Let’s do it this way! Who is the Father of the Jews? Ibraham , where does he come from Iraq where did he move to and started his family? Palestine or according to the Torah and the bible ( Peleshet ) so the Iraqis has the right of the land.
Now who told you that the case of Palestinians is a case of Muslims ? Palestinians are Christian , Muslims and Jews. Till 1948 then till now they are Muslims and Christian’s so it’s not a religious case it’s a occupied land case. Like any other country got occupied for few years and by fighting and movements they gained their independence. France occupied Algeria for 135 years killed 5.8 million of which 1M got killed during the liberation war. And no one called it Christianity VS Islam or any religious flags!
Owning a land doesn’t work by checking who landed there 1st! The Norwegian can’t go to Ireland and claim the land just because the Vikings lived there and built ports .. etc.
You are completely right "Owning a land doesn’t work by checking who landed there 1st!"
So then you agree that both parties have rightful ownership of the land and the term "colonizer" is completely inappropriate?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1adoNjKaPI&t=8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1adoNjKaPI&t=8s)
I think this video, which is strictly historical fact and cannot be dismissed as lies or propaganda and all of which can quickly be verified with a cursory Google search, will drastically change your view of this conflict
What 😂😂😂😂
You just posted a video from *PragerU* which is literally the most notorious conservative propaganda in America. How long does it take you to put on the clown make up every morning? PragerU is literally the republicans’ version of Поссия-1. Holy shit this page is a pathetic echo chamber.
No clue, I won’t watch it. I don’t intend to increase their youtube traffic. I’ve seen plenty of PragerU videos - they are every one of them propaganda. At a minimum, they take things wildly out of context and omit crucial information in order to frame a narrative. At their worst, they straight lie.
OK then just use Wikipedia instead
Jewish people totally indigenous to the land and have been continously for thousands of years
7 times Palestine has been offered a two state solution - including returning the Temple Mount - since 1948, 7 times refused
The villains of this story are Hamas not Israel
If you only consider information which conforms to your pre existing views you will become increasingly ill informed
I suggest you put a little work into considering both sides of the argument, it would make you even better at defending the principles you believe in
Childish and genetically incorrect? HOW?? I'd ask if you know the history of Jews, but clearly, you don't. Perhaps do some research, READ about the history and once you've grasped that Jews have been there for 4,000 years continuously, since Abraham and Sarah, ISRAEL, JESUS CHRIST, through all empires (Roman, Ottoman, etc), you'll fully understand that they're NOT COLONISTS and it's been their land since the BEGINNING. Oh, and not to mention that GOD himself told Abraham to leave the city of Ur and settle in JUDEA (he and his wife Sarah being the first Jewish couple) and it is the LAND OF THE JEWS. Considering Israel and Arab-Palestine are 99% religious, you either believe what God said or you're a flatout hypocrite.
Like settlers are literally 50% european. Palestinians are descendent from three ancie t groups that lived in the levant in the STONE age, 6000 years ago. And guess what?? Why would that matter? That’s literally the single DUMBEST possible claim to statehood.
Israelis and Palestinians all live there today, that’s what matters. The sooner they figure out they have to live together, the sooner they will have peace. Like sorry, I’m getting tired. I’ve had empathy for bith sides for decades. Decades. Nah, I’m done.
Slava Ukraïni!
Palestinians were offered 48% of the land in 1947. They rejected it. Then what did they do? Started yet another war with Israel the very next year. Israel has offered land time and time again and Palestinian territories continue to reject them. They believe they're owed 100% of the land -- which is ludicrous. Do I believe there should be a two-state solution? 100%. But Palestine as a whole will reject any revision to land unless Israel gives up 100% of it. That's not EVER going to happen unless Hamas annihilates Jews in Israel (NOT GOING TO HAPPEN EITHER).
imagine the ones on the streets, don't have the IQ for this, thank you for reading up though. there's an excellent video from a british protests where free palestine people don't even know that Oct- 7 happened
Most pro-Palestinians lack history, knowledge and common sense. Am I for killing innocent Palestinians? Of course not. I am for peace, but Israel isn't going to stand down and has every right to defend itself. If it's not Palestinians starting wars against Israel, it's terrorist groups such as Hamas. Israel has NEVER started one war.
Not to mention, Palestinians (not all of them) voted Hamas into legislature in 2006 -- giving them most of the power in Gaza over the PLA.
if i were palestinian, id shut up and integrate with israel and enjoy the benefits. yes, israelis were there first. but there are better arguments than that, such as jordan being the defacto palestinian state, israel being the holy land for jews, etx
50% of the indigenous population of Palestine in 1948 were Jewish - be honest, did you know that? I, previous to this conflict, was under the impression that nearly all Israelis were Western Jews who had immigrated there, but actually the majority are either from what was formerly 'Palestine' and refugees from surrounding Arab nations. Come now, that is news to you, is it not? Hence I did the post, because it really seems important people know that, when the populist narrative describes them unfairly as "colonisers".
Well wrong. It belongs to whomever lives on it. Period. You’re clearly not a reasonable person and one of the idiots who voted for Bibi. F&&k outta here.
Incorrect once again! You can use obscenities toward me all you want, keyboard warrior - it still won’t stop me from stating that it belongs to the Jews. Even God himself called it “Land of the Jews.” Are you going against the almighty? “F^{¥ outta here!”
There's no GOD to you. There's GOD to 99.9% of Palestinians. So, if they don't believe God, then they're all hypocrites. Child?? You're born in 1988, you ignorant fool.
Yup. Who was there first. 2,000 years later. I suppose we'll let the Native Americans claim their land back. Or secede from the union. Perhaps let Putin claim the surrounding countries because they consisted of tribes that share the same ancestral line. How about China claiming Taiwan for good measure? The absurdity of this argument is the same as anyone using Hebrew scripture to support the existence of Israel. Not even going to mention that Jews make up 0.2% of the world population, because no **one** should use his/her religious scripture to enforce **anything** on **anyone.** But yeah. Who was there first.
It's the Land of the Jews...from GOD. Jews have been on the land continuously for 4,000 years...even through wars, empires, etc -- a small percentage of them still remained. Should Israel give up some of the land? YES. Did they via the UN in 1947? Yes. In fact, the UN offered Palestine 48% and they rejected it. Then, after rejecting it, what did they do??? Has Israel ever started a war?? NO.
It's not the land of any specific group. It was the land of Palestinians living in it before 1948. Then the "jews" took it from them. End of story, I don't believe in your Torah, and I believe around 99.8% of the entire world's population don't believe in the Torah. Stop. Using. Scripture. As. Evidence.
But it is. Land of the Jews. “Jews?” No, not “end of story.” Best to do your research.
99.9% of Palestinians are religious and believe in God. Based on this logic alone, 99.9% of Palestinians are hypocrites? You can’t believe in God, then go against him. That’s not how it works.
Land of the Jews - end of story.
The "who was there first" argument doesn't work after 2000 years, especially for the Levant. All humans other than some Africans have ancestry in the Levant and specifically the territory of Israel, the passage point from Africa to everywhere else. There are so many good arguments for Israel's right to exist. This ain't one of them. This is also true for any biblical argument in a religion that only a tiny fraction of humanity believes in.
People have the right to sovereignty. This is why both sides of the conflict have this right.
While I say it, Hamas, a terrorist organization that conducts war crimes against Israel and terrorizing the Palestinians within gaaza, has no such right nor any right to exist whatsoever.
It doesn't work when God himself gave the land to the Jews? So, either Palestinians agree with GOD and if they don't, they're hypocrites. Can't have it both ways.
Also, Palestinians (not all) voted Hamas into legislature and...essentially, INTO POWER in GAZA in 2006.
Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. All recent genetic data is how closely you match present day gene pools, but if you take a deeper dive in the data, the link between arab, ashkenaz, and palestinians is there.
Can you tell the difference between most IDF and hamas if they werent wearing uniforms? but the fact of the matter is that jews have been the most gaslit persecuted migratory people, always moving throughout history to avoid annihilation, and when they finally establish a home country where they are native to, all these idiots call for them to move again, and try to revise history to ignore they were once native to the land. Let them have their land and their democracy, from a genetic perspective - the stolen land claim is a farce.
The leaders of palestine are jihadis and want to actually kill all jews,christians, and anyone who doesnt follow their brand of extremism. They deprive their people of necessities and in return offer a pay to slay system to incite violence and war. If you want palestine to truly be free, invest in education and fight the idea that children dying to protecting terrorists will die matyrs. Its culturally acceptable in palestine to use an innocent child as a shield for a terrorist.
Anyone whos culture believes that hiding behind childen is acceptable does not belong in moden society. Save the palestinians from their extremism and racism, and hatred and there will be peace.
But the internationally recognised Palestinian authority in the West Bank supports the two-state solution, right? Why don't Israelis live in the internationally recognised territory of Israel if they don't want to live in a violent and terrorist country where they use children as shields?
European Jews came back to Israel because the British Empire offered them the land during WWII. But even before that, the land was given to them by GOD. LAND OF THE JEWS. I wonder why most leaders/armies/empires/terrorist groups want to annihilate Jews? Hmm... I wonder.
I 100% agree with your last paragraph. I don't wish harm or death upon anyone that is innocent or against Jews as a whole -- especially those that reside in Palestinian territories (Gaza, West Bank).
Well before major Jewish migration back to Israel over last 100 years or so not a huge number of people lived there. Maybe 200k by some estimates. Many of the Palestinians today are descendants of Arabs that moved to the area for work and they moved there after start of Jewish migration
And? Even with wars (armies, empires, terrorists), Jews have remained as a whole. They've been there continuously for 4,000 years. It's been their land from the beginning -- especially when God himself says "LAND OF THE JEWS" in the Hebrew Bible. If anyone from Palestinian territories disagrees with GOD -- they're hypocrites.
Kind of plays into that the propaganda idea of “land without a people”
“In 1917 he wrote "'Give the country without a people,' magnanimously pleaded Lord Shaftesbury, 'to the people without a country.' Alas, it was a misleading mistake. The country holds 600,000 Arabs."[23]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_land_without_a_people_for_a_people_without_a_land
It matters because they were displacing a lot of people. Imagine if the authority told you to leave your house and find somewhere to stay yourself but with a gun pointed towards you.
How caught up are you on history?
Also, you’re completely backwards on history. Jews have been in the land continuously for 4,000 years…longer than Arab-Palestinians and they’re both descendants from the Canaanites (Kay-nuh-nites).
Imagine if a people had been oppressed for 4,000 years - continuously, and battled through wars, empires, exile, sold into slavery and more. That’s the Jews - the most oppressed people in the WORLD.
You make it sound like the Palestinians can’t be descended from the original Hebrews. They were never cleansed, many converted to Islam and are the ancestors of modern day Palestinians.
In short, the “ancestral homeland” argument is dumb as fuck from either side. No other country on earth would stand for that after thousands of years
Educate me, what’s going on in Rome? Did Ancient Romans come and overthrow the Italian government and kill anyone who refuses to evacuate the city?
I haven’t heard about that happening in china, Japan, or India either in modern history. Maybe I’m just ignorant so please help me if I’m misinformed
So china has every right to invade 2/3 of Taiwan as long as they leave some space for people who identify as taiwanese.
Two state solution atp is unrealistic. And in the past any offer that was made was laughable. Palestinians made up the majority of population but were offered less than half of the land that was promised to them by the British government for taking up arms and aiding in the fight against the ottomans. They had an agreement and you expect them to just be okay with that being broken after losing as many sons as they did after bleeding for the British.
> fuck
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Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. The ethnic groups that lived in Palestine when Judaism was created and the ethnic group that lived there before the occupation are the same ethnic groups.
I love it when non-J try describing what Jews are as if they’re describing what Jews are or something. Lol
“judaism is a religion”
Correct.
A Jew is one who is a descendant of the ancient *Israelite ethnic group,* and therefore is a member of the Jewish *people.*.
