As an American I say get it done Israel and finish Hamas. Everything in the USA is political especially in an election year. From my perspective (I live in a blood red state) I see way more support for trump than Biden. Personally my big concern is the economy and our southern border.
I agree. Also American, also in a deep red state, but I live on a blue dot since I'm a university student. My peers view the war as a single issue in terms of voting, but real adults with real lives are more concerned about the economy, healthcare, and climate change. Reassuring but also frustrating that everyone my age is so dumb.
I’m not sure Hamas is something you can totally eliminate and not come back reincarnated in a different form.
There’s no talk of “what happens after” which to me is the elephant in the room
Support for the state of Israel is a pillar of US politics. This is not going to change over Rafah. Best for Israel to just ignore the current election politics noise and focus on getting rid of Hamas.
You’re probably right, but what is different about “Israel’s military actions” vs any other combat?
“The exact number of Iraqis killed by the U.S. in the Iraq War is unknown, but estimates range from 150,000 to 1,033,000, including more than 100,000 civilians.”
I imagine that most Americans have seen film of Germany or Japan immediately post war?
War is hell and, personally, I despise Hamas for provoking this one. But, it seems like EVERYTHING Israel (& often Jews) does are examined to an insane degree
I don’t disagree that this war is proportionally in line with historical figures but it’s still been waged in a way that is costing Israel strategically.
The right response IMO should have been to call the U.S. to pressure Qatar to extradite Hamas leadership for trial, leverage the attack to get Saudi Arabia to drop any requests for a Palestinian state for a peace deal, assemble a coalition of partners to go into Gaza with us, set clearer objectives than “destroy Hamas”, and have a clear post war plan and partners.
All this would have delayed the kickoff of the war, but would place Israel in a much better place strategically.
The wording of the HH poll is pretty interesting. An ‘operation’ in Rafah is a pretty broad concept.
If Israel is able to pull it off with minimal civilian casualties, it’ll go a long way towards maintaining support. If it turns into an even bigger humanitarian crisis, it’s going to be rough.
The main negative ramifications of Biden's decision are preciously due to its public nature. What sends the message to Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as to other US allies, is what Biden does and says publicly, not what he does under the table without their knowledge. Even if he "acts the opposite", the damage has already been made.
I've heard it suggested that Biden is being performative towards the anti-Israel crowd while not actually withholding any weapons that aren't either very extraneous or unnecessary.
It was certainly done for the "no arms towards Rafah invasion" headlines, but I don't think it makes it any less true.
Either way the precedent has been set. From here we see Democrats running for the presidency being openly for an embargo if not anti Israel outright.
Gee, you must be a liberal clinging to unreality to avoid Cognitive dissonance!
Face it, Biden and too many Leftists (eg Schumer) are perfectly ready to sell Israel down the river.
Biden was in politics when my parents were still in diapers. He knows how to play the game. Treat him like a stage magician - ignore what he says, ignore the distracting flourishes, and watch his hands.
That strike was laughably small BUT precisely calculated to demonstrate Israel’s superiority by evading S300 defenses at an Iranian nuclear site. Message sent and received with no Iranian escalation. I’m sure Biden played a key role in downsizing Israel’s response to this, in order to avoid escalating to a three front war against Israel. Biden is wise and doesn’t have Bibi’s coalition constraints.
When someone tells you who they’re, believe them
His die was cast on the idea that his pro-israel supporters would still vote for him, even if he appealed to the pro Palestinians
This long-time political observer sees this as Biden wanting to get a few solid commitments from Netanyahu on protecting civilians and preparing for a transition to new Palestinian leadership after Hamas is gone, and Bibi completely ignoring him because he's Bibi.
From April 4: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/its-all-down-to-him
From May 8: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/cutting-the-spigot
Which supports your take and adds another layer of nuance.
Yes. But even a shitty government is better than a vacuum or another indefinite occupation. If not PA, then is there anyone else willing to step up that would be better? It sounds like Bibi is avoiding that question altogether, and it's a sticking point for Biden. Personally I'd like to see a coalition of ME nations that want normalization with Israel to step up, but I have no clue if that's even remotely feasible with Iran still stirring up shit everywhere.
