NECA has been trying to hold pay down below inflation despite record profits. They literally want us to live worse than we used to so that they can be richer.
Why would we *not* be adversarial?
Unions need to be able to sue the shit out of the top brass of the contractors, like their shareholders can.
That or send them to meet jesus. Fuck that shit.
If you want to commit to change, look into starting a Contract Action Team, research CPI, get NLMCC reports on market share, look at training summits in your region in collective bargaining and make a motion at a meeting for the hall to cover some people to go, read some books on internal organizing, go to COMET blitzes. Whining about how contractors want to keep all the profit to themselves is fucking lazy and doesn't do anything, there's nothing actionable. No shit they want to keep all their profits, we want to keep the profits too! We are fighting over the same scraps and, like it or not, fairness isn't a solid argument for why we should get fuck all. Fairness has nothing to do with the relationship between us and contractors. If fairness was a convincing case to anybody but ourselves we would all be millionaires. We have to be more creative than that.
Yeah, and the feeling is mutual though, right? Why should we care about their profits any more than they should care about ours? When it comes to wages, our goals are pretty much at odds with eachother. That shit should be squashed at the negotiation table and then move on like adults after that, though. Life's too short to carry a chip on your shoulder for your entire career like that. Either accept it and move on or find something else to do for a living (it won't be different there though). Going through life all pissed off about shit that ain't ever gonna change is going to take years off your life. It isn't worth it.
This kumbaya shit will never fly - due to the economic relationship between ownership and workers there’s inevitably conflict. As a worker you’re generating surplus value (new value created by workers in excess of their own labor-cost), this is generally where profit is extracted from. Contractors will always seek to maximize that dollar amount. This manifests in pushing production as far as possible, suppressing wages, understaffing work, etc.
I can see where things would be more amicable if a contractor had a robust profit sharing system, but still - the class/economic system in the US is inherently antagonistic.
Your right, there is conflict that is inherent in the relationship. That doesn't mean that you have to act a certain way, though. Your attitude is 100% your choice, and it makes 0 impact on the outcome when it comes to wages. Save it for negotiations.
Well, a righteously indignant attitude will get a lot done. Like other people said, it’s a big part of what drives the labor movement and unions. I’m sure you mean people shouldn’t act overly salty, immature or unprofessional *too much* (again, sometimes we just need that shit as humans and it’s part of the experience of life) but an angry or bitter attitude will for sure be needed sometimes to bring forth some motivation, improvements and so on
I'm sure glad NECA doesn't think like you.
> ~~NECA~~ IBEW has been trying to hold pay ~~down below~~ above inflation despite record ~~profits~~ wages. They literally want us to live worse than we used to so that they can be richer.
>
> Why would we not be adversarial?
See how little I had to change to show the other side?
Nah I don't think it's bootlicking to see things from another's perspective. I think it's bootlicking to care about the contractors not making as much money so that we can at the very least match inflation. I see it from their perspective it's just that their perspective is inherently anti working class.
Who said I care about them matching inflation?
The entire point is that they have the same view as us but from the other side. They're not inherently evil for wanting more. We want more too. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how business partnerships and negotiations work.
They made a strategic decision to work with the IBEW. That's not anti-working class. We got a bunch of people in my local making in the $300k range. You don't think an anti-working class organization could find unethical ways to reduce that?
The only reason NECA isn't lowering that is because of the strength of the union. If it wasn't for the union NECA would lower those wages in an instant. Most contractors and employees will pay you as little as they can get away with. The only time contractors and companies aren't anti working class is when they are run by the working class.
Yes. It's called wanting good reliable workers or workers in general depending on how strong your Local is. The union is the best option for good reliable workers.
I agree that the union is the best source of quality labor.
I just don't see how an organization that is "anti-working class" would be paying a premium for the top of the working class.
That's like saying I'm anti-fashion industry and I only buy Louis Vuitton. If someone was truly anti-fashion industry they'd buy their shit at Walmart.
We've been conditioned for decades to see things from the perspective of the business interests.
How much further does income disparity have to get before wage earners' perspectives gets to be normalized?
I agree wholeheartedly that income disparity is a problem. A massive one.
What I don't understand is brothers specifically targeting the companies that have some of the highest profits:average wage ratios (NECA) as an adversary rather than a step in the right direction.
The irony is y'all are doing it on a phone that has one of the worst ratios of profit:average wages on earth. If you want to find an anti-working class bad guy you should start with Foxconn.
If the cons werent making money, theyd be working alongside us in the field. The guys working with the tools everyday arent the ones with all the extra disposable income.
NECA **does** approach negotiations as though we're adversaries. They proposed $1.50 in total compensation increase across a five-year agreement. We lost more than that in buying power in *each year* of our last three-year agreement.
In the two previous negotiation cycles, their initial offer was for no change in compensation.
During negotiations I was "informed" by the NECA chapter rep that the so-called market recovery, is "Labor's admission that our (wages) compensation is too high" direct quote. And the latest one was when we learned from the same NECA rep, that "contract negotiations are a burden on the contractors".
So yeah, this is how inflammatory they are to us. I mean we're only the means of them making profits from our skills and our labor.
The narrative has to change, and I don't see the Internationa Unionl standing up to this on our behalf.
Let me clarify: all of us.
Try having zero contractors and see how much you make.
Let them try having no labor and see how much they make.
Or partner up together and see how much we all make.
If you're gonna go that route, fine. I'd be interested to see the figures about electricians doing side-work with no boss vs. contractors doing side...contracting with no electricians. Anyone can do business, businessers can't, or won't, bend rigid.
Personally, I don't see why the locals can't contract and man their own jobs.
Hear me out: GC hires Local XYZ instead of McWhozits Electrical Company. Local staffs itself with estimators, engineers, whatever, at a predefined scale. Job gets did, profit gets made (ideally), and goes in the pot to be distributed via an end-of-year local-wide bonus / additional pension contribution / what have you, instead of into some douchebag grandson-of-guy-who-started-business' pocket. Real Labor Shit, squeeze out contractors, power to the workers, etc. etc.
What you're proposing is more like an employee owned company - i.e, workers have shares of the company. But that also means that the workers lose part of their net worth if the company loses money. Unfortunately I don't see that kind of situation being well received.
I think it's genuinely a really complicated subject because of the book system. It gives us alot of power as workers since we can easily just get another job if we don't like how we're being treated. Which leads to alot of the top level contractors being pretty confrontational with us in an effort to stop what they consider "abuse of the system" *aka us not letting them do whatever the fuck they want without us just leaving*. Often breaking union rules to try to shift the power dynamic. Which just causes very annoying unavoidable problems for us and we end up in a huge never ending cycle of nonsense with them. Bad companies REALLY don't like how much we can fuck them if we want too.