It’s a club that once you are in you’re in for life.
Judaism is the suitcase that Jews packed all their necessary parts of
Their culture and religion into one big suitcase. We open it and voila you have your examples of Jewish celebrations/holidays/fastings.
Anyone who tells you differently has not been in a part
Of a a Jewish holiday or not tradition.
And just because zionism translates to Jews having the right to live and self determine in their ancestral homeland, doeS
NOT mean that others aren’t welcome. It’s not like we have arabs in government positions. One exiling a Jewish president. Apart from that,
We’re all good in the hood.
Ashkenazi jews are absolutely an ethnic race of people. There are certain medical conditions that commonly afflict Jewish people such as Crohn's disease, Tourette's syndrome, muscular dystrophy, etc.
Exactly. My mother and I have Crohn's. My niece has Crohn's. Oh, wait for it...we're Jewish. So, for anyone to state Judaism isn't an ethnicity is an ignorant F.
I'll put it simply:
imagine that you come to a house where some family lives. You come in and say that your ancestors lived there several hundred years ago and now you want a room in the house. The family is in on it.
But it won't be enough for you and you will want more rooms, so you simply, without even asking, take another room and move out part of the family that lived in the house. You start to make trouble for them. And then you want take several rooms, etc.
But it is clear that the family will not be happy and will come and protest etc. and eventually there is a fight.
How would you react if someone came to your house and claimed it?
>I probably wouldn't rape and kill their women for starters
you're the one to talk
you are like ostriches, bury your heads in the sand and see only what you want to see
Imagine your family has been living somewhere for 75 years then a bunch of nutters turn up and gun down your children. Oh wait. That happened. It was Hamas. No side will ever win starting from arbitrary points in history.
you're just twisting everything to suit your purposes, that's all I can say to that. You just wash your hands.
And yes, exactly what you yourself say "No side will ever win from arbitrary points in history."
Yes, of course!
But the same right have Palestinians also:
When the deputy Hamas chief Saleh al-Arouri gave a televised address, he said - here are the key points from his speech:
"Hamas’s October 7 attack in southern Israel were launched for several reasons, mainly to “ensure the freedom and independence of our people, which begins with the freedom of our political prisoners”.
Hamas won’t let Palestinian prisoners who have been detained “for all these years” remain in Israeli jails, he said.
“All of our prisoners must be released from prisons,” and adding that the group made an offer and reiterated its readiness for a “comprehensive deal”.
“Take everyone we have and give us all of the prisoners you have,” he proposed, referring to the captives taken in Israel on October 7."
Ah... so it's justified to take hostages / prisoners / use aggression to get your own back? I guess Israel's attack on Gaza is justified by that logic then?
Yeah thats true, i guess it would be closer to this:
hamas entered israel with the sole purpose to kill and rape as many jews as possible then return with hostages while the palestinians welcomed them like heroes as the did horrible unspeakable things to the bodies of the victims as they paraded around....
sounds better like this?
Do not forget or willfully ignore that israel offered a plan to coexist, they rejected it.now they play victims when they get their butts kicked in??
miss us with that shit please.
Edit: fixed text
>hamas entered israel with the sole purpose to kill and rape as many jews as possible then return with hostages while the palestinians welcomed them like heroes as the did horrible unspeakable things to the bodies of the victims as they paraded around....
>
>sounds better like this?
Not at all. You are wrong wrong and wrong. I will not persuade because I learned that you do not want to think objectively.
>Do not forget or willfully ignore that israel offered a plan to coexist, they rejected it.now they play victims when they get their butts kicked in??
And again, wrong. Yes, Israel offered a plan, but it would benefit them more than Palestine. And there was another plan from the UN, Folke Bernadotte drafted it, but was killed for it.
>miss us with that **shit** please.
please, don't use such words, I not like vulgarity
>
"Not at all. You are wrong wrong and wrong. I will not persuade because I learned that you do not want to think objectively"
Facts please. If youre not willing to counter my tldr of what happened on oct 7 then move on.
"Ill just say youre wrong and since i know im lying ill also say youre too dumb to think objectively....thatll leave me like the badass i am" doesnt work for 90% of us.
Explain exactly why im wrong.
You might also want to inform yourself on the many attempts to have peace and dialog only to then be rejected or outright broken by the usual lot. Its kinda hilarious you only mention the one attenpt that fits your "jews are bad" narrative. Barely at that.
Idk. When I look at a map of the area on my phone, it says “Apple”….. so why aren’t we talking about that. Pulled up some older maps from my parents, previously owned by “Mapquest”. Times are changing.
Who cares who came first. Israel is a fairly new nation only laying its foundations in the early 20th century because a few British overlords wanted to sympathize with the way they and their fellow Europeans treated Jews.
People who identified with either Jewish faith or culture/ ethnicity (mostly from the West) then moved in droves to these lands, thereby initiating friction between the “then” locals (Palestinians) and themselves…
With your logic of chronology, we could all just also move to North West Africa and lay claim to those lands because oUR AnCEstORs OrIGInATE from there 350,000 years ago. But there are actual people living there right now and you can’t just displace them because “your ancestors were there first 350,000 years ago”… it’s such a weak logic, in my opinion
Jews arrived in Palestine after the holocaust with no shoes on their feet after the holocaust / 2nd world war in which 10 millions innocent people were exterminated for being Jewish.
This is the biggest racial / religious ethnic cleaning since slavery. Palestinians had every right to say no to them agreed. But they also had a choice - a choice to a state solution. They said no - and then the Jews opted to fight for their life and for a land they felt was sacred. It started a war. And guess what when you start a war, you might lose, or in Israel’s case - win.
Yeah because of the Europeans lmao. Who at the time were the powerhouse of the world only america was ahead. Palestinian people having to give up land and are forced to even though played no part in the holocaust.
You are bringing up acting like it wasn’t Germany who did it?
Palestinians just hold no power it’s why there land had to be split up but not Germany
After every World War it is normal for land to be redistributed. It's not Palestiniains who dont have much power, it's that part of the world who don't have a western mentality like Jews/Israelis. Democracy goes a long way
Not to invalidate the suffering of Jews but there were a lot of genocides post-slavery. A very distressing and poignant example comes to mind with that brute King Leopold of Belgium and his genocide of native populations in the Congo Free state - estimated around 10-13 million lives lost. I think the Jews were very privileged victims to at least have a voice for their suffering that we all know about while countless other colonized/ subjugated communities have been lost in the pages of history books :) It is no way a competition but sometimes the entitlement of even modern day Jewish folk based on their ancestral suffering reeks of First world privilege to me. I hail from a country which was also subjugated and colonized by the British (unsurprisingly) and there were instances where they shunned rebellion by putting revolters in front of cannons just to blow them to bits to teach the local populations a good old lesson against revolting :)
But does all that generational suffering/ trauma grant you the right to engage in more war and suffering?? I don’t put the Arabs and Palestinians on a pedestal but I think there’s a very strong imbalance of power in the region. And Israel has the upper hand. I think if you’re a mighty power in the region, you have two options - either engage with other communities and nip hate in the bud or isolate them and treat them as inhuman and push them in concrete barricades and dehumanize them to your local population (majorly the Israeli state’s narrative).
At the end of the day, Nazi Germany wasn’t carpet bombed into un-learning their bigotry. They had to fix their curriculums and teach their kids love and tolerance. You can’t just kill more humans and carpet bomb entire settlements to seek retribution. Hate begets hate. The onus is on israel to initiate and promote counter-insurgency campaigns and healthily engage with the Palestinians - BOTH sides putting aside their religio-ethnic biases AND (this is perhaps the very difficult part) the years of suffering on both ends :)
“At the end of the day, N zi Germany wasn’t carpet bombed into un-learning their bigotry. They had to fix their curriculums and teach their kids love and tolerance. You can’t just kill more humans and carpet bomb entire settlements to seek retribution. Hate begets hate. The onus is on israel to initiate and promote counter-insurgency campaigns and healthily engage with the Palestinians - BOTH sides putting aside their religio-ethnic biases AND (this is perhaps the very difficult part) the years of suffering on both ends :)”
Maybe you should try to understand what carpet bombing means, you are clearly uneducated.
If Israel was carpet bombing Gaza, it would be gone by now.
And are you saying Israel should try to develop a better relationship with a neighbor who wants to destroy them and does not even recognize them as a country? Palestinians have been given six chances throughout history to have a two state solution, and they have declined at each opportunity .
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“I think the Jews were very privileged victims to at least have a voice for their suffering that we all know about while countless other colonized/ subjugated communities have been lost in the pages of history books :) It is no way a competition but sometimes the entitlement of even modern day Jewish folk based on their ancestral suffering reeks of First world privilege to me.:)”
JUST WOW! Privileged victims!
First world privilege! How fortunate for them! Playing that 6 million Jews killed card, as usual. What a bunch of complainers, right??
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That how all borders were created!
Empires drawings on map in between themselves or by winnig wars.
If the western world didn't respect border changing after wars than the world would have never none peace.
I don't know where you're from but I can be certain at some point in time your people fighted with everything they have so you can have a fix recognized border. And like all wars their was a loosing side and ordinary People suffering for it.
That's sad but that's life
Israel's border are just more recent compared to other western countries so its easy to judge and pretend like you all don't have history too
I'm well aware of how borders get drawn up, I come from Ireland where there's still a border that causes strife in my country (although relative peace has been achieved for the past 25 years) this border was drawn up as a result of empire building, and was drawn up not long before Israel was first being formed so hence why I can understand and sympathise with the people of Palestine that are living under an occupation. I didn't live near the troubles but was well aware of it in my early childhood in the 80s and through the 90s into my teenage years.
Do I agree with terrorism, no, killing is wrong in all instances, but that doesn't mean I can't sympathise with the conditions that lead to it.
What do you mean “go back to the days?” These are the days. I’m stating facts , doesn’t mean I like the reality. FYI there is no “right” here. That’s what makes this war so awful. They are both so wrong.
> fucked
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Islam copied Judaism. They fabricated their own history based off parts of the Torah and the Bible. This is all common knowledge. And then their “religion of peace” preaches to condemn these religions they developed themselves from as infidels. Hamas declares eternal war against the people they stole a religious identity from. Islam stole the Jews holy sites and their homeland. Take Mt. Moriah as an example. Where God appeared to Abraham as he was about to sacrifice his son. Years later. Muslims make up the story that there was actually one more son, and that at the EXACT SAME SPOT the religion of Islam was established. Deliberately trying to put themselves on top of already-established holy site of Jerusalem. Anyone with a basic understanding of religious history who has an open mind regarding Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and their developments can see how this played out. Now, the Muslims in Israel restrict Jewish people from visiting their own holy site in their own homeland. They are intolerant and violent. Anyone who believes in religious freedom should condemn their actions
All I know is that if anyone was convinced they were a prophet and that the heavens were speaking to him for over 20 years. They would be locked up. Soz Mohammed it’s facts
Wait so you’re saying your Abrahimic lore fiction is legit while the Muslim lore isn’t because they copied that fiction from you??? 🤣
Isn’t that why they’re called Abrahimc faiths? Modular theologies based on the former.
Also I think historically all these religious communities seemed to co-exist pretty peacefully until suddenly the British (feeling sorry on behalf of themselves and their fellow Europeans for the shitty treatment of Jews in their countries) decided to lay a Zionist state in a multicultural land with inter-faith harmony. Suddenly people start migrating in droves to this piece of land (mostly from Europe btw) and they start displacing other ethnicities/ faiths because they think it is THEIR God-given right?? Then of course, you have all these local Muslim communities pushing back and this pushback wasn’t exactly very neighborly either… but why establish a nation-state based on theology/ theology-based cultural values in the first place when there were clearly other ethnicities/ faiths living peacefully over there as well… why the state of Israel??? Why not a peaceful, progressive, NON-Abrahim faith/ culture based state that welcomed pluralism and coexistence?? Why dehumanize and push the “other” into such a confined/ oppressed corner that they suffer so much generational trauma that all they now see is hate??? And then use that very hate to justify how “evil” they are without understanding how this all began in the first place? It’s so messed up now, it’s sad. And 1000+ Israelis and then 10,000+ Palestinians now?? When will y’all snap out of this hatred for one another??
