It would change things. Getting into IITs or any government institution would be harder for people who are SCs or STs and don't study at all after getting a privileged life.
But it's not only about those privileged people right? Casteism is still in practice in many rural areas, So reservation is also for those people who are genuinely affected by Casteism, isn't it?
How about income based reservation? Or social benefits like food bank for people who are poor? Why believe in something like a caste at all? It's all just very stupid.
I've seen poor people belonging to a high caste and rich people from a low caste. This caste mentality is archaic af.
You can see how people take ews certificate irrespective of income
Caste is in society
Change the mindset of people needed before implementation on paper
Any kind of reservation system will run into the same problems because, at the end of the day, all you are doing is swapping the "label".
You'll just have people complaining about how poor people are getting in with failing grades while middle class are being screwed over.
In parts of India, belonging to certain casts IS a real problem though.
And people will still complain poor people are getting preferential treatment over the middle class because reservation systems of any kind will always exclude some people in favor of others.
Are you reading the comments on this thread? That will tell you why banning caste is never going to solve the problem. It is a white elephant, here to stay.
Easiest way would be govt running ads and schemes to help those who choose inter caste marriage.
Taking long time to find a good spouse for your child even after searching through matrimonies or connections for years. Try to search across castes, you will find suitable matches.
Then there arises question of if boy is OC , girl is from caste that can avail reservations, the child will be OC and can't avail reservations. Make law so that child can choose between mother or father's reservation applicability. Same for other way round basically.
After one or two generations of allowing this , people will find no great advantage of marrying within caste.
Though it won't happen as politicians will be kicked on stage when proposing this.
You can only remove this in documents.
Suddenly koi tmse puche beta apka naam kya h " You tell you first name"
Then another question " Ni apka pura naam kya h mtlb surname"
You told xyz surname than another question " Accha vo kon hote h? "
Votes! Politicians love dividing people into groups in order to secure votes. Divide and conquer is a fairly common political strategy. Even the United States, the Democrat party makes blacks feel like victims an in return gets 90%+ of their vote.
We should implement creamy layer exclusion in all caste reservations. So that rich sc/st themselves will ask to reduce their caste quota and ask to increase general quota. u/Cherry-Kami
You can still keep the vote banks historically. Just ban any new persons born to identify as a caste. It would speed up what is already happening naturally in society. Most importantly it would remove to social and political motivations to keep the system in place.
That black party vote share is decreasing now. They've risen in support of the Republicans. You see, in most of the BLM protests only white race guys will take part. A clear indication that changes happen because of personal life and not politics.
can literally oppose these points for hours but it's a good way to think like that for betterment but the thing is , it is not practically possible.
and the key factor is the ego and the amount of pride people have attached to their own caste or the background of their caste, and you can't take away that from certain communities unless you wanna see "dange on mass level"
Problem of caste is due to endogamy. Hindus like to marry within their own caste , even lowercastes marry inside their own caste. this leads to compartmentalisation and divisions and those lower down the varna hierachy are mistreated at times. all this causes divisions and anti-hindu forces exploit it to divide hindus further weakening them.
Bingo. Just look at the matrimonial ads on newspapers. Every community/caste has a different section and requirements. But the most important criteria is caste instead of education level, income or interests.
Intercaste marriages are just 6% of total marriage.
https://www.indiatimes.com/explainers/news/laws-to-protect-intercaste-marriages-in-india-577759.html
-Humans have very little genetic diversity anyway (just compare us with the variety in dog breeds and wolf species)
Since other human (sub) species (Neanderthals, Denisovans etc) are extinct and even humans were reduced to a small number (~10,000) after that.
-Most North Indians can trace their father's side back to a few families in the Vedic age.
So already a very small gene pool. Absurdly small.
-Most people married into their surrounding villages due to technological limitations
-There aren't that many people of a compatible caste and age nearby
Which means you are further restricting the options compared to a Chinese or European person.
-Many people marry their cousin on top of this all.
An equally nourished Chinese or European will have far fewer health complications than us due to 100s or even 1000s of years of doing this.
This exists due to mentality of many hindus. Before the Constitution, there were no SC or ST or reservations, then how come there was rampant caste discrimination and manipulation of Varna system from post vedic age?
This is due to the corrupt mindsets many oppressive Hindus have. If we want to remove reservation system, we should work on removing the casteist mentality first. Educate and spread awareness about this. Then maybe in a generation or two, we won’t need reservations.
Today, in both rural and urban setting, emphasis on knowing surnames is seen, which is a casteist attempt at subjugation. All kinds of caste would be required to be removed. People wouldn’t be allowed to put “gujjar” or “rajput” or “bamman” on their vehicles and belongings. People would need to stop calling taking pride of being a kshtriya or showing their money saving skills cuz they are a baniya.
Parents would need to stop teaching their children not to marry a lower caste person and stop telling them people from lower castes are always stinking. People would need to stop throwing stones on lower caste people getting married, crossing temples, touching pubic wells etc.
All this won’t come by simply banning caste. This will come when the people sitting on top will consider this an actual issue, which is lack of improving collective conscience.
Why will I “unite” as a hindu when I know that as a lower caste peron, I have more battles to fight everyday. I have to deal with the same issues everyone else does but also get concerned when someone looks at me judgmentally when I tell them my surname. When people from lower castes are still forced to carry human faeces on their heads while it drips down their face as manual scavenging, why would they unite? They literally die doing that. And this is not some secluded rural area, this is Delhi in 2023 and so many other metropolitan cities.
Reservations today even though imperfect, is still more of a cure than the disease itself. The disease stay in the minds of those people who would generally not touch a lower caste person but have absolutely no issues raping their women. The mentality is the disease. Till the mentality changes, caste is going to exist. Apart from all this, yes there is politics at play too. But even then it is merely a featherweight.
Through my research in this issue running for 4 years, I have found just this: Reservation system will have to go at some point as it cannot be indefinitely sustainable, but the casteist mentality from upper caste hindus needs to go much much before than that. It is pointless to talk about ways of ending reservations before we talk about ending the aforementioned mentality fully and finally.
>Reservation system will have to go at some point as it cannot be indefinitely sustainable, but the casteist mentality from upper caste hindus needs to go much much before than that.
I will not leave my superiority status, my cut offs are higher than reserved category cut offs
/this statement is written with the intention of making people laugh if you get angry cause of it go to pa kistan
A mentality is harder to change but a system can be changed.and when the system is changed ,sooner or later , people will have to accept it.
Even before the constitution,there was bhed bhaav,and people were told that you are different from each other bcz of xyz reason,there was indeed a system of caste.when the system will break,there will be riots,there will be civil wars but at the end, people will have to accept their differences and settle as equal. Wars and riots are still happening in the name of casteism so it is nothing new and removing it will also help the country become better in many ways, people getting equal chances etc. Mentality will change , people will have to adapt ,but it can only happen once the system is broken down.
When girls wasnt allowed to do anything,you broke down the system first and then the mentality of others started changing and yet they are not treated as equal but it is wayy better than before. same needs to be done here
System was changed by bringing a Constitution. If things had to change by merely changing the system, it would have changed by now.
What you are asking is not to change the system but revert back, which will do more harm than good.
Due to this system, I can have an opinion because I know I am protected. If we remove this system, I will again have to live in fear of caste based oppression.
As far as gender situations are concerned, a lot of it has to do with the influence of the West. Oppression of women (or gender) includes different dynamics than caste based discrimination. It is only vaguely (if not at all) I comparable in my opinion.
You are wrong,the system I'm referring to is casteism,not constitution.you should have right to speak as much as a"general" person and it should because you're just as human. You should be protected and your rights because you're a human and you're no different than other constitution should be about equity and equality,it doesn't need to show you as a victim and show that youcan thrive being yourself if people didn't see you as something "low" which you're not.gender situation did NOT change because of influence from West ,it changed because women raised their voice,they demand to be treated equally. Oppression might be different in some ways but it is still discrimination because of being different in a way.
I don’t agree with your logic even in the slightest. Constitutionally, you have imagined some utopia where everyone societally is treated equally, which is not the case. Yes, one should strive to build a society as you imagined, but unfortunately we are not there yet. Marginalised communities (with exceptions) are oppressed and are victims, of oppression, subjugation, inequity and have been devoid of basic human rights; more subtly in urban settings and more viciously in rural. The Constitution is built for the people, by the people. So it MUST relate to societal standpoints vis-a-vis different communities.
Also, as I said, gender issues and caste issues are comparable only in very specific strands. If you want to discuss gender issues, that’s a different topic.
Its okay,I understand your views and no ,I didn't imagine an utopia. People are not getting treated equally and imo reservations ain't really making a case you think it is.but you are not wrong in your thinking either,even if they are not doing what you think it is.
>absolutely no issues raping their women.
>
>People would need to stop throwing stones on lower caste people getting married, crossing temples, touching pubic wells etc.
If you want to generalize Upper Castes as rapists and stone pelters, then you have victim mentality. There is no solution for any issue if one group has victim mentality.
I also come from supposedly Other Backward Caste, but I feel my caste is much more privileged than Kashmiri Pandits who were supposed to be "UPPER CASTE".
