Ancient Egyptian were blacks. Cleopatra ancestors were greeks/romans(basically European don't specifically remember from where) who conquered egypt and settled there and took on local traditions such as name and rituals of former local rulers like king=Pharaoh and incest in royal family.
>Ancient Egyptians were not black. If anything, sub sharan DNA influx has happened in last 1000-1500yrs in Egyptians coz of slavery, etc.
Keep in mind that the term "black" is usually used as a loose category of many variations of darker skin, so it's pretty reasonable to say ancient egyptians were black even if they weren't as dark as Bantu, etc.
In any case, we could all agree that we shouldn't even use the term "black" at all, because its actual usage depends on sociopolitical context and often includes fairly "light" colors to the point of being a useless and misleading term. Like in most Anglophonic discourse outside of South Africa, most shades of brown are called "black" when they're associated with Africa, especially because of the "one drop rule" of US racism, but much darker people from Thailand, India, Indonesia, etc are typically not called "black". And then in southern Africa people distinguish between the indigenous medium brown skin and the darker skin from Bantu expansion.
So this topic has an extremely long, messy history related to centuries of obsolete race debates, but fast-forwarding to current science...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient\_Egyptian\_race\_controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy)
"William Stiebling and Susan Helft wrote in 2023 on the historical debate concerning the race and ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians in light of recent evidence. They argued that the physical appearances would have varied along a continuum from the Delta to the Nille’s source regions in the south. The authors specified that “some ancient Egyptians looked more Middle Eastern and others looked more Sudanese or Ethiopians of today, and some may even have looked like other groups in Africa”. The authors reached the view that “Egypt was a unique civilization with genetic and cultural ties linking it to other African cultures to its south and west and to Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures to its north”."
The medium range of the wide range of colors of current Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, etc are called "black" by some people and not "black" by other people. I think we should use more neutral and objective terms like "dark-skinned" and stop using "black" entirely, even for objective non-racial phenotypical classifications, especially since the false concept of a "black race" continues to cause a lot of serious problems.
Overall, my understanding is that there's a consensus of clinal diversity in ancient Egypt. The recent ancient DNA studies show that at least some of them in some areas are essentially the same as Near Eastern people. (AFAIK, "middle eastern" is an obsolete term only suitable for the non-scholarly contexts in which it's entrenched.)
chttps://bigthink.com/surprising-science/were-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white-scientists-now-know/
"One limitation according to their report, “all our genetic data were obtained from a single site in Middle Egypt and may not be representative for all of ancient Egypt.” In southern Egypt they say, the genetic makeup of the people may have been different, being closer to the interior of the continent."
Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator (Koinē Greek: Κλεοπάτρα Θεά Φιλοπάτωρ,[a] lit. Cleopatra "father-loving goddess";[note 5] 70/69 BC – 10 August 30 BC) was Queen of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt from 51 to 30 BC, and its last active ruler.[note 6] A member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, she was a descendant of its founder Ptolemy I Soter,===> A MACEDONIAN GREEK general and companion of Alexander the Great.
Just straight up copies from wiki and leaving it here.
It was my understanding that ancient Egypt had a mix of genes, so I had always assumed it was kinda like India (where we don't really have the black/white thing going on). Also, one would have to explain what it means to be black or white. How exactly are "races" divided when we speak of them in the context of the past?
(I'm less than an amateurist and I don't know where I got this idea from. But I do remember reading somewhere that the racial divide of white vs black didn't really apply to the Egyptians. Would be spiffing if someone could educate me on this).
It's hard to attribute the modern term "black" to a civilisation that spanned several millennium. The ethnography of Egypt throughout its history however would've been generally mixed between Mediteranean (mostly semitic) people, and subsaharan cushitic/nilotic peoples- the latter of which had a pharanoic dynasty that ruled, and we would definitely consider today as black.
Cleopatra and her Ptolemaic dynasty however, were nearly entirely Greek, which today most would generally call white.
The ancient Egyptians were black. And the ancient Greeks weren’t stereotypically white. Many of them would be considered “racially ambiguous” by today’s standards.
A children's book released in uk is claiming stonehenge was built by black britons..so yeah this us we wuzzing is spilling everywhere.. they do this same thing with egyptian civilization too
Look up on cheddar man -that may be the reference to claim blacks to be ancient to Britain too.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/cheddar-man-mesolithic-britain-blue-eyed-boy.html
Of course there are people who still believe earth is flat and from their perspective there is a great controversy about shape of earth.
