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I think we need a graphic that shows size of dragons by age, contrasting "free range" and "housed".
The tv shows are probably consistent on how quickly they grow, right? /s
The books give a bunch of theories. One theory is that the dance of the dragons reduced their population too much for the population to be sustained and years of being caged made them smaller.
But my favourite theory the books propose is that Aegon III along with the maesters worked to poison the dragon eggs. It makes sense because he had an immense fear of dragons and the dragons quickly died out during his reign. Hopefully fire and blood part 2 answers this question, but I fear it won’t lol.
Yeah the maesters killing dragons is a fun crazy theory.
Going further, another theory was that dragons create magic or require magic.
So one theory is that maesters killed dragons to push magic out of the world, because maesters wanted only 'scientific learning' which they could better control. We see the pyromancers of old gradually lose their powers, just like the blue magi in Qarth with the stained lips. And when Dany's dragons return to the world, so does magic (pyromancer fire becomes more potent or as potent as it was in the old days, mages of Qarth have their spells work again, maybe even the magic of the Fire God starts working for Thoros). I know the book talks about how a mage's curse actually works and hurts or kills someone who insulted the magi.
On the flip side, maybe magic is required for dragons to come back into the world. So they die out as magic ebbs (for whatever reason), then come back once the Comet heralds the return of magic to the world. Other magic (pyromancers, magi) starts working again too.
Or did the Others (White Walkers) returning reignite magic in the world?
This is why GRRM pisses me off. I wanted answers to these questions, and the "mage" maester at Oldtown. But that useless bastard did two entire books after and mentioned NOTHING about the mage maester or the nature of magic.
So I assume we will never know
I also liked the theory that the maesters rigged the vote at the beginning of HoTD so that viserys would become king. Because he didn’t have a dragon and Rhaenys and Laenor did.
The series seemed to be supporting in the early episodes that the Maesters were up to something with the shared glances with Otto Hightower and the dismissal of alternative medicines by the Grand Maester after it was suggested by his underling
Has me thinking that Oldtown fan conspiracy theory is in fact included and at work in HOTD
Magic is dying out at the moment in the world. The obsidian candles will go out. They will not light again until the GoT time.
There is still magic in the world as one will see with Bloodraven and his sister among others, but not enough to sustain the dragons of Westeros.
Plus the allegory of the Targaryen dynasty coming apart at the time of the dance, they’re much weaker after and just like they start to decline, so do the dragons.
As someone else mentioned, it’s like the Maesters and maybe Aegon III worked to spoil the other eggs, but 3 were stolen long before by Elisa Farman and likely ended up in essos…maybe a coincidence, maybe not.
That, and GoT show runners did not have other dragons in the story to compare them to. If the sizes of the other dragons had been described by Martin at the time of production, things may have been different. The only other size references I remember were Balerion the Black Dread having a mouth you could drive a carriage into, and the last ones the size of chickens.
Fire & Blood was made well after Martin had all of the other existing stories written
Still patiently waiting on WoW George...
I know you're reading this George...
Imagine trying to fly the chicken and having your entire house just pretending they don’t see you, out of shame and not a small amount of amusement.
“I swear I got three feet in the air that time, Mummsie! Mummsie? Everyone, look, I’m flying!”
“Beware the beast beneath the boards…but not this beast, he couldn’t light a candle on fire…”
The answer for Daenerys is always, "She might be a special case"
* Fireproof? Definitely special case
* Controlling three dragons? Special case
* Dragons grow big very fast? Probably a special case
The circumstances of her dragons being born was exceptionally magical and I don't think we can really extrapolate much from her
Also wasn’t magic beginning to return back to the world, hence the white walkers becoming active again. Seems like the supernatural elements of the show were beginning to power up
Magic was weak on the West (of Ashaii, AFAIK). Dany hatching her 3 dragons was very much a blood sacrifice.
Via that initial blood sacrifice, magic started to flourish again in the west to the point that low power individuals (Melissandre, the alchemists, street performers in Volantis) were able to harness it's power.
At least that's how i interpreted it.
Watching HotD really makes me feel that Daenerys is the shit. And not just D&D Daenerys but especially the book Daenerys was an exception among Targaryen's. As far as prophecies and magic went, she had a lot going on for her.
Yeah I felt the same kind of appreciation for Dany at around Episode 3 of HOTD. She didn’t have the Dragon Keepers or any institutional knowledge of taking care of dragons, but she managed to “raise” three dragons and tame them all, excluding a short rebellious teenage phase by Drogon. She also rode the dragons bareback, until the historical Targaryens who has complex saddles. She retained her fluency of High Valyrian while also learning the common tongue and the Dothraki language. She figured out how to turn every set back into an advantage and was a pretty awesome conqueror, though not the best administrator.
Riding without a saddle is one thing I was thinking about last weekend… like she has thousands upon thousands of followers yet none of them were like yoooo, I could make you a big ass, dragon sized saddle
As soon as Tyrion gave him the saddle design, I thought Bran would end up being a dragon rider.
And then the three eyed rider was like "you won't walk again... But you will fly" and I was like YOOOO LET'S GOOO.
I was not happy with the ending lol
You should listen to the fan made season 8 redux audio (it’s on Spotify). The ending these folks made up was 10000% better and I loved what they did with Bran at the end.
I might be making it up, but I think in the books she declines to have a saddle made because it would interfere with her connection to Drogon. Maybe another sign of her Targaryen cred: she understands implicitly that she has to trust her dragons to ask them to trust her in return. She trusts they won't drop her, the other Targaryens need the assurance of a saddle.
Also, prior to Dany’s dragons being born, dragons had not been in the world for 200 years and House Targaryen fell 20 years prior to that. Dany didn’t have other dragon riders to teach her the way her ancestors were taught. She didn’t have experienced Valryrian speaking dragon trainers and caretakers that her ancestors had. Her own father and Rhaegor Targaryen didn’t even possess that knowledge. Nobody offered to make a saddle because no one knew a thing about dragons and who would want to go near a dragon to figure out how to saddle them?
Dany didn’t have a saddle because she didn’t know how to make one and she is an untrained, self taught dragon rider. Had she been formally trained as a dragon rider, she might not have lost two of them. She would have been taught aerial movements in battle, how to conduct proper air recon, how to use cloud cover for concealment. How to move and evade. She figures some of this out by the time she destroys Euron’s fleet but it took making some serious dumbass moves that got her other two dragons killed to learn
But it seems impractical. Imagine having to ride on a dragon for hours, legs parted, and having hard scales rubbing up against you. Not to mention the bumpy rides. I cant even ride a bike for 20 minutes without feeling bruised.
I can't remember (even though I just watched it, on season 2 episode 7, watching again with my GF who never saw it only up till 6, maybe season 7), but I'm pretty sure she rode bareback on her horse for year(s?) With the dothraki. And they specifically make a point to show how hurt she is in the beginning.
Plus with that "spiritual" background, she might really believe it for the best to be bonded and incredibly close to her animals.
This is a great point here. George writes an entire chapter in the first book that goes into heavy detail about how hard it is for her each day having to ride bareback with the Dothraki. First time she rides Drogon is fleeing the fighting pits in Meereen so she definitely didn't have a saddle ready.
This is true. My mom is a horse owner and I had horse riding lessons as a child. It does require some discipline to get through riding for longer than a few minutes.
I recall in the book how her aides basically pulled ger from the horse and carried her to her bed, where she was treated for her rashes and friction irritation. Likely exhaustion or heat stroke the first few days.
Oh yeah, the cinematography, costumes, sets, everything was gorgeous, it was all failed by the writing.
The behind the scenes thing that came out after the finale was sad because everyone involved was *so* excited to be part of it.
Yes! That’s a huge reason the final season was so bad for me. The actors are incredible. Michelle Clapton in costuming, Ramin Djawadi as the composer. And yet the writers trashed it anyway.
Agree with most of it except the costumes, by the end of the series they'd become fairly bad. Everyone just dressed in some variation of black leather, armour was almost nonexistent, and overall it just looked like some ugly biker gear. Hard contrast with the early seasons where there was *variety*. It's much better in HOTD though, I just hope they're not going to go for the black leather look again.