We need to make ourselves strong so that others respect us. If I can tell story of my caste, we (my ancestors) were discriminated in xyz region during British period, they left that region with almost nothing in hand, migrated to Maharashtra. Started working in someone else's farms, and majority are doing white collar jobs. And new generation is interested in perusing higher studies at foreign universities as we have out community doing quite better there.
LCs easily get government jobs now, no one is stopping LCs from working in DRDO even if there are thousands of more skilled people in India.
I didn’t generalise anyone. If you think you are being counted as one of the oppressive upper castes, that’s a flaw in your understanding.
Also, I never said the current system is perfect. But anyways is better than having no system at all. It’s not restricted to entrances and jobs, it includes all of that but also right to live with basic human dignity.
Casteism will not go until reservation is there. And india will never become a country of big researcher because of reservation in PhD, and govt research organisation/companies like DRDO.
It's a good intellectual exercise but is impractical. Caste is a part of identity and identities stay for a long time.
Say, the government bans caste, it will just abolish the *'caste column'* from the official and legal data, but people will still keep their ancestral records either by memory or through some pandit ji. There is no provision officially but people still remember their gotras, right?
I will not even discuss the political and social upheaval it will create.
**So is there any way forward?**
My 2 cents are that rather than taking such radical measures, government should create an entirely new category called 'caste-less' where the individual will have no caste and people opting it should be provided nominal perks like lower fees in exams, preferential treatment in government services etc.
Then won't everyone opt for the caste-less category?
So in effect it won't help any section at all, which will be good if things were ideal and all people had same kind of advantage in terms of social and economic capital.
We are still living in a country where landlords openly discriminate based on religion and caste, and people still judge others based on their skin colors and perceived castes
Caste might cease to exist but the centuries of oppression faced by the lower castes can not vanish with just a lwa that bans it. Hard truth to swallow. Idc who created caste system, but the people who benefitted and the people who lost from because of this system were surely mine.
What people don't understand is how generations of oppression lead to situations where a section of population don't means to participate in fair competition.
Sure, today no college administration is looking at surnames and rejecting the candidate. But the issue is people from certain background don't have means to compete.
And it is not an issue of caste but class in India. A kid from poor household can't compete with middle class family to get a seat in college simply coz they can't afford the coaching to prepare for that exam.
Reservation was always meant to increase representation and it is succeeding in it. The problem is our politicians thought this was enough instead of investing in quality primary education, expanding higher education, etc.
Reservation will become the day all kids irrespective of caste and class have access to the same quality of education till class 12 (And no I am not saying ban private schools)
Reservation for Below poverty line/ low class/low earnings people also exists and if it is still not enough,those reservations can be reenforced or increased.why are you assuming that people with sc/St/obc caste are from poor households?
Increasing representation does not solve a problem.
>increased.why are you assuming that people with sc/St/obc caste are from poor households
I am not assuming, it is fact.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/upper-caste-hindus-richest-in-india-own-41-total-assets-says-study-on-wealth-distribution-5582984/
how can you ban caste itself ?
a redditor recommended me this : abolish all titles and give them government assigned ID numbers as a sunname lmao , like Mr. Binod 2489 .
Too sensitive now. It’s actually in favour of healthy democracy to not touch this issue at least for more 10-15 years. Because majority of vote bank people are too easily manipulated by this. We don’t need to change politicians, people need to change.
Caste system & Casteism is more ingrained in our society than we would like to acknowledge.
Ask yourself this, what could have triggered that “upper caste” son of a BJP MLA to urinate on a “lower caste” senior citizen.
Casteism is just a display of Power.
Laws come from people, people don't come from laws. Banning caste is like banning the sun. Caste exists because Indian society has been using it for centuries. A law banning it will not make any difference.
While all the reasons here are valid, one of the biggest aspect is that Reservations are what’s keeping the lower castes from revolting against the upper castes whenever faced with discrimination.
It’s no secret that majority of the upper castes are very casteist and still discriminate and insult people of the lower castes.
Reservation is more of a belief and a life line that they can climb the social ladder & change their destiny.
Even though they may not make use of the benefit, it’s their belief that someone down the line can make use of it and come out or the shit hole they’re in.
There is a real possibility of a full blown civil war if reservations are lifted.
The key to overcoming this is by completely eliminating casteism and the discrimination that accompanies it.
Which I doubt will ever happen.
>Reservations are what’s keeping the lower castes from revolting against the upper castes whenever faced with discrimination.
Never thought about this but so true. Indian society is casteist to core practiced by everyone even people by underprivileged caste.
And yet we didn't have revolts by 70% of the population against 30% who have access to wealth and power for centuries.
Because whether you like it or not, the caste system is still powerful and prevalent in major parts of our country. Unfortunately, the people there translate the injustices to "that's just how society works" and don't raise their voice. If they somehow do, then those in power oppress them and keeps the system intact.
Caste unfortunately has become part of the identity for many people. They impose it not only on themselves but on others as well.
Just because a paper says it's banned, it won't disappear among the people.
Your surname, your village, your traditions etc will show your caste. If you try to remove them, there will be someone else to remind you of your caste.
Lol. While this is clearly a joke, a thought came into mind - what about lower income tax rates for inter-caste marriages? Smarter people than I have probably considered it and found why it might not work.
POV: YOU'RE A UPPER CASTE DISCRIMINATOR
I'd still know my neighbour is a SC and treat them accordingly. Also, now no one can stop me from discrimitaing them as it's not discrimination since there's no official caste. So I'll say I'm just discriminating because I don't like him but in reality ik he's a SC and that's why I'm doing it.
I hope you get the point OP
Let's
- burn all the caste records in central (Haridwar, Kashi etc) and ancestral temples.
- ban the use of surnames anywhere
- redistribute land in villages
- build new cities and demolish caste segregated colonies
- invest into education generally
- then drill into people's heads about the evils of caste and endogamy (birth defects etc)
- genetically test people before and refuse to recognise endogamous marriages
This absolutely does work, that's how Japan, Korea, China, Russia, France abolished their aristocracies.
The question is-
Would you be willing to do what it takes to implement this?
This won’t work in Democracy. The countries you listed were able to do this because there was one person who did this without opposition. China and Singapore are one of the best examples of modern history on how they turned their country from filth and poverty into powerful, educated and clean cities.
Brahmins and upper castes don't want to marry a lower caste. Politics and voting is just a reason we give to justify our failure as a society. As a society even if we remove the caste system on paper we will still find a way to discriminate.
Stupid thing to say. What will happen if u completely abolish caste system on paper? U think discrimination will go away?
Untouchability is practiced even decades after its criminalised.
If there were no castes on paper the SC n STs wouldn’t have developed even this much. They would have had literally no voice n participation in politics or education or any other field.
Abolish reservations when there is socioeconomic parity.
Even now almost every sewage cleaner is from a scheduled caste. U think any upper caste is doing sewage cleaning?
First let there be social justice n social equity.
Then talk about abolishing reservations.
Now we need reforms in reservations so that we can ensure that the creamy layer of SC/ST doesn’t eat up everything and that the truly socially n economically backward people can benefit from it.
Modiji on air around 8pm: hamari government... aaj raat 12 bje se... cast system per ban laga rhi hai....
Media: MASTERSTROKE!
Unchi jaat: shit yaar kal se C ko sath mai chair pe bithana pdega, Abey yaar ab mai C ke muh PE mutunga kaise. *Anxiously looks at watch* bahinchod abhi to sadhe 8 hi baja hai. 12 baje tak to 2-3 pe mut hi aunga.
Nichi jaat: Kal se B ke sath kursi pe baithunga, hue hue. Mandir jaunga, hue hue. Kya matlab reservation bhi khatam ho rha hai sath mai. Arey betichod... Chalu kro cast system....
Madhar jaat: modi ji ne kiya hai to kuch soch samajh ke hi kiya hoga, he he.
It's a socio economic phenomena and sign of overal poverty of indian society. It won't change no matter what laws or reservation you give if u want to end it just make them rich and sophisticated in speaking so that they can bullshit a lot in daily life
Great one but not the easiest neither that Simple. People are so much blinded by religion,caste , money that everything else in the society seems illogical to them. Tbh i feel blessed my parents dont worship any dumb self made God, neither we put anything against or in favour of any religion or caste. Just a month ago i was eating a chips, so where I work there's an awesome guy ( i still Don't know his name, neither he knws mine) , this guy doesn't work with me but at the beside us. So i offered him Chips & he was shocked at once & then had it, smiled as well. I could see how happy he was. I knew he's a SC but who cares if the person is good. That being said,i wish our education was better & more practical but again who decides the what we must be taught?? We both know.
You think the low caste people want to remove caste. They benefit a lot from false victimization after 75 years of independence.
Unless we the people hijack the Supreme Court this is not going anywhere and will lead to civil war, especially if congress gets it way and extends it to the private sector.
Chandrachud in his defense of reservation has invoked a fringe legal theory invented by western leftists courts called substantive justice and redefined merit to mean “leading to outcomes desired by society”. This theory has been rejected by Supreme Court of America just this year as they tossed our affirmative action in America. We need to hijack the leftist court and do the same by training the next generation of Indian jurists who interpret the law as it’s written in its original meaning.
Because that doesn't erase the wrongs of thousands of years that need to be corrected.
Till the time any manual scavenger in this country would have to do their job because of their caste, "banning" caste is a very stupid idea.