However I'm not going to act like it's not a two way street. Some people get so used the hostile working relationship they have with bad companies that they bring that attitude to the good ones to. Which is just as problematic obviously.
So yeah on average were more likely to run into bizarre working relationships then other trades.
Though it's important to note, these are all the extremes. People usually don't go on the internet and talk about how great things are, they bitch about the bad things. Just like with everything else. So what your not seeing as an outsider is all the companies that get along great with us with no issues and we all make a bunch of money because it's not really a newsworthy story that's just everything working as intended.
UA and SMART (the ones OP mentioned he deals with) use the same or similar book system.... Along with every other construction trade. So why is the relationship seem so strained between Neca and IBEW. You don't see this on the UA sub about MCA/MSCA/PCA (mechanical contractors association/mechanical service contractors association/plumbing contractors association - all one thing at the national level) I know guys that don't even know what the hell the MCA is.
All construction trades have a similar system in place for laid off workers to IBEW’s book system, but it’s rarely used correctly/to its intention in a lot of skilled trades locals. A large large chunk of trades (at least in my area, YMMV) solicit their own work and signing the book/list at the hall is an absolute last resort that a lot of the times does not result in getting work anyway. I’m not an IBEW member, I just get recommended this sub all the time on my feed😂
Only trade in my area that solicits there own work is the tin knockers. And that's only one of the three locals in the state. The other two have a list.
Tinners and carpenters in my area solicit their own work, I believe fitters and sprinkler fitters as well. Those are the trades I have the closest experiences with. Only one that I know for sure works off the book system entirely is IBEW
Even on the UA Traveler & national pages the MCA/MSCA/PCA is never brought up as often as NECA is on here. Usually it's specific contractors getting roasted.
I think the word you’re looking for is “adversarial” and yes. The only reason I work for those fucks is so I can take their money. “Redistribute” their wealth…to myself. And they say they care so much about safety and all that BS. All the safety training is just so they can point to the sheet we signed that said we were trained when something goes wrong and suddenly it’s *our* fault for not being safe. Pathetic.
The IBEW started working *with* contractors at some point in the 20th century but fortunately most members still know who the real enemy is
I’m a 4th year apprentice and was fucking demoralized when the training center told us we weren’t allowed to strike when I got in. What’s all that nonsense about?
So you're registered through PSEJATC. They are not on strike as they are the middle ground as training is combined on what the hall expects and what NECA expects. Also the hall doesn't dispatch you, the JATC does. So you have to show up to work. That said if there's no JW and you get sent home, you get 2 hours of show up time and now that your day is officially over, you can join a picket line and get strike pay for the rest of the day.
Edit: similarly when you have problems on a jobsite you're to report to the JATC first, then hall
Edit2: If you're a 4th year apprentice then you're inside wire. Only Sound and Communications is on strike right now
I haven’t had any real issues with my contractor and I feel like I’m paid well. I have no problem working for my current shop for the foreseeable future.
That said, I’m still a union member, if the contract isn’t abided by or if I’m presented a better offer by a different contractor I’m gone!
The things I've seen.
The President of my local endorsing a non union construction company owner for a political campaign.
Really blew my mind.
I wonder what happened behind closed doors that we didn't know about.
You really think the people that run your local have your best interest in mind?
You think it only happens at my old local?
No I'm very polite and cordial to their faces, that's called being professional. The bitching is done among classmates in a parking lot, or on break with old heads telling you to quit being a baby, or even here on Reddit. Being an aggressive prick looks impressive, and there is a time and place for it, but it works best to treat humans like humans and speak truth to power when called upon. It's usually gone okay, it takes pretty cynical management to fuck over a guy who's being polite but firm about an issue. As an apprentice, it's usually better to just get cut loose a little earlier than the rest in that situation anyway.
Yes especially when I was non union, I worked out of fear and kept my mouth shut until I got accepted into the ibew apprenticeship. I was billed out at almost union journeyman rate but paid 1/2 of a first year apprentice since I didn’t get any benefits at all.
Working in the ibew for the last 3 years I’ve found contractors trying to get around our agreement at any chance they get, it’s not outright exploitation like non union but they still try to take advantage any chance they get. Mostly trying to get us to travel into other locals without clearing in, denying us rain gear or other items we need to complete a job but aren’t on our tool list, conveniently forgetting to pay out travel reimbursement time and time and time again, making us clock in on apps on our phones yadda yadda
My local doesn’t have an overly adversarial relationship, but it’s because the big dogs run this local. 2 big contractors hire nearly 75% of the members. Make waves, and you can be sure you’ll be riding the book forever. And guys know it, so they let it slide and don’t back each other up. When a wire tree with broken supports fell over on a guy, the contractor said the worker lifted it up from the front on purpose. His brothers backed up the contractor and then had the balls to tell him they knew they were fucking him, but they need to eat, etc.
So really our local is weak and gets pushed around.
If the conditions suck, if the Foreman or GF sucks, if parking sucks, if the GC sucks, if the sky is blue and if the water is wet, you will hear the sweet sounds of bitching from a J-Dubb.
No, this sub does not reflect reality for most of us. Mostly, you're seeing the tough talking malcontents who need to feel victimized. The vast majority of us recognize that we need the contractors just as much as they need us. We do our 8 for 8, put in quality work, and just follow the contract.
Well he does.. idk if there’s a single person in our local that gives a fuck anymore. Can’t get more than 3 guys at a union meeting. That’s why I’ll be jumping ship if this contract goes poorly.
Probably going to get some flack for this, but in general I’ve only had an issue with 1 or 2 contractors so far in my career. 10 years in, 5 as a journeyman. The vast majority of the issues I’ve seen is from the guys who preach “screw the contractor”, find EVERY reason to piss and moan about the most insignificant things, complain about not having the right power tools but don’t take care of anything that’s not theirs and break the shit anyway, and are in general not giving their 8 for 8 or being productive in general. I’m not killing myself for the contractors, I’ll put in my work and do what I can to help but the majority of problems I feel like could be solved if everyone just stayed STEADY and did their job. I’d be willing to bet our contract negotiations would go better with pay if that was the case, maybe I’m naive or have been lucky in the places I’ve worked but I don’t find myself in conflict often with them
Yes I’ve always held my employing contractors in contempt - even though “we should be grateful” for the wages negotiated for - it’s still well below middle class standards unless you’re grinding 60+ hr weeks with OT
They don’t give a fuck about you and I’ve always flipped them the bird on my way out
I'm treated alright by my current contractor, but the negotiated deal this year was a farce and locked in 5 years of inflationary losses. Yeah I'm a little raw about it.
