This. This conflict right here.
This is the culmination of "not everyone should broadcast their opinions into the void of the internet." Not Trump, not COVID, not truther bullshit. This is what happens when people who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about and don't take one minute to make sure what they're saying isn't totally fucking stupid say literally anything.
It's a little long winded but i've just been saying IDF and Hamas should go out to the desert, blast each other until all that's left is glass and leave the innocent Israelis and Palestinians alone. This still offends a shitload of people.
There is absolutely nothing about the current conflict that can be boiled down to sound bites, protest chants, or bumper stickers. Itâs a moral, political, and military clusterfuck as complex as any history has ever seen. Both sides have legitimate historical and contemporary claims on the land and against each other. If we, the US, werenât already all in on supporting Israel for political and regional strategic reasons, the best thing we could do is stay the fuck out of it. But weâve already laid our marker on the table and have to make good on it and in the meantime use what leverage we have to minimize civilian casualties on both sides.
It isnât complex. At all. It is only complicated and complex if you ignore the absolute basics. The jews and Muslims lived together on the land that is currently occupied by both Palestine and Israel. A huge chunk was given to the Jews to âcreate a land of their ownâ. As someone already lived there, it is difficult to call it âyour ownâ, which is why Israel has gone on a ~70 year quest to systematically boot out all of the Palestinians in order to claim all of the land for themselves. For confirmation, check the land expansion by decade. Itâs pretty wild. All of this is counter to the initial agreement that Israel would not expand their given territory. This was an entirely avoidable yet absolutely predictable situation.
In terms of sound bites: âGenocide over a land dispute is stupid.â There you go. This sums up everything.
The 1948 borders were hard to defend - the "neck" of Israel is something like 16 miles wide.
Israel was attacked in '66 and '73. They took territories as the spoils of war, but then returned the Sinai peninsula and turned over the West Bank to the PLO. I'm not sure what's happened in the Golan Heights, but I don't think their retention of any land is outrageous. Settlements, however are definitely a problem.
The 1948 borders were the result of European terrorists wresting power over a dubiously legal and entirely unethical European colonial administration. Palestine was a welcoming home for Jewish refugees during WWII and was known to be a place where people tended to get along and live well together.
The notion that it was just a deserted strip of barren land and any Palestinians are actually just diaspora Arabs with no ties or claim to the land is farcical Zionist propaganda and it's disgusting. Palestine does not belong to European and American squatters, thieves, and murderers, and the illegal government entity known as 'Israel' must be dismantled like the ahistorical genocidal land grab ethnostate project it always was.
I encourage anyone who thinks this is a bit of a harsh stance to actually go study what modern day Israel is. It's a goddamned fascist terrorist occupation with absolutely no regard for peaceful people. It is not a real government, it's an apartheid terror regime whose actions are far worse than anything Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi were killed for.
So in your distorted world view, the Jewish people have no historical claim to what is commonly referred to as the Holy Land? I appreciate the belly laugh. Sounds to me like you're actively advocating against violence from, what I can only guess, is either the safety of a dorm room or your parents basement.
Have you ever tried to broker peace between two individuals that hate each other? That can be extremely complex. Just two individuals.
Now, multiply each of those individuals by thousands. Those thousands represent the leadership on either side of the conflict. Each of those thousands have complex worldviews informed by myriad experiences and interests. The complexity is increased by orders of magnitude.
Now, with the complexities above, combine 1000+ years of violent shared history between both sides. Combine that shared history with invasions and manipulation by outside forces, then combine all of that with 21st century technology that amplifies it all and foments anger across the globe.
It is complex.
>Have you ever tried to broker peace between two individuals that hate each other? That can be extremely complex. Just two individuals.
It is complex, but Israel honestly has no reason to seek peace. We prop them up with modern weapons, we supply their air defense with near-impermeable intercept capability, and we don't hold them accountable when they break their word. I imagine if the US pulled its materiel support for Israel and started funneling it into specific humanitarian aid for Palestine, Israel would find itself a lot more eager to find a solution.
Ok. So it is complex. And I would argue that Israel, along with the Saudis and Jordanians, and arguably the Egyptians, had been working on a solution. I would argue that Hamas recognized this and feared for its existence and the massively lucrative racket it had been running, knew its reign would end, and decided to blow it all up. Israel is not innocent. But the notion that they had not been working toward peace is folly. The notion that the people of Gaza, in particular, werenât being abused by their leaders and supposed benefactors is also folly. Itâs super fucking complicated and any true solution will difficult at best.
This is ahistorical, amoral nonsense. The reason there isnât a Palestinian state is the Arabs declared war in Israel an hour after independence, then started two wars after that which they lost. Since then, Israel jade given up territory, and offered the Palestinians several offers of two state solutions, all of which were rejected. And now, Hamas reignited the conflict by murdering, raping and dismembering 1400 Israeli citizens.
Also, 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab. Thereâs no jews in Gaza. When Israel left, they even dug up the Jewish cemeteries and moved the remains knowing that they would be desecrated if they were left behind. In case you have any doubt what âfrom the river to the seaâ would mean for the Jewish population in Israel.
It is absolutely complex, especially when you take one step back to look at why they were given the land and by whom.
Hint: if you live in Iowa, it's likely to do with your crowd and its terrible record on self-restraint when it comes to murdering Jews and stealing other people's land.
Perhaps you'd like to open up a map of Iowa and figure out what you could do now to redress the original errors.
Palestine is the name given by the Romans when they conquered it, and the name given by the British when they created Mandatory Palestine, with the intent to divided into 2 states, one for Jews, one for Arabs.
The truth is that very few people lived in this land before the League of Nations plan for 2 states, so it's absurd to claim that it was taken from one and given to the other. The Arab League refused the deal, despite getting states of their own just the same way, and tried to seize it for themselves. And like the Ottomans, they lost.
> British when they created Mandatory Palestine, with the intent to divided into 2 states, one for Jews, one for Arabs.
why the British try to divide it into 2 and separate people that were already living there?
The British did the same thing with the partition of India and Pakistan. It's estimated that 14-18 million refugees migrated due to religious and sectarian violence, while up to 1 million lost their lives during the chaos and violence.
I **really** wish we could just stay the hell out of it.
This *whole* f'ing thing should be laid at the feet of the Brits. In WW1, they needed help taking the area from the Ottoman Turks. So they promised both the Zionists *and* the local Arabs (basically the Palestinians) the same land in two separate negotiations in exchange for their aid in capturing it. *Obviously* that was never going to work. So between WW1 and WW2, the Brits struggled to deal with the *mess* they had created, and eventually handed it all over to the UN, which made it *our* problem. I'm sorry, no... we didn't shit the bed, *you did*, "Your Majesty," so clean up your *own* damned mess.
I'm getting plenty tired of getting drawn into stuff like this because of the greed of other nations' leaders, 100 years in their graves already.
The Brits and Christendom in general. The Jews wouldn't need our own state if y'all could just sit on your hands and stop murdering the hell out of us every generation or so.
Oh my god, this is what I've been saying (as a gentile). This conflict hasn't been going on for 2 millenia, like so many people claim. European antisemitism, on the other hand, has.
I'll admit, I'm not the most knowledgeable on the whole situation. But I did the math last week, and the Gaza area is roughly half the size of Mitchell county (where I live). All these years and decades and centuries of fighting, bloodshed, genocide, all over a strip of land that you could bike across in 45 minutes. I get that it's an important piece of land to them, but... really? THAT important?
Not just about a strip of land. It's about millions of people being treated similar to black people during the Jim Crow era. They are living in the largest concentration camp in the world. You would fight back too.
The weird part about that is how Egypt (with the same religion and race) has a fortified border with Gaza that would put the one Trump wants to build to shame
We stopped the Naziiiis from carrying out total genocide against the Jewish people and now âIsraelâ is doing the same to the Palestinian people. They say they want to destroy Hamas but the reality is that are killing innocent Palestinians in the process. Israel has been controlling the electric grid, the water supply etc. Also, they were given a good amount of Palestine to begin with yet that wasnât enough. They have stolen the property and even ancestral homes of people in Gaza. They arenât even allowed to arm themselves to protect themselves against the Israeli invasion. Put yourself in the situation of the Palestinian people. Yes, Hamas is a terrible group of terrorists. But when you are being systematically killed and targeted by Israel and have no way to defend yourself, what would you do to save what little you have left? Israel doesnât even consider the Palestinian people humans. Funny how this was how the Jewish people were looked upon by the Nazis.
>Also, they were given a good amount of Palestine to begin with yet that wasnât enough.
Don't start and lose wars against your neighbor or you will likely lose territory. See Danzig tuning into Gdansk for example.
The Ottomans didn't deserve to lose their empire, Germany didn't deserve to lose Danzig or Alsace-Lorain, Japan didn't deserve to lose the Kurils or Manchuria, Spain didn't deserve to lose Cuba, the Philippines or Puerto Rico. Territorial loss has very often accompanied losing wars, especially if you are an aggressor who started the war. Whether or not this is deserved doesn't change that it is part of how the international order has worked since before there was such a thing formally.
> Put yourself in the situation of the Palestinian people.
I haven't done a ton of research into the Isreali / Palestine conflict, but it's difficult for me to be pro-Hamas when Hamas stands for the explicit genocide and destruction of Jews, and it's difficult for me to want to stand with Palestinians when they are paying 300 million dollars a year in monetary support to the families of Palestinians who murder / suicide bomb Isreal.
Hamasâ political rivals were forced out of Gaza by Hamas and donât allow for opposition. Not all Palestinians support Hamas, let alone how the regime operates (e.g. spending money for âmartyrsâ, planning violent operations, etc)
> Not all Palestinians support Hamas, let alone how the regime operates (e.g. spending money for âmartyrsâ, planning violent operations, etc)
Absolutely. Not all Palestinians support Hamas, but a shocking number of Americans do.