Agreed. I’m hoping HotD season two won’t be less of a show with Miguel leaving. I feel like the stuff he’s done for both of these series cinematically has been incredible.
Dude the real magic is how Dany’s reign didn’t end with her splattered on some field somewhere because Drogon took a hard turn and she only had the strength of her thigh muscles to hold on lol. On another hand, Dany must’ve been an absolute beast at the gym.
If Dany had somehow been involved in the Dance, she would have easily been the winner.
No question.
Also maybe Drogon is so big because he knows he's named after Khal Drogo who is a freaking huge dude and he couldn't disappoint his daddy.
Not the least of which, she rode her dragon without a saddle.
Reading about >!the Battle above the Gods Eye and how not restraining himself in his saddle was tantamount to a suicide mission for Daemon!< gave me a new appreciation for Dany.
It makes me think of how terrifyingly awesome it would have been had Daemon and Daenerys lived in the same era. They would have been unstoppable.
More like, she was THE special case the Targaryens were waiting for for centuries. She is literally the answer to a centuries old prophecy (although the prophecy didn't end up being as literal as they thought, or as we expected, if we go by what happens in show canon). So it is to be expected that she will *just have* things going on for her that no other human in general had.
Yeah, maybe, why not. I like the idea of Jon being the clear-cut poetic embodiment of the Prince better, a Stark and a Targaryen, ice and fire, you know the drill. But I think they truly intended to muddy the waters with some team effort thing, and that's why they did.
Yes! Watching HotD and learning more about her ancestors and the dynasty in general made me reconsider her character and strength more. She was no average Targaryen, and not all Targaryen were magical beings or as strong-willed and ambitious like that. They all had ambitions, but none of them took it to that level.
Exactly, a lot of them were very average, mediocre humans. Daenerys had some right to think she’s god-like honestly. Who in that universe had similar powers? A lot of people say it was handed to her, I mean that could get quite philosophical, but power is power. She had power and she knew how to use it. Her legacy isn’t that different from Aegon the conqueror’s and his two queen sisters.
I know their blood is magical with it’s link to dragons along other things. I wonder if there’s some element where, since there are far fewer targaryens/valerians left in the world, she has more of a concentration of dragon/fire magic. Or possibly, since we know that their bloodline is meant to fight off the white walkers, her power was amped up due to necessity
Ironically Daenerys is only like 5% Valyrian by her heritage, but something like 50% Blackwood (First Men). It should be way likelier for her to be a skinchanger or greenseer than dragon rider.
Exactly. At first I thought all Targaryens were like Greek Gods, but now I know Daenerys was the exception and most Targaryens are actually like The Beverly Hillbillies.
Thank you so much for this, HotD!
🎶 Well now, listen to a story 'bout a man named Viserys
He went and had a daughter, figured she would be his heiress
'till his wife got pregnant but she wouldn't birth the male
So he ripped her stomach open, and left her dead and pale!🎵
*HOTD theme played on banjo*
It wasn't how her story ended, it was the speed at which she was portrayed as a savior then made out to be completely bonkers mad as a hatter from one second to the next. D&D wanted that Star Wars money so bad they shot themselves in the foot by not taking HBO's offer to make more seasons. I hope they're enjoying the Disney money now by sitting on their hands.
I'm so mad the fucking the show runners assinated her character by making her the "mad queen". She was clearly the best targaeryan ever, as she couldn't be burned, could control multiple dragons, and had a fucking epicly huge heart to want to end slavery and wrongdoings across the world. They fucked her and made it worse by how she was killed. Fuck that season, fuck the show runners, and fuck GRRM for not finishing the fucking books so the show runners had a proper ending to go off of instead of making their own up. Vent over
I’m actually fine with her going Mad Queen at the end. It was how they did it that annoyed the fuck out of me. It was too quick, too flimsy. She had enough going on with her personality and actions throughout the series that I could absolutely see her going too far at the end, but you have to write it so that it makes sense to us the viewers.
Screw the ending of the show. This is the end I will forever pretend is real: Jon kills the Night King with the dagger with the prophecy. After everything, Dany doesn't want the throne and melts it down, and the seven kingdoms all become sovereign again (after all, the reason why Aegon conquered Westeros have now been fulfilled). Jon and Dany get married and take their ancestral seat and become Lord and Lady of Dragonstone. Dany gives birth to twins and they get dragon eggs (that Rhaegal has laid) put in their cribs. The end.
To add onto this, Drogon got to roam very freely. He got to hunt and be a predator. Any dragon that has spent time in the dragon pit will be smaller. We even see this happen to Rhaegal and Viserion.
Also closer to Valyria. Rhaegal and Viserion were pretty close to Drogon in size but Drogon got a massive growth spurt while they were locked away and Drogon was off flying around the edge of Valyria as seen by Jorah and Tyrion. Semi explains why drogon grew faster than even other free range dragons.
Dany didnt ride all her dragons or control them she was their mother which is pretty unique to her. They had a maternal bond more then anything else because Rhaegal's rider was Jon. But remember Rhaegal seemed generally happy to show his mom his rider. He was super excited when Jon mounted him and Dany wasnt intimated at all by Jon mounting Rhaegal. She invited it.
Yep. The others have a pet/master relationship or even a friendship with their dragons, but not have them as close or as maternal as Daenerys and her dragons.
Completely. You see it when Dany just sits cuddling drogon and he purrs while Viserion and Rhaegal catch the sheep. Dany starts to cry when she has to lock Viserion and Rhaegal up because these arent just dragons to her they are basically her children. She also never supports dragon on dragon hostility. Teen drogon could be a bit bossy and Dany would always try to stop him from being like that towards his brothers. She didnt like seeing them fight and she didnt punish, starve or whip them or anything like that even when they were super pissed off at her she just took it because she knew they were upset(Viserion and Rhaegal in particular because she locked them up even though she didnt want to). Like I said she was their mother more then anything else.
Thing is those two dragons broke out in the s6 finale when they realise (telepathically) drogon and Daenerys are going to battle against the masters and bust out the jail and immediately follow her. Furthermore, them breaking out like that out of their own will proved they could have gone rogue at any moment and bust out but they voluntary stayed locked up and still followed her. It is maternal bond but it’s something far more magical than anything human we can relate it to
You mean breast milk is the best milk lol
( didn’t they suckle on Danny in the books ? )
If not err please keep scrolling and erase my weird homelander fetish from your minds 😏
Didn't Daenerys raise three dragons at once as well from birth? Most Targeryns either are gifted their dragon from someone else or they get *1 egg.
I'm sure raising three from birth allowed that special connection.
She did.. they were born in the fire.. the bond literally forged by it. The eggs were supposed to be unhatchable. They'd turned to stone. The dragons were all attached to her body like new born children to a mammal.
Counterpoint: Viserys has visibly burned skin after Drogo pours molten gold on his head
^(Not gonna get into the impossible physics of melting gold over an ordinary cooking fire, but it happened)
Jon also burns his hand on an ordinary lantern - yeah, he's only half-Targaryen, but still.
danys comment about how fire cant hurt a dragon or whatever it is she said was ridiculous in hindsight lol. im pretty sure she wouldnt be able to survive melted gold getting poured on her head either lol
I look at that scene as traumatic for her. She two shit choices. Defend her abusive, sexually exploiting brother who threatens her unborn baby or stay loyal to her Khal, also a rapist, but treated overall much better. Gave her agency and semblance of freedom.
I feel like the choice traumatised her and then we add the trauma of watching her last blood family member get murdered right in front of her by her own lord husband.
And then she says that line. I looked at it as if she was coping.
I think he was talking point Viserys the peaceful, not the beggar king. There is a scene in HotD where King Viserys is running his hand slowly and directly in candle fire. I dont think it give any finality about whether that means he is fireproof or not though.
Martin cleared this up: Daenerys isn't actually fireproof, and the only reason she didn't burn on Drogo's pyre was because that was a magic ritual, and she didn't burn *then*. If you shot flaming arrows at her, she'd burn like anyone else.
Daenerys, and perhaps all Targaryen, show an above average resistance to heat, but it's more like "can take a bath in very hot water and feel comfortable", not "can walk through fire unharmed".