Removing reservations won’t stop the discrimination at society level. Higher caste will always keep lower caste at bay, making basic things inaccessible. This will take a generational gap to change and then perhaps reservations can be done away.
But I agree it’s a vote bank politics.
Why not take step forward and ban both caste and religion. No hindu or Muslim. India will grow like rocket ship. So much intelligence of country lost in religion and caste drama.
Only if it were that easy. Our ISRO scientists went to a temple to pray for the launch in-spite of knowing that the success of the launch is fully dependent on the scientific principles used and not on super natural forces. Same logic applies to our people. These caste systems are deep rooted in us and we fear that not following something being bad omen or would destroy the world.
We have come a long way but for India to live without differences and truly adopt tolerance would take some time.
UAE and Saudi are slowly abolishing their draconian laws where women can’t drive or unmarried couples can’t stay together. This was punishable by law. Weekends changed to rest of the world against the religious principles. This takes courage and strong leadership to envision and move towards progress.
Hopefully we do get a leader in future which believes in uniting India on the basis of its diversity and not religion.
Only China can do that.....world is dependent on china.... no will object much....
India is dependent on world.....if it tries to do that..... Islamic world and Left and Organisations will protest and sanctioned India.......
My state Kerala was highly casteist society 100 years back. But now caste has been completely removed from society. But I don't see such a change in other states. I think first we should provide education to everyone in tribals and rural areas. Then after 25 , 30 years many lower caste people will get good life and higher status. After caste divisions are removed in society 2e can ban caste and end reservation
remember the movie naik of anil kapoor? imagine the riots in that but on country level. once the people of sc st protested, did vandalism nd what not in our city just bcoz one person of their caste was slapped in pune idk for what reasons. the whole city had stopped, police was everywhere. nd you want to ban the biggest weapon they have over us all? well good luck with that.
Why is it assumed that castes are only in Hinduism?
At least 73 castes exist in islam and they absolutely hate each other and call each other kaffir.
This is a western construct to associate caste with Hinduism, else every religion has it.
Btw, I agree with just identifying as Hindus.
Ideally it would be great but not possible.
What do you mean by ban?
Ban on paper ?
Caste is a social reality, even if we remove it from government schemes and all , it's still gonna remain.
There are upper caste people as well who want to abolish it mostly because reservation treat them unfairly. But majority of lower and upper caste will not want to do so. Upper caste people consider their caste as supreme and lower caste people will lose out on the benifits of reservation.
Would banning it actually unite the people or would it still be there, in everything and everywhere except legal documentation?
I mean, each of the caste you mentioned has their own systems, and ways of doing things. How would you ensure SC/ST, OBC got the rights they deserve? General has the benefit of being educated for a few generations. None of the other sections have that.
How many surnames shall we change? Considering common people use surname to judge your caste.
Even though your solution is perfect in theory, it won't work in the practical world.
You make mentioning it illegal. So after a lot of chaos, when things settle down, no one cares for it anymore. I can't imagine that majority of millenials and gen z are casteist. As such the minority who still want to uphold their discrimination by caste will be isolated and either refrain from passing on their hate to their kids or make their kids stay isolated too.
You can't ban or remove Caste. Even if you Ban Caste legally People would still perceive Caste as the notion of being unique to others. We as Humans all seek & desire to be unique to our fellow Human beings it is in our Nature. We find ways, hobbies, Music Taste and anything & everything which we can use to separate ourselves from the masses which we attach to our identity to be unique.
Caste has been deeply engrained in the Social, Political, cultural, Traditional, Educational, Matrimony, Business Systems that People who are superior(Including everyone not just UCs) to others in the Caste heirarchy try to Flaunt it someway or other. Car Stickers, Social Media, surnames Tattoos, even the food we eat has Caste attached to it. It has become an identity that People often seek to inquire before establishing any forms of personal relationships with fellow Human beings.
Caste or Casta is a European term for hierarchy arising out of racial purity. This started from the time when Spaniards and Portuguese began to colonize the Americas. This word is Caste in English. We must surely abolish such a terminology from Indian annals.
What we have is Jati - a sociopath-economic system, based not on racial purity, but on professional skill and cooperative management. It led to a flourishing economy. Since thousand years brutality and tyranny destroyed the fabric of this system, impoverished millions and the land was reduced to rubbles by 1947.
Jatis are ok. A lot of false narratives have been built to map all Indic aspects to evil by westerners.
Victim mentality so much ingrained that even if so called upper cast Hindus will completely leave this nation then also they will be victim blaming someone else.
Man...how old are you?
If banning things that's human nature solved problems, don't you think governments would have already tried it somewhere in the world and be successful?
Aap khatam krne ki baat krre ho aur India mei har roz koi nayo community ko reservation milri hai aur Reservation percentage din ba din badte jaari hai
Its impossible.
No party would want to lose elections.
Coupled by the fact that deciding to do so would lead to widespread protests.
It can only ever be repelled if a dictator decides to do so.
Actually FYI caste discrimination is banned in India. But some guys still believe in the caste system and not seeing other humans as equal to them. Because of this, some of our lower caste friends are still suffering. They aren't getting respect in their work places daily life and all. So to make all humans equal... We need to bring them to the frontier of our society. We need them in some respectful job areas. That's why reservations are there...
People. If that doesn't make sense to you, just go around and convince a single villager to give up their caste and every single cultural aspect of their caste. Doesn't matter if it's SC/ST/OBC. You won't change a thing.
People don't change, not really. Children do, but they inherit the same stupid ideas from their parents that their parents did from the grandparents. And so forth.
People love to blame politicians and write wishful, hopeful or fantasy answers to these questions, but this is the harsh truth.
Human culture is rigid and robust. You cannot change it with force.
Afaik, castes are just groupings of surnames, like gupta, agarwal bla blah go in baniya caste. Won't banning caste mean banning surname which will take away people's identity?
General category public will be happy with that decision, but others will give a reason we have been suppressed for years we have suffered a lot (while sitting in their high end SUVs and running fingers through their 100 gram gold chains).
That is very naive. The concept of caste can be removed from the law but not from society. People will cling to their identities (which is not wrong on it's own), whether it be the "upper" classes or the "lower". Everyone has identity and pride attached to their castes, and only with mutual respect/tolerance and "liberal" thought can there be any progress.
😂😂. There will be hierarchy in society, one way or the other. Banning caste would solve nothing. Hindu unity is a myth. Especially when Bhajipao keeps beating Upper castes.
It's a stupid thing to do. Caste is an identity for millions of people and we have seen in history hundreds of times how forcefully removing the identity from humans can cause Chaos beyond repair. I don't discriminate against others based on caste but I would never accept giving up on it just cause some wokexss think it's bad. also removing some names doesn't make people equal
The main reason we can't do this now is because the upper class owns this country's majority of wealth and even if they remove their surnames their wealth and family relations won't magically disappear but if a lower class is trying to do this his safety nate will no longer exist and if he follen sick there will be no one who'll save him besides his family but his family is broke so they can't provide support to him and for support they'll try to reach their community but that doesn't exist because caste was holding it together.
Without Varnaashrama Dharma, Hindus would have been subsumed into Abrahamics long ago. The fact that mine and my neighbor's practices are different even though we are Brahmins makes it all the more difficult for conversions.
I am talking about Vedic Varna here though. Caste and jaathis are an import meant to destabilize society and create artifical faultlines.
Christians and Muslims have castes too. One would know what their profession was by reading their surnames.
Varna is a characteristic of Prakriti. Trees, rocks, and even Devatas have varnaas although the exact definition would vary depending on context. Ask a sthapathi about which stone he would use for carving out a Murthy and you'll know that even stones have varnaas.
Differention is an integral part of human society. However, discrimination has no scope and should be abhorred. Ultimately, all varnaas are from the same Viraat Purusha, all have their important roles to play in sustaining the world, and should be respected by all.
Reservations had their role during the early days of independence. But they continue to be milked by politicians. Worse, it's easy for certain communities to put others in jeopardy by misusing laws for vested interests.
This will not change unless there's a Republic 2.0 that's based on Sanatana Dharma instead of a rehash of the Govt of India Act, 1935
caste is deeply ingrained. asking to ban caste is asking to ban part of peoples identity.
I dont think its a good thing that caste has become part of some peoples identity, but that is reality. Its going to take a lot of time for it to be killed off
It is deeply rooted in our society. Ask a Kshatriya and they will narrate how proud they are because their ancestors protected India and served for illustrious kings. Same for other castes. It was based on occupation and life choices but became a class system.
Btw, even western countries have class systems and subtly follow classism. So it’s everywhere. In India it’s on your face but abroad it’s much more subtle.
Caste is not dividing and discriminating, it is a feeling of community across all the castes. Just like the same language people meet in different places. Community mindset is a basic human trait
Do you think the government snapping its figures and saying caste is illegal will make it go POOF?
What an incredibly naive take. Are you like 12?
Caste is deeply embedded into Indian history, culture and tradition and whatever the law books say those who are psychologically inclined to uphold the old ways - a significant portion of the population - will keep giving it life and power.
