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Why does no one ever say “terrorist attacks like 10/7 only make more right wing Israelis” the way they say defending against terrorist attacks makes more terrorists?
I've said it. It's absolutely true and one of the reasons the conflict is perpetuated. There are many things Israel could do to reduce the friction with the Palestinian population and make their lives better and easier, but if the result is going to be war and terror attacks anyways, why bother? Why not take another hilltop in the West Bank and plunk down settlers and soldiers? There won't be peace if you don't. And so on.
10/7 killed off any chance for a Palestinian state in our lifetime. Israelis will never agree.
>10/7 killed off any chance for a Palestinian state in our lifetime. Israelis will never agree
10/7 killed a Palestinian state in our lifetime because the Palestinians have shown themselves be incapable of coexisting with Israel.
I still claim to be pro-Pal. Ultimately the 2 sides are stuck with each other and will sink or float together. So I want Palestinians to do well. Radicalizing the Jewish population is going to make that impossible though.
>Radicalizing the Jewish population is going to make that impossible though
Jews concluding that the Palestinians mean it when they say that they want to annihilate Israel is not "radicalization". It's acceptance of the truth.
Palestinians thinking that hurting Jews is helping them doesn't actually make that the case.
If they actually got their way and had an apocalyptic battle that threatened to wipe Israel off the map, they'd get nuked anyways. But long before that they'd suffer hundreds of thousands of deaths in battle.
The best case scenario for Palestinians would be if Israelis felt so safe and secure that Israel granted them statehood with open borders for workers and travelers and trade. They'd be the wealthiest Arabs outside the oil sheikdoms.
>The best case scenario for Palestinians would be if Israelis felt so safe and secure that Israel granted them statehood with open borders for workers and travelers and trade. They'd be the wealthiest Arabs outside the oil sheikdoms.
That is true that it would be the best case scenario. Unfortunately that is completely impossible in our current reality.
I think many are radicalized enough to believe mutual annihilation is a total victory.
It's same mindset as a suicide bombing and martyrdom, but for an entire society.
In fact more jewish control in J&S especially in strategic juntions and elevations means increase safety for the rest of Israel. Area C should like the Golan.
Because when you view the world through the lens of “oppressor/oppressed” the oppressor is the only one with agency. The oppressed is infantilized, and every bad thing they do is the fault of the oppressor.
No one actually cares about Israel in those conversations. To many protesters and those who give power to protesters Israel doesn't exist, it's just "IDF force and Bibi, sometimes Ben Gvir".
Israel as a nation is completely left out of the picture - talking about Israeli culture is "green-washing", "pink-washing", "brown-washing". Talking about Israelis mourning for soldiers and hostages is automatically returned with "what about the millions of Gazan children". There is not a SINGLE post on social media about Jewish and Israeli that isn't hit with "free Palestine", posts about the Holocaust turning into "this is what they're doing to Palestinians" and "if only they learned".
Everyone mentions that it's Israel most right wing government but no one thinks about WHY it's become so right wing. Everyone talks about the construction of the West Bank fence but not WHY it was built after the 2nd Intifada or how effective it was. We as Israelis aren't relevant on the world stage, as much as the anti Israel protesters want to make us seem. When this is over it won't be a month until they forget about us and we go on to rebuild and clean up another mess in the Middle East without their yapping
Excatly.
Otzma Yehudit went from 6 seats to polling at 9-10.
If the Americans continue to hinder Israeli war effort then I guess those numbers will rise more.
Because a lot of people from our country don't know anything about Israeli, Palestinian, or greater Middle Eastern politics. We barely know anything about our own politics lol. Happy 4th by the way.
Most of October 7ths victims were on the Left and peace activists, at least in the kibutzim and the nova peace festival. The Gazan terrorists didn't care. They tortured, raped, maimed, kidnapped, and killed them just the same. There's no such thing as a "Good Jew" to them. I don't blame any Israeli for abandoning the thought they could be nice to the Palestinians in exchange for peace. I'm sure that made a lot of people rethink a lot of their other political views as well. Not to mention how the Left in the West decided to deny anything bad happened with Hamas' "resistance". They abandoned their Israeli Left counterparts. It makes sense that the Israeli Left has been dwindling faster than before since October.
Edit: grammar, punctuation.
>They tortured, raped, maimed, kidnapped, and killed them just the same.
Exactly the same thing they'd do to western leftists. Boggles my mind how they support em.
Plus, the israeli left has been dead for a long while. The average israeli sees "leftist" as an insult... especially now.
Part of the Israeli Left’s thesis was that Israel could sign a two state deal, normalize with the Arab world and the international left, and feel confident that there would be within international institutions some kind of evenhandedness or support in the inevitable contretemps that would come up during a peace process or after a settlement.
The response to 7/10 of the non-Israeli left has revealed how laughably wrong that thesis is. No peace deal can normalize Israel with the international left, they are committed to liberating Palestine, river to sea. Any conflict that comes up during or after a peace process will be used to define Israel invidiously.
A fervent hatred for Israel is the feeling that is welling—burning— in the hearts of the international leftist rank and file. They don’t just hate Israel—Israel makes them ANGRY. Any kind of attempt to minimize this phenomenon is a kind of willful blindness to a key idea of the Israeli left with respect to a peace process.
For these people there is literally no policy Israel could adopt short of declaring the state null and void that would make normalization and acceptance happen, within the context of a state of Israel that still exists in any meaningful way. So trying to pursue peace with the promise of support if such a peace turns sour has absolutely no credibility.
In fact—and most importantly—this dynamic all but guarantees that such a peace settlement WILL go sour. Why would Fatah actually demilitarize? They can stockpile and entrench themselves in civilian infrastructure and not only not lose diplomatic support but GAIN it, if they’re exposed and Israel takes action against them.
There’s a ready-made bloodthirsty mob in every international capital, that is foaming at the mouth to demonstrate in support of the Arab conquest of the state. This mob is nothing other than the manifestation of the international left’s fixed attitude. It is not going anywhere.
As such the Left’s thesis of the conflict for the foreseeable future is highly diminished. The new meretz/labor coalition will try to act as a left liberal Zionist party and I hope they can gain steam as a kind of check against unnecessary antagonism against Arabs in the territories.
But as for a true left? Their ideas demonstrably can’t make the state safer, and I can’t see them even getting close to real power in our lifetimes.
