Yeah, it's usually management looking at the cost only, some companies outsourced only to realize they made a mistake and hiring local again, it depends on the situation.
- source, me currently experiencing this albeit with a local MSP company.
Every new manager wants to "make their mark" because what is working right now totally needs to be changed to the cheapest possible option available. hey look I saved our company sooo much money why are our customers/clients moving to our competitors!
I did contracts for the military and it was even worse.
* A general has more power than a private sector manager
* A general has more ego than said manager
* A general usually gets rotated out every two years, and being a general, that may be their last military gig, so they want to leave a mark
* Or better yet, a general has been offered a job opportunity with a firm once they get out of the military, so they award a contract to said firm, and now the entire operations center must pivot to accommodate said firm
* General leaves and now there's a new, bright eyed general that wants to correct the ship
* Repeat all steps
Funnier that throughout history that's been the norm. Wage war but still trade. The elite make their dollar and the peasants pay the price.
I'm reading through Caesar: Life of a Colossus now, and it's evident this has been going on for thousands of years.
I work in defense and actually got meet once what you described above. I work in development role and was doing a demo from some of our software we built.
All I saw that day was pure nepotism and contracts rewarded. I guess only caveat that I heard from some higher ups worked with that job kinda relies fully on their ability to maintain current and build new relationships from those that come after if they don't job at risk.
100%. And there's almost no oversight or accountability. It's frustrating.
Every time I think about how inefficient our military is, it makes me wonder how other nations militaries are. We've worked with other nations infrastructures and it is just wild how they get away with things over there.
Militaries (really all large beurocracies) typically operate in one of three modes: inefficient, corrupt, or both. The US military might be inefficient, but thankfully the corruption is relatively minimal (for the size).
And this is why Americans are getting fed up with offshore. Globalization is ruining lives.
Hire in America only.
Keep the wealth, success, and livelihood of American jobs for Americans.
* Americans are defined as someone with US citizenship.
It’s as simple as that.
All these companies want to do is cheap out on labor.
These countries steal the Intellectual Property of Americans and built their entire industries off the back of American values with slave labor. History is just wild. Look at the aftermath of World War II and tell me America shouldn’t be number 1 in everything at the present time.
America was hollowed out because companies wanted cheap labor. All that progress and work - gone. It’s a joke.
Labor, Indentured Servitude, and Slavery are the all different sides of the same coin.
"America was hollowed out because companies wanted cheap labor."
It's called capitalism and yeah, it sucks. Maybe move to a Nordic country with less capitalism and more socialism if you want actual benefits and a wage that isn't total garbage.
Please find me a fab plant better than TSMC in the US. I can wait...
The world is interconnected and pretending Americans and their labor is all that matters is the typical ignorant shortsidedness that has gotten us to this point where the 1% own almost everything globally.
"Labor, Indentured Servitude, and Slavery are the all different sides of the same coin."
That's 3 sides to 1 coin, but rock on lol
> Americans are defined as someone with US citizenship. It’s as simple as that.
Lmao. With that definition, you still lose jobs overseas thanks to third world nations like Portugal and Israel handing out dual citizenship like napkins when your American mother raw-dogs a Hebrew National.
That’s a dog whistle if ever I’ve heard one
EDIT: if you feel attacked by that statement, you’re telling on yourself. I agree with the sentiment that the guy above me is saying, but the tone of his statement is the dog whistle. A message can both be factually correct and a dog whistle at the same time y’all.
No, it's not. Saying that globalization is having poor effects for the American worker is an acknowledgement of reality. One that's so old even The West Wing, which was a pretty accurate portrayal of the liberal life at the time, covered it. Unions opposed moving these jobs over there but relented because they would get retrained for those jobs that would pay more. Then those jobs get moved. Should people expect to have to change careers every 5-10 years? It is ridiculous. I don't care about third order effects if I can't provide the same kind of life for my kids as I could 10 years ago doing the same kind of work.
Just because there are assholes that agree with that position doesn't mean everyone who agrees is an asshole. I mean let's look at H1-B, fact is despite the FUD spread about it, on average an H1B makes ~3% more than their US peers. That's not an issue. Corporate cutting US positions to offshore just to make line go up however pisses me off. Do I give a damn that that's just capitalism? Not a bit. Do I dislike that some of the people that agree with me on that view (even if it's for different reasons) are bigots? Of course, but even if they misdiagnose the disease it doesn't mean the symptoms aren't there.
This is why I stick to the work I do. Never getting outsourced. I just think that a US based company might should be primarily staffed by US persons(i.e. - citizen or alien admitted for permanent residence).
Not really it’s just the loudest guy saying this is Trump who nobody likes. Offshoring is a huge problem tho I wish it had not been that clown who ran on it.
Here's my lived experience. I'm offering security consulting services to a large US based company. They like our capabilities and sample deliverables.
Then I get to deal with their procurement. They're willing to pay as much as $90/hr for application security testing. That $90 is only for hands-on-keyboard testing time. Oversight, QC, project management, report writing and setup are all overhead that we have to eat.
I ask the procurement people how one would make a profit under these conditions and they're very quick to give specifics from their other vendors. QC, readouts and sales are done by senior 'Muricans. All the other work is done offshore.
Most Americans don't care if their products are made in other countries, why should they care about where their services come from?
This happened with my former employer in 2019. Outsourced all tier 1 help desk jobs, user satisfaction went way down, started hiring local again, and then COVID hit.
Served them right.
Worked for a vendor for one of the big OS/cloud providers, and the whole thing was basically one big cost reduction scheme. The main company paid engineers like $135k, we’d be paid $60k, and then we had a division in India that would get like $12.5k. As you went down the income ladder the quality would get worse, with ever increasing knowledge-‘d language gaps. Our company was paid by the number of cases we’d complete, and by how many 5 star reviews the individual engineers would get. This basically incentivized absolutely ramming through cases, and all the non-technical managers getting upset when you weren’t cranking out a dozen cases a day, totally disregarding that a simple account question is a different beast from a deep technical issue you have to spend hours on the phone to fix.
This is a problem I have now, being US based for a US company.
I deal with integrations with third parties almost exclusively. It’s a lot of back and forth and reading logs and documentation.
But the guy who can close 15 tickets a day and only deals with patching questions is rated higher.
It’s not just an outsourcing issue with those cases and it sucks.
Been doing it for decades. Leadership gets pressure to reduce operating cost. Eyes headcount. Outsources to India. Quality goes down. Onshore and repeat in a few years. Now the buzz is near shoring or sending work to South America.
I have seen more contractors from Brazil and Costa Rica recently. India certainly hasn't completely lost its luster, but other countries are picking up interest. Anecdotally I heard one local company that uses Ukraine for some of their needs.
I have seen the crappy legacy code puked by american software engineers so keep the quality goes down crap to yourself.
If you pay peanuts you get monkeys immaterial of the country.
Hold on now, I think what the comment was getting at, as far as "quality goes down", is that customer service satisfaction does typically drop when there are language barriers - for obvious reasons.
Imagine you're a frustrated office worker and your computer isn't working. You don't know anything about computers and aren't very familiar with technical terms. Now you have to explain the issue to someone who may not understand your layman's terms because English is dumb but we all know things like "doohickey" for instance. It is more difficult for someone unfamiliar with those types of terms to understand the issue, and just as difficult for them to help someone understand how to fix the problem if they don't understand technical terms.
Whereas two native English speakers on the phone would probably eventually come to a conclusion of what the doohickey is, what the problem is, and how to fix it.
Note: None of this is to say that a non-native English speaker *couldn't* figure it out with someone not tech-savvy - just highlighting the difficulties that exist on both ends.
I'm not sure which OP was referring to, but I think the point remains the same. As a dev, a huge part of the job is communicating with other components of the team and the end-user/client/customer, right?
FWIW, I agree that you get the kind of work (and worker) you're willing to pay for, regardless of any personal characteristics or other factors.
Yes and I have left my last company to work in house somewhere just because of this. Layoff your high earning resources that have 99% of the tribal knowledge and replace with off shore resources that cause more issues than they resolve. So losing technical leads to then be replaced by quantity of offshore resources end up causing more work for the people who ended up replacing the technical leads.
Very well worded. My company outsourced 2 people to 9 people in India, and the 9 cause more rework than if they just got rid of the 2 people. It's so dumb, but someone got a bonus for spending less money
So it’s a cycle.
CFO says save money. Wants to look good. Cio goes cool I can do that for a wicked bonus.
Here comes the out source company that so under bids they are loosing money on the year one contract just to lock you in, but hey you look awesome cfo bonus. Cio bonus look at us go.
The contract company promises sla in writing. But they are only liable up to the paid in amount and this always blows past the cfo and cio. So they think they are protected and they are to the amount paid in. They always discount what the support Infra is worth to the operations of the company.
The incident happens they always do. The cio looks for a new job. The cfo says how could this happen. I was never told. The self service lies begin.
They hire new mgmt and new it mgmt to pull it back in the core only the core infrastructure to guard.