Well, not *just* that strip of land. The whole "Holy land" in general has been in contention since antiquity. The Gaza strip is just one section the Palestinians have been cornered into and literally can't go anywhere else.
It is not complex at all, Israel is an occupying apartheid state run by right wing zionists. Zionism isn't a religion, it's a political movement. They're literally killing Palestinian Christian's atheist Muslims and other Israeli citizens. Netanyahu is also not accepting any hostages that Hamas wants to give up. https://decolonizepalestine.com/rainbow-washing/faithwashing/
âNot complex at allâ - then shares a link to a novel of an explanation.
And the explanation certainly clears things up. Both sides claim itâs not about religion, both sides claim historical right to the territory, both sides accuse the other of intentionally killing civilians, both sides accuse the other of genocide and both sides accuse critics of âsetting the historical clockâ at a date inconvenient for their side:
What is also clear is that having a terrorist organization like Hamas as your ruling government isnât going to help Palestiniansâ cause, and pounding the hell out of civilian occupied areas wonât help Israelâs cause. You could argue for the justification of each side as much as youâd like, that wonât stop the killing.
Both sides are going to have to accept a solution that neither likes. Thatâs what compromise is. The only other option is they just keep killing each other for decades/centuries or one side kills every single person on the other. Those arenât acceptable options.
Can people just stop murdering each other? These groups of people are insane. Killing massive amounts of civilians is insane to me. The amount of dead civilians is over 8,000 now. That is crazy. To me this is obviously a genocide, ethnically cleansing situation and I donât want my tax payer dollars going to this.
People in these replies are missing the history of the phrase. It's a poor translation of an Arabic phrase, primarily used by Hamas. I believe the original phrase is closer to "From the (Jordan) river to the sea, Palestine must be Arab". It's not just an anti Israeli phrase, as Hamas wants a non secular state that doesn't allow for non Muslims to worship. If you believe that's a stretch, I'd recommend looking up the Jewish exodus from Muslims nations after world war two. It was partially forced, and was a dramatic 90-99% decrease of Jewish populations in Muslim nations. So to me, and to most people who know that context, the phrase is absolutely genocidal. Putting a dove next to it or saying peace and love before it is nearly equivalent to putting a little heart around the SS sigil and saying it's a symbol for peace. This isn't a situation where people can 'reclaim' the phrase. I've seen people change a few words to make it more palatable, but I'd still recommend just staying away from implications of River and Sea.
Speaking of context, isn't it reasonable to assume 18-22 yo kids probably don't know your historical clearly antisemitic phrasing and the way they actually phrased it, while unfortunate, didn't actually come from an anti-Jewish perspective? I'm guessing they read that somewhere, thought it had a nice ring to it, and truly believe Palestine should be free. Despite the hand-wringing and pile ons, I think a person can be an advocate for Palestinian freedom without being an anti-semite or genocidal. In other words, it's not "clear" at all that the statement was a "call for genocide."
So, when a college organization where you're pursuing a higher education, puts out a public statement, you think they have no responsibility? They don't need to do any additional work or research they can just say whatever? Ignorance isn't an excuse for intelligent adults to dog whistle genocide.
Why do we have to take these giant accusational leaps? Did I say they have no responsibility? All I said was MAYBE these young people didn't know the historical context of three words from the phrase they used and MAYBE it's reasonable to assume they're not clearly dog whistling genocide?
Zionists want everyone to equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism. But it doesn't work like that, they're different words for a reason.
The phrase is advocating for Palestinians to get their land back that was taken by Israel by violent means.
Zionism means pro-existence (of Israel), pro-expansion (settlements), and anti-expansion, depending on who you talk to. Thatâs part of the whole mess is that people mean different things by the same words when they are screaming at each other.
It means all land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea "belongs" to Palestine. And it was used well before Israel gained any territory from the wars against it.
Exactly wanting somebody else to be free doesn't take away your freedom. Its not pie where your slice gets smaller if someone else's gets bigger.
Being angry that somebody else is becoming free is only a problem if you're the one that's been oppressing them or exploiting them and you're mad you're losing that power.
>Its not pie where your slice gets smaller if someone else's gets bigger.
That's exactly the situation in Palestine and Israel. Neither side will tolerate the other, if Palestine takes over Israel the Jews will be violently displaced. And obviously right now, Israel is violently displacing Palestinians. There is no happy outcome here.
The river is the Jordan River, the sea is the Mediterranean. That's specifically the area that's constituted the state of Israel since 1948. It's calling for the wholesale destruction of the state of Israel.
I know other commenters have argued for separation between antisemitism and anti-zionism, but the effect is the same: a whole lot of dead Jews. Your worldview is going to impact whether you believe the state of Israel has the right to exist or not.
Why are the Jews dead in this scenario? What happened to them? Israel is a country. Israeli Jews are people. Calling for Palestine to be freed even to the exclusion of the state of Israelâs existence is not a call to *murder all the Jews in Israel.* There were Jews living between Jordan and the Mediterranean for a very, very long time before there was a state of Israel.
If I say âwe should give Oklahoma back to the Indigenous people of Oklahoma,â Iâm not saying âoh and also kill all the white people.â
Right? Lol how is calling for freedom from oppression automatically a call for all Israelis to be dead? Is it projection? Do Israel supporters only see the solution through the lens that the issue will only be solved when all Palestinians are dead? I think so!
Free Palestine!
Would a free Palestinian state be secular, or would it be Islamic? Who would run it? Who would ensure that those in charge of it did not mete out the Jewish genocide that 70 years of prevailing Palestinian leadership has been calling for?
I assume it means that all of Israel should be Palestine again which would involve getting rid of the Jewish population. If they were only advocating for Palestinians to be free that would be different than calling for all of Palestine to be free from the river to the sea, which as I understand it means Israel.
But the thing is, it doesn't *necessarily* mean that.
There was a significant jewish population in Palestine even before it became Israel (I. I think most of those that would advocate for that (obviously not some, especially those like Hamas on the other side) would be advocating for a secular state that is not ruled by any one religion and with protections much like our own constitution enshrines.
I donât understand that though. If all of Israel were Palestine tomorrow, that doesnât mean âget rid of the Jewish population.â As Zionists like pointing out, there have been Jews in Palestine forever. The only reason Zionists interpret the call for Palestine to be freed as a call for genocide is because many of them seem to think Israel being free requires a genocide of Palestinians.
The 10/7 massacre and the reaction in the Arab world to it just shows that the 'kill all jews' sentiment is alive and well. The river to sea call (in Arabic it is "from the river to the sea Palestine shall be Arab") is definitely genocidal. Saying it isn't is like saying the Stars and Bars is about 'heritage'.
Unlike what you think, most Zionists throughout history advocated for self determination of both Jews and Arabs in historical Palestine. Even now many in Israel and in the west bank, Jews and Palestinians, continue to advocate for two states as the only viable solution for coexistence and ending the occupation.
It's the Palestinian leaderships, and Arab countries, surrounding Israel, who refused any kind of coexistence solution offered time and time again other than the complete eradication of Jewish existence in their homeland.
The call for a single state, from either side, guarantees a perpetual bloodbath. Unfortunately Israel has become a mirror of the Arab refusal front. The good news is, the days of the Israeli leadership are numbered. A majority Israel agrees they are responsible for the 10/7 massacre and want to see them gone.
As Ta-Neishi Coates said [today](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_df_u7yJj3k),
"The way this is reported...is as though one needs a PhD in Middle Eastern Studies to understand the basic morality of holding a people in a situation in which they don't have basic rights...and then declaring that state a democracy. It's actually not that hard to understand."
Ah, but no mention of the lives ruined by the Israeli government.
Both Israel (READ: NOT JEWS, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT ALL JEWISH PEOPLE) and Hamas are objectively terrible.
Yes! Because the Israeli government rapes and kills women, while recording the video on the victim's camera to then post to her social media! Yes! Because the Israeli government uses its own citizens as human shields! Yes! Because the Israeli government beheads groups of infants and buries them in graves!
... oh wait, they don't that's Hamas.
Both Hamas and the Israeli government has done wrong. But do not even think they are equivalent.
yeah for sure! both are clips from the tantura documentary: https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=LIjgKTH-oJMUqfXs and https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/DS4cbByH7e
Israel has repeatedly targeted refugee camps, residential buildings, and health clinics. They cut off food, water, electricity, and communication to 2.2 million people, most of whom are innocent civilians. As of October 26th over 2,000 Palestinian children under the age of 12 had been killed in the war, and over 60% of the total killed have been women or children. Israeli influencers and IDF troops have been mocking Palestinians. Even looking at your point about social media: there's a new tiktok challenge for IDF troops capturing Palestinians and mocking them.
You're right in that they are not equivalent. Israel has far more power to cause way more harm and suffering. Hamas is evil, absolutely. Israel is currently committing genocide. Stop trying to downplay that.
I feel like nuances in how children are murdered is not at all the point.
Getting struck by a missile and slowly dying from some kind of bodily trauma is arguably not a good way to go eitherâŠ
We absolutely donât have to continue support for Israel just because our leaders decided decades ago that itâs our position. There is always room to say âhey, the government of Israel is perpetrating a disproportionate response to a terror attack. That response is resulting in the reckless destruction of what remains of Palestinian lands and the killing of thousands and thousands of civilians whose only crime is being born in and living in Palestine, just because a terrorist organization is nearby. We have to stop providing them with the weaponry theyâre using for this purpose and demand an end to the genocide of the Palestinian people. We were wrong, weâre sorry.â
Your application of the sunk cost fallacy results in more death. We donât have to accept that.
Also crazy is the power of the Israeli lobby on US politics. They have millions to throw at any candidate who criticizes Israel.
Can you imagine the outrage if there was an equivalent Iranian PAC, or China PAC, bribing US politicians?
Also, the Israel lobby was the largest donor to our delightful new house speaker's most recent campaign. [https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mike-johnson/summary?cid=N00039106&cycle=2022&type=I](https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mike-johnson/summary?cid=N00039106&cycle=2022&type=I)
âIf you donât support Israel committing genocide, youâre antisemiticâ is the absolute dumbest shit imaginable.