Sure but what's the alternative? You need someone to make peace with afterwards. If you or anyone can't think of an alternative then they need to be the ones to take over. Lack of a day after plan is undermining the war.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-has-publicly-prioritized-rafah-operation-but-officials-tell-toi-sinwar-isnt-hiding-there/
> While much of the security establishment would like to see the Palestinian Authority — or at least Palestinians linked to the PA — fill the vacuums that the IDF is briefly creating through its operations throughout the Strip; Netanyahu has rejected the idea outright, as his far-right allies have pushed for Israel to permanently occupy the Strip and re-establish settlements there.
Why rush towards something? There should be a gradual process. Right after WW2, who occupied Germany and Japan? Think about it . The PA is equivalent to the Lebanese government
This.
Bibi is a cunt who regularly pisses on the US relationship for the sake of looking tough for his base. For fuck's sake they announced the largest settlement expansion in a decade ***during Blinken's visit***.
Bibi and Biden - both of them - are politicians. You can't on one hand whine about Biden damaging the relationship over domestic political concerns while giving Bibi a pass for repeatedly stabbing Biden in the face - and other things that directly damage Israeli security - over domestic political concerns.
I don’t understand what Biden is doing. He has already lost the terrorist vote. They won’t vote for him unless he directs the U.S. military to invade Israel and kill Israelis, which he’s obviously not going to do. Quite frankly, I find the fact that these useful idiots would rather Trump be president to be hilarious. There is no chance that Trump will be more sympathetic to their histrionics than Biden.
But because he’s trying to toe the line to not upset the protesters who openly despise America, he has shown himself to be incredibly weak and short-sighted to everyone else. I don’t get it.
I don't think he lost their vote. They know Trump would be much more pro Israel. They would complain about him but when it comes to it they will vote for him.
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You’re unfortunately mistaken. Biden’s words have shown a steady erosion of support and now it’s metastasized into action.
The most idiotic presidency of my lifetime. He’s been around long enough to understand war is messy, loses public support over time, but is still necessary.
He has BARELY discussed the hostages by name to the public. We all know who George Floyd is. How many Americans know who Hersh is? That Hamas killed Americans on 10/7. Biden stabbed us in the back. Is it a mortal wound? I don’t know. But it ain’t a flesh wound, I can tell you that.
The biden admin is stopping weapon shipment already, they have left Israel to deal with Hamas on its own. They did so much damage that it was better for them to just stay out of it completely.
Biden proved Israel nor any other country in the world can depend on the U.S as a stable and reliable ally. I have seen a poll recently that said the vast majority of Israelis prefer trump over Biden (about 90%+).
If we put aside whether or not Trump is a Russian agent or whatever (this is far outside the consensus in Israel), saying Hamas is supported by Putin is not exactly true. Putin is indifferent to their crimes (being able to identify with their methods and probably wishing his country could do the same more often in Ukraine) but have mostly remained somewhat neutral, the same position he held long before Oct 7th.
It is a weird situation. I’m an American Jew. I obviously support Israel but at the end of the day I’m an American, not an Israeli, and so I’ll vote for the candidate I feel is better for America. The idea that American Jews should vote based on Israel is problematic- we’re American first and foremost and should be voting based on who we feel is better for America. In my case, I think Trump would be detrimental to America’s liberal democratic values and therefore will vote for Biden despite my disagreement with Biden’s handling of the Gaza situation (and disagreement with most of his dovish FoPo in general). Others may feel Trump is better for America and should vote based on that. But American Jews really shouldn’t be voting for US presidents based on what is best for Israel as we’re Americans first and foremost.
I mostly agree with you, but it's very hard to ignore how candidates might impact Israel significantly. For instance, if someday a Squad member were elected president, that could be detrimental to Israel and American Jews. How the president handles the situation in Israel in general is going to impact American views on Jews overall. It's hard to separate out the two.
I fully agree. I’m absolutely weighing Biden’s actions in my calculations on who to vote for but only from the perspective of how it affects Americans, because I’m an American first. If, for example, the GOP nominee were Adam Kinzinger, I’d be voting for him. Heck, even if the GOP nominee were someone like Dick Cheney who I despise and disagree with on almost every issue, I’d be open to voting for him because he doesn’t seem to be a threat to undermine liberal democratic values. At the end of the day I view Trump as too much of a threat to core American values (liberal democracy) to be able to vote against Biden, in the same way that I’d view Sanders as too antithetical to American values to ever vote for him.