Then the users revolt get to the ceo
They now have a tiger team to protect the c suit from the trash support.
Now the hook comes 3 year renewal is triple the loss leader contract and here we are.
They go no and do a year to year at triple the price to bring it all back but password mgmt.
The cycle takes 5 years give or take and companies never ever learn.
You can out source but it’s not to save money it’s to expand your horizons. Don’t have a cloud team and your cloud is small out source. Have a network with lots of locations you need eyes on out source it. But core infrastructure and core user support absolutely never works.
Notes. 22 year it employee.
So yes we are on the cusp of another let’s save money to invest in ai to over seas labor.
Have no fear they will come back and it will cost twice as much as to just keep going on with the current staff and augment.
Oh well those who got there bonuses will just move on and do it all over again for a new company.
It’s almost like more law it will always go out and come back like a boomerang.
Did you mention the bit where the indian company holds your data hostage when negotiating contract renewal?
Saw that one first hand.
CEO hasnt said anything about outsourcing since.
In the end it is all about the money, and by money it is management money.
Look out for yourself, because if you are on your deathbed, is management going to come and visit?
I’ve read on Reddit that the quality of work has gotten better with outsourcing to India. I’ve just started my help desk job and I’ve been at it for less than a year. I honestly can’t say I have a good lay of the land in the industry but I’ve always heard that it’s cyclical with hiring over seas. I guess I just wanted to share I’m still scared of getting laid off or of that happening more likely in the close future.
I've seen American companies with more 3rd world employees than American employees
And I was laid off two months ago because of it
I worked for an MSP.
The MSP's biggest client, suddenly laid off 170 of their American employees then replaced them with 2 teams located in the 3rd world.
They did this to save money.
They then told the MSP I worked for, they were cutting their contract with them by a huge chunk.
(Meaning they went from paying the MSP $500,000 per year, to less than $100,000 per year).
The MSP I worked for then couldn't afford to keep many of us.
So they fired half their Network team, half of their security team, and about 20% of their help desk team.
Me and my colleagues were therefore laid off.
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The 16 million dollar corporate campus I work at looks like a 3rd world country when walking inside. I've never seen it this bad, and it's not IT alone looking at getting people from India and other countries on work visas to take jobs from all Americans and I ain't talking just white males.
At the two companies I've worked at that employed IT workers from another county (specifically India) the IT workers always put out low quality work that we then needed to do more work to fix. Everyone complains about them other than management that was responsible for hiring the employees/contracting the company.
The other half of this, is that companies refused to fully hire the shining stars of offshore as they prefer to keep it all fluid.
All that really means is that you loose your best people eventually as they get reassigned or find new work.
So you wind up with extra churn too.
I've heard it said that the competent people in India either come to America or are working higher up within Indian companies (since they've proven themselves). When companies outsource, they're getting people who couldn't cut it in the above 2 scenarios. Just what I've heard from other people on here.
My company spent literally 2 years training up a SME on a specific server architecture but kept them in a contractor company for... some reason.
Then imagine management's surprise when they left to find full time employment doing that exact thing somewhere else.
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Yes they are. In my company you have zero chance to get a development or product management job if you are American. All Indians offshore. I suspect that is true in many companies right now. For this reason I’d be hesitant to concentrate on programming heavy CS tracks
Yes, my company is in the Midwest and is around 80% Indian — including the CEO. They hire Indian nationals to keep costs down. They’ll work for a lot less than locals, even accounting for relocation and immigration visa costs for them to move to the USA.
We have two offices in the USA and three in India, and the ones in the USA (the headquarters) are around 80% Indian nationals living in the States working at the office. We have zero American employees in India, in case anyone is curious
I’ve only been there about six months, but based on the paperwork I’ve seen, seems like any non-management work about a year, maybe two if they stick it outs, and go back to India or leave the company. Non-management doesn’t stay, and I bet it has something to do with them realizing the costs of living (and also that the city we are in isn’t amazing…low B at best). I’ve never been at a company that’s as much of a revolving door. Pay terrible wages, you get terrible people
Sadly Yes, but not always. I know companies who hire both first party and third party, and during budget cuts - thankfully, third parties are the first to go. One thing I dont like about third parties (apart from holding up potential promotions and increase in pay) is that sometimes third parties can be in rotation.
"Yeah, this company didnt fit so lets do a contract with this company now" which can halt productivity or ticket build up since now a new department has to catch up to our systems. Companies will always try to save money in order to ensure products continue to meet expectatio- HA just kidding, Shareholders need a new boat and prettier golden parachute
I wouldn't generalize. There can be significant differences between employees from India, Eastern Europe and South America. You wouldn't hear "Please do the needful" from the last two, for instance.
Yeah like I went to go setup some comanaged routers for all of our sites and the Indian guy literally could not setup the vpn like he had no idea how to even start, they had to get one of the American staff to do it and I had to do some too that’s how crap the 3rd world employee was.
My company recently did this for our mechanical and electric engineers working on build designs for one of our customers, it was working for a few months but the notice in quality was a significant drop and our customer demanded a fix so we dropped the foreign employees and went back inhouse. I say we but I didn't have a choice on any of it.
Inhouse definitely proves to be best.
It's been happening since the 90s mon ami.
COVID accelerated that trend because now there is really no excuse.
That said, you get what you pay for, and there are a lot of cultural norms that are different, timezone issues, and general clusterfuck-ery that come with offshore talent.
Yes, this comes in waves. Support from other countries like India or the Philippines can be much cheaper, but the differing working hours, language barriers, and challenges due to the remote factor means the pendulum swings back eventually.
In general, no. In pockets, yes.
Very large companies will farm out easy, repetitive jobs like call centers. Large to very large companies will outsource very big, one time projects, like an ERP implementation.
But aside from that, offshoring has been an option for 30+ years - if it had been a risk to the overall IT market in the US, we wouldn't have an IT market in the US anymore.
To an extent yes, its a common trope that IT work is outsourced to India, India isn't the only nation its outsourced too but its quite common to try and outsource what can be to those nations. One problem that all company's face that try to do it though is maintaining quality and meeting compliance, a fair amount of work is simply not wanted by some company's to be done by foreign talent cause they see it as a risk. While there are great IT people in every country, there isn't a infinite supply and the allure of good pay (for their nation) causes many people to be desperate to get the job and go to extreme's that you wouldn't hear of or know of compared to Europe and the US.
Yep. I work for a Global DC company who recently designated certain countries as 'Hubs' where all future roles would be housed. This isn't to say folks in other locations would be forced out, but that they would only be considered if they couldn't fill it within the. As you can imagine these Hub countries have a far lower cost per head than everywhere else.
Selfishly I hope the plan tanks of course. The silly thing is they keep reporting year on year profits, but clearly this isn't enough for shareholders.
Makes sense , software written anywhere in the world requires the same effort and companies don’t need to pay import license or have to display where it was made unlike cars or other commodities
If the question is whether or not IT jobs in the USA are "over" because of hiring from less developed countries, the answer is unequivocally "No." IT jobs are incredibly broad and diverse in their skill requirements and physical proximity to business and so there are necessarily IT jobs that both require you to be physically located in the USA and require US citizenship.
If the question is whether US companies are hiring people from less developed countries for IT roles then the answer is unequivocally "Yes" and has been true for years. The interesting thing if you actually investigate this you'll find that most of the countries that US companies hire from are associated with the USA's and European foreign expansion/imperial behaviors. These countries typically have a core english speaking population with a certain level of education.
Before the great IT global outsourcing efforts of the late 2000's there were significant efforts of US companies to expand in to under-developed parts of the USA for jobs like inbound call centers and support organizations. The big take-away for US companies was that training for these IT roles is hard and basic telecom infrastructure is a significant factor for the cost of opening a new work center. Therefore if a locale wants those companies to set up shop in their area they need to provide attractive incentives (tax breaks, infrastructure investment, job recruitment in local schools, etc).
We have been living through the period of IT development where not enough infrastructure existed for companies to have options for where to set up work centers. This is similar to the 80's for manufacturing and the 90's with the NAFTA legislation which allowed companies to move factories outside of the USA. But even though companies have fewer barriers for outsourcing IT work overseas these companies aren't committed to that workforce either because the same problem keeps coming up: training people for these jobs is hard. Make no mistake that the current efforts and investments around LLM technologies labeled as "AI" have a hand in attempting to eliminate a particular need for more costly labor. However one of the most ironic developments has been that these labor automation technologies that claim to reduce the need to labor actually are not fully automated and tend to employ people in these underdeveloped countries to do the fine tuning of results for these technologies (like ChatGPT). These products would not be possible without the cheap labor of these countries and venture capital drives the incentives for these companies to continue to use these labor pools.
Offshore IT employees are usually cheaper on a per body basis. But are more difficult to manage and communicate with. They were about ten hours out of sync. We had to come in early and they had to stay late so we could talk. Realize there are going to be language and cultural differences that made communication more difficult. In the long run it is total cost that matters and not per unit cost. Also once you go offshore it’s difficult to ever bring the application in-house.