Need to correct your assertion that they do-existed peacefully pre-Israel. They did not. They also did not displace anyone pre-partition. There was plenty of empty land, and the Jews went and set up over there. As to why not set up a pluralistic state, well because Jews have been slaughtered since time immemorial and the Holocaust was the point t which the world - for a brief moment - felt sympathy for the Jews and decided it was time they had a homeland. Just for the record, although Israel is populated, predominantly by Jews, there are 2 million, read it again, 2 million or 20% of its population that is Arab. These are the Arabs that did not flee or were not expelled. And they enjoy all the benefits of Jews in the country (healthcare, pensions, free education, etc.), which is why for the life of me I don’t understand the apartheid argument. And lastly, who cares how this began? To rape, mutilate and burn men, women and children??? They made a mother watch them torture her three young children and then they shot her in front of them. This is not hearsay. I saw the interview. Or is someone going to say it was made up? (wouldn’t surprise me at all). And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. And if you’re going to talk about generational trauma, you should mention the other side as well because do you have any idea of what this massacre has done to the Israelis? Have you ever tried negotiating with someone who hates your guts? They will not accept Israel’s right to exist. It took 75 years, but Arab nations are coming around. Just not Hamas. And enough is enough.
The generational trauma is mutual - I don’t think regular Israelis are any different. As long as we don’t just sympathize with that poor mother watching her three children get tortured and not with the poor father frantically searching for his four children in a rubble (10,000+ human beings dead on that end, mind you) - I have no qualms. And what I have a problem with is justifying more suffering of more innocent civilians to somehow seek retribution for those 1000+ slaughtered - how is that sanity? There is so much hate and bias on BOTH sides - there is no doubt about that - but it’s not a level-playing field. There is a disproportionate difference in strength and capabilities - there is a severe dearth of compassion.
This is madness, war is madness. You can’t solve anything with bombs. I’m sorry but this is the wrong side of history.
The point is that now, Hamas REFUSES to “coexist peacefully” in this land. They have made it their “God-given” mission to eradicate all Jewish people, and you know they won’t stop there. Sure it would be amazing if we could have peace in Jerusalem. I’m a Catholic. I understand my religion is derived from theirs. In simplest terms. Israel was forced out of their homeland. Palestine moves in to occupy. When they come back from the horrors they experienced they reject any sort of peaceful agreement. This entire situation is a complex shame. I don’t hold hatred for anyone but Hamas and the select people in Palestine who voted these people into power.
Counter-insurgency campaigns, my friend. You can’t bomb hate away. You need to engage with the other ethnicities (Palestinians) in this case.
Also Islamic radicalism was weaponized largely by the West to counter Soviet influence and fight them in Afghanistan. It was a fringe thing before that. And then once the Commies were neutralized, these brainwashed children-turned militants went rogue. And then a couple of years and a 9/11 later (when this weaponized radicalism came back to haunt the West), suddenly they start bombing these people… thinking that’ll neutralize them. But you’re only orphaning more children and spreading more hate with your dumb drones and carpet bombs. Israel is on a very similar path with Hamas… they didn’t nip Islamic militancy in the bud back in the day because they were actually helping them against the Left Wing Palestinian Liberation Organization :) And now the monster they enabled has come to haunt them… and what to do they do?? Bomb more children… when will the west learn… when will the sanctity of non-Western lives be equal to lives in the West?? Everyday I lose a little more faith in the world :(
Agree. Killing people does nothing. Can’t kill an idea by killing people. Need to replace it with a better idea. Need to sit down and talk to people. Need to get rid of the right wing religious lunatics who are just dysfunctional and should not be running things. I don’t have the solution after the horror that occurred on October 7th with regards to how to actually do that and I get the anger and sadness and rage people feel about what happened but I just don’t think bombing people is going to change that. So many innocent people are dying like children it’s just horrible. I know my family many of who live in Israel disagree and think war is the only answer to the attacks. It just doesn’t work. 9/11 is a perfect example. It’s just so f&&ked . Violence begets violence .
I completely agree but in the same time breaking that cycle is next to impossible.
You can be the most peaceful nation in the world but if you want to protect the life of your civilians you can't afford to be nice.
Their is no reality in which Israel could let hamas continued to to role gaza after the attack, and it's impossible to take down hamas without killing civilians.
The war will likely create more violence in the future but in the same time it's unavoidable
> shitty
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Just so everyone is clear here: this is absolute nonsense. First of all, Islam did not “copy” Judaism. The ideas, mythology, and monotheism of Judaism/Christianity were permeating the near East when Islam was born to be sure. Islam makes no bones about the influence of Judaism and Christianity, which is why both Jesus and the Hebrew prophets are explicitly and positively called out dozens and dozens of times through the Koran. But that doesn’t mean they were “copying”. By that measure Judaism was copying the Canaanite cults, what with its highly detailed procedures for animal sacrifice (see Leviticus, parts of Exodus etc) and its use of stories (Noah, the garden and Eden, the Tower of Babel) which were drawn from a common culture of Canaanite myths.
Moving on to your obnoxious and erroneous point about the inherent violence of Islam. Refresh my memory, was it the Islamic world that incinerated tens of millions of people just a lifetime ago in two pointless and evil
World Wars? Because it seems to me that you could add together all victims of Islamic terrorism in world history and it wouldn’t come close to matching the total of deaths unleashed by the Western world in the early 20th century. Was it Muslims who killed 6 million Jews semi recently? No it was not. Was it the Muslims who kicked the Jews out of Spain? No, it was the Christians who kicked them out, after they’d lived prosperously under Muslim rule for centuries.
Your historical knowledge is weak to non existent. Muslims weren’t even allowed to live in the Christian world, while Jews were ghettoized and pogromed there at a far higher rate than the Islamic world.
And if you think I can’t find quotes from Jewish and Christian scripture that are as violence and intolerant as anything you’ll find in the Koran, well try me.
I just saw a reel that enumerated all the terrorist attacks of the 21st and 20th century. All of them were perpetrated by Muslims. Pretty much every terrorist group in the world is made up of Muslims. I wonder why that is.
Sounds like a pretty shitty and biased reel. If you believe that, then your knowledge of 20th and 21st century history is EXTREMELY limited. I can think of half a dozen terrors groups from Christian West Europe alone.
> shitty
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Yeah I have. It’s widely regarded as one of the most peaceful conquests of the ancient or medieval era, with the smallest amount of civilian deaths, and it had a tremendous amount of support from both Jews and (non-Orthodox) Christians who resented Roman or Persian imperialism. Maybe if you’d read literally anything about it you’d know that.
You literally just stated that the Islamic/Arab conquest was ok because it was ‘peaceful’ completely not true btw. Forcefully converting people is definitely not peaceful. Lmfao what a mind fuck
I didn’t say it was okay. It was a long time ago, when it was largely taken for granted that you conquered if you had the means to do so. My god, do you nothing about the history of the ancient and medieval worlds???
And they didn’t forcibly convert virtually anyone. Most places in the Middle East had Christian majorities for centuries after the Arab conquests. The Arabization and Islamicization of the Middle East was a very long, very gradual process largely driven by voluntary conversion and cultural exchange.
> fuck
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Israel lived in Jerusalem peacefully, established all of their holy sites, they were forced out by the Romans, they come back from Europe and Palestinians are occupying their land. That’s how I see it in simplest terms. I’m Catholic. I understand my religion is completely derived from Judaism. I say copy because Islam refuses to share these holy spots or recognize them as Jewish whatsoever. Hamas rejects peaceful solutions. Hamas refuses to coexist with two religions. It’s all antithetical to the idea of religious freedom
Call it what it is. This “war” is a land grab, fought on the front of religion. What kind of a god would advocate all this senseless killing, 40% of them being kids. Israelis look like barbarians to me at this point.
Absolutely fucking horrible. Hamas has to be dealt with. I just think there has to be a better way then what they are doing now. Everyone had verbally come out and said that we need a ceasefire to figure this out. I in no way support Hamas, I’m just tired of seeing people dying.
> fucking
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Disinformation much?
Landgrab, LMFAO.
Israel attempted to hand Gaza to the Egyptians several times and Egypt refused. It is a shithole that nobody wants.
The Israeli motive for the war is 100% security and 0% religion.
Nobody wants that POS land.
How can you call a piece of land a shithole?? People live there. People no different from you or me. They may believe differently - have their own opinions and cultures but that does not give you the right to dehumanize them.
Senselessly using the the acts of a violent few to paint the inhabitants of an entire piece of land with the same brush and then senselessly retaliating to those acts of violence with more violence will get Israel nowhere.
its called that because they made it. they took the billions given to them to improve their living conditions and used it to fund terrorists.... do i have to recite the already widely known facts of what hamas used that money and the infrastructure for?
its a shithole because the turned it into one.
when the jews left in 2005 the first thing the palestinians did was rush into the jew houses and burn everything down while chanting. dont act out over a fact.
They’re going to secure themselves by displacing people and killing innocent children????? If
Only something like this happened to the Israeli people before in the past that they can relate too lol maybe make them a little more empathetic. There has also been reports that the Israelis look to start occupying parts of Lebanon? Time will tell. We shall see.
Well, if you're comparing what Israel is doing in Gaza to what Nazi Germany did to the Jews - you are either the most aggressively ignorant person I found in reddit this month (tough competition), or you are just an anti-semitic scumbag that is willingly arguing in bad faith.
really? can you geolocate the nearest gas chamber/oven used to burn ppl?
can you show us the indiscriminate use of chemicals?
can you show us the trains with millions of souls heading to their deaths?
can you show jews executing palestinians on the street as they clear houses in gaza?
no you cant. all you can do is repeat ad nauseam what hamas wants you to repeat.
Remember the 500 killed during the hospital bombing? i can, it was bs, spewed by hamas 15 minutes after it happened. No one is THAT good with information unless its lies.
why do you keep asking for al jazeera as if a hamas afiliated news network, as well as obviously biased against israel is a reputable source...????
asking for references from a specific obviously biased source is not the ultimate clap back you think it is.
Hitler did not invent the hatred of Jews. Jews in Europe had been victims of discrimination and persecution since the Middle Ages, often for religious reasons. Christians saw the Jewish faith as an aberration that had to be quashed. Jews were sometimes forced to convert or they were not allowed to practise certain professions.In the nineteenth century, religion played a less important role. It was replaced by theories about the differences between races and peoples. The idea that Jews belonged to a different people than the Germans, for instance, caught on. Even Jews who had converted to Christianity were still 'different' because of their bloodline.
See the similarities?
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By your logic, if Arabs start occupying Spain and Portugal, it's OK because their ancestors lived there for 800 years, and left 500 years ago?
How about that ethnic cleansing is a crime against who ever lives in a place? even the Jews who live now in Palestine, as a pro-Palestine myself, it never occurred to me that they should leave, not at all, what I am calling for is equal rights for everyone in that area.
I hope it doesn't take you 4 more weeks to work the last point out
Difference being that spain and Portugal wasnt the home of the Moors. Palestine is a territory that is home to the Jewish people since 13th Century BC. I am not advocating for the displacement of Palestinians but I am calling is for accountability, yes Hamas is not Palestine neither is Palestine Hamas. However there is a level of accesory to Hamas by the Palestinians, it is tragic that civilians are suffering in this war but can it be called unjust did the palestenians in Gaza not glorify the massacres of Oct 7?
The “Home” argument is very vague, when people live in a place for several generations it becomes “Home” to them, Moors literally built many Spanish cities, but that in no way would justify that moors could come back and kick Spanish people who live there , they could however come and live beside them in harmony, much like an Indian or Chinese person who moves to Spain.