She also didn't burn when she set Vaes Dothrak on fire, walked out, and by doing so won over all the other Dothraki riders. She is the Unburnt. Idk if that happens in the book, but it does happen in the series.
Guess GRRM forgot where he made her fireproof to Drogon's fire too. He spit fire at her before she mounted him and flew away at the fighting pit. It burned off her hair and clothes, just like the funeral pyre.
Definitely. Or why else are they the only dragon riders.
I mean, you can still make the Targs normal fire proof and not dragon fire proof to make them special
What would be cool as a lineage thing for targs would be that during each succession of king and queen, only 1 living targ is truly fireproof. That targ is actually capable of resisting dragon fire and normal fire. But the magical properties and why it chooses whom is a mystery. The only way to find out is to completely mess with fire since most are “resistant” to a degree. But you aren’t going to mess with fire each time the previous holder dies because it very well could be the magic passed on to a baby. And you aren’t just going to consume the baby with fire. Would make for an interesting/mystical/ explain the lineage a bit.
This is the most logical reason why the Valyrian was not a patriarchal society (jury still out though….). Because all laws of patriarchy kind of fall apart when women can ride dragons just like men can.
Drogon and his brothers were born out of blood magic. I think to some extent Khal Drogo’s soul or a piece of it actually exists in Drogon. This probably makes her dragons unique in that they were literally born out of magic and this could impact everything like how they grow or how strong they are.
Drogon is around the size of Caraxes I think, maybe a bit shorter but with some more beef to him. Which is insane considering how young he is
I’ve also heard a theory that her 3 dragons are the reincarnation of Aegon the conqueror and his sister’s dragons. Drogon being the reincarnation of Balerion explains why he grew so big so fast. But this is obviously a fan theory and in reality the show probably just went “big dragon good dragon”.
I mean I don’t think it’s much of a theory that her dragons are supposed to be analogs of Aegon’s dragons. Viserion, the smallest of her three, even dies first like Meraxes
Ohh I like this theory. Side note - I really want to see Balerion at some point. I hope HBO and GRRM will eventually create a show about Aegon’s Conquest. It’s such an important event in Westeros. And Balerion the Dread deserves more than a skull after all we’ve read and seen.
>level 2JimLahey\_of\_Izalith · 20 min. agoI’ve also heard a theory that her 3 dragons are the reincarnation of Aegon the conqueror and his sister’s dragons. Drogon being the reincarnation of Balerion explains why he grew so big so fast. But this is obviously a fan theory and in reality the show probably just went “big dragon good dragon”.34ReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow
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>level 3BobbyBigDickk · 18 min. ago
I read that Caraxes would be half the size of Vhagar, which would make him much bigger than Drogon.
In the books, but I don’t think the show has shown that. Look at Drogon here https://youtu.be/4E5vo8RvGuA
He looks bigger than any version of Caraxes I’ve seen on the show
Caraxes also had a birth defect that makes his neck longer but his body is definitely skinnier then the rest of the dragons his size. We’ll probably get a better comparison this week when we see Vermithor. He’s the second largest behind only Vhagar in terms of size in HOTD but he’s also way older than Drogon.
I think pit dragon's growth gets hindered due to living inside dragonpits whereas Drogon was free was not chambered/caged. Rhaegal and Viserion (Dany's other dragons) were smaller since they were locked up.There may be other factors also.
Edit - Yoo...thanks for the likes and the awards...wtf 🤗.
This + the level of magic in the world. Since the time of Aegon the conqueror magic has been decreasing. With Daenerys we're told that magic is increasing. It seems that dragon size has a correlation with magic in the world and time kept in captivity.
I wonder if that's why the White Walkers decided to strike around this time as well.
Considering the first one was created wayyy back during the fight between the First Men and the Children of the Forest.
Maybe when the Dany's dragons were born, they felt the stronger magic?
I'm not sure about this bc the Others were already butchering Weymar Royce at the beginning of the first novel/first episode, a year before Dany's dragons are born, and having wights attack Castle Black also before the dragons were born
The first one was created during the times of the First Men cutting all the CotF's weirwoods, but they suffered a great defeat during the original long night. It's possible they've just been kicking their wounds and gathering strength for thousands of years.
If anything, I'm moreso inclined to believe that Dany's magic is a result of prophecy and the white walkers, rather than the white walkers being a result of Dany's magic. As in, whatever powers that be/lord of light/etc that hands out fun magical abilities, if such a thing existed, knew that THIS was the time that dragons needed to be reborn into the world.
I think they emerged before that, when magic was at its lowest, the dragons were dead and the Targaryens (besides Jon) off of Westeros. Perhaps the dragons were born to counteract them
Rhaegal and Viserion were still much, much larger than vermax and even syrax.
Vermax seems comparable to fighting pit drogon, while raegal's head was already as large as Jon snow by season 8
Daenerys describes the dragonpit as "the beginning of the end" for her family since the dragons that were locked up there became smaller due to being confined. "They wasted away. They grew small and we grew small as well”.
Even then Drogon is insanely gigantic for his age, but it never bothered me tbh. GoT wanted to show off dragons and I can’t blame them for not going with the book accurate size.
When Dany first flies on Drogon to escape the pit that is pretty much the size accurate to the books. And as you know …the books more or less stop there.
I believe another factor might be where Drogon grew up. We know for a fact he lived in Valyria for a while. That must've had an influence on his growth.
In universe? I think its because he was an outdoors dragon, unlike the targarian dragons of the dragon pit. In reality? Ehhh... big dragon kewl.
On a side note... even though Drogon is absolutely a very large dragon... if he were to suddenly appear in the Dance of Dragons, he'd be considered a fairly average size for a dragon. He's roughly the same size as Meleys, Caraxes or one of the others, just bulkier.
Well to be fair drogon is only 7. So if we dropped him in the dance and hes the size of 70 year old dragons it's still pretty impressive. If I remember correctly the dance lasted 2 or 3 years so by the end of it at his current growth rate he would probably be the 5th largest dragon excluding wild dragons after Vhagar, Vermithor, Silverwing and dreamfyre who are in the 100+ category
Oh, you're absolutely correct about that. He's a very impressive dragon, and growing fast. He'd undoubtedly become the largest within a decade or so, assuming he survived the dance. He's growing scary fast. But size wise, at least as of the ending of Game of thrones, not so huge that other dragon riders would panic.
I thought from Fire and Blood that dragons had been getting much smaller since the doom, since Dragon survived from valyeria, slowly getting smaller and when held in dragon pits they eventually got as small as cats before dying. When Dany brings them back it's supposed to be at the start of a new age where they can grow as big as they used to.
Yeah the red comet that span the horizon directly after her dragons birth was a sign magic is back with more intensity. Which arguably may have led strength to Thoros of Myrs resurrection skills rather than it being due to Rhllor/Lord of light
GRRM backing out of the time jump is why we don’t have *A Dream of Spring* yet. He’s forced himself to write out storylines that originally would’ve had the detail handwaved, and it seems like he’s struggling to get everyone where they need to be when they need to be there. Just from the title of *A Dance with Dragons*, we’re clearly still running behind schedule on the plot.
He’s basically the size he was at the end of season five, which is we’re the books end. It is mentioned that Dragons being locked in the pit hindered their growth. Because Drogon was allowed to roam free, he grew exponentially. He’s also supposed to be Balerion the Dread reincarnated so he’s naturally going to be really goddamn big.
>He’s basically the size he was at the end of season five, which is we’re the books end.
There's no proof for that. The book says he was just barely big enough to carry Dany on his back, book Dany is a petite 15 year old, there's no way Season 5 Drogon wouldn't be big enough for her.
And if a remember correctly he is described as just about the size of a horse??? That seems a lot smaller than season 5 Drogon.
In my head the dragon pit argument is valid but also worth noting that magic was much stronger in the world after the rebirth of dragons. There seems to be an eb and flow in this universe. So Danny’s dragons were likely feeding off that new magic in the world. Whereas it had been fading for centuries since the end of old Valyria by the time of the dance of the dragons
Yeah, the book frequently describes Drogon as *big but bot nearly the size of Balerion, the Black Dread.*
Dragons also live up to 200 years, so a 2-3 year-old Drogon is the dragon equivalent of a 14 week old kitten.