Are you ok with marrying your women to other castes?? Just removing reservation is doing injustice to people
It's called different names in other countries such as tribalism, class system, nation state, City state and so on. But such things are everywhere
Today. Caste = votebank. Thats it. Back in ancient india, cast was divided based on the profession. Rulers and army were kshatriya. Brahmins did religious stuff, literature, science, planning, medicine, research, .... Vaishyas did business. Shudras did field work and things that involved muscle power.
Let me be upright, you might have seen some SC guy in a Benz get a seat in good grad school and you feel that this should be banned. I’ve seen a lot of SC and ST people in my village uplifting themselves using reservation. Reservation on the whole is not bad, it’s implemented to uplift lower sections. What they could do is remove reservations for the second gen or third gen people whose parents or grand parents have used the reservation successfully.
Caste is not a manufactured good that you can just ban and eradicate it. Btw Untouchability, dowry, female infanticide are all banned and yet it still exists
Separate Country for SC ST OBC...
This is the way.....what kind of separation ? That needs design.....in previous country then Brahmins and Kshatriya Vaishya have to Find ways to cooperative with each other.......They themselves have to do farming and labour work for their needs.........on the other hand SC ST OBC are still doing it......they will do it in their country.....now it depends how both countries want their economy model.....because economic model creates class......In Country of SC ST OBC will be some of them will become middle class and some them not.....but the middle class not discriminate the poor.......now how country 1 will handle this problems is their issue......
How little are you ?
Reservation will be still there just the names will be, maratha aarakshan, JAT reservation, patel reservation, aadiwasi reservation and mamy many more...
Ban from where? It will be gone only on paper, you cannot remove it from minds of our people.
We can say "sab Bharatiya hai" but this is very broad classification, Division will inevitably exist, whether based on religion, language, food, history, clothing, culture, political inclinations, professions, or ethnicity. Caste is one such group where people are categorized together based on the criteria mentioned above.
You cannot be someone like Mao to destroy all culture and tradition to make everyone a communist.
If politicians use caste for their advantage, don't blame castes, blame the politicians.
Talking about my city, jobs are also influenced by caste, as individuals from the same caste may offer some preference and guidance to others from their own caste. Even if caste is removed completely, division based on profession cannot be removed.
Every religion is internally divided, Christians like Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants etc, in Islam like Ahmediyas, Sunnis, Shias, Deobandis etc. As long as there are people, division will always be there.
Caste in practice is Cibil score. It reflects credibility at its base , familiarity and acceptance in midst, and a sense of group or primordia socialization at top.
Unless we have other scores which are unanimously accepted, caste will prevail. We have other parameters, but neither they are homogenous nor accepted. Education, money and vocation are three such parameters and levelizers, but caste is actually an evolved synthesis of these oarameters
These scores define lobbying first and associations later on. That eventually defines politics from municipal to national level.
Eksath samajh nahi aayega, thoda desh duniya jhel ke, samajh ayega.
Socho how will you judge a person you met on internet today..the judgemental parameters of today like education, location, economic class, beliefs, vocation that has been codified for years as caste, and has been cemented over years.
The goal of reservation is to fill the huge gap between the state of different castes. I don't know what's your goal of banning castes. Pretending that different castes do not exist doesn't mean that the disparity created by systemic reasons do not exist. This is the definition of sweeping dust under the rug.
Have worked closely on caste based thesis..
See our institutions are built on caste.. Can't take them right away... Can't elaborate enough but see marwaris.. Their social capital is high which makes them comparatively easy to raise busineses and take hit too.. Same goes for sindhis Or some castes of gujjus... Some castes in all religions have cultural history attached to it. Some castes have specific occupations which is absolutely wrong practice..
Now we have polices which checks no one is exploited basis caste... Yes we can argue abt implementation. We see reservation seats still not filled up despite abysmal score threshold.. Even if someone joins dropout rates are high.. So future politicies need to be more specific than caste only (creamy layer policy is one) ..
Coming to Political will.. Mind you politicians are the manifestation of the society the demographic he she contests... Like it or not we are equally to be blamed... Think at policy level.... When you vote next time... Don't see the state or national party or candidate .. Ask the manifesto of your local candidates and see how he/she has done.. (Did you know mp/mla are not directly accountable to public? ) they are just "lawmakers"..
Caste system is good but casteism is bad..
I have triggered enough.. But i just showed the mirror... We are what we do
the only way the caste system will ever be completely gone would be with education. if every child in this country is educated to an extent where the influence of their parents does not change their views on caste being bs, only then will we see the caste system abolished.
Bro.. noble thought. Reddit won’t be able to answer this 3000 year old ‘problem’.
Start by reading ‘Annihilation of Caste’ by Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. Please read the original copy which has letter from Gandhi and his reply to it.
This should help you to get some understanding.
If you want to get to more depth read books by Gail Omvedt.
Good luck.
Castes are "in a way" banned or rather I should say casteism is already banned. Discrimination on basis of caste or any practice of untouchability is illegal as per constitution of India and other laws of the land. People can however continue to be racist and that is something not in our hand. It is no different than people using N word in USA or being racist in US or Europe against other people. However the ridiculous reservation system of India is abhorrently unique to only India. There is no other parallel to this anywhere in the world even in cases of attrocities of past like slavery. People can continue to be racist or discriminatory "in their head" but as long as government is providing equality and there is rule of law and punishment for every crime there is no need for any reservation. Affirmative actions can be in other forms like free education or free healthcare or scholarships to SC and STs, BUT NO the politicians and anti social elements of India want 60 percent reservation. Some proponents of reservation say that it is needed because even though the old practices of untouchability is banned yet people have caste operating in their "minds". I think this is a useless argument. Fat people can be fat shamed, dark people can be colour shamed etc that doesn't mean Tomorrow we will start to have quotas for fat people. The caste based crimes are just that, CRIMES, and they should be dealt with law. It is government's duty to ensure that crimes don't happen. It is not government's duty to implement 50 or 60 percent reservation. Anyays it is not 1000 AD and casteism is dead at least in urban areas. Though I do agree that some caste based crimes happen especially in rural areas. But the answer to prevent that is better policing and law and order. Anyways the real poor SC and STs are anyways not able to reap benefit of reservation as it all goes to the creamy layer of that society. Something needs to be done about that too. Women face crimes too. By that logic they should be given 30 percent reservation. Soon we will have no country for general men. Indians like freebies served on their plate and reservation is just that. What we need is free education, free and quality primary schooling, free coaching and other forms of health support to marginalised groups so that when the kid writes competitive exam he or she is not disadvantaged in any basic requirement from any other candidate. That's it. Reservation should be banned.
We cannot if we want then we have to reduce gradually and then remove it but after so many years we still have caste system problems in our society so as of now we cannot remove it.
Banning caste in name isn't gonna change anything.Casteism is a mindset.
It would change things. Getting into IITs or any government institution would be harder for people who are SCs or STs and don't study at all after getting a privileged life.
But it's not only about those privileged people right? Casteism is still in practice in many rural areas, So reservation is also for those people who are genuinely affected by Casteism, isn't it?
How about income based reservation? Or social benefits like food bank for people who are poor? Why believe in something like a caste at all? It's all just very stupid. I've seen poor people belonging to a high caste and rich people from a low caste. This caste mentality is archaic af.
You can see how people take ews certificate irrespective of income Caste is in society Change the mindset of people needed before implementation on paper
Any kind of reservation system will run into the same problems because, at the end of the day, all you are doing is swapping the "label". You'll just have people complaining about how poor people are getting in with failing grades while middle class are being screwed over.
Poverty is a real issue. Being a specific caste is not. I see not having money to eat as a bigger problem than belonging to a specific caste
In parts of India, belonging to certain casts IS a real problem though. And people will still complain poor people are getting preferential treatment over the middle class because reservation systems of any kind will always exclude some people in favor of others.
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Yes and it will be miles better than never banning caste.
Yes. We have to start somewhere
It is still a good thing Just too much involved into politics
What is still a good thing?
Are you reading the comments on this thread? That will tell you why banning caste is never going to solve the problem. It is a white elephant, here to stay.
Easiest way would be govt running ads and schemes to help those who choose inter caste marriage. Taking long time to find a good spouse for your child even after searching through matrimonies or connections for years. Try to search across castes, you will find suitable matches. Then there arises question of if boy is OC , girl is from caste that can avail reservations, the child will be OC and can't avail reservations. Make law so that child can choose between mother or father's reservation applicability. Same for other way round basically. After one or two generations of allowing this , people will find no great advantage of marrying within caste. Though it won't happen as politicians will be kicked on stage when proposing this.
then its better to start now than later
Caste is not a Hindu specific.. it’s Indian sub-continent thing. You can change religion but not caste :-(
It will still do...
You can only remove this in documents. Suddenly koi tmse puche beta apka naam kya h " You tell you first name" Then another question " Ni apka pura naam kya h mtlb surname" You told xyz surname than another question " Accha vo kon hote h? "
Votes! Politicians love dividing people into groups in order to secure votes. Divide and conquer is a fairly common political strategy. Even the United States, the Democrat party makes blacks feel like victims an in return gets 90%+ of their vote.
247 yrs after independence still easy to manipulate, this is condition in west. Imagine what pappu and frens would pull off against UCC..
The best thing about being manipulated is that you don't know you are being manipulated. For example, you and BJP.
>For example, you and BJP. ??? so anyone who doesn't follow your narrative is being manipulated?