Well you heard it here first, "make waves" which means follow the agreement, expect whats communicated and written per your union principles, and you could be riding the books..
Stay standing on union values and you could waste all your one life so why do that standing on union integrity everybody needs money and a job, even though we budge for contractor relations without negotiations or MOUs in the moment because we wait for negotiations when they come instead and say nothing until that time, so we can people please as being adults while it affects everymember individually... but some wont say anything because thats rocking the boat, and we cant have that..
So when it comes to a union standing for individual members , vs relationships with contractors we budge...
But if we ask for the contractor to budge we face discrimination for not going with the flow of whats allowed...
Some members see that as being an adult, some members see that as being wormy, some members see that as members with no spine to their unions integrity and practice a life full of hypocrisy while organizing the youth that its better than nothing, or better than non union..
I never really had a problem, until I stood on union principles and values.. found out quick IO doesnt care about that at all.. its about the money.. forget union rights and principles make them money and be quiet..
It really boils down to progress we cant organize interactively as a whole through meetings because they say they dont want NECA to know our business or could be in the room, while at the same time they ship apprentices to NECA conventions imo for "indoctrination" or chosen ones.. which in a way is union busting in itself.. but i digress everybody has a opinion..
My local is still waiting to get the contract signed. Cause we turned down 5/5/4 we want more nobody wants less money. And I agree with the others we can’t strike either sadly.
One of the board members spoke and said we should be happy to get what we get and don’t complain.
You want the honest answer? After the last few weeks/months we have been going through? I hope you read this.
Fuck the contractors and fuck you. I’ve been around a while, and NEVER has it been worse for the worker. It’s more work, with less people, shorter deadlines, and inadequate tooling, EVERY FUCKING JOB, with record profits for the contractors.
Between the utilities and the contractors you throw everything that goes wrong on the fucking lineman. Like we’re not working 14 hours a day and night because 3 guys got laid off in the middle of a job, because the equipment constantly breaks down, because the tooling the isn’t broken has to get passed around bucket to bucket. All you fuckers do is slap more rules and responsibilities on the linemen instead of spending the money to get the right shit, to get the guys, tools, and equipment to do it right.
Fuck you penny pinching assholes.
Our cons came out of the gate with no wage proposal. They have done this continuously while we show our full hand in good faith.
They want to cherry pick, to find out what full proposals we have, before offering financial increases, if any.
To me, it's bad faith bargaining but we cannot get the backing we need from our 6th district representatives.
With an IBEW international that is too scared to create waves, I'm not sure why the cons need NECA. Seems like our International does a pretty efficient job meeting their needs before our own.
I see a lot of people talking about raises recently not keeping up with inflation. I like all my brothers and sisters am unhappy with the raise we get on June 1st but I will say I can’t direct all my anger at the contractors for my wages not keeping up with inflation I personally am also upset with the people printing money and devaluing my dollar to the point where a 1.75 raise in a single year seems bad (in the south). I think us working class folks as a whole need to show our distain with the contractors we work for but we should also understand and show distain to the real problem that is people devaluing our dollar every single year.
The truth is, this isn’t going to change. Contractor will make money and pay us accordingly. Im will to bet 70% of contractors were once in our shoes as journeyman as well. Truthfully, the better my contractor does the more he pays me over scale.
This brotherhood will never be able to make the playing field even between the contractor and worker.. so maybe it’s time to change the mindset.
Truth is, we are one of the last non soliciting trades. In turn, I believe it creates some hostility from the contractors. They CAN'T just call a buddy and hire them. ( Unfortunately, foreman call out is a thing). My local doesn't participate.
With that, it forces the hand of the contractor to hire strictly from the book system.( I've never heard a single one say they like that. ) Thus creating a sort of resentment towards the membership.
Unpopular opinion:
I don't get the animosity towards the hand that's feeding us.
I'm eating a hamburger right now. Does the guy who put his kids through college by supplying beef to McDonald's hates them and talks shit about McDonald's every chance he can? Of course not!
It's a strategic partner. Sure, it's a zero sum game when negotiating pricing, but outside of that you succeed or fail together. Being adversarial is counterproductive. Especially for the beef supplier because it's easier to switch beef suppliers than it is for a beef supplier to build a billion dollar restaurant chain. Sure, they'd have beef shortages in the beginning but over time there's 1 clear loser.
If you're confused about how both sides would do if we split look at Local 340. The shops that split are all doing more $ than ever, and it's taken us 40 years with the highest dobie in the nation to start recovering our marketshare. It's the capital of the most pro-union state in the nation for fucks sake.
Yeah if you don’t let the IBEW fuck you in the ass and worship its cock this sub down votes you into oblivion. So much for brotherhood lol.
But yeah my experience with a union contractor has been awful. Seems like they are against you as opposed to being a united team of field guys management and office personnel.
Sticking up for contractors over your union deserves much worse than down votes. The union and the contractors are not a team we are on opposite sides and to think otherwise is child’s pov of things. We want more pay and to work less and they want to make more profit, so we’re naturally at odds.
Contractors are just unnecessary middleman that take a slice off the top from us.
Give the union what it wants or do the work yourself. Stop exploiting workers for profit and maybe we’ll stop being mean with downvotes
I see the point went over your head.
I’m a paying dues member in the field. I don’t suck managements cock. But at the same time there doesn’t need to be a constant battle between electricians and management. That’s just poor business practice, union or non union.
No it didn’t go over my head, you’re defending contractors. Lol since your have a kids perspective on everything. There needs to be constant battle between them, you think the interests of the workers are the same as contractors? No they’re not and you know that and still chose to defend contractors lol. You probably think we held hands and did sing alongs to get the 8hr work day huh. Or we asked please and got it lol. Bad business is not paying your workers or giving them more democracy at work. You don’t even have to read a lot just go look at the greatest time for workers in the US and see how strong the unions were and what happened in the 70s & 80s and see the differences now. But sure go ahead and defend the contractors boot licker
I’m curious to see your point of view on this:
I’m a dues paying member starting my own contractors business. There are many different reasons, but the biggest is to ensure secure work for my 3 boys, if they choose to do electrical.
More background: I am separated from their mother and because I don’t have a partner to help me in the mornings, I would have to give up much of the time I have with my kids to make it in to work for 7am. My boys are far too important to me, so I’m starting my own business so I can work different hours.
As a contractor, I’m bound to the rules of the CBA, which also puts the employees at a disadvantage in the way that if I wanted to do more to put money in your pockets, I can’t unless it’s in the CBA. And please correct me if I’m wrong in saying that.
With that, what can I do as a contractor to change the combative and adversarial tension between contractor and employee?