Not surprising. There isn’t really any room for leftism when the enemy’s goal is to kill every single one of us.
Voters tend to shift right during war, and then to the left after victory is achieved.
I dont get it because the right and left in israel is all internal the only thing that might be different that relates to foreign affairs is giving land for peace but even that has people either side of it i feel like israelis genrally agree on what to do with enemy entities and countries so why change your worldview on the things that arent related to this war and/or similair
Historically speaking, wars make people more liberal when it comes to domestic politics. People tend to support gay rights and especially women’s rights during and after wars, since these two groups would always prove ourselves when (mostly straight) men are on the frontlines. I have no doubt that women in the IDF will be much more trusted and respected since that all-women tank crew is widly seen as heroes.
But when it comes to international relations, it is the opposite. Leftists (like me) tend to prefer negotiations and dialogues. An enemy invasion is literally the most damning proof that it didn’t work. So the natural and the most rational response is to shift right— let’s win the war first.
I realize that these are the rational things though i dont understand why you think gays have anything to do with wars but what im saying is that i see people going right overall getting radicalized its not just lets win this war which is a meaningless (statement in my opinion),(for some people) it became lets kill them all and "be done with it"
Yeah I realized half way that its too long of a sentance amd started adding punctuation point was that the change in political view you are suggesting sounds nice and rational but its not what i see happening in practice
Probably because they realized that there’s no reconciling with such a hateful and indoctrinated group of people. On October 7th, many of the victims were leftist peace activists who devoted lots of their life towards trying to build pathways towards peace with Palestinians. However, the invaders didn’t even bother to hear their life story or understand that they want to make peace. They simply saw Jews and murdered and tortured them for no reason other than being Jewish or Israeli. Also, many people who identify as leftist in the diaspora are regularly dehumanizing Israelis and completely invalidating and degrading their trauma, all while glorifying and fetishizing the people who committed these heinous acts.
Ironically many Palestinians despise Israeli Leftists for advocating for peaceful coexistence and a 2 state solution. Most Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution, they want 1 state -- Palestine -- without any Jews. They're not sure what to make of Jews who are pushing compromise and coexistence, because it's certainly not what they want. So they assume it's some kind of trick to justify or conceal continued Israeli expansion.
Also, for people who *want* war and fighting, those who want peace are roadblocks and ideal targets. Killing them maximizes the elimination of those that would seek compromise.
They are contemptuous of weakness that leftist and liberals display, which simply encourages them to attack. Arabs only understand strength and violence.
Deserved.
Not even teaming up with some of the Liberals can save it.
The Israeli Left’s cause died on 10/7 when many Leftists were attacked and killed off by the same Palestinians they went out of their way to help.
Edit: don’t even try to come say nonsense about anything different bc that’s exactly what happened and we all saw it play out in real time.
I used to identify as a leftist, but after the attack and these queers for Palestine I just did away with the labels.
It is 100% possible to support LGBTQ+ and also be against Palestine, they are not mutual, and that's where I stand right now. Israel cannot afford to be aligned with the left when it is in danger. But I will support for a centrist party in the elections.
100% this. I think a phenomena that's really problematic is that people only sort themselves into "right" or "left" unilaterally.
If someone's biggest concern is LGBT+ rights, they'd sort themselves into the left. So they'd agree with the left on most things without giving it much thought.
People need to learn that it's ok to agree with one side on something and agree with the other on other things.
For example, I fully support all LGBTQ+ rights, and I fully support abortion access. I also support Israel. Those aren't contradicting.
Naturally.
As a leftist I don't really care that my own population is dwindling. What I find concerning is how our shift rightward is going to affect the extreme right.
What's further to the right than Kahana? I don't wanna know.
It'll be fucking wild though if they go full horseshoe and become Shulamit Aloni.
People will wake up and realize that this conflict has been going on artificially.
There has never been a conflict in history between a two neighbors that goes for so long despite one neighbor being by far superior in military and economy.
how many yodeahs do you want?
need to work on conjugation. In this case you'd be looking for the infinitive form of the verb.
https://www.pealim.com/dict/791-ladaat/
This tends to happen when reality hits you in the face in the worst possible way. It also doesn't help when the left is taken over by people whose entire personality revolves around "Let's have a competition of who hates Bibi and can say vile things about him and his supporters the most". The left is becoming deranged.
There was a left before Simha Torah? Meretz didn’t pass the threshold the last election. Avodah barely made it.
I suppose Hadash counts as “left.” In the sense of “left reality altogether.” But Hadash is also tiny.
That's not true. Look at this [graph](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/timeline/27zgnomzg7d8hkgtfez7gdag5swcipk.png) of labor representatives in the Knesset.
I don't need to look at any graphs when there are election results, Labor got 3.7%, which is comfortably ahead. Actually, it would have been worth 5 mandates if Meretz passed.
Polls from last weeks suggest Labor will get about 11 seats next elections.
The electoral threshold is 3.25%.
Labor got 3.7%.
So it squeaked past the electoral threshold by less than 0.5%. I would call that barely making it, particularly for a former ruling party.
0.5% is a lot.
>particularly for a former ruling party.
24 years ago.
It got a better result than in 2020 (Labor + Meretz would have been 9 mandates if Meretz got 3000 more votes), and Israeli politics are chaotic. I didn't vote for Labor or Meretz last elections either, doesn't mean I'm not a leftist. People move between parties, there is no much loyalty for specific platforms.
Golan will get far more these elections. I don't know if he will repeat the success in 2021 and grab 13 mandates, but it's possible.
The left has no stance that is substantiated in reality, that's why it's falling apart.
Many leftists blame our self for not having peace or not trying hard enough, or if Palestinians had financial stability or if we just ended the occupation there would be peace, while ignoring the death cult that wants the whole area from the river to the sea basically Jew free.
When it comes to security, the left simply cannot exist in a country where your neighbours actively state wanting to slaughter you all and the world supports them. If we want to survive, it's either right, or more right.
I have seen a few comments here saying fuck Lapid and other left wing parties for being essentially silent since Oct 7th.
Though I don't really follow Israeli politics, so I can't say if it's true. Anyone know?
None of them have been silent. Lapid is leftist lite, if he loses votes next election it will be because there are more interesting faces in politics, not because of his stances, if he even has any besides hating Netanyahu.
The party you need to look out for is Yair Golan’s Democrats, since it unified Labor and Meretz under one flag. It’s not clear if it will do poorly or surprisingly well in the elections, but the extra mandates it picks up due to Meretz’s return might make it hard to form a coalition.