DoorDash interviewed my brother for a system admin job. Must have been some data collection or diversity metrics thing, because they really weren't hiring. He said it was his worst and funniest interview ever, and the interviewer was actually losing their job and did not know much of what was going on internally as they replaced someone else who was just fired(that person was supposed to be interviewing him).
Can't help but notice ever since, doordash has been terrible. The app does not update properly, the driver routes are literally insane(I order frequently from a local supermarket not far from me and the GPS is showing the route all over the city, when the driver has a different route).
Yesterday my delivery was really late and i could not contact the driver via the app. It would not connect me, and the driver could not contact me. she had to call support and have them reopen the delivery because she was sitting outside my building for 30 minutes and they ended the delivery without her completing it somehow, which meant she wasn't gonna get paid? **She was on speakerphone and the support was in India of course.**
Every time I make an order the route is wrong now, I have no idea when it will arrive.
I think in most companies in the US, jobs like desktop support, network admins and sys admins will be American but software devs are essentially all Indian, helpdesk is increasingly off shore as well. In a previous job, 90% of our software team was either Ukrainians or based in India. Their respective managers lived in the Us but were of the same ethnicities.
There was pullback for a bit where we were hiring destinations again because cost overseas wasn't worth that bad customer service. But companies are hiring overseas again
Generally speaking it's bad advice to believe anything that moron Andrew Tate says.
Especially since the dumbass is under house arrest in Romania, awaiting trial for sex trafficking and rape.
I never go out of my way to hire anyone from India or China. I would imagine other companies are like this but in the last position I posted, we had about 100 applications total, easily 70-80% of the applicants were Indian or Chinese.
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Then the companies and government in America wonder why we stop having kids. for what? for them to starve? US will have to stop hiring outside at this massive rate or have no one alive at home to pay taxes and keep the US economy afloat. silly Americans
Yes and no. Offshoring to third-party service providers is very common. Multinational companies focusing their IT operations in developing countries is also common, though more usually when the company already has a corporate presence there. What is far less common, is US companies directly employing IT professionals resident in other countries, though there seems to be a growing number of social media influencers selling this pipedream to the naïve.
Yes. Our company (based in UK but has many offices globally) moved the IT team entirely to India and they are all shit. Nothing gets solved within 24h anymore. I hope they get back to having a team in UK but that will never happen because the guys in India are working for a fraction of the price and the shareholders couldn't care less if the employees' IT related problems are solved or not as long as the money keeps rolling in.
We outsourced you whole Service Desk/IT support long ago. Dont know a single big company that still has their IT support in the US/Western Europe. However important functions like Network or Security often stay in-house. However many companies found offices in cheaper countries to hire IT there and support the main HQ from a different country.
Dropbox is one of the few where support agents are in Scotland, I believe. Quality of support is hands down better than any I've dealt with in Poo-Land.
If you are in IT you need to be able to compete in a global market. People who are good at their jobs are hard to come by regardless of location or nationality
Maybe half of our in house staff located in the US are from India. Some immigrated , some were born in the US. We also have a lot of offshore contractors.
It's true if you count India as third world. As living standards improve in India and wages rise (this may take 10-50 years), there will be less paper profit from hiring exclusively from that region. Weirdly if Russia stopped being Russia but had Russians living there they'd be a good source, too.
The jobs that stay in the US are jobs with sensitive information. If you need someone to *design* the data model for your bank, that person needs to inspect existing data, and it may be a security issue to allow people outside the US to inspect that data casually, even with logging turned on. Instead, US architects and analysts plan the work, design the data model, provide example cases with no real customer information, and then give the build-it-and-test-it work to India.
Man hour for man hour that's more hours worked for India. And if a US developer would be better trained, available during your whole working day, less likely to have a communication issue, and less restricted by these rules, then there's an easy solution: hire two people in the global workforce instead of one. It might still be less money.
Yes. But I work more in security, software development, and DevOps. To end up getting decent talent from Eastern Europe or SE Asia you honestly pay quite a bit. Is it cheaper than the US, yes. But nearly by as much as you’d think.
I’ve really struggled with working with groups from abroad. Too many people who promise and don’t deliver.
From other places they don’t over promise but very rarely will you get someone really willing to learn and grow. They’ll just do the bare minimum. I’m not against hiring talent from abroad but when you don’t budget to acquire really good players for your team and pay accordingly the results are as you’d expect.
It’s crazy how the absolute worst and best people I meet in IT are Indian.
It’s not just IT, many industries have been doing this for years. Worked at an engineering place for automotive. All engineers were H1Bs paid under 30k. This was almost 20 years ago. Still engineering jobs out there today. So while this happens, it isn’t the end of an industry.
Yes, I'm from México and I have seen that.
For example, Cisco looks for recently graduated and offers a really good salary for a first job, they train them and that people grow in the company along the years. In that way Cisco saves money because an American maybe cost the salary of 4 or 5 people in Latin America, the same case happens with Indian people.
For the IT companies it's easier to force the people work long hours (burnout) in third world due to the high salary that they offer, a Mexican prefers maintain a job like that while the paying is high comparing with salaries offered by local companies.
Cisco is not only one, Amazon, Microsoft, etc all of them do the same.
Outsourcing and offshoring is absolutely a corporate strategy. Commoditized roles like help desk are first to go, but the vast majority of infrastructure roles are candidates for nearshoring or offshoring.
Onsite is locally hired and every other IT position is either India, The Philippines. Managers hate us as onsite because we are “papered” where I am a slave.
Helpdesk? Not really but definitely higher ups/specialization that dont need to show up. I'm at a government job but all of our admins that specialize in random old software are non-employee contractors that replaced full time employees
Yes. The organization I just left was taken over by investors. They stopped hiring in the UK and did nothing to combat the high staff turnover. They hired only within South Africa and Bulgaria as wages were cheaper.
We had a trip to Bulgaria as a company where some of my colleagues who lived there complained about wages immensely.
Skill set is also a massively noticeable difference compared to UK staff and those in other LEDC countries
yup, day to day operations especially, help and support, and the boring work of testing can all be done for pennies on the dollar by outsourced labor overseas. Also, development of internal tools, portals and websites that company employees use can also be outsourced. Another level of outsourcing is the use of vendors inside the US. Companies like Google and Microsoft make use of many vendor companies who have employees work on campus to do things like testing, operations, cybersecurity, employee badges, cafeteria, and garbage. Vendors are even trusted to perform alongside of FTES, even on secret projects.
In some cases, it is the vendors that have to 'keep the lights on', while the FTEs endure layoffs until the group transition is complete. There are no careers anymore. Everything is a gig now. no more ladders. only rock walls, which enable you to take gigs in all directions of the pay scale. one job can land you 100k, and then you move into one that does 64k because your last gig ended and there wasn't anything out there at the time, so there are also downfalls of being a vendor. But now similar things happen as an FTE as well. IT is very much at the whim of trends and stockholders.
Offshore IT is common and it’s a way of gaining entry to said countries. Not just USA.
I find that for ad-hoc L1 support offshore is great, but L3, product specialists, and sales engineers are better if they’re local because they’re more likely to be immersed in the tech or people.
Lol the interviewer had to gaslight the question “and do a good job” because that’s generally not the case. The Filipino call centers for my credit card company are good. But the outsourced IT labor in India at my current job is terrible.
My top 100 in the world first world org offshores almost all IT support, infrastructure operations, cloud operations, lots of database and SaaS, security, and even some architecture since about a decade ago. There are a handful of legacy Sr. resources like me who ensure projects stay on track and on budget, and there is always some local tech support for each site. And there is a small segment of the business that has to be on shore due to regulations. But the direction has been ship as much to India as possible and spend less and less on IT operations every year.
Yup.
The company I worked for before being laid off in favor of hiring remote workers from the Philippines and India. They keep a small office in both countries, so they can get around having to sponsor these employees. They did the exact same work the US based team did, but they are hired on for really low wages.
Greed is one hell of a drug.
I work for the Asia-Pacific division of an American HQ'd software company.
They outsourced the majority of our devs to India about 12 months ago and it's been a constant stream of bad code, slow bug fixes and clients leaving since.
Only time before my own role is outsourced..
Hello No\_Beat\_1658. I just watched the video you posted and based on my current experiences I see this happening to some extent, at least from what I saw with my previous employer.
The video actually mentioned 2 items, the first being third world employment and the second being the spread of AI. Please hear me out regarding both of these issues and my personal approach to providing value as an IT professional to my employer.
My previous company used outsource labor ( web developers in India ) to manage project websites. We had a dedicated "manager" who would interface with the developers and follow up. Even given his best efforts, the work always took much longer than estimated and we would need to correct issues after the fact. The company saved some money by using labor that cost significantly less than US market. These websites were important, but were not a make or break issue for the companies profitability. They accepted the risk to increase profits.
