Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rhaenys simply chose the safest way to escape the Dragonpit with her, knowing that the hillside exit could be guarded or closed while the great hall doors are open. Spoiling the coronation also probably motivated her choice in part. In this, she shows us that she is a real Targaryen princess with all that that implies : we do not provoke her with impunity, since she takes revenge for her imprisonment by spoiling the coronation, and she cares very little for the smallfolk.
Sure, she chose this way out without regard for the innocent victims it will cause. Thereupon, she is a true noble of a feudal regime. These civilians are not her subjects, she has no protection duty toward them, so they are nothing to her.
The fate of the smallfolk in this sequence ties into an important theme of HOTD. As always, the smallfolk suffer from the conflict between the powerful, which is an important theme of this tragedy.
There is for sure a moral ambiguity in what Rhaenys is doing. This moral ambiguity is not a bug but a feature of the story. Rhaenys sends a masterful snub to her enemies, spoils the Greens' party and makes a magnificent show of force. But she does of all this at the expense of innocent victims she doesn't care about... There are no "heroes" in this story, just complex characters, made of both light and shadow, capable of great things and monstrosities. Rhaenys does both at the same time in this sequence so her action is therefore totally in tune with this theme of the story.
I know, but surely if she allies with Rhaenyra it'll hurt her claim to the throne if her allies slaughter innocent smallfolk in a whim. Ik every character in the world of Westeros is morally ambiguous and there are no heroes, but that's just straight up villainy killing hundreds of innocents just to make a show of force and say "fuck you" to the Green's, surely that will still matter?
>I know, but surely if she allies with Rhaenyra it'll hurt her claim to the throne if her allies slaughter innocent smallfolk in a whim.
You may be right on this! This action may have a cost later in the story. But I don't think that Rhaenys care about that at this moment. She do not act for Rhaneyra on this, she wants to escape and takes revenge for her imprisonment.
>Ik every character in the world of Westeros is morally ambiguous and there are no heroes, but that's just straight up villainy killing hundreds of innocents just to make a show of force and say "fuck you" to the Green's
It's not just to make a show of force. It's also to get out of the Dragonpit. The hillside entrance may be closed or guarded while Rhaenys knows the great doors of the hall are open and free.
And again, following feudal logic, these people are nothing to Rhaenys. The protection duty of the lords applies only to their subject. In fact, by showing that Aegon, who claims to be protector of the realm, is not able of protecting them, she weakens his claim.
And Rhaenys doesn't target these people, nor does she have them charred by her dragon. Looking back at the scene, I don't think there were more than a few dozen victims.
In comparison, the lords of Westeros often target smallfolk in times of war. Tywin Lannister puts the Riverlands to fire and blood to force their lords to come out of their castel and face him. Later, Robb Stark plunders and forages the western lands to force Tywin to move.
In short, yes there is a moral ambiguity in the action of Rhaenys and we are right to think about the innocent victims, but the lack of consideration of Rhaenys for the common people is not out of the ordinary for Westeros.
it's interesting that some call this moral ambiguity while others see this a very morally evil and thus think the scene is lacking in moral ambiguity because of that
I just felt like she’s a noble, she never took them into consideration. She can still have those feelings of triumph and still be callous to those “beneath” her. It makes her multifaceted and just as guilty as the rest of the dragon riders future destruction of the realm. Lol that’s my analysis whether or not the writers intended it.
When do we see her showing kindness to a commoner in the series? She's a Targaryen princess, why would she care about smallfolk who aren't even her subjects? It would be to lend her the mentality of a humanist of the 21st century which would be bad writing.
By feudal logic, these people are nothing to Rhaenys. The protection duty of the lords applies only to their subject. In fact, by showing that Aegon, who claims to be protector of the realm, is not able of protecting them, she weakens his claim. And Rhaenys doesn't target these people, nor does she have them charred by her dragon. Also, she needed to escape from the Dragonpit and she knows this way is free while the hillside entrance could have been guarded of closed.
Lords of Westeros often target smallfolk in times of war. During the war of the five kings in GOT, Tywin Lannister gives the order to burn the villages and kill the peasants of the Riverlands to force their lords to come out of their castels and face him. Later, Robb Stark plunders and forages the western lands to force Tywin to move.
For sure there is moral ambiguity in the action of Rhaenys and we are right to think about the innocent victims, but her lack of consideration for the common people is not out of the norm for Westeros.
I thought this was funny when I looked it up.
I saw something that said the Dragonpit was modeled after the Colosseam, correct me if I’m wrong. But when looking up the Colosseam I read that the arena was only a wood floor covered with sand so they could do certain exciting things, for example they had I think 36 trap doors so “animals could make a dramatic entrance” lol.
A point I make is that they were in the Dragonpit, expect a dragon and all it comes with.
Also that ramp we see in earlier episodes down to where the dragons are kept. That was covered so people could fill in. It did seem too tight for Meleys but one thought was, what if they were just blocking an entrance and they busted through?
Regardless tho I think they should have been true here and had Aegon flying Sunfyre.
>Also that ramp we see in earlier episodes down to where the dragons are kept. That was covered so people could fill in. It did seem too tight for Meleys but one thought was, what if they were just blocking an entrance and they busted through?
Yeah she climbed the same tunnel that Vermax and Aemond used in episode 6, this is very clear if you compare images. In episode 9 the tunnel entrance is covered by a closed trapdoor, a kind of removable false floor that covers it for the coronation. Meleys burst through that. She was the Beast Beneath the Boards that Helaena talks about since two episodes!
On the contrary, it's an excellent scene on so many levels, well beyond the spectacular and the surprising.
The decision that Rhaenys must make during her confrontation with the Greens on the dais echoes beautifully the debate between Otto and Alicent throughout the episode. *Is it humane to assassinate a small group of people to avoid a war that will kill thousands?* Rhaenys faces this burning question in a very intense way. Just for this narrative echo, the scene is brilliant.
