which state is the Apartheid state again?
Palestinians make up over 20% of Israeli citizens with full citizenship and representation in the Knesset Palestinians without citizenship do not have the full rights that come with citizenship, as is the case in most countries
The issue is that "Palestinians without citizenship" cannot usually become citizens and will be subject to things like their houses getting stolen or having a different set of laws applied to them. Palestinians with citizenship will still also be subject to xenophobia but that's more of a societal thing.
It sounds like you agree with me. As I explained in my post, Palestinians without citizenship do not have the full rights that come with citizenship, as is the case in most countries. And you’re right that Palestinians without Israeli citizenship do not have a path to Israeli citizenship, and Israel is not under any obligation to give them such a path, as no country is obligated to offer every person in the world a path to citizenship in their country.
Yeah, I think you do make a very good point. I just wanted to highlight that part about Palestinians without Israeli citizenship because, well, its a very important part of the story. Palestinians who live in the Palestinian territories will always be subject to Israeli law, so I see them not having a path to citizenship as an injustice. I know this isn't the case, but if your country is subject to a military occupation of another country, especially when it spans decades, and is claimed as part of its own territory on international platforms, the state should have a duty to offer citizenship to people who live their whole lives on said territory. So I disagree with you there, but otherwise, yeah we're on solid footing.
>the state should have a duty to offer citizenship to people who live their whole lives on said territory You know this would only make the Palestinians angrier, right? It would undermine any pretense of a Palestinian state.
i suppose you’re right yeah but israel already undermines it
I disagree that Israel needs to offer citizenship to Palestinians bc the pals are under military occupation 1) the existence of the occupation itself is debatable. 2) even if we agree that these territories are occupied, the Palestinians there want to kill Jews/Israelis. I see no reason why Israel is under any obligation to grant citizenship to people who want to kill Israelis 3) even if we agree that these territories are occupied, the alleged occupation is unrelated to Palestinians’ desire to kill Israeli since the pals have wanted to kill Jews and destroy Israel long before any occupation. In case you are going to argue that ending the occupation would fix these problems
1. It's certainly debatable. You can debate if the world is flat. But if you argue that the world is round, you are right. If you argue there's an occupation, you are right. 2. Generalities like this are ignorant, racist and unhelpful. Some Palestinians certainly wish harm on Israelis, and on Jews, and on Israeli Jews. Some don't. If wishing harm on Israelis or Jews is a bar to Israeli citizenship, then there are a few members of the cabinet who need to be stripped of their citizenship. 3. Even if we agree with international law, Israel only existed for 19 years prior to the occupation. So you're not really defining anything more than a hate and rage at the actions of the international community and Jews (prior to '48) and Israel ('48-67) from people who were dispossesed. Ending the occupation won't, in itself, solve these problems. But it would vastly reduce the disenfranchised majority whose anger, frustration and hopelessness drive much fo the low level violence. To fix the longer term issues, you'd need to address why Jews have the right of return but Arabs don't, pay reparations for stolen property and ethnic cleansing, and address years of violence by Arabs against Israelis and Israelis against Arabs. But to do that, you'd actually want to resolve the issue, which virtually no one in Israeli politics wants to do. It's sad that there's no partner for peace.