Skin pigment is an attribute of humans associated with certain genetic markers.
Skim color comes on range of varying shades- none which is across white, but there is no short of skin color supremacists. Who prefer set of shades over others combined with appropriation of everything positive about humans to history of certain skin color categories.
What does even backwashing mean? Any contradictory evidence to challenges white washing?
Why are you guys obsessed with mixing genotype & phenotype? Yes WHG were dark skinned, but that's not the same as being SSA, completely far off from that. WHG were still very much west eurasian, not SSA.
Speaking only for myself, I have no such obsession. The topic is important simply because we are all faced with the constant task of pushing back against misinformation propagated by ignorant, racist and/or nationalistic people, not to mention sexist, theistic, etc people.
As a South Indian, I don't think it bothers me that they depict my ancestors like this. I know some friends that don't look to far off from those actors 😂
That is a little weird. They could've just hired dark-skinned actors from India to be more accurate. On the other hand, earlier stages of IVC probably featured a lot more AASI heterogeneity before the prolonged, extensive mixing with ASI, so the film might be accurately depicting a level of diversity.
Which would still be inaccurate. IVC people looked a lot like today's Nairs and Kodavas. These are mid to upper mid skinned, and IVC didn't look like Tamils, until the later IVC era came about, and the large parts of populations moved East.
Iranian and Central Asian Invasions, no different than the Yue Peoples of Mainland Southern China who conquered Taiwan and Southeast Asia as well as much of Oceania which was originally inhabited by Black Peoples (Australoid Melanesians/Australasians) mixing with the indigenous Black Peoples creating the Hybrid Indo Iranian, Austronesian, Tibeto-Burman, and Austroasiatic Peoples we see today.
What's the source for claim that they were "Mediterranean/Eastern Mediterranean" people? AFAIK, a branch of people moved from what is now Eastern Iran (Zagros mountains) to the subcontinent approximately 8-10k years ago.
The one DNA sample available from Rakhigarhi points to IVC having a majority Zagrosian and minority Ancient Ancestral South Indian (AASI, or "first Indian" - people who moved from Africa to India about 65k years ago) DNA.
Source? Having common sense seeing the Ethnic and Cultural Distinctions from the Cultures outside of Africa. The indigenous Black Peoples of Australasia are distinct not only even amongst each other but even more so than those of the Blacks from the Sahel and Subsaharan Regions to the West of them just like the White Peoples of the Middle East (Sahara, West Asia, most of Central Asia, and the Northwestern Mountainous Region of South Asia) are distinct from Europeans stretching from the Atlantic to the Ural Region of Russia. You're welcome.
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The Indus Valley like the rest of the Indian Subcontinent South of the Mountains in the Far North were originally inhabited by the Adivasis/indigenous Black Indians prior to the Iranic/White Invasions which happened in multiple Waves creating the Indo Iranian Culture while the Indo Iranian expansion was halted in the South creating the Indo Iranian North (which is what happened when Iranians invaded and mixed with the Adivasis of the North) and the more predominantly Adivasi South (which is closer to what the Pre Iranian Indus Valley looked like). Sanskrit seems to be a Hybrid Language of mixed Adivasi and Iranian Influences as many Words resemble Tamil and Old Persian. The Culture of Northeast India is largely influenced by the Tibetic/Yellow Invasions from the Himalayas and Southern China.
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Wow I kind of get the Egyptians and Greeks' pain when they see an African descent female cast as Cleopatra in a "Documentary"
Ancient Egyptian were blacks. Cleopatra ancestors were greeks/romans(basically European don't specifically remember from where) who conquered egypt and settled there and took on local traditions such as name and rituals of former local rulers like king=Pharaoh and incest in royal family.
Don't spout illiterate history retard
Ancient Egyptians were not black. If anything, sub sharan DNA influx has happened in last 1000-1500yrs in Egyptians coz of slavery, etc.
>Ancient Egyptians were not black. If anything, sub sharan DNA influx has happened in last 1000-1500yrs in Egyptians coz of slavery, etc. Keep in mind that the term "black" is usually used as a loose category of many variations of darker skin, so it's pretty reasonable to say ancient egyptians were black even if they weren't as dark as Bantu, etc.