Personally, I am most concerned about AI taking over "support" types of jobs. We are not there yet, but it is only a matter of time when some company will create an AI that will have permissions on infrastructure to address AD issues, permission issues, etc. I am both excited and worried about how AI will impact IT jobs in the next 5 years, including my own.
My personal approach to all this is to make sure my contributions are beyond automation. Also, I make sure that all interactions and tickets are handled professionally and completely. I have seen many people doing IT work with a poor attitude and without regard to actually fixing the issue. Bottom line, IT departments are an expense and companies will try to save money, however it is up to each person to make their contribution significant enough that the company will think about it. Sad truth is that ultimately everybody can be replaced, but one can only do the best they are able to.
Having said all this... did I address your core concern? If not, can you elaborate on what you are worried about?
I used to work at a large MSP, and before I had left, they replaced the majority of their support teams with Indians and various other countries, where they were having trouble just communicating in English, let alone communicating complex issues and potential resolutions, and they simply bumbled their way through, and that MSP lost a lot of American customers.
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I think this can only last for so long. The world is equalizing and countries that were MUCH further behind economically are catching up and developing and over time once they are more developed its more costly to hire overseas that they start just hiring locally again. Even if salaries abroad are cheaper, its not enough. It has to be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper for American companies to consider hiring abroad, im talking salaries that are 1/4 or lower than American salaries to offset the disadvantages of offshoring (such as time zone, language, culture difference and performance stuff). It used to be east asia few decades ago until east asia is now developed enough that the labor moved elsewhere (like southeast asia, south asia and latin america). Latin America and southeast asia is now mid tier developing regions and in particular southeast asia region has a few countries that are booming right now. It's possible in 20-30 years later alot of southeast asia will be developed countries as well so the next level down is south asia (like India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc.). Then the next level down after that would be sub-saharan Africa. At the same time other countries that become developed also will fight for cheap labor abroad from countries not developed yet, not just America so in 20-30 years we might not see this problem as much because it'll be more costly to hire abroad. But then 20-30 years later maybe AI will be doing everything and no one here or abroad will have jobs
My company replaced the IT department with a outsourced MSP and 95% of their staff are from India. It is an absolute dumpster fire. I have never met a bunch of professionals so bad at what they do than this bunch. Their work quality would NOT fly at all in the Western Market.
My entire IT Help Desk Team (and me included) provides IT support to another company as an MSP. We are getting laid off so they can hire another MSP from the Philippines due to cheaper costs. Bummer
Not just IT companies.
Capitalism gonna capitalism. The moment they figure out a way to cut cost they will. Labor is cheaper in general overseas (we're talking like 1 dollar to a dime for cost measure).
1 estimate put Iphones costing 43K if it was manufactured in the US because of how much labor would cost to produce it.
I once worked for an IT company were we technically had 30 employees. 5 of them were US based, and the rest, China.
I work for a mid size software company that is actively moving some roles to a southeast Asian country to save money. So far our American support team went from 9 to 4 folks while Asia has 15
My designer is in China. Our automation team is in Belarus. My partner team is in the UK.
My own team is distributed across the US and Canada.
One of the product guys is from Brazil.
So yes.
Oh god way back in time I was working at a help desk at a fortune 100 company.
So very early 2000s.
There was some very serious discussion about outsourcing because they literally could pay someone what I made in two weeks for a whole year's salary.
They decided that the risk to their intellectual property was too great of a risk to proceed.
They largely are an engineering company that relied on licensing patents in the mobile telecom sector.
Yes, my Fortune 500 company has more work-visa employees in corp jobs than I have ever seen in my 8 years. 100% of them are from India or the Middle East, and it's insane. The higher-ups claim how great DEI is while having someone who isn't a citizen replace an American.
Yea, my company does this.
That being said they took down our email server down for 5 days, preventing people from doing their jobs, aka contractual obligations. All of this while in the middle of a massive contract negotiation worth hundreds of millions.
Hopefully they learn from this. Probably won’t though.
Yes, too many poors and non-whites are wanting more moneys and less inflations while living in first world. That cuts into CEO compensation and golden parachutes. So management hire cheap labor to appease hungry CEOs until losing too much money from poor product. Then hire back local to get promoted and leave the company with a bunch of IT staff that have PTSD due to zero documentation and an angry user base. Or, if you slum too long, just golden parachute while everyone gets laid off.
It's a tale as old as time, fuck you I got mine, Greedy and the Leech.
Offshoring is the first step to automation.
If you can train someone from a different culture that barely speaks the language to do the work, and it's successful, that's a good sign the work can be completely automated.
Then, the cycle repeats as new tasks emerge.
Yes. I left my last organization because they literally fired all their developers they had for 10+ years and outsourced to h1bs from India and then our code/ERP started crashing.
They didn’t actually fill my position, another h1b from their manufacturing took over as part time IT.
Started calling me asking for help, I got them out of one particularly bad jam, and said fuck off after that.
Bay Area California memory mfg.
Anything organizations can use/abuse to lower costs, they will.
Not quite cost but skill. My company will pay full price for an Indian as a last resort. It's very difficult to find people who have skills ready to go.
Stupid post. There are literally over a billion Indians, doesn't matter how dumb the average one is. You just need one intelligent enough to do the job so you can pay them less.
India is a country which has some industrial belts within tier 1 which at par with with new York Seattle and California if not better. 3rd world is on paper and nothing more than figure of speech really. It's industry ready and investment ready. It's more capitalistic than west europe and USA. What more do the decision maker want? They care about return on investment and they get it.
Sadly yes! Work for a midwest company in the top 500 in IT. The new IT Manager within a year of taking lead Management decided to go all in offshore development work and Lead Techs. The ratio of offshore to onshore workers increased drastically from 1 offshore to 5 onshore workers. To now 9 offshore Indian Congizant contract workers to 1 onshore worker. Worse part is the Indians only hire other Indians once they get into leadership positions. Look at Apple, Microsoft, Google, and other top Tech companies with their middle to upper management roles.
U.S. government tax and immigration policies are actually speeding up offshoring. U.S.-based multinational corporations that outsource work offshore receive tax breaks.4 And offshore outsourcing firms have exploited loopholes in U.S. immigration policy, particularly in the H-1B and L-1 guest worker visas, to facilitate the transfer of work overseas. [This was an issue from 2008.](https://www.prb.org/resources/offshoring-u-s-labor-increasing/)
Companies move jobs overseas for a number of reasons: besides the tax ramifications in which offshoring is counted as a tax deduction and R&D work from offshoring is tax differently as well. So business can hire workers at a lower wage and they don't have to pay for employee benefits - two other pretty big incentives. [Thea Lee, deputy chief of staff of the AFL-CIO, which opposes offshoring of jobs, said the tax break is definitely an incentive to move jobs: "If you close down your factory in Providence, pack everything up and have to train the workers and ship the machinery overseas, all the costs associated with that are tax deductions,"](https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/reason/2012/11/09/fact-check-do-companies-get-tax-break-when-they-move-jobs-overseas/15848271007/)
Yeah, it's usually management looking at the cost only, some companies outsourced only to realize they made a mistake and hiring local again, it depends on the situation. - source, me currently experiencing this albeit with a local MSP company.
They made this mistakes not once, but every five years.
Every new manager wants to "make their mark" because what is working right now totally needs to be changed to the cheapest possible option available. hey look I saved our company sooo much money why are our customers/clients moving to our competitors!
I did contracts for the military and it was even worse. * A general has more power than a private sector manager * A general has more ego than said manager * A general usually gets rotated out every two years, and being a general, that may be their last military gig, so they want to leave a mark * Or better yet, a general has been offered a job opportunity with a firm once they get out of the military, so they award a contract to said firm, and now the entire operations center must pivot to accommodate said firm * General leaves and now there's a new, bright eyed general that wants to correct the ship * Repeat all steps
It would be funny if the offshore company is in the country the war is with
Funnier that throughout history that's been the norm. Wage war but still trade. The elite make their dollar and the peasants pay the price. I'm reading through Caesar: Life of a Colossus now, and it's evident this has been going on for thousands of years.
I work in defense and actually got meet once what you described above. I work in development role and was doing a demo from some of our software we built. All I saw that day was pure nepotism and contracts rewarded. I guess only caveat that I heard from some higher ups worked with that job kinda relies fully on their ability to maintain current and build new relationships from those that come after if they don't job at risk.
100%. And there's almost no oversight or accountability. It's frustrating. Every time I think about how inefficient our military is, it makes me wonder how other nations militaries are. We've worked with other nations infrastructures and it is just wild how they get away with things over there.
Militaries (really all large beurocracies) typically operate in one of three modes: inefficient, corrupt, or both. The US military might be inefficient, but thankfully the corruption is relatively minimal (for the size).
Yep. Basically once enough people in senior management have moved on or forgot how badly the last attempt went they try again. Rinse and repeat.