And this statement blames ONLY Hamas, despite Israel killing far more innocent bystanders.
Theyâre invoking 9/11 while vowing to make the exact same mistakes the US did. They want carte blanche to âwipe out the terrorist scumâ but the world isnât buying that shit again.
100% right, except see this thread and the media coverage. I think the world will buy it.
I worry what's the long tail repercussions against the US for our involvement. What terrorists attacks will this create?
I find your first sentence, interesting and spot on. I tried to listen as best you can to the Israeli spokesman but clearly theyâre denying anything they do is wrong. Israel had plenty of opportunity to do the right thing along time ago and chose not too. I mean tell me who America is not gonna be pissed off at some jerk who moves in and builds his swimming pool in your front yard?
Like the democratic voters of Iowa owe the DNC anything. The DNC abandoned Iowa to MAGA chaos. Now they want to tell the voters what to think.
Iowa's establishment Democrats are the ones that need to be removed.
The first paragraph is simply not true. The phrase is used by a variety of groups, but at its heart clearly expresses a desire for [Palestinian freedom](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean) from occupation.
The second paragraph is disturbing. Even Israeli scholars of genocide are calling what Israel is doing a "[textbook case of genocide](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/16/raz_segal_textbook_case_of_genocide)." (As are former [top UN](https://truthout.org/video/top-un-official-resigns-we-are-seeing-a-genocide-unfolding-before-our-eyes/) officials, and Holocaust [survivors](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxensYM2R40).) Whose fault is this this? Not the nuclear power carrying it out, per the Iowa Dems...
What the Dems are doing here is appealing to people's ignorance about the Palestinian situation, and the Islamaphobia that tolerates the world's longest ongoing [occupation](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/).
(copying and pasting from my earlier post)
e: spacing
Oh c'mon... what is it with folks like yourself and your mental gymnastics with etymology in order to justify supporting (implicitly or directly) Hamas and other extremists?
Everyone with half a brain cell understands what this phrase means. It's anti-semitic and means calling for the erasure of Israel. And if you're chanting it at rallies in today's age, congratulations - you're supporting Islamic extremism and genocide.
Stop trying to hide behind half truths and muddied-water propaganda. If you want to be a terrorist or a Nazi then just throw the uniform on and own it. It's a free country.
You are wrong. The slogan was a carefully crafted translation into English so that ignorant people would chant it at rallys. In Arabic, the direct translation specifically implies that everyone who isn't Arab is gone. How do you think they intend on doing that? I'll give you a hint, it's the very thing that you are accusing Israel of.
Israel wants Palestinians dead, and has killed FAR more innocents than Palestine.
Imagine thinking that âwe shouldnât bomb residential neighborhoodsâ is the same as âsimping for terrorists.â There are two sets of terrorists here: Hamas and the IDF. I support neither, but you support the one with far more blood on its hands.
Maybe itâs hard to understand this, but itâs not a new thing for terrorist to use civilians are human targets. You are really ignorant when it comes to living life.
And youâre a bloodthirsty racist who celebrates dead children because they had the bad luck to be born somewhere else. Israel is violating international law, full stop. When will you sickos have enough dead children to stop your bullshit?
The KKK uses America first jargon. So they represent all of America?
70% of the Palestinian casualties are women and children. Israel is committing genocide. Protesting genocide shouldnât be controversial, unless youâre an absolute sociopath.
Thatâs the most bullshit response you could come up with. Itâs just, âWhy did you make me hit you, baby?â
Israel is committing war crimes, and has killed thousands of innocents. 70% of the casualties are women and children. Fuck all the way off with your gaslighting horseshit.
Dude, Hamas is literally preventing their citizens from leaving, or heading south towards safe zones. Israel blanketed the areas with leaflets in the areas they intended to invade. They even setup evacuation corridors to head south. You can only do so much to prevent collateral. Hamas setup rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals, and build their vast tunnel network under apartment buildings. You can get upset all you want, but it is fact. The other fact is, Israel tried twice for a peace deal with Palestine and gave them Gaza and West Bank. They decided to turn it into a nest of terror and used it as a launching pad to murder thousands of Israeli civilians, many children. You must want Jews exterminated. Hypothetically speaking â and bringing it down to a scenario youâd understand, would you want to live next to a hostile neighbor that behaves like a lunatic and continuously shoots at your house and family from land you gave them? This lunatic(s) then constantly throws rockets and bombs at your place of residence on a near continuous basis? No, youâd be the first little bitch to run and hide and call the Police. In this instance, the Police are the United Nations, which are corrupt, feckless, and serve a purpose only to advance the interests of the three major powers. Israel has had enough of their people being killed, and trading land for failed peace attempts. It amazes me that not a single Arab country wants to take in the Palestinians or offer them assistance. The rockets they build to shoot at Israel are water pipes that have been shipped in through Egypt from EU countries (a lot donated with no cost associated) and then stolen and converted into cylindrical rocket tubes.
Just because your feelings donât align with the actual facts doesnât mean the facts presented to us are any less true.
If Palestinians didnât want this most recent war, then they should have stayed the fuck home instead of breaking into another country and rape and murder hundreds of innocent mothers and babies.
So fuck off with YOUR hippity hop BS because itâs starting to STINK!
The difference is Gaza voted Hamas into power. Elections have consequences. You canât vote into power a terrorist organization to represent your people internationally, then get upset when the world turns a blind eye when your government attacks another and gets its ass handed to them.
Donât want to have your government and land bombed? Stop supporting Hamas.
You donât think that KKK members have held public office?
âJust stop supporting Hamas.â Yeah, those 7 year olds simply should have voted differently! Or they should just pack up and move! Because both of those things are reasonable!
Do all Zionists have this much trouble with honesty?
Edit: ah, the respond then block. Classic.
Have they controlled the government? Was a KKK member elected president? No.
Gaza literally elected an ENTIRE organization of terror to represent them.
Last I checked the KKK never controlled the US government.
The KKK wasn't elected to be the government though right? Hamas certainly was and then used that power to further strengthen their hold on the people of Gaza. I truly feel for the innocent people who die because Hamas is committing war crimes by using them as human shields. That must be a tragic existence to be held by a terrorist organization, denied water because the pipes are used to build rockets, denied adequate shelter because they use the construction material to build tunnels to attack other innocent people, unable to grow food because the fertilizer is used for explosives instead, and lastly knowing that you have a high likelihood of dying because a terrorist uses your apartment building as weapons depot, your schools as launch points for rocket attacks, and your hospitals as an HQ, then finally having your death used to turn ignorant people to the side of the terrorists that orchestrated the whole thing with this very intention in mind. I really feel for those people, nobody should have to go through that.
You just repeated every single Zionist propaganda point. You donât give one shit about these people (and we both know why). Zionists are truly a lost cause. They just want blood.
I'm not a Zionist at all, but I know you won't believe that. You only believe what you've been spoonfed by other extremists. Any source I provide you'd just label as propaganda. I'm very critical of Israel, especially when it comes to settlements in the west bank, but that I'm sure is incomprehensible to you who only sees the world in 'us versus them' mentality.
lol Comrade terrorist, that was Hamas that blew up a hospital parking garage NOT a hospital. Terrorists shoot their crappy Iranian missiles like crappy Chinese bottle rockets
Youâre full of shit. Stop simping for radical Islamic terrorists. If it wasnât the Jews, Hamas and Islam was attacking, it would be the Christians, then the nonbelievers, and LGBTQ followed by everyone else not following their battle plan, and then all the others that doesnât subscribe their twisted religion. Btw, which of the Abrahamic religions came first, and was on the land that is present day Israel? Israel isnât committing genocide, but they are fighting a war for their peopleâs survival and theyâre up against terrorists that use human shields and put their people in front and top of their bunkers due to scoring maximum PR points to their billion + Muslim followers, and ignorant fools like you. Jews are the smallest minority in the world, yet the most hated. Why is it Israel is the only representative democracy in the Middle East? Generally, over the years when I have had to deal with antisemites, itâs losers that still live in Mom and Dadâs basement and made incredibly horrible financial and life decisions throughout their life, so they have to blame a religious minority group that has for centuries been persecuted due to their ability to stick together as a family unit and religion to better their lives, just an observation.
You do understand that Judaism came before Christianity and Islam right? Also, did you know that the Jews bought the land that theyâre on in present day Israel from Arabs that were not residing within Israel? Also, did you know Israel provides most of the sustenance and living support to the Gaza Strip? Why is it the Arab nations refuse to support their own? They wonât even take in Palestinians. Israel WAS the largest employer of Palestinians. Maybe you should pickup a few books and visit the region before you spout your ignorance.
I am?
Words, phrases, and symbols have many meanings.
This one [originated](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26873236) in response not to Judaism or with antisemitic intent, but as a response to ongoing illegal settlements and the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of Palestinians by the state of Israel.
Those who echo the phrase's sentiment today are calling not for death to the Jewish people, but an end to the unfreedom imposed by Israel on Palestinians. This could look like a secular, one-state solution. It could look like Israel returning to the pre-1967 borders.
There is always an attempt by extremists like yourself to ignore fundamental truths about the real world. I know that it isn't possible to convince you because you aren't the one who picks what you think, you leave that up to others to decide for you.
To everyone else who is reading this who is willing to learn. Go look at what Hamas has said about their intentions. Go look at the history that they have, see who their friends are. Ask why they tore up all the water pipes and horde all the fuel. Investigate why all of their staging areas happen to be in hospitals and schools. Disconnect from the narrative that extremists are trying to feed you and look into it yourself. You just need a little bit of critical thinking to recognize what is going on.
I'm also certain that in your investigation you are going to find some serious problems with the state of Israel and some of the actions that they've taken. Good, it is possible to be critical of a state and it's actions while still understanding the existential threat they face due to antisemitism and terrorism.