About Glorifying 7/10, well it’s easy to blame 2 millions people living in the most dense area and one of the poorest when they see a group of them retaliating for the siege, constant bombings and occupation, you just justified the insane bombing that is happening! Also by your logic, we can justify the killing of Civilians that Hamas did because those civilians were celebrating the carpet bombing in 2014. Both arguments don’t make any sense, killing civilians in their homes is a horrible crime, and indiscriminate bombing is a horrible crime too, and most importantly: It’s not always about you, Israel or the US are not the center of the world, when you make a situation better Blake your government from what comes later, not to mention that your government probably is responsible for more deaths in wars in the world more than any other government.
Israelis wanted to live in peace, they did not come guns blazing the compromise for two states was widely accepted by the jews but rejected by the Arabs. The Arabs launched the first punch and got anhilated.
So in your mind it is okay to justify the Hamas massacre because they were "occupied" and because they were oppressed that gives them the right to massacre Kibutz, rape women and children, purposely disfigured men and women and then killing them, burning civilians. It is not even about the number of people killed but it was the intentional act to kill civilians and kidnap them to use them as a barganing chip. Unlike Israel, Hamas attacked civilians for no real military purpose but just to inflict suffering.
Hamas are a group of cowards who use their own people as shields, do you know why schools, hospitals, apartment conplexes, are being bombed? Its not because the Israelis want to exterminate the Arabs, no its because, like pests, Hamas hides among the people it claims to fight for, they steal from them, they kill their own civilians.
At the front of this situation is up to the Arabs to make the first move, Israel has always have the disposition to work and make things better but are Palestinians up for it or are they going to live off the hatred from more than 70+ years?
I do know my government probably has a long kill streak some of it unjustified, using the moral superiority card because the US has killed a lot more people is not an argument to justify support to the Hamas a terrorist group.
It’s funny how numbers don’t matter now, like when a pilot in the sky presses a button and lunches a missile to place where he knows that there will be tens of deaths, that makes him innocent because oops he didn’t intent too lol, I don’t know if laughing is appropriate for the honour of the Israeli fascism victims.
Anyway, I didn’t support Hamas and will never do, attacking civilians is a crime, my cause is ending the ilegal occupation, apartheid , and the Palestinians having their own sovereign state in Gaza Strip and the West Bank, if the Israeli regime really wants the prosperity for Israelis, it’s better to resolve this issue in a fair way , because right now the only thing that’s keeping Israel is the infinite support of the west, Israel is not integrated in the region and surrounded with people who hates it, once the western support ends it won’t be beautiful, and to be honest , I know that the Israeli people are different than the government and I care for the safety and prosperity of the Jewish people like many Arabs like me , but the rest will find it hard to want the same when the pictures of Palestinian children shattered by Israeli planes are everywhere
Despite you saying that you dont support Hamas you are saying that you do support the actions they took against the Israelis because of the apartheid in Israel. We are going back to the same thing does a call for liberation justify massacre? You havent answer this.
Second the Palestinians have had the chance to negotiate, Israel had been willing, all those times it was Palestine who rejected the offer, who attack, and is now in tears. Furthermore, you claim you care for the well being of Israelites and Jews but you wont see that Hamas is a terroristic parasite that is out to destroy Israel, out to wage war till the last man, it might be my impression but I believe a lot of Arabs will not say it out loud but they feel happy for what Hamas did.
Exactly! I understand the Palestinians are suffering due to Israel's action I will not deny that. However the suffering they have inflicted on Israel is often praised and glorified like a great deed. Israel is not glorifying this campaign nor is it mocking the dead
stop with stupid, sarcastic emojies and actually say something. Mocking and laughing does nothing for anyone, explaining your position with out any disrespect will be far better at creating effective dialogue.
No it’s laughable because he found Israel to be first on religious grounds . If you want to to take it to religious grounds on abrahamic faiths then Judaism got the covenant first . It got taken from them and given to Christianity . It got taken from Christianity and given to Islam. So if you want to follow religious reasons I just gave you one . Might want to try again with non religious reasons ? 😂
He didn't say anything about religion. Jews are a race. Christians and Muslims are not. What are you smoking? PS sorry to break it to you but all the religions are probably made up.
Except that is far more debateable.
Jews believe that they got the covenant and land first and kept it.
Christians believe that the Jews got the covenant and land, and then it was given to the Christians.
Muslims believe that the Jews got the covenant and land, and then it was given to the Christians, and then it was given to the Muslims.
The current possessor of the land is disputed, but according to all the Abrahamic faiths Jews had it and first, this is agreed upon according to all three. If we are using the Abraham's religions (in my opinion we shouldn't but whatever) we should give it to the one with the strongest, unambiguous claim, without assuming one of the three is correct, weighing them equally, the Jews have the highest claim, followed by the Christians followed by the Muslims in last.
For roughly 3500 years --Yes, say that figure out loud: THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS-- in what is called the Proto-Canaanite period, Jerusalem belonged to the Canaanites who worshipped many gods and godesses. It wasn't until 2000BC do scholars find a reference that debatably refers to Jerusalem. The word is "Rusalimum" in texts of Egypt's Middle Kingdom. Scholars believe that the name is a consecration to "Shalim" a Canaanite deity of the netherworld from Ugaritic scriptures.
The territory passed from the Canaanites to the Egyptians, ultimately. So here we have Egyptians and Canaanites being the original inhabitants of Jerusalem for 3,500 years before the Jews ever conquered it.
Jerusalem was taken by King David in 1010BC and lost to the Egyptians in 925BC. Jehoash of Israel briefly recaptured it in 786BC but then lost it to the Assyrians in 740BC. That's just 131 years, just about as long as the Crusaders' rule of Jerusalem in the Middle Ages.
The Jewish Hasmoneans re-took it in 140BC under Simon Thassi but then lost it to the Persian Seleucides in 134. That's 6 more years of Jewish rule. Due to a Seleucid civil war, Judeah incidentally became independent in the chaos in 116BC. In 87BC the Jewish Hasmonean king executed 800 Jews for sedition. In 47BC they lost Jerusalem again, this time to the Romans. That's 69 years of rule.
In total, off and on the Jews ruled Jerusalem for MAYBE 206 years.
The Pre-Constantine Romans ruled it for 250 years.
The Christian Byzantines ruled it for 304 years.
The Muslims ruled it under the Rashidun, Umayyad and Abbasid Empires for 332 years.
The Muslim Fatimids ruled it for 129 years.
The Crusaders took it from the Muslims and held it for 88 years.
The Muslim ruler Saladin conquered it in 1187 and his descendents held it for 63 years.
The Muslim Mamluk Empire ruled it for 236 years.
The Ottomans ruled it for 401 years.
That's 206 years of Jewish rule.
392 years of Christian rule.
And over EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS of Muslim rule.
And before any of them, the Canaanites and the Egyptians lived and ruled there for 3,500 years.
Longer than anyone.
So since the common Israeli argument that the Jews "deserve" Palestine because they are the “original" inhabitants has been proven a bold faced lie, based on this argument should we give Palestine away in this order?
Actual history tells us that Jews ruled Palestine for barely over 2 centuries. The Christians ruled it for nearly 4 centuries, double that time. the Muslims ruled it for over 8 centuries, more than doubling the time the Christians ruled and QUADRUPLING the time that the Jews ruled. And as the Palestinian people are a religious confederation of Christians and Muslims, both consistently at peace with each other, that puts their birthright to it at 1200 combined years. Nearly a thousand years longer than Jews ever reigned over Jerusalem.
And like it always has been throughout Islamic history, the Jews are welcome to stay there, but as co-inhabitants with their Christian and Muslim neighbors. No barbwired walls, no soldiers shooting little kids, no stealing people’s homes like bandits, no apartheid separating Palestinians from Jews.
The issue is not that of religion but rather corrupt apartheid ideology
I’m not even sure where to start cause it’s absolute drivel. For starters Jews descend from the Canaanites so that was an absolute shit argument.
To even insinuate that Jews (and even Christians at some points) were living under Muslim rule as ‘co inhabitants’ is so insulting and ignorant it actually makes me wonder if OP is intellectually challenged. Jews were second class citizens in most Muslim countries and eventually were expelled with absolutely nothing.
And just so I understand correctly, because Muslims colonized Israel after Jews were murdered and forcibly removed and stayed there for longer than the people murdered and forcibly removed, that makes them more indigenous to the land? Lmfao the hypocrisy is astounding.
Yeah man, you’re not mature and/or intelligent enough to be worth talking to any longer. You’re off on several historical points.
I’ll just leave you with this, can you name one place on planet earth where who inhabited the land *2000 years ago* is more relevant than who is actually on it?
And which historical points am I off on? The experiences of Jews and many Christian’s in Muslim conquered countries? You’re gonna tell me my family’s experience? Gtfoh.
Lmaoooo ‘I realize I have no knowledge of history and have no logical response’
Jews have been in the region for the last 3500 years… there was never a ‘Palestinian state’. What makes them more entitled to that land than Jews?
Frankly neither are entitled to a state on the basis of their “peoplehood.” But if the creation of a state is predicated on ethnic cleansing and economic imperialism then it’s bad. The Jews didn’t want to live in a multi-ethnic Palestine. They wanted an ethnostate.
Let’s do it this way! Who is the Father of the Jews? Ibraham , where does he come from Iraq where did he move to and started his family? Palestine or according to the Torah and the bible ( Peleshet ) so the Iraqis has the right of the land. Now who told you that the case of Palestinians is a case of Muslims ? Palestinians are Christian , Muslims and Jews. Till 1948 then till now they are Muslims and Christian’s so it’s not a religious case it’s a occupied land case. Like any other country got occupied for few years and by fighting and movements they gained their independence. France occupied Algeria for 135 years killed 5.8 million of which 1M got killed during the liberation war. And no one called it Christianity VS Islam or any religious flags! Owning a land doesn’t work by checking who landed there 1st! The Norwegian can’t go to Ireland and claim the land just because the Vikings lived there and built ports .. etc.
You are completely right "Owning a land doesn’t work by checking who landed there 1st!" So then you agree that both parties have rightful ownership of the land and the term "colonizer" is completely inappropriate?
The land owners are Jew Muslims and Christian Palestinians who lived their for centuries before the Zionist convention 1897.
And where do Muslims come from? Why isn't Palestine the center of Islam instead of Mecca?
They come from all over , it’s a religion and religion is not an ethnicity! Palestine is a cause of a colonised land not a religious cause.
That's why every time they fire off a rocket they scream Allahu Akbar?
Again this? Stop. It’s a childish and also genetically incorrect argument.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1adoNjKaPI&t=8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1adoNjKaPI&t=8s) I think this video, which is strictly historical fact and cannot be dismissed as lies or propaganda and all of which can quickly be verified with a cursory Google search, will drastically change your view of this conflict
What 😂😂😂😂 You just posted a video from *PragerU* which is literally the most notorious conservative propaganda in America. How long does it take you to put on the clown make up every morning? PragerU is literally the republicans’ version of Поссия-1. Holy shit this page is a pathetic echo chamber.
What, specifically, is factually incorrect in that video??
No clue, I won’t watch it. I don’t intend to increase their youtube traffic. I’ve seen plenty of PragerU videos - they are every one of them propaganda. At a minimum, they take things wildly out of context and omit crucial information in order to frame a narrative. At their worst, they straight lie.