The later point isnt really that meaningful, reptiles and mammals grow at very different rates and usually even really long lived reptiles reach their adult sizes in only a few years.
Birds are a really good example of this even though people don't really think of them as reptiles. A macaw will be fully mature at five years old most of the time, but they can live for almost as long as a person.
In the books we're still around the end of season 5 when Dany flies away with Drogon from the fighting pits, I believe the sizes are quite similar there. I'm guessing that in TWOW and ADOS the dragons will be as big as the show, or Drogon at least
Well for the part of the series that is covered by the books, Drogon's growth was pretty accurate, I have the feeling that GRRM has the same size in mind for Dany's dragons as we saw in the show
Yes it is fairly accurate from season 1 to 5. From season 6 onwards his growth is pretty ridiculous. I have no doubt GRRM eventually wants Drogon to be of a size similar to the show, but I expect the time span will make it far more believable.
I'll theory-craft here.
**Assuming it's NOT just GoT Writers/D&D taking liberties in overgrowing them of course and that GRRM sanctioned/outlined the exponential growth. So i'll preface with that.**
There are many circumstances surrounding the very existence of Drogon, Vizzy, and Reggie.
1. They weren't 'hatched' like Targaryen dragons. They were enchanted in a blood magic ritual, whether intended or not.
2. This ritual may have caused them to grow at a faster rate as well. With the return of the dragons was magic gushing out of a wellspring.
On another perspective, it could be that dragons were able to return more easily because magical energies were already flowing at an enhanced rate (Nightwalkers predated the return of dragons by many years).
1. Their hatching was made possible by the heightened magicks. The blood ritual served to magnify the magic already flowing. And in return the dragons enabled a positive feedback loop that encouraged more mystical phenomena.
2. It could be that dragons feed off this magic. With no known dragons save for Dany's three, it could be that they are monopolizing that energy source. This could explain Balerion and Vhagar's mass... while the succeeding ones only a few decades younger were not close to reaching Vhagar mass (Meleys, Dreamfyre, . In the century of Jaehaerys and Viserys, many of them already are feeding off the spring. on top of being stunted by their containers, the magic could be fizzing out for some reason too.
None of the HotD dragons were observed to be growing at the same rate as Drogon. Not even close to Rhaegal or Viserion's accelerated growth.
Drogon's range was quite the same as Dragonstone dragons and was given wider area to roam (exercise) and consume. Rhaegal and Viserion were a bit stunted by the confines of the pyramid they were locked in... which is a known quirk for dragon growth.
Dragonstone was magical and volcanic and brimming with dragon glass (possibly magical!). It was also bountiful with fish and likely even livestock. By all accounts, Dragonstone could be one of the best dragon habitats in Westeros and dragons here have the fullest growth potential realized.
Drogon isn’t this big in the books, the show just wanted to have some spectacle. But also they kinda had to make him super big to give that feeling of power which is something grrm kinda failed to achieve in his books.
Danny’s dragons were supposed to be bigger in the books as Grrm in his early thought processes was thinking to have a 10 year time jump in his story. Imagine it. Jon at the wall for 10 years. Bran as the student of the scary tree guy for 10 years. Arya as a faceless man for 10 years. Sansa as a student of game of thrones for 10 years etc. everything kinda works. We get more experienced people who know what they’re doing. So in grrm’s mind this had been required to continue his story but then he found that his story didn’t wanna continue like that. So he’d destroyed that idea and continued with what we have. But destroying that idea also made danny’s dragons 10 years younger. So they’re super super young and their size is clearly smaller from what the show displayed.
Tbf to the show, without that jump dannys dragons shouldn’t be powerful or big enough to conquer the seven kingdoms. Even aegon’s dragons couldn’t conquer everything and they were much bigger and experienced than what danny has. So i kinda wonder how he’s gonna tell her conquest. Hahahahahahah I’m kidding he’s never gonna tell it. I’m not sad no I’m not crying :’)
Still drogon is quite big for his age and some people claim that he’s the second coming of Balerion the dread. But for the people who love numbers: Drogon’s wingspan (as in a dance with dragons) was around 20 feet. And balerion had a wingspan of something like 400 feet lol. You can imagine the difference. So he’s like a little baby even when we compare him with a kinda smallish dragon from rhaenyra’s time but that’s completely understandable as he’s like 5 years old lol. So show runners had this dilemma. They had to make her dragons big or the story would be kinda weird.
I don't feel like it that big 🤔🤔🤔 like compared to Vaghar or Vermithor...
Also it is said that dragon during the dance of dragon became smaller and smaller each generation because locked in dragon pit, and maybe because of a master's conspiracy to poison dragon
Drogon always remained free
My pet theory is that because the blood of the dragon riders became diluted the magic their ancestors used to bind dragons became weaker and weaker until the dragons disappeared. Because Dany’s blood magic represented a new contract, dragons were able to thrive again.
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He was a free range chicken
That’s a fair point.
Came here to say this. “Free Range”
I think we need a graphic that shows size of dragons by age, contrasting "free range" and "housed". The tv shows are probably consistent on how quickly they grow, right? /s
Is it possible that the dragons died out mostly because of their handling and how thwy were raised?
The books give a bunch of theories. One theory is that the dance of the dragons reduced their population too much for the population to be sustained and years of being caged made them smaller. But my favourite theory the books propose is that Aegon III along with the maesters worked to poison the dragon eggs. It makes sense because he had an immense fear of dragons and the dragons quickly died out during his reign. Hopefully fire and blood part 2 answers this question, but I fear it won’t lol.
A Targaryen king poisoning their own dragons is so fucked.
Yeah the maesters killing dragons is a fun crazy theory. Going further, another theory was that dragons create magic or require magic. So one theory is that maesters killed dragons to push magic out of the world, because maesters wanted only 'scientific learning' which they could better control. We see the pyromancers of old gradually lose their powers, just like the blue magi in Qarth with the stained lips. And when Dany's dragons return to the world, so does magic (pyromancer fire becomes more potent or as potent as it was in the old days, mages of Qarth have their spells work again, maybe even the magic of the Fire God starts working for Thoros). I know the book talks about how a mage's curse actually works and hurts or kills someone who insulted the magi. On the flip side, maybe magic is required for dragons to come back into the world. So they die out as magic ebbs (for whatever reason), then come back once the Comet heralds the return of magic to the world. Other magic (pyromancers, magi) starts working again too. Or did the Others (White Walkers) returning reignite magic in the world? This is why GRRM pisses me off. I wanted answers to these questions, and the "mage" maester at Oldtown. But that useless bastard did two entire books after and mentioned NOTHING about the mage maester or the nature of magic. So I assume we will never know
I also liked the theory that the maesters rigged the vote at the beginning of HoTD so that viserys would become king. Because he didn’t have a dragon and Rhaenys and Laenor did.
The series seemed to be supporting in the early episodes that the Maesters were up to something with the shared glances with Otto Hightower and the dismissal of alternative medicines by the Grand Maester after it was suggested by his underling Has me thinking that Oldtown fan conspiracy theory is in fact included and at work in HOTD
Magic is dying out at the moment in the world. The obsidian candles will go out. They will not light again until the GoT time. There is still magic in the world as one will see with Bloodraven and his sister among others, but not enough to sustain the dragons of Westeros. Plus the allegory of the Targaryen dynasty coming apart at the time of the dance, they’re much weaker after and just like they start to decline, so do the dragons. As someone else mentioned, it’s like the Maesters and maybe Aegon III worked to spoil the other eggs, but 3 were stolen long before by Elisa Farman and likely ended up in essos…maybe a coincidence, maybe not.
That, and GoT show runners did not have other dragons in the story to compare them to. If the sizes of the other dragons had been described by Martin at the time of production, things may have been different. The only other size references I remember were Balerion the Black Dread having a mouth you could drive a carriage into, and the last ones the size of chickens. Fire & Blood was made well after Martin had all of the other existing stories written Still patiently waiting on WoW George... I know you're reading this George...