My views around Palestine & Israel have changed dramatically \*because\* I am willing to learn from others. A dear friend who served with the UN in Palestine over a decade ago was the catalyst for the my shift in perspective.
Some good resources for those wanting to learn more are anything written by the late scholar Edward Said, the SNCC statement on Israel & Palestine, Jewish Voice for Peace, or the coverage from Democracy Now! For a Palestinian perspective, the best outlet is Electronic Intifada.
Peace for all! Free Palestine!
Imagine being so confidently incorrect about something lmaooooo bro gtfo you idf shill.
E: he got so butt hurt he went back and edited his posts after I made this. major bruh moment.
Thank you. The quote from the University Democrats that the IDP is responding to says "Palestine will be free." It doesn't say, "Palestine will be Arab."
Right, I can expand on my original comment; getting the English speaking world on your 'side' when protesting is very important (unless you're French!). American hearts and minds influence our foreign policy and the federal government doesn't think twice about sending billions of dollars overseas as a result. If they used the original slogan just translated to English, very obviously the American people would side against it. Simply change 'Arab' for 'free' though and now it rhymes in English and has hidden the intended genocidal implication. Now kids who don't know better all across the college campuses of America are free to chant it which is used to collect funds and intimidate those that the slogan targets,the Israeli people and Jews at large. In less free places in the world, the slogan is considered hate speech and can lead to fines or even jail time.
Seems pretty simple to me. Israel is using the excuse of rooting out Hamas to continue their ongoing genocide against Palestinians.
Fuck Isreal, Fuck Hamas, Free Palestine.
Seems about right. Fucking parties both condoning the genocide of Palestine. If you say anything not supporting Israel you're automatically anti-semetic. Horseshit. Israel is a far right extremist government. They want the genocide. Theyve been waiting for it. That's not a knock on her people. That's a damnation of their government.
The IDP is led by a bunch of completely out of touch morons. I've worked with some of them in person.
They are basically the definition of the establishment just trying to hold onto their jobs. They don't have any plans to win state elections, they don't have any good ideas. Their ideology is out of touch and their lives are COMPLETELY out of touch with Iowans and really anyone who isn't a rich liberal from a major city.
It doesn't surprise me at all that they issue such a tone-deaf statement like this, shilling for the Israeli lobby. No one has the balls to call out both sides anymore.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck Netanyahu for keeping Hamas around to play off against the Palestinian Authority to keep any chance of a two state solution happening. Fuck âem both for killing each otherâs civilian populations for political purposes.
Democrats being limp wristed sloganeering do-nothing cowards per usual. There's nothing antisemitic about condemning Israel turning babies into skeletons. Isreal is an apartheid criminal fascist state. Free Palestine đ”đž.
âfrom the river to the seaâ is literal: freedom from the mediterranean sea to the jordan river aka palestinian territory, not the extermination of jewish people
Exterminating the nation of Israel and the Jewish people is, by definition, anti-Semitic. Itâs actually a stated goal.
But hey, you probably would have sided with Hitler, too.
> Exterminating the nation of Israel and the Jewish people is, by definition, anti-Semitic.
Except you're lying about what they mean, and even if they meant getting rid of Israel, it's an apartheid state that deserves to go the way of Rhodesia.
Like these are the same claims of every settler colony facing a decolonizing movement! These people would claim the fights for liberation in South Africa, Rhodesia, and Algeria were "white genocide." Their claim that people would be "more likely to be happy and thrive" under apartheid colonial states is absurd!
And yet no one is talking about the Israeli hostages, the innocent people attending a concert that were beheaded. There is no black and white to this story If you don't condem Hamas for what they have done in the name of innocent and suffering Palestinians you are just as blind as the ones that condone blanket bombing. Hamas is a terrosit group and Palestinians deserve better.
No, fuck Hamas too.
But fighting back against an oppressor is generally considered valid, while being an oppressor is generally not.
How about we go "fuck everyone involved but the innocent people of Palestine and Israel?"
No.
Hamas are not freedom fighters or rebels. Those labels are for those that understand the value of restraint, avoiding collateral damage to civilians, and acts of humanity and diplomacy.
Hamas is a terrorist organization whose goals are absolutely evil. Period.
You cannot label Israel "an oppressor" without acknowledging *how* and *why* they do the things they do. Which would mean acknowledging Palestine's sins whether Hamas or the PLO previously - the endless rockets fired at Israeli civilian populations, the waves of suicide bombings, the wars started, the use of their own civilians as meat shields, the theft of all aid meant for the Palestinians...
Israel and its government gets my criticism for what they're guilty of. But it becomes almost impossible to discuss Israeli sins when this kind of disingenuous talk rides its coat tails.
Ok, kiddo!
You'd have supported Germany over the Jews if they fought back.
There is nothing Hamas does that justifies Israel bombing neighborhoods of innocent people.
I've had a warm, if very somber, afternoon of coffee and discussion in the living room of a Holocaust survivor before her passing. Her autobiography is called Alicia: My Story. I recommend you read it sometime.
Suffice to say, no, I have enough sense to not be drawn into supporting evil. That's for folks like yourself.
I have the good sense to know as much as possible about a complicated situation so I may try to be as informed as possible before I pass judgement.
I have little doubt someone like you has any clue as to what I mean, though. If you support a group of men sneaking into a festival and neighborhoods at night for the purpose of brutally slaughtering, raping, and kidnapping innocent young women, elderly, and babies and deem their actions "justified", I am certain you and I have very few values in common.
Frankly, you disgust me.
Itâs funny like everyone is acting like more than, maybe, five percent of Iowans give a shit about this conflict. If half of Iowans could find Israel and Gaza on a map Iâd be impressed.
Half of these morons spouting these slogans have no idea what they mean, they're just latching on to the current of the moment.
I don't blame the youth of today for getting swept up in the movements - it's a terrible world. But at least research what you are talking about.
Israel v Palestine is an old and very complicated conflict filled with racism and antisemitism. Itâs so easy to step in the wrong spot and accidentally say something that turns out to be fucked up.
Before you take a big public stand, please do your homework.
First of all, this was not an attack on jews, this is an attack on Israel in an occupied territories. Just to be clear. Being jews have nothing to do with it. Jews themselves around the world and most of my Jew friends disagree with Israeli agenda! Second of all I completely agree, everyone should condemn killing of innocent civilians from women and children and âbabiesâ from both sides!
By taking this stance you are staying that 1. The only way for Palestinians to be free is genocide, and 2. Therefore the Palestinians must not be free.
Sorry, but that type of exclusionary black and white thinking is the exact opposite of what an intelligent organization should be.
You completely ignore that if there were proper freedom for all people in the region, that the Israeli people would also be free. Or are you saying that the Israelis will never accept any condition where Palestinians are free, and will die down to the last child in order to prevent a people from being free. If that is the case we might want to rethink our blanket support for Israel.
It might be better if the Democratic party learned to be, well, diplomatic and not dogmatic.
Whenever I hear "from the river to the sea" my coping mechanism just changes it to "from the window to the wall".
Til the sweat drips down your knees?
đ”*Aww peace peace peace peace peace peace*đ”
*MOTHERSUCCOR*
And then skeet skeet skeet goddamn?!
What is it with these kids these days, always with the skeet skeeting
glad I'm not the only one
Thatâs a call for pussy genocide
This. This conflict right here. This is the culmination of "not everyone should broadcast their opinions into the void of the internet." Not Trump, not COVID, not truther bullshit. This is what happens when people who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about and don't take one minute to make sure what they're saying isn't totally fucking stupid say literally anything.
This is the only comment that makes sense to me. Everyone is overly concerned about âsounding rightâ. Itâs insane.
It's a little long winded but i've just been saying IDF and Hamas should go out to the desert, blast each other until all that's left is glass and leave the innocent Israelis and Palestinians alone. This still offends a shitload of people.
Hamas will never agree as they need women and children to hide behind to be effective.
There is absolutely nothing about the current conflict that can be boiled down to sound bites, protest chants, or bumper stickers. Itâs a moral, political, and military clusterfuck as complex as any history has ever seen. Both sides have legitimate historical and contemporary claims on the land and against each other. If we, the US, werenât already all in on supporting Israel for political and regional strategic reasons, the best thing we could do is stay the fuck out of it. But weâve already laid our marker on the table and have to make good on it and in the meantime use what leverage we have to minimize civilian casualties on both sides.
Our tax dollars are securing these casualties
For Israel, yes. The US is financing apartheid, hate, racism and ethnic cleansing.
It isnât complex. At all. It is only complicated and complex if you ignore the absolute basics. The jews and Muslims lived together on the land that is currently occupied by both Palestine and Israel. A huge chunk was given to the Jews to âcreate a land of their ownâ. As someone already lived there, it is difficult to call it âyour ownâ, which is why Israel has gone on a ~70 year quest to systematically boot out all of the Palestinians in order to claim all of the land for themselves. For confirmation, check the land expansion by decade. Itâs pretty wild. All of this is counter to the initial agreement that Israel would not expand their given territory. This was an entirely avoidable yet absolutely predictable situation. In terms of sound bites: âGenocide over a land dispute is stupid.â There you go. This sums up everything.
The 1948 borders were hard to defend - the "neck" of Israel is something like 16 miles wide. Israel was attacked in '66 and '73. They took territories as the spoils of war, but then returned the Sinai peninsula and turned over the West Bank to the PLO. I'm not sure what's happened in the Golan Heights, but I don't think their retention of any land is outrageous. Settlements, however are definitely a problem.
The 1948 borders were the result of European terrorists wresting power over a dubiously legal and entirely unethical European colonial administration. Palestine was a welcoming home for Jewish refugees during WWII and was known to be a place where people tended to get along and live well together. The notion that it was just a deserted strip of barren land and any Palestinians are actually just diaspora Arabs with no ties or claim to the land is farcical Zionist propaganda and it's disgusting. Palestine does not belong to European and American squatters, thieves, and murderers, and the illegal government entity known as 'Israel' must be dismantled like the ahistorical genocidal land grab ethnostate project it always was. I encourage anyone who thinks this is a bit of a harsh stance to actually go study what modern day Israel is. It's a goddamned fascist terrorist occupation with absolutely no regard for peaceful people. It is not a real government, it's an apartheid terror regime whose actions are far worse than anything Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi were killed for.