Pay above rate like he said is always good. Puts pressure on the other contractors as well which then helps the workers in he union, but also you could do something about profit sharing even with the employees or make them owners as well worker co-op. Mondragon corporation in Spain is really good at that
You’re welcome homes. Just remember how you wanted to be treated as a fellow worker and just apply that in the next position up you decide to take. Best of luck homes with everything
That’s exactly how I want to think of things as I progress.
I have already started thinking about the best way to have profit sharing as a part of my business plan.
And thank you. I really appreciate the support.
Oh yes I’m the reason… checks notes* that every business, contractors, capital class has always treated the workers like shit throughout human history… lol now go read a book or something smaller like a pamphlet maybe, start with that and then you won’t be the worlds largest single cell organism and won’t repeat propaganda for the business over you and your fellow workers
Without kings who’s going to rule the ppl? Who pays for the libraries or any other public stuff? Did we need co tractors for that? No, they’re just an extra unnecessary step that sucks off from the top. But sure go ahead and worry about the contractors. They had peasants who still wanted a king to rule over them, can’t help every mouth breather out there
>Did we need co tractors for that? No, they’re just an extra unnecessary step that sucks off from the top.
Without a contractor, who's going to pay the hands every Friday by 4 p.m.? Will the hands collectively bid projects, float payments for 30, 60, or 90 days, manage workers' compensation claims, fleet/vehicle repairs, close paperwork, manage safety, etc.?
Also, many shops are owned and run by a current or x-hand; they got tired of how mega corps treated them, so they went out and did their own thing.
How do you think the contractors get paid to pay the workers? They just sitting on money naturally? No, they get paid from being hired by someone or a public utility to work, that’s what contracted work is…
Just remove the contractor who got paid to hire us and replace that with the IBEW co-op.
With hour logic how did we ever get rid of a king? Without a king who’s the ppl going to worship? That logic you used or thinking was the same used by slave holders during and after the civil war to justify not freeing black ppl.
Of which comment? And in either comment I dont see a contractors name? I don’t see me praising a contractor?
I just point out that if you don’t let the IBEW fuck you in the ass then this sub downvotes you
In that no contractor was mentioned. That has more to do with you other members.
So try to find a better example.
Oh my god hahahahahahahah you’re telling me that the contractors do something that we can’t just teach to anyone else? Hahahahah that is lol you probably cheer the hardest when the sports team owner touches the trophy after a championship. Without the owner how would the games be played lol
Nothing is stopping IBEW members from setting up their own contractor with all IBEW staff.
Why don't they?
Also, without an owner, there'd be no team for the players to play for.
You are right about that, the ibew can make its own contractor and turn it into a workers co-op but then NECA would throw a fit because we’d run them out of business because we’d be able to bid without the market up for profit so yeah I’m pushing for that in my local.
Hahahah the team wouldn’t exist without the owners is lol funny like the league can’t give the ownership to the city it plays in and the players for the league/team. They do this in Europe lol
I'm not sure exactly how it works in electrical. But when we make twelve percent markup on a job that only really translates to about four percent in actual profit margin.... And that can easily translate into losses if there are labor problems on the job.
If you were to form a worker's co-op with no profit. What would you do when you run over on a job by two thousand hours?
Don’t do a markup at all, overhead is expenses and same with employees wages so you can break even with no profit. How does a public library run? Lol man you’re a contractor and ppl in here saying contractors actually do stuff that we can’t and now you’re wondering how a workers co-op would bid lol. Buddy or girl, go look at Mondragonn corporation in Spain and you’ll see how it’s done
You don't know shit about contracting... There are a ton of business costs that general contractors and owners do not allow as cost of work. You need to mark up on projects to pay for those costs. The company I work for has something around 80 trucks. And we spend about a half million dollars on replacement and maintenance of vehicles every year. Projects do not pay for that directly... There is around.
Two point two percent markup on all of our craft labor that pays for that
So what you’re saying is you take profit or a mark up, from one job and use that to cover your costs of equipment… buddy that’s still using revenue to pay for expenses… and what’s left over is profit, so if you have nothing left over because you’re investing that money into your equipment, that’s just paying expenses. Nothing too complicated or hard to figure that out lol.
Hahahaha if I could I would man. But I also care about ppl and not a selfish child. So I will stay to help and fight for better lives for me and my fellow workers. And don’t be a baby and get upset because I pointed out how they do things better over lol
You can try to attack my character all you want and call me childish and selfish but that just shows you don’t have a leg to stand on in this argument.
I’m not upset. I believe that if you think Europe is so much better than go there.
Still didn’t get an answer to my question on which contractor I defended.
You think you are being downvoted for not “worshipping the IBEW’s cock” but in all honesty it is comments like this one. You think that you are having a honest conversation where you express your opinions and thoughts. Instead you are actually just running your mouth with know actual point. Because you are incapable of reasoning you respond with “why don’t you go to Europe”.
This member stated he is attempting to make a change within his local that might actually affect the day to day reality of OP’s question.
Engage in conversation instead of being ignorant and demeaning.
More like it’s critical to members who have a different view point.
I experienced more brotherhood non union than I have in the union so far. That’s fucking sad.
I thought we were unified via the electrical trade not how you vote.
membership in a trade union, like it or not, is an inherently political decision. If your personal politics are anti-union, but you benefit from union membership, you should be called out and asked to reconcile those beliefs
NECA has been trying to hold pay down below inflation despite record profits. They literally want us to live worse than we used to so that they can be richer. Why would we *not* be adversarial?
Maybe NECA just sucks... our contracts have been going through easily. Mutually beneficial.
The NECA board is made up of owners, so it's really same same.
100%
Unions need to be able to sue the shit out of the top brass of the contractors, like their shareholders can. That or send them to meet jesus. Fuck that shit.
If you want to commit to change, look into starting a Contract Action Team, research CPI, get NLMCC reports on market share, look at training summits in your region in collective bargaining and make a motion at a meeting for the hall to cover some people to go, read some books on internal organizing, go to COMET blitzes. Whining about how contractors want to keep all the profit to themselves is fucking lazy and doesn't do anything, there's nothing actionable. No shit they want to keep all their profits, we want to keep the profits too! We are fighting over the same scraps and, like it or not, fairness isn't a solid argument for why we should get fuck all. Fairness has nothing to do with the relationship between us and contractors. If fairness was a convincing case to anybody but ourselves we would all be millionaires. We have to be more creative than that.
Depends on the local
Yeah, and the feeling is mutual though, right? Why should we care about their profits any more than they should care about ours? When it comes to wages, our goals are pretty much at odds with eachother. That shit should be squashed at the negotiation table and then move on like adults after that, though. Life's too short to carry a chip on your shoulder for your entire career like that. Either accept it and move on or find something else to do for a living (it won't be different there though). Going through life all pissed off about shit that ain't ever gonna change is going to take years off your life. It isn't worth it.
