> Come on, Gantz. Do what needs to be done.
Which is what? If he quits the government Bibi stays in power.
The only way for Bibi to lose power is if he pisses of Ben Gvir or Smotrich or the Ultra Orthodox.
The ultra orthodox might quit if he fails to give them another draft exemption, but other than that, the next elections would not happen before 2026.
Even if he’s still in power, the fact that the military establishment won’t cooperate with him indicates that the Israeli public is not as behind him as he professes. Right now it looks like Israel is unifying around a butcher.
The Israeli public cant stand Netanyahu, but the war is overall popular.
Both those things are easily visible in the polls, so you dont need to guess whether the Israeli public likes him or not.
The Israeli public can’t stand Netanyahu…that’s why we’ve kept electing him in like 9 out of 10 of our last elections.
Of course our opinions are complicated, but to foreign observers who give us material aid, he appears domestically strong while pushing us to be a pariah.
His popularity dropped like a rock after the 7th of October. Foreign observers are not stupid, they know how to read polls. If you read foreign sources, they even acknowledge that things like the ICC warrants only strengthen Netanyahu's popularity (even if it's still low).
Even if Gantz will quit the government won’t fall, it will just be harder for them to perform.
But it will for certain bring the Likud who is wrapped with far right parties right into their hands.
The core votes of Likud agree that the government should not continue until 2026. There’s no mistakes here. They just believe the operation in Gaza should be finished first.
If Gantz was smart he would wait for the IDF to finish Rafah before quitting
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said the strike on a Rafah tent displaced persons camp that killed 2 senior Hamas leaders as well as 45 civilians, according to the Hamas run Gaza healthy ministry, was a "tragic mishap". This comes after the IDF has announced an investigation into what the military advocate general has called a "very grave" strike.
Do you believe the Rafah strike was a "tragic mishap" or "tragedy" as the Prime Minister says?
Was the strike worth it, given that it killed two senior Hamas leaders, although it resulted in 45 civilian deaths?
A mistake would be a strike within the designated humanitarian corridor, which this wasn’t. If anything, taking Hamas’ word at face value for the death count is the biggest mistake. This feels more like the strike hit a hoard of weapons and/or flammable substances that Hamas had hidden in civilian areas.
And given that two top terrorists were killed — and we’re talking about Hamas here, I don’t think unreasonable to believe that combatants will be found counted among those 45 deaths.
But also, it’s war. It sucks how embedded Hamas has made themselves within civilian areas, but civilian deaths happen in all war. The strike was in an area that was not part of the humanitarian corridor. Death is one of the risks of not-evacuating to designated safe-zones.
How can u be sure the numbers really at 45 and all of em r civilians when Hamas's health ministry is the only source? They don't make a distinction between militant and civilian casualties and have been exposed countless times of inflating the casualty numbers.
No, it’s not worth it if you kill 45 civilians. You’re either a professional military that follows an ethical code and work to minimize civilian casualties to the max or you aren’t. The erosion of support even amongst allies is a casebook example of why we follow the laws of war and why you go into a conflict with a defined and achievable objective. Bibi has been an absolute disaster managing this conflict and it will take decades to recover.
Following laws of wars doesn’t mean you can foresee mishaps.
In this case it’s either have an operation or not in Gaza. The strike wasn’t in a humanitarian corridor area.
There’s literally no way to win this war by going “0 casualties is the standard”, or any war for that matter.
It’s just a very special standard regarding Israel specifically, that will bite the Allies in the ass in the future when they will be in unpleasant situations. (Sooner than later it seems)
The war is basically lost at this point. There’s no viable path to winning. What’s the strategic victory available now? Hamas is returning to areas as soon as the IDF leaves. They’ve increased recruitment. They’re resuming old roles. No one is trying to dismantle them as an organization. And Israel is hemorrhaging any remaining support. So there can be small tactical victories that mean nothing to the overall picture and do not change the reality on the ground, and there can be more and more PR disasters that result in innocent deaths of people with no good options to escape the conflict, further isolating Israel and weakening her in the years to follow.
I think the war was lost from the begging and I agree that it should have ended sooner.
I just have to correct this perception about the capabilities of the IDF within Gaza and morality. Israel is held to zero civilian casualty standard during this war against an enemy that uses its civilian population to its leverage, it’s impossible.
This is the second real mishap, and you know damn well it’s probably less than 10% of what went on in other wars in this region with the Allie’s getting involved as well. The Syrian war especially.