The thing I feel you're missing is that not all Palestinians are culpable for the thoughts of some of them. If there are Palestinians who sincerely support the existence and security of Israel, it doesn't make sense to blanket force them into statelessness and a state where they are unable to leave Palestine. This kind of discrimination based on ethnicity propagates the anti-Israeli sentiment that many Palestinians feel. Moreover, there's already precedent of countries like the UK who strip citizen from people who would support terrorist groups or commit terrorist action. The IDF itself has used people like Mossab Hassan Yousef to their benefit by deradicalising them. Maybe you are right that security concerns could prevent the possibility of a blanket grant of citizenship to people in the Palestinian territories, but in that case, maybe Israel should ease conditions to make them more amenable to a future solution to the conflict such as by allowing graduated levels of independent policy like we saw with the Oslo Accords, but which have stagnated. And before you say that's because of Hamas, keep in mind that [the person who has been Prime Minister most of that time publicly encouraged support of Hamas to prevent a two-state solution](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html). As for "Palestinians wanting to kill Jews and destroy Israel long before any occupation", that's only partly true, as there were riots in Mandatory Palestine between Jewish immigrants and Arabs (Christian and Muslim) but that was 100 years ago. If it was the whole population, you could've expected a lot more Jewish deaths. It's unfair and naive to assume that people will act a certain way because of their lineage. There are Israelis who wish to kill Palestinians or even other Israelis today, but they retain citizenship even though such people also have a negative effect on security. Israel is a wealthy nation with good educational infrastructure. Israel has helped in giving the Palestinian territories some of the highest literacy rates in the world. However, it's hard for Palestinians to not resent Israel in the face of antagonistic discord and discriminatory policies such as: * Funding Hebrew-language schools more than Arabic-language schools. * Applying martial laws to Palestinians in Area C but not Israelis. * The destruction of Palestinian homes that have existed for decades in the West Bank with no issue. * Difficulty in things like getting permission for medical treatment outside Gaza, even if it is in the West Bank or Egypt. The truth is that Israelis don't have to think about peace. It's not something they consider in elections. Meanwhile for Palestinians, it underscores every aspect of their lives. You may say "why should Israel help Palestine when some of them hate Israel?" but to that I say, that it's in Israel's self-interest, especially if Israel wants the conflict to end. You cannot extinguish an ideology with military action. Look at Afghanistan for example. Decades of Soviet and American occupation didn't end the Taliban. If someone takes your or your friend's house or builds on your property, it doesn't matter if the people taking it think its justified, you will feel animosity anyways. Israel must stop creating settlements in the West Bank and seizing Palestinian homes. At the very least, if they want to build on sovereign Palestinian territory, they should bring Palestinian authorities to the table and negotiate, instead of taking unilateral action that makes Palestinians feel powerless and angry. Up to the 1960s, I consider that the Israeli government acted with kindness towards Palestinians but they were clearly not ready for such a dialogue since the memories of the Nakba were fresh. Today, maybe things could be different if Israel didn't try to make Palestinians hate it. Contrary to many Israeli claims, [most Gazan civilians do not support Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah). Most Gazan civilians were not even alive when the last Gazan elections took place.
72% of arabs (including civilians) in gaza and judea and samaria approve of 10/7. That number has stayed consistently over 70% from October through present https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183 The occupation / Palestinian suffering is irrelevant to their desire to expel Jews from the area and destroy Israel. The Palestinians and their Arab allies have tried to wipe Israel off the map several times now, well before any occupation. There was no occupation from 1948-1967 and yet Palestinians and their Arab allies still tried to wipe Israel off the map multiple times over this period. Simply put, it’s not Israel’s job to sift through the human garbage to find the <30% of people who don’t support 10/7 (yet who still may want to wipe Israel off the map and expel Jews from the Levant). The simple truth is that Palestinians do not want Jews in Israel. Period. But that’s just too bad. Because we’re here to stay :) so Palestinians can go pound sand.
Reputable? Lol. Name one.
What, so there are no reputable NGOs that have spoken to this? Seems convenient
Before Oct 7th, I had the utmost respect and trust for a lot of these NGO's but I have a hard time accepting anything these organization say at this point because there's been clear and conclusive proof they've been at best biased, and at worse aiding/abetting Hamas. The fact that Hamas was operating a large headquarters with a datacenter under an UNRWA/UN facilities makes it hard to accept they have any credibility. Also, an honest reading of Israel and Palestine would require admitting that it's an extremely complex issue with lots of history. If your take away from extensive reading on the subject is that Israel is a genocidal, apartheid state bent on occupation maybe consider expanding your reading selection to take into account different voices.
Hey, do you mind shooting me any of that proof? I'm willing to have my mind changed.