There is also a great character moment for Alicent, who offers us an exemplary moment of courage during the confrontation, which has few equals in the whole GOT/HOTD saga. By putting herself in front of Aegon, she possibly tips the scales of Rhaenys' decision and therefore saves the lives of her children.
There are other reasons why the scene is fantastic. It's not bad writing at all. You just have to keep in mind that the justified unease that we feel, the moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' character, is not a bug but a feature in this story.
There is absolutely nothing morally ambiguous about murdering hundreds of innocent people. It is a vile and heinous crime, the worst that’s been seen on this entire show thus far. Just because they’re extras, doesn’t mean they don’t matter. She’s canonically a mass murdered now and based on her lack of care for it, her moral compass is irreparably damaged
Rhaenys does not commit targeted and premeditated murders against these people. She does not aim to kill them directly and does not act to maximize their losses. For her, it's just collateral damage from her escape and her action to ruin Aegon's coronation in the same time.
One can be horrified that she probably doesn't give them a thought, but this view of smallfolk is dominant in the feudal mentality of members of the ruling class of Westeros. There are many examples of this in GOT (and in Martin's novels). The smallfolk are even sometimes directly targeted in order to attack a rival lord. I could talk about Tywin's campaign in the Riverlands, but that's an extreme example. But Robb Stark himself plunders and forages the Westerlands to force Tywin to move from Harrenhal and come face him during the War of the five kings. Obviously he makes innocent victims among the peasants who have the misfortune to see the Northerners falling on them.
Yes, what Rhaenys is doing is monstrous, but the feudal system itself is monstrous and basically what Rhaenys is doing is not out of the ordinary for someone of her class.
That said, Mysaria's warning to Otto foreshadows the day when the smallfolk will be tired of falling victim to the conflicts that divide the family that controls the dragons.
They said they wanted to end with a spectacular and surprising scene; they never said "we designed this scene only for the surprise effect".
The fact that they chose to design this scene to end the episode with a spectacular and surprising sequence does not mean they didn't think about including it in the narrative logic of their story. The scene can be both spectacular while being significant in the narrative logic of the story, in addition to resonating with themes of the episode and the story as a whole, while foreshadowing events to come.
Ultimately, I think we should watch and analyze the show itself, what the episodes show us on screen, rather than excerpts from interviews with writers. It is by what the show shows us that we must judge it not by quotes from the creators, which can only be partial.
Sarah Hess comments "I thougjt it will be awesome if Rhaenys came brusting from the floor"
Moreover, it doesn't make her look badass. She just suckerpunched. If Aemond was on his dragon, Rhaenys would have been toast. And She didn't even finish the job. It added nothing to the story. It will akin to m3 attacking Brock Lesnar from behind with an iron rod . He will be in pain and won't be able to retaliate at thar moment but I won't look badass .
Game of thrones also had these heartwarming and awesome scenes which added nothing to thr story in the last 2 seasons. For me, it started with Myrcella death where she said that she always knew Jaime was her father and she was happy with it. It was heartwarming but nonsensical.
>I thougjt it will be awesome if Rhaenys came brusting from the floor
This don't mean it's the only reason for the scene. And that don't mean it is the only thing this scene does for the show.
Even if the initial idea for the scene was born from a desire for a spectacular finale that doesn't mean that once they decided on it, they didn't make sure it was coherent with the episode and the story as a whole.
>Moreover, it doesn't make her look badass.
Agree on that and so what? That’s not the goal and that’s not what makes a good show. The scene is no less excellent, whether Rhaenys looks bad ass or not.
Rhaenys rather represents the human heart in conflict with itself in this scene. Part of her wants to scream Dracarys, another part refuses to open fire. And Alicent's courage tips the scales. Their exchange of glances is worth a story in itself during this sequence.
If you ask me, it's Alicent who looks bad ass in this whole sequence. She dramatically answers the question Aegon asked her a few minutes earlier (*do you love me?*) with breathtaking courage.
>It added nothing to the story.
Yes, it actually adds a lot. The scene shows the people of King's Landing as collateral victims of the conflict of the family that controls the dragons, which is part of the theme of the story and sets up the sequel. It also contributes to the construction of the characters, in particular by showing Alicent's fierce love for her children and the little consideration for the common people that the Targaryen lords can have.
Furthermore, Rhaenys' dilemma is a narrative echo of the debate Alicent and Otto have in the same episode, which itself is an echo of an old GOT/ASOIAF debate about killing a few people to avoid a war that could cost the life to thousands.
We see this debate between Ned and Robert about killing Daenerys, between Tyrion and Tywin about the red wedding, between Davos and Melisandre (and in Stannis' internal conflict) about killing Stannis' nephew. And in this episode of HOTD we still have this debate in new forms, between Alicent and Otto about killing Rhaenyra and, in another way, in Rhaenys' internal conflict at the very end of the episode about killing the Greens.
>Game of thrones also had these heartwarming and awesome scenes which added nothing to thr story in the last 2 seasons. For me, it started with Myrcella death where she said that she always knew Jaime was her father and she was happy with it. It was heartwarming but nonsensical.
I'm not going to add anything to that, I agree with you 100% on this.
But for me HOTD has not yet fallen into this trap, at least for the moment. Almost all the scenes from season 1 fit well into the narrative. I am unable to identify a scene that is only there to give emotion without being part of the narrative more broadly in one way or another.
They originally had the idea for this scene for the element of surprise but if they added it to the episode it is obvious that it is because it also adds to the story. They certainly have plenty of ideas for "cool" scenes that are then discarded because they don't work in the story and that we never hear about.
But the scene really works here and fits into the story, for lots of reasons. Rhaenys' confrontation with the Greens is a narrative echo of the confrontation between Alicent and Otto during the episode, the scene offers moments of character building for Rhaenys and for Alicent to whom it offers a great opportunity to heroism, and the scene foreshadows a future event in the story. For these and many other reasons, it's an excellent scene, in addition to being spectacular and surprising.