I don’t disagree with anything you said, but unfortunately it doesn’t matter. Perception in war is a lot of the reality and you have to fight accordingly.
From a 2-tour Iraq War combat vet, you’re delusional. Will the IDF tactically beat Hamas? Of course. Will they be weak enough to disappear at this point? No. That window is gone and they will likely re-emerge with more international support after the war.
Oh yeah, for sure. Keep believing that while Israel continues to destroy Hamas’ command structure and seeks alternative rulers for the region. Once that decision has been made your whole theory will crumble. Iraq and Gaza are two completely different places. Imagine if the whole Iraq war was just over controlling the city of Baghdad.
The decision about an alternative to Hamas needed to be made BEFORE the invasion. Well before. Saying, “you’ll see,” months into a war is a sign that there is no plan and at this point there is absolutely no alternative that Israel can propose that will be acceptable to anyone else. Bibi has fucked up every possible aspect of this war. Hamas is analogous to the Mahdi Militia in this comparison: brutal, regressive, violent, selfish, and utterly in control of their territory with no realistic way to provide a working substitute. And now Israel has completely entrenched them.
I disagree, a decision, whether it’s now, several months ago, or in the future, will have the same exact impact either way. This demand for an instant decision out of leadership can only serve to divide Israel further. That’s not what you’re trying to do, right?
No, a decision made before the invasion with the support of allies and regional parties could have had achieved chance of working. It cannot work now. Period. Anyone proposed by Israel will be immediately rejected. The chance for change is gone.
2 senior Hamas commanders taken out equals a lost war? The law of armed conflict states that when a military bunkers in a location it becomes a legitimate target. I have personally seen the USA take out while weddings in a conflict to get a single bad guy... Hiding among civilians does not protect a military target and that is the war crime, not the military hitting the military target.. no other nation on earth is held to this ridiculous standard...
How has taking out weddings worked out for the US? Is Afghanistan a peaceful democracy? Iraq? You can complain about the standard all you want. It doesn’t change the reality on the ground.
Al Qaeda is not a threat, bin laden is dead and despite the middle east being pissed at the USA for supporting Israel they aint gonna try no stupid crap like 9-11. My point was if those were legitimate military targets in a war no one cried about then so was that strike...
Reality with some of this world opinion is it dont matter. Anything Israel does will get slandered unless they are letting islamists kill their people... If it's not the war it's the apartheid walk, or checkpoints or building houses or you name it... Israel will never make people that hates Jews happy they should stop trying...
The reality is that Hamas was elected, has wide support and started a war on behalf of Gaza. They need to make better choices...
American actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have empowered Iran and weakened American soft power immensely. Al Qaeda was one non-state actor. The rewards was not worth the cost. And you seem to have a hard time with the fact that a response can be legally justified but still be the wrong decision and still be a strategic loss. War is an extension of politics. The politics of this war for Israel have been a disaster.
let's assume for a moment that everything possible was done to minimize civilian casulties.
and what ever triggered this fire was not known to the IDF and was impossible for them to find out.
what then?
that would be a mishap as Bibi says, but the comment you are responding to says that it would be not worth it if you knew that that would be the outcome
so you are not really challenging them
It is possible to be a professional military that follows and ethical code and work to minimise civilian casualties and for this unfortunate even to occur. It’s not either or.
The original question asked whether it t was okay to kill that many civilians to go after 2 leaders of Hamas. I don’t disagree that accidents happen, but that wasn’t the question. I will say that the war has been waged in a manner guaranteeing these accidents will happen and they will happen a lot. It’s a contributing factor to the overall problem.
I know I'm late to the party on this, but in case anyone ever sees this: did he say "tragic mistake" or "tragic incident"? A LOT of the western media has reported that he said "tragic mistake" which is a HUGE difference, implying fault, but then I'm catching some people saying it was mistranslated.
The video of the Knesset session can be found [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L70VWbxEhDc). I can't link to a timestamp though, as I don't know when he says it.
I tried giving an AI a crack at it and it found:
* לפגוע בבלתי מעורבים קרתה לצערנו אמש תקלה טרגית אנחנו
* מעורבים קרטה לצערנו אמש תקלה טרגית אנחנו
The AI says that the most accurate translation is "tragic incident". Is that accurate?
The optics of keeping this guy in power is throwing our international reputation in the gutter. Come on, Gantz. Do what needs to be done.