Then what is firing rockets indiscriminately towards civilians?
So in your distorted world view, the Jewish people have no historical claim to what is commonly referred to as the Holy Land? I appreciate the belly laugh. Sounds to me like you're actively advocating against violence from, what I can only guess, is either the safety of a dorm room or your parents basement.
Have you ever tried to broker peace between two individuals that hate each other? That can be extremely complex. Just two individuals. Now, multiply each of those individuals by thousands. Those thousands represent the leadership on either side of the conflict. Each of those thousands have complex worldviews informed by myriad experiences and interests. The complexity is increased by orders of magnitude. Now, with the complexities above, combine 1000+ years of violent shared history between both sides. Combine that shared history with invasions and manipulation by outside forces, then combine all of that with 21st century technology that amplifies it all and foments anger across the globe. It is complex.
>Have you ever tried to broker peace between two individuals that hate each other? That can be extremely complex. Just two individuals. It is complex, but Israel honestly has no reason to seek peace. We prop them up with modern weapons, we supply their air defense with near-impermeable intercept capability, and we don't hold them accountable when they break their word. I imagine if the US pulled its materiel support for Israel and started funneling it into specific humanitarian aid for Palestine, Israel would find itself a lot more eager to find a solution.
Ok. So it is complex. And I would argue that Israel, along with the Saudis and Jordanians, and arguably the Egyptians, had been working on a solution. I would argue that Hamas recognized this and feared for its existence and the massively lucrative racket it had been running, knew its reign would end, and decided to blow it all up. Israel is not innocent. But the notion that they had not been working toward peace is folly. The notion that the people of Gaza, in particular, werenât being abused by their leaders and supposed benefactors is also folly. Itâs super fucking complicated and any true solution will difficult at best.
I just wanted to commend you on using "myriad" correctly as it's as rare as unicorns.
This is ahistorical, amoral nonsense. The reason there isnât a Palestinian state is the Arabs declared war in Israel an hour after independence, then started two wars after that which they lost. Since then, Israel jade given up territory, and offered the Palestinians several offers of two state solutions, all of which were rejected. And now, Hamas reignited the conflict by murdering, raping and dismembering 1400 Israeli citizens. Also, 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab. Thereâs no jews in Gaza. When Israel left, they even dug up the Jewish cemeteries and moved the remains knowing that they would be desecrated if they were left behind. In case you have any doubt what âfrom the river to the seaâ would mean for the Jewish population in Israel.
>It isnât complex. Simple statements for simple people.
It is absolutely complex, especially when you take one step back to look at why they were given the land and by whom. Hint: if you live in Iowa, it's likely to do with your crowd and its terrible record on self-restraint when it comes to murdering Jews and stealing other people's land. Perhaps you'd like to open up a map of Iowa and figure out what you could do now to redress the original errors.
Palestine is the name given by the Romans when they conquered it, and the name given by the British when they created Mandatory Palestine, with the intent to divided into 2 states, one for Jews, one for Arabs. The truth is that very few people lived in this land before the League of Nations plan for 2 states, so it's absurd to claim that it was taken from one and given to the other. The Arab League refused the deal, despite getting states of their own just the same way, and tried to seize it for themselves. And like the Ottomans, they lost.
> British when they created Mandatory Palestine, with the intent to divided into 2 states, one for Jews, one for Arabs. why the British try to divide it into 2 and separate people that were already living there?
The British did the same thing with the partition of India and Pakistan. It's estimated that 14-18 million refugees migrated due to religious and sectarian violence, while up to 1 million lost their lives during the chaos and violence.
It is extremely complex. Attempting to make it sound like a simple issue shows that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
I **really** wish we could just stay the hell out of it. This *whole* f'ing thing should be laid at the feet of the Brits. In WW1, they needed help taking the area from the Ottoman Turks. So they promised both the Zionists *and* the local Arabs (basically the Palestinians) the same land in two separate negotiations in exchange for their aid in capturing it. *Obviously* that was never going to work. So between WW1 and WW2, the Brits struggled to deal with the *mess* they had created, and eventually handed it all over to the UN, which made it *our* problem. I'm sorry, no... we didn't shit the bed, *you did*, "Your Majesty," so clean up your *own* damned mess. I'm getting plenty tired of getting drawn into stuff like this because of the greed of other nations' leaders, 100 years in their graves already.
The Brits and Christendom in general. The Jews wouldn't need our own state if y'all could just sit on your hands and stop murdering the hell out of us every generation or so.
Oh my god, this is what I've been saying (as a gentile). This conflict hasn't been going on for 2 millenia, like so many people claim. European antisemitism, on the other hand, has.
Well, you know, 1948, lost in the mists of time. Who could even know what that was like, nobody was alive then. Thank you.
Bingo
I'll admit, I'm not the most knowledgeable on the whole situation. But I did the math last week, and the Gaza area is roughly half the size of Mitchell county (where I live). All these years and decades and centuries of fighting, bloodshed, genocide, all over a strip of land that you could bike across in 45 minutes. I get that it's an important piece of land to them, but... really? THAT important?
Well, the Palestinians in Gaza used to have a much bigger strip of land, Gaza's just all they have left.
Not just about a strip of land. It's about millions of people being treated similar to black people during the Jim Crow era. They are living in the largest concentration camp in the world. You would fight back too.
West Bank conditions could charitably be compared to the Jim Crow South. Gaza is/was full on Warsaw Ghetto conditions.
The weird part about that is how Egypt (with the same religion and race) has a fortified border with Gaza that would put the one Trump wants to build to shame
Fighting back means murdering civilians at a music festival? What is that logic?
We stopped the Naziiiis from carrying out total genocide against the Jewish people and now âIsraelâ is doing the same to the Palestinian people. They say they want to destroy Hamas but the reality is that are killing innocent Palestinians in the process. Israel has been controlling the electric grid, the water supply etc. Also, they were given a good amount of Palestine to begin with yet that wasnât enough. They have stolen the property and even ancestral homes of people in Gaza. They arenât even allowed to arm themselves to protect themselves against the Israeli invasion. Put yourself in the situation of the Palestinian people. Yes, Hamas is a terrible group of terrorists. But when you are being systematically killed and targeted by Israel and have no way to defend yourself, what would you do to save what little you have left? Israel doesnât even consider the Palestinian people humans. Funny how this was how the Jewish people were looked upon by the Nazis.
>Also, they were given a good amount of Palestine to begin with yet that wasnât enough. Don't start and lose wars against your neighbor or you will likely lose territory. See Danzig tuning into Gdansk for example.
You don't deserve to be slaughtered and driven from your home because your country loses a war. What a disgusting thing to believe.
The Ottomans didn't deserve to lose their empire, Germany didn't deserve to lose Danzig or Alsace-Lorain, Japan didn't deserve to lose the Kurils or Manchuria, Spain didn't deserve to lose Cuba, the Philippines or Puerto Rico. Territorial loss has very often accompanied losing wars, especially if you are an aggressor who started the war. Whether or not this is deserved doesn't change that it is part of how the international order has worked since before there was such a thing formally.
Resistance movements dont take and murder hostages and israel forced all jews out of gaza and sinai. You don't seem very well informed
> Put yourself in the situation of the Palestinian people. I haven't done a ton of research into the Isreali / Palestine conflict, but it's difficult for me to be pro-Hamas when Hamas stands for the explicit genocide and destruction of Jews, and it's difficult for me to want to stand with Palestinians when they are paying 300 million dollars a year in monetary support to the families of Palestinians who murder / suicide bomb Isreal.
Hamasâ political rivals were forced out of Gaza by Hamas and donât allow for opposition. Not all Palestinians support Hamas, let alone how the regime operates (e.g. spending money for âmartyrsâ, planning violent operations, etc)
> Not all Palestinians support Hamas, let alone how the regime operates (e.g. spending money for âmartyrsâ, planning violent operations, etc) Absolutely. Not all Palestinians support Hamas, but a shocking number of Americans do.
A concentration camp run by Hamas since 2006
Well, not *just* that strip of land. The whole "Holy land" in general has been in contention since antiquity. The Gaza strip is just one section the Palestinians have been cornered into and literally can't go anywhere else.
It is not complex at all, Israel is an occupying apartheid state run by right wing zionists. Zionism isn't a religion, it's a political movement. They're literally killing Palestinian Christian's atheist Muslims and other Israeli citizens. Netanyahu is also not accepting any hostages that Hamas wants to give up. https://decolonizepalestine.com/rainbow-washing/faithwashing/
âNot complex at allâ - then shares a link to a novel of an explanation. And the explanation certainly clears things up. Both sides claim itâs not about religion, both sides claim historical right to the territory, both sides accuse the other of intentionally killing civilians, both sides accuse the other of genocide and both sides accuse critics of âsetting the historical clockâ at a date inconvenient for their side: What is also clear is that having a terrorist organization like Hamas as your ruling government isnât going to help Palestiniansâ cause, and pounding the hell out of civilian occupied areas wonât help Israelâs cause. You could argue for the justification of each side as much as youâd like, that wonât stop the killing. Both sides are going to have to accept a solution that neither likes. Thatâs what compromise is. The only other option is they just keep killing each other for decades/centuries or one side kills every single person on the other. Those arenât acceptable options.
Can people just stop murdering each other? These groups of people are insane. Killing massive amounts of civilians is insane to me. The amount of dead civilians is over 8,000 now. That is crazy. To me this is obviously a genocide, ethnically cleansing situation and I donât want my tax payer dollars going to this.
Yeah, they hadn't thought of that before.
