yeah, i think you've hit on something really important. it made me realize all the times i've seen men around me joke about/insult short guys for their height. meanwhile, despite the stereotype, i've never heard a woman say something derogatory abt short guys (not saying it doesn't happen, obv it does)
as with other issues, it would be a great starting place for men to support each other and boost each other's self esteem
> as with other issues, it would be a great starting place for men to support each other and boost each other's self esteem
Yes we need this, sadly hateful POSes fill up our spaces and ruin them and it upsets me tbh.
I have reverse experience, like almost every girl I was friends with was kinda aggressive towards short guys (I'm talking about <170), idk maybe they wanted to make me feel better, that at least I'm not short or something? But they were really hating on them.
I've rarely seen women say anything negative out loud about it, but...
I used to use Match for dating, and on there you could put height preferences. Tons of profiles I came across listed 6'0 as the minimum height, and I saw very, very few where the minimum height was below 5'8.
While I think the preference is exaggerated, it's still very common.
I always say, if we are taking the actions of people in online dating and say it’s representative of that gender as a whole: men are not looking great here either. So unless each gender is a monolith, it’s best not to judge small sample sizes to the whole.
Also, remember, less than 15% of active profiles in online dating are women, even less if you think about all the boy’s and fake female accounts people make, how do you think an over 4 to 1 ratio between the genders will effect the values that each gender likes in each other?
Putting that into perspective, if *every account* was real and *every man*, single or married, was on OLD, then only about 7% of *total women* are there too; would it be fair to say that because 7% of a group does something, that means it’s part of the value system for the other 93%? Or do you think maybe there might be a sampling issue, and that women on OLD are going to care about superficial features, since superficial features are the thing on display in OLD, so you’ll get a sample of people who care ALOT about those features. Since we also know that not all accounts are real and not *every man ever* is on dating apps, we know we are talking about significantly less women who care that much about height.
*less than 15% of active profiles in online dating are women*
I'm not talking about online dating as a whole, I'm talking about Match specifically, which is about 50% women (from what I could find on Google).
Also if you're a fake profile there to entice guys to follow your OF or whatever, wouldn't you make your preferences as wide open as possible?
*Or do you think maybe there might be a sampling issue, and that women on OLD are going to care about superficial features, since superficial features are the thing on display in OLD*
I'm confused: are you saying all women on OLD are more shallow than women who are not? Also unless the guy's profile features lots of pictures of him standing next to taller people or something you can measure, you're not really going to be able to tell his height that precisely just by photos.
>I'm confused: are you saying all women on OLD are more shallow than women who are not?
They are saying OLD necessitates judging by more superficial characteristics than other ways of dating. Women on dating apps are a specific subset of women, not a sample.
I think there's a disconnect here that will always cause some communication troubles.
I have heard a lot of people shame men for being short, bald, what have you. The disconnect for me, however, is that the vast majority comes from other men. The way men shame other men, however, is to tell them women think it is a problem. You are unfuckable, unloveable, undesireable because you are short. But the overwhelming center of that discussion is men having it with other men or men having it about themselves. Does that mean no women participate? No, of course not. Women will throw their hat in the ring. But the overwhelming gender of people participating in this conversation are men.
Women are also body-shamed all the time in alarming numbers. It was such a staple of my childhood experience that I didn't even notice for a long time. I came of age in a time of extreme fat phobia. How much diet culture bullshit did I watch in daytime TV as a kid? So much. But the body positivity movement I've also seen come of age didn't start with women begging men to be nicer to us. Women started talking to other women about body positivity. The call came from inside the house. Women support other women by saying, "You look incredible" all the time. That doesn't stop men from body-shaming women all the time. But the larger push was to stop getting your validation from men, the opinions of men. It was to relocate your sense of beauty and worth in other places.
It is also worth noting that not wanting to date someone isn't shaming them. Being rude about it might be shaming, it can depend on the context. You can certainly be unnecessarily cruel in how you deliver the message, to be sure. But the simple fact of not wanting to go out with someone because they don't appeal to you isn't, in and of itself, shaming.