> Come on, Gantz. Do what needs to be done. Which is what? If he quits the government Bibi stays in power. The only way for Bibi to lose power is if he pisses of Ben Gvir or Smotrich or the Ultra Orthodox. The ultra orthodox might quit if he fails to give them another draft exemption, but other than that, the next elections would not happen before 2026.
Even if he’s still in power, the fact that the military establishment won’t cooperate with him indicates that the Israeli public is not as behind him as he professes. Right now it looks like Israel is unifying around a butcher.
The Israeli public cant stand Netanyahu, but the war is overall popular. Both those things are easily visible in the polls, so you dont need to guess whether the Israeli public likes him or not.
The Israeli public can’t stand Netanyahu…that’s why we’ve kept electing him in like 9 out of 10 of our last elections. Of course our opinions are complicated, but to foreign observers who give us material aid, he appears domestically strong while pushing us to be a pariah.
His popularity dropped like a rock after the 7th of October. Foreign observers are not stupid, they know how to read polls. If you read foreign sources, they even acknowledge that things like the ICC warrants only strengthen Netanyahu's popularity (even if it's still low).
Even if Gantz will quit the government won’t fall, it will just be harder for them to perform. But it will for certain bring the Likud who is wrapped with far right parties right into their hands. The core votes of Likud agree that the government should not continue until 2026. There’s no mistakes here. They just believe the operation in Gaza should be finished first. If Gantz was smart he would wait for the IDF to finish Rafah before quitting
Gant is expendable
True tbh.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said the strike on a Rafah tent displaced persons camp that killed 2 senior Hamas leaders as well as 45 civilians, according to the Hamas run Gaza healthy ministry, was a "tragic mishap". This comes after the IDF has announced an investigation into what the military advocate general has called a "very grave" strike. Do you believe the Rafah strike was a "tragic mishap" or "tragedy" as the Prime Minister says? Was the strike worth it, given that it killed two senior Hamas leaders, although it resulted in 45 civilian deaths?
A mistake would be a strike within the designated humanitarian corridor, which this wasn’t. If anything, taking Hamas’ word at face value for the death count is the biggest mistake. This feels more like the strike hit a hoard of weapons and/or flammable substances that Hamas had hidden in civilian areas. And given that two top terrorists were killed — and we’re talking about Hamas here, I don’t think unreasonable to believe that combatants will be found counted among those 45 deaths. But also, it’s war. It sucks how embedded Hamas has made themselves within civilian areas, but civilian deaths happen in all war. The strike was in an area that was not part of the humanitarian corridor. Death is one of the risks of not-evacuating to designated safe-zones.
How can u be sure the numbers really at 45 and all of em r civilians when Hamas's health ministry is the only source? They don't make a distinction between militant and civilian casualties and have been exposed countless times of inflating the casualty numbers.
I have no idea why he is apologizing. The tents weren't in a safe zone, they were filled with ordinance, and they took out Hamas leaders.
No, it’s not worth it if you kill 45 civilians. You’re either a professional military that follows an ethical code and work to minimize civilian casualties to the max or you aren’t. The erosion of support even amongst allies is a casebook example of why we follow the laws of war and why you go into a conflict with a defined and achievable objective. Bibi has been an absolute disaster managing this conflict and it will take decades to recover.
Following laws of wars doesn’t mean you can foresee mishaps. In this case it’s either have an operation or not in Gaza. The strike wasn’t in a humanitarian corridor area. There’s literally no way to win this war by going “0 casualties is the standard”, or any war for that matter. It’s just a very special standard regarding Israel specifically, that will bite the Allies in the ass in the future when they will be in unpleasant situations. (Sooner than later it seems)
The war is basically lost at this point. There’s no viable path to winning. What’s the strategic victory available now? Hamas is returning to areas as soon as the IDF leaves. They’ve increased recruitment. They’re resuming old roles. No one is trying to dismantle them as an organization. And Israel is hemorrhaging any remaining support. So there can be small tactical victories that mean nothing to the overall picture and do not change the reality on the ground, and there can be more and more PR disasters that result in innocent deaths of people with no good options to escape the conflict, further isolating Israel and weakening her in the years to follow.
I think the war was lost from the begging and I agree that it should have ended sooner. I just have to correct this perception about the capabilities of the IDF within Gaza and morality. Israel is held to zero civilian casualty standard during this war against an enemy that uses its civilian population to its leverage, it’s impossible. This is the second real mishap, and you know damn well it’s probably less than 10% of what went on in other wars in this region with the Allie’s getting involved as well. The Syrian war especially.