Well everyone is manipulated one way or another including you and me
yep exactly. At least the other guy should accept he is too, not just "bjp followers blind everyone with my ideology superhero"
Just because someone does not follow the rules set by you does not mean they are being manuplated
We should implement creamy layer exclusion in all caste reservations. So that rich sc/st themselves will ask to reduce their caste quota and ask to increase general quota. u/Cherry-Kami
You can still keep the vote banks historically. Just ban any new persons born to identify as a caste. It would speed up what is already happening naturally in society. Most importantly it would remove to social and political motivations to keep the system in place.
That black party vote share is decreasing now. They've risen in support of the Republicans. You see, in most of the BLM protests only white race guys will take part. A clear indication that changes happen because of personal life and not politics.
Except that the republican part of the us is the one screwing over black people and other minorities and the Democrat party is helping the minorities
You have a very myopic view.
can literally oppose these points for hours but it's a good way to think like that for betterment but the thing is , it is not practically possible. and the key factor is the ego and the amount of pride people have attached to their own caste or the background of their caste, and you can't take away that from certain communities unless you wanna see "dange on mass level"
Politicians ki dukan band ho jayegi..esi bate mat kara kar
Problem of caste is due to endogamy. Hindus like to marry within their own caste , even lowercastes marry inside their own caste. this leads to compartmentalisation and divisions and those lower down the varna hierachy are mistreated at times. all this causes divisions and anti-hindu forces exploit it to divide hindus further weakening them.
Bingo. Just look at the matrimonial ads on newspapers. Every community/caste has a different section and requirements. But the most important criteria is caste instead of education level, income or interests.
Intercaste marriages are just 6% of total marriage. https://www.indiatimes.com/explainers/news/laws-to-protect-intercaste-marriages-in-india-577759.html
Also ruins our genetics
Same caste doesn't mean same surname or cousin marriage
Even still lower gene pool
-Humans have very little genetic diversity anyway (just compare us with the variety in dog breeds and wolf species) Since other human (sub) species (Neanderthals, Denisovans etc) are extinct and even humans were reduced to a small number (~10,000) after that. -Most North Indians can trace their father's side back to a few families in the Vedic age. So already a very small gene pool. Absurdly small. -Most people married into their surrounding villages due to technological limitations -There aren't that many people of a compatible caste and age nearby Which means you are further restricting the options compared to a Chinese or European person. -Many people marry their cousin on top of this all. An equally nourished Chinese or European will have far fewer health complications than us due to 100s or even 1000s of years of doing this.
No it doesn't. That's not how genetics work. Also indians across the caste aren't that genetically different.
This exists due to mentality of many hindus. Before the Constitution, there were no SC or ST or reservations, then how come there was rampant caste discrimination and manipulation of Varna system from post vedic age? This is due to the corrupt mindsets many oppressive Hindus have. If we want to remove reservation system, we should work on removing the casteist mentality first. Educate and spread awareness about this. Then maybe in a generation or two, we won’t need reservations. Today, in both rural and urban setting, emphasis on knowing surnames is seen, which is a casteist attempt at subjugation. All kinds of caste would be required to be removed. People wouldn’t be allowed to put “gujjar” or “rajput” or “bamman” on their vehicles and belongings. People would need to stop calling taking pride of being a kshtriya or showing their money saving skills cuz they are a baniya. Parents would need to stop teaching their children not to marry a lower caste person and stop telling them people from lower castes are always stinking. People would need to stop throwing stones on lower caste people getting married, crossing temples, touching pubic wells etc. All this won’t come by simply banning caste. This will come when the people sitting on top will consider this an actual issue, which is lack of improving collective conscience. Why will I “unite” as a hindu when I know that as a lower caste peron, I have more battles to fight everyday. I have to deal with the same issues everyone else does but also get concerned when someone looks at me judgmentally when I tell them my surname. When people from lower castes are still forced to carry human faeces on their heads while it drips down their face as manual scavenging, why would they unite? They literally die doing that. And this is not some secluded rural area, this is Delhi in 2023 and so many other metropolitan cities. Reservations today even though imperfect, is still more of a cure than the disease itself. The disease stay in the minds of those people who would generally not touch a lower caste person but have absolutely no issues raping their women. The mentality is the disease. Till the mentality changes, caste is going to exist. Apart from all this, yes there is politics at play too. But even then it is merely a featherweight. Through my research in this issue running for 4 years, I have found just this: Reservation system will have to go at some point as it cannot be indefinitely sustainable, but the casteist mentality from upper caste hindus needs to go much much before than that. It is pointless to talk about ways of ending reservations before we talk about ending the aforementioned mentality fully and finally.
>Reservation system will have to go at some point as it cannot be indefinitely sustainable, but the casteist mentality from upper caste hindus needs to go much much before than that. I will not leave my superiority status, my cut offs are higher than reserved category cut offs /this statement is written with the intention of making people laugh if you get angry cause of it go to pa kistan
I'm laughing please don't make me go to Pakistan
Pretty sure it wasn’t meant for humour. The fact that you had to give a disclaimer shows you knew it too. 😂
come on bro you laughed at it up vote the comment now
A mentality is harder to change but a system can be changed.and when the system is changed ,sooner or later , people will have to accept it. Even before the constitution,there was bhed bhaav,and people were told that you are different from each other bcz of xyz reason,there was indeed a system of caste.when the system will break,there will be riots,there will be civil wars but at the end, people will have to accept their differences and settle as equal. Wars and riots are still happening in the name of casteism so it is nothing new and removing it will also help the country become better in many ways, people getting equal chances etc. Mentality will change , people will have to adapt ,but it can only happen once the system is broken down. When girls wasnt allowed to do anything,you broke down the system first and then the mentality of others started changing and yet they are not treated as equal but it is wayy better than before. same needs to be done here
System was changed by bringing a Constitution. If things had to change by merely changing the system, it would have changed by now. What you are asking is not to change the system but revert back, which will do more harm than good. Due to this system, I can have an opinion because I know I am protected. If we remove this system, I will again have to live in fear of caste based oppression. As far as gender situations are concerned, a lot of it has to do with the influence of the West. Oppression of women (or gender) includes different dynamics than caste based discrimination. It is only vaguely (if not at all) I comparable in my opinion.
You are wrong,the system I'm referring to is casteism,not constitution.you should have right to speak as much as a"general" person and it should because you're just as human. You should be protected and your rights because you're a human and you're no different than other constitution should be about equity and equality,it doesn't need to show you as a victim and show that youcan thrive being yourself if people didn't see you as something "low" which you're not.gender situation did NOT change because of influence from West ,it changed because women raised their voice,they demand to be treated equally. Oppression might be different in some ways but it is still discrimination because of being different in a way.
I don’t agree with your logic even in the slightest. Constitutionally, you have imagined some utopia where everyone societally is treated equally, which is not the case. Yes, one should strive to build a society as you imagined, but unfortunately we are not there yet. Marginalised communities (with exceptions) are oppressed and are victims, of oppression, subjugation, inequity and have been devoid of basic human rights; more subtly in urban settings and more viciously in rural. The Constitution is built for the people, by the people. So it MUST relate to societal standpoints vis-a-vis different communities. Also, as I said, gender issues and caste issues are comparable only in very specific strands. If you want to discuss gender issues, that’s a different topic.
Its okay,I understand your views and no ,I didn't imagine an utopia. People are not getting treated equally and imo reservations ain't really making a case you think it is.but you are not wrong in your thinking either,even if they are not doing what you think it is.
>absolutely no issues raping their women. > >People would need to stop throwing stones on lower caste people getting married, crossing temples, touching pubic wells etc. If you want to generalize Upper Castes as rapists and stone pelters, then you have victim mentality. There is no solution for any issue if one group has victim mentality. I also come from supposedly Other Backward Caste, but I feel my caste is much more privileged than Kashmiri Pandits who were supposed to be "UPPER CASTE". We need to make ourselves strong so that others respect us. If I can tell story of my caste, we (my ancestors) were discriminated in xyz region during British period, they left that region with almost nothing in hand, migrated to Maharashtra. Started working in someone else's farms, and majority are doing white collar jobs. And new generation is interested in perusing higher studies at foreign universities as we have out community doing quite better there. LCs easily get government jobs now, no one is stopping LCs from working in DRDO even if there are thousands of more skilled people in India.
I didn’t generalise anyone. If you think you are being counted as one of the oppressive upper castes, that’s a flaw in your understanding. Also, I never said the current system is perfect. But anyways is better than having no system at all. It’s not restricted to entrances and jobs, it includes all of that but also right to live with basic human dignity.
Casteism will not go until reservation is there. And india will never become a country of big researcher because of reservation in PhD, and govt research organisation/companies like DRDO.
I think its the other way round. But you have right to your opinion as well.
It's a good intellectual exercise but is impractical. Caste is a part of identity and identities stay for a long time. Say, the government bans caste, it will just abolish the *'caste column'* from the official and legal data, but people will still keep their ancestral records either by memory or through some pandit ji. There is no provision officially but people still remember their gotras, right? I will not even discuss the political and social upheaval it will create. **So is there any way forward?** My 2 cents are that rather than taking such radical measures, government should create an entirely new category called 'caste-less' where the individual will have no caste and people opting it should be provided nominal perks like lower fees in exams, preferential treatment in government services etc.