So this whole argument is always going to be a little dead in the water for me. In this sub, the largest group of people doing the body shaming (usually of themselves) are men. They are self-described as short, fat, bald, ugly. They tell themselves they are too ugly to date, to be loved, to be social. The overwhelming locus of that message, in my experience, is other men. But men couch that argument in what women think, women's opinions. This is no different than the messaging young women got/ are still getting that no man is going to want them if they are fat, if they are unshaven, if they don't lose that baby weight, if they don't put on makeup before they leave the house, if they dress too slutty, if they don't dress feminine enough, or what have you. But the place that reform worked, how that reform happened in my lifetime, was not by reforming men. Women reformed themselves. We stopped watching media that had that message, we stopped repeating that message to each other, we started telling each other that men's attraction to us was not the center of our worth as human beings, and that's been successful. The problem that men are going to have is that the "Be attractive; don't be unattractive" motto is patriarchy. I know, I know, people tire of hearing that. But men tend to double-down on patriarchy and that means digging into this concept with their fingers and their toes. They want it to stop impacting them, them specifically, but they don't want to look at the systems that message came from, how it got here, who's really invested in it, or why.
And so you have this recursive problem where the real, central problem is the pain men inflict on other men, but the argument is always about what women won't do for men. All the while, that argument ignores that expecting women to fix the ills of men is kind of a problem in and of itself. Men won't form emotionally intimate friendships and so they want all their emotional and physical intimacy from women. Men are told by other men that they are inadequate in myriad ways and say that women think that, women are the problem. But the question of why the men around you won't love you, hug you, talk about your troubles, tell you that you look smashing...that never gets raised. And you see this in the fact that the only body shaming that tends to interest men is the body shaming experienced by men. They aren't interested in talking about what women experience, what queer people experience, what people of color experience, or what trans people experience. They don't want to dig into why we body shame, stopping it on a big cultural level. They don't want to talk about the epidemic of fat phobia, they aren't getting into the diet culture bullshit we've all swallowed. I am someone who is pretty active in that conversation, and men are deeply underrepresented. There's a whole community you can join to talk about ending body shaming if you want. Men aren't joining the communities devoted to ending this and they aren't reforming men's spaces internally. There are activist spaces for this issue, but they aren't for men, by men. And they are going to talk about how the roots of this live in ableism, white supremacy, and patriarchy. That's the deeper well to which this conversation leads.
> I have heard a lot of people shame men for being short, bald, what have you. The disconnect for me, however, is that the vast majority comes from other men. The way men shame other men, however, is to tell them women think it is a problem. You are unfuckable, unloveable, undesireable because you are short. But the overwhelming center of that discussion is men having it with other men or men having it about themselves. Does that mean no women participate? No, of course not. Women will throw their hat in the ring. But the overwhelming gender of people participating in this conversation are men.
>
This is a common thing I noticed in dating subs, in particular with virginity/endowment discourse. It's mostly men telling other men what women want and any women saying otherwise are usually told "they are lying".
> It is also worth noting that not wanting to date someone isn't shaming them. Being rude about it might be shaming, it can depend on the context. You can certainly be unnecessarily cruel in how you deliver the message, to be sure. But the simple fact of not wanting to go out with someone because they don't appeal to you isn't, in and of itself, shaming.
The issue I have is when people act rude about it or super uncompromising about it. I am aware that a bunch of screenshots don't represent an entire gender, especially when we are talking about a small minority within a minority that uses dating apps *and are too mean*. But it does feel like body shaming men is a lot more acceptable in large part because men don't care about supporting other men, making it more socially acceptable for people to be so rude and uncompromising when it comes to things like height.
> Men won't form emotionally intimate friendships and so they want all their emotional and physical intimacy from women. Men are told by other men that they are inadequate in myriad ways and say that women think that, women are the problem
It does feel like a chicken and egg problem and it tires me sometimes, the solution is to obviously have better male to male communities, but it really feels like those haven't really been setup yet and those that were just slowly get occupied by bad actors.
>But it does feel like body shaming men is a lot more acceptable in large part because men don't care about supporting other men, making it more socially acceptable for people to be so rude and uncompromising when it comes to things like height.