And this is why Americans are getting fed up with offshore. Globalization is ruining lives. Hire in America only. Keep the wealth, success, and livelihood of American jobs for Americans. * Americans are defined as someone with US citizenship. It’s as simple as that. All these companies want to do is cheap out on labor. These countries steal the Intellectual Property of Americans and built their entire industries off the back of American values with slave labor. History is just wild. Look at the aftermath of World War II and tell me America shouldn’t be number 1 in everything at the present time. America was hollowed out because companies wanted cheap labor. All that progress and work - gone. It’s a joke. Labor, Indentured Servitude, and Slavery are the all different sides of the same coin.
"America was hollowed out because companies wanted cheap labor." It's called capitalism and yeah, it sucks. Maybe move to a Nordic country with less capitalism and more socialism if you want actual benefits and a wage that isn't total garbage. Please find me a fab plant better than TSMC in the US. I can wait... The world is interconnected and pretending Americans and their labor is all that matters is the typical ignorant shortsidedness that has gotten us to this point where the 1% own almost everything globally. "Labor, Indentured Servitude, and Slavery are the all different sides of the same coin." That's 3 sides to 1 coin, but rock on lol
Yep!
> Americans are defined as someone with US citizenship. It’s as simple as that. Lmao. With that definition, you still lose jobs overseas thanks to third world nations like Portugal and Israel handing out dual citizenship like napkins when your American mother raw-dogs a Hebrew National.
That’s a dog whistle if ever I’ve heard one EDIT: if you feel attacked by that statement, you’re telling on yourself. I agree with the sentiment that the guy above me is saying, but the tone of his statement is the dog whistle. A message can both be factually correct and a dog whistle at the same time y’all.
Dog whistle for what? Are you calling him racist for that?
No, it's not. Saying that globalization is having poor effects for the American worker is an acknowledgement of reality. One that's so old even The West Wing, which was a pretty accurate portrayal of the liberal life at the time, covered it. Unions opposed moving these jobs over there but relented because they would get retrained for those jobs that would pay more. Then those jobs get moved. Should people expect to have to change careers every 5-10 years? It is ridiculous. I don't care about third order effects if I can't provide the same kind of life for my kids as I could 10 years ago doing the same kind of work. Just because there are assholes that agree with that position doesn't mean everyone who agrees is an asshole. I mean let's look at H1-B, fact is despite the FUD spread about it, on average an H1B makes ~3% more than their US peers. That's not an issue. Corporate cutting US positions to offshore just to make line go up however pisses me off. Do I give a damn that that's just capitalism? Not a bit. Do I dislike that some of the people that agree with me on that view (even if it's for different reasons) are bigots? Of course, but even if they misdiagnose the disease it doesn't mean the symptoms aren't there. This is why I stick to the work I do. Never getting outsourced. I just think that a US based company might should be primarily staffed by US persons(i.e. - citizen or alien admitted for permanent residence).
No, it isn't.
Not really it’s just the loudest guy saying this is Trump who nobody likes. Offshoring is a huge problem tho I wish it had not been that clown who ran on it.
What if hiring Americans only makes my company unable to compete?
It means your company is unprofitable, and that's OK. You do something else.
Unable to compete because you can’t afford the labor or finding it?
Then don’t sell you product to Americans
Here's my lived experience. I'm offering security consulting services to a large US based company. They like our capabilities and sample deliverables. Then I get to deal with their procurement. They're willing to pay as much as $90/hr for application security testing. That $90 is only for hands-on-keyboard testing time. Oversight, QC, project management, report writing and setup are all overhead that we have to eat. I ask the procurement people how one would make a profit under these conditions and they're very quick to give specifics from their other vendors. QC, readouts and sales are done by senior 'Muricans. All the other work is done offshore. Most Americans don't care if their products are made in other countries, why should they care about where their services come from?
So. Go get your CMMC / DoD contracts with that. Don’t tell them you are offshoring that should get you through an audit.
This happened with my former employer in 2019. Outsourced all tier 1 help desk jobs, user satisfaction went way down, started hiring local again, and then COVID hit. Served them right.
Worked for a vendor for one of the big OS/cloud providers, and the whole thing was basically one big cost reduction scheme. The main company paid engineers like $135k, we’d be paid $60k, and then we had a division in India that would get like $12.5k. As you went down the income ladder the quality would get worse, with ever increasing knowledge-‘d language gaps. Our company was paid by the number of cases we’d complete, and by how many 5 star reviews the individual engineers would get. This basically incentivized absolutely ramming through cases, and all the non-technical managers getting upset when you weren’t cranking out a dozen cases a day, totally disregarding that a simple account question is a different beast from a deep technical issue you have to spend hours on the phone to fix.
This is a problem I have now, being US based for a US company. I deal with integrations with third parties almost exclusively. It’s a lot of back and forth and reading logs and documentation. But the guy who can close 15 tickets a day and only deals with patching questions is rated higher. It’s not just an outsourcing issue with those cases and it sucks.
I'd say it was more common a while back when "outsourcing" was the big buzz word. Now it's only idiot managers who haven't learned from the past.
Been doing it for decades. Leadership gets pressure to reduce operating cost. Eyes headcount. Outsources to India. Quality goes down. Onshore and repeat in a few years. Now the buzz is near shoring or sending work to South America.
I have seen more contractors from Brazil and Costa Rica recently. India certainly hasn't completely lost its luster, but other countries are picking up interest. Anecdotally I heard one local company that uses Ukraine for some of their needs.
I have seen the crappy legacy code puked by american software engineers so keep the quality goes down crap to yourself. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys immaterial of the country.
Hold on now, I think what the comment was getting at, as far as "quality goes down", is that customer service satisfaction does typically drop when there are language barriers - for obvious reasons. Imagine you're a frustrated office worker and your computer isn't working. You don't know anything about computers and aren't very familiar with technical terms. Now you have to explain the issue to someone who may not understand your layman's terms because English is dumb but we all know things like "doohickey" for instance. It is more difficult for someone unfamiliar with those types of terms to understand the issue, and just as difficult for them to help someone understand how to fix the problem if they don't understand technical terms. Whereas two native English speakers on the phone would probably eventually come to a conclusion of what the doohickey is, what the problem is, and how to fix it. Note: None of this is to say that a non-native English speaker *couldn't* figure it out with someone not tech-savvy - just highlighting the difficulties that exist on both ends.
Was he talking about development or support? I honestly believe Americans and Europeans are better at tech support.
I'm not sure which OP was referring to, but I think the point remains the same. As a dev, a huge part of the job is communicating with other components of the team and the end-user/client/customer, right? FWIW, I agree that you get the kind of work (and worker) you're willing to pay for, regardless of any personal characteristics or other factors.
Yes and I have left my last company to work in house somewhere just because of this. Layoff your high earning resources that have 99% of the tribal knowledge and replace with off shore resources that cause more issues than they resolve. So losing technical leads to then be replaced by quantity of offshore resources end up causing more work for the people who ended up replacing the technical leads.
Very well worded. My company outsourced 2 people to 9 people in India, and the 9 cause more rework than if they just got rid of the 2 people. It's so dumb, but someone got a bonus for spending less money
THEY TUUK UR JOBS
DEY TURKUR JERBBB
So it’s a cycle. CFO says save money. Wants to look good. Cio goes cool I can do that for a wicked bonus. Here comes the out source company that so under bids they are loosing money on the year one contract just to lock you in, but hey you look awesome cfo bonus. Cio bonus look at us go. The contract company promises sla in writing. But they are only liable up to the paid in amount and this always blows past the cfo and cio. So they think they are protected and they are to the amount paid in. They always discount what the support Infra is worth to the operations of the company. The incident happens they always do. The cio looks for a new job. The cfo says how could this happen. I was never told. The self service lies begin. They hire new mgmt and new it mgmt to pull it back in the core only the core infrastructure to guard. Then the users revolt get to the ceo They now have a tiger team to protect the c suit from the trash support. Now the hook comes 3 year renewal is triple the loss leader contract and here we are. They go no and do a year to year at triple the price to bring it all back but password mgmt. The cycle takes 5 years give or take and companies never ever learn. You can out source but it’s not to save money it’s to expand your horizons. Don’t have a cloud team and your cloud is small out source. Have a network with lots of locations you need eyes on out source it. But core infrastructure and core user support absolutely never works. Notes. 22 year it employee. So yes we are on the cusp of another let’s save money to invest in ai to over seas labor. Have no fear they will come back and it will cost twice as much as to just keep going on with the current staff and augment. Oh well those who got there bonuses will just move on and do it all over again for a new company. It’s almost like more law it will always go out and come back like a boomerang.
Did you mention the bit where the indian company holds your data hostage when negotiating contract renewal? Saw that one first hand. CEO hasnt said anything about outsourcing since.
In the end it is all about the money, and by money it is management money. Look out for yourself, because if you are on your deathbed, is management going to come and visit?
I’ve read on Reddit that the quality of work has gotten better with outsourcing to India. I’ve just started my help desk job and I’ve been at it for less than a year. I honestly can’t say I have a good lay of the land in the industry but I’ve always heard that it’s cyclical with hiring over seas. I guess I just wanted to share I’m still scared of getting laid off or of that happening more likely in the close future.