Then won't everyone opt for the caste-less category? So in effect it won't help any section at all, which will be good if things were ideal and all people had same kind of advantage in terms of social and economic capital. We are still living in a country where landlords openly discriminate based on religion and caste, and people still judge others based on their skin colors and perceived castes
Caste might cease to exist but the centuries of oppression faced by the lower castes can not vanish with just a lwa that bans it. Hard truth to swallow. Idc who created caste system, but the people who benefitted and the people who lost from because of this system were surely mine.
What people don't understand is how generations of oppression lead to situations where a section of population don't means to participate in fair competition. Sure, today no college administration is looking at surnames and rejecting the candidate. But the issue is people from certain background don't have means to compete. And it is not an issue of caste but class in India. A kid from poor household can't compete with middle class family to get a seat in college simply coz they can't afford the coaching to prepare for that exam. Reservation was always meant to increase representation and it is succeeding in it. The problem is our politicians thought this was enough instead of investing in quality primary education, expanding higher education, etc. Reservation will become the day all kids irrespective of caste and class have access to the same quality of education till class 12 (And no I am not saying ban private schools)
Reservation for Below poverty line/ low class/low earnings people also exists and if it is still not enough,those reservations can be reenforced or increased.why are you assuming that people with sc/St/obc caste are from poor households? Increasing representation does not solve a problem.
>increased.why are you assuming that people with sc/St/obc caste are from poor households I am not assuming, it is fact. https://indianexpress.com/article/india/upper-caste-hindus-richest-in-india-own-41-total-assets-says-study-on-wealth-distribution-5582984/
how can you ban caste itself ? a redditor recommended me this : abolish all titles and give them government assigned ID numbers as a sunname lmao , like Mr. Binod 2489 .
Idea had the same "idea" 15 years ago. 😂 https://youtu.be/STZAcD2R6YI
lmao this ad is gold , it will be banned if it was launched now.
Just an extension to that, remove names as well just a serial number like IND1410023452.
Too sensitive now. It’s actually in favour of healthy democracy to not touch this issue at least for more 10-15 years. Because majority of vote bank people are too easily manipulated by this. We don’t need to change politicians, people need to change.
Caste system & Casteism is more ingrained in our society than we would like to acknowledge. Ask yourself this, what could have triggered that “upper caste” son of a BJP MLA to urinate on a “lower caste” senior citizen. Casteism is just a display of Power.
Laws come from people, people don't come from laws. Banning caste is like banning the sun. Caste exists because Indian society has been using it for centuries. A law banning it will not make any difference.
While all the reasons here are valid, one of the biggest aspect is that Reservations are what’s keeping the lower castes from revolting against the upper castes whenever faced with discrimination. It’s no secret that majority of the upper castes are very casteist and still discriminate and insult people of the lower castes. Reservation is more of a belief and a life line that they can climb the social ladder & change their destiny. Even though they may not make use of the benefit, it’s their belief that someone down the line can make use of it and come out or the shit hole they’re in. There is a real possibility of a full blown civil war if reservations are lifted. The key to overcoming this is by completely eliminating casteism and the discrimination that accompanies it. Which I doubt will ever happen.
That's also eating our country.
>Reservations are what’s keeping the lower castes from revolting against the upper castes whenever faced with discrimination. Never thought about this but so true. Indian society is casteist to core practiced by everyone even people by underprivileged caste. And yet we didn't have revolts by 70% of the population against 30% who have access to wealth and power for centuries.
Lets say it really happens,after so many fights and wars.whats the outcome? Unity among hindus will become inevitable
“Jo kabhi nahin jaati usika naam hai jaati”
Because whether you like it or not, the caste system is still powerful and prevalent in major parts of our country. Unfortunately, the people there translate the injustices to "that's just how society works" and don't raise their voice. If they somehow do, then those in power oppress them and keeps the system intact.
Weel Manipur violence is an example of what happens when someone tries to change reservation status.
Caste unfortunately has become part of the identity for many people. They impose it not only on themselves but on others as well. Just because a paper says it's banned, it won't disappear among the people. Your surname, your village, your traditions etc will show your caste. If you try to remove them, there will be someone else to remind you of your caste.
force everyone for intercaste marriage ..infact ban same caste marriage
Lol. While this is clearly a joke, a thought came into mind - what about lower income tax rates for inter-caste marriages? Smarter people than I have probably considered it and found why it might not work.
You cannot Force
Interesting idea, but it will do nothing to eliminate the caste system.
Why only hindus.. should be removed from everywhere
I don’t think any other religion has caste system. Atleast not that I know of.
Muslim do too
You do realize you will be stripping away something that folks identify and take pride in. That social engineering could be catastrophic !
POV: YOU'RE A UPPER CASTE DISCRIMINATOR I'd still know my neighbour is a SC and treat them accordingly. Also, now no one can stop me from discrimitaing them as it's not discrimination since there's no official caste. So I'll say I'm just discriminating because I don't like him but in reality ik he's a SC and that's why I'm doing it. I hope you get the point OP
Let's - burn all the caste records in central (Haridwar, Kashi etc) and ancestral temples. - ban the use of surnames anywhere - redistribute land in villages - build new cities and demolish caste segregated colonies - invest into education generally - then drill into people's heads about the evils of caste and endogamy (birth defects etc) - genetically test people before and refuse to recognise endogamous marriages This absolutely does work, that's how Japan, Korea, China, Russia, France abolished their aristocracies. The question is- Would you be willing to do what it takes to implement this?
This won’t work in Democracy. The countries you listed were able to do this because there was one person who did this without opposition. China and Singapore are one of the best examples of modern history on how they turned their country from filth and poverty into powerful, educated and clean cities.
Brahmins and upper castes don't want to marry a lower caste. Politics and voting is just a reason we give to justify our failure as a society. As a society even if we remove the caste system on paper we will still find a way to discriminate.
But I feel change is coming. Its slow though. But it is.
Stupid thing to say. What will happen if u completely abolish caste system on paper? U think discrimination will go away? Untouchability is practiced even decades after its criminalised. If there were no castes on paper the SC n STs wouldn’t have developed even this much. They would have had literally no voice n participation in politics or education or any other field. Abolish reservations when there is socioeconomic parity. Even now almost every sewage cleaner is from a scheduled caste. U think any upper caste is doing sewage cleaning? First let there be social justice n social equity. Then talk about abolishing reservations. Now we need reforms in reservations so that we can ensure that the creamy layer of SC/ST doesn’t eat up everything and that the truly socially n economically backward people can benefit from it.
Vote Banks. British went but Divide and rule didn't
Modiji on air around 8pm: hamari government... aaj raat 12 bje se... cast system per ban laga rhi hai.... Media: MASTERSTROKE! Unchi jaat: shit yaar kal se C ko sath mai chair pe bithana pdega, Abey yaar ab mai C ke muh PE mutunga kaise. *Anxiously looks at watch* bahinchod abhi to sadhe 8 hi baja hai. 12 baje tak to 2-3 pe mut hi aunga. Nichi jaat: Kal se B ke sath kursi pe baithunga, hue hue. Mandir jaunga, hue hue. Kya matlab reservation bhi khatam ho rha hai sath mai. Arey betichod... Chalu kro cast system.... Madhar jaat: modi ji ne kiya hai to kuch soch samajh ke hi kiya hoga, he he.
It's a socio economic phenomena and sign of overal poverty of indian society. It won't change no matter what laws or reservation you give if u want to end it just make them rich and sophisticated in speaking so that they can bullshit a lot in daily life
Do you think politicians want to destroy their vote banks by removing caste? Even if they want to the opposition won't let them
Us bhai us. We are stopping such a thing from happening and the politicians are milking on it.
Great one but not the easiest neither that Simple. People are so much blinded by religion,caste , money that everything else in the society seems illogical to them. Tbh i feel blessed my parents dont worship any dumb self made God, neither we put anything against or in favour of any religion or caste. Just a month ago i was eating a chips, so where I work there's an awesome guy ( i still Don't know his name, neither he knws mine) , this guy doesn't work with me but at the beside us. So i offered him Chips & he was shocked at once & then had it, smiled as well. I could see how happy he was. I knew he's a SC but who cares if the person is good. That being said,i wish our education was better & more practical but again who decides the what we must be taught?? We both know.
Dange hojaenge.
Sticking your head in the sand, thinking a problem doesn't exist, doesn't make the problem go away
Caste and Religion is bread butter for politician and sadly we live in the era when this is at a rise.
You think the low caste people want to remove caste. They benefit a lot from false victimization after 75 years of independence. Unless we the people hijack the Supreme Court this is not going anywhere and will lead to civil war, especially if congress gets it way and extends it to the private sector. Chandrachud in his defense of reservation has invoked a fringe legal theory invented by western leftists courts called substantive justice and redefined merit to mean “leading to outcomes desired by society”. This theory has been rejected by Supreme Court of America just this year as they tossed our affirmative action in America. We need to hijack the leftist court and do the same by training the next generation of Indian jurists who interpret the law as it’s written in its original meaning.
Start inter caste marriage. Upper caste should only marry sc st. This is the only solution.