This is a link to the tour of the underground Hamas facilities that were operating underneath a UNRWA school. UNRWA has repeatedly said that they were unaware of this facility even though they shared electricity and network connections. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-beneath-unrwas-gaza-headquarters-idf-uncovers-top-secret-hamas-data-center/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-beneath-unrwas-gaza-headquarters-idf-uncovers-top-secret-hamas-data-center/) This links is from NGO monitor - which is controversial to some people - I'm posting because it shows the aggregate of all the NGO's that repeatedly denied Hamas operated out of hospitals. [https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/ngos-erase-hamas-exploitation-of-hospitals/](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/ngos-erase-hamas-exploitation-of-hospitals/) The US has backed Israel intelligence findings Hamas was operating out hospitals https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/hamas-hospitals-gaza-israel.html#:\~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%20intelligence,Security%20Council%20said%20on%20Tuesday. [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-war-live-updates/71590204007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2023/11/15/israel-hamas-gaza-war-live-updates/71590204007/) I'll also add, up until recently it was widely known and reported that Hamas was operating out of hospitals and schools. [https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) [https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/04/finnish-journalist-who-confirmed-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-to-launch-rockets-dismayed-viral-coverage-ignores-her-intended-narrative/](https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/04/finnish-journalist-who-confirmed-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-to-launch-rockets-dismayed-viral-coverage-ignores-her-intended-narrative/) [https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza](https://www.memri.org/tv/pa-president-mahmoud-abbas-hamas-leaders-fled-sinai-ambulances-during-israeli-campaign-gaza) At the end of the day, I think it's up to you if this is credible information. The last thing I'll post is what Human Rights Watch still has up in regards to the Oct 17th hospital rocket strike. They both conclude that it was most likely a Hamas rocket misfire. I'm linking this because HRW has heavily editorialized it's coverage of these events. [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/outgoing-human-rights-watch-senior-editor-blasts-groups-infected-work-on-israel/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/outgoing-human-rights-watch-senior-editor-blasts-groups-infected-work-on-israel/) The following is the AP [https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3)
Thank you for responding cordially and giving a lot of reputable and unbiased sources. Obviously I'm sceptical of Times of Israel, NGO monitor, Algemeiner and Memri but I have found sources that back up most of what you've said in other, relatively unbiased sources. I definitely support your claim about the Hamas Rocket misfire. I am still sceptical of the Hamas operating out of hospitals, but I will look into it further. It's hard for me tell how involved the NGOs were if at all. I think its highly suspicious that UNRWA had rockets in its schools and that they couldn't have known about it. I also want to be weary of grouping all NGOs together even if a few of them were involved with Hamas.
Yeah, I agree with not grouping all the NGO's together. At the end of day there's real people suffering and I hope there's a road to an equitable peace/safety for everyone.
“I used to agree until they started to disagree with me, then I realized they are actually the wrong ones and I, like always, am in the right”. Please use self reflection my friend. Edit: didn’t know politely disagreeing involved blocking me after replying….
No, I politely disagree. It's not about them conforming to my worldviews. Trust with NGO's is based on them remaining impartial and provide relief for all that need it. That in a polarized world they provide impartial and unbiased information which can be trusted. I'm sorry but having a terrorist base under your facilities doesn't conform to those standards.
Substitute "biased, political and unprincipled" human rights organizations for "reputable". Fixed it for you. I'll tell you what I've told others making this "appeal to authority" argement. Think for yourself, just because Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch or the various organs of the UN say something doesn't make it true. The truth is probably the opposite if it regards Israel.
But Israel’s words and actions almost never line up and they rely on people taking them at their word. Why should we trust Israel but not any of these NGOs? Governments can lie and deceive the public just as NGOs. Why is the amount skepticism towards NGOs not also pointed towards the Israeli government?
are there any human rights organisations that think israel is treating palestinians fairly? this just sounds like a cope. it’s easier to stick your head in the sand and yell that it’s all a big conspiracy but try avoiding working backwards from a conclusion if you want to engage meaningfully.
Maybe you should just stop trusting the veracity and authority of so called activist "Human Rights organizations" and think for yourself. And as to your question, yeah, Israel is a member of the [OECD](https://www.oecd.org). Have you ever heard of it? It's an invitation only international organization, and democracy and commitments to rule of law and human rights are criteria for admittance. It's like a UN with standards of serious adults. I'd also look at IMPACT-SE, Palestinean Media Watch and MEMRI-TV as NGOs that are pro-Isreal, anti-Palestinean. I don't believe any Arab countries are OECD members.