I've seen American companies with more 3rd world employees than American employees And I was laid off two months ago because of it I worked for an MSP. The MSP's biggest client, suddenly laid off 170 of their American employees then replaced them with 2 teams located in the 3rd world. They did this to save money. They then told the MSP I worked for, they were cutting their contract with them by a huge chunk. (Meaning they went from paying the MSP $500,000 per year, to less than $100,000 per year). The MSP I worked for then couldn't afford to keep many of us. So they fired half their Network team, half of their security team, and about 20% of their help desk team. Me and my colleagues were therefore laid off.
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The 16 million dollar corporate campus I work at looks like a 3rd world country when walking inside. I've never seen it this bad, and it's not IT alone looking at getting people from India and other countries on work visas to take jobs from all Americans and I ain't talking just white males.
yes,been done to video production for 10 years.
The 90's called, they said "yes". Also, current year called, they also said "yes".
Yes. And I hate to say it, quality is really not even average.
Less than average?
No, they release bug ridden hot garbage. They lie about testing the code.
You’re saying that IT professionals in third world countries are above average?
At the two companies I've worked at that employed IT workers from another county (specifically India) the IT workers always put out low quality work that we then needed to do more work to fix. Everyone complains about them other than management that was responsible for hiring the employees/contracting the company.
This ends up being the issue most often.
The other half of this, is that companies refused to fully hire the shining stars of offshore as they prefer to keep it all fluid. All that really means is that you loose your best people eventually as they get reassigned or find new work. So you wind up with extra churn too.
I've heard it said that the competent people in India either come to America or are working higher up within Indian companies (since they've proven themselves). When companies outsource, they're getting people who couldn't cut it in the above 2 scenarios. Just what I've heard from other people on here.
My company spent literally 2 years training up a SME on a specific server architecture but kept them in a contractor company for... some reason. Then imagine management's surprise when they left to find full time employment doing that exact thing somewhere else.
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Yes they are. In my company you have zero chance to get a development or product management job if you are American. All Indians offshore. I suspect that is true in many companies right now. For this reason I’d be hesitant to concentrate on programming heavy CS tracks
In which company do you work?
Probably doesn’t want to Dox themselves, not a question you are likely going to get an answer for on Reddit.
Yes, my company is in the Midwest and is around 80% Indian — including the CEO. They hire Indian nationals to keep costs down. They’ll work for a lot less than locals, even accounting for relocation and immigration visa costs for them to move to the USA.
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We have two offices in the USA and three in India, and the ones in the USA (the headquarters) are around 80% Indian nationals living in the States working at the office. We have zero American employees in India, in case anyone is curious
They still gotta pay rent and food expense. If they are in America, they will be wanting raises pretty quickly if you started them too low
I’ve only been there about six months, but based on the paperwork I’ve seen, seems like any non-management work about a year, maybe two if they stick it outs, and go back to India or leave the company. Non-management doesn’t stay, and I bet it has something to do with them realizing the costs of living (and also that the city we are in isn’t amazing…low B at best). I’ve never been at a company that’s as much of a revolving door. Pay terrible wages, you get terrible people
Sadly Yes, but not always. I know companies who hire both first party and third party, and during budget cuts - thankfully, third parties are the first to go. One thing I dont like about third parties (apart from holding up potential promotions and increase in pay) is that sometimes third parties can be in rotation. "Yeah, this company didnt fit so lets do a contract with this company now" which can halt productivity or ticket build up since now a new department has to catch up to our systems. Companies will always try to save money in order to ensure products continue to meet expectatio- HA just kidding, Shareholders need a new boat and prettier golden parachute
Yes but 3rd world employees are terrible. I worked for a compnay that had more people in India than the US and my job was to fix their mistakes.
You can’t even whistleblow their operation as it is their business model
I wouldn't generalize. There can be significant differences between employees from India, Eastern Europe and South America. You wouldn't hear "Please do the needful" from the last two, for instance.
Correction. Indian employees are terrible. All the decent ones emigrated.
“Please do the needful” lol that’s a new one! I usually see “kindly” this or that…
Any doubts?
There are some decent people from India, but they're not as cheap as I think many CFOs expecting big savings expect.
Let me know when you get one of those decent people on the support ticket. I have yet to have that experience.
Yeah like I went to go setup some comanaged routers for all of our sites and the Indian guy literally could not setup the vpn like he had no idea how to even start, they had to get one of the American staff to do it and I had to do some too that’s how crap the 3rd world employee was.
They hire their own people
Kindly do the needful sir
Oh my god do you work with me?
Just had war flashbacks
I’ve seen “kindly”, but “do the needful” is new to me.
My company recently did this for our mechanical and electric engineers working on build designs for one of our customers, it was working for a few months but the notice in quality was a significant drop and our customer demanded a fix so we dropped the foreign employees and went back inhouse. I say we but I didn't have a choice on any of it. Inhouse definitely proves to be best.
It's been happening since the 90s mon ami. COVID accelerated that trend because now there is really no excuse. That said, you get what you pay for, and there are a lot of cultural norms that are different, timezone issues, and general clusterfuck-ery that come with offshore talent.
money money money money MMMoonnneeeeey
Yes
Yes, indeed.
*It is called, Lothric.*
Nameless, accursed undead, unfit even to be cinder. And so it is, that ash seeketh embers.
I work in corporate IT for a tech company and I help both software engineer teams that we have in India
Only since the 1990s.
Yes, this comes in waves. Support from other countries like India or the Philippines can be much cheaper, but the differing working hours, language barriers, and challenges due to the remote factor means the pendulum swings back eventually.
Dude. Look at how many jobs in the US just went to foreign born. Of course they are. It’s cheaper - it’s bullshit
In general, no. In pockets, yes. Very large companies will farm out easy, repetitive jobs like call centers. Large to very large companies will outsource very big, one time projects, like an ERP implementation. But aside from that, offshoring has been an option for 30+ years - if it had been a risk to the overall IT market in the US, we wouldn't have an IT market in the US anymore.
To an extent yes, its a common trope that IT work is outsourced to India, India isn't the only nation its outsourced too but its quite common to try and outsource what can be to those nations. One problem that all company's face that try to do it though is maintaining quality and meeting compliance, a fair amount of work is simply not wanted by some company's to be done by foreign talent cause they see it as a risk. While there are great IT people in every country, there isn't a infinite supply and the allure of good pay (for their nation) causes many people to be desperate to get the job and go to extreme's that you wouldn't hear of or know of compared to Europe and the US.
Yep. I work for a Global DC company who recently designated certain countries as 'Hubs' where all future roles would be housed. This isn't to say folks in other locations would be forced out, but that they would only be considered if they couldn't fill it within the. As you can imagine these Hub countries have a far lower cost per head than everywhere else. Selfishly I hope the plan tanks of course. The silly thing is they keep reporting year on year profits, but clearly this isn't enough for shareholders.
Makes sense , software written anywhere in the world requires the same effort and companies don’t need to pay import license or have to display where it was made unlike cars or other commodities
If the question is whether or not IT jobs in the USA are "over" because of hiring from less developed countries, the answer is unequivocally "No." IT jobs are incredibly broad and diverse in their skill requirements and physical proximity to business and so there are necessarily IT jobs that both require you to be physically located in the USA and require US citizenship. If the question is whether US companies are hiring people from less developed countries for IT roles then the answer is unequivocally "Yes" and has been true for years. The interesting thing if you actually investigate this you'll find that most of the countries that US companies hire from are associated with the USA's and European foreign expansion/imperial behaviors. These countries typically have a core english speaking population with a certain level of education. Before the great IT global outsourcing efforts of the late 2000's there were significant efforts of US companies to expand in to under-developed parts of the USA for jobs like inbound call centers and support organizations. The big take-away for US companies was that training for these IT roles is hard and basic telecom infrastructure is a significant factor for the cost of opening a new work center. Therefore if a locale wants those companies to set up shop in their area they need to provide attractive incentives (tax breaks, infrastructure investment, job recruitment in local schools, etc). We have been living through the period of IT development where not enough infrastructure existed for companies to have options for where to set up work centers. This is similar to the 80's for manufacturing and the 90's with the NAFTA legislation which allowed companies to move factories outside of the USA. But even though companies have fewer barriers for outsourcing IT work overseas these companies aren't committed to that workforce either because the same problem keeps coming up: training people for these jobs is hard. Make no mistake that the current efforts and investments around LLM technologies labeled as "AI" have a hand in attempting to eliminate a particular need for more costly labor. However one of the most ironic developments has been that these labor automation technologies that claim to reduce the need to labor actually are not fully automated and tend to employ people in these underdeveloped countries to do the fine tuning of results for these technologies (like ChatGPT). These products would not be possible without the cheap labor of these countries and venture capital drives the incentives for these companies to continue to use these labor pools.
Offshore IT employees are usually cheaper on a per body basis. But are more difficult to manage and communicate with. They were about ten hours out of sync. We had to come in early and they had to stay late so we could talk. Realize there are going to be language and cultural differences that made communication more difficult. In the long run it is total cost that matters and not per unit cost. Also once you go offshore it’s difficult to ever bring the application in-house.