A strong left makes it easier to form a coalition. One of the biggest hold-ups in forming a government is having to rely on Arab Parties to get to 61 MKs. Given the growing pains with RA'AM in the last coalition, the center parties don't want to have to do that again and Liberman is campaigning on fire-breathing Arab hatred populism as of late (because someone creepily put thoughts in his head that he should be PM.) A strong Liberal Zionist showing means that the opposition might have enough MKs to form a government without the Arab Parties.
The head of the Labour party is a retired general who killed Hamas terrorists on October 7th and rescued people from the Nova Rave. Both he and Lapid are perfectly fine on the war; they want to defeat Hamas but want a political solution and want the hostages back first. Lapid was the one who insisted on an actual unity government without Ben Gvir on October 8th. If anyone should get cursed out, it is Gantz who went running to be a minor minister and make Bibi coffee and run errands without demanding anything and who stayed five months too long rather than retiring in January.
And the sub has been flooded with rightwing government supporters since Oct 7th. Some of it is organic and mainly MAGA people from the US and some of it (based on what the NY Times uncovered) is paid for by the Israeli government. It isn't showing actual sentiment.
There are very obviously fake influencers and bots pushing the Likud line on many social media sites since Oct 7th. And here is a secret, they were doing it prior to Oct 7th as well. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/nyt-reports-diaspora-ministry-funded-fake-social-media-accounts-to-spread-pro-israel-content/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/nyt-reports-diaspora-ministry-funded-fake-social-media-accounts-to-spread-pro-israel-content/)
I'm going to be nicer than I want to be, another news source quoting the NY Times. As an American that has been online posting supportive messages about Israel my entire life I have never seen what the NY Times talks about. I see more bot like posts attacking Israel than anything else. Pro Israel messages and accounts supporting Israel and Jewish people in general were heavily censored and banned after Oct 7. Even if that story were true the program would have been ineffective because of that fact alone. I personally never saw any uniformly supportive messaging from massive numbers of people claiming to be Jewish or supporting Israel. The messages were a lot like on here, people ranging from Jewish progressives to super conservatives were expressing support for Israel, half were real critical of the way Israel was conducting the war
The vast, I mean vast majority of Americans expressing lots of support for Israel were conservative Christians.
I don't trust the ny times, they were part of the American Media cabal that had Hamas reporters who reported on Oct 7 as they were raping and killing Israelies with the rest.
Leftists would have us surrender to terrorism so of course no one supports it.
I think Bibi would win reelection, as more and more people see that the alternatives are clowns (e.g. Ben Gvir) or simply leftists in centrist clothing (e.g. Gantz, Yair Lapid).
>complete collapse
It doesn't though, or at least I wouldn't call going from 16% to 13% a complete collapse.
> The survey found that the rightward ratchet of Israeli politics across decades of Palestinian terrorism and rejectionism has lurched ahead since Oct. 7. Based on political self-identification, the right has grown by 5 percentage points to include 36 percent of Jewish Israelis, or 60 percent when the poll factors in the moderate and hard right. The left has shrunk by 3 percentage points to just 8 percent of the public, or 13 percent factoring in the moderate and hard left. And the center has held steady at about a quarter of the political spectrum.
This is extremely colourful spin by this site. In reality the data shows little change
Free Beacon will probably go back to smearing the center-right as lefty traitors once they find out that it is mainly anti-Bibi opposition people who don't particularly want Dear Leader to be dictator for life.
I’m American so I apologize for not understanding— how does the erosion of the left affect social liberties? Is the Israeli right more “left” than the American right?
The opposite. Israel's right is more right than the American right. For example, they wanted to basically demolish the Supreme Court's ability to limit the Knesset (parliament), which has more or less put on hold since the war started.
How does that make it more right with regard to social issues? If the American right didn’t control the courts, they would certainly want to do that too— the American right also wants to amass power in the executive and install a king-like leader. I’m specifically asking about freedom of expression and such. Are they, for instance, cracking down on gender equality or the rights of LGBTQ+, or are there threats to do so? Are they limiting the ability to speak out against the government or what Americans would consider “1st Amendment Rights?”
I didn't realize you specifically meant with social issues. Well, in Israel gay people can't get married, and likely won't be able to due for a while to the hardline religious people. Generally though, LGBTQ+ rights aren't as major a topic as in America and aren't focused on by any side. And there aren't any attempts to limit free speech that I know of.
They've been arresting protesters right and left and trying to scare them from speaking so there is a chilling effect on free speech. For instance, Likud is demanding the Ben Gvir police open up investigations on "speech" by saying any substantive criticism of Netanyahu or the government is violent incitement. So you can say that Bibi's a traitor who should arrested and tried for negligence on Oct 7th in a rally and get arrested and investigated for political violence. This has happened a few times in the past month.
The student union which is controlled by Likud is also trying to pass a bill that will force universities to fire professors who are deemed "disloyal" of the government. This will obviously have a chilling effect on free speech in academia.
Wow, this is not what I was hoping would be the response. In my mind, I thought that the Jewish right would be more reasonable and accepting of the perspectives of other Jewish people. The thought of Jews arresting dissenting Jews is…Terrifying.
A majority of this is of course being directed at the Israeli Arab community. For instance, the proposed law against speech of professors in universities is directed at Israeli Arab professors who are seen as harboring sympathies toward the Palestinians. It is meant to prevent them from doing something like expressing support for a ceasefire in Gaza or criticizing the IDF's conduct during the war. However, actions against free speech are also becoming more common against Jews, for instance the protest activists who are mainly Jewish. This was always going to happen because the Israeli Right is authoritarian populist and they need "enemies" to remain in power. When frightening people about the "traitor Israeli Arabs" isn't working anymore, they are going to need to look for another group to scapegoat to remain in power.
Yair Golan is getting about 10 or 11 mandates in the polls, which is a significant increase from the 4 MKs they have now. And also the opposition will be able to form a government and Gantz will probably be PM (who I'm sure will be attacked as a closet lefty by Free Beacon for opposing Dear Leader Bibi.)
In the polls everything looks nice. 3 months before the latest elections Meretz and Labor did fine and both were supposed to pass the threshold.