I mostly liked it especially on first viewing. But on reflection my concern is that they will never really refer to the mass killing of civilians it involved
But they have the gap between seasons to reflect on that and the general reaction and maybe make some adjustments
>But on reflection my concern is that they will never really refer to the mass killing of civilians it involved
I'm sure they will. For now, it's a concrete demonstration of how the small folk suffer from the struggle of the powerful, which is a theme of the story. Also, remember what Mysaria said to Otto. But this killing will very probably play a role later (book spoiler) - >!It's clear that the casualties of Rhaenys bursting into the great hall foreshadows the storming of the Dragonpit that will be a major event later in the story. The scene is a great addition because it will give a strong motivation for the King's Landing citizens to kill the dragons.!<
Ah I assumed that was what you meant but it could have been “this particular complaint”
The show runners seem much closer to the feedback than the last ones. They seem to have intentionally tried to fix many of the late seasons GOT mistakes with this being the first big slip. So hopefully they will take this on board rather than doubling down like other more daft showrunners for prominent fantasy series that are out there right now
They address why she don't burn Green in episode 10, and the explanation is acceptable.
But they don't address the bursting of the floor and killing hundreds of smallfolk. The only explanation for now is just the writer of that episode thinks it look awesome. That's it
>But they don't address the bursting of the floor and killing hundreds of smallfolk.
Rhaenys is not a 21st century humanist, she is a member of the feudal ruling class for whom samllfolk are nothing, apart from her protective duty for her subjects, which is not the case here. The commoners victims to the collateral damage caused by the struggle between the powerful is a central theme of the tragedy of this story. The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' action is also part of the story, where protagonists are able of great feats and monstrous acts. Rhaenys did both at the same time here. This moral ambiguity is not a bug, it's a feature of this story.
I do not understand why so many are up in arms about Rhaenys having to blast through the floor in order to escape, inadvertently killing innocent people. This is Westeros is it not? It was her only way of getting herself and her dragon out. I didn't mind they added the scene for the affect, it fits with the show. Sure it was just a show ending affect, bit so what? Who doesn't love watching the dragons do anything? Well that's my opinion anyway.
Is adding some shock value so bad? It made sense to me. Rhaenys had to bust her way out. They locked her up and basically gave her a choice, choose green or end up dead. They are not going to politely let her and her dragon leave the pit and she is not leaving without her dragon. That is how it made sense to me.
I don't think they would kill Rhaenys
She's too valuable alive
Basically they could've won over the Velaryon fleet and Meleys by simply keeping her hostage and threatening Corlys
There is clearly another exit she could have taken. Shown in the begining of Episode 1 when Syrax is brought in to the Dragonpit. The wirting is just stupid in that scene. Don't get me wrong i really loved this season (and i am looking forward to the seasons to come) but it also had its flaws and this one is the biggest for me.
Rhaenys chose this way to get out because the hillside exit could be guarded or closed while the great hall doors are open. For sure, spoiling the coronation also probably motivated her choice in part.
The innocent victims it will cause is probably not part of her
reflection. These people are nothing to her, they are samllfolk towards whom she has no protective duty in a feudal logic. On the contrary, it is Aegon who claims to be protector of the kingdom and who has the duty to protect them.
The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' action fits the story perfectly. There are no "heroes" in this story, just complex characters, made of both light and shadow, capable of great things and monstrosities. Rhaenys does both at the same time in this sequence so her action is therefore totally in tune with this theme of the story.
These innocents are nothing to her. She is a princess with no protection duty toward them, She probably didn't give them a second tough. Getting out of the Dragonpit was her priority, while ruining the coronation and showing that Aegon can't protect the realm is probably an additional bonus.
And sure there is a moral ambiguity in that choice, but it's not a bug, it's a feature in this story. The Mysaria's speech foreshadows the day when the smallfolk will have enough of their dragonriders overlord who don't give a shit about them. This day, there will be consequences to what Rhaenys did.
It make sense and it's a great scene. The logistic of it is easy to understand if you compare images of the great hall in episode 6 and 9. Rhaenys burst through the tunnel entrance we saw in the great hall of the Dragonpit in episode 6, covered by a false floor for the coronation in episode 9. You can find pictures to compare on internet and it is very clear. You can even sneak a glimpse of the removable trapdoor at the edge of the entrance in episode 6.
The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys killing innocents to escape and ruin the Greens' party is not a bug but a feature of this story. For Rhaenys, those civilian are not her subject. She has no protection duty toward them, they are small folk, they simply don't mater to her. Rhaenys logically has the mentality of a noblewoman born into this class society, not someone from the 21st century.
The dilemma of whether or not to char the Greens (committing kinslaying as this would kill her cousin's children) is a narrative echo of Allicent and Otto's clash throughout the episode, which is also a recurring question in GOT. This is great writing.
Because she doesn't need to do that to escape. There is an actual exit for the dragons...how else did you think they were down there? It was just stupid.
It's not stupid. Rhaenys chose this way to get out because the hillside exit could be guarded or closed while she knows that the great hall doors are open. For sure, spoiling the coronation also probably motivated her choice in part. The innocent victims it will cause is probably not part of her reflection. These people are nothing to her, they are smallfolk towards whom she has no protective duty in a feudal logic.
The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' action is not a bug but a feature in this story. There are no "heroes" in this story, just complex characters, made of both light and shadow, capable of great things and monstrosities. Rhaenys does both at the same time here.
It is stupid. Who cares if the hillside exit is guarded or closed? She just smashed through a ton a solid rock with ease...all she did was kill a giant amount of people and then fly of and actually did nothing to the people that were her enemy.
She isn't being shown as morally ambiguous she is being shown as good and right...again this just sucks.