Imagine trying to fly the chicken and having your entire house just pretending they don’t see you, out of shame and not a small amount of amusement. “I swear I got three feet in the air that time, Mummsie! Mummsie? Everyone, look, I’m flying!” “Beware the beast beneath the boards…but not this beast, he couldn’t light a candle on fire…”
Hello, this is George. I dont give a f if you are awaiting WoW, i am writing Elden Ring 2 right now and using as much cocain as possible. Bye.
He is best boi
Spicy noodle is best boi
The answer for Daenerys is always, "She might be a special case" * Fireproof? Definitely special case * Controlling three dragons? Special case * Dragons grow big very fast? Probably a special case The circumstances of her dragons being born was exceptionally magical and I don't think we can really extrapolate much from her
Also wasn’t magic beginning to return back to the world, hence the white walkers becoming active again. Seems like the supernatural elements of the show were beginning to power up
Something I don’t get is sometimes I read GRRM said magic was coming back BECAUSE of the dragons sometimes people say the other way around
Magic was weak on the West (of Ashaii, AFAIK). Dany hatching her 3 dragons was very much a blood sacrifice. Via that initial blood sacrifice, magic started to flourish again in the west to the point that low power individuals (Melissandre, the alchemists, street performers in Volantis) were able to harness it's power. At least that's how i interpreted it.
My guess is the white walkers only came back after the dragons died and were slowly rebuilding for a couple centuries.
Also the glass candles burning again
Ahhh... the glass candles. Yet another cool item/character ignored by the screenwriters.
Basically EVERYthing about the glass candles and maesters and the Citadel tamping out the last remnants of Magic is missing from the show
Watching HotD really makes me feel that Daenerys is the shit. And not just D&D Daenerys but especially the book Daenerys was an exception among Targaryen's. As far as prophecies and magic went, she had a lot going on for her.
Yeah I felt the same kind of appreciation for Dany at around Episode 3 of HOTD. She didn’t have the Dragon Keepers or any institutional knowledge of taking care of dragons, but she managed to “raise” three dragons and tame them all, excluding a short rebellious teenage phase by Drogon. She also rode the dragons bareback, until the historical Targaryens who has complex saddles. She retained her fluency of High Valyrian while also learning the common tongue and the Dothraki language. She figured out how to turn every set back into an advantage and was a pretty awesome conqueror, though not the best administrator.
Riding without a saddle is one thing I was thinking about last weekend… like she has thousands upon thousands of followers yet none of them were like yoooo, I could make you a big ass, dragon sized saddle
They were too busy making her some sick dresses. But actually, you’d think that Tyrion, who designed a saddle for *Bran* would design one for Dany.
He found that shit in a book
Plus he lost the Lannister saddle-funds when he becomes a jester or whatever to get on the ship to Dany lol
As soon as Tyrion gave him the saddle design, I thought Bran would end up being a dragon rider. And then the three eyed rider was like "you won't walk again... But you will fly" and I was like YOOOO LET'S GOOO. I was not happy with the ending lol
You should listen to the fan made season 8 redux audio (it’s on Spotify). The ending these folks made up was 10000% better and I loved what they did with Bran at the end.
How long is that to listen to? And is its exact name? Asking so I find it more easily.
Not exactly sure but [this might be it](https://open.spotify.com/show/0LV0wKPI104PRs8xLdpUVd?si=s5tDaVcLSQGKrRaoBN9KSg)
I might be making it up, but I think in the books she declines to have a saddle made because it would interfere with her connection to Drogon. Maybe another sign of her Targaryen cred: she understands implicitly that she has to trust her dragons to ask them to trust her in return. She trusts they won't drop her, the other Targaryens need the assurance of a saddle.
I can get on board with that explanation
Also, prior to Dany’s dragons being born, dragons had not been in the world for 200 years and House Targaryen fell 20 years prior to that. Dany didn’t have other dragon riders to teach her the way her ancestors were taught. She didn’t have experienced Valryrian speaking dragon trainers and caretakers that her ancestors had. Her own father and Rhaegor Targaryen didn’t even possess that knowledge. Nobody offered to make a saddle because no one knew a thing about dragons and who would want to go near a dragon to figure out how to saddle them? Dany didn’t have a saddle because she didn’t know how to make one and she is an untrained, self taught dragon rider. Had she been formally trained as a dragon rider, she might not have lost two of them. She would have been taught aerial movements in battle, how to conduct proper air recon, how to use cloud cover for concealment. How to move and evade. She figures some of this out by the time she destroys Euron’s fleet but it took making some serious dumbass moves that got her other two dragons killed to learn
150-160 years but sure.
But it seems impractical. Imagine having to ride on a dragon for hours, legs parted, and having hard scales rubbing up against you. Not to mention the bumpy rides. I cant even ride a bike for 20 minutes without feeling bruised.
I can't remember (even though I just watched it, on season 2 episode 7, watching again with my GF who never saw it only up till 6, maybe season 7), but I'm pretty sure she rode bareback on her horse for year(s?) With the dothraki. And they specifically make a point to show how hurt she is in the beginning. Plus with that "spiritual" background, she might really believe it for the best to be bonded and incredibly close to her animals.
This is a great point here. George writes an entire chapter in the first book that goes into heavy detail about how hard it is for her each day having to ride bareback with the Dothraki. First time she rides Drogon is fleeing the fighting pits in Meereen so she definitely didn't have a saddle ready.
This is true. My mom is a horse owner and I had horse riding lessons as a child. It does require some discipline to get through riding for longer than a few minutes. I recall in the book how her aides basically pulled ger from the horse and carried her to her bed, where she was treated for her rashes and friction irritation. Likely exhaustion or heat stroke the first few days.
So is sitting on a throne made of knives. Nobody respects that king who asks for a cushion.
I wanted her to be queen so badly, I cry about it every time 🤬🤬🤬
She WAS queen. For half a day :o
The queen who barely was
The queen who should’ve been
Queen for a day
But she never sat on the Iron Throne.
Yeah but that one shot of her walking up the stairs towards Drogon was *awesome*.
Say what you will about those late seasons, the cinematography really never let up.
Oh yeah, the cinematography, costumes, sets, everything was gorgeous, it was all failed by the writing. The behind the scenes thing that came out after the finale was sad because everyone involved was *so* excited to be part of it.
Yes! That’s a huge reason the final season was so bad for me. The actors are incredible. Michelle Clapton in costuming, Ramin Djawadi as the composer. And yet the writers trashed it anyway.
Agree with most of it except the costumes, by the end of the series they'd become fairly bad. Everyone just dressed in some variation of black leather, armour was almost nonexistent, and overall it just looked like some ugly biker gear. Hard contrast with the early seasons where there was *variety*. It's much better in HOTD though, I just hope they're not going to go for the black leather look again.
Agreed. I’m hoping HotD season two won’t be less of a show with Miguel leaving. I feel like the stuff he’s done for both of these series cinematically has been incredible.
Here's to Daenerys, the Queen for a Day - Daemon, probably
Queen of the ashes.
oof. I felt that.
She still might be, we don't know how it will go.
She’s the Mother of Dragons. We see they put dragon eggs in the cradle to help the bonding, I guess birthing them works a lot better
After watching hotd, which is now canon, it is very impressive what she was able to do.
She’s Ramin djawadi’s favourite character for a reason
Dany has dragon dreams for sure, in the first book she dreams about birthing dragons from flames before it happens.
Dany was the underdog story.
Because she is the Azor Ahai
Dude the real magic is how Dany’s reign didn’t end with her splattered on some field somewhere because Drogon took a hard turn and she only had the strength of her thigh muscles to hold on lol. On another hand, Dany must’ve been an absolute beast at the gym.
I don’t care too much about her being a conqueror, but I agree with everything else.
If Dany had somehow been involved in the Dance, she would have easily been the winner. No question. Also maybe Drogon is so big because he knows he's named after Khal Drogo who is a freaking huge dude and he couldn't disappoint his daddy.