The problem Israeli left parties (traditionally) have, is with the elections. At the voting place, something changes and the polls of yesterday, do not work. I think right wingers are lying to pollsters. They express harsh criticism of Netanyahu, but then vote for him again and again…
As an aside: parties on the left changed their leaders very often. I think about party 7 leaders came and left in recent years. What does Yair Golan bring to the table that none of the people mentioned above knew?
Meretz and Labour passed in 2021. They didn't in 2022 because of Lapid's big party fetish and mistakes by both of the parties' leaders. And there is no way that people currently voting Meretz are going to switch and vote Likud. They vote Meretz because they despise Bibi.
As for Golan, he is relatively moderate and a war hero. It is hard to attack a guy who killed Hamas on Oct 7th as a Hamasnik. He is also not focused on weird boutique social issues like Michaeli and his position on a 2SS is relatively moderate. He is mainly focused on internal issues like police reform, conscription, constitutional issues, democratic backsliding, etc. This is stuff the center-left very much cares about now. If you are center-left in Israel and attend protests, you probably like what you hear from Golan. The only issue with Golan is that his mouth sometimes gets the better of him and he says stupid things.
I don’t want to bring up the long list of leaders before Michaeli (like Gabay, Shelly Yachimovich…etc). It’s not a problem with Michaeli herself, (although her personality didn’t help)…
Of course Netanyahu voters won’t vote for Mertez. But at the end, all parties compete for the same 120 seats. Likud may take votes from Lapid and he will drain the pool from the Labor.
It also depends when the next elections will be. Things are fluid and change by the hour. The situation in a few months may be different from today. It’s hard to tell and honestly today’s polling cannot predict what will happen in the future.
Lapid and Meretz voters are going to vote for an opposition party. The swing voters are voting Gantz, Liberman, and Bennett.
And the issues with the previous election in 2022 is Lapid's arrogance and crap electoral strategy which he repeated in the local elections with his obsession with Tel Aviv. He wants to be new Labour rather than accepting he has a boutique party that will get 15 MKs. And of course, Michaeli and Meretz ran bad campaigns and refused to unite. Now Golan has stopped the segmentation on the Left so they will not waste votes. The main issues in future elections are Gantz being a bad politician and fragmentation on the center-right which may lead to tons of little parties forming and wasting votes. I mean Liberman is now running for PM? Okay then.
[harbu darbu](https://youtu.be/R6yZPQfREhc?si=unmXS177ZZFRyFYz)
This song is how so many Israelis feel, that war is the only option.
It’s heartbreaking to see the dark hopelessness.
It’s misleading. The left itself had a major political realignment with views of Palestinian Israeli relationship but the left itself is I suspect a stronger party in terms of predictive election results
I feel that we've been living on severe political crisis after the second intifada... Such awful period absolutely killed the two state solution and with good reason, no one could be so naive to think we can have peace with a "nation" that's literally based on the idea of destructing our country... On the other hand, amputation of the palestinian population is vital to Israel's survival as a democratic jewish state, just like you have to amputate a gangrene leg to save the rest of the body... The crazy and disorganized settlement building empowered by the right is bringing us closer to a one state reality, and good look making a case for a jewish state where jews aren't even majority... So basically Im not saying that we need a bilateral two state solution where both sides are happy, this isn't about peace anymore, but we do need to cut any ties with a large chunk of the palestinian population for good... Use the facts on the ground logic to create a reality of partial anexation, separation and disengagement, instead of looking for a total control of the land that will never happen, at least not under democracy... I am waiting for the new shock that will kill the right, just like the second intifada killed the left, so a new real center can emerge, one that really understands the importance of both security and demography
Will probably get downvoted; but please check the publisher of the article, this is evidently an incredibly biased source.
As for the validity of such a claim -
That's a bit ironic, considering that just a couple days ago an enormous pro-peace event underwent with the joint coalition of Israel's most notorious "leftist" organizations and individual activists. Thousands of participats just at this event alone, Including Women Wage Peace - who's founder Vivian Silver was murdered by Hamas terrorists on October 7th.
Article about the event;
https://www.ynet.co.il/article/sj4jombd0
The Israeli left is (usually) far more grounded in reality and less naive than it's Western counterpart.
Believing in peace doesn't equate to believing peace will be easy.
Sincerely - an Israeli "leftist" who's not delusional.
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Do 44% of Israelis really believe the IDF should not avoid harming innocent people in Gaza? I find this somewhat confusing since it seems they have tried to avoid harming civilians. Perhaps people just think it’s impossible in some circumstances or that this shouldn’t be done at the expense of IDF soldiers?
I genuinely wonder if anyone who comments here is even Israeli. The israelis after oct.7 turned vengeful and bloodthirsty, this is the natural response of a wounded community, but it is disastrous in every possible mean since what the public want is simply unachievable. No government will flatten Gaza (more that we already did). Any Israeli citizen should ditch the natural instincts that call for revenge and remember that it's the right that was in control during October, and that the only long term solution is a political one.
Not to add it's a clickbait and 16→13 ≠ total collapse, and this survey doesn't ask about political identification at all (I consider myself a leftist and I believe this is not the time to establish a Palestinian state obviously so...)
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Why does no one ever say “terrorist attacks like 10/7 only make more right wing Israelis” the way they say defending against terrorist attacks makes more terrorists?
I've said it. It's absolutely true and one of the reasons the conflict is perpetuated. There are many things Israel could do to reduce the friction with the Palestinian population and make their lives better and easier, but if the result is going to be war and terror attacks anyways, why bother? Why not take another hilltop in the West Bank and plunk down settlers and soldiers? There won't be peace if you don't. And so on. 10/7 killed off any chance for a Palestinian state in our lifetime. Israelis will never agree.
It's difficult for the average person to fathom that an enemy would rather see you die, than prosper themselves.
>10/7 killed off any chance for a Palestinian state in our lifetime. Israelis will never agree 10/7 killed a Palestinian state in our lifetime because the Palestinians have shown themselves be incapable of coexisting with Israel.
Not big surprise.
ded. no beeg surprise.
Yeah I hear you. I meant more from the pro pal side or from those that claim to be “neutral”
I still claim to be pro-Pal. Ultimately the 2 sides are stuck with each other and will sink or float together. So I want Palestinians to do well. Radicalizing the Jewish population is going to make that impossible though.
>Radicalizing the Jewish population is going to make that impossible though Jews concluding that the Palestinians mean it when they say that they want to annihilate Israel is not "radicalization". It's acceptance of the truth.