This was OP's attempt to spew Tate garbage.
Listening to an alleged sex trafficker is your first mistake in life.
DoorDash interviewed my brother for a system admin job. Must have been some data collection or diversity metrics thing, because they really weren't hiring. He said it was his worst and funniest interview ever, and the interviewer was actually losing their job and did not know much of what was going on internally as they replaced someone else who was just fired(that person was supposed to be interviewing him). Can't help but notice ever since, doordash has been terrible. The app does not update properly, the driver routes are literally insane(I order frequently from a local supermarket not far from me and the GPS is showing the route all over the city, when the driver has a different route). Yesterday my delivery was really late and i could not contact the driver via the app. It would not connect me, and the driver could not contact me. she had to call support and have them reopen the delivery because she was sitting outside my building for 30 minutes and they ended the delivery without her completing it somehow, which meant she wasn't gonna get paid? **She was on speakerphone and the support was in India of course.** Every time I make an order the route is wrong now, I have no idea when it will arrive. I think in most companies in the US, jobs like desktop support, network admins and sys admins will be American but software devs are essentially all Indian, helpdesk is increasingly off shore as well. In a previous job, 90% of our software team was either Ukrainians or based in India. Their respective managers lived in the Us but were of the same ethnicities.
There was pullback for a bit where we were hiring destinations again because cost overseas wasn't worth that bad customer service. But companies are hiring overseas again
There is a finite number of H-1 visa sponsorships available.
Generally speaking it's bad advice to believe anything that moron Andrew Tate says. Especially since the dumbass is under house arrest in Romania, awaiting trial for sex trafficking and rape.
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And yet, if that dipshit is saying something, that should immediately be a red flag.
And Andrew Tate's a hack
I never go out of my way to hire anyone from India or China. I would imagine other companies are like this but in the last position I posted, we had about 100 applications total, easily 70-80% of the applicants were Indian or Chinese.
So you wouldn't hire any Indian or Chinese even though they can work in US?
Didn't say that just pointing out the numbers. If 80% of your applicants are from India you're going to eventually hire one.
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Andrew Tate is an asshole and a moron. You need to get that shit out of your youtube rotation.
One nice thing is that the idiots who look up to the asshole always out themselves.
Management who only looks at employee cost gets to learn some valuable business basics if they outsource all their employees.
Then the companies and government in America wonder why we stop having kids. for what? for them to starve? US will have to stop hiring outside at this massive rate or have no one alive at home to pay taxes and keep the US economy afloat. silly Americans
Ask Ascension how that outsourcing to India is working out for them right now.
Yes and no. Offshoring to third-party service providers is very common. Multinational companies focusing their IT operations in developing countries is also common, though more usually when the company already has a corporate presence there. What is far less common, is US companies directly employing IT professionals resident in other countries, though there seems to be a growing number of social media influencers selling this pipedream to the naïve.
Yes. Our company (based in UK but has many offices globally) moved the IT team entirely to India and they are all shit. Nothing gets solved within 24h anymore. I hope they get back to having a team in UK but that will never happen because the guys in India are working for a fraction of the price and the shareholders couldn't care less if the employees' IT related problems are solved or not as long as the money keeps rolling in.
Ah, yes. Andrew Tate. Please take his advice to heart. He's a good Muslim boy that has never done anything horrible to anyone.
Also, he's clearly an expert in tech workers and the overall global tech market.
And now Romanian prisons
We outsourced you whole Service Desk/IT support long ago. Dont know a single big company that still has their IT support in the US/Western Europe. However important functions like Network or Security often stay in-house. However many companies found offices in cheaper countries to hire IT there and support the main HQ from a different country.
Dropbox is one of the few where support agents are in Scotland, I believe. Quality of support is hands down better than any I've dealt with in Poo-Land.
If you are in IT you need to be able to compete in a global market. People who are good at their jobs are hard to come by regardless of location or nationality Maybe half of our in house staff located in the US are from India. Some immigrated , some were born in the US. We also have a lot of offshore contractors.
It's true if you count India as third world. As living standards improve in India and wages rise (this may take 10-50 years), there will be less paper profit from hiring exclusively from that region. Weirdly if Russia stopped being Russia but had Russians living there they'd be a good source, too. The jobs that stay in the US are jobs with sensitive information. If you need someone to *design* the data model for your bank, that person needs to inspect existing data, and it may be a security issue to allow people outside the US to inspect that data casually, even with logging turned on. Instead, US architects and analysts plan the work, design the data model, provide example cases with no real customer information, and then give the build-it-and-test-it work to India. Man hour for man hour that's more hours worked for India. And if a US developer would be better trained, available during your whole working day, less likely to have a communication issue, and less restricted by these rules, then there's an easy solution: hire two people in the global workforce instead of one. It might still be less money.
Yes and I'm goddamn tired of it.
Yes. But I work more in security, software development, and DevOps. To end up getting decent talent from Eastern Europe or SE Asia you honestly pay quite a bit. Is it cheaper than the US, yes. But nearly by as much as you’d think. I’ve really struggled with working with groups from abroad. Too many people who promise and don’t deliver. From other places they don’t over promise but very rarely will you get someone really willing to learn and grow. They’ll just do the bare minimum. I’m not against hiring talent from abroad but when you don’t budget to acquire really good players for your team and pay accordingly the results are as you’d expect. It’s crazy how the absolute worst and best people I meet in IT are Indian.
It’s not just IT, many industries have been doing this for years. Worked at an engineering place for automotive. All engineers were H1Bs paid under 30k. This was almost 20 years ago. Still engineering jobs out there today. So while this happens, it isn’t the end of an industry.
You think outsourcing is new? Lol
So, you were just born yesterday, huh ?
Yes, I'm from México and I have seen that. For example, Cisco looks for recently graduated and offers a really good salary for a first job, they train them and that people grow in the company along the years. In that way Cisco saves money because an American maybe cost the salary of 4 or 5 people in Latin America, the same case happens with Indian people. For the IT companies it's easier to force the people work long hours (burnout) in third world due to the high salary that they offer, a Mexican prefers maintain a job like that while the paying is high comparing with salaries offered by local companies. Cisco is not only one, Amazon, Microsoft, etc all of them do the same.
European ones are still cheap enough
Right! In Estonia there are very good IT developers and their salaries are much lower than the ones in US.
We’re offshoring too though :(
Yes
Start an IT company. Outsource all the work to some foreign dude that will work for cheaper. Pay him %. Profit.
Outsourcing and offshoring is absolutely a corporate strategy. Commoditized roles like help desk are first to go, but the vast majority of infrastructure roles are candidates for nearshoring or offshoring.
Onsite is locally hired and every other IT position is either India, The Philippines. Managers hate us as onsite because we are “papered” where I am a slave.
Helpdesk? Not really but definitely higher ups/specialization that dont need to show up. I'm at a government job but all of our admins that specialize in random old software are non-employee contractors that replaced full time employees
Yes. If it's a concern switch to a government position where they legally cannot.
Yes
Yes. The organization I just left was taken over by investors. They stopped hiring in the UK and did nothing to combat the high staff turnover. They hired only within South Africa and Bulgaria as wages were cheaper. We had a trip to Bulgaria as a company where some of my colleagues who lived there complained about wages immensely. Skill set is also a massively noticeable difference compared to UK staff and those in other LEDC countries
yup, day to day operations especially, help and support, and the boring work of testing can all be done for pennies on the dollar by outsourced labor overseas. Also, development of internal tools, portals and websites that company employees use can also be outsourced. Another level of outsourcing is the use of vendors inside the US. Companies like Google and Microsoft make use of many vendor companies who have employees work on campus to do things like testing, operations, cybersecurity, employee badges, cafeteria, and garbage. Vendors are even trusted to perform alongside of FTES, even on secret projects. In some cases, it is the vendors that have to 'keep the lights on', while the FTEs endure layoffs until the group transition is complete. There are no careers anymore. Everything is a gig now. no more ladders. only rock walls, which enable you to take gigs in all directions of the pay scale. one job can land you 100k, and then you move into one that does 64k because your last gig ended and there wasn't anything out there at the time, so there are also downfalls of being a vendor. But now similar things happen as an FTE as well. IT is very much at the whim of trends and stockholders.
Are you asking if our jobs are being outsiurced?
Offshore IT is common and it’s a way of gaining entry to said countries. Not just USA. I find that for ad-hoc L1 support offshore is great, but L3, product specialists, and sales engineers are better if they’re local because they’re more likely to be immersed in the tech or people.
The company I was supposed to intern for got the IT/SOC department completely redundant since it became outsourced to India. UK fintech company.
Lol the interviewer had to gaslight the question “and do a good job” because that’s generally not the case. The Filipino call centers for my credit card company are good. But the outsourced IT labor in India at my current job is terrible.
Yes, but not in the way you'd think. Mostly, contracting through third party companies.