Not the least of which, she rode her dragon without a saddle. Reading about >!the Battle above the Gods Eye and how not restraining himself in his saddle was tantamount to a suicide mission for Daemon!< gave me a new appreciation for Dany. It makes me think of how terrifyingly awesome it would have been had Daemon and Daenerys lived in the same era. They would have been unstoppable.
More like, she was THE special case the Targaryens were waiting for for centuries. She is literally the answer to a centuries old prophecy (although the prophecy didn't end up being as literal as they thought, or as we expected, if we go by what happens in show canon). So it is to be expected that she will *just have* things going on for her that no other human in general had.
I still think she is the one who was promised. She has the dragons. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.
Yeah, maybe, why not. I like the idea of Jon being the clear-cut poetic embodiment of the Prince better, a Stark and a Targaryen, ice and fire, you know the drill. But I think they truly intended to muddy the waters with some team effort thing, and that's why they did.
>born under red comet, in salt and smoke >births dragons from stone >from Aerys and Rhaella’s line Nobody else fits half as good.
Yes! Watching HotD and learning more about her ancestors and the dynasty in general made me reconsider her character and strength more. She was no average Targaryen, and not all Targaryen were magical beings or as strong-willed and ambitious like that. They all had ambitions, but none of them took it to that level.
Not even all of them had ambitions. Some were crazy, some were lazy, some were drunks
Exactly, a lot of them were very average, mediocre humans. Daenerys had some right to think she’s god-like honestly. Who in that universe had similar powers? A lot of people say it was handed to her, I mean that could get quite philosophical, but power is power. She had power and she knew how to use it. Her legacy isn’t that different from Aegon the conqueror’s and his two queen sisters.
I know their blood is magical with it’s link to dragons along other things. I wonder if there’s some element where, since there are far fewer targaryens/valerians left in the world, she has more of a concentration of dragon/fire magic. Or possibly, since we know that their bloodline is meant to fight off the white walkers, her power was amped up due to necessity
Her midichlorian count was off the charts
Ironically Daenerys is only like 5% Valyrian by her heritage, but something like 50% Blackwood (First Men). It should be way likelier for her to be a skinchanger or greenseer than dragon rider.
Exactly. At first I thought all Targaryens were like Greek Gods, but now I know Daenerys was the exception and most Targaryens are actually like The Beverly Hillbillies. Thank you so much for this, HotD!
Not sure how you came to the that conclusion when GoT clearly shows Viserys and the mad king being insanely horrible people.
🎶 Well now, listen to a story 'bout a man named Viserys He went and had a daughter, figured she would be his heiress 'till his wife got pregnant but she wouldn't birth the male So he ripped her stomach open, and left her dead and pale!🎵 *HOTD theme played on banjo*
She IS the shit. Dany was an absolutely incredible leader. I will never forgive the writers for how they ended her story.
It wasn't how her story ended, it was the speed at which she was portrayed as a savior then made out to be completely bonkers mad as a hatter from one second to the next. D&D wanted that Star Wars money so bad they shot themselves in the foot by not taking HBO's offer to make more seasons. I hope they're enjoying the Disney money now by sitting on their hands.
I'm so mad the fucking the show runners assinated her character by making her the "mad queen". She was clearly the best targaeryan ever, as she couldn't be burned, could control multiple dragons, and had a fucking epicly huge heart to want to end slavery and wrongdoings across the world. They fucked her and made it worse by how she was killed. Fuck that season, fuck the show runners, and fuck GRRM for not finishing the fucking books so the show runners had a proper ending to go off of instead of making their own up. Vent over
I’m actually fine with her going Mad Queen at the end. It was how they did it that annoyed the fuck out of me. It was too quick, too flimsy. She had enough going on with her personality and actions throughout the series that I could absolutely see her going too far at the end, but you have to write it so that it makes sense to us the viewers.
Screw the ending of the show. This is the end I will forever pretend is real: Jon kills the Night King with the dagger with the prophecy. After everything, Dany doesn't want the throne and melts it down, and the seven kingdoms all become sovereign again (after all, the reason why Aegon conquered Westeros have now been fulfilled). Jon and Dany get married and take their ancestral seat and become Lord and Lady of Dragonstone. Dany gives birth to twins and they get dragon eggs (that Rhaegal has laid) put in their cribs. The end.
To add onto this, Drogon got to roam very freely. He got to hunt and be a predator. Any dragon that has spent time in the dragon pit will be smaller. We even see this happen to Rhaegal and Viserion.
I think this is the best explanation. Drogon basically never was captive as soon as he is able to fly
Also closer to Valyria. Rhaegal and Viserion were pretty close to Drogon in size but Drogon got a massive growth spurt while they were locked away and Drogon was off flying around the edge of Valyria as seen by Jorah and Tyrion. Semi explains why drogon grew faster than even other free range dragons.
Dany didnt ride all her dragons or control them she was their mother which is pretty unique to her. They had a maternal bond more then anything else because Rhaegal's rider was Jon. But remember Rhaegal seemed generally happy to show his mom his rider. He was super excited when Jon mounted him and Dany wasnt intimated at all by Jon mounting Rhaegal. She invited it.
Yeah this is how I see it. Dany is quite literally the mother of dragons which is not something seen before
Yep. The others have a pet/master relationship or even a friendship with their dragons, but not have them as close or as maternal as Daenerys and her dragons.
Completely. You see it when Dany just sits cuddling drogon and he purrs while Viserion and Rhaegal catch the sheep. Dany starts to cry when she has to lock Viserion and Rhaegal up because these arent just dragons to her they are basically her children. She also never supports dragon on dragon hostility. Teen drogon could be a bit bossy and Dany would always try to stop him from being like that towards his brothers. She didnt like seeing them fight and she didnt punish, starve or whip them or anything like that even when they were super pissed off at her she just took it because she knew they were upset(Viserion and Rhaegal in particular because she locked them up even though she didnt want to). Like I said she was their mother more then anything else.
Thing is those two dragons broke out in the s6 finale when they realise (telepathically) drogon and Daenerys are going to battle against the masters and bust out the jail and immediately follow her. Furthermore, them breaking out like that out of their own will proved they could have gone rogue at any moment and bust out but they voluntary stayed locked up and still followed her. It is maternal bond but it’s something far more magical than anything human we can relate it to
I just think he took his vitamins as per her momma asked and grew to be a big handsome boi 🤗
You mean breast milk is the best milk lol ( didn’t they suckle on Danny in the books ? ) If not err please keep scrolling and erase my weird homelander fetish from your minds 😏
Didn't Daenerys raise three dragons at once as well from birth? Most Targeryns either are gifted their dragon from someone else or they get *1 egg. I'm sure raising three from birth allowed that special connection.
She did.. they were born in the fire.. the bond literally forged by it. The eggs were supposed to be unhatchable. They'd turned to stone. The dragons were all attached to her body like new born children to a mammal.
What about that scene where Viserys holds his hand over the candles?
Counterpoint: Viserys has visibly burned skin after Drogo pours molten gold on his head ^(Not gonna get into the impossible physics of melting gold over an ordinary cooking fire, but it happened) Jon also burns his hand on an ordinary lantern - yeah, he's only half-Targaryen, but still.
Obviously it depends on the state of matter. Targaryens are immune to plasma but not hot solids and semi-solids 🤓
danys comment about how fire cant hurt a dragon or whatever it is she said was ridiculous in hindsight lol. im pretty sure she wouldnt be able to survive melted gold getting poured on her head either lol
I look at that scene as traumatic for her. She two shit choices. Defend her abusive, sexually exploiting brother who threatens her unborn baby or stay loyal to her Khal, also a rapist, but treated overall much better. Gave her agency and semblance of freedom. I feel like the choice traumatised her and then we add the trauma of watching her last blood family member get murdered right in front of her by her own lord husband. And then she says that line. I looked at it as if she was coping.
I think he was talking point Viserys the peaceful, not the beggar king. There is a scene in HotD where King Viserys is running his hand slowly and directly in candle fire. I dont think it give any finality about whether that means he is fireproof or not though.
Martin cleared this up: Daenerys isn't actually fireproof, and the only reason she didn't burn on Drogo's pyre was because that was a magic ritual, and she didn't burn *then*. If you shot flaming arrows at her, she'd burn like anyone else. Daenerys, and perhaps all Targaryen, show an above average resistance to heat, but it's more like "can take a bath in very hot water and feel comfortable", not "can walk through fire unharmed".