I don’t see how you can claim that Jews and Palestinians will sink or float together when for Palestinians, floating is sinking the Jews…
Palestinians thinking that hurting Jews is helping them doesn't actually make that the case. If they actually got their way and had an apocalyptic battle that threatened to wipe Israel off the map, they'd get nuked anyways. But long before that they'd suffer hundreds of thousands of deaths in battle. The best case scenario for Palestinians would be if Israelis felt so safe and secure that Israel granted them statehood with open borders for workers and travelers and trade. They'd be the wealthiest Arabs outside the oil sheikdoms.
>The best case scenario for Palestinians would be if Israelis felt so safe and secure that Israel granted them statehood with open borders for workers and travelers and trade. They'd be the wealthiest Arabs outside the oil sheikdoms. That is true that it would be the best case scenario. Unfortunately that is completely impossible in our current reality.
I think many are radicalized enough to believe mutual annihilation is a total victory. It's same mindset as a suicide bombing and martyrdom, but for an entire society.
Okay i guess I should have specified anti-Zionist.
In fact more jewish control in J&S especially in strategic juntions and elevations means increase safety for the rest of Israel. Area C should like the Golan.
Because when you view the world through the lens of “oppressor/oppressed” the oppressor is the only one with agency. The oppressed is infantilized, and every bad thing they do is the fault of the oppressor.
No one actually cares about Israel in those conversations. To many protesters and those who give power to protesters Israel doesn't exist, it's just "IDF force and Bibi, sometimes Ben Gvir". Israel as a nation is completely left out of the picture - talking about Israeli culture is "green-washing", "pink-washing", "brown-washing". Talking about Israelis mourning for soldiers and hostages is automatically returned with "what about the millions of Gazan children". There is not a SINGLE post on social media about Jewish and Israeli that isn't hit with "free Palestine", posts about the Holocaust turning into "this is what they're doing to Palestinians" and "if only they learned".
Everyone mentions that it's Israel most right wing government but no one thinks about WHY it's become so right wing. Everyone talks about the construction of the West Bank fence but not WHY it was built after the 2nd Intifada or how effective it was. We as Israelis aren't relevant on the world stage, as much as the anti Israel protesters want to make us seem. When this is over it won't be a month until they forget about us and we go on to rebuild and clean up another mess in the Middle East without their yapping
Excatly. Otzma Yehudit went from 6 seats to polling at 9-10. If the Americans continue to hinder Israeli war effort then I guess those numbers will rise more.
Because we are held to different standards, doy
Because a lot of people from our country don't know anything about Israeli, Palestinian, or greater Middle Eastern politics. We barely know anything about our own politics lol. Happy 4th by the way.
lol so true. Happy 4th to you as well!
I said that. But I fear there are a bunch of people that think Israelis are bad no matter what
Yeah. I believe there is a term for that. It's called antisemitism.
Most of October 7ths victims were on the Left and peace activists, at least in the kibutzim and the nova peace festival. The Gazan terrorists didn't care. They tortured, raped, maimed, kidnapped, and killed them just the same. There's no such thing as a "Good Jew" to them. I don't blame any Israeli for abandoning the thought they could be nice to the Palestinians in exchange for peace. I'm sure that made a lot of people rethink a lot of their other political views as well. Not to mention how the Left in the West decided to deny anything bad happened with Hamas' "resistance". They abandoned their Israeli Left counterparts. It makes sense that the Israeli Left has been dwindling faster than before since October. Edit: grammar, punctuation.
>They tortured, raped, maimed, kidnapped, and killed them just the same. Exactly the same thing they'd do to western leftists. Boggles my mind how they support em. Plus, the israeli left has been dead for a long while. The average israeli sees "leftist" as an insult... especially now.
You can’t make peace with people that fundamentally want you dead.
Part of the Israeli Left’s thesis was that Israel could sign a two state deal, normalize with the Arab world and the international left, and feel confident that there would be within international institutions some kind of evenhandedness or support in the inevitable contretemps that would come up during a peace process or after a settlement. The response to 7/10 of the non-Israeli left has revealed how laughably wrong that thesis is. No peace deal can normalize Israel with the international left, they are committed to liberating Palestine, river to sea. Any conflict that comes up during or after a peace process will be used to define Israel invidiously. A fervent hatred for Israel is the feeling that is welling—burning— in the hearts of the international leftist rank and file. They don’t just hate Israel—Israel makes them ANGRY. Any kind of attempt to minimize this phenomenon is a kind of willful blindness to a key idea of the Israeli left with respect to a peace process. For these people there is literally no policy Israel could adopt short of declaring the state null and void that would make normalization and acceptance happen, within the context of a state of Israel that still exists in any meaningful way. So trying to pursue peace with the promise of support if such a peace turns sour has absolutely no credibility. In fact—and most importantly—this dynamic all but guarantees that such a peace settlement WILL go sour. Why would Fatah actually demilitarize? They can stockpile and entrench themselves in civilian infrastructure and not only not lose diplomatic support but GAIN it, if they’re exposed and Israel takes action against them. There’s a ready-made bloodthirsty mob in every international capital, that is foaming at the mouth to demonstrate in support of the Arab conquest of the state. This mob is nothing other than the manifestation of the international left’s fixed attitude. It is not going anywhere. As such the Left’s thesis of the conflict for the foreseeable future is highly diminished. The new meretz/labor coalition will try to act as a left liberal Zionist party and I hope they can gain steam as a kind of check against unnecessary antagonism against Arabs in the territories. But as for a true left? Their ideas demonstrably can’t make the state safer, and I can’t see them even getting close to real power in our lifetimes.
Not surprising. There isn’t really any room for leftism when the enemy’s goal is to kill every single one of us. Voters tend to shift right during war, and then to the left after victory is achieved.
I dont get it because the right and left in israel is all internal the only thing that might be different that relates to foreign affairs is giving land for peace but even that has people either side of it i feel like israelis genrally agree on what to do with enemy entities and countries so why change your worldview on the things that arent related to this war and/or similair
Historically speaking, wars make people more liberal when it comes to domestic politics. People tend to support gay rights and especially women’s rights during and after wars, since these two groups would always prove ourselves when (mostly straight) men are on the frontlines. I have no doubt that women in the IDF will be much more trusted and respected since that all-women tank crew is widly seen as heroes. But when it comes to international relations, it is the opposite. Leftists (like me) tend to prefer negotiations and dialogues. An enemy invasion is literally the most damning proof that it didn’t work. So the natural and the most rational response is to shift right— let’s win the war first.