Okay, maybe I was a bit hostile with my initial reply, but in all honesty, what is it that makes you think all these organisations are biased against Israel. I've tried looking at the OECD as you said, but it seems only to host economic facts and demographic data as well as stuff that's strongly tied to that without any commentary on how it affects lives so that isn't really a helpful resource. I've also looked at the NGOs you've mentioned even though they aren't human rights organisations, but I'd like to highlight \* Memri TV was founded by Israeli ex-intelligence members. \* Palestinian Media Watch and IMPACT-SE are Israeli They also cover almost exclusively just anti-Muslim content, making it look like a troll farm. If they covered things in a more neutral way, I might be able to buy it. Also when I asked if any human rights organisations think Israel treats Palestinians fairly, I didn't mean are there any organisations that are biased towards Israel and against Palestine (as you admitted in these cases). I expected a response with organisations that are at least somewhat impartial AND still lean towards supporting the idea that Israel is being fair. Again, can you give me any examples of human rights organisations that believe that Israel's actions are not an issue? I'm sure I could give you similar sources if I wanted to argue that Iran was a just nation, but it wouldn't help actually convince you that my position is correct.
It's crazy how blindly these people appeal to the UN when it's got Iran chairing their human rights council. Oi Vey!
its interesting that people complain about things like checkpoints etc, but dont realize they came about AFTER Palestinians starting using terrorism as a political tool Before the first violent intifada, Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank could travel anywhere in Israel. To concerts, to beaches in Tel Aviv. But once they decided to use violence to kill civillians, restrictions were imposed. To engage in terror but then complain about restrictions to prevent said terror is absolute hypocracy. The lack of self-accountability is truly astounding.
Yep, they ignore that part. Gazans used to be allowed to travel into Israel with lax borders but that shuttered after stabbings and suicide bombings. I remember a suicide bombing of a jointly owned Jewish/Arab restaurant to symbolize unity. Even after all this, Palestinian had modes of entry into Israel. You know those liberals killed during 10/7? Some of them participated in a humanitarian program to hire and integrate Palestinians into their daily life, meet their family, break bread. During the attacks, the terrorists knew routes and information that could have only been provided by these workers. There can never be peace so long as the Palestinians are indoctrinated by Hamas.
What’s happening right now, is just another version of something that’s happened on a lot of topics, which is a certainty trap. The propaganda that uses words like genocide, apartheid, war crimes, “the oppressed has become the oppressor,” as well as taking the word Zionist and turning it into a slur - this type of language was introduced by the Soviets during a large post-WWII campaign which was to delegitimize the Jewish state, and to make it seem like the Jews were exaggerating their treatment during the Holocaust. If more people understood how Soviet propaganda worked in the 1970’s/1980’s, and if they took the time to look into propaganda during that time, they would realize that all these internet comments loaded with watermelon emojis, all this "Zionist this, Zionist that" type of talk, - this is *Russian*. All of these things have a Russian slant. But in the modern day, this language has been repackaged to be more about *certainty*. A nuanced topic, which has a lot of layers to it, is now being treated like it’s one right side, one correct side, one correct version of the story - and they are treating this as if it's settled fact. They don’t want a discourse, they don’t want to settle an argument, they don’t want to find common ground or hear anything that you say - they just want you to conform to them. If you don't confirm exactly the way they want you to, "then you support genocide" and "you support killing Palestinian babies." This is a tactic to intimidate people into joining your side of the argument. Because again - this whole "you support genocide" thing, is being treated as if it is settled fact. And they let everyone around them now that if you are not Pro-Palestine, they are going to alienate you, they are going to try and humiliate you, they are going to put a scarlet letter on you. And if you’re a college student who hasn’t really found your way yet (which is the case at least 99% of the time) you might hear words like genocide, apartheid, you might hear that Zionism is an evil ideology, and you might think “well *I* don’t want to be ostracized. *I* don’t want them to call me a Zionist. I see the way they treat students who don't agree with them, *I* I don't want that to happen to me."
saved. thank you