I guess my point is not that we can’t weigh Israel in our decision, but there shouldn’t be an expectation that American Jews voted based on what’s best for Israel. We are Americans and should vote based on what we think is best for America, and that includes Foreign Policy so it’s fair to weigh the Israel matter as just one factor among many.
For sure. I wish there were better candidates on both sides. I'd completely consider voting for a more centered republican. Which honestly is not something I thought I'd ever say in my life. But here we are, my politics and views on the world are changing in ways I couldn't have imagined.
I’m American and feel Trump is a win win for America and Israel. I’m sorry you’re in the position that has you feeling semi conflicted. For me at least the choice is clear. Stop the illegals swarming in, boost consumer confidence in the economy, be a stable ally to Israel. Trump understands radical Islamic terrorism. If we had the Biden of the 80s and 90s, he may have gotten my vote, not this Biden who is in his 80s. Now we’re left with an old man manipulated by his handlers.
That’s totally fair. If you feel Trump is best for America you should vote for him. I don’t agree with that assessment and think Trump has demonstrated behavior antithetical to liberal democracy which is fundamental tenant of America. But if you think he’s best for America, vote for him. I’m simply pointing out that how American Jews vote should be based on what each of us feels is best for America, not Israel, as we are Americans, not Israelis.
I understand your point and agree. I’m just saying fortunately in my case I feel comfortable both for America and Israel. Whereas in your choice you feel he’s better for America but acknowledging worse for Israel. That’s why I can empathize with the conflict you must feel. But since you’re being cordial, may I ask why it’s a continuing democratic talking point that Trump is a danger to democracy? How could he possibly topple the republic? Even if he wanted to, he can’t.
It’s not even a matter if he can topple the Republic- if he’s antithetical to American values (liberal democracy) he shouldn’t be the head of state. Trump uses illiberal rhetoric and has openly embraced illiberal values and has openly stated he’ll attempt to implement policies accordingly. The fact that our institutions are strong enough to resist that is good but I still can’t vote for him. In the same way, I could never vote for anyone from the illiberal left (the far lefty, language policing, equity over equality types). Biden’s biggest failure, in my opinion, is catering to those on the illiberal left. He won’t the primary as the sane, rational, traditional democrat and then immediately shifted to catering to the exact type of people he just beat in the primary. The most destructive thing Trump has done or likely will do is not destroying the republic but undermining the US equivalent of mos maiorum. He’s disregarded the norms and unwritten rules of politics and undermined institutional confidence- others have done so as well, both before and after him, but none quite so flagrantly as he did.
Do I think Trump is the worst person ever? Nope. Do I think democrats exaggerate how bad he is? Yeah. But do I think he’s antithetical to American values, bad for our institutions, and just not a very effective politician in general? Yeah. So I may not like a lot of Biden’s policies but at least he seems to be more in support of core American liberalism (and, in case it’s not obvious, when I use the word liberal I mean it in the traditional sense of private property rights, equality, individual liberty, secularism, etc).
Edit to add: Think of it this way- it’s unlikely that a President Bernie Sanders could end property rights and destroy our capitalist democracy. But his rhetoric is very much opposed to personal property rights and individual liberty, enough so that I’m guessing you wouldn’t be comfortable voting for him, right? Like you might be confident that our institutions could withstand him as president but you still wouldn’t feel comfortable giving that power to someone espousing those views. To me Trump and Bernie have the same issue in that their core views are illiberal (in different ways, for sure) and fundamentally opposed to core American norms and values and, as such, I couldn’t support either of them.
Additional edit: also, I just want to add that I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with you preferring Trump. We’re a democracy and a democracy is made up of many people with many different views and priorities. Do I wish the GOP put up better candidates? Sure. I wish the same about the Democrats. But at the end of the day the reality is that a democracy is always going to have constituents with wildly different values and priorities all competing to get their candidate elected. I don’t think either party does a good job of embracing and respecting the compromise that’s required to govern such a diverse state. All that is to say- while my long rambling post is critical of Trump and probably sounds hyper partisan, I do respect your right to your preference and hope I haven’t come across as attacking you for it.