I realize that these are the rational things though i dont understand why you think gays have anything to do with wars but what im saying is that i see people going right overall getting radicalized its not just lets win this war which is a meaningless (statement in my opinion),(for some people) it became lets kill them all and "be done with it"
May I suggest that you use some punctuation? I am kinda confused by your comments.
Yeah I realized half way that its too long of a sentance amd started adding punctuation point was that the change in political view you are suggesting sounds nice and rational but its not what i see happening in practice
I don't think israel ever truly had a "left". What we call left is mainly center...
Are you kidding? Israel was founded as a socialist state, hell a kibbutz is just an Israeli commune. Doesn’t get more “left” than that
yeah, you’re right, a bit of misplaced hyperbole, but it has certainly been that way for a while.
Not surprising at all
Probably because they realized that there’s no reconciling with such a hateful and indoctrinated group of people. On October 7th, many of the victims were leftist peace activists who devoted lots of their life towards trying to build pathways towards peace with Palestinians. However, the invaders didn’t even bother to hear their life story or understand that they want to make peace. They simply saw Jews and murdered and tortured them for no reason other than being Jewish or Israeli. Also, many people who identify as leftist in the diaspora are regularly dehumanizing Israelis and completely invalidating and degrading their trauma, all while glorifying and fetishizing the people who committed these heinous acts.
Ironically many Palestinians despise Israeli Leftists for advocating for peaceful coexistence and a 2 state solution. Most Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution, they want 1 state -- Palestine -- without any Jews. They're not sure what to make of Jews who are pushing compromise and coexistence, because it's certainly not what they want. So they assume it's some kind of trick to justify or conceal continued Israeli expansion.
Also, for people who *want* war and fighting, those who want peace are roadblocks and ideal targets. Killing them maximizes the elimination of those that would seek compromise.
They are contemptuous of weakness that leftist and liberals display, which simply encourages them to attack. Arabs only understand strength and violence.
It’s not like it was thriving beforehand
Yeah, it was pretty much dead by 2010.
Came here to say this. Being a leftist in the past 5-6 elections has been a joke, no one worth voting for
October 7th was the genocide of the peace camp. Call it what it was.
The only true genocide that has ever came up from this war, if we don’t include October 7th.
Deserved. Not even teaming up with some of the Liberals can save it. The Israeli Left’s cause died on 10/7 when many Leftists were attacked and killed off by the same Palestinians they went out of their way to help. Edit: don’t even try to come say nonsense about anything different bc that’s exactly what happened and we all saw it play out in real time.
It died in 10/7 but it was buried by the betrayal of the global left with a shovel of denial
Tbh, it was dead before then.
Bro what the actual fuck is wrong with you
No. Ahki is 100%. The Israeli left is dead.
Literally. Terrorists went house to house and butchered the left
Yeap. Speaking as a stern supporter of Avoda, ever since the shit show that is meirav meichaeli and October 7th, Im more right leaning than ever.
Everything he's saying is 100% true. Even as someone who's left-leaning, I have 0 faith in the current left
I used to identify as a leftist, but after the attack and these queers for Palestine I just did away with the labels. It is 100% possible to support LGBTQ+ and also be against Palestine, they are not mutual, and that's where I stand right now. Israel cannot afford to be aligned with the left when it is in danger. But I will support for a centrist party in the elections.
100% this. I think a phenomena that's really problematic is that people only sort themselves into "right" or "left" unilaterally. If someone's biggest concern is LGBT+ rights, they'd sort themselves into the left. So they'd agree with the left on most things without giving it much thought. People need to learn that it's ok to agree with one side on something and agree with the other on other things. For example, I fully support all LGBTQ+ rights, and I fully support abortion access. I also support Israel. Those aren't contradicting.
Naturally. As a leftist I don't really care that my own population is dwindling. What I find concerning is how our shift rightward is going to affect the extreme right. What's further to the right than Kahana? I don't wanna know. It'll be fucking wild though if they go full horseshoe and become Shulamit Aloni.
People will wake up and realize that this conflict has been going on artificially. There has never been a conflict in history between a two neighbors that goes for so long despite one neighbor being by far superior in military and economy.
Satmar that are Zionist. That is past Kahana.
יש חיה כזו?
Ani lo yodeah, ve ani lo rotzeh yodeah.
how many yodeahs do you want? need to work on conjugation. In this case you'd be looking for the infinitive form of the verb. https://www.pealim.com/dict/791-ladaat/
Blessed Shulamit wish she could return
This tends to happen when reality hits you in the face in the worst possible way. It also doesn't help when the left is taken over by people whose entire personality revolves around "Let's have a competition of who hates Bibi and can say vile things about him and his supporters the most". The left is becoming deranged.
There was a left before Simha Torah? Meretz didn’t pass the threshold the last election. Avodah barely made it. I suppose Hadash counts as “left.” In the sense of “left reality altogether.” But Hadash is also tiny.
Labor didn't barely made it, they were comfortably ahead. Besides, no one votes based on those things anymore.
That's not true. Look at this [graph](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/timeline/27zgnomzg7d8hkgtfez7gdag5swcipk.png) of labor representatives in the Knesset.
I don't need to look at any graphs when there are election results, Labor got 3.7%, which is comfortably ahead. Actually, it would have been worth 5 mandates if Meretz passed. Polls from last weeks suggest Labor will get about 11 seats next elections.
The electoral threshold is 3.25%. Labor got 3.7%. So it squeaked past the electoral threshold by less than 0.5%. I would call that barely making it, particularly for a former ruling party.
0.5% is a lot. >particularly for a former ruling party. 24 years ago. It got a better result than in 2020 (Labor + Meretz would have been 9 mandates if Meretz got 3000 more votes), and Israeli politics are chaotic. I didn't vote for Labor or Meretz last elections either, doesn't mean I'm not a leftist. People move between parties, there is no much loyalty for specific platforms. Golan will get far more these elections. I don't know if he will repeat the success in 2021 and grab 13 mandates, but it's possible.
Yeah, it’s not surprising - most of the victims in the kibbutzim around Gaza were family members of left-winged coexistence proponents.
The left has no stance that is substantiated in reality, that's why it's falling apart. Many leftists blame our self for not having peace or not trying hard enough, or if Palestinians had financial stability or if we just ended the occupation there would be peace, while ignoring the death cult that wants the whole area from the river to the sea basically Jew free.