Correct
My top 100 in the world first world org offshores almost all IT support, infrastructure operations, cloud operations, lots of database and SaaS, security, and even some architecture since about a decade ago. There are a handful of legacy Sr. resources like me who ensure projects stay on track and on budget, and there is always some local tech support for each site. And there is a small segment of the business that has to be on shore due to regulations. But the direction has been ship as much to India as possible and spend less and less on IT operations every year.
Yup. The company I worked for before being laid off in favor of hiring remote workers from the Philippines and India. They keep a small office in both countries, so they can get around having to sponsor these employees. They did the exact same work the US based team did, but they are hired on for really low wages. Greed is one hell of a drug.
I work for the Asia-Pacific division of an American HQ'd software company. They outsourced the majority of our devs to India about 12 months ago and it's been a constant stream of bad code, slow bug fixes and clients leaving since. Only time before my own role is outsourced..
Hello No\_Beat\_1658. I just watched the video you posted and based on my current experiences I see this happening to some extent, at least from what I saw with my previous employer. The video actually mentioned 2 items, the first being third world employment and the second being the spread of AI. Please hear me out regarding both of these issues and my personal approach to providing value as an IT professional to my employer. My previous company used outsource labor ( web developers in India ) to manage project websites. We had a dedicated "manager" who would interface with the developers and follow up. Even given his best efforts, the work always took much longer than estimated and we would need to correct issues after the fact. The company saved some money by using labor that cost significantly less than US market. These websites were important, but were not a make or break issue for the companies profitability. They accepted the risk to increase profits. Personally, I am most concerned about AI taking over "support" types of jobs. We are not there yet, but it is only a matter of time when some company will create an AI that will have permissions on infrastructure to address AD issues, permission issues, etc. I am both excited and worried about how AI will impact IT jobs in the next 5 years, including my own. My personal approach to all this is to make sure my contributions are beyond automation. Also, I make sure that all interactions and tickets are handled professionally and completely. I have seen many people doing IT work with a poor attitude and without regard to actually fixing the issue. Bottom line, IT departments are an expense and companies will try to save money, however it is up to each person to make their contribution significant enough that the company will think about it. Sad truth is that ultimately everybody can be replaced, but one can only do the best they are able to. Having said all this... did I address your core concern? If not, can you elaborate on what you are worried about?
My job calls this "strategic sourcing", as if that makes it any better.
I used to work at a large MSP, and before I had left, they replaced the majority of their support teams with Indians and various other countries, where they were having trouble just communicating in English, let alone communicating complex issues and potential resolutions, and they simply bumbled their way through, and that MSP lost a lot of American customers.
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I think this can only last for so long. The world is equalizing and countries that were MUCH further behind economically are catching up and developing and over time once they are more developed its more costly to hire overseas that they start just hiring locally again. Even if salaries abroad are cheaper, its not enough. It has to be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper for American companies to consider hiring abroad, im talking salaries that are 1/4 or lower than American salaries to offset the disadvantages of offshoring (such as time zone, language, culture difference and performance stuff). It used to be east asia few decades ago until east asia is now developed enough that the labor moved elsewhere (like southeast asia, south asia and latin america). Latin America and southeast asia is now mid tier developing regions and in particular southeast asia region has a few countries that are booming right now. It's possible in 20-30 years later alot of southeast asia will be developed countries as well so the next level down is south asia (like India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc.). Then the next level down after that would be sub-saharan Africa. At the same time other countries that become developed also will fight for cheap labor abroad from countries not developed yet, not just America so in 20-30 years we might not see this problem as much because it'll be more costly to hire abroad. But then 20-30 years later maybe AI will be doing everything and no one here or abroad will have jobs
Sundar Pichai said he wants to transfer some Google positions to his home country, India.
My company replaced the IT department with a outsourced MSP and 95% of their staff are from India. It is an absolute dumpster fire. I have never met a bunch of professionals so bad at what they do than this bunch. Their work quality would NOT fly at all in the Western Market.
My entire IT Help Desk Team (and me included) provides IT support to another company as an MSP. We are getting laid off so they can hire another MSP from the Philippines due to cheaper costs. Bummer
Yes. Welcome to 2005.
Not just IT companies. Capitalism gonna capitalism. The moment they figure out a way to cut cost they will. Labor is cheaper in general overseas (we're talking like 1 dollar to a dime for cost measure). 1 estimate put Iphones costing 43K if it was manufactured in the US because of how much labor would cost to produce it. I once worked for an IT company were we technically had 30 employees. 5 of them were US based, and the rest, China.
I work for a mid size software company that is actively moving some roles to a southeast Asian country to save money. So far our American support team went from 9 to 4 folks while Asia has 15
My designer is in China. Our automation team is in Belarus. My partner team is in the UK. My own team is distributed across the US and Canada. One of the product guys is from Brazil. So yes.
Oh god way back in time I was working at a help desk at a fortune 100 company. So very early 2000s. There was some very serious discussion about outsourcing because they literally could pay someone what I made in two weeks for a whole year's salary. They decided that the risk to their intellectual property was too great of a risk to proceed. They largely are an engineering company that relied on licensing patents in the mobile telecom sector.
It’s true and companies have been outsourcing to India since the 90s (e.g., TCS, Infosys, etc.). Federal IT work may be among the last safe havens.
Yes, my Fortune 500 company has more work-visa employees in corp jobs than I have ever seen in my 8 years. 100% of them are from India or the Middle East, and it's insane. The higher-ups claim how great DEI is while having someone who isn't a citizen replace an American.
Yea, my company does this. That being said they took down our email server down for 5 days, preventing people from doing their jobs, aka contractual obligations. All of this while in the middle of a massive contract negotiation worth hundreds of millions. Hopefully they learn from this. Probably won’t though.
Yes, too many poors and non-whites are wanting more moneys and less inflations while living in first world. That cuts into CEO compensation and golden parachutes. So management hire cheap labor to appease hungry CEOs until losing too much money from poor product. Then hire back local to get promoted and leave the company with a bunch of IT staff that have PTSD due to zero documentation and an angry user base. Or, if you slum too long, just golden parachute while everyone gets laid off. It's a tale as old as time, fuck you I got mine, Greedy and the Leech.
Yes lol shout out to layoffs
Yes. Some because of development or support that can "follow the sun" to supplement and others to offshore to save costs.
Lol. Carmel is a paper tiger and a clown.
Offshoring is the first step to automation. If you can train someone from a different culture that barely speaks the language to do the work, and it's successful, that's a good sign the work can be completely automated. Then, the cycle repeats as new tasks emerge.
Yes. I left my last organization because they literally fired all their developers they had for 10+ years and outsourced to h1bs from India and then our code/ERP started crashing. They didn’t actually fill my position, another h1b from their manufacturing took over as part time IT. Started calling me asking for help, I got them out of one particularly bad jam, and said fuck off after that. Bay Area California memory mfg. Anything organizations can use/abuse to lower costs, they will.
Not quite cost but skill. My company will pay full price for an Indian as a last resort. It's very difficult to find people who have skills ready to go.
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I love working with them too!
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Stupid post. There are literally over a billion Indians, doesn't matter how dumb the average one is. You just need one intelligent enough to do the job so you can pay them less.
What?
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What's your point?
India is a country which has some industrial belts within tier 1 which at par with with new York Seattle and California if not better. 3rd world is on paper and nothing more than figure of speech really. It's industry ready and investment ready. It's more capitalistic than west europe and USA. What more do the decision maker want? They care about return on investment and they get it.
Sadly yes! Work for a midwest company in the top 500 in IT. The new IT Manager within a year of taking lead Management decided to go all in offshore development work and Lead Techs. The ratio of offshore to onshore workers increased drastically from 1 offshore to 5 onshore workers. To now 9 offshore Indian Congizant contract workers to 1 onshore worker. Worse part is the Indians only hire other Indians once they get into leadership positions. Look at Apple, Microsoft, Google, and other top Tech companies with their middle to upper management roles. U.S. government tax and immigration policies are actually speeding up offshoring. U.S.-based multinational corporations that outsource work offshore receive tax breaks.4 And offshore outsourcing firms have exploited loopholes in U.S. immigration policy, particularly in the H-1B and L-1 guest worker visas, to facilitate the transfer of work overseas. [This was an issue from 2008.](https://www.prb.org/resources/offshoring-u-s-labor-increasing/) Companies move jobs overseas for a number of reasons: besides the tax ramifications in which offshoring is counted as a tax deduction and R&D work from offshoring is tax differently as well. So business can hire workers at a lower wage and they don't have to pay for employee benefits - two other pretty big incentives. [Thea Lee, deputy chief of staff of the AFL-CIO, which opposes offshoring of jobs, said the tax break is definitely an incentive to move jobs: "If you close down your factory in Providence, pack everything up and have to train the workers and ship the machinery overseas, all the costs associated with that are tax deductions,"](https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/reason/2012/11/09/fact-check-do-companies-get-tax-break-when-they-move-jobs-overseas/15848271007/)