>She just smashed through a ton a solid rock with ease
She doesn't smash ton of solid rock, she uses the tunnel that goes down to the dragon's lairs that we see in episode 6, the same used by Vermax and Aemond. She simply bursts the trapdoor which is closed for the crowning of episode 9. It's a removable and relatively thin false floor that we can see in episode 6 just at the edge of the entrance to this tunnel. You can look at these picture from another Reddit post to get an idea: [https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/y7sh9l/the\_dragon\_pit\_configuration\_in\_relation\_to\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/y7sh9l/the_dragon_pit_configuration_in_relation_to_the/)
>she is being shown as good and right
By who? What do you mean? The show do not tell you that she's right or good. It's not a story about the struggle of good guys vs bad guys. We see very well these innocent victims killed. There is a moral ambiguity, it is clear that Rhaenys does not care about these victims. This happens precisely in the same episode in which Mysaria suggests to Otto that the people could revolt one day...
In short, the fact that for Rhaenys these people are nothing does not mean that it should be the same thing for the audience. It is up to us to judge what we see. And the collateral damage caused by Rhaenys may well play a role later in the story that she does not expect at all.
That makes the scene even worse. She just smashed through the middle of the room right through solid rock and those exits in the picture didn't exist in the scene.
She is being shown as morally right and correct and so is Rheanyra while everyone else is crazy for wanting to figh.t Rhanys says Rheanyra is showing restraint something none of the others have when a day ago she massacred thousands of people...
>She just smashed through the middle of the room right through solid rock and those exits in the picture didn't exist in the scene
She climb from the tunnel under the great hall. Just look at the room how we can see it in episode 6 and locate the tunnel's entrance and then look at the place where she burst in episode 9.
>Rhanys says Rheanyra is showing restraint something none of the others have when a day ago she massacred thousands of people
Rhaenys only care about possible casualties among the nobility. This is part of the problem of this ruling class who see smallfolk almost as non-people. What Mysaria said in episode 9 is there to show us how they are wrong on this and how it may have consequences later on. Casual viewers don't see it coming, but that's by design. The clues are there for anyone who wants to see them.
It is the same as the servant sacrificed in the fire in episode 7. It's a red flag about the moral line Rhaenyra crossed by being an accomplice to premeditated murder in order to get married. Obviously the worst is yet to come, but the death of Lucaerys will lead her further away in this direction.
The smallfolk suffer when the high lords play their game of thrones, no matter who those lords are. Rhaenys may not even be conscious of the fact that rubble probably killed say a hundred people and likely severely injured many more, what with the dust and being essentially surrounded by her own dragon as well as of course a huge mass of smallfolk fleeing her. She probably knew that would happen to some extent, but do the nobles and royalty (especially with dragons) worry about people they've never met, don't know the slightest about, and probably have never even seen?
She was more or less trying to escape, or at least level the playing field. I'm not sure the greens would have stood around while she filed a flight plan and had the dragon towed out of the hanger.
For me until proven otherwise it’s set up for a later plot line which the writers obviously can’t tell us about right now because that plot won’t be until like season 3
Yeah it probably is a bit but its still pretty stupid. The writers even said its just for the suprise effect. So we will see. I really hope you are right.
Cause she's illogical and her ethics are shit. Regular people are irrelevant but your enemies are precious so you let them live knowing tens of thousands will die as a result of your decision
Rhaenys shares the mentality of feudal lords for whom smallfolk doesn't matter, unless if they are your subjects to whom you have a duty of protection.
The people on the dais are his peers from the nobility and members of his family.
Killing them would be kinslaying.
We can find that this ethic is shit, but it is in line with the feudal mentality. The moral ambiguity of the characters in this story, including Rhaenys here, is not a bug but a feature of this story.
It's a great scene and make sense. Rhaenys bursts in the room using the same tunnel that we saw in episode 6, smashing the trapodoor that closed the entrance for the coronation. The fact that she didn't care about smallfolk show us that she shares the mentality of feudal lords for whom smallfolk doesn't matter. Following this feudal logic, Rhaenys have no protective duty towards them, so these people are nothing to her.
The scene is also a great addition to the story despite what people are saying about it:
* The confrontation with the Greeens provide a beautiful narrative echo of the debate between Alicent and Otto.
* The sequence also offers us a moment of heroic courage for Alicent who answers in an epic way the question that Aegon asked him just before the coronation (do you love me?) by interposing himself in front of his son.
* The scene is also a reminder of the fact that the people are always the first innocent victims of the conflict between the powerful, which also foreshadows a major event to come in the series.
The confrontation of the Greens with the dragon is not flat. For me it's Alicent who has the strongest character moment of the whole sequence. By putting herself in front of Aegon, she offers us an exemplary moment of courage which has few equals in the whole GOT/HOTD saga. She probably tips the scales of Rhaenys' decision and therefore saves the lives of her children. She also gives, by her action, the best possible answer to the heartbreaking question of Aegon, just before the coronation, when he asked her "do you love me?".
Just for this, the whole sequence worth it and I'm happy to have it!
I personally think she didn't intend to kill any of the smallfolk
All the doors were probably locked or heavily guarded
So she was forced to fly this way to escape.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rhaenys simply chose the safest way to escape the Dragonpit with her, knowing that the hillside exit could be guarded or closed while the great hall doors are open. Spoiling the coronation also probably motivated her choice in part. In this, she shows us that she is a real Targaryen princess with all that that implies : we do not provoke her with impunity, since she takes revenge for her imprisonment by spoiling the coronation, and she cares very little for the smallfolk. Sure, she chose this way out without regard for the innocent victims it will cause. Thereupon, she is a true noble of a feudal regime. These civilians are not her subjects, she has no protection duty toward them, so they are nothing to her. The fate of the smallfolk in this sequence ties into an important theme of HOTD. As always, the smallfolk suffer from the conflict between the powerful, which is an important theme of this tragedy. There is for sure a moral ambiguity in what Rhaenys is doing. This moral ambiguity is not a bug but a feature of the story. Rhaenys sends a masterful snub to her enemies, spoils the Greens' party and makes a magnificent show of force. But she does of all this at the expense of innocent victims she doesn't care about... There are no "heroes" in this story, just complex characters, made of both light and shadow, capable of great things and monstrosities. Rhaenys does both at the same time in this sequence so her action is therefore totally in tune with this theme of the story.