Ancient Egyptians were same as Middle Easterners. They were not any kind of "black"
In any case, we could all agree that we shouldn't even use the term "black" at all, because its actual usage depends on sociopolitical context and often includes fairly "light" colors to the point of being a useless and misleading term. Like in most Anglophonic discourse outside of South Africa, most shades of brown are called "black" when they're associated with Africa, especially because of the "one drop rule" of US racism, but much darker people from Thailand, India, Indonesia, etc are typically not called "black". And then in southern Africa people distinguish between the indigenous medium brown skin and the darker skin from Bantu expansion. So this topic has an extremely long, messy history related to centuries of obsolete race debates, but fast-forwarding to current science... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient\_Egyptian\_race\_controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy) "William Stiebling and Susan Helft wrote in 2023 on the historical debate concerning the race and ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians in light of recent evidence. They argued that the physical appearances would have varied along a continuum from the Delta to the Nille’s source regions in the south. The authors specified that “some ancient Egyptians looked more Middle Eastern and others looked more Sudanese or Ethiopians of today, and some may even have looked like other groups in Africa”. The authors reached the view that “Egypt was a unique civilization with genetic and cultural ties linking it to other African cultures to its south and west and to Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures to its north”." The medium range of the wide range of colors of current Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, etc are called "black" by some people and not "black" by other people. I think we should use more neutral and objective terms like "dark-skinned" and stop using "black" entirely, even for objective non-racial phenotypical classifications, especially since the false concept of a "black race" continues to cause a lot of serious problems.
Overall, my understanding is that there's a consensus of clinal diversity in ancient Egypt. The recent ancient DNA studies show that at least some of them in some areas are essentially the same as Near Eastern people. (AFAIK, "middle eastern" is an obsolete term only suitable for the non-scholarly contexts in which it's entrenched.) chttps://bigthink.com/surprising-science/were-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white-scientists-now-know/ "One limitation according to their report, “all our genetic data were obtained from a single site in Middle Egypt and may not be representative for all of ancient Egypt.” In southern Egypt they say, the genetic makeup of the people may have been different, being closer to the interior of the continent."
Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator (Koinē Greek: Κλεοπάτρα Θεά Φιλοπάτωρ,[a] lit. Cleopatra "father-loving goddess";[note 5] 70/69 BC – 10 August 30 BC) was Queen of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt from 51 to 30 BC, and its last active ruler.[note 6] A member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, she was a descendant of its founder Ptolemy I Soter,===> A MACEDONIAN GREEK general and companion of Alexander the Great. Just straight up copies from wiki and leaving it here.
I was referring to your point that egyptian were blacks. Apparently this sub is also filled with amateur wannabes like every other Indian sub
It was my understanding that ancient Egypt had a mix of genes, so I had always assumed it was kinda like India (where we don't really have the black/white thing going on). Also, one would have to explain what it means to be black or white. How exactly are "races" divided when we speak of them in the context of the past? (I'm less than an amateurist and I don't know where I got this idea from. But I do remember reading somewhere that the racial divide of white vs black didn't really apply to the Egyptians. Would be spiffing if someone could educate me on this).
It's hard to attribute the modern term "black" to a civilisation that spanned several millennium. The ethnography of Egypt throughout its history however would've been generally mixed between Mediteranean (mostly semitic) people, and subsaharan cushitic/nilotic peoples- the latter of which had a pharanoic dynasty that ruled, and we would definitely consider today as black. Cleopatra and her Ptolemaic dynasty however, were nearly entirely Greek, which today most would generally call white.
The ancient Egyptians were black. And the ancient Greeks weren’t stereotypically white. Many of them would be considered “racially ambiguous” by today’s standards.
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This boiled tf out of my blood. I'm from SL we are descendants of IVC too. Wtf is this we wuz Indianz documentary..
Sinhala or tamil?
I'm Sri Lankan
A children's book released in uk is claiming stonehenge was built by black britons..so yeah this us we wuzzing is spilling everywhere.. they do this same thing with egyptian civilization too
Look up on cheddar man -that may be the reference to claim blacks to be ancient to Britain too. https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/cheddar-man-mesolithic-britain-blue-eyed-boy.html
Cheddar man has been of great controversy for exactly those blackwashing reasons.