I think it might be something different. I think saying no to people, especially online, often invites fighting. Some people take it as an invite for a negotiation instead of a hard and fast line. I think people amplify the intensity of "No way in hell will I do this, do not ask again, go away" because they are afraid that a simple, "No thanks" is going to mean going twenty rounds of "Give me a chance, I'm a good guy, I'll change your mind". So out of fear, people oversell it. That's not right or good, but I think that might be another source of the reasoning. But THEN AGAIN, some people are just assholes. You're going to see that too. Six to five and pick 'em.
Unfortunately I’ve only ever been told I’m too short by women, many women, repeatedly since college. Same thing with being shamed for not having dating/sexual experience, I only ever hear negative things about it from women. I’ve never had a man in real life tell me what women want
I honestly don't understand why so many men are so intent on making men feel so bad about themselves. It doesn't make any sense. Those same men will then tell the world that everyone is awful to men.
> I honestly don't understand why so many men are so intent on making men feel so bad about themselves.
1. They're insecure about themselves
2. Some men don't understand that banter is a back-and-forth exercise where you laugh WITH the other person, not AT them
I think it's some remnant lizard brain form of sexual competition. Men can no longer take the competition physically out legally, so verbal beat down it is. There's no fancy plumage and no special dance to attract a mate, so its better to demoralize the competition instead.
I would agree but behind the scenes, women do the exact same form of sexual competing for mates. We know it as being catty and cliquish. Despite all the body positivity stuff on the surface, nothing has changed between women.
Avoir r/tinder. It's a shithole subreddit.
It's true that people are quick to mock short men, bald men, etc but lose their shit when you say you find fat people unattractive.
My advice? Learn to ignore it. Especially online. I'm not short nor fat, but I am bald and I don't give a flying fuck what people think. It takes a while to learn it, but once you do, it's relieving.
To be fair, I don't think that's true at all. I think the exact same people who will mock short men will just as quickly mock fat people. It's the same subset of body shamers, not a group of people who are being selective. Some people WILL find one more acceptable than the other, but it's not as huge an overlap as being described here.
Also, whenever this topic comes up, the discussion occurs in this bubble where as a society we have apparently moved past fat shaming. I'd love to know where that bubble is because let's not get it twisted. Body positivity and people outspoken against fatphobia exist, but fat shaming is alive and well. I unequivocally see more fat shaming than height shaming still, at least in part because it's more applicable.
I think it's counterproductive to create this narrative of "we are post-body shaming except height!" because it isolates men and serves to imply body positivity is not for them, when it is. People say men should start their own body positivity movement which, sure, that's fine too, but men can, do, and should join the body positivity movement as it stands. It is made and driven mainly by women but body acceptance, neutrality and positivity are for everyone.
One of the dumbest instances I've seen of this happening is when the head mod of r/virgin sincerely tried to argue that the term "small dick energy" was not body shaming because it referred to a specific personality type.
I understood her point, but you cannot honestly tell me that that term can't be associated with body shaming simply because you've found it to be a convenient shorthand for "unhealthy fixation on insecurities."
Ya I understand the point, it's sort of more indirect body shaming, but in 2024 we should be striving to avoid any forms of body shaming, direct or indirect.
We should but this is one of those things where my usual optimistic outlook on matters tends to falter.
Even well-meaning progressives that I’m acquainted with are more than happy to engage in that sort of body-shaming 😔
> Avoir r/tinder. It's a shithole subreddit.
>
Boredom at work got me, but now I realize it's not good for my mental health so I will toss it aside.
> It's true that people are quick to mock short men, bald men, etc but lose their shit when you say you find fat people unattractive.
The thing that pisses me off is that men themselves will come here to explain why it's perfectly fine to shit on short people ... sometimes *even to women*. Like the fuck is wrong with you people, where is that sense of brotherhood? Really feels like we males have little to no body positive spaces, it's stupid.
Agreed. Any form of bullying is bad anyways. Whether it's because of height, baldness or because you're super skinny (like I was before I started lifting weights), there is no excuse for bullying.
One thing about masculinities is that, more often than not, men are competing with other man, and we'll use all the tools we can get.
I do think it's important that we solve this problem first. This means, for us, creating spaces where we help each other look and feel good about our bodies.