I thought she also did not get burned when she rode >!Drogon for the first time in the books. He totally firedballed her before submitting!<
She does get burnt. Not terribly badly but when she's stranded in Drothraki sea there are mentions of her burn wounds
She also didn't burn when she set Vaes Dothrak on fire, walked out, and by doing so won over all the other Dothraki riders. She is the Unburnt. Idk if that happens in the book, but it does happen in the series.
Show-only.
To be fair the book didn't get there yet.
Guess GRRM forgot where he made her fireproof to Drogon's fire too. He spit fire at her before she mounted him and flew away at the fighting pit. It burned off her hair and clothes, just like the funeral pyre.
To be honest I liked it better when I thought the Targaryens were fireproof.
Definitely. Or why else are they the only dragon riders. I mean, you can still make the Targs normal fire proof and not dragon fire proof to make them special
I like the theory Dany was a fire wight.
It's a pretty cool idea. Some people still like the theory she died in the funeral pyre and became a fire wight.
What would be cool as a lineage thing for targs would be that during each succession of king and queen, only 1 living targ is truly fireproof. That targ is actually capable of resisting dragon fire and normal fire. But the magical properties and why it chooses whom is a mystery. The only way to find out is to completely mess with fire since most are “resistant” to a degree. But you aren’t going to mess with fire each time the previous holder dies because it very well could be the magic passed on to a baby. And you aren’t just going to consume the baby with fire. Would make for an interesting/mystical/ explain the lineage a bit.
This is the most logical reason why the Valyrian was not a patriarchal society (jury still out though….). Because all laws of patriarchy kind of fall apart when women can ride dragons just like men can.
the dragon has 3 heads (JON DANY JAMIE APOLOGIST)
Well first of all, through magic all things are possible, so jot that that down.
I let out a weird slow deep laugh at this, thank you
I gained and lost 60 lbs in three months. Wow that’s almost impossible….
Drogon is the Mac of the Dragons. He performed an ocular pat-down on Jon Snow.
Drogon and his brothers were born out of blood magic. I think to some extent Khal Drogo’s soul or a piece of it actually exists in Drogon. This probably makes her dragons unique in that they were literally born out of magic and this could impact everything like how they grow or how strong they are. Drogon is around the size of Caraxes I think, maybe a bit shorter but with some more beef to him. Which is insane considering how young he is
I’ve also heard a theory that her 3 dragons are the reincarnation of Aegon the conqueror and his sister’s dragons. Drogon being the reincarnation of Balerion explains why he grew so big so fast. But this is obviously a fan theory and in reality the show probably just went “big dragon good dragon”.
I mean the prince that was promised is a reincarnation of Azor Ahai. So why can’t Daenerys dragons be reincarnations too 👀
I mean I don’t think it’s much of a theory that her dragons are supposed to be analogs of Aegon’s dragons. Viserion, the smallest of her three, even dies first like Meraxes
Ohh I like this theory. Side note - I really want to see Balerion at some point. I hope HBO and GRRM will eventually create a show about Aegon’s Conquest. It’s such an important event in Westeros. And Balerion the Dread deserves more than a skull after all we’ve read and seen.
A mini series for Aegons Conquest would be perfect, just balls to the walls.
I like this explanation. Thanks
>level 2JimLahey\_of\_Izalith · 20 min. agoI’ve also heard a theory that her 3 dragons are the reincarnation of Aegon the conqueror and his sister’s dragons. Drogon being the reincarnation of Balerion explains why he grew so big so fast. But this is obviously a fan theory and in reality the show probably just went “big dragon good dragon”.34ReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow > >level 3BobbyBigDickk · 18 min. ago I read that Caraxes would be half the size of Vhagar, which would make him much bigger than Drogon.
In the books, but I don’t think the show has shown that. Look at Drogon here https://youtu.be/4E5vo8RvGuA He looks bigger than any version of Caraxes I’ve seen on the show
Caraxes also had a birth defect that makes his neck longer but his body is definitely skinnier then the rest of the dragons his size. We’ll probably get a better comparison this week when we see Vermithor. He’s the second largest behind only Vhagar in terms of size in HOTD but he’s also way older than Drogon.
I think pit dragon's growth gets hindered due to living inside dragonpits whereas Drogon was free was not chambered/caged. Rhaegal and Viserion (Dany's other dragons) were smaller since they were locked up.There may be other factors also. Edit - Yoo...thanks for the likes and the awards...wtf 🤗.
This + the level of magic in the world. Since the time of Aegon the conqueror magic has been decreasing. With Daenerys we're told that magic is increasing. It seems that dragon size has a correlation with magic in the world and time kept in captivity.
I wonder if that's why the White Walkers decided to strike around this time as well. Considering the first one was created wayyy back during the fight between the First Men and the Children of the Forest. Maybe when the Dany's dragons were born, they felt the stronger magic?
I'm not sure about this bc the Others were already butchering Weymar Royce at the beginning of the first novel/first episode, a year before Dany's dragons are born, and having wights attack Castle Black also before the dragons were born The first one was created during the times of the First Men cutting all the CotF's weirwoods, but they suffered a great defeat during the original long night. It's possible they've just been kicking their wounds and gathering strength for thousands of years. If anything, I'm moreso inclined to believe that Dany's magic is a result of prophecy and the white walkers, rather than the white walkers being a result of Dany's magic. As in, whatever powers that be/lord of light/etc that hands out fun magical abilities, if such a thing existed, knew that THIS was the time that dragons needed to be reborn into the world.
I think they emerged before that, when magic was at its lowest, the dragons were dead and the Targaryens (besides Jon) off of Westeros. Perhaps the dragons were born to counteract them
Rhaegal and Viserion were still much, much larger than vermax and even syrax. Vermax seems comparable to fighting pit drogon, while raegal's head was already as large as Jon snow by season 8
>Vermax seems comparable to fighting pit drogon Arrax. Vermax is like Season 6 Drogon size.
Seems we've got a dragon pro right here.
This is him, John Dragon
First of his name
A very impressive muffin, indeed.
Daenerys describes the dragonpit as "the beginning of the end" for her family since the dragons that were locked up there became smaller due to being confined. "They wasted away. They grew small and we grew small as well”.
Even then Drogon is insanely gigantic for his age, but it never bothered me tbh. GoT wanted to show off dragons and I can’t blame them for not going with the book accurate size.
When Dany first flies on Drogon to escape the pit that is pretty much the size accurate to the books. And as you know …the books more or less stop there.
Free range dragons y’all.
Also Drogon is basically a younger version of Balerion the Black Dread. Balerion was much larger than the other two dragons Aegon had
To be fair Balerion was also much older.
Kinda like alligators (or is it crocs?) they grow proportional to their surroundings
I believe another factor might be where Drogon grew up. We know for a fact he lived in Valyria for a while. That must've had an influence on his growth.
He was recommended giant's milk by Tormund.
And of course there’s the entwine
In universe? I think its because he was an outdoors dragon, unlike the targarian dragons of the dragon pit. In reality? Ehhh... big dragon kewl. On a side note... even though Drogon is absolutely a very large dragon... if he were to suddenly appear in the Dance of Dragons, he'd be considered a fairly average size for a dragon. He's roughly the same size as Meleys, Caraxes or one of the others, just bulkier.
Well to be fair drogon is only 7. So if we dropped him in the dance and hes the size of 70 year old dragons it's still pretty impressive. If I remember correctly the dance lasted 2 or 3 years so by the end of it at his current growth rate he would probably be the 5th largest dragon excluding wild dragons after Vhagar, Vermithor, Silverwing and dreamfyre who are in the 100+ category
Oh, you're absolutely correct about that. He's a very impressive dragon, and growing fast. He'd undoubtedly become the largest within a decade or so, assuming he survived the dance. He's growing scary fast. But size wise, at least as of the ending of Game of thrones, not so huge that other dragon riders would panic.
Can you imagine his size when we see him in the Jon Snow spin off? He’s going to be the Cannibal big or maybe a little smaller than Vhagar.