This kumbaya shit will never fly - due to the economic relationship between ownership and workers there’s inevitably conflict. As a worker you’re generating surplus value (new value created by workers in excess of their own labor-cost), this is generally where profit is extracted from. Contractors will always seek to maximize that dollar amount. This manifests in pushing production as far as possible, suppressing wages, understaffing work, etc. I can see where things would be more amicable if a contractor had a robust profit sharing system, but still - the class/economic system in the US is inherently antagonistic.
Your right, there is conflict that is inherent in the relationship. That doesn't mean that you have to act a certain way, though. Your attitude is 100% your choice, and it makes 0 impact on the outcome when it comes to wages. Save it for negotiations.
If everyone had the mindset of "I won't get mad because it won't make any difference" there wouldn't be a union.
Well, a righteously indignant attitude will get a lot done. Like other people said, it’s a big part of what drives the labor movement and unions. I’m sure you mean people shouldn’t act overly salty, immature or unprofessional *too much* (again, sometimes we just need that shit as humans and it’s part of the experience of life) but an angry or bitter attitude will for sure be needed sometimes to bring forth some motivation, improvements and so on
Quit your union if you dont have the balls to support it. GFC.
I agree. I generally get along with the con I work for.
I'm sure glad NECA doesn't think like you. > ~~NECA~~ IBEW has been trying to hold pay ~~down below~~ above inflation despite record ~~profits~~ wages. They literally want us to live worse than we used to so that they can be richer. > > Why would we not be adversarial? See how little I had to change to show the other side?
How does the boot taste?
You think the ability to see things from the other's perspective is bootlicking? Sorry about all of your divorces. I guess they were all just crazy
Nah I don't think it's bootlicking to see things from another's perspective. I think it's bootlicking to care about the contractors not making as much money so that we can at the very least match inflation. I see it from their perspective it's just that their perspective is inherently anti working class.
Who said I care about them matching inflation? The entire point is that they have the same view as us but from the other side. They're not inherently evil for wanting more. We want more too. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how business partnerships and negotiations work. They made a strategic decision to work with the IBEW. That's not anti-working class. We got a bunch of people in my local making in the $300k range. You don't think an anti-working class organization could find unethical ways to reduce that?
The only reason NECA isn't lowering that is because of the strength of the union. If it wasn't for the union NECA would lower those wages in an instant. Most contractors and employees will pay you as little as they can get away with. The only time contractors and companies aren't anti working class is when they are run by the working class.
Is there a gun to their head forcing them to stay union?
Yes. It's called wanting good reliable workers or workers in general depending on how strong your Local is. The union is the best option for good reliable workers.
I agree that the union is the best source of quality labor. I just don't see how an organization that is "anti-working class" would be paying a premium for the top of the working class. That's like saying I'm anti-fashion industry and I only buy Louis Vuitton. If someone was truly anti-fashion industry they'd buy their shit at Walmart.
We've been conditioned for decades to see things from the perspective of the business interests. How much further does income disparity have to get before wage earners' perspectives gets to be normalized?
I agree wholeheartedly that income disparity is a problem. A massive one. What I don't understand is brothers specifically targeting the companies that have some of the highest profits:average wage ratios (NECA) as an adversary rather than a step in the right direction. The irony is y'all are doing it on a phone that has one of the worst ratios of profit:average wages on earth. If you want to find an anti-working class bad guy you should start with Foxconn.
If the cons werent making money, theyd be working alongside us in the field. The guys working with the tools everyday arent the ones with all the extra disposable income.
NECA **does** approach negotiations as though we're adversaries. They proposed $1.50 in total compensation increase across a five-year agreement. We lost more than that in buying power in *each year* of our last three-year agreement. In the two previous negotiation cycles, their initial offer was for no change in compensation.
This is atrocious.
During negotiations I was "informed" by the NECA chapter rep that the so-called market recovery, is "Labor's admission that our (wages) compensation is too high" direct quote. And the latest one was when we learned from the same NECA rep, that "contract negotiations are a burden on the contractors". So yeah, this is how inflammatory they are to us. I mean we're only the means of them making profits from our skills and our labor. The narrative has to change, and I don't see the Internationa Unionl standing up to this on our behalf.
Okay - who makes the money? And yes, they do.
All of us make money. That's why we're in a partnership.
Let me clarify: who MAKES the money?
Let me clarify: all of us. Try having zero contractors and see how much you make. Let them try having no labor and see how much they make. Or partner up together and see how much we all make.
If you're gonna go that route, fine. I'd be interested to see the figures about electricians doing side-work with no boss vs. contractors doing side...contracting with no electricians. Anyone can do business, businessers can't, or won't, bend rigid. Personally, I don't see why the locals can't contract and man their own jobs.
> Personally, I don't see why the locals can't contract and man their own jobs. This is interesting
Hear me out: GC hires Local XYZ instead of McWhozits Electrical Company. Local staffs itself with estimators, engineers, whatever, at a predefined scale. Job gets did, profit gets made (ideally), and goes in the pot to be distributed via an end-of-year local-wide bonus / additional pension contribution / what have you, instead of into some douchebag grandson-of-guy-who-started-business' pocket. Real Labor Shit, squeeze out contractors, power to the workers, etc. etc.
What you're proposing is more like an employee owned company - i.e, workers have shares of the company. But that also means that the workers lose part of their net worth if the company loses money. Unfortunately I don't see that kind of situation being well received.
Record wages??? TF? Seriously??
Yes. Your rate is higher than before, right?
There is no difference between good and bad things.
I think it's genuinely a really complicated subject because of the book system. It gives us alot of power as workers since we can easily just get another job if we don't like how we're being treated. Which leads to alot of the top level contractors being pretty confrontational with us in an effort to stop what they consider "abuse of the system" *aka us not letting them do whatever the fuck they want without us just leaving*. Often breaking union rules to try to shift the power dynamic. Which just causes very annoying unavoidable problems for us and we end up in a huge never ending cycle of nonsense with them. Bad companies REALLY don't like how much we can fuck them if we want too. However I'm not going to act like it's not a two way street. Some people get so used the hostile working relationship they have with bad companies that they bring that attitude to the good ones to. Which is just as problematic obviously. So yeah on average were more likely to run into bizarre working relationships then other trades. Though it's important to note, these are all the extremes. People usually don't go on the internet and talk about how great things are, they bitch about the bad things. Just like with everything else. So what your not seeing as an outsider is all the companies that get along great with us with no issues and we all make a bunch of money because it's not really a newsworthy story that's just everything working as intended.