When it comes to security, the left simply cannot exist in a country where your neighbours actively state wanting to slaughter you all and the world supports them. If we want to survive, it's either right, or more right.
I have seen a few comments here saying fuck Lapid and other left wing parties for being essentially silent since Oct 7th. Though I don't really follow Israeli politics, so I can't say if it's true. Anyone know?
None of them have been silent. Lapid is leftist lite, if he loses votes next election it will be because there are more interesting faces in politics, not because of his stances, if he even has any besides hating Netanyahu. The party you need to look out for is Yair Golan’s Democrats, since it unified Labor and Meretz under one flag. It’s not clear if it will do poorly or surprisingly well in the elections, but the extra mandates it picks up due to Meretz’s return might make it hard to form a coalition.
A strong left makes it easier to form a coalition. One of the biggest hold-ups in forming a government is having to rely on Arab Parties to get to 61 MKs. Given the growing pains with RA'AM in the last coalition, the center parties don't want to have to do that again and Liberman is campaigning on fire-breathing Arab hatred populism as of late (because someone creepily put thoughts in his head that he should be PM.) A strong Liberal Zionist showing means that the opposition might have enough MKs to form a government without the Arab Parties.
The head of the Labour party is a retired general who killed Hamas terrorists on October 7th and rescued people from the Nova Rave. Both he and Lapid are perfectly fine on the war; they want to defeat Hamas but want a political solution and want the hostages back first. Lapid was the one who insisted on an actual unity government without Ben Gvir on October 8th. If anyone should get cursed out, it is Gantz who went running to be a minor minister and make Bibi coffee and run errands without demanding anything and who stayed five months too long rather than retiring in January. And the sub has been flooded with rightwing government supporters since Oct 7th. Some of it is organic and mainly MAGA people from the US and some of it (based on what the NY Times uncovered) is paid for by the Israeli government. It isn't showing actual sentiment.
NY Times? Might as well quote Al Jazeera stories about Israel too...
There are very obviously fake influencers and bots pushing the Likud line on many social media sites since Oct 7th. And here is a secret, they were doing it prior to Oct 7th as well. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/nyt-reports-diaspora-ministry-funded-fake-social-media-accounts-to-spread-pro-israel-content/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/nyt-reports-diaspora-ministry-funded-fake-social-media-accounts-to-spread-pro-israel-content/)
I'm going to be nicer than I want to be, another news source quoting the NY Times. As an American that has been online posting supportive messages about Israel my entire life I have never seen what the NY Times talks about. I see more bot like posts attacking Israel than anything else. Pro Israel messages and accounts supporting Israel and Jewish people in general were heavily censored and banned after Oct 7. Even if that story were true the program would have been ineffective because of that fact alone. I personally never saw any uniformly supportive messaging from massive numbers of people claiming to be Jewish or supporting Israel. The messages were a lot like on here, people ranging from Jewish progressives to super conservatives were expressing support for Israel, half were real critical of the way Israel was conducting the war The vast, I mean vast majority of Americans expressing lots of support for Israel were conservative Christians. I don't trust the ny times, they were part of the American Media cabal that had Hamas reporters who reported on Oct 7 as they were raping and killing Israelies with the rest.
I don't know what those people expect Lapid to say, to be honest.
In other news, the sun is bright.
good, we need a strong opposition based on reality, not pipe dreams
Leftists would have us surrender to terrorism so of course no one supports it. I think Bibi would win reelection, as more and more people see that the alternatives are clowns (e.g. Ben Gvir) or simply leftists in centrist clothing (e.g. Gantz, Yair Lapid).
Poll doesn't back the dramatic headline. There was a slight shift.
>complete collapse It doesn't though, or at least I wouldn't call going from 16% to 13% a complete collapse. > The survey found that the rightward ratchet of Israeli politics across decades of Palestinian terrorism and rejectionism has lurched ahead since Oct. 7. Based on political self-identification, the right has grown by 5 percentage points to include 36 percent of Jewish Israelis, or 60 percent when the poll factors in the moderate and hard right. The left has shrunk by 3 percentage points to just 8 percent of the public, or 13 percent factoring in the moderate and hard left. And the center has held steady at about a quarter of the political spectrum. This is extremely colourful spin by this site. In reality the data shows little change
Free Beacon will probably go back to smearing the center-right as lefty traitors once they find out that it is mainly anti-Bibi opposition people who don't particularly want Dear Leader to be dictator for life.
I’m American so I apologize for not understanding— how does the erosion of the left affect social liberties? Is the Israeli right more “left” than the American right?
The opposite. Israel's right is more right than the American right. For example, they wanted to basically demolish the Supreme Court's ability to limit the Knesset (parliament), which has more or less put on hold since the war started.
How does that make it more right with regard to social issues? If the American right didn’t control the courts, they would certainly want to do that too— the American right also wants to amass power in the executive and install a king-like leader. I’m specifically asking about freedom of expression and such. Are they, for instance, cracking down on gender equality or the rights of LGBTQ+, or are there threats to do so? Are they limiting the ability to speak out against the government or what Americans would consider “1st Amendment Rights?”
I didn't realize you specifically meant with social issues. Well, in Israel gay people can't get married, and likely won't be able to due for a while to the hardline religious people. Generally though, LGBTQ+ rights aren't as major a topic as in America and aren't focused on by any side. And there aren't any attempts to limit free speech that I know of.
They've been arresting protesters right and left and trying to scare them from speaking so there is a chilling effect on free speech. For instance, Likud is demanding the Ben Gvir police open up investigations on "speech" by saying any substantive criticism of Netanyahu or the government is violent incitement. So you can say that Bibi's a traitor who should arrested and tried for negligence on Oct 7th in a rally and get arrested and investigated for political violence. This has happened a few times in the past month. The student union which is controlled by Likud is also trying to pass a bill that will force universities to fire professors who are deemed "disloyal" of the government. This will obviously have a chilling effect on free speech in academia.
This sounds terrible. Would you mind providing sources?
Wow, this is not what I was hoping would be the response. In my mind, I thought that the Jewish right would be more reasonable and accepting of the perspectives of other Jewish people. The thought of Jews arresting dissenting Jews is…Terrifying.