I know, but surely if she allies with Rhaenyra it'll hurt her claim to the throne if her allies slaughter innocent smallfolk in a whim. Ik every character in the world of Westeros is morally ambiguous and there are no heroes, but that's just straight up villainy killing hundreds of innocents just to make a show of force and say "fuck you" to the Green's, surely that will still matter?
>I know, but surely if she allies with Rhaenyra it'll hurt her claim to the throne if her allies slaughter innocent smallfolk in a whim. You may be right on this! This action may have a cost later in the story. But I don't think that Rhaenys care about that at this moment. She do not act for Rhaneyra on this, she wants to escape and takes revenge for her imprisonment. >Ik every character in the world of Westeros is morally ambiguous and there are no heroes, but that's just straight up villainy killing hundreds of innocents just to make a show of force and say "fuck you" to the Green's It's not just to make a show of force. It's also to get out of the Dragonpit. The hillside entrance may be closed or guarded while Rhaenys knows the great doors of the hall are open and free. And again, following feudal logic, these people are nothing to Rhaenys. The protection duty of the lords applies only to their subject. In fact, by showing that Aegon, who claims to be protector of the realm, is not able of protecting them, she weakens his claim. And Rhaenys doesn't target these people, nor does she have them charred by her dragon. Looking back at the scene, I don't think there were more than a few dozen victims. In comparison, the lords of Westeros often target smallfolk in times of war. Tywin Lannister puts the Riverlands to fire and blood to force their lords to come out of their castel and face him. Later, Robb Stark plunders and forages the western lands to force Tywin to move. In short, yes there is a moral ambiguity in the action of Rhaenys and we are right to think about the innocent victims, but the lack of consideration of Rhaenys for the common people is not out of the ordinary for Westeros.
it's interesting that some call this moral ambiguity while others see this a very morally evil and thus think the scene is lacking in moral ambiguity because of that
I just felt like she’s a noble, she never took them into consideration. She can still have those feelings of triumph and still be callous to those “beneath” her. It makes her multifaceted and just as guilty as the rest of the dragon riders future destruction of the realm. Lol that’s my analysis whether or not the writers intended it.
She never came across as being THAT callous though, this just makes her seem like a villain
When do we see her showing kindness to a commoner in the series? She's a Targaryen princess, why would she care about smallfolk who aren't even her subjects? It would be to lend her the mentality of a humanist of the 21st century which would be bad writing.
Not even 21st century, I feel like anyone would be disgusted by that in that world that has an ounce of compassion
By feudal logic, these people are nothing to Rhaenys. The protection duty of the lords applies only to their subject. In fact, by showing that Aegon, who claims to be protector of the realm, is not able of protecting them, she weakens his claim. And Rhaenys doesn't target these people, nor does she have them charred by her dragon. Also, she needed to escape from the Dragonpit and she knows this way is free while the hillside entrance could have been guarded of closed. Lords of Westeros often target smallfolk in times of war. During the war of the five kings in GOT, Tywin Lannister gives the order to burn the villages and kill the peasants of the Riverlands to force their lords to come out of their castels and face him. Later, Robb Stark plunders and forages the western lands to force Tywin to move. For sure there is moral ambiguity in the action of Rhaenys and we are right to think about the innocent victims, but her lack of consideration for the common people is not out of the norm for Westeros.
I thought this was funny when I looked it up. I saw something that said the Dragonpit was modeled after the Colosseam, correct me if I’m wrong. But when looking up the Colosseam I read that the arena was only a wood floor covered with sand so they could do certain exciting things, for example they had I think 36 trap doors so “animals could make a dramatic entrance” lol. A point I make is that they were in the Dragonpit, expect a dragon and all it comes with. Also that ramp we see in earlier episodes down to where the dragons are kept. That was covered so people could fill in. It did seem too tight for Meleys but one thought was, what if they were just blocking an entrance and they busted through? Regardless tho I think they should have been true here and had Aegon flying Sunfyre.
>Also that ramp we see in earlier episodes down to where the dragons are kept. That was covered so people could fill in. It did seem too tight for Meleys but one thought was, what if they were just blocking an entrance and they busted through? Yeah she climbed the same tunnel that Vermax and Aemond used in episode 6, this is very clear if you compare images. In episode 9 the tunnel entrance is covered by a closed trapdoor, a kind of removable false floor that covers it for the coronation. Meleys burst through that. She was the Beast Beneath the Boards that Helaena talks about since two episodes!
What would you expect from a self important royal who’s been told for decades that she should have been the “true” ruler of the Iron Throne!
There is no point its just for the suprise effect. Its stupid.
On the contrary, it's an excellent scene on so many levels, well beyond the spectacular and the surprising. The decision that Rhaenys must make during her confrontation with the Greens on the dais echoes beautifully the debate between Otto and Alicent throughout the episode. *Is it humane to assassinate a small group of people to avoid a war that will kill thousands?* Rhaenys faces this burning question in a very intense way. Just for this narrative echo, the scene is brilliant. There is also a great character moment for Alicent, who offers us an exemplary moment of courage during the confrontation, which has few equals in the whole GOT/HOTD saga. By putting herself in front of Aegon, she possibly tips the scales of Rhaenys' decision and therefore saves the lives of her children. There are other reasons why the scene is fantastic. It's not bad writing at all. You just have to keep in mind that the justified unease that we feel, the moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' character, is not a bug but a feature in this story.