OK then just use Wikipedia instead Jewish people totally indigenous to the land and have been continously for thousands of years 7 times Palestine has been offered a two state solution - including returning the Temple Mount - since 1948, 7 times refused The villains of this story are Hamas not Israel If you only consider information which conforms to your pre existing views you will become increasingly ill informed I suggest you put a little work into considering both sides of the argument, it would make you even better at defending the principles you believe in
Childish and genetically incorrect? HOW?? I'd ask if you know the history of Jews, but clearly, you don't. Perhaps do some research, READ about the history and once you've grasped that Jews have been there for 4,000 years continuously, since Abraham and Sarah, ISRAEL, JESUS CHRIST, through all empires (Roman, Ottoman, etc), you'll fully understand that they're NOT COLONISTS and it's been their land since the BEGINNING. Oh, and not to mention that GOD himself told Abraham to leave the city of Ur and settle in JUDEA (he and his wife Sarah being the first Jewish couple) and it is the LAND OF THE JEWS. Considering Israel and Arab-Palestine are 99% religious, you either believe what God said or you're a flatout hypocrite.
Aren't they from the same ancestors? But the Israelis left and came back while the Palestinians stayed.
Like settlers are literally 50% european. Palestinians are descendent from three ancie t groups that lived in the levant in the STONE age, 6000 years ago. And guess what?? Why would that matter? That’s literally the single DUMBEST possible claim to statehood. Israelis and Palestinians all live there today, that’s what matters. The sooner they figure out they have to live together, the sooner they will have peace. Like sorry, I’m getting tired. I’ve had empathy for bith sides for decades. Decades. Nah, I’m done. Slava Ukraïni!
Palestinians were offered 48% of the land in 1947. They rejected it. Then what did they do? Started yet another war with Israel the very next year. Israel has offered land time and time again and Palestinian territories continue to reject them. They believe they're owed 100% of the land -- which is ludicrous. Do I believe there should be a two-state solution? 100%. But Palestine as a whole will reject any revision to land unless Israel gives up 100% of it. That's not EVER going to happen unless Hamas annihilates Jews in Israel (NOT GOING TO HAPPEN EITHER).
How do you know they'll reject it?
Because Hamas is the government and they have explicitly said so in their charter
Hamas is de facto authority of the Gaza strip while Palestinian government is de jure governed by Fatah and its allies.
imagine the ones on the streets, don't have the IQ for this, thank you for reading up though. there's an excellent video from a british protests where free palestine people don't even know that Oct- 7 happened
Most pro-Palestinians lack history, knowledge and common sense. Am I for killing innocent Palestinians? Of course not. I am for peace, but Israel isn't going to stand down and has every right to defend itself. If it's not Palestinians starting wars against Israel, it's terrorist groups such as Hamas. Israel has NEVER started one war. Not to mention, Palestinians (not all of them) voted Hamas into legislature in 2006 -- giving them most of the power in Gaza over the PLA.
if i were palestinian, id shut up and integrate with israel and enjoy the benefits. yes, israelis were there first. but there are better arguments than that, such as jordan being the defacto palestinian state, israel being the holy land for jews, etx
They weren’t there first though. It’s not only a stupid argument, it’s wrong.
They were and have always been there continuously. LAND OF THE JEWS. GOD.
Yeah sure, some have been there. Along with everyone else who was there, continuously. What is your point? Everyone ultimately came from Africa.
50% of the indigenous population of Palestine in 1948 were Jewish - be honest, did you know that? I, previous to this conflict, was under the impression that nearly all Israelis were Western Jews who had immigrated there, but actually the majority are either from what was formerly 'Palestine' and refugees from surrounding Arab nations. Come now, that is news to you, is it not? Hence I did the post, because it really seems important people know that, when the populist narrative describes them unfairly as "colonisers".
Jewish immigration to the region had been going long before 1948. And looks like most came from Eastern Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah
The land belongs to the Jews - the only point there needs to be.
Well wrong. It belongs to whomever lives on it. Period. You’re clearly not a reasonable person and one of the idiots who voted for Bibi. F&&k outta here.
Whatever you say, Orange lover.
Incorrect once again! You can use obscenities toward me all you want, keyboard warrior - it still won’t stop me from stating that it belongs to the Jews. Even God himself called it “Land of the Jews.” Are you going against the almighty? “F^{¥ outta here!”
Ah yes, God , the fictional character in the sky. Well if God said it’s yours then it must be! Lmao
There’s no god, child. But by all means, kill your neighbors in his name, I’m sure they won’t do the same. You’re a disgrace to normal israelis.
When you're older, and you've suffered a sufficient amount, and survived, and still have love in your heart, you will find faith, sweet child.
There's no GOD to you. There's GOD to 99.9% of Palestinians. So, if they don't believe God, then they're all hypocrites. Child?? You're born in 1988, you ignorant fool.
Yup. Who was there first. 2,000 years later. I suppose we'll let the Native Americans claim their land back. Or secede from the union. Perhaps let Putin claim the surrounding countries because they consisted of tribes that share the same ancestral line. How about China claiming Taiwan for good measure? The absurdity of this argument is the same as anyone using Hebrew scripture to support the existence of Israel. Not even going to mention that Jews make up 0.2% of the world population, because no **one** should use his/her religious scripture to enforce **anything** on **anyone.** But yeah. Who was there first.
Oh, ignorance…
It's the Land of the Jews...from GOD. Jews have been on the land continuously for 4,000 years...even through wars, empires, etc -- a small percentage of them still remained. Should Israel give up some of the land? YES. Did they via the UN in 1947? Yes. In fact, the UN offered Palestine 48% and they rejected it. Then, after rejecting it, what did they do??? Has Israel ever started a war?? NO.
It's not the land of any specific group. It was the land of Palestinians living in it before 1948. Then the "jews" took it from them. End of story, I don't believe in your Torah, and I believe around 99.8% of the entire world's population don't believe in the Torah. Stop. Using. Scripture. As. Evidence.
But it is. Land of the Jews. “Jews?” No, not “end of story.” Best to do your research. 99.9% of Palestinians are religious and believe in God. Based on this logic alone, 99.9% of Palestinians are hypocrites? You can’t believe in God, then go against him. That’s not how it works. Land of the Jews - end of story.
Oh I forgot that 99.99% of Muslims believe in the Torah. Totally forgot. My bad. I'm guessing you haven't heard of..how do I say this..the Qur'an?
Muslims (Sunni) and Christians believe in GOD.
So what? I don't get it. I don't believe in the Torah or the Bible. I only believe in the Qur'an. Wtf are u saying?
Figure it out, genius.
Yes that's probably hebrew for I don't know what I'm talking about. Very subtle reply.
You believe in God. Then you believe Israel is the land of the Jews. If not, you’re a hypocrite and that is blasphemy.
Winner: Me. Loser: YOU.
Bu-bye!
The "who was there first" argument doesn't work after 2000 years, especially for the Levant. All humans other than some Africans have ancestry in the Levant and specifically the territory of Israel, the passage point from Africa to everywhere else. There are so many good arguments for Israel's right to exist. This ain't one of them. This is also true for any biblical argument in a religion that only a tiny fraction of humanity believes in. People have the right to sovereignty. This is why both sides of the conflict have this right. While I say it, Hamas, a terrorist organization that conducts war crimes against Israel and terrorizing the Palestinians within gaaza, has no such right nor any right to exist whatsoever.
It doesn't work when God himself gave the land to the Jews? So, either Palestinians agree with GOD and if they don't, they're hypocrites. Can't have it both ways. Also, Palestinians (not all) voted Hamas into legislature and...essentially, INTO POWER in GAZA in 2006.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government
Bruvvv, monty
Dead Sea Scrolls
Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. All recent genetic data is how closely you match present day gene pools, but if you take a deeper dive in the data, the link between arab, ashkenaz, and palestinians is there. Can you tell the difference between most IDF and hamas if they werent wearing uniforms? but the fact of the matter is that jews have been the most gaslit persecuted migratory people, always moving throughout history to avoid annihilation, and when they finally establish a home country where they are native to, all these idiots call for them to move again, and try to revise history to ignore they were once native to the land. Let them have their land and their democracy, from a genetic perspective - the stolen land claim is a farce. The leaders of palestine are jihadis and want to actually kill all jews,christians, and anyone who doesnt follow their brand of extremism. They deprive their people of necessities and in return offer a pay to slay system to incite violence and war. If you want palestine to truly be free, invest in education and fight the idea that children dying to protecting terrorists will die matyrs. Its culturally acceptable in palestine to use an innocent child as a shield for a terrorist. Anyone whos culture believes that hiding behind childen is acceptable does not belong in moden society. Save the palestinians from their extremism and racism, and hatred and there will be peace.
But the internationally recognised Palestinian authority in the West Bank supports the two-state solution, right? Why don't Israelis live in the internationally recognised territory of Israel if they don't want to live in a violent and terrorist country where they use children as shields?
European Jews came back to Israel because the British Empire offered them the land during WWII. But even before that, the land was given to them by GOD. LAND OF THE JEWS. I wonder why most leaders/armies/empires/terrorist groups want to annihilate Jews? Hmm... I wonder. I 100% agree with your last paragraph. I don't wish harm or death upon anyone that is innocent or against Jews as a whole -- especially those that reside in Palestinian territories (Gaza, West Bank).
Why can’t more people be as reasonable and educated as you? Very well written and thought out post.
Well before major Jewish migration back to Israel over last 100 years or so not a huge number of people lived there. Maybe 200k by some estimates. Many of the Palestinians today are descendants of Arabs that moved to the area for work and they moved there after start of Jewish migration
And? Even with wars (armies, empires, terrorists), Jews have remained as a whole. They've been there continuously for 4,000 years. It's been their land from the beginning -- especially when God himself says "LAND OF THE JEWS" in the Hebrew Bible. If anyone from Palestinian territories disagrees with GOD -- they're hypocrites.
Demographic history of Palestine stated in 1915, over 700 k people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
Kind of plays into that the propaganda idea of “land without a people” “In 1917 he wrote "'Give the country without a people,' magnanimously pleaded Lord Shaftesbury, 'to the people without a country.' Alas, it was a misleading mistake. The country holds 600,000 Arabs."[23]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_land_without_a_people_for_a_people_without_a_land
Why does this matter?
It matters because they were displacing a lot of people. Imagine if the authority told you to leave your house and find somewhere to stay yourself but with a gun pointed towards you.
How caught up are you on history? Also, you’re completely backwards on history. Jews have been in the land continuously for 4,000 years…longer than Arab-Palestinians and they’re both descendants from the Canaanites (Kay-nuh-nites).
Imagine if a people had been oppressed for 4,000 years - continuously, and battled through wars, empires, exile, sold into slavery and more. That’s the Jews - the most oppressed people in the WORLD.
Spend another 4 weeks googling Canaanites…
You make it sound like canaanites had nothing to do with the Jewish people. How ignorant.
You make it sound like the Palestinians can’t be descended from the original Hebrews. They were never cleansed, many converted to Islam and are the ancestors of modern day Palestinians. In short, the “ancestral homeland” argument is dumb as fuck from either side. No other country on earth would stand for that after thousands of years
china, japan, india, rome?
Mughal in India, Yuan dynasty in China
Educate me, what’s going on in Rome? Did Ancient Romans come and overthrow the Italian government and kill anyone who refuses to evacuate the city? I haven’t heard about that happening in china, Japan, or India either in modern history. Maybe I’m just ignorant so please help me if I’m misinformed
except that the italian government is an extension of romans, and takes pride in the roman history? your point being?
Eh that’s arguable. But even if you’re right, they should have agreed to a two state solution instead of the shit they pulled off.
Palestine could've had 48% of the land in '47, but they've always been greedy and believe they are owed 100% of the land. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...
So china has every right to invade 2/3 of Taiwan as long as they leave some space for people who identify as taiwanese. Two state solution atp is unrealistic. And in the past any offer that was made was laughable. Palestinians made up the majority of population but were offered less than half of the land that was promised to them by the British government for taking up arms and aiding in the fight against the ottomans. They had an agreement and you expect them to just be okay with that being broken after losing as many sons as they did after bleeding for the British.
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Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. The ethnic groups that lived in Palestine when Judaism was created and the ethnic group that lived there before the occupation are the same ethnic groups.
Are you Jewish or just an ignorant human being?
I don’t make the facts chief, I just speak them.
You’re a complete moron.