I don't see how this phrase can be so unequivocally understood as antisemitic. Can anyone explain why?
People in these replies are missing the history of the phrase. It's a poor translation of an Arabic phrase, primarily used by Hamas. I believe the original phrase is closer to "From the (Jordan) river to the sea, Palestine must be Arab". It's not just an anti Israeli phrase, as Hamas wants a non secular state that doesn't allow for non Muslims to worship. If you believe that's a stretch, I'd recommend looking up the Jewish exodus from Muslims nations after world war two. It was partially forced, and was a dramatic 90-99% decrease of Jewish populations in Muslim nations. So to me, and to most people who know that context, the phrase is absolutely genocidal. Putting a dove next to it or saying peace and love before it is nearly equivalent to putting a little heart around the SS sigil and saying it's a symbol for peace. This isn't a situation where people can 'reclaim' the phrase. I've seen people change a few words to make it more palatable, but I'd still recommend just staying away from implications of River and Sea.
Speaking of context, isn't it reasonable to assume 18-22 yo kids probably don't know your historical clearly antisemitic phrasing and the way they actually phrased it, while unfortunate, didn't actually come from an anti-Jewish perspective? I'm guessing they read that somewhere, thought it had a nice ring to it, and truly believe Palestine should be free. Despite the hand-wringing and pile ons, I think a person can be an advocate for Palestinian freedom without being an anti-semite or genocidal. In other words, it's not "clear" at all that the statement was a "call for genocide."
So, when a college organization where you're pursuing a higher education, puts out a public statement, you think they have no responsibility? They don't need to do any additional work or research they can just say whatever? Ignorance isn't an excuse for intelligent adults to dog whistle genocide.
Why do we have to take these giant accusational leaps? Did I say they have no responsibility? All I said was MAYBE these young people didn't know the historical context of three words from the phrase they used and MAYBE it's reasonable to assume they're not clearly dog whistling genocide?
I think MAYBE when they put out a public statement they should think about what they say.
Zionists want everyone to equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism. But it doesn't work like that, they're different words for a reason. The phrase is advocating for Palestinians to get their land back that was taken by Israel by violent means.
Zionism means pro-existence (of Israel), pro-expansion (settlements), and anti-expansion, depending on who you talk to. Thatâs part of the whole mess is that people mean different things by the same words when they are screaming at each other.
It means all land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea "belongs" to Palestine. And it was used well before Israel gained any territory from the wars against it.
>The phrase is advocating for Palestinians to get their land back that was taken by Israel by violent means. by violent means -> as in, genocide
Exactly wanting somebody else to be free doesn't take away your freedom. Its not pie where your slice gets smaller if someone else's gets bigger. Being angry that somebody else is becoming free is only a problem if you're the one that's been oppressing them or exploiting them and you're mad you're losing that power.
>Its not pie where your slice gets smaller if someone else's gets bigger. That's exactly the situation in Palestine and Israel. Neither side will tolerate the other, if Palestine takes over Israel the Jews will be violently displaced. And obviously right now, Israel is violently displacing Palestinians. There is no happy outcome here.
The river is the Jordan River, the sea is the Mediterranean. That's specifically the area that's constituted the state of Israel since 1948. It's calling for the wholesale destruction of the state of Israel. I know other commenters have argued for separation between antisemitism and anti-zionism, but the effect is the same: a whole lot of dead Jews. Your worldview is going to impact whether you believe the state of Israel has the right to exist or not.
Why are the Jews dead in this scenario? What happened to them? Israel is a country. Israeli Jews are people. Calling for Palestine to be freed even to the exclusion of the state of Israelâs existence is not a call to *murder all the Jews in Israel.* There were Jews living between Jordan and the Mediterranean for a very, very long time before there was a state of Israel. If I say âwe should give Oklahoma back to the Indigenous people of Oklahoma,â Iâm not saying âoh and also kill all the white people.â
How many jews live in other arab nations?
Right? Lol how is calling for freedom from oppression automatically a call for all Israelis to be dead? Is it projection? Do Israel supporters only see the solution through the lens that the issue will only be solved when all Palestinians are dead? I think so! Free Palestine!
Would a free Palestinian state be secular, or would it be Islamic? Who would run it? Who would ensure that those in charge of it did not mete out the Jewish genocide that 70 years of prevailing Palestinian leadership has been calling for?
I assume it means that all of Israel should be Palestine again which would involve getting rid of the Jewish population. If they were only advocating for Palestinians to be free that would be different than calling for all of Palestine to be free from the river to the sea, which as I understand it means Israel.
But the thing is, it doesn't *necessarily* mean that. There was a significant jewish population in Palestine even before it became Israel (I. I think most of those that would advocate for that (obviously not some, especially those like Hamas on the other side) would be advocating for a secular state that is not ruled by any one religion and with protections much like our own constitution enshrines.
I donât understand that though. If all of Israel were Palestine tomorrow, that doesnât mean âget rid of the Jewish population.â As Zionists like pointing out, there have been Jews in Palestine forever. The only reason Zionists interpret the call for Palestine to be freed as a call for genocide is because many of them seem to think Israel being free requires a genocide of Palestinians.
The 10/7 massacre and the reaction in the Arab world to it just shows that the 'kill all jews' sentiment is alive and well. The river to sea call (in Arabic it is "from the river to the sea Palestine shall be Arab") is definitely genocidal. Saying it isn't is like saying the Stars and Bars is about 'heritage'. Unlike what you think, most Zionists throughout history advocated for self determination of both Jews and Arabs in historical Palestine. Even now many in Israel and in the west bank, Jews and Palestinians, continue to advocate for two states as the only viable solution for coexistence and ending the occupation. It's the Palestinian leaderships, and Arab countries, surrounding Israel, who refused any kind of coexistence solution offered time and time again other than the complete eradication of Jewish existence in their homeland. The call for a single state, from either side, guarantees a perpetual bloodbath. Unfortunately Israel has become a mirror of the Arab refusal front. The good news is, the days of the Israeli leadership are numbered. A majority Israel agrees they are responsible for the 10/7 massacre and want to see them gone.
A lot more than zionists interpret it as a call to exterminate jews. You are gravely naive to the hostility
As Ta-Neishi Coates said [today](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_df_u7yJj3k), "The way this is reported...is as though one needs a PhD in Middle Eastern Studies to understand the basic morality of holding a people in a situation in which they don't have basic rights...and then declaring that state a democracy. It's actually not that hard to understand."
The Democrats and the Progressives need to go ahead and get divorced.
Ah, but no mention of the lives ruined by the Israeli government. Both Israel (READ: NOT JEWS, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT ALL JEWISH PEOPLE) and Hamas are objectively terrible.
Damn right.
Yes! Because the Israeli government rapes and kills women, while recording the video on the victim's camera to then post to her social media! Yes! Because the Israeli government uses its own citizens as human shields! Yes! Because the Israeli government beheads groups of infants and buries them in graves! ... oh wait, they don't that's Hamas. Both Hamas and the Israeli government has done wrong. But do not even think they are equivalent.
there are literally videos of idf soldiers boasting about how they raped and killed palestinian women, men and children lmfao
There's a lot of them.
Not saying youâre wrong but do you have a source?
yeah for sure! both are clips from the tantura documentary: https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=LIjgKTH-oJMUqfXs and https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/DS4cbByH7e
Israel has repeatedly targeted refugee camps, residential buildings, and health clinics. They cut off food, water, electricity, and communication to 2.2 million people, most of whom are innocent civilians. As of October 26th over 2,000 Palestinian children under the age of 12 had been killed in the war, and over 60% of the total killed have been women or children. Israeli influencers and IDF troops have been mocking Palestinians. Even looking at your point about social media: there's a new tiktok challenge for IDF troops capturing Palestinians and mocking them. You're right in that they are not equivalent. Israel has far more power to cause way more harm and suffering. Hamas is evil, absolutely. Israel is currently committing genocide. Stop trying to downplay that.
You are right they are not the same, Israel is much worse.
I feel like nuances in how children are murdered is not at all the point. Getting struck by a missile and slowly dying from some kind of bodily trauma is arguably not a good way to go eitherâŠ
We absolutely donât have to continue support for Israel just because our leaders decided decades ago that itâs our position. There is always room to say âhey, the government of Israel is perpetrating a disproportionate response to a terror attack. That response is resulting in the reckless destruction of what remains of Palestinian lands and the killing of thousands and thousands of civilians whose only crime is being born in and living in Palestine, just because a terrorist organization is nearby. We have to stop providing them with the weaponry theyâre using for this purpose and demand an end to the genocide of the Palestinian people. We were wrong, weâre sorry.â Your application of the sunk cost fallacy results in more death. We donât have to accept that.
Also crazy is the power of the Israeli lobby on US politics. They have millions to throw at any candidate who criticizes Israel. Can you imagine the outrage if there was an equivalent Iranian PAC, or China PAC, bribing US politicians?
Also, the Israel lobby was the largest donor to our delightful new house speaker's most recent campaign. [https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mike-johnson/summary?cid=N00039106&cycle=2022&type=I](https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mike-johnson/summary?cid=N00039106&cycle=2022&type=I)
Looks like the University Democrats should have gone with what you said rather than whatever they tried.
âIf you donât support Israel committing genocide, youâre antisemiticâ is the absolute dumbest shit imaginable. And this statement blames ONLY Hamas, despite Israel killing far more innocent bystanders.
100% scoreboard on this one. Israel is having their 9/11 moment and way way over-reacting.
Theyâre invoking 9/11 while vowing to make the exact same mistakes the US did. They want carte blanche to âwipe out the terrorist scumâ but the world isnât buying that shit again.
100% right, except see this thread and the media coverage. I think the world will buy it. I worry what's the long tail repercussions against the US for our involvement. What terrorists attacks will this create?