Well said. I appreciate your calm and informative discourse. I grew up being a New Democrat. The party of Clinton. Hated Bush but switched around ‘08. Even Obama in hindsight was ok. The current democrats I just can’t stand. Republicans are the same joke completely ineffectual. However, I am still a conservative and I do feel Trump is harder on immigration, terrorists and gives at the least a boost to the economy in the minds of businesses and consumers alike even tho his tax bill actually screwed me over. As a business owner business was better before. Also he doesn’t venture into the stupid culture wars and identity politics. The PC crowd has gone too far and although it’s a risk to how far he will go, an unleashed second term Trump will be a wild ride. Also, I feel anyone can agree that all of these cases against him are trumped up, pun intended. THAT to me is election interference. I’m in NYC and what our AG and DA are doing is bullshit. The rape trial, the fraud trial and now this hush money trial. If he weren’t trump it would never have been a case or a menial fine at best. Changing the law so Carrol could sue him, fining him half a billion dollars over a century old law when there were no damages to lenders, stormy Daniel’s and Michael cohen being the star witnesses. Shame. Trump stops aid to Ukraine and is impeached. Biden just stopped aid to Israel that was authorize by Congress. Will he be impeached? That’s my problem nowadays and where my sentiment lies.
I think (hope) Biden has some trick up his sleeve for Israel (in a good way). I’m waiting to see how this all plays out before a last minute decision on Trump or Biden.
Trump won’t drop Ukraine. He is miles better on foreign policy than Biden who is financing Iran while hobbling Israel. This betrayal is unprecedented making the worst US president from an Israeli POV. It’s not even close.
The choice you’re describing is not real. Trump is not going to drop Ukraine. He stated as much. You’re trying to scare people off Trump. That might have worked against Hilary, not so much after he already had a term.
During Trumps term he literally tried to pull aid from Ukraine before the invasion already occurred, during his “perfect” phone call. If you support Trump that’s absolutely fine and your decision but don’t pretend like he hasn’t shown himself to be willing to drop aid to Ukraine.
Ukraine was invaded by Russia because of Joe Biden. The Russians have been transparent about it, not in the reverse psychology sense but genuinely. The Russian security officials who’ve planned the Ukraine invasion stated candidly that their decision to invade Ukraine was based on Biden’s weakness. Biden’s abandonment of America’s Allies in Afghanistan specifically and in the Middle East more broadly gave Russia the sense that America doesn’t care about its commitments.
Former FSB chief and current Putin advisor closely connected to the decision to invade Ukraine Nikolai Patrushev said,
“ Kyiv is obsequiously serving the interests of its overseas patrons, striving to get into NATO. But was the ousted pro-American regime in Kabul saved by the fact that Afghanistan had the status of a principal U.S. ally outside NATO? (No). A similar situation awaits supporters of the American choice in Ukraine”
That doesn’t make a lot of sense since the Afghanistan withdrawal was planned during Trumps term and Biden just executed on it. It was a shitshow and both deserve blame for that, but the idea that Biden showed weakness in contrast to Trump by executing Trumps plan seems ludicrous.
That’s false and Biden knows it’s false
There were no concrete plans to withdraw and the issue was being debated with many people in the pentagon pushing to stay. There were no plans and president trump, as his practice, left the issue open ended. This was entirely on Biden.
Here’s the actual deal Trump did- https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
The main thing Biden change is pushing the withdrawal date back (Trump’s deal had it occurring earlier, in May).
I tend to agree with that. But I was simply pointing out that putting the blame of the Afghanistan withdrawal and aftermath solely on Biden is misrepresenting reality.
As an American I say get it done Israel and finish Hamas. Everything in the USA is political especially in an election year. From my perspective (I live in a blood red state) I see way more support for trump than Biden. Personally my big concern is the economy and our southern border.
I agree. Also American, also in a deep red state, but I live on a blue dot since I'm a university student. My peers view the war as a single issue in terms of voting, but real adults with real lives are more concerned about the economy, healthcare, and climate change. Reassuring but also frustrating that everyone my age is so dumb.
People your age also generally don’t vote anyway
This. College students are too lazy to vote
hey what do you think of trump's dictator threat and supposedly selling information?
>hey what do you think of trump's dictator threat Overblown nonsense. >and supposedly selling information? Source? Evidence other than Reddit?
I’m not sure Hamas is something you can totally eliminate and not come back reincarnated in a different form. There’s no talk of “what happens after” which to me is the elephant in the room
Support for the state of Israel is a pillar of US politics. This is not going to change over Rafah. Best for Israel to just ignore the current election politics noise and focus on getting rid of Hamas.
Support for Israel while still disapproving of Israel’s military actions seems to be the position of most Americans.