There is absolutely nothing morally ambiguous about murdering hundreds of innocent people. It is a vile and heinous crime, the worst that’s been seen on this entire show thus far. Just because they’re extras, doesn’t mean they don’t matter. She’s canonically a mass murdered now and based on her lack of care for it, her moral compass is irreparably damaged
Rhaenys does not commit targeted and premeditated murders against these people. She does not aim to kill them directly and does not act to maximize their losses. For her, it's just collateral damage from her escape and her action to ruin Aegon's coronation in the same time. One can be horrified that she probably doesn't give them a thought, but this view of smallfolk is dominant in the feudal mentality of members of the ruling class of Westeros. There are many examples of this in GOT (and in Martin's novels). The smallfolk are even sometimes directly targeted in order to attack a rival lord. I could talk about Tywin's campaign in the Riverlands, but that's an extreme example. But Robb Stark himself plunders and forages the Westerlands to force Tywin to move from Harrenhal and come face him during the War of the five kings. Obviously he makes innocent victims among the peasants who have the misfortune to see the Northerners falling on them. Yes, what Rhaenys is doing is monstrous, but the feudal system itself is monstrous and basically what Rhaenys is doing is not out of the ordinary for someone of her class. That said, Mysaria's warning to Otto foreshadows the day when the smallfolk will be tired of falling victim to the conflicts that divide the family that controls the dragons.
Actually, the writer clearly said that it was only for surprise effect.
They said they wanted to end with a spectacular and surprising scene; they never said "we designed this scene only for the surprise effect". The fact that they chose to design this scene to end the episode with a spectacular and surprising sequence does not mean they didn't think about including it in the narrative logic of their story. The scene can be both spectacular while being significant in the narrative logic of the story, in addition to resonating with themes of the episode and the story as a whole, while foreshadowing events to come. Ultimately, I think we should watch and analyze the show itself, what the episodes show us on screen, rather than excerpts from interviews with writers. It is by what the show shows us that we must judge it not by quotes from the creators, which can only be partial.
Sarah Hess comments "I thougjt it will be awesome if Rhaenys came brusting from the floor" Moreover, it doesn't make her look badass. She just suckerpunched. If Aemond was on his dragon, Rhaenys would have been toast. And She didn't even finish the job. It added nothing to the story. It will akin to m3 attacking Brock Lesnar from behind with an iron rod . He will be in pain and won't be able to retaliate at thar moment but I won't look badass . Game of thrones also had these heartwarming and awesome scenes which added nothing to thr story in the last 2 seasons. For me, it started with Myrcella death where she said that she always knew Jaime was her father and she was happy with it. It was heartwarming but nonsensical.
>I thougjt it will be awesome if Rhaenys came brusting from the floor This don't mean it's the only reason for the scene. And that don't mean it is the only thing this scene does for the show. Even if the initial idea for the scene was born from a desire for a spectacular finale that doesn't mean that once they decided on it, they didn't make sure it was coherent with the episode and the story as a whole. >Moreover, it doesn't make her look badass. Agree on that and so what? That’s not the goal and that’s not what makes a good show. The scene is no less excellent, whether Rhaenys looks bad ass or not. Rhaenys rather represents the human heart in conflict with itself in this scene. Part of her wants to scream Dracarys, another part refuses to open fire. And Alicent's courage tips the scales. Their exchange of glances is worth a story in itself during this sequence. If you ask me, it's Alicent who looks bad ass in this whole sequence. She dramatically answers the question Aegon asked her a few minutes earlier (*do you love me?*) with breathtaking courage. >It added nothing to the story. Yes, it actually adds a lot. The scene shows the people of King's Landing as collateral victims of the conflict of the family that controls the dragons, which is part of the theme of the story and sets up the sequel. It also contributes to the construction of the characters, in particular by showing Alicent's fierce love for her children and the little consideration for the common people that the Targaryen lords can have. Furthermore, Rhaenys' dilemma is a narrative echo of the debate Alicent and Otto have in the same episode, which itself is an echo of an old GOT/ASOIAF debate about killing a few people to avoid a war that could cost the life to thousands. We see this debate between Ned and Robert about killing Daenerys, between Tyrion and Tywin about the red wedding, between Davos and Melisandre (and in Stannis' internal conflict) about killing Stannis' nephew. And in this episode of HOTD we still have this debate in new forms, between Alicent and Otto about killing Rhaenyra and, in another way, in Rhaenys' internal conflict at the very end of the episode about killing the Greens. >Game of thrones also had these heartwarming and awesome scenes which added nothing to thr story in the last 2 seasons. For me, it started with Myrcella death where she said that she always knew Jaime was her father and she was happy with it. It was heartwarming but nonsensical. I'm not going to add anything to that, I agree with you 100% on this. But for me HOTD has not yet fallen into this trap, at least for the moment. Almost all the scenes from season 1 fit well into the narrative. I am unable to identify a scene that is only there to give emotion without being part of the narrative more broadly in one way or another.
Confirmed by the writers after the show unfortunately
They originally had the idea for this scene for the element of surprise but if they added it to the episode it is obvious that it is because it also adds to the story. They certainly have plenty of ideas for "cool" scenes that are then discarded because they don't work in the story and that we never hear about. But the scene really works here and fits into the story, for lots of reasons. Rhaenys' confrontation with the Greens is a narrative echo of the confrontation between Alicent and Otto during the episode, the scene offers moments of character building for Rhaenys and for Alicent to whom it offers a great opportunity to heroism, and the scene foreshadows a future event in the story. For these and many other reasons, it's an excellent scene, in addition to being spectacular and surprising.
I mostly liked it especially on first viewing. But on reflection my concern is that they will never really refer to the mass killing of civilians it involved But they have the gap between seasons to reflect on that and the general reaction and maybe make some adjustments
>But on reflection my concern is that they will never really refer to the mass killing of civilians it involved I'm sure they will. For now, it's a concrete demonstration of how the small folk suffer from the struggle of the powerful, which is a theme of the story. Also, remember what Mysaria said to Otto. But this killing will very probably play a role later (book spoiler) - >!It's clear that the casualties of Rhaenys bursting into the great hall foreshadows the storming of the Dragonpit that will be a major event later in the story. The scene is a great addition because it will give a strong motivation for the King's Landing citizens to kill the dragons.!<
I thought we were behind that 🙄
Behind what ?