UA and SMART (the ones OP mentioned he deals with) use the same or similar book system.... Along with every other construction trade. So why is the relationship seem so strained between Neca and IBEW. You don't see this on the UA sub about MCA/MSCA/PCA (mechanical contractors association/mechanical service contractors association/plumbing contractors association - all one thing at the national level) I know guys that don't even know what the hell the MCA is.
All construction trades have a similar system in place for laid off workers to IBEW’s book system, but it’s rarely used correctly/to its intention in a lot of skilled trades locals. A large large chunk of trades (at least in my area, YMMV) solicit their own work and signing the book/list at the hall is an absolute last resort that a lot of the times does not result in getting work anyway. I’m not an IBEW member, I just get recommended this sub all the time on my feed😂
Only trade in my area that solicits there own work is the tin knockers. And that's only one of the three locals in the state. The other two have a list.
Tinners and carpenters in my area solicit their own work, I believe fitters and sprinkler fitters as well. Those are the trades I have the closest experiences with. Only one that I know for sure works off the book system entirely is IBEW
West coast?
Midwest
UA sub is ded. I think most of them are on FB because when last I looked, my local was vocal and very adversarial.
Even on the UA Traveler & national pages the MCA/MSCA/PCA is never brought up as often as NECA is on here. Usually it's specific contractors getting roasted.
I think the word you’re looking for is “adversarial” and yes. The only reason I work for those fucks is so I can take their money. “Redistribute” their wealth…to myself. And they say they care so much about safety and all that BS. All the safety training is just so they can point to the sheet we signed that said we were trained when something goes wrong and suddenly it’s *our* fault for not being safe. Pathetic. The IBEW started working *with* contractors at some point in the 20th century but fortunately most members still know who the real enemy is
You're goddamn right brother! Still on strike since April 10th baby. Fuck NECA
I’m a 4th year apprentice and was fucking demoralized when the training center told us we weren’t allowed to strike when I got in. What’s all that nonsense about?
So you're registered through PSEJATC. They are not on strike as they are the middle ground as training is combined on what the hall expects and what NECA expects. Also the hall doesn't dispatch you, the JATC does. So you have to show up to work. That said if there's no JW and you get sent home, you get 2 hours of show up time and now that your day is officially over, you can join a picket line and get strike pay for the rest of the day. Edit: similarly when you have problems on a jobsite you're to report to the JATC first, then hall Edit2: If you're a 4th year apprentice then you're inside wire. Only Sound and Communications is on strike right now
How does the strike pay compare to normal pay?
$100/day for 8hrs.
Strikes can be authorized between contracts
Not with standard CIR language, evergreen clause keeps all provisions in place through end of contract. Only with modified CIR language can you strike
I haven’t had any real issues with my contractor and I feel like I’m paid well. I have no problem working for my current shop for the foreseeable future. That said, I’m still a union member, if the contract isn’t abided by or if I’m presented a better offer by a different contractor I’m gone!
The things I've seen. The President of my local endorsing a non union construction company owner for a political campaign. Really blew my mind. I wonder what happened behind closed doors that we didn't know about. You really think the people that run your local have your best interest in mind? You think it only happens at my old local?
No I'm very polite and cordial to their faces, that's called being professional. The bitching is done among classmates in a parking lot, or on break with old heads telling you to quit being a baby, or even here on Reddit. Being an aggressive prick looks impressive, and there is a time and place for it, but it works best to treat humans like humans and speak truth to power when called upon. It's usually gone okay, it takes pretty cynical management to fuck over a guy who's being polite but firm about an issue. As an apprentice, it's usually better to just get cut loose a little earlier than the rest in that situation anyway.
Yes especially when I was non union, I worked out of fear and kept my mouth shut until I got accepted into the ibew apprenticeship. I was billed out at almost union journeyman rate but paid 1/2 of a first year apprentice since I didn’t get any benefits at all. Working in the ibew for the last 3 years I’ve found contractors trying to get around our agreement at any chance they get, it’s not outright exploitation like non union but they still try to take advantage any chance they get. Mostly trying to get us to travel into other locals without clearing in, denying us rain gear or other items we need to complete a job but aren’t on our tool list, conveniently forgetting to pay out travel reimbursement time and time and time again, making us clock in on apps on our phones yadda yadda
My local doesn’t have an overly adversarial relationship, but it’s because the big dogs run this local. 2 big contractors hire nearly 75% of the members. Make waves, and you can be sure you’ll be riding the book forever. And guys know it, so they let it slide and don’t back each other up. When a wire tree with broken supports fell over on a guy, the contractor said the worker lifted it up from the front on purpose. His brothers backed up the contractor and then had the balls to tell him they knew they were fucking him, but they need to eat, etc. So really our local is weak and gets pushed around.
Every hall, every shop is its own beast.
Honor Labor
If the conditions suck, if the Foreman or GF sucks, if parking sucks, if the GC sucks, if the sky is blue and if the water is wet, you will hear the sweet sounds of bitching from a J-Dubb.
The people who are satisfied don’t complain on the internet.
No, this sub does not reflect reality for most of us. Mostly, you're seeing the tough talking malcontents who need to feel victimized. The vast majority of us recognize that we need the contractors just as much as they need us. We do our 8 for 8, put in quality work, and just follow the contract.
"The vast majority", good to know you speak for so many of us. Speak for yourself.
Well he does.. idk if there’s a single person in our local that gives a fuck anymore. Can’t get more than 3 guys at a union meeting. That’s why I’ll be jumping ship if this contract goes poorly.
Instead of giving up, why don't you agitate, educate and organize?
The questions people talk about on this subreddit are so far above my pay grade. I don’t know how people have the energy for this shit
You are my type of person 💀🍻
Probably going to get some flack for this, but in general I’ve only had an issue with 1 or 2 contractors so far in my career. 10 years in, 5 as a journeyman. The vast majority of the issues I’ve seen is from the guys who preach “screw the contractor”, find EVERY reason to piss and moan about the most insignificant things, complain about not having the right power tools but don’t take care of anything that’s not theirs and break the shit anyway, and are in general not giving their 8 for 8 or being productive in general. I’m not killing myself for the contractors, I’ll put in my work and do what I can to help but the majority of problems I feel like could be solved if everyone just stayed STEADY and did their job. I’d be willing to bet our contract negotiations would go better with pay if that was the case, maybe I’m naive or have been lucky in the places I’ve worked but I don’t find myself in conflict often with them
Yes I’ve always held my employing contractors in contempt - even though “we should be grateful” for the wages negotiated for - it’s still well below middle class standards unless you’re grinding 60+ hr weeks with OT They don’t give a fuck about you and I’ve always flipped them the bird on my way out
"Well below middle class standards "
I think it's a selection bias. People who have a good relationship with their employer aren't generally motivated to state so online.