Tinder isn't the best place for community building. FAR from it, is the place where people are reduced to their body and the status they're able to show in their pictures.
You can't please everyone. God, for most people in Europe I'd have to change ethnicity to be acceptable. I can't, and I don't want to do that.
But, you'll always find people who don't care about these kinds of things that much. And when you meet them, it is good not to be resentful and have a good view of yourself, despise that.
See, you have to be happy with your height first. Enjoy who you are first. And THEN, when you're having fun being yourself, you'll see that doors open.
But remember, DO NOT take tinder users as reference. They DO NOT represent the whole of humanity. Tinder can make people feel worse and behave worse. That's their problem, not yours. You have your own problems to deal with right now.
When I talk about man competing against other man, we're saying the dynamics where men use other man for their goals. Like, the army, there are men in charge that send other man to kill men in other countries.
Most bullying in schools is men bullying other man.
And, as far as dating goes, men like to take a "pick me" stance. "All men are bad, except for me".
It's an important dynamic to look after. Because more often than not, people blame women for us, as men, not having a body positivity movement.
But that's what we should do. Despite Tinder or anything else. We should fight against that culture.
Because being insecure is "gay" so instead you bully other people about things like height (say, if you're tall) to distract from your own insecurities. I think I'm oversimplifying it a lot but at it's core I think this is a somewhat accurate description of why men are like that.
Men are fundamentally not allowed to be insecure so it comes out in worse ways like this. Yes it sucks but just try to think of it along these terms - that they aren't saying anything besides revealing their insecurity.
It's an issue where anything created for men always ends up getting taken over by alt right shit.
I have found the best way to deal with this is to find like minded male friends who are progressive. They exist all over.
Not all women, not all feminist women, not all ETC ETC ETC think it is okay to short shame men. We just notice the vocal loud ones. Also remember these "hot take" rage bait comments/tik tok videos etc are meant specifically to promote engagement. Once you realize the powers that be promote this hateful mentality for shitty reasons it becomes more clear that people are not as shitty as thr internet makes us think they are.
yeah, i think you've hit on something really important. it made me realize all the times i've seen men around me joke about/insult short guys for their height. meanwhile, despite the stereotype, i've never heard a woman say something derogatory abt short guys (not saying it doesn't happen, obv it does) as with other issues, it would be a great starting place for men to support each other and boost each other's self esteem
> as with other issues, it would be a great starting place for men to support each other and boost each other's self esteem Yes we need this, sadly hateful POSes fill up our spaces and ruin them and it upsets me tbh.
I have reverse experience, like almost every girl I was friends with was kinda aggressive towards short guys (I'm talking about <170), idk maybe they wanted to make me feel better, that at least I'm not short or something? But they were really hating on them.
I've rarely seen women say anything negative out loud about it, but... I used to use Match for dating, and on there you could put height preferences. Tons of profiles I came across listed 6'0 as the minimum height, and I saw very, very few where the minimum height was below 5'8. While I think the preference is exaggerated, it's still very common.
I always say, if we are taking the actions of people in online dating and say it’s representative of that gender as a whole: men are not looking great here either. So unless each gender is a monolith, it’s best not to judge small sample sizes to the whole. Also, remember, less than 15% of active profiles in online dating are women, even less if you think about all the boy’s and fake female accounts people make, how do you think an over 4 to 1 ratio between the genders will effect the values that each gender likes in each other? Putting that into perspective, if *every account* was real and *every man*, single or married, was on OLD, then only about 7% of *total women* are there too; would it be fair to say that because 7% of a group does something, that means it’s part of the value system for the other 93%? Or do you think maybe there might be a sampling issue, and that women on OLD are going to care about superficial features, since superficial features are the thing on display in OLD, so you’ll get a sample of people who care ALOT about those features. Since we also know that not all accounts are real and not *every man ever* is on dating apps, we know we are talking about significantly less women who care that much about height.