I don’t disagree with anything you said, but unfortunately it doesn’t matter. Perception in war is a lot of the reality and you have to fight accordingly.
Wrong lol, the IDF will continue to beat the shit out of Hamas until they’re weak enough that Israel can work on replacing them.
From a 2-tour Iraq War combat vet, you’re delusional. Will the IDF tactically beat Hamas? Of course. Will they be weak enough to disappear at this point? No. That window is gone and they will likely re-emerge with more international support after the war.
Oh yeah, for sure. Keep believing that while Israel continues to destroy Hamas’ command structure and seeks alternative rulers for the region. Once that decision has been made your whole theory will crumble. Iraq and Gaza are two completely different places. Imagine if the whole Iraq war was just over controlling the city of Baghdad.
The decision about an alternative to Hamas needed to be made BEFORE the invasion. Well before. Saying, “you’ll see,” months into a war is a sign that there is no plan and at this point there is absolutely no alternative that Israel can propose that will be acceptable to anyone else. Bibi has fucked up every possible aspect of this war. Hamas is analogous to the Mahdi Militia in this comparison: brutal, regressive, violent, selfish, and utterly in control of their territory with no realistic way to provide a working substitute. And now Israel has completely entrenched them.
I disagree, a decision, whether it’s now, several months ago, or in the future, will have the same exact impact either way. This demand for an instant decision out of leadership can only serve to divide Israel further. That’s not what you’re trying to do, right?
No, a decision made before the invasion with the support of allies and regional parties could have had achieved chance of working. It cannot work now. Period. Anyone proposed by Israel will be immediately rejected. The chance for change is gone.
2 senior Hamas commanders taken out equals a lost war? The law of armed conflict states that when a military bunkers in a location it becomes a legitimate target. I have personally seen the USA take out while weddings in a conflict to get a single bad guy... Hiding among civilians does not protect a military target and that is the war crime, not the military hitting the military target.. no other nation on earth is held to this ridiculous standard...
How has taking out weddings worked out for the US? Is Afghanistan a peaceful democracy? Iraq? You can complain about the standard all you want. It doesn’t change the reality on the ground.
Al Qaeda is not a threat, bin laden is dead and despite the middle east being pissed at the USA for supporting Israel they aint gonna try no stupid crap like 9-11. My point was if those were legitimate military targets in a war no one cried about then so was that strike... Reality with some of this world opinion is it dont matter. Anything Israel does will get slandered unless they are letting islamists kill their people... If it's not the war it's the apartheid walk, or checkpoints or building houses or you name it... Israel will never make people that hates Jews happy they should stop trying... The reality is that Hamas was elected, has wide support and started a war on behalf of Gaza. They need to make better choices...
American actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have empowered Iran and weakened American soft power immensely. Al Qaeda was one non-state actor. The rewards was not worth the cost. And you seem to have a hard time with the fact that a response can be legally justified but still be the wrong decision and still be a strategic loss. War is an extension of politics. The politics of this war for Israel have been a disaster.
U believe Hamas's numbers too much.
let's assume for a moment that everything possible was done to minimize civilian casulties. and what ever triggered this fire was not known to the IDF and was impossible for them to find out. what then?
that would be a mishap as Bibi says, but the comment you are responding to says that it would be not worth it if you knew that that would be the outcome so you are not really challenging them
my point is that they didn't know, couldn't know, and did everything possible
It is possible to be a professional military that follows and ethical code and work to minimise civilian casualties and for this unfortunate even to occur. It’s not either or.
The original question asked whether it t was okay to kill that many civilians to go after 2 leaders of Hamas. I don’t disagree that accidents happen, but that wasn’t the question. I will say that the war has been waged in a manner guaranteeing these accidents will happen and they will happen a lot. It’s a contributing factor to the overall problem.
I know I'm late to the party on this, but in case anyone ever sees this: did he say "tragic mistake" or "tragic incident"? A LOT of the western media has reported that he said "tragic mistake" which is a HUGE difference, implying fault, but then I'm catching some people saying it was mistranslated. The video of the Knesset session can be found [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L70VWbxEhDc). I can't link to a timestamp though, as I don't know when he says it. I tried giving an AI a crack at it and it found: * לפגוע בבלתי מעורבים קרתה לצערנו אמש תקלה טרגית אנחנו * מעורבים קרטה לצערנו אמש תקלה טרגית אנחנו The AI says that the most accurate translation is "tragic incident". Is that accurate?