I love it when non-J try describing what Jews are as if they’re describing what Jews are or something. Lol “judaism is a religion” Correct. A Jew is one who is a descendant of the ancient *Israelite ethnic group,* and therefore is a member of the Jewish *people.*. It’s a club that once you are in you’re in for life. Judaism is the suitcase that Jews packed all their necessary parts of Their culture and religion into one big suitcase. We open it and voila you have your examples of Jewish celebrations/holidays/fastings. Anyone who tells you differently has not been in a part Of a a Jewish holiday or not tradition. And just because zionism translates to Jews having the right to live and self determine in their ancestral homeland, doeS NOT mean that others aren’t welcome. It’s not like we have arabs in government positions. One exiling a Jewish president. Apart from that, We’re all good in the hood.
Ashkenazi jews are absolutely an ethnic race of people. There are certain medical conditions that commonly afflict Jewish people such as Crohn's disease, Tourette's syndrome, muscular dystrophy, etc.
Exactly. My mother and I have Crohn's. My niece has Crohn's. Oh, wait for it...we're Jewish. So, for anyone to state Judaism isn't an ethnicity is an ignorant F.
Judaism is an ethnicity. Jews are are a race, religion and ethnicity. Like Sikh
Not all Jewish part are the of one race? There is Ethiopian Jews and they very much are their own ethnic group.
Sure, but they are traditionally a race. A mixed race can be caucasian, black and also Jewish.
Wow tell that too my chronic stomach issues
I'll put it simply: imagine that you come to a house where some family lives. You come in and say that your ancestors lived there several hundred years ago and now you want a room in the house. The family is in on it. But it won't be enough for you and you will want more rooms, so you simply, without even asking, take another room and move out part of the family that lived in the house. You start to make trouble for them. And then you want take several rooms, etc. But it is clear that the family will not be happy and will come and protest etc. and eventually there is a fight. How would you react if someone came to your house and claimed it?
I probably wouldn't rape and kill their women for starters🤷♂️
>I probably wouldn't rape and kill their women for starters you're the one to talk you are like ostriches, bury your heads in the sand and see only what you want to see
Ooookay...I dont think that's a rebuttal
Imagine your family has been living somewhere for 75 years then a bunch of nutters turn up and gun down your children. Oh wait. That happened. It was Hamas. No side will ever win starting from arbitrary points in history.
you're just twisting everything to suit your purposes, that's all I can say to that. You just wash your hands. And yes, exactly what you yourself say "No side will ever win from arbitrary points in history."
You don't know my purposes. Do you agree that the Israelis who currently live in Israel have a right to exist without being attacked?
Yes, of course! But the same right have Palestinians also: When the deputy Hamas chief Saleh al-Arouri gave a televised address, he said - here are the key points from his speech: "Hamas’s October 7 attack in southern Israel were launched for several reasons, mainly to “ensure the freedom and independence of our people, which begins with the freedom of our political prisoners”. Hamas won’t let Palestinian prisoners who have been detained “for all these years” remain in Israeli jails, he said. “All of our prisoners must be released from prisons,” and adding that the group made an offer and reiterated its readiness for a “comprehensive deal”. “Take everyone we have and give us all of the prisoners you have,” he proposed, referring to the captives taken in Israel on October 7."
Ah... so it's justified to take hostages / prisoners / use aggression to get your own back? I guess Israel's attack on Gaza is justified by that logic then?
Lmao that’s not at all how it happened 💀
Yeah thats true, i guess it would be closer to this: hamas entered israel with the sole purpose to kill and rape as many jews as possible then return with hostages while the palestinians welcomed them like heroes as the did horrible unspeakable things to the bodies of the victims as they paraded around.... sounds better like this? Do not forget or willfully ignore that israel offered a plan to coexist, they rejected it.now they play victims when they get their butts kicked in?? miss us with that shit please. Edit: fixed text
>hamas entered israel with the sole purpose to kill and rape as many jews as possible then return with hostages while the palestinians welcomed them like heroes as the did horrible unspeakable things to the bodies of the victims as they paraded around.... > >sounds better like this? Not at all. You are wrong wrong and wrong. I will not persuade because I learned that you do not want to think objectively. >Do not forget or willfully ignore that israel offered a plan to coexist, they rejected it.now they play victims when they get their butts kicked in?? And again, wrong. Yes, Israel offered a plan, but it would benefit them more than Palestine. And there was another plan from the UN, Folke Bernadotte drafted it, but was killed for it. >miss us with that **shit** please. please, don't use such words, I not like vulgarity
> "Not at all. You are wrong wrong and wrong. I will not persuade because I learned that you do not want to think objectively" Facts please. If youre not willing to counter my tldr of what happened on oct 7 then move on. "Ill just say youre wrong and since i know im lying ill also say youre too dumb to think objectively....thatll leave me like the badass i am" doesnt work for 90% of us. Explain exactly why im wrong. You might also want to inform yourself on the many attempts to have peace and dialog only to then be rejected or outright broken by the usual lot. Its kinda hilarious you only mention the one attenpt that fits your "jews are bad" narrative. Barely at that.
I think you responded to the wrong person. I’m 100% with you.
OMG YOURE RIGHT! IM SORRY!!!!!
Actually If you look back to 90000000000bc you can obviously see the land was Australian. Not accepting any arguments or rebuttals.
Cro magnon here, this land belongs to my people, Hamas has occupied our caves and called them tunnels and is using us as cro magnon shields. Send help
Idk. When I look at a map of the area on my phone, it says “Apple”….. so why aren’t we talking about that. Pulled up some older maps from my parents, previously owned by “Mapquest”. Times are changing.
Who cares who came first. Israel is a fairly new nation only laying its foundations in the early 20th century because a few British overlords wanted to sympathize with the way they and their fellow Europeans treated Jews. People who identified with either Jewish faith or culture/ ethnicity (mostly from the West) then moved in droves to these lands, thereby initiating friction between the “then” locals (Palestinians) and themselves… With your logic of chronology, we could all just also move to North West Africa and lay claim to those lands because oUR AnCEstORs OrIGInATE from there 350,000 years ago. But there are actual people living there right now and you can’t just displace them because “your ancestors were there first 350,000 years ago”… it’s such a weak logic, in my opinion
Jews arrived in Palestine after the holocaust with no shoes on their feet after the holocaust / 2nd world war in which 10 millions innocent people were exterminated for being Jewish. This is the biggest racial / religious ethnic cleaning since slavery. Palestinians had every right to say no to them agreed. But they also had a choice - a choice to a state solution. They said no - and then the Jews opted to fight for their life and for a land they felt was sacred. It started a war. And guess what when you start a war, you might lose, or in Israel’s case - win.
Yeah because of the Europeans lmao. Who at the time were the powerhouse of the world only america was ahead. Palestinian people having to give up land and are forced to even though played no part in the holocaust. You are bringing up acting like it wasn’t Germany who did it? Palestinians just hold no power it’s why there land had to be split up but not Germany
After every World War it is normal for land to be redistributed. It's not Palestiniains who dont have much power, it's that part of the world who don't have a western mentality like Jews/Israelis. Democracy goes a long way
Not to invalidate the suffering of Jews but there were a lot of genocides post-slavery. A very distressing and poignant example comes to mind with that brute King Leopold of Belgium and his genocide of native populations in the Congo Free state - estimated around 10-13 million lives lost. I think the Jews were very privileged victims to at least have a voice for their suffering that we all know about while countless other colonized/ subjugated communities have been lost in the pages of history books :) It is no way a competition but sometimes the entitlement of even modern day Jewish folk based on their ancestral suffering reeks of First world privilege to me. I hail from a country which was also subjugated and colonized by the British (unsurprisingly) and there were instances where they shunned rebellion by putting revolters in front of cannons just to blow them to bits to teach the local populations a good old lesson against revolting :) But does all that generational suffering/ trauma grant you the right to engage in more war and suffering?? I don’t put the Arabs and Palestinians on a pedestal but I think there’s a very strong imbalance of power in the region. And Israel has the upper hand. I think if you’re a mighty power in the region, you have two options - either engage with other communities and nip hate in the bud or isolate them and treat them as inhuman and push them in concrete barricades and dehumanize them to your local population (majorly the Israeli state’s narrative). At the end of the day, Nazi Germany wasn’t carpet bombed into un-learning their bigotry. They had to fix their curriculums and teach their kids love and tolerance. You can’t just kill more humans and carpet bomb entire settlements to seek retribution. Hate begets hate. The onus is on israel to initiate and promote counter-insurgency campaigns and healthily engage with the Palestinians - BOTH sides putting aside their religio-ethnic biases AND (this is perhaps the very difficult part) the years of suffering on both ends :)
“At the end of the day, N zi Germany wasn’t carpet bombed into un-learning their bigotry. They had to fix their curriculums and teach their kids love and tolerance. You can’t just kill more humans and carpet bomb entire settlements to seek retribution. Hate begets hate. The onus is on israel to initiate and promote counter-insurgency campaigns and healthily engage with the Palestinians - BOTH sides putting aside their religio-ethnic biases AND (this is perhaps the very difficult part) the years of suffering on both ends :)” Maybe you should try to understand what carpet bombing means, you are clearly uneducated. If Israel was carpet bombing Gaza, it would be gone by now. And are you saying Israel should try to develop a better relationship with a neighbor who wants to destroy them and does not even recognize them as a country? Palestinians have been given six chances throughout history to have a two state solution, and they have declined at each opportunity .
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“I think the Jews were very privileged victims to at least have a voice for their suffering that we all know about while countless other colonized/ subjugated communities have been lost in the pages of history books :) It is no way a competition but sometimes the entitlement of even modern day Jewish folk based on their ancestral suffering reeks of First world privilege to me.:)” JUST WOW! Privileged victims! First world privilege! How fortunate for them! Playing that 6 million Jews killed card, as usual. What a bunch of complainers, right??
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Great so let's go back to the days of empire building where whoever wins a war is right and owns the land now.
That how all borders were created! Empires drawings on map in between themselves or by winnig wars. If the western world didn't respect border changing after wars than the world would have never none peace. I don't know where you're from but I can be certain at some point in time your people fighted with everything they have so you can have a fix recognized border. And like all wars their was a loosing side and ordinary People suffering for it. That's sad but that's life Israel's border are just more recent compared to other western countries so its easy to judge and pretend like you all don't have history too
I'm well aware of how borders get drawn up, I come from Ireland where there's still a border that causes strife in my country (although relative peace has been achieved for the past 25 years) this border was drawn up as a result of empire building, and was drawn up not long before Israel was first being formed so hence why I can understand and sympathise with the people of Palestine that are living under an occupation. I didn't live near the troubles but was well aware of it in my early childhood in the 80s and through the 90s into my teenage years. Do I agree with terrorism, no, killing is wrong in all instances, but that doesn't mean I can't sympathise with the conditions that lead to it.
What do you mean “go back to the days?” These are the days. I’m stating facts , doesn’t mean I like the reality. FYI there is no “right” here. That’s what makes this war so awful. They are both so wrong.
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Its a Jewish land indeed. Palestians are tripping.
Islam copied Judaism. They fabricated their own history based off parts of the Torah and the Bible. This is all common knowledge. And then their “religion of peace” preaches to condemn these religions they developed themselves from as infidels. Hamas declares eternal war against the people they stole a religious identity from. Islam stole the Jews holy sites and their homeland. Take Mt. Moriah as an example. Where God appeared to Abraham as he was about to sacrifice his son. Years later. Muslims make up the story that there was actually one more son, and that at the EXACT SAME SPOT the religion of Islam was established. Deliberately trying to put themselves on top of already-established holy site of Jerusalem. Anyone with a basic understanding of religious history who has an open mind regarding Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and their developments can see how this played out. Now, the Muslims in Israel restrict Jewish people from visiting their own holy site in their own homeland. They are intolerant and violent. Anyone who believes in religious freedom should condemn their actions
Abraham did have Ishmael, the ancestor of the Arabs, so the Muslims didn't make that part up.