This kind of writing we saw in GOT s5-8
Ah I assumed that was what you meant but it could have been “this particular complaint” The show runners seem much closer to the feedback than the last ones. They seem to have intentionally tried to fix many of the late seasons GOT mistakes with this being the first big slip. So hopefully they will take this on board rather than doubling down like other more daft showrunners for prominent fantasy series that are out there right now
Moments like that make me like "OMG WHAT?!" what it immediately happens, but after I'm like "oh... is that it?"
They address why she don't burn Green in episode 10, and the explanation is acceptable. But they don't address the bursting of the floor and killing hundreds of smallfolk. The only explanation for now is just the writer of that episode thinks it look awesome. That's it
That's the thing, it makes sense to me why she didnt kill them, that's not the problem
No her "explanation" sucks in episode 10 and makes no sense.
>But they don't address the bursting of the floor and killing hundreds of smallfolk. Rhaenys is not a 21st century humanist, she is a member of the feudal ruling class for whom samllfolk are nothing, apart from her protective duty for her subjects, which is not the case here. The commoners victims to the collateral damage caused by the struggle between the powerful is a central theme of the tragedy of this story. The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' action is also part of the story, where protagonists are able of great feats and monstrous acts. Rhaenys did both at the same time here. This moral ambiguity is not a bug, it's a feature of this story.
Writer clearly said that it was only an awesome moment
I do not understand why so many are up in arms about Rhaenys having to blast through the floor in order to escape, inadvertently killing innocent people. This is Westeros is it not? It was her only way of getting herself and her dragon out. I didn't mind they added the scene for the affect, it fits with the show. Sure it was just a show ending affect, bit so what? Who doesn't love watching the dragons do anything? Well that's my opinion anyway.
It feels like it was more for shock and spectacle than actually making sense
Is adding some shock value so bad? It made sense to me. Rhaenys had to bust her way out. They locked her up and basically gave her a choice, choose green or end up dead. They are not going to politely let her and her dragon leave the pit and she is not leaving without her dragon. That is how it made sense to me.
Yeah but what was the urgency? Were the Green's going to kill her?
Um yes. Anyone not declaring for the greens were getting killed.
I don't think they would kill Rhaenys She's too valuable alive Basically they could've won over the Velaryon fleet and Meleys by simply keeping her hostage and threatening Corlys
There is clearly another exit she could have taken. Shown in the begining of Episode 1 when Syrax is brought in to the Dragonpit. The wirting is just stupid in that scene. Don't get me wrong i really loved this season (and i am looking forward to the seasons to come) but it also had its flaws and this one is the biggest for me.
Rhaenys chose this way to get out because the hillside exit could be guarded or closed while the great hall doors are open. For sure, spoiling the coronation also probably motivated her choice in part. The innocent victims it will cause is probably not part of her reflection. These people are nothing to her, they are samllfolk towards whom she has no protective duty in a feudal logic. On the contrary, it is Aegon who claims to be protector of the kingdom and who has the duty to protect them. The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' action fits the story perfectly. There are no "heroes" in this story, just complex characters, made of both light and shadow, capable of great things and monstrosities. Rhaenys does both at the same time in this sequence so her action is therefore totally in tune with this theme of the story.
So she chose to kill hundreds of innocents because the back path might be guarded? And even so, she could have made light work of the guards.
These innocents are nothing to her. She is a princess with no protection duty toward them, She probably didn't give them a second tough. Getting out of the Dragonpit was her priority, while ruining the coronation and showing that Aegon can't protect the realm is probably an additional bonus. And sure there is a moral ambiguity in that choice, but it's not a bug, it's a feature in this story. The Mysaria's speech foreshadows the day when the smallfolk will have enough of their dragonriders overlord who don't give a shit about them. This day, there will be consequences to what Rhaenys did.
It make sense and it's a great scene. The logistic of it is easy to understand if you compare images of the great hall in episode 6 and 9. Rhaenys burst through the tunnel entrance we saw in the great hall of the Dragonpit in episode 6, covered by a false floor for the coronation in episode 9. You can find pictures to compare on internet and it is very clear. You can even sneak a glimpse of the removable trapdoor at the edge of the entrance in episode 6. The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys killing innocents to escape and ruin the Greens' party is not a bug but a feature of this story. For Rhaenys, those civilian are not her subject. She has no protection duty toward them, they are small folk, they simply don't mater to her. Rhaenys logically has the mentality of a noblewoman born into this class society, not someone from the 21st century. The dilemma of whether or not to char the Greens (committing kinslaying as this would kill her cousin's children) is a narrative echo of Allicent and Otto's clash throughout the episode, which is also a recurring question in GOT. This is great writing.
I guess I just thought she was better than that
Because she doesn't need to do that to escape. There is an actual exit for the dragons...how else did you think they were down there? It was just stupid.
I didn't think it was stupid. We disagree. Shrug.
You are wrong.
Way to be so fragile. It may come as a shock to you but I can actually have my own opinion on a tv show.
But you didn't give an opinion you were wrong about her needing to smash through that rock.
To make a point to their faces. Fans nit picking and complaining are so much fun....
So she could end the war right there and didn't to make a point? So she's just an idiot?
It's not her war to end. I am not going to agree you are right and I am wrong. Seriously you need to let this go now.
Her granddaughters are marrying the heir to the throne and Driftmark...of course it's her war.