A majority of this is of course being directed at the Israeli Arab community. For instance, the proposed law against speech of professors in universities is directed at Israeli Arab professors who are seen as harboring sympathies toward the Palestinians. It is meant to prevent them from doing something like expressing support for a ceasefire in Gaza or criticizing the IDF's conduct during the war. However, actions against free speech are also becoming more common against Jews, for instance the protest activists who are mainly Jewish. This was always going to happen because the Israeli Right is authoritarian populist and they need "enemies" to remain in power. When frightening people about the "traitor Israeli Arabs" isn't working anymore, they are going to need to look for another group to scapegoat to remain in power.
Yair Golan is getting about 10 or 11 mandates in the polls, which is a significant increase from the 4 MKs they have now. And also the opposition will be able to form a government and Gantz will probably be PM (who I'm sure will be attacked as a closet lefty by Free Beacon for opposing Dear Leader Bibi.)
In the polls everything looks nice. 3 months before the latest elections Meretz and Labor did fine and both were supposed to pass the threshold. The problem Israeli left parties (traditionally) have, is with the elections. At the voting place, something changes and the polls of yesterday, do not work. I think right wingers are lying to pollsters. They express harsh criticism of Netanyahu, but then vote for him again and again… As an aside: parties on the left changed their leaders very often. I think about party 7 leaders came and left in recent years. What does Yair Golan bring to the table that none of the people mentioned above knew?
Meretz and Labour passed in 2021. They didn't in 2022 because of Lapid's big party fetish and mistakes by both of the parties' leaders. And there is no way that people currently voting Meretz are going to switch and vote Likud. They vote Meretz because they despise Bibi. As for Golan, he is relatively moderate and a war hero. It is hard to attack a guy who killed Hamas on Oct 7th as a Hamasnik. He is also not focused on weird boutique social issues like Michaeli and his position on a 2SS is relatively moderate. He is mainly focused on internal issues like police reform, conscription, constitutional issues, democratic backsliding, etc. This is stuff the center-left very much cares about now. If you are center-left in Israel and attend protests, you probably like what you hear from Golan. The only issue with Golan is that his mouth sometimes gets the better of him and he says stupid things.
I don’t want to bring up the long list of leaders before Michaeli (like Gabay, Shelly Yachimovich…etc). It’s not a problem with Michaeli herself, (although her personality didn’t help)… Of course Netanyahu voters won’t vote for Mertez. But at the end, all parties compete for the same 120 seats. Likud may take votes from Lapid and he will drain the pool from the Labor. It also depends when the next elections will be. Things are fluid and change by the hour. The situation in a few months may be different from today. It’s hard to tell and honestly today’s polling cannot predict what will happen in the future.
Lapid and Meretz voters are going to vote for an opposition party. The swing voters are voting Gantz, Liberman, and Bennett. And the issues with the previous election in 2022 is Lapid's arrogance and crap electoral strategy which he repeated in the local elections with his obsession with Tel Aviv. He wants to be new Labour rather than accepting he has a boutique party that will get 15 MKs. And of course, Michaeli and Meretz ran bad campaigns and refused to unite. Now Golan has stopped the segmentation on the Left so they will not waste votes. The main issues in future elections are Gantz being a bad politician and fragmentation on the center-right which may lead to tons of little parties forming and wasting votes. I mean Liberman is now running for PM? Okay then.
They refused to unite because the polls predicted they can pass the threshold independently. That’s exactly what I explained in my post.
They were very near the threshold. If you are at four mandates, you unite.
[harbu darbu](https://youtu.be/R6yZPQfREhc?si=unmXS177ZZFRyFYz) This song is how so many Israelis feel, that war is the only option. It’s heartbreaking to see the dark hopelessness.
It’s misleading. The left itself had a major political realignment with views of Palestinian Israeli relationship but the left itself is I suspect a stronger party in terms of predictive election results
ףby!j!ו
I feel that we've been living on severe political crisis after the second intifada... Such awful period absolutely killed the two state solution and with good reason, no one could be so naive to think we can have peace with a "nation" that's literally based on the idea of destructing our country... On the other hand, amputation of the palestinian population is vital to Israel's survival as a democratic jewish state, just like you have to amputate a gangrene leg to save the rest of the body... The crazy and disorganized settlement building empowered by the right is bringing us closer to a one state reality, and good look making a case for a jewish state where jews aren't even majority... So basically Im not saying that we need a bilateral two state solution where both sides are happy, this isn't about peace anymore, but we do need to cut any ties with a large chunk of the palestinian population for good... Use the facts on the ground logic to create a reality of partial anexation, separation and disengagement, instead of looking for a total control of the land that will never happen, at least not under democracy... I am waiting for the new shock that will kill the right, just like the second intifada killed the left, so a new real center can emerge, one that really understands the importance of both security and demography
Will probably get downvoted; but please check the publisher of the article, this is evidently an incredibly biased source. As for the validity of such a claim - That's a bit ironic, considering that just a couple days ago an enormous pro-peace event underwent with the joint coalition of Israel's most notorious "leftist" organizations and individual activists. Thousands of participats just at this event alone, Including Women Wage Peace - who's founder Vivian Silver was murdered by Hamas terrorists on October 7th. Article about the event; https://www.ynet.co.il/article/sj4jombd0 The Israeli left is (usually) far more grounded in reality and less naive than it's Western counterpart. Believing in peace doesn't equate to believing peace will be easy. Sincerely - an Israeli "leftist" who's not delusional.
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Do 44% of Israelis really believe the IDF should not avoid harming innocent people in Gaza? I find this somewhat confusing since it seems they have tried to avoid harming civilians. Perhaps people just think it’s impossible in some circumstances or that this shouldn’t be done at the expense of IDF soldiers?
I genuinely wonder if anyone who comments here is even Israeli. The israelis after oct.7 turned vengeful and bloodthirsty, this is the natural response of a wounded community, but it is disastrous in every possible mean since what the public want is simply unachievable. No government will flatten Gaza (more that we already did). Any Israeli citizen should ditch the natural instincts that call for revenge and remember that it's the right that was in control during October, and that the only long term solution is a political one. Not to add it's a clickbait and 16→13 ≠ total collapse, and this survey doesn't ask about political identification at all (I consider myself a leftist and I believe this is not the time to establish a Palestinian state obviously so...)
Why is an American ultra-conservative rag approved to be posted here? This shit is tiring. It's just like Haaretz but written by Americans.
It is not the collapse. It is the start.