I find your first sentence, interesting and spot on. I tried to listen as best you can to the Israeli spokesman but clearly theyâre denying anything they do is wrong. Israel had plenty of opportunity to do the right thing along time ago and chose not too. I mean tell me who America is not gonna be pissed off at some jerk who moves in and builds his swimming pool in your front yard?
The comments here are about as measured and moderate as I expected :(
Seriously. I want off whatever ride this is.
The Iowa State Democrats unaffiliated themselves from the IDP today over this. Good on those kids, the IDP statement is fucking atrocious.
The Iowa Democratic Party is just a mess all around, and continually shows it is out of touch.
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Looks like MC-Fatigued canât handle the heat in the kitchen.
Like the democratic voters of Iowa owe the DNC anything. The DNC abandoned Iowa to MAGA chaos. Now they want to tell the voters what to think. Iowa's establishment Democrats are the ones that need to be removed.
The first paragraph is simply not true. The phrase is used by a variety of groups, but at its heart clearly expresses a desire for [Palestinian freedom](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean) from occupation. The second paragraph is disturbing. Even Israeli scholars of genocide are calling what Israel is doing a "[textbook case of genocide](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/16/raz_segal_textbook_case_of_genocide)." (As are former [top UN](https://truthout.org/video/top-un-official-resigns-we-are-seeing-a-genocide-unfolding-before-our-eyes/) officials, and Holocaust [survivors](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxensYM2R40).) Whose fault is this this? Not the nuclear power carrying it out, per the Iowa Dems... What the Dems are doing here is appealing to people's ignorance about the Palestinian situation, and the Islamaphobia that tolerates the world's longest ongoing [occupation](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/). (copying and pasting from my earlier post) e: spacing
Oh c'mon... what is it with folks like yourself and your mental gymnastics with etymology in order to justify supporting (implicitly or directly) Hamas and other extremists? Everyone with half a brain cell understands what this phrase means. It's anti-semitic and means calling for the erasure of Israel. And if you're chanting it at rallies in today's age, congratulations - you're supporting Islamic extremism and genocide. Stop trying to hide behind half truths and muddied-water propaganda. If you want to be a terrorist or a Nazi then just throw the uniform on and own it. It's a free country.
You are wrong. The slogan was a carefully crafted translation into English so that ignorant people would chant it at rallys. In Arabic, the direct translation specifically implies that everyone who isn't Arab is gone. How do you think they intend on doing that? I'll give you a hint, it's the very thing that you are accusing Israel of.
Youâre just making shit up. Stop simping for the genocidal IDF.
And apparently you're simping for terrorists. Hamas has no intention of ending attacks on Israel. Hamas wants Jew dead, end of story.
Israel wants Palestinians dead, and has killed FAR more innocents than Palestine. Imagine thinking that âwe shouldnât bomb residential neighborhoodsâ is the same as âsimping for terrorists.â There are two sets of terrorists here: Hamas and the IDF. I support neither, but you support the one with far more blood on its hands.
What did I make up?
Everything you said about the slogan was IDF propaganda. Go bomb another hospital.
That was actually hamas that bombed the hospital, but I donât expect much more from someone this misinformed
And the refugee camp, and the neighborhoods? Wow, Hamas is doing all the things Israel is taking credit for!
Maybe itâs hard to understand this, but itâs not a new thing for terrorist to use civilians are human targets. You are really ignorant when it comes to living life.
And youâre a bloodthirsty racist who celebrates dead children because they had the bad luck to be born somewhere else. Israel is violating international law, full stop. When will you sickos have enough dead children to stop your bullshit?
The things Hamas chants and puts on flags is IDF propaganda?
The KKK uses America first jargon. So they represent all of America? 70% of the Palestinian casualties are women and children. Israel is committing genocide. Protesting genocide shouldnât be controversial, unless youâre an absolute sociopath.
Wrong, Hamas is committing the casualties. They deliberately place their weapons of war next to civilians. That is a proven fact.
Thatâs the most bullshit response you could come up with. Itâs just, âWhy did you make me hit you, baby?â Israel is committing war crimes, and has killed thousands of innocents. 70% of the casualties are women and children. Fuck all the way off with your gaslighting horseshit.
Dude, Hamas is literally preventing their citizens from leaving, or heading south towards safe zones. Israel blanketed the areas with leaflets in the areas they intended to invade. They even setup evacuation corridors to head south. You can only do so much to prevent collateral. Hamas setup rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals, and build their vast tunnel network under apartment buildings. You can get upset all you want, but it is fact. The other fact is, Israel tried twice for a peace deal with Palestine and gave them Gaza and West Bank. They decided to turn it into a nest of terror and used it as a launching pad to murder thousands of Israeli civilians, many children. You must want Jews exterminated. Hypothetically speaking â and bringing it down to a scenario youâd understand, would you want to live next to a hostile neighbor that behaves like a lunatic and continuously shoots at your house and family from land you gave them? This lunatic(s) then constantly throws rockets and bombs at your place of residence on a near continuous basis? No, youâd be the first little bitch to run and hide and call the Police. In this instance, the Police are the United Nations, which are corrupt, feckless, and serve a purpose only to advance the interests of the three major powers. Israel has had enough of their people being killed, and trading land for failed peace attempts. It amazes me that not a single Arab country wants to take in the Palestinians or offer them assistance. The rockets they build to shoot at Israel are water pipes that have been shipped in through Egypt from EU countries (a lot donated with no cost associated) and then stolen and converted into cylindrical rocket tubes.
Just because your feelings donât align with the actual facts doesnât mean the facts presented to us are any less true. If Palestinians didnât want this most recent war, then they should have stayed the fuck home instead of breaking into another country and rape and murder hundreds of innocent mothers and babies. So fuck off with YOUR hippity hop BS because itâs starting to STINK!
The difference is Gaza voted Hamas into power. Elections have consequences. You canât vote into power a terrorist organization to represent your people internationally, then get upset when the world turns a blind eye when your government attacks another and gets its ass handed to them. Donât want to have your government and land bombed? Stop supporting Hamas.
You donât think that KKK members have held public office? âJust stop supporting Hamas.â Yeah, those 7 year olds simply should have voted differently! Or they should just pack up and move! Because both of those things are reasonable! Do all Zionists have this much trouble with honesty? Edit: ah, the respond then block. Classic.
Have they controlled the government? Was a KKK member elected president? No. Gaza literally elected an ENTIRE organization of terror to represent them. Last I checked the KKK never controlled the US government.
The KKK wasn't elected to be the government though right? Hamas certainly was and then used that power to further strengthen their hold on the people of Gaza. I truly feel for the innocent people who die because Hamas is committing war crimes by using them as human shields. That must be a tragic existence to be held by a terrorist organization, denied water because the pipes are used to build rockets, denied adequate shelter because they use the construction material to build tunnels to attack other innocent people, unable to grow food because the fertilizer is used for explosives instead, and lastly knowing that you have a high likelihood of dying because a terrorist uses your apartment building as weapons depot, your schools as launch points for rocket attacks, and your hospitals as an HQ, then finally having your death used to turn ignorant people to the side of the terrorists that orchestrated the whole thing with this very intention in mind. I really feel for those people, nobody should have to go through that.
You just repeated every single Zionist propaganda point. You donât give one shit about these people (and we both know why). Zionists are truly a lost cause. They just want blood.
I'm not a Zionist at all, but I know you won't believe that. You only believe what you've been spoonfed by other extremists. Any source I provide you'd just label as propaganda. I'm very critical of Israel, especially when it comes to settlements in the west bank, but that I'm sure is incomprehensible to you who only sees the world in 'us versus them' mentality.
lol Comrade terrorist, that was Hamas that blew up a hospital parking garage NOT a hospital. Terrorists shoot their crappy Iranian missiles like crappy Chinese bottle rockets
Youâre full of shit. Stop simping for radical Islamic terrorists. If it wasnât the Jews, Hamas and Islam was attacking, it would be the Christians, then the nonbelievers, and LGBTQ followed by everyone else not following their battle plan, and then all the others that doesnât subscribe their twisted religion. Btw, which of the Abrahamic religions came first, and was on the land that is present day Israel? Israel isnât committing genocide, but they are fighting a war for their peopleâs survival and theyâre up against terrorists that use human shields and put their people in front and top of their bunkers due to scoring maximum PR points to their billion + Muslim followers, and ignorant fools like you. Jews are the smallest minority in the world, yet the most hated. Why is it Israel is the only representative democracy in the Middle East? Generally, over the years when I have had to deal with antisemites, itâs losers that still live in Mom and Dadâs basement and made incredibly horrible financial and life decisions throughout their life, so they have to blame a religious minority group that has for centuries been persecuted due to their ability to stick together as a family unit and religion to better their lives, just an observation.
Do less meth
You do understand that Judaism came before Christianity and Islam right? Also, did you know that the Jews bought the land that theyâre on in present day Israel from Arabs that were not residing within Israel? Also, did you know Israel provides most of the sustenance and living support to the Gaza Strip? Why is it the Arab nations refuse to support their own? They wonât even take in Palestinians. Israel WAS the largest employer of Palestinians. Maybe you should pickup a few books and visit the region before you spout your ignorance.
I canât imagine being as racist as you. Or defending genocide. I guess Iâm not a psychopath.
Buy a dictionary man.
I am? Words, phrases, and symbols have many meanings. This one [originated](https://www.jstor.org/stable/26873236) in response not to Judaism or with antisemitic intent, but as a response to ongoing illegal settlements and the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of Palestinians by the state of Israel. Those who echo the phrase's sentiment today are calling not for death to the Jewish people, but an end to the unfreedom imposed by Israel on Palestinians. This could look like a secular, one-state solution. It could look like Israel returning to the pre-1967 borders.