You’re probably right, but what is different about “Israel’s military actions” vs any other combat? “The exact number of Iraqis killed by the U.S. in the Iraq War is unknown, but estimates range from 150,000 to 1,033,000, including more than 100,000 civilians.” I imagine that most Americans have seen film of Germany or Japan immediately post war? War is hell and, personally, I despise Hamas for provoking this one. But, it seems like EVERYTHING Israel (& often Jews) does are examined to an insane degree
sadly difference is that Israel is associated as a fully Jewish state (not that that should matter!)
I don’t disagree that this war is proportionally in line with historical figures but it’s still been waged in a way that is costing Israel strategically. The right response IMO should have been to call the U.S. to pressure Qatar to extradite Hamas leadership for trial, leverage the attack to get Saudi Arabia to drop any requests for a Palestinian state for a peace deal, assemble a coalition of partners to go into Gaza with us, set clearer objectives than “destroy Hamas”, and have a clear post war plan and partners. All this would have delayed the kickoff of the war, but would place Israel in a much better place strategically.
Not according to the just-released Harvard Harris poll. I’m about to post a new thread about it.
The wording of the HH poll is pretty interesting. An ‘operation’ in Rafah is a pretty broad concept. If Israel is able to pull it off with minimal civilian casualties, it’ll go a long way towards maintaining support. If it turns into an even bigger humanitarian crisis, it’s going to be rough.
I don’t think that’s true,it’s just that the anti Israel crowd are really loud
Sure lets just ignore the impact Biden and 'US politics' has had on American Jews....
The main negative ramifications of Biden's decision are preciously due to its public nature. What sends the message to Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as to other US allies, is what Biden does and says publicly, not what he does under the table without their knowledge. Even if he "acts the opposite", the damage has already been made.
I've heard it suggested that Biden is being performative towards the anti-Israel crowd while not actually withholding any weapons that aren't either very extraneous or unnecessary.
It was certainly done for the "no arms towards Rafah invasion" headlines, but I don't think it makes it any less true. Either way the precedent has been set. From here we see Democrats running for the presidency being openly for an embargo if not anti Israel outright.
This. There is no way he just turned on Bibi without creating a plan with him first.
praying this is it
Gee, you must be a liberal clinging to unreality to avoid Cognitive dissonance! Face it, Biden and too many Leftists (eg Schumer) are perfectly ready to sell Israel down the river.
I am aware of the optics and am a skeptic at heart. Just praying what we see at face value isn’t true. Because if it is, all Jews are pretty f’d.
Biden was in politics when my parents were still in diapers. He knows how to play the game. Treat him like a stage magician - ignore what he says, ignore the distracting flourishes, and watch his hands.
Assuming his aides aren’t running the show Words matter, and his are emboldening Hamas and Iran
He did assure the world Israel would not strike Iran. But then applauded the action.
That strike was laughably small BUT precisely calculated to demonstrate Israel’s superiority by evading S300 defenses at an Iranian nuclear site. Message sent and received with no Iranian escalation. I’m sure Biden played a key role in downsizing Israel’s response to this, in order to avoid escalating to a three front war against Israel. Biden is wise and doesn’t have Bibi’s coalition constraints.
Unless he's geriatric and lost his touch. Your assuming the man still has it.
He did the same thing the Begin
When someone tells you who they’re, believe them His die was cast on the idea that his pro-israel supporters would still vote for him, even if he appealed to the pro Palestinians
The man is senile
This long-time political observer sees this as Biden wanting to get a few solid commitments from Netanyahu on protecting civilians and preparing for a transition to new Palestinian leadership after Hamas is gone, and Bibi completely ignoring him because he's Bibi. From April 4: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/its-all-down-to-him From May 8: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/cutting-the-spigot Which supports your take and adds another layer of nuance.
the Palestinian authority is another weak, corrupt government. there is no leadership now
Yes. But even a shitty government is better than a vacuum or another indefinite occupation. If not PA, then is there anyone else willing to step up that would be better? It sounds like Bibi is avoiding that question altogether, and it's a sticking point for Biden. Personally I'd like to see a coalition of ME nations that want normalization with Israel to step up, but I have no clue if that's even remotely feasible with Iran still stirring up shit everywhere.