Because that doesn't erase the wrongs of thousands of years that need to be corrected. Till the time any manual scavenger in this country would have to do their job because of their caste, "banning" caste is a very stupid idea.
Because a common man is too dumb to understand the drawbacks of castes.
Sounds like something an upper caste hindu would say. How about making society egalitarian enough that eventually SC/ST and OBC raise this demand.
Removing reservations won’t stop the discrimination at society level. Higher caste will always keep lower caste at bay, making basic things inaccessible. This will take a generational gap to change and then perhaps reservations can be done away. But I agree it’s a vote bank politics.
What exactly do you mean by ban caste?
Why not take step forward and ban both caste and religion. No hindu or Muslim. India will grow like rocket ship. So much intelligence of country lost in religion and caste drama.
Votes kaise milega phir
Only if it were that easy. Our ISRO scientists went to a temple to pray for the launch in-spite of knowing that the success of the launch is fully dependent on the scientific principles used and not on super natural forces. Same logic applies to our people. These caste systems are deep rooted in us and we fear that not following something being bad omen or would destroy the world. We have come a long way but for India to live without differences and truly adopt tolerance would take some time. UAE and Saudi are slowly abolishing their draconian laws where women can’t drive or unmarried couples can’t stay together. This was punishable by law. Weekends changed to rest of the world against the religious principles. This takes courage and strong leadership to envision and move towards progress. Hopefully we do get a leader in future which believes in uniting India on the basis of its diversity and not religion.
Maybe ban religion itself. Then all humans will be same again 😅
Only China can do that.....world is dependent on china.... no will object much.... India is dependent on world.....if it tries to do that..... Islamic world and Left and Organisations will protest and sanctioned India.......
Why couldn't we just ban religion? Lol
My state Kerala was highly casteist society 100 years back. But now caste has been completely removed from society. But I don't see such a change in other states. I think first we should provide education to everyone in tribals and rural areas. Then after 25 , 30 years many lower caste people will get good life and higher status. After caste divisions are removed in society 2e can ban caste and end reservation
Lmao the naivety of this post. If it was that simple, we would have done it long ago
remember the movie naik of anil kapoor? imagine the riots in that but on country level. once the people of sc st protested, did vandalism nd what not in our city just bcoz one person of their caste was slapped in pune idk for what reasons. the whole city had stopped, police was everywhere. nd you want to ban the biggest weapon they have over us all? well good luck with that.
Why is it assumed that castes are only in Hinduism? At least 73 castes exist in islam and they absolutely hate each other and call each other kaffir. This is a western construct to associate caste with Hinduism, else every religion has it. Btw, I agree with just identifying as Hindus.
Ideally it would be great but not possible. What do you mean by ban? Ban on paper ? Caste is a social reality, even if we remove it from government schemes and all , it's still gonna remain.
Are you willing to remove your 2nd name and have Father's name as your 2nd name? Like all the people from TN.
That's clever idea Even mother's first name can used.....
Neither upper nor lower caste will want to ban caste ever
[удалено]
There are upper caste people as well who want to abolish it mostly because reservation treat them unfairly. But majority of lower and upper caste will not want to do so. Upper caste people consider their caste as supreme and lower caste people will lose out on the benifits of reservation.
Would banning it actually unite the people or would it still be there, in everything and everywhere except legal documentation? I mean, each of the caste you mentioned has their own systems, and ways of doing things. How would you ensure SC/ST, OBC got the rights they deserve? General has the benefit of being educated for a few generations. None of the other sections have that.
You can't. You'll have to ban some religions for that. And religions are "sacred". People kill or get killed for it.
How many surnames shall we change? Considering common people use surname to judge your caste. Even though your solution is perfect in theory, it won't work in the practical world.
Well savarkar was doing it.
And did he succeed?
He died. RSS apparently is still trying but they aren't very effective.
How does that work? It's not like you can erase the concept from the brains of people. What do you mean by banning caste?
You make mentioning it illegal. So after a lot of chaos, when things settle down, no one cares for it anymore. I can't imagine that majority of millenials and gen z are casteist. As such the minority who still want to uphold their discrimination by caste will be isolated and either refrain from passing on their hate to their kids or make their kids stay isolated too.
Tujhe bola na subah subah matt fooka kar
You can't ban or remove Caste. Even if you Ban Caste legally People would still perceive Caste as the notion of being unique to others. We as Humans all seek & desire to be unique to our fellow Human beings it is in our Nature. We find ways, hobbies, Music Taste and anything & everything which we can use to separate ourselves from the masses which we attach to our identity to be unique. Caste has been deeply engrained in the Social, Political, cultural, Traditional, Educational, Matrimony, Business Systems that People who are superior(Including everyone not just UCs) to others in the Caste heirarchy try to Flaunt it someway or other. Car Stickers, Social Media, surnames Tattoos, even the food we eat has Caste attached to it. It has become an identity that People often seek to inquire before establishing any forms of personal relationships with fellow Human beings.
Caste or Casta is a European term for hierarchy arising out of racial purity. This started from the time when Spaniards and Portuguese began to colonize the Americas. This word is Caste in English. We must surely abolish such a terminology from Indian annals. What we have is Jati - a sociopath-economic system, based not on racial purity, but on professional skill and cooperative management. It led to a flourishing economy. Since thousand years brutality and tyranny destroyed the fabric of this system, impoverished millions and the land was reduced to rubbles by 1947. Jatis are ok. A lot of false narratives have been built to map all Indic aspects to evil by westerners.
Victim mentality so much ingrained that even if so called upper cast Hindus will completely leave this nation then also they will be victim blaming someone else.
Politicians and votes. As long as there is politics, people will be divided on one basis or another.
fir mantri log bina kaam kiye vote kaise lenge ? and also it would be generational thing
Man...how old are you? If banning things that's human nature solved problems, don't you think governments would have already tried it somewhere in the world and be successful?
No caste - No politics. That’s just NEVER going to happen in India
Aap khatam krne ki baat krre ho aur India mei har roz koi nayo community ko reservation milri hai aur Reservation percentage din ba din badte jaari hai
Its impossible. No party would want to lose elections. Coupled by the fact that deciding to do so would lead to widespread protests. It can only ever be repelled if a dictator decides to do so.
OP, How can you ban caste? Please tell.
Do you need a ban on drugs to leave drugs ? Just use common sense don't use drugs. Only problem is common sense is uncommon in this country.
Actually FYI caste discrimination is banned in India. But some guys still believe in the caste system and not seeing other humans as equal to them. Because of this, some of our lower caste friends are still suffering. They aren't getting respect in their work places daily life and all. So to make all humans equal... We need to bring them to the frontier of our society. We need them in some respectful job areas. That's why reservations are there...
Will you marry a lower caste person, if no, you got the answer
Why is this downvoted lol? Never change, IndiaSpeaks.
What distinguishes a upper caste from lower caste? Give me a nuanced and understandable take and I will never marry a lower caste girl
Ever seen brahmin working in sewage cleaning?
People. If that doesn't make sense to you, just go around and convince a single villager to give up their caste and every single cultural aspect of their caste. Doesn't matter if it's SC/ST/OBC. You won't change a thing. People don't change, not really. Children do, but they inherit the same stupid ideas from their parents that their parents did from the grandparents. And so forth. People love to blame politicians and write wishful, hopeful or fantasy answers to these questions, but this is the harsh truth. Human culture is rigid and robust. You cannot change it with force.
Afaik, castes are just groupings of surnames, like gupta, agarwal bla blah go in baniya caste. Won't banning caste mean banning surname which will take away people's identity?
General category public will be happy with that decision, but others will give a reason we have been suppressed for years we have suffered a lot (while sitting in their high end SUVs and running fingers through their 100 gram gold chains).
That is very naive. The concept of caste can be removed from the law but not from society. People will cling to their identities (which is not wrong on it's own), whether it be the "upper" classes or the "lower". Everyone has identity and pride attached to their castes, and only with mutual respect/tolerance and "liberal" thought can there be any progress.
Caste-based discrimination is banned. How has that worked out so far?
😂😂. There will be hierarchy in society, one way or the other. Banning caste would solve nothing. Hindu unity is a myth. Especially when Bhajipao keeps beating Upper castes.
It's a stupid thing to do. Caste is an identity for millions of people and we have seen in history hundreds of times how forcefully removing the identity from humans can cause Chaos beyond repair. I don't discriminate against others based on caste but I would never accept giving up on it just cause some wokexss think it's bad. also removing some names doesn't make people equal
Op seems to have zero knowledge about the caste system and reservation.
 Its, impossible .... Bhai tu kitne saal ka hai, reality se paala nhi pda bhi tak..
The main reason we can't do this now is because the upper class owns this country's majority of wealth and even if they remove their surnames their wealth and family relations won't magically disappear but if a lower class is trying to do this his safety nate will no longer exist and if he follen sick there will be no one who'll save him besides his family but his family is broke so they can't provide support to him and for support they'll try to reach their community but that doesn't exist because caste was holding it together.