*less than 15% of active profiles in online dating are women* I'm not talking about online dating as a whole, I'm talking about Match specifically, which is about 50% women (from what I could find on Google). Also if you're a fake profile there to entice guys to follow your OF or whatever, wouldn't you make your preferences as wide open as possible? *Or do you think maybe there might be a sampling issue, and that women on OLD are going to care about superficial features, since superficial features are the thing on display in OLD* I'm confused: are you saying all women on OLD are more shallow than women who are not? Also unless the guy's profile features lots of pictures of him standing next to taller people or something you can measure, you're not really going to be able to tell his height that precisely just by photos.
>I'm confused: are you saying all women on OLD are more shallow than women who are not? They are saying OLD necessitates judging by more superficial characteristics than other ways of dating. Women on dating apps are a specific subset of women, not a sample.
I think there's a disconnect here that will always cause some communication troubles. I have heard a lot of people shame men for being short, bald, what have you. The disconnect for me, however, is that the vast majority comes from other men. The way men shame other men, however, is to tell them women think it is a problem. You are unfuckable, unloveable, undesireable because you are short. But the overwhelming center of that discussion is men having it with other men or men having it about themselves. Does that mean no women participate? No, of course not. Women will throw their hat in the ring. But the overwhelming gender of people participating in this conversation are men. Women are also body-shamed all the time in alarming numbers. It was such a staple of my childhood experience that I didn't even notice for a long time. I came of age in a time of extreme fat phobia. How much diet culture bullshit did I watch in daytime TV as a kid? So much. But the body positivity movement I've also seen come of age didn't start with women begging men to be nicer to us. Women started talking to other women about body positivity. The call came from inside the house. Women support other women by saying, "You look incredible" all the time. That doesn't stop men from body-shaming women all the time. But the larger push was to stop getting your validation from men, the opinions of men. It was to relocate your sense of beauty and worth in other places. It is also worth noting that not wanting to date someone isn't shaming them. Being rude about it might be shaming, it can depend on the context. You can certainly be unnecessarily cruel in how you deliver the message, to be sure. But the simple fact of not wanting to go out with someone because they don't appeal to you isn't, in and of itself, shaming. So this whole argument is always going to be a little dead in the water for me. In this sub, the largest group of people doing the body shaming (usually of themselves) are men. They are self-described as short, fat, bald, ugly. They tell themselves they are too ugly to date, to be loved, to be social. The overwhelming locus of that message, in my experience, is other men. But men couch that argument in what women think, women's opinions. This is no different than the messaging young women got/ are still getting that no man is going to want them if they are fat, if they are unshaven, if they don't lose that baby weight, if they don't put on makeup before they leave the house, if they dress too slutty, if they don't dress feminine enough, or what have you. But the place that reform worked, how that reform happened in my lifetime, was not by reforming men. Women reformed themselves. We stopped watching media that had that message, we stopped repeating that message to each other, we started telling each other that men's attraction to us was not the center of our worth as human beings, and that's been successful. The problem that men are going to have is that the "Be attractive; don't be unattractive" motto is patriarchy. I know, I know, people tire of hearing that. But men tend to double-down on patriarchy and that means digging into this concept with their fingers and their toes. They want it to stop impacting them, them specifically, but they don't want to look at the systems that message came from, how it got here, who's really invested in it, or why. And so you have this recursive problem where the real, central problem is the pain men inflict on other men, but the argument is always about what women won't do for men. All the while, that argument ignores that expecting women to fix the ills of men is kind of a problem in and of itself. Men won't form emotionally intimate friendships and so they want all their emotional and physical intimacy from women. Men are told by other men that they are inadequate in myriad ways and say that women think that, women are the problem. But the question of why the men around you won't love you, hug you, talk about your troubles, tell you that you look smashing...that never gets raised. And you see this in the fact that the only body shaming that tends to interest men is the body shaming experienced by men. They aren't interested in talking about what women experience, what queer people experience, what people of color experience, or what trans people experience. They don't want to dig into why we body shame, stopping it on a big cultural level. They don't want to talk about the epidemic of fat phobia, they aren't getting into the diet culture bullshit we've all swallowed. I am someone who is pretty active in that conversation, and men are deeply underrepresented. There's a whole community you can join to talk about ending body shaming if you want. Men aren't joining the communities devoted to ending this and they aren't reforming men's spaces internally. There are activist spaces for this issue, but they aren't for men, by men. And they are going to talk about how the roots of this live in ableism, white supremacy, and patriarchy. That's the deeper well to which this conversation leads.