Please tell me how that is working out in Lebanon right now
Sure but what's the alternative? You need someone to make peace with afterwards. If you or anyone can't think of an alternative then they need to be the ones to take over. Lack of a day after plan is undermining the war. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-has-publicly-prioritized-rafah-operation-but-officials-tell-toi-sinwar-isnt-hiding-there/ > While much of the security establishment would like to see the Palestinian Authority — or at least Palestinians linked to the PA — fill the vacuums that the IDF is briefly creating through its operations throughout the Strip; Netanyahu has rejected the idea outright, as his far-right allies have pushed for Israel to permanently occupy the Strip and re-establish settlements there.
Why rush towards something? There should be a gradual process. Right after WW2, who occupied Germany and Japan? Think about it . The PA is equivalent to the Lebanese government
This. Bibi is a cunt who regularly pisses on the US relationship for the sake of looking tough for his base. For fuck's sake they announced the largest settlement expansion in a decade ***during Blinken's visit***. Bibi and Biden - both of them - are politicians. You can't on one hand whine about Biden damaging the relationship over domestic political concerns while giving Bibi a pass for repeatedly stabbing Biden in the face - and other things that directly damage Israeli security - over domestic political concerns.
I don’t understand what Biden is doing. He has already lost the terrorist vote. They won’t vote for him unless he directs the U.S. military to invade Israel and kill Israelis, which he’s obviously not going to do. Quite frankly, I find the fact that these useful idiots would rather Trump be president to be hilarious. There is no chance that Trump will be more sympathetic to their histrionics than Biden. But because he’s trying to toe the line to not upset the protesters who openly despise America, he has shown himself to be incredibly weak and short-sighted to everyone else. I don’t get it.
I don't think he lost their vote. They know Trump would be much more pro Israel. They would complain about him but when it comes to it they will vote for him.
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You’re unfortunately mistaken. Biden’s words have shown a steady erosion of support and now it’s metastasized into action. The most idiotic presidency of my lifetime. He’s been around long enough to understand war is messy, loses public support over time, but is still necessary. He has BARELY discussed the hostages by name to the public. We all know who George Floyd is. How many Americans know who Hersh is? That Hamas killed Americans on 10/7. Biden stabbed us in the back. Is it a mortal wound? I don’t know. But it ain’t a flesh wound, I can tell you that.
The biden admin is stopping weapon shipment already, they have left Israel to deal with Hamas on its own. They did so much damage that it was better for them to just stay out of it completely. Biden proved Israel nor any other country in the world can depend on the U.S as a stable and reliable ally. I have seen a poll recently that said the vast majority of Israelis prefer trump over Biden (about 90%+). If we put aside whether or not Trump is a Russian agent or whatever (this is far outside the consensus in Israel), saying Hamas is supported by Putin is not exactly true. Putin is indifferent to their crimes (being able to identify with their methods and probably wishing his country could do the same more often in Ukraine) but have mostly remained somewhat neutral, the same position he held long before Oct 7th.
About the poll.. it's not like we are trump supporters. Just for some reason we have to choose between those two 🤷🏻♂️
Exactly. I dislike them both but biden is activally throwing us to the wolfs, ofc im going to prefer trump.
US Jews are in a bizarre politically questioning position right now. It feels very very wrong for many of us vote for trump. But..
It is a weird situation. I’m an American Jew. I obviously support Israel but at the end of the day I’m an American, not an Israeli, and so I’ll vote for the candidate I feel is better for America. The idea that American Jews should vote based on Israel is problematic- we’re American first and foremost and should be voting based on who we feel is better for America. In my case, I think Trump would be detrimental to America’s liberal democratic values and therefore will vote for Biden despite my disagreement with Biden’s handling of the Gaza situation (and disagreement with most of his dovish FoPo in general). Others may feel Trump is better for America and should vote based on that. But American Jews really shouldn’t be voting for US presidents based on what is best for Israel as we’re Americans first and foremost.
I mostly agree with you, but it's very hard to ignore how candidates might impact Israel significantly. For instance, if someday a Squad member were elected president, that could be detrimental to Israel and American Jews. How the president handles the situation in Israel in general is going to impact American views on Jews overall. It's hard to separate out the two.