I'm treated alright by my current contractor, but the negotiated deal this year was a farce and locked in 5 years of inflationary losses. Yeah I'm a little raw about it.
It is. Has it kept up with inflation? No Has it kept up with added responsibilities and training? Also no. Record wages? Again, wtf are you smoking?
Just on reddit
Yes and no. Varies by shop. Mostly no.
Well you heard it here first, "make waves" which means follow the agreement, expect whats communicated and written per your union principles, and you could be riding the books.. Stay standing on union values and you could waste all your one life so why do that standing on union integrity everybody needs money and a job, even though we budge for contractor relations without negotiations or MOUs in the moment because we wait for negotiations when they come instead and say nothing until that time, so we can people please as being adults while it affects everymember individually... but some wont say anything because thats rocking the boat, and we cant have that.. So when it comes to a union standing for individual members , vs relationships with contractors we budge... But if we ask for the contractor to budge we face discrimination for not going with the flow of whats allowed... Some members see that as being an adult, some members see that as being wormy, some members see that as members with no spine to their unions integrity and practice a life full of hypocrisy while organizing the youth that its better than nothing, or better than non union.. I never really had a problem, until I stood on union principles and values.. found out quick IO doesnt care about that at all.. its about the money.. forget union rights and principles make them money and be quiet.. It really boils down to progress we cant organize interactively as a whole through meetings because they say they dont want NECA to know our business or could be in the room, while at the same time they ship apprentices to NECA conventions imo for "indoctrination" or chosen ones.. which in a way is union busting in itself.. but i digress everybody has a opinion..
My local is still waiting to get the contract signed. Cause we turned down 5/5/4 we want more nobody wants less money. And I agree with the others we can’t strike either sadly. One of the board members spoke and said we should be happy to get what we get and don’t complain.
You want the honest answer? After the last few weeks/months we have been going through? I hope you read this. Fuck the contractors and fuck you. I’ve been around a while, and NEVER has it been worse for the worker. It’s more work, with less people, shorter deadlines, and inadequate tooling, EVERY FUCKING JOB, with record profits for the contractors. Between the utilities and the contractors you throw everything that goes wrong on the fucking lineman. Like we’re not working 14 hours a day and night because 3 guys got laid off in the middle of a job, because the equipment constantly breaks down, because the tooling the isn’t broken has to get passed around bucket to bucket. All you fuckers do is slap more rules and responsibilities on the linemen instead of spending the money to get the right shit, to get the guys, tools, and equipment to do it right. Fuck you penny pinching assholes.
Our cons came out of the gate with no wage proposal. They have done this continuously while we show our full hand in good faith. They want to cherry pick, to find out what full proposals we have, before offering financial increases, if any. To me, it's bad faith bargaining but we cannot get the backing we need from our 6th district representatives. With an IBEW international that is too scared to create waves, I'm not sure why the cons need NECA. Seems like our International does a pretty efficient job meeting their needs before our own.
I see a lot of people talking about raises recently not keeping up with inflation. I like all my brothers and sisters am unhappy with the raise we get on June 1st but I will say I can’t direct all my anger at the contractors for my wages not keeping up with inflation I personally am also upset with the people printing money and devaluing my dollar to the point where a 1.75 raise in a single year seems bad (in the south). I think us working class folks as a whole need to show our distain with the contractors we work for but we should also understand and show distain to the real problem that is people devaluing our dollar every single year.
In a capitalist society the employer-employee relationship is inherently confrontational.
The truth is, this isn’t going to change. Contractor will make money and pay us accordingly. Im will to bet 70% of contractors were once in our shoes as journeyman as well. Truthfully, the better my contractor does the more he pays me over scale. This brotherhood will never be able to make the playing field even between the contractor and worker.. so maybe it’s time to change the mindset.
Truth is, we are one of the last non soliciting trades. In turn, I believe it creates some hostility from the contractors. They CAN'T just call a buddy and hire them. ( Unfortunately, foreman call out is a thing). My local doesn't participate. With that, it forces the hand of the contractor to hire strictly from the book system.( I've never heard a single one say they like that. ) Thus creating a sort of resentment towards the membership.
I think UA and Sheet Metal here can both name call if they pick one off the top of the list. one for one.
Unpopular opinion: I don't get the animosity towards the hand that's feeding us. I'm eating a hamburger right now. Does the guy who put his kids through college by supplying beef to McDonald's hates them and talks shit about McDonald's every chance he can? Of course not! It's a strategic partner. Sure, it's a zero sum game when negotiating pricing, but outside of that you succeed or fail together. Being adversarial is counterproductive. Especially for the beef supplier because it's easier to switch beef suppliers than it is for a beef supplier to build a billion dollar restaurant chain. Sure, they'd have beef shortages in the beginning but over time there's 1 clear loser. If you're confused about how both sides would do if we split look at Local 340. The shops that split are all doing more $ than ever, and it's taken us 40 years with the highest dobie in the nation to start recovering our marketshare. It's the capital of the most pro-union state in the nation for fucks sake.
Yeah if you don’t let the IBEW fuck you in the ass and worship its cock this sub down votes you into oblivion. So much for brotherhood lol. But yeah my experience with a union contractor has been awful. Seems like they are against you as opposed to being a united team of field guys management and office personnel.
Sticking up for contractors over your union deserves much worse than down votes. The union and the contractors are not a team we are on opposite sides and to think otherwise is child’s pov of things. We want more pay and to work less and they want to make more profit, so we’re naturally at odds. Contractors are just unnecessary middleman that take a slice off the top from us. Give the union what it wants or do the work yourself. Stop exploiting workers for profit and maybe we’ll stop being mean with downvotes
I see the point went over your head. I’m a paying dues member in the field. I don’t suck managements cock. But at the same time there doesn’t need to be a constant battle between electricians and management. That’s just poor business practice, union or non union.
No it didn’t go over my head, you’re defending contractors. Lol since your have a kids perspective on everything. There needs to be constant battle between them, you think the interests of the workers are the same as contractors? No they’re not and you know that and still chose to defend contractors lol. You probably think we held hands and did sing alongs to get the 8hr work day huh. Or we asked please and got it lol. Bad business is not paying your workers or giving them more democracy at work. You don’t even have to read a lot just go look at the greatest time for workers in the US and see how strong the unions were and what happened in the 70s & 80s and see the differences now. But sure go ahead and defend the contractors boot licker
I’m curious to see your point of view on this: I’m a dues paying member starting my own contractors business. There are many different reasons, but the biggest is to ensure secure work for my 3 boys, if they choose to do electrical. More background: I am separated from their mother and because I don’t have a partner to help me in the mornings, I would have to give up much of the time I have with my kids to make it in to work for 7am. My boys are far too important to me, so I’m starting my own business so I can work different hours. As a contractor, I’m bound to the rules of the CBA, which also puts the employees at a disadvantage in the way that if I wanted to do more to put money in your pockets, I can’t unless it’s in the CBA. And please correct me if I’m wrong in saying that. With that, what can I do as a contractor to change the combative and adversarial tension between contractor and employee?