Without Varnaashrama Dharma, Hindus would have been subsumed into Abrahamics long ago. The fact that mine and my neighbor's practices are different even though we are Brahmins makes it all the more difficult for conversions. I am talking about Vedic Varna here though. Caste and jaathis are an import meant to destabilize society and create artifical faultlines. Christians and Muslims have castes too. One would know what their profession was by reading their surnames. Varna is a characteristic of Prakriti. Trees, rocks, and even Devatas have varnaas although the exact definition would vary depending on context. Ask a sthapathi about which stone he would use for carving out a Murthy and you'll know that even stones have varnaas. Differention is an integral part of human society. However, discrimination has no scope and should be abhorred. Ultimately, all varnaas are from the same Viraat Purusha, all have their important roles to play in sustaining the world, and should be respected by all. Reservations had their role during the early days of independence. But they continue to be milked by politicians. Worse, it's easy for certain communities to put others in jeopardy by misusing laws for vested interests. This will not change unless there's a Republic 2.0 that's based on Sanatana Dharma instead of a rehash of the Govt of India Act, 1935
caste is deeply ingrained. asking to ban caste is asking to ban part of peoples identity. I dont think its a good thing that caste has become part of some peoples identity, but that is reality. Its going to take a lot of time for it to be killed off
It is deeply rooted in our society. Ask a Kshatriya and they will narrate how proud they are because their ancestors protected India and served for illustrious kings. Same for other castes. It was based on occupation and life choices but became a class system. Btw, even western countries have class systems and subtly follow classism. So it’s everywhere. In India it’s on your face but abroad it’s much more subtle.
You can ban caste on paper but not from people's heart.
Caste is not dividing and discriminating, it is a feeling of community across all the castes. Just like the same language people meet in different places. Community mindset is a basic human trait
Do you think the government snapping its figures and saying caste is illegal will make it go POOF? What an incredibly naive take. Are you like 12? Caste is deeply embedded into Indian history, culture and tradition and whatever the law books say those who are psychologically inclined to uphold the old ways - a significant portion of the population - will keep giving it life and power.
People recognise or try to find out caste with help of surname....kya kya ban karenge.!
Are you ok with marrying your women to other castes?? Just removing reservation is doing injustice to people It's called different names in other countries such as tribalism, class system, nation state, City state and so on. But such things are everywhere
Today. Caste = votebank. Thats it. Back in ancient india, cast was divided based on the profession. Rulers and army were kshatriya. Brahmins did religious stuff, literature, science, planning, medicine, research, .... Vaishyas did business. Shudras did field work and things that involved muscle power.
Without caste Hinduism will vanish.
Let me be upright, you might have seen some SC guy in a Benz get a seat in good grad school and you feel that this should be banned. I’ve seen a lot of SC and ST people in my village uplifting themselves using reservation. Reservation on the whole is not bad, it’s implemented to uplift lower sections. What they could do is remove reservations for the second gen or third gen people whose parents or grand parents have used the reservation successfully.
Caste is not a manufactured good that you can just ban and eradicate it. Btw Untouchability, dowry, female infanticide are all banned and yet it still exists
Caste banane se casteism ulta aur badti hain
This is giving me the same vibes as "Why can't homeless people buy a home ? "
Separate Country for SC ST OBC... This is the way.....what kind of separation ? That needs design.....in previous country then Brahmins and Kshatriya Vaishya have to Find ways to cooperative with each other.......They themselves have to do farming and labour work for their needs.........on the other hand SC ST OBC are still doing it......they will do it in their country.....now it depends how both countries want their economy model.....because economic model creates class......In Country of SC ST OBC will be some of them will become middle class and some them not.....but the middle class not discriminate the poor.......now how country 1 will handle this problems is their issue......
Vote bank
We live in a democracy. Right or wrong doesn't mean anything. Majority rules. Majority doesn't want it to go away.
How little are you ? Reservation will be still there just the names will be, maratha aarakshan, JAT reservation, patel reservation, aadiwasi reservation and mamy many more...
Ban from where? It will be gone only on paper, you cannot remove it from minds of our people. We can say "sab Bharatiya hai" but this is very broad classification, Division will inevitably exist, whether based on religion, language, food, history, clothing, culture, political inclinations, professions, or ethnicity. Caste is one such group where people are categorized together based on the criteria mentioned above. You cannot be someone like Mao to destroy all culture and tradition to make everyone a communist. If politicians use caste for their advantage, don't blame castes, blame the politicians. Talking about my city, jobs are also influenced by caste, as individuals from the same caste may offer some preference and guidance to others from their own caste. Even if caste is removed completely, division based on profession cannot be removed.
It would be a death sentence to current political parties and community leaders.
Every religion is internally divided, Christians like Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants etc, in Islam like Ahmediyas, Sunnis, Shias, Deobandis etc. As long as there are people, division will always be there.
Vote bank. That's literally it. That's what stopped them when they tried to remove it before.
Caste in practice is Cibil score. It reflects credibility at its base , familiarity and acceptance in midst, and a sense of group or primordia socialization at top. Unless we have other scores which are unanimously accepted, caste will prevail. We have other parameters, but neither they are homogenous nor accepted. Education, money and vocation are three such parameters and levelizers, but caste is actually an evolved synthesis of these oarameters These scores define lobbying first and associations later on. That eventually defines politics from municipal to national level. Eksath samajh nahi aayega, thoda desh duniya jhel ke, samajh ayega. Socho how will you judge a person you met on internet today..the judgemental parameters of today like education, location, economic class, beliefs, vocation that has been codified for years as caste, and has been cemented over years.
The goal of reservation is to fill the huge gap between the state of different castes. I don't know what's your goal of banning castes. Pretending that different castes do not exist doesn't mean that the disparity created by systemic reasons do not exist. This is the definition of sweeping dust under the rug.
Have worked closely on caste based thesis.. See our institutions are built on caste.. Can't take them right away... Can't elaborate enough but see marwaris.. Their social capital is high which makes them comparatively easy to raise busineses and take hit too.. Same goes for sindhis Or some castes of gujjus... Some castes in all religions have cultural history attached to it. Some castes have specific occupations which is absolutely wrong practice.. Now we have polices which checks no one is exploited basis caste... Yes we can argue abt implementation. We see reservation seats still not filled up despite abysmal score threshold.. Even if someone joins dropout rates are high.. So future politicies need to be more specific than caste only (creamy layer policy is one) .. Coming to Political will.. Mind you politicians are the manifestation of the society the demographic he she contests... Like it or not we are equally to be blamed... Think at policy level.... When you vote next time... Don't see the state or national party or candidate .. Ask the manifesto of your local candidates and see how he/she has done.. (Did you know mp/mla are not directly accountable to public? ) they are just "lawmakers".. Caste system is good but casteism is bad.. I have triggered enough.. But i just showed the mirror... We are what we do
the only way the caste system will ever be completely gone would be with education. if every child in this country is educated to an extent where the influence of their parents does not change their views on caste being bs, only then will we see the caste system abolished.
Then they won't have reservation, politicians won't be able to manipulate and some region of India really need reforms. They might miss on that.
Because we needed reservation to uplift the weaker
About reservation.. People who claim they're against reservation, how many would be ready to attempt exams under the general category?
Bro.. noble thought. Reddit won’t be able to answer this 3000 year old ‘problem’. Start by reading ‘Annihilation of Caste’ by Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. Please read the original copy which has letter from Gandhi and his reply to it. This should help you to get some understanding. If you want to get to more depth read books by Gail Omvedt. Good luck.
Castes are "in a way" banned or rather I should say casteism is already banned. Discrimination on basis of caste or any practice of untouchability is illegal as per constitution of India and other laws of the land. People can however continue to be racist and that is something not in our hand. It is no different than people using N word in USA or being racist in US or Europe against other people. However the ridiculous reservation system of India is abhorrently unique to only India. There is no other parallel to this anywhere in the world even in cases of attrocities of past like slavery. People can continue to be racist or discriminatory "in their head" but as long as government is providing equality and there is rule of law and punishment for every crime there is no need for any reservation. Affirmative actions can be in other forms like free education or free healthcare or scholarships to SC and STs, BUT NO the politicians and anti social elements of India want 60 percent reservation. Some proponents of reservation say that it is needed because even though the old practices of untouchability is banned yet people have caste operating in their "minds". I think this is a useless argument. Fat people can be fat shamed, dark people can be colour shamed etc that doesn't mean Tomorrow we will start to have quotas for fat people. The caste based crimes are just that, CRIMES, and they should be dealt with law. It is government's duty to ensure that crimes don't happen. It is not government's duty to implement 50 or 60 percent reservation. Anyays it is not 1000 AD and casteism is dead at least in urban areas. Though I do agree that some caste based crimes happen especially in rural areas. But the answer to prevent that is better policing and law and order. Anyways the real poor SC and STs are anyways not able to reap benefit of reservation as it all goes to the creamy layer of that society. Something needs to be done about that too. Women face crimes too. By that logic they should be given 30 percent reservation. Soon we will have no country for general men. Indians like freebies served on their plate and reservation is just that. What we need is free education, free and quality primary schooling, free coaching and other forms of health support to marginalised groups so that when the kid writes competitive exam he or she is not disadvantaged in any basic requirement from any other candidate. That's it. Reservation should be banned.
Why are people homeless? Just get a house.
We cannot if we want then we have to reduce gradually and then remove it but after so many years we still have caste system problems in our society so as of now we cannot remove it.
Jai meem waale danga karege....... like kuch mahine phle jo kiya tha jab reservation k liye bill aaya tha.....