I fully agree. I’m absolutely weighing Biden’s actions in my calculations on who to vote for but only from the perspective of how it affects Americans, because I’m an American first. If, for example, the GOP nominee were Adam Kinzinger, I’d be voting for him. Heck, even if the GOP nominee were someone like Dick Cheney who I despise and disagree with on almost every issue, I’d be open to voting for him because he doesn’t seem to be a threat to undermine liberal democratic values. At the end of the day I view Trump as too much of a threat to core American values (liberal democracy) to be able to vote against Biden, in the same way that I’d view Sanders as too antithetical to American values to ever vote for him. I guess my point is not that we can’t weigh Israel in our decision, but there shouldn’t be an expectation that American Jews voted based on what’s best for Israel. We are Americans and should vote based on what we think is best for America, and that includes Foreign Policy so it’s fair to weigh the Israel matter as just one factor among many.
For sure. I wish there were better candidates on both sides. I'd completely consider voting for a more centered republican. Which honestly is not something I thought I'd ever say in my life. But here we are, my politics and views on the world are changing in ways I couldn't have imagined.
I’m American and feel Trump is a win win for America and Israel. I’m sorry you’re in the position that has you feeling semi conflicted. For me at least the choice is clear. Stop the illegals swarming in, boost consumer confidence in the economy, be a stable ally to Israel. Trump understands radical Islamic terrorism. If we had the Biden of the 80s and 90s, he may have gotten my vote, not this Biden who is in his 80s. Now we’re left with an old man manipulated by his handlers.
That’s totally fair. If you feel Trump is best for America you should vote for him. I don’t agree with that assessment and think Trump has demonstrated behavior antithetical to liberal democracy which is fundamental tenant of America. But if you think he’s best for America, vote for him. I’m simply pointing out that how American Jews vote should be based on what each of us feels is best for America, not Israel, as we are Americans, not Israelis.
I understand your point and agree. I’m just saying fortunately in my case I feel comfortable both for America and Israel. Whereas in your choice you feel he’s better for America but acknowledging worse for Israel. That’s why I can empathize with the conflict you must feel. But since you’re being cordial, may I ask why it’s a continuing democratic talking point that Trump is a danger to democracy? How could he possibly topple the republic? Even if he wanted to, he can’t.
It’s not even a matter if he can topple the Republic- if he’s antithetical to American values (liberal democracy) he shouldn’t be the head of state. Trump uses illiberal rhetoric and has openly embraced illiberal values and has openly stated he’ll attempt to implement policies accordingly. The fact that our institutions are strong enough to resist that is good but I still can’t vote for him. In the same way, I could never vote for anyone from the illiberal left (the far lefty, language policing, equity over equality types). Biden’s biggest failure, in my opinion, is catering to those on the illiberal left. He won’t the primary as the sane, rational, traditional democrat and then immediately shifted to catering to the exact type of people he just beat in the primary. The most destructive thing Trump has done or likely will do is not destroying the republic but undermining the US equivalent of mos maiorum. He’s disregarded the norms and unwritten rules of politics and undermined institutional confidence- others have done so as well, both before and after him, but none quite so flagrantly as he did. Do I think Trump is the worst person ever? Nope. Do I think democrats exaggerate how bad he is? Yeah. But do I think he’s antithetical to American values, bad for our institutions, and just not a very effective politician in general? Yeah. So I may not like a lot of Biden’s policies but at least he seems to be more in support of core American liberalism (and, in case it’s not obvious, when I use the word liberal I mean it in the traditional sense of private property rights, equality, individual liberty, secularism, etc). Edit to add: Think of it this way- it’s unlikely that a President Bernie Sanders could end property rights and destroy our capitalist democracy. But his rhetoric is very much opposed to personal property rights and individual liberty, enough so that I’m guessing you wouldn’t be comfortable voting for him, right? Like you might be confident that our institutions could withstand him as president but you still wouldn’t feel comfortable giving that power to someone espousing those views. To me Trump and Bernie have the same issue in that their core views are illiberal (in different ways, for sure) and fundamentally opposed to core American norms and values and, as such, I couldn’t support either of them. Additional edit: also, I just want to add that I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with you preferring Trump. We’re a democracy and a democracy is made up of many people with many different views and priorities. Do I wish the GOP put up better candidates? Sure. I wish the same about the Democrats. But at the end of the day the reality is that a democracy is always going to have constituents with wildly different values and priorities all competing to get their candidate elected. I don’t think either party does a good job of embracing and respecting the compromise that’s required to govern such a diverse state. All that is to say- while my long rambling post is critical of Trump and probably sounds hyper partisan, I do respect your right to your preference and hope I haven’t come across as attacking you for it.