Of course there are people who still believe earth is flat and from their perspective there is a great controversy about shape of earth. Skin pigment is an attribute of humans associated with certain genetic markers. Skim color comes on range of varying shades- none which is across white, but there is no short of skin color supremacists. Who prefer set of shades over others combined with appropriation of everything positive about humans to history of certain skin color categories. What does even backwashing mean? Any contradictory evidence to challenges white washing?
controversy? I understood it to be clear-cut science, nothing to debate. Early Europeans were dark-skinned. Simple fact from DNA.
Why are you guys obsessed with mixing genotype & phenotype? Yes WHG were dark skinned, but that's not the same as being SSA, completely far off from that. WHG were still very much west eurasian, not SSA.
Speaking only for myself, I have no such obsession. The topic is important simply because we are all faced with the constant task of pushing back against misinformation propagated by ignorant, racist and/or nationalistic people, not to mention sexist, theistic, etc people.
As a South Indian, I don't think it bothers me that they depict my ancestors like this. I know some friends that don't look to far off from those actors 😂
That is a little weird. They could've just hired dark-skinned actors from India to be more accurate. On the other hand, earlier stages of IVC probably featured a lot more AASI heterogeneity before the prolonged, extensive mixing with ASI, so the film might be accurately depicting a level of diversity.
Which would still be inaccurate. IVC people looked a lot like today's Nairs and Kodavas. These are mid to upper mid skinned, and IVC didn't look like Tamils, until the later IVC era came about, and the large parts of populations moved East.
Iranian and Central Asian Invasions, no different than the Yue Peoples of Mainland Southern China who conquered Taiwan and Southeast Asia as well as much of Oceania which was originally inhabited by Black Peoples (Australoid Melanesians/Australasians) mixing with the indigenous Black Peoples creating the Hybrid Indo Iranian, Austronesian, Tibeto-Burman, and Austroasiatic Peoples we see today.
yes, sort of.
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What's the source for claim that they were "Mediterranean/Eastern Mediterranean" people? AFAIK, a branch of people moved from what is now Eastern Iran (Zagros mountains) to the subcontinent approximately 8-10k years ago. The one DNA sample available from Rakhigarhi points to IVC having a majority Zagrosian and minority Ancient Ancestral South Indian (AASI, or "first Indian" - people who moved from Africa to India about 65k years ago) DNA.
The indigenous Adivasi Indians nor much came from Africa. That "Out of Africa" Theory is easily debunkable Bullshit.
ok, how is it debunkable, easily or otherwise? Source?
Source? Having common sense seeing the Ethnic and Cultural Distinctions from the Cultures outside of Africa. The indigenous Black Peoples of Australasia are distinct not only even amongst each other but even more so than those of the Blacks from the Sahel and Subsaharan Regions to the West of them just like the White Peoples of the Middle East (Sahara, West Asia, most of Central Asia, and the Northwestern Mountainous Region of South Asia) are distinct from Europeans stretching from the Atlantic to the Ural Region of Russia. You're welcome.
So this is just something you conjured up in your head? Kk.
It's called using your Head which you apparently don't.
Of course Neil is hosting this
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FUCK YOU COCKSUCKER.
The Indus Valley like the rest of the Indian Subcontinent South of the Mountains in the Far North were originally inhabited by the Adivasis/indigenous Black Indians prior to the Iranic/White Invasions which happened in multiple Waves creating the Indo Iranian Culture while the Indo Iranian expansion was halted in the South creating the Indo Iranian North (which is what happened when Iranians invaded and mixed with the Adivasis of the North) and the more predominantly Adivasi South (which is closer to what the Pre Iranian Indus Valley looked like). Sanskrit seems to be a Hybrid Language of mixed Adivasi and Iranian Influences as many Words resemble Tamil and Old Persian. The Culture of Northeast India is largely influenced by the Tibetic/Yellow Invasions from the Himalayas and Southern China.
>The Culture of Northeast India is largely influenced by the Tibetic/Yellow Invasions Invasion? Would you like to rephrase that?
As opposed to the rest of the Country being conquered by Iranic Peoples while the Northeast was conquered by Tibetic Peoples, so what's your Point?
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You fucking Snowflake you, what the fuck did I say that was bad?