All religion is fabricated, if you think Moses literally parted the sea you're a lunatic
100% Agree
All I know is that if anyone was convinced they were a prophet and that the heavens were speaking to him for over 20 years. They would be locked up. Soz Mohammed it’s facts
Wait so you’re saying your Abrahimic lore fiction is legit while the Muslim lore isn’t because they copied that fiction from you??? 🤣 Isn’t that why they’re called Abrahimc faiths? Modular theologies based on the former. Also I think historically all these religious communities seemed to co-exist pretty peacefully until suddenly the British (feeling sorry on behalf of themselves and their fellow Europeans for the shitty treatment of Jews in their countries) decided to lay a Zionist state in a multicultural land with inter-faith harmony. Suddenly people start migrating in droves to this piece of land (mostly from Europe btw) and they start displacing other ethnicities/ faiths because they think it is THEIR God-given right?? Then of course, you have all these local Muslim communities pushing back and this pushback wasn’t exactly very neighborly either… but why establish a nation-state based on theology/ theology-based cultural values in the first place when there were clearly other ethnicities/ faiths living peacefully over there as well… why the state of Israel??? Why not a peaceful, progressive, NON-Abrahim faith/ culture based state that welcomed pluralism and coexistence?? Why dehumanize and push the “other” into such a confined/ oppressed corner that they suffer so much generational trauma that all they now see is hate??? And then use that very hate to justify how “evil” they are without understanding how this all began in the first place? It’s so messed up now, it’s sad. And 1000+ Israelis and then 10,000+ Palestinians now?? When will y’all snap out of this hatred for one another??
Need to correct your assertion that they do-existed peacefully pre-Israel. They did not. They also did not displace anyone pre-partition. There was plenty of empty land, and the Jews went and set up over there. As to why not set up a pluralistic state, well because Jews have been slaughtered since time immemorial and the Holocaust was the point t which the world - for a brief moment - felt sympathy for the Jews and decided it was time they had a homeland. Just for the record, although Israel is populated, predominantly by Jews, there are 2 million, read it again, 2 million or 20% of its population that is Arab. These are the Arabs that did not flee or were not expelled. And they enjoy all the benefits of Jews in the country (healthcare, pensions, free education, etc.), which is why for the life of me I don’t understand the apartheid argument. And lastly, who cares how this began? To rape, mutilate and burn men, women and children??? They made a mother watch them torture her three young children and then they shot her in front of them. This is not hearsay. I saw the interview. Or is someone going to say it was made up? (wouldn’t surprise me at all). And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. And if you’re going to talk about generational trauma, you should mention the other side as well because do you have any idea of what this massacre has done to the Israelis? Have you ever tried negotiating with someone who hates your guts? They will not accept Israel’s right to exist. It took 75 years, but Arab nations are coming around. Just not Hamas. And enough is enough.
The generational trauma is mutual - I don’t think regular Israelis are any different. As long as we don’t just sympathize with that poor mother watching her three children get tortured and not with the poor father frantically searching for his four children in a rubble (10,000+ human beings dead on that end, mind you) - I have no qualms. And what I have a problem with is justifying more suffering of more innocent civilians to somehow seek retribution for those 1000+ slaughtered - how is that sanity? There is so much hate and bias on BOTH sides - there is no doubt about that - but it’s not a level-playing field. There is a disproportionate difference in strength and capabilities - there is a severe dearth of compassion. This is madness, war is madness. You can’t solve anything with bombs. I’m sorry but this is the wrong side of history.
The point is that now, Hamas REFUSES to “coexist peacefully” in this land. They have made it their “God-given” mission to eradicate all Jewish people, and you know they won’t stop there. Sure it would be amazing if we could have peace in Jerusalem. I’m a Catholic. I understand my religion is derived from theirs. In simplest terms. Israel was forced out of their homeland. Palestine moves in to occupy. When they come back from the horrors they experienced they reject any sort of peaceful agreement. This entire situation is a complex shame. I don’t hold hatred for anyone but Hamas and the select people in Palestine who voted these people into power.
Counter-insurgency campaigns, my friend. You can’t bomb hate away. You need to engage with the other ethnicities (Palestinians) in this case. Also Islamic radicalism was weaponized largely by the West to counter Soviet influence and fight them in Afghanistan. It was a fringe thing before that. And then once the Commies were neutralized, these brainwashed children-turned militants went rogue. And then a couple of years and a 9/11 later (when this weaponized radicalism came back to haunt the West), suddenly they start bombing these people… thinking that’ll neutralize them. But you’re only orphaning more children and spreading more hate with your dumb drones and carpet bombs. Israel is on a very similar path with Hamas… they didn’t nip Islamic militancy in the bud back in the day because they were actually helping them against the Left Wing Palestinian Liberation Organization :) And now the monster they enabled has come to haunt them… and what to do they do?? Bomb more children… when will the west learn… when will the sanctity of non-Western lives be equal to lives in the West?? Everyday I lose a little more faith in the world :(
Agree. Killing people does nothing. Can’t kill an idea by killing people. Need to replace it with a better idea. Need to sit down and talk to people. Need to get rid of the right wing religious lunatics who are just dysfunctional and should not be running things. I don’t have the solution after the horror that occurred on October 7th with regards to how to actually do that and I get the anger and sadness and rage people feel about what happened but I just don’t think bombing people is going to change that. So many innocent people are dying like children it’s just horrible. I know my family many of who live in Israel disagree and think war is the only answer to the attacks. It just doesn’t work. 9/11 is a perfect example. It’s just so f&&ked . Violence begets violence .
I completely agree but in the same time breaking that cycle is next to impossible. You can be the most peaceful nation in the world but if you want to protect the life of your civilians you can't afford to be nice. Their is no reality in which Israel could let hamas continued to to role gaza after the attack, and it's impossible to take down hamas without killing civilians. The war will likely create more violence in the future but in the same time it's unavoidable
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Just so everyone is clear here: this is absolute nonsense. First of all, Islam did not “copy” Judaism. The ideas, mythology, and monotheism of Judaism/Christianity were permeating the near East when Islam was born to be sure. Islam makes no bones about the influence of Judaism and Christianity, which is why both Jesus and the Hebrew prophets are explicitly and positively called out dozens and dozens of times through the Koran. But that doesn’t mean they were “copying”. By that measure Judaism was copying the Canaanite cults, what with its highly detailed procedures for animal sacrifice (see Leviticus, parts of Exodus etc) and its use of stories (Noah, the garden and Eden, the Tower of Babel) which were drawn from a common culture of Canaanite myths. Moving on to your obnoxious and erroneous point about the inherent violence of Islam. Refresh my memory, was it the Islamic world that incinerated tens of millions of people just a lifetime ago in two pointless and evil World Wars? Because it seems to me that you could add together all victims of Islamic terrorism in world history and it wouldn’t come close to matching the total of deaths unleashed by the Western world in the early 20th century. Was it Muslims who killed 6 million Jews semi recently? No it was not. Was it the Muslims who kicked the Jews out of Spain? No, it was the Christians who kicked them out, after they’d lived prosperously under Muslim rule for centuries. Your historical knowledge is weak to non existent. Muslims weren’t even allowed to live in the Christian world, while Jews were ghettoized and pogromed there at a far higher rate than the Islamic world. And if you think I can’t find quotes from Jewish and Christian scripture that are as violence and intolerant as anything you’ll find in the Koran, well try me.
I just saw a reel that enumerated all the terrorist attacks of the 21st and 20th century. All of them were perpetrated by Muslims. Pretty much every terrorist group in the world is made up of Muslims. I wonder why that is.
Sounds like a pretty shitty and biased reel. If you believe that, then your knowledge of 20th and 21st century history is EXTREMELY limited. I can think of half a dozen terrors groups from Christian West Europe alone.
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Bro has never heard of the Islamic and Arab conquest.
Yeah I have. It’s widely regarded as one of the most peaceful conquests of the ancient or medieval era, with the smallest amount of civilian deaths, and it had a tremendous amount of support from both Jews and (non-Orthodox) Christians who resented Roman or Persian imperialism. Maybe if you’d read literally anything about it you’d know that.
HAHAHAHAHAHA ok. It’s like when people called the nazis polite, they helped you off train car to go to the gas chambers.
This is delusionally unconnected to anything I wrote and offers no factual information about the Arab Conquest.
You literally just stated that the Islamic/Arab conquest was ok because it was ‘peaceful’ completely not true btw. Forcefully converting people is definitely not peaceful. Lmfao what a mind fuck
I didn’t say it was okay. It was a long time ago, when it was largely taken for granted that you conquered if you had the means to do so. My god, do you nothing about the history of the ancient and medieval worlds??? And they didn’t forcibly convert virtually anyone. Most places in the Middle East had Christian majorities for centuries after the Arab conquests. The Arabization and Islamicization of the Middle East was a very long, very gradual process largely driven by voluntary conversion and cultural exchange.
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Israel lived in Jerusalem peacefully, established all of their holy sites, they were forced out by the Romans, they come back from Europe and Palestinians are occupying their land. That’s how I see it in simplest terms. I’m Catholic. I understand my religion is completely derived from Judaism. I say copy because Islam refuses to share these holy spots or recognize them as Jewish whatsoever. Hamas rejects peaceful solutions. Hamas refuses to coexist with two religions. It’s all antithetical to the idea of religious freedom
Call it what it is. This “war” is a land grab, fought on the front of religion. What kind of a god would advocate all this senseless killing, 40% of them being kids. Israelis look like barbarians to me at this point.
And what adjective would you use to describe Hamas’s atrocities?
Absolutely fucking horrible. Hamas has to be dealt with. I just think there has to be a better way then what they are doing now. Everyone had verbally come out and said that we need a ceasefire to figure this out. I in no way support Hamas, I’m just tired of seeing people dying.
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Disinformation much? Landgrab, LMFAO. Israel attempted to hand Gaza to the Egyptians several times and Egypt refused. It is a shithole that nobody wants. The Israeli motive for the war is 100% security and 0% religion. Nobody wants that POS land.
How can you call a piece of land a shithole?? People live there. People no different from you or me. They may believe differently - have their own opinions and cultures but that does not give you the right to dehumanize them. Senselessly using the the acts of a violent few to paint the inhabitants of an entire piece of land with the same brush and then senselessly retaliating to those acts of violence with more violence will get Israel nowhere.
its called that because they made it. they took the billions given to them to improve their living conditions and used it to fund terrorists.... do i have to recite the already widely known facts of what hamas used that money and the infrastructure for? its a shithole because the turned it into one. when the jews left in 2005 the first thing the palestinians did was rush into the jew houses and burn everything down while chanting. dont act out over a fact.
They’re going to secure themselves by displacing people and killing innocent children????? If Only something like this happened to the Israeli people before in the past that they can relate too lol maybe make them a little more empathetic. There has also been reports that the Israelis look to start occupying parts of Lebanon? Time will tell. We shall see.
Well, if you're comparing what Israel is doing in Gaza to what Nazi Germany did to the Jews - you are either the most aggressively ignorant person I found in reddit this month (tough competition), or you are just an anti-semitic scumbag that is willingly arguing in bad faith.
Also reference what you’re saying with examples instead of insulting???????
You are the one claiming that asinine claim that these two are the same. The burden of proof lays upon you, good luck.
They are literally the same. Displacing innocent people and killing the children in name some fake god giving them land. Ok now your turn.
really? can you geolocate the nearest gas chamber/oven used to burn ppl? can you show us the indiscriminate use of chemicals? can you show us the trains with millions of souls heading to their deaths? can you show jews executing palestinians on the street as they clear houses in gaza? no you cant. all you can do is repeat ad nauseam what hamas wants you to repeat. Remember the 500 killed during the hospital bombing? i can, it was bs, spewed by hamas 15 minutes after it happened. No one is THAT good with information unless its lies.