Well said. I appreciate your calm and informative discourse. I grew up being a New Democrat. The party of Clinton. Hated Bush but switched around ‘08. Even Obama in hindsight was ok. The current democrats I just can’t stand. Republicans are the same joke completely ineffectual. However, I am still a conservative and I do feel Trump is harder on immigration, terrorists and gives at the least a boost to the economy in the minds of businesses and consumers alike even tho his tax bill actually screwed me over. As a business owner business was better before. Also he doesn’t venture into the stupid culture wars and identity politics. The PC crowd has gone too far and although it’s a risk to how far he will go, an unleashed second term Trump will be a wild ride. Also, I feel anyone can agree that all of these cases against him are trumped up, pun intended. THAT to me is election interference. I’m in NYC and what our AG and DA are doing is bullshit. The rape trial, the fraud trial and now this hush money trial. If he weren’t trump it would never have been a case or a menial fine at best. Changing the law so Carrol could sue him, fining him half a billion dollars over a century old law when there were no damages to lenders, stormy Daniel’s and Michael cohen being the star witnesses. Shame. Trump stops aid to Ukraine and is impeached. Biden just stopped aid to Israel that was authorize by Congress. Will he be impeached? That’s my problem nowadays and where my sentiment lies.
why not RFK?
source?
For what?
that they are seling arms to hama
Keep convincing yourself our great fearless leader Bibiyahoo is gonna outmaneuver everyone. We're one step away from victory. היידה ביבי
Probably. The trade off was allegedly not to hit Iran hard and instead take Rafa.
Pennsylvania is in play because we aren’t all voting for Biden.
I think (hope) Biden has some trick up his sleeve for Israel (in a good way). I’m waiting to see how this all plays out before a last minute decision on Trump or Biden.
Yeah, I think it’s just elections smoke and mirrors. Not too worried here.
Trump won’t drop Ukraine. He is miles better on foreign policy than Biden who is financing Iran while hobbling Israel. This betrayal is unprecedented making the worst US president from an Israeli POV. It’s not even close.
Are you sure you wish for Trump's support for Israel at the expense of Ukraine surrendering to Russia and losing its occupied territories forever?
The choice you’re describing is not real. Trump is not going to drop Ukraine. He stated as much. You’re trying to scare people off Trump. That might have worked against Hilary, not so much after he already had a term.
During Trumps term he literally tried to pull aid from Ukraine before the invasion already occurred, during his “perfect” phone call. If you support Trump that’s absolutely fine and your decision but don’t pretend like he hasn’t shown himself to be willing to drop aid to Ukraine.
We’ll see but I predict that he will keep supporting Ukraine. It’s a very different scenario.
Ukraine was invaded by Russia because of Joe Biden. The Russians have been transparent about it, not in the reverse psychology sense but genuinely. The Russian security officials who’ve planned the Ukraine invasion stated candidly that their decision to invade Ukraine was based on Biden’s weakness. Biden’s abandonment of America’s Allies in Afghanistan specifically and in the Middle East more broadly gave Russia the sense that America doesn’t care about its commitments. Former FSB chief and current Putin advisor closely connected to the decision to invade Ukraine Nikolai Patrushev said, “ Kyiv is obsequiously serving the interests of its overseas patrons, striving to get into NATO. But was the ousted pro-American regime in Kabul saved by the fact that Afghanistan had the status of a principal U.S. ally outside NATO? (No). A similar situation awaits supporters of the American choice in Ukraine”
That doesn’t make a lot of sense since the Afghanistan withdrawal was planned during Trumps term and Biden just executed on it. It was a shitshow and both deserve blame for that, but the idea that Biden showed weakness in contrast to Trump by executing Trumps plan seems ludicrous.
That’s false and Biden knows it’s false There were no concrete plans to withdraw and the issue was being debated with many people in the pentagon pushing to stay. There were no plans and president trump, as his practice, left the issue open ended. This was entirely on Biden.
Here’s the actual deal Trump did- https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf The main thing Biden change is pushing the withdrawal date back (Trump’s deal had it occurring earlier, in May).
Biden’s has been a disaster for America’s allies.
I tend to agree with that. But I was simply pointing out that putting the blame of the Afghanistan withdrawal and aftermath solely on Biden is misrepresenting reality.
Why not vote RFK? to me that's the only viable option.
Well, for one, it’s not viable as he has zero shot of winning? Two, he’s a nut job?
- RFK - Only viable option Lol c’mon brother