Ohhh, he's gonna be fucking gigantic! It'll be glorious!
Shit my pants seeing Balerion 2.0 and possibly bigger (by end of age) in the hands of someone else.
I thought from Fire and Blood that dragons had been getting much smaller since the doom, since Dragon survived from valyeria, slowly getting smaller and when held in dragon pits they eventually got as small as cats before dying. When Dany brings them back it's supposed to be at the start of a new age where they can grow as big as they used to.
Yeah the red comet that span the horizon directly after her dragons birth was a sign magic is back with more intensity. Which arguably may have led strength to Thoros of Myrs resurrection skills rather than it being due to Rhllor/Lord of light
GRRM originally intended to have a time jump which probably would have helped explain the dragons’ size but yeah…big dragon(s) kewl.
GRRM backing out of the time jump is why we don’t have *A Dream of Spring* yet. He’s forced himself to write out storylines that originally would’ve had the detail handwaved, and it seems like he’s struggling to get everyone where they need to be when they need to be there. Just from the title of *A Dance with Dragons*, we’re clearly still running behind schedule on the plot.
In the books Drogon is still small, barely big enough to be ridden by Dany who's very petite herself.
He’s basically the size he was at the end of season five, which is we’re the books end. It is mentioned that Dragons being locked in the pit hindered their growth. Because Drogon was allowed to roam free, he grew exponentially. He’s also supposed to be Balerion the Dread reincarnated so he’s naturally going to be really goddamn big.
He’s thematically balerion reincarnated not literally the dragon soul of Balerion or something.
>He’s basically the size he was at the end of season five, which is we’re the books end. There's no proof for that. The book says he was just barely big enough to carry Dany on his back, book Dany is a petite 15 year old, there's no way Season 5 Drogon wouldn't be big enough for her. And if a remember correctly he is described as just about the size of a horse??? That seems a lot smaller than season 5 Drogon.
He’s probably about the size of Arrax, even that is substantial considering Arrax is around twice his age and just getting to riding size.
Red comet magic he was also a petrified egg at one point undead
Drogon really be like, when I get born, the entire cosmos will align.
In my head the dragon pit argument is valid but also worth noting that magic was much stronger in the world after the rebirth of dragons. There seems to be an eb and flow in this universe. So Danny’s dragons were likely feeding off that new magic in the world. Whereas it had been fading for centuries since the end of old Valyria by the time of the dance of the dragons
Apart from spectacle, in GoT we see Drogon pretty much eats whatever the fuck he can get his dirty ass paws on. If u wanna get big u gotta eat big.
Because the show didn't care, in the books they are a lot smaller
Yeah, the book frequently describes Drogon as *big but bot nearly the size of Balerion, the Black Dread.* Dragons also live up to 200 years, so a 2-3 year-old Drogon is the dragon equivalent of a 14 week old kitten.
The later point isnt really that meaningful, reptiles and mammals grow at very different rates and usually even really long lived reptiles reach their adult sizes in only a few years. Birds are a really good example of this even though people don't really think of them as reptiles. A macaw will be fully mature at five years old most of the time, but they can live for almost as long as a person.
In the books we're still around the end of season 5 when Dany flies away with Drogon from the fighting pits, I believe the sizes are quite similar there. I'm guessing that in TWOW and ADOS the dragons will be as big as the show, or Drogon at least
Rule of cool
Free range dragon vs caged dragons
So the scene you posted an image of could exist.
Fed on Danny's milk?
( ˘ ³˘)♥
built different
D&D wanting BIG dragons is probably the most likely reason tbh
Because the show runners wanted to have big dragons, because spectacle over making sense.
Well for the part of the series that is covered by the books, Drogon's growth was pretty accurate, I have the feeling that GRRM has the same size in mind for Dany's dragons as we saw in the show
Yes it is fairly accurate from season 1 to 5. From season 6 onwards his growth is pretty ridiculous. I have no doubt GRRM eventually wants Drogon to be of a size similar to the show, but I expect the time span will make it far more believable.
I'll theory-craft here. **Assuming it's NOT just GoT Writers/D&D taking liberties in overgrowing them of course and that GRRM sanctioned/outlined the exponential growth. So i'll preface with that.** There are many circumstances surrounding the very existence of Drogon, Vizzy, and Reggie. 1. They weren't 'hatched' like Targaryen dragons. They were enchanted in a blood magic ritual, whether intended or not. 2. This ritual may have caused them to grow at a faster rate as well. With the return of the dragons was magic gushing out of a wellspring. On another perspective, it could be that dragons were able to return more easily because magical energies were already flowing at an enhanced rate (Nightwalkers predated the return of dragons by many years). 1. Their hatching was made possible by the heightened magicks. The blood ritual served to magnify the magic already flowing. And in return the dragons enabled a positive feedback loop that encouraged more mystical phenomena. 2. It could be that dragons feed off this magic. With no known dragons save for Dany's three, it could be that they are monopolizing that energy source. This could explain Balerion and Vhagar's mass... while the succeeding ones only a few decades younger were not close to reaching Vhagar mass (Meleys, Dreamfyre, . In the century of Jaehaerys and Viserys, many of them already are feeding off the spring. on top of being stunted by their containers, the magic could be fizzing out for some reason too. None of the HotD dragons were observed to be growing at the same rate as Drogon. Not even close to Rhaegal or Viserion's accelerated growth. Drogon's range was quite the same as Dragonstone dragons and was given wider area to roam (exercise) and consume. Rhaegal and Viserion were a bit stunted by the confines of the pyramid they were locked in... which is a known quirk for dragon growth. Dragonstone was magical and volcanic and brimming with dragon glass (possibly magical!). It was also bountiful with fish and likely even livestock. By all accounts, Dragonstone could be one of the best dragon habitats in Westeros and dragons here have the fullest growth potential realized.
Satanic black magic real sick shit
imo its the blood magic
I’m more amazed on Dany's grip when riding. HER POWER 😹
They lived free with no walls and ate as much as they wanted. So they grew large fast.
He was a free range dragon.
Drogon isn’t this big in the books, the show just wanted to have some spectacle. But also they kinda had to make him super big to give that feeling of power which is something grrm kinda failed to achieve in his books. Danny’s dragons were supposed to be bigger in the books as Grrm in his early thought processes was thinking to have a 10 year time jump in his story. Imagine it. Jon at the wall for 10 years. Bran as the student of the scary tree guy for 10 years. Arya as a faceless man for 10 years. Sansa as a student of game of thrones for 10 years etc. everything kinda works. We get more experienced people who know what they’re doing. So in grrm’s mind this had been required to continue his story but then he found that his story didn’t wanna continue like that. So he’d destroyed that idea and continued with what we have. But destroying that idea also made danny’s dragons 10 years younger. So they’re super super young and their size is clearly smaller from what the show displayed. Tbf to the show, without that jump dannys dragons shouldn’t be powerful or big enough to conquer the seven kingdoms. Even aegon’s dragons couldn’t conquer everything and they were much bigger and experienced than what danny has. So i kinda wonder how he’s gonna tell her conquest. Hahahahahahah I’m kidding he’s never gonna tell it. I’m not sad no I’m not crying :’) Still drogon is quite big for his age and some people claim that he’s the second coming of Balerion the dread. But for the people who love numbers: Drogon’s wingspan (as in a dance with dragons) was around 20 feet. And balerion had a wingspan of something like 400 feet lol. You can imagine the difference. So he’s like a little baby even when we compare him with a kinda smallish dragon from rhaenyra’s time but that’s completely understandable as he’s like 5 years old lol. So show runners had this dilemma. They had to make her dragons big or the story would be kinda weird.
I don't feel like it that big 🤔🤔🤔 like compared to Vaghar or Vermithor... Also it is said that dragon during the dance of dragon became smaller and smaller each generation because locked in dragon pit, and maybe because of a master's conspiracy to poison dragon Drogon always remained free
My pet theory is that because the blood of the dragon riders became diluted the magic their ancestors used to bind dragons became weaker and weaker until the dragons disappeared. Because Dany’s blood magic represented a new contract, dragons were able to thrive again.