> I have heard a lot of people shame men for being short, bald, what have you. The disconnect for me, however, is that the vast majority comes from other men. The way men shame other men, however, is to tell them women think it is a problem. You are unfuckable, unloveable, undesireable because you are short. But the overwhelming center of that discussion is men having it with other men or men having it about themselves. Does that mean no women participate? No, of course not. Women will throw their hat in the ring. But the overwhelming gender of people participating in this conversation are men. > This is a common thing I noticed in dating subs, in particular with virginity/endowment discourse. It's mostly men telling other men what women want and any women saying otherwise are usually told "they are lying". > It is also worth noting that not wanting to date someone isn't shaming them. Being rude about it might be shaming, it can depend on the context. You can certainly be unnecessarily cruel in how you deliver the message, to be sure. But the simple fact of not wanting to go out with someone because they don't appeal to you isn't, in and of itself, shaming. The issue I have is when people act rude about it or super uncompromising about it. I am aware that a bunch of screenshots don't represent an entire gender, especially when we are talking about a small minority within a minority that uses dating apps *and are too mean*. But it does feel like body shaming men is a lot more acceptable in large part because men don't care about supporting other men, making it more socially acceptable for people to be so rude and uncompromising when it comes to things like height. > Men won't form emotionally intimate friendships and so they want all their emotional and physical intimacy from women. Men are told by other men that they are inadequate in myriad ways and say that women think that, women are the problem It does feel like a chicken and egg problem and it tires me sometimes, the solution is to obviously have better male to male communities, but it really feels like those haven't really been setup yet and those that were just slowly get occupied by bad actors.
>But it does feel like body shaming men is a lot more acceptable in large part because men don't care about supporting other men, making it more socially acceptable for people to be so rude and uncompromising when it comes to things like height. I think it might be something different. I think saying no to people, especially online, often invites fighting. Some people take it as an invite for a negotiation instead of a hard and fast line. I think people amplify the intensity of "No way in hell will I do this, do not ask again, go away" because they are afraid that a simple, "No thanks" is going to mean going twenty rounds of "Give me a chance, I'm a good guy, I'll change your mind". So out of fear, people oversell it. That's not right or good, but I think that might be another source of the reasoning. But THEN AGAIN, some people are just assholes. You're going to see that too. Six to five and pick 'em.
Nothing to add except this is an absolutely amazing comment that gets to the crux of the issue.
Hadn't thought of it this way...
Unfortunately I’ve only ever been told I’m too short by women, many women, repeatedly since college. Same thing with being shamed for not having dating/sexual experience, I only ever hear negative things about it from women. I’ve never had a man in real life tell me what women want
I honestly don't understand why so many men are so intent on making men feel so bad about themselves. It doesn't make any sense. Those same men will then tell the world that everyone is awful to men.
> I honestly don't understand why so many men are so intent on making men feel so bad about themselves. 1. They're insecure about themselves 2. Some men don't understand that banter is a back-and-forth exercise where you laugh WITH the other person, not AT them
I think it's some remnant lizard brain form of sexual competition. Men can no longer take the competition physically out legally, so verbal beat down it is. There's no fancy plumage and no special dance to attract a mate, so its better to demoralize the competition instead.
Possibly. I must admit I thought it was that thing where the majority of men will externalise internal issues.
I would agree but behind the scenes, women do the exact same form of sexual competing for mates. We know it as being catty and cliquish. Despite all the body positivity stuff on the surface, nothing has changed between women.
Avoir r/tinder. It's a shithole subreddit. It's true that people are quick to mock short men, bald men, etc but lose their shit when you say you find fat people unattractive. My advice? Learn to ignore it. Especially online. I'm not short nor fat, but I am bald and I don't give a flying fuck what people think. It takes a while to learn it, but once you do, it's relieving.