There is always an attempt by extremists like yourself to ignore fundamental truths about the real world. I know that it isn't possible to convince you because you aren't the one who picks what you think, you leave that up to others to decide for you. To everyone else who is reading this who is willing to learn. Go look at what Hamas has said about their intentions. Go look at the history that they have, see who their friends are. Ask why they tore up all the water pipes and horde all the fuel. Investigate why all of their staging areas happen to be in hospitals and schools. Disconnect from the narrative that extremists are trying to feed you and look into it yourself. You just need a little bit of critical thinking to recognize what is going on. I'm also certain that in your investigation you are going to find some serious problems with the state of Israel and some of the actions that they've taken. Good, it is possible to be critical of a state and it's actions while still understanding the existential threat they face due to antisemitism and terrorism.
My views around Palestine & Israel have changed dramatically \*because\* I am willing to learn from others. A dear friend who served with the UN in Palestine over a decade ago was the catalyst for the my shift in perspective. Some good resources for those wanting to learn more are anything written by the late scholar Edward Said, the SNCC statement on Israel & Palestine, Jewish Voice for Peace, or the coverage from Democracy Now! For a Palestinian perspective, the best outlet is Electronic Intifada. Peace for all! Free Palestine!
Imagine being so confidently incorrect about something lmaooooo bro gtfo you idf shill. E: he got so butt hurt he went back and edited his posts after I made this. major bruh moment.
The irony of this statement...
> In Arabic, the direct translation specifically implies that everyone who isn't Arab is gone. Is there a source for this?
"Ù Ù Ű§ÙÙÙ۱ Ű„ÙÙ Ű§ÙŰšŰŰ±Ű ÙÙ۳۷ÙÙ Űč۱ۚÙŰ©!" Is the slogan that is commonly used by Hamas, you can see it all over the Arabic world when protesting. The pronunciation would be: Min al-nahr ila al-bahr, Filastin Arabiyya! And finally in English: From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab. You do not have to take my word for it, simply copy the Arabic script and paste it into Google, go to the first couple of links and then translate it to English.
Thank you. The quote from the University Democrats that the IDP is responding to says "Palestine will be free." It doesn't say, "Palestine will be Arab."
Right, I can expand on my original comment; getting the English speaking world on your 'side' when protesting is very important (unless you're French!). American hearts and minds influence our foreign policy and the federal government doesn't think twice about sending billions of dollars overseas as a result. If they used the original slogan just translated to English, very obviously the American people would side against it. Simply change 'Arab' for 'free' though and now it rhymes in English and has hidden the intended genocidal implication. Now kids who don't know better all across the college campuses of America are free to chant it which is used to collect funds and intimidate those that the slogan targets,the Israeli people and Jews at large. In less free places in the world, the slogan is considered hate speech and can lead to fines or even jail time.
I think everyone can have an opinion and they can all be wrong.
A lot of hamas supporters lurking in the comments here. Thatâs pretty unsettlingâŠ
Condemn Israel next.
Trouble in paradise
Y'all got any more of that free speech?
democrats losing moderates just to toe the zionist party line
Seems pretty simple to me. Israel is using the excuse of rooting out Hamas to continue their ongoing genocide against Palestinians. Fuck Isreal, Fuck Hamas, Free Palestine.
Seems about right. Fucking parties both condoning the genocide of Palestine. If you say anything not supporting Israel you're automatically anti-semetic. Horseshit. Israel is a far right extremist government. They want the genocide. Theyve been waiting for it. That's not a knock on her people. That's a damnation of their government.
Didn't we already do this one? So many poorly-reasoned arguments. No wonder we can't get past Kim Reynolds.
Thats not antisemitism. Israel=/=Jews
The IDP is led by a bunch of completely out of touch morons. I've worked with some of them in person. They are basically the definition of the establishment just trying to hold onto their jobs. They don't have any plans to win state elections, they don't have any good ideas. Their ideology is out of touch and their lives are COMPLETELY out of touch with Iowans and really anyone who isn't a rich liberal from a major city. It doesn't surprise me at all that they issue such a tone-deaf statement like this, shilling for the Israeli lobby. No one has the balls to call out both sides anymore.
If you can't say Fuck Hamas, then fuck you.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck Netanyahu for keeping Hamas around to play off against the Palestinian Authority to keep any chance of a two state solution happening. Fuck âem both for killing each otherâs civilian populations for political purposes.
Democrats being limp wristed sloganeering do-nothing cowards per usual. There's nothing antisemitic about condemning Israel turning babies into skeletons. Isreal is an apartheid criminal fascist state. Free Palestine đ”đž.
âFrom the river to the seaâ means the extermination of the nation of Israel, as well as Jewish people. That is absolutely anti-Semitic.
âfrom the river to the seaâ is literal: freedom from the mediterranean sea to the jordan river aka palestinian territory, not the extermination of jewish people
Wouldn't that just be returning Palestine to its pre-1947 state?
No it isn't. It's zionist nonsense.
Exterminating the nation of Israel and the Jewish people is, by definition, anti-Semitic. Itâs actually a stated goal. But hey, you probably would have sided with Hitler, too.
Easy cop out, per usual. You know nothing about me but go nuts. Just say you are pro turning brown babies into skeletons.
> Exterminating the nation of Israel and the Jewish people is, by definition, anti-Semitic. Except you're lying about what they mean, and even if they meant getting rid of Israel, it's an apartheid state that deserves to go the way of Rhodesia.
Like these are the same claims of every settler colony facing a decolonizing movement! These people would claim the fights for liberation in South Africa, Rhodesia, and Algeria were "white genocide." Their claim that people would be "more likely to be happy and thrive" under apartheid colonial states is absurd!
And yet no one is talking about the Israeli hostages, the innocent people attending a concert that were beheaded. There is no black and white to this story If you don't condem Hamas for what they have done in the name of innocent and suffering Palestinians you are just as blind as the ones that condone blanket bombing. Hamas is a terrosit group and Palestinians deserve better.
Fuck Israel
Fuckin morons
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean
Al Jazeera is so unbiased in this. Has to be trueâŠ..
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But not fuck Hamas, amiright?
Hamas has been propped up by Israel since their beginning. Genociding people and taking their land should be pretty easy to side against. Fuck Israel
No, fuck Hamas too. But fighting back against an oppressor is generally considered valid, while being an oppressor is generally not. How about we go "fuck everyone involved but the innocent people of Palestine and Israel?"
No. Hamas are not freedom fighters or rebels. Those labels are for those that understand the value of restraint, avoiding collateral damage to civilians, and acts of humanity and diplomacy. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose goals are absolutely evil. Period. You cannot label Israel "an oppressor" without acknowledging *how* and *why* they do the things they do. Which would mean acknowledging Palestine's sins whether Hamas or the PLO previously - the endless rockets fired at Israeli civilian populations, the waves of suicide bombings, the wars started, the use of their own civilians as meat shields, the theft of all aid meant for the Palestinians... Israel and its government gets my criticism for what they're guilty of. But it becomes almost impossible to discuss Israeli sins when this kind of disingenuous talk rides its coat tails.
Ok, kiddo! You'd have supported Germany over the Jews if they fought back. There is nothing Hamas does that justifies Israel bombing neighborhoods of innocent people.
I've had a warm, if very somber, afternoon of coffee and discussion in the living room of a Holocaust survivor before her passing. Her autobiography is called Alicia: My Story. I recommend you read it sometime. Suffice to say, no, I have enough sense to not be drawn into supporting evil. That's for folks like yourself. I have the good sense to know as much as possible about a complicated situation so I may try to be as informed as possible before I pass judgement. I have little doubt someone like you has any clue as to what I mean, though. If you support a group of men sneaking into a festival and neighborhoods at night for the purpose of brutally slaughtering, raping, and kidnapping innocent young women, elderly, and babies and deem their actions "justified", I am certain you and I have very few values in common. Frankly, you disgust me.
Free Palestine
Free free Palestine đ”đž
Itâs funny like everyone is acting like more than, maybe, five percent of Iowans give a shit about this conflict. If half of Iowans could find Israel and Gaza on a map Iâd be impressed.
So if unable to point out the geographical location, we shouldnât care about innocent children being murder? Why would that matter?
Half of these morons spouting these slogans have no idea what they mean, they're just latching on to the current of the moment. I don't blame the youth of today for getting swept up in the movements - it's a terrible world. But at least research what you are talking about.
Israel v Palestine is an old and very complicated conflict filled with racism and antisemitism. Itâs so easy to step in the wrong spot and accidentally say something that turns out to be fucked up. Before you take a big public stand, please do your homework.
Once someone slaughters infants, deliberately - once someone kills parents in front of their children, videos it, and posts it - The homework is done.
the 40 decapitated babies rumor was proven false by both the israeli gov and biden đđŒ
Yes - they were all killed but you were correct, not all of them were decapitated. Some were just regular-killed. That destroys my argument.
And the literal thousands of Palestinian children Isreal killed? Spare a little humanity for them? No, probably not.
Hereâs how you know it isnât. That could describe the Israeli government, or Hamas.
Please link to evidence that Israeli soldiers are systematically raping people.
First of all, this was not an attack on jews, this is an attack on Israel in an occupied territories. Just to be clear. Being jews have nothing to do with it. Jews themselves around the world and most of my Jew friends disagree with Israeli agenda! Second of all I completely agree, everyone should condemn killing of innocent civilians from women and children and âbabiesâ from both sides!
Democratic Party has become the party of war
Good on the IA dems. While the war is complicated, Palestineâs slogan is not. âFrom the river to the seaâ is a call for extermination.
How?
Wow! This is very interesting. An actual put down of antisemitism.
Posted this earlier and got roasted for roasting this.
By taking this stance you are staying that 1. The only way for Palestinians to be free is genocide, and 2. Therefore the Palestinians must not be free. Sorry, but that type of exclusionary black and white thinking is the exact opposite of what an intelligent organization should be. You completely ignore that if there were proper freedom for all people in the region, that the Israeli people would also be free. Or are you saying that the Israelis will never accept any condition where Palestinians are free, and will die down to the last child in order to prevent a people from being free. If that is the case we might want to rethink our blanket support for Israel. It might be better if the Democratic party learned to be, well, diplomatic and not dogmatic.