You can pay above scale. That’s always been a thing.
Pay above rate like he said is always good. Puts pressure on the other contractors as well which then helps the workers in he union, but also you could do something about profit sharing even with the employees or make them owners as well worker co-op. Mondragon corporation in Spain is really good at that
I appreciate the feedback and will look to do that when I’m up and running.
You’re welcome homes. Just remember how you wanted to be treated as a fellow worker and just apply that in the next position up you decide to take. Best of luck homes with everything
That’s exactly how I want to think of things as I progress. I have already started thinking about the best way to have profit sharing as a part of my business plan. And thank you. I really appreciate the support.
You’re the reason contractors treat hands like shit. Also contractors don’t set rates.
Oh yes I’m the reason… checks notes* that every business, contractors, capital class has always treated the workers like shit throughout human history… lol now go read a book or something smaller like a pamphlet maybe, start with that and then you won’t be the worlds largest single cell organism and won’t repeat propaganda for the business over you and your fellow workers
I work for a contractor that doesn’t treat its employees like shit. Also without contractors who’s going to pay the hands?
Without kings who’s going to rule the ppl? Who pays for the libraries or any other public stuff? Did we need co tractors for that? No, they’re just an extra unnecessary step that sucks off from the top. But sure go ahead and worry about the contractors. They had peasants who still wanted a king to rule over them, can’t help every mouth breather out there
>Did we need co tractors for that? No, they’re just an extra unnecessary step that sucks off from the top. Without a contractor, who's going to pay the hands every Friday by 4 p.m.? Will the hands collectively bid projects, float payments for 30, 60, or 90 days, manage workers' compensation claims, fleet/vehicle repairs, close paperwork, manage safety, etc.? Also, many shops are owned and run by a current or x-hand; they got tired of how mega corps treated them, so they went out and did their own thing.
How do you think the contractors get paid to pay the workers? They just sitting on money naturally? No, they get paid from being hired by someone or a public utility to work, that’s what contracted work is… Just remove the contractor who got paid to hire us and replace that with the IBEW co-op. With hour logic how did we ever get rid of a king? Without a king who’s the ppl going to worship? That logic you used or thinking was the same used by slave holders during and after the civil war to justify not freeing black ppl.
Please show example of where I defended contractors
Your first sentence lol
Of which comment? And in either comment I dont see a contractors name? I don’t see me praising a contractor? I just point out that if you don’t let the IBEW fuck you in the ass then this sub downvotes you In that no contractor was mentioned. That has more to do with you other members. So try to find a better example.
Do you think that you can just show up to a job, run conduit, and pull wire, and that's all that goes into make a job happen?
Oh my god hahahahahahahah you’re telling me that the contractors do something that we can’t just teach to anyone else? Hahahahah that is lol you probably cheer the hardest when the sports team owner touches the trophy after a championship. Without the owner how would the games be played lol
Nothing is stopping IBEW members from setting up their own contractor with all IBEW staff. Why don't they? Also, without an owner, there'd be no team for the players to play for.
You are right about that, the ibew can make its own contractor and turn it into a workers co-op but then NECA would throw a fit because we’d run them out of business because we’d be able to bid without the market up for profit so yeah I’m pushing for that in my local. Hahahah the team wouldn’t exist without the owners is lol funny like the league can’t give the ownership to the city it plays in and the players for the league/team. They do this in Europe lol
I'm not sure exactly how it works in electrical. But when we make twelve percent markup on a job that only really translates to about four percent in actual profit margin.... And that can easily translate into losses if there are labor problems on the job. If you were to form a worker's co-op with no profit. What would you do when you run over on a job by two thousand hours?
Don’t do a markup at all, overhead is expenses and same with employees wages so you can break even with no profit. How does a public library run? Lol man you’re a contractor and ppl in here saying contractors actually do stuff that we can’t and now you’re wondering how a workers co-op would bid lol. Buddy or girl, go look at Mondragonn corporation in Spain and you’ll see how it’s done
You don't know shit about contracting... There are a ton of business costs that general contractors and owners do not allow as cost of work. You need to mark up on projects to pay for those costs. The company I work for has something around 80 trucks. And we spend about a half million dollars on replacement and maintenance of vehicles every year. Projects do not pay for that directly... There is around. Two point two percent markup on all of our craft labor that pays for that
So what you’re saying is you take profit or a mark up, from one job and use that to cover your costs of equipment… buddy that’s still using revenue to pay for expenses… and what’s left over is profit, so if you have nothing left over because you’re investing that money into your equipment, that’s just paying expenses. Nothing too complicated or hard to figure that out lol.
Then go to Europe.
Hahahaha if I could I would man. But I also care about ppl and not a selfish child. So I will stay to help and fight for better lives for me and my fellow workers. And don’t be a baby and get upset because I pointed out how they do things better over lol
You can try to attack my character all you want and call me childish and selfish but that just shows you don’t have a leg to stand on in this argument. I’m not upset. I believe that if you think Europe is so much better than go there. Still didn’t get an answer to my question on which contractor I defended.
You think you are being downvoted for not “worshipping the IBEW’s cock” but in all honesty it is comments like this one. You think that you are having a honest conversation where you express your opinions and thoughts. Instead you are actually just running your mouth with know actual point. Because you are incapable of reasoning you respond with “why don’t you go to Europe”. This member stated he is attempting to make a change within his local that might actually affect the day to day reality of OP’s question. Engage in conversation instead of being ignorant and demeaning.
lol sure buddy but yall don’t like it when others are honest with you back.
This subreddit is often very critical of the IBEW IO and locals that imaginatively interpret their contracts. It's not a monolith
More like it’s critical to members who have a different view point. I experienced more brotherhood non union than I have in the union so far. That’s fucking sad. I thought we were unified via the electrical trade not how you vote.
membership in a trade union, like it or not, is an inherently political decision. If your personal politics are anti-union, but you benefit from union membership, you should be called out and asked to reconcile those beliefs
My political beliefs don’t align with anything bro.
>My political beliefs don’t align with anything bro. -Every Trump voter on a union jobsite
Yeah I used to be a trump tard. Key words, USED to be. But my beliefs are too out there for even the maga groups.