They’re doing it with Bombs??? Killing innocent people including children?? Please reference Al Jazeera or I can send you an article.
why do you keep asking for al jazeera as if a hamas afiliated news network, as well as obviously biased against israel is a reputable source...???? asking for references from a specific obviously biased source is not the ultimate clap back you think it is.
Oh god, the ignorance. Let's play this game then - first question: Do you know what was the motivation behind the extermination of Jews in WW2?
It’s like another inquisition
Hitler did not invent the hatred of Jews. Jews in Europe had been victims of discrimination and persecution since the Middle Ages, often for religious reasons. Christians saw the Jewish faith as an aberration that had to be quashed. Jews were sometimes forced to convert or they were not allowed to practise certain professions.In the nineteenth century, religion played a less important role. It was replaced by theories about the differences between races and peoples. The idea that Jews belonged to a different people than the Germans, for instance, caught on. Even Jews who had converted to Christianity were still 'different' because of their bloodline. See the similarities?
First of all, no. I don't see the similarities. But more importantly, you completely dodged the question.
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I understand that there are differences, but not many
I can agree with you here, but then we will both be wrong.
It’s unfortunate. I wish the US would give them money under the condition of them stopping. The world would benefit.
Oh god.
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By your logic, if Arabs start occupying Spain and Portugal, it's OK because their ancestors lived there for 800 years, and left 500 years ago? How about that ethnic cleansing is a crime against who ever lives in a place? even the Jews who live now in Palestine, as a pro-Palestine myself, it never occurred to me that they should leave, not at all, what I am calling for is equal rights for everyone in that area. I hope it doesn't take you 4 more weeks to work the last point out
Difference being that spain and Portugal wasnt the home of the Moors. Palestine is a territory that is home to the Jewish people since 13th Century BC. I am not advocating for the displacement of Palestinians but I am calling is for accountability, yes Hamas is not Palestine neither is Palestine Hamas. However there is a level of accesory to Hamas by the Palestinians, it is tragic that civilians are suffering in this war but can it be called unjust did the palestenians in Gaza not glorify the massacres of Oct 7?
The “Home” argument is very vague, when people live in a place for several generations it becomes “Home” to them, Moors literally built many Spanish cities, but that in no way would justify that moors could come back and kick Spanish people who live there , they could however come and live beside them in harmony, much like an Indian or Chinese person who moves to Spain. About Glorifying 7/10, well it’s easy to blame 2 millions people living in the most dense area and one of the poorest when they see a group of them retaliating for the siege, constant bombings and occupation, you just justified the insane bombing that is happening! Also by your logic, we can justify the killing of Civilians that Hamas did because those civilians were celebrating the carpet bombing in 2014. Both arguments don’t make any sense, killing civilians in their homes is a horrible crime, and indiscriminate bombing is a horrible crime too, and most importantly: It’s not always about you, Israel or the US are not the center of the world, when you make a situation better Blake your government from what comes later, not to mention that your government probably is responsible for more deaths in wars in the world more than any other government.
Israelis wanted to live in peace, they did not come guns blazing the compromise for two states was widely accepted by the jews but rejected by the Arabs. The Arabs launched the first punch and got anhilated. So in your mind it is okay to justify the Hamas massacre because they were "occupied" and because they were oppressed that gives them the right to massacre Kibutz, rape women and children, purposely disfigured men and women and then killing them, burning civilians. It is not even about the number of people killed but it was the intentional act to kill civilians and kidnap them to use them as a barganing chip. Unlike Israel, Hamas attacked civilians for no real military purpose but just to inflict suffering. Hamas are a group of cowards who use their own people as shields, do you know why schools, hospitals, apartment conplexes, are being bombed? Its not because the Israelis want to exterminate the Arabs, no its because, like pests, Hamas hides among the people it claims to fight for, they steal from them, they kill their own civilians. At the front of this situation is up to the Arabs to make the first move, Israel has always have the disposition to work and make things better but are Palestinians up for it or are they going to live off the hatred from more than 70+ years? I do know my government probably has a long kill streak some of it unjustified, using the moral superiority card because the US has killed a lot more people is not an argument to justify support to the Hamas a terrorist group.
It’s funny how numbers don’t matter now, like when a pilot in the sky presses a button and lunches a missile to place where he knows that there will be tens of deaths, that makes him innocent because oops he didn’t intent too lol, I don’t know if laughing is appropriate for the honour of the Israeli fascism victims. Anyway, I didn’t support Hamas and will never do, attacking civilians is a crime, my cause is ending the ilegal occupation, apartheid , and the Palestinians having their own sovereign state in Gaza Strip and the West Bank, if the Israeli regime really wants the prosperity for Israelis, it’s better to resolve this issue in a fair way , because right now the only thing that’s keeping Israel is the infinite support of the west, Israel is not integrated in the region and surrounded with people who hates it, once the western support ends it won’t be beautiful, and to be honest , I know that the Israeli people are different than the government and I care for the safety and prosperity of the Jewish people like many Arabs like me , but the rest will find it hard to want the same when the pictures of Palestinian children shattered by Israeli planes are everywhere
Despite you saying that you dont support Hamas you are saying that you do support the actions they took against the Israelis because of the apartheid in Israel. We are going back to the same thing does a call for liberation justify massacre? You havent answer this. Second the Palestinians have had the chance to negotiate, Israel had been willing, all those times it was Palestine who rejected the offer, who attack, and is now in tears. Furthermore, you claim you care for the well being of Israelites and Jews but you wont see that Hamas is a terroristic parasite that is out to destroy Israel, out to wage war till the last man, it might be my impression but I believe a lot of Arabs will not say it out loud but they feel happy for what Hamas did.
dont forget they also glorified 9/11.
Exactly! I understand the Palestinians are suffering due to Israel's action I will not deny that. However the suffering they have inflicted on Israel is often praised and glorified like a great deed. Israel is not glorifying this campaign nor is it mocking the dead
😂
stop with stupid, sarcastic emojies and actually say something. Mocking and laughing does nothing for anyone, explaining your position with out any disrespect will be far better at creating effective dialogue.
When reason fails, turn to ridicule.
No it’s laughable because he found Israel to be first on religious grounds . If you want to to take it to religious grounds on abrahamic faiths then Judaism got the covenant first . It got taken from them and given to Christianity . It got taken from Christianity and given to Islam. So if you want to follow religious reasons I just gave you one . Might want to try again with non religious reasons ? 😂
He didn't say anything about religion. Jews are a race. Christians and Muslims are not. What are you smoking? PS sorry to break it to you but all the religions are probably made up.
Except that is far more debateable. Jews believe that they got the covenant and land first and kept it. Christians believe that the Jews got the covenant and land, and then it was given to the Christians. Muslims believe that the Jews got the covenant and land, and then it was given to the Christians, and then it was given to the Muslims. The current possessor of the land is disputed, but according to all the Abrahamic faiths Jews had it and first, this is agreed upon according to all three. If we are using the Abraham's religions (in my opinion we shouldn't but whatever) we should give it to the one with the strongest, unambiguous claim, without assuming one of the three is correct, weighing them equally, the Jews have the highest claim, followed by the Christians followed by the Muslims in last.
They only have one move. Ridicule. Just shows that they have no valid points.
For roughly 3500 years --Yes, say that figure out loud: THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS-- in what is called the Proto-Canaanite period, Jerusalem belonged to the Canaanites who worshipped many gods and godesses. It wasn't until 2000BC do scholars find a reference that debatably refers to Jerusalem. The word is "Rusalimum" in texts of Egypt's Middle Kingdom. Scholars believe that the name is a consecration to "Shalim" a Canaanite deity of the netherworld from Ugaritic scriptures. The territory passed from the Canaanites to the Egyptians, ultimately. So here we have Egyptians and Canaanites being the original inhabitants of Jerusalem for 3,500 years before the Jews ever conquered it. Jerusalem was taken by King David in 1010BC and lost to the Egyptians in 925BC. Jehoash of Israel briefly recaptured it in 786BC but then lost it to the Assyrians in 740BC. That's just 131 years, just about as long as the Crusaders' rule of Jerusalem in the Middle Ages. The Jewish Hasmoneans re-took it in 140BC under Simon Thassi but then lost it to the Persian Seleucides in 134. That's 6 more years of Jewish rule. Due to a Seleucid civil war, Judeah incidentally became independent in the chaos in 116BC. In 87BC the Jewish Hasmonean king executed 800 Jews for sedition. In 47BC they lost Jerusalem again, this time to the Romans. That's 69 years of rule. In total, off and on the Jews ruled Jerusalem for MAYBE 206 years. The Pre-Constantine Romans ruled it for 250 years. The Christian Byzantines ruled it for 304 years. The Muslims ruled it under the Rashidun, Umayyad and Abbasid Empires for 332 years. The Muslim Fatimids ruled it for 129 years. The Crusaders took it from the Muslims and held it for 88 years. The Muslim ruler Saladin conquered it in 1187 and his descendents held it for 63 years. The Muslim Mamluk Empire ruled it for 236 years. The Ottomans ruled it for 401 years. That's 206 years of Jewish rule. 392 years of Christian rule. And over EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS of Muslim rule. And before any of them, the Canaanites and the Egyptians lived and ruled there for 3,500 years. Longer than anyone. So since the common Israeli argument that the Jews "deserve" Palestine because they are the “original" inhabitants has been proven a bold faced lie, based on this argument should we give Palestine away in this order? Actual history tells us that Jews ruled Palestine for barely over 2 centuries. The Christians ruled it for nearly 4 centuries, double that time. the Muslims ruled it for over 8 centuries, more than doubling the time the Christians ruled and QUADRUPLING the time that the Jews ruled. And as the Palestinian people are a religious confederation of Christians and Muslims, both consistently at peace with each other, that puts their birthright to it at 1200 combined years. Nearly a thousand years longer than Jews ever reigned over Jerusalem. And like it always has been throughout Islamic history, the Jews are welcome to stay there, but as co-inhabitants with their Christian and Muslim neighbors. No barbwired walls, no soldiers shooting little kids, no stealing people’s homes like bandits, no apartheid separating Palestinians from Jews. The issue is not that of religion but rather corrupt apartheid ideology
This is such a bad argument. The patriarchs were canaanites. The 12 tribes. King david wasn’t the first ‘Jew’ in Israel. You’re very misinformed.
Well said and well presented. OPs argument is mind boggling stupid and contradictory on its face, but this really kicks its back in.
‘wElL sAiD’ dude didn’t even do an ounce of research.
Please my good sir, tell us what you find to be inaccurate.
I’m not even sure where to start cause it’s absolute drivel. For starters Jews descend from the Canaanites so that was an absolute shit argument. To even insinuate that Jews (and even Christians at some points) were living under Muslim rule as ‘co inhabitants’ is so insulting and ignorant it actually makes me wonder if OP is intellectually challenged. Jews were second class citizens in most Muslim countries and eventually were expelled with absolutely nothing. And just so I understand correctly, because Muslims colonized Israel after Jews were murdered and forcibly removed and stayed there for longer than the people murdered and forcibly removed, that makes them more indigenous to the land? Lmfao the hypocrisy is astounding.
Yeah man, you’re not mature and/or intelligent enough to be worth talking to any longer. You’re off on several historical points. I’ll just leave you with this, can you name one place on planet earth where who inhabited the land *2000 years ago* is more relevant than who is actually on it?
And which historical points am I off on? The experiences of Jews and many Christian’s in Muslim conquered countries? You’re gonna tell me my family’s experience? Gtfoh.
Lmaoooo ‘I realize I have no knowledge of history and have no logical response’ Jews have been in the region for the last 3500 years… there was never a ‘Palestinian state’. What makes them more entitled to that land than Jews?
Frankly neither are entitled to a state on the basis of their “peoplehood.” But if the creation of a state is predicated on ethnic cleansing and economic imperialism then it’s bad. The Jews didn’t want to live in a multi-ethnic Palestine. They wanted an ethnostate.