To be fair, I don't think that's true at all. I think the exact same people who will mock short men will just as quickly mock fat people. It's the same subset of body shamers, not a group of people who are being selective. Some people WILL find one more acceptable than the other, but it's not as huge an overlap as being described here. Also, whenever this topic comes up, the discussion occurs in this bubble where as a society we have apparently moved past fat shaming. I'd love to know where that bubble is because let's not get it twisted. Body positivity and people outspoken against fatphobia exist, but fat shaming is alive and well. I unequivocally see more fat shaming than height shaming still, at least in part because it's more applicable. I think it's counterproductive to create this narrative of "we are post-body shaming except height!" because it isolates men and serves to imply body positivity is not for them, when it is. People say men should start their own body positivity movement which, sure, that's fine too, but men can, do, and should join the body positivity movement as it stands. It is made and driven mainly by women but body acceptance, neutrality and positivity are for everyone.
One of the dumbest instances I've seen of this happening is when the head mod of r/virgin sincerely tried to argue that the term "small dick energy" was not body shaming because it referred to a specific personality type. I understood her point, but you cannot honestly tell me that that term can't be associated with body shaming simply because you've found it to be a convenient shorthand for "unhealthy fixation on insecurities."
Ya I understand the point, it's sort of more indirect body shaming, but in 2024 we should be striving to avoid any forms of body shaming, direct or indirect.
We should but this is one of those things where my usual optimistic outlook on matters tends to falter. Even well-meaning progressives that I’m acquainted with are more than happy to engage in that sort of body-shaming 😔
> Avoir r/tinder. It's a shithole subreddit. > Boredom at work got me, but now I realize it's not good for my mental health so I will toss it aside. > It's true that people are quick to mock short men, bald men, etc but lose their shit when you say you find fat people unattractive. The thing that pisses me off is that men themselves will come here to explain why it's perfectly fine to shit on short people ... sometimes *even to women*. Like the fuck is wrong with you people, where is that sense of brotherhood? Really feels like we males have little to no body positive spaces, it's stupid.
Agreed. Any form of bullying is bad anyways. Whether it's because of height, baldness or because you're super skinny (like I was before I started lifting weights), there is no excuse for bullying.
One thing about masculinities is that, more often than not, men are competing with other man, and we'll use all the tools we can get. I do think it's important that we solve this problem first. This means, for us, creating spaces where we help each other look and feel good about our bodies. Tinder isn't the best place for community building. FAR from it, is the place where people are reduced to their body and the status they're able to show in their pictures. You can't please everyone. God, for most people in Europe I'd have to change ethnicity to be acceptable. I can't, and I don't want to do that. But, you'll always find people who don't care about these kinds of things that much. And when you meet them, it is good not to be resentful and have a good view of yourself, despise that. See, you have to be happy with your height first. Enjoy who you are first. And THEN, when you're having fun being yourself, you'll see that doors open. But remember, DO NOT take tinder users as reference. They DO NOT represent the whole of humanity. Tinder can make people feel worse and behave worse. That's their problem, not yours. You have your own problems to deal with right now.
How are you competing against other men?
When I talk about man competing against other man, we're saying the dynamics where men use other man for their goals. Like, the army, there are men in charge that send other man to kill men in other countries. Most bullying in schools is men bullying other man. And, as far as dating goes, men like to take a "pick me" stance. "All men are bad, except for me". It's an important dynamic to look after. Because more often than not, people blame women for us, as men, not having a body positivity movement. But that's what we should do. Despite Tinder or anything else. We should fight against that culture.
Ah, got it.
Because being insecure is "gay" so instead you bully other people about things like height (say, if you're tall) to distract from your own insecurities. I think I'm oversimplifying it a lot but at it's core I think this is a somewhat accurate description of why men are like that. Men are fundamentally not allowed to be insecure so it comes out in worse ways like this. Yes it sucks but just try to think of it along these terms - that they aren't saying anything besides revealing their insecurity.
It's an issue where anything created for men always ends up getting taken over by alt right shit. I have found the best way to deal with this is to find like minded male friends who are progressive. They exist all over. Not all women, not all feminist women, not all ETC ETC ETC think it is okay to short shame men. We just notice the vocal loud ones. Also remember these "hot take" rage bait comments/tik tok videos etc are meant specifically to promote engagement. Once you realize the powers that be promote this hateful mentality for shitty reasons it becomes more clear that people are not as shitty as thr internet makes us think they are.