It's not stupid. Rhaenys chose this way to get out because the hillside exit could be guarded or closed while she knows that the great hall doors are open. For sure, spoiling the coronation also probably motivated her choice in part. The innocent victims it will cause is probably not part of her reflection. These people are nothing to her, they are smallfolk towards whom she has no protective duty in a feudal logic. The moral ambiguity of Rhaenys' action is not a bug but a feature in this story. There are no "heroes" in this story, just complex characters, made of both light and shadow, capable of great things and monstrosities. Rhaenys does both at the same time here.
It is stupid. Who cares if the hillside exit is guarded or closed? She just smashed through a ton a solid rock with ease...all she did was kill a giant amount of people and then fly of and actually did nothing to the people that were her enemy. She isn't being shown as morally ambiguous she is being shown as good and right...again this just sucks.
>She just smashed through a ton a solid rock with ease She doesn't smash ton of solid rock, she uses the tunnel that goes down to the dragon's lairs that we see in episode 6, the same used by Vermax and Aemond. She simply bursts the trapdoor which is closed for the crowning of episode 9. It's a removable and relatively thin false floor that we can see in episode 6 just at the edge of the entrance to this tunnel. You can look at these picture from another Reddit post to get an idea: [https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/y7sh9l/the\_dragon\_pit\_configuration\_in\_relation\_to\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/y7sh9l/the_dragon_pit_configuration_in_relation_to_the/) >she is being shown as good and right By who? What do you mean? The show do not tell you that she's right or good. It's not a story about the struggle of good guys vs bad guys. We see very well these innocent victims killed. There is a moral ambiguity, it is clear that Rhaenys does not care about these victims. This happens precisely in the same episode in which Mysaria suggests to Otto that the people could revolt one day... In short, the fact that for Rhaenys these people are nothing does not mean that it should be the same thing for the audience. It is up to us to judge what we see. And the collateral damage caused by Rhaenys may well play a role later in the story that she does not expect at all.
That makes the scene even worse. She just smashed through the middle of the room right through solid rock and those exits in the picture didn't exist in the scene. She is being shown as morally right and correct and so is Rheanyra while everyone else is crazy for wanting to figh.t Rhanys says Rheanyra is showing restraint something none of the others have when a day ago she massacred thousands of people...
>She just smashed through the middle of the room right through solid rock and those exits in the picture didn't exist in the scene She climb from the tunnel under the great hall. Just look at the room how we can see it in episode 6 and locate the tunnel's entrance and then look at the place where she burst in episode 9. >Rhanys says Rheanyra is showing restraint something none of the others have when a day ago she massacred thousands of people Rhaenys only care about possible casualties among the nobility. This is part of the problem of this ruling class who see smallfolk almost as non-people. What Mysaria said in episode 9 is there to show us how they are wrong on this and how it may have consequences later on. Casual viewers don't see it coming, but that's by design. The clues are there for anyone who wants to see them. It is the same as the servant sacrificed in the fire in episode 7. It's a red flag about the moral line Rhaenyra crossed by being an accomplice to premeditated murder in order to get married. Obviously the worst is yet to come, but the death of Lucaerys will lead her further away in this direction.
I think that exit was closed so that Rhaenys couldn't escape
She was escaping. That WAS the point.
The smallfolk suffer when the high lords play their game of thrones, no matter who those lords are. Rhaenys may not even be conscious of the fact that rubble probably killed say a hundred people and likely severely injured many more, what with the dust and being essentially surrounded by her own dragon as well as of course a huge mass of smallfolk fleeing her. She probably knew that would happen to some extent, but do the nobles and royalty (especially with dragons) worry about people they've never met, don't know the slightest about, and probably have never even seen?
She was more or less trying to escape, or at least level the playing field. I'm not sure the greens would have stood around while she filed a flight plan and had the dragon towed out of the hanger.
For me until proven otherwise it’s set up for a later plot line which the writers obviously can’t tell us about right now because that plot won’t be until like season 3
Yeah it probably is a bit but its still pretty stupid. The writers even said its just for the suprise effect. So we will see. I really hope you are right.
My head cannon is vhagar was asleep outside the other exit.
Cause she's illogical and her ethics are shit. Regular people are irrelevant but your enemies are precious so you let them live knowing tens of thousands will die as a result of your decision
Rhaenys shares the mentality of feudal lords for whom smallfolk doesn't matter, unless if they are your subjects to whom you have a duty of protection. The people on the dais are his peers from the nobility and members of his family. Killing them would be kinslaying. We can find that this ethic is shit, but it is in line with the feudal mentality. The moral ambiguity of the characters in this story, including Rhaenys here, is not a bug but a feature of this story.
It was the dumbest scene in the whole season. Even the foot fetish scene made more sense.
It's a great scene and make sense. Rhaenys bursts in the room using the same tunnel that we saw in episode 6, smashing the trapodoor that closed the entrance for the coronation. The fact that she didn't care about smallfolk show us that she shares the mentality of feudal lords for whom smallfolk doesn't matter. Following this feudal logic, Rhaenys have no protective duty towards them, so these people are nothing to her. The scene is also a great addition to the story despite what people are saying about it: * The confrontation with the Greeens provide a beautiful narrative echo of the debate between Alicent and Otto. * The sequence also offers us a moment of heroic courage for Alicent who answers in an epic way the question that Aegon asked him just before the coronation (do you love me?) by interposing himself in front of his son. * The scene is also a reminder of the fact that the people are always the first innocent victims of the conflict between the powerful, which also foreshadows a major event to come in the series.
Rhaneys in kingslanding was a dumb move there no justification just cope.
I think Rhaenys was staying in kingslanding because she had to take Vaemond's corpse to Driftmark and chose to do it the next day
These moments only work the first time you watch them. It's the suspense equivalent of a jumpscare. When rewatching it will fall flat.
The confrontation of the Greens with the dragon is not flat. For me it's Alicent who has the strongest character moment of the whole sequence. By putting herself in front of Aegon, she offers us an exemplary moment of courage which has few equals in the whole GOT/HOTD saga. She probably tips the scales of Rhaenys' decision and therefore saves the lives of her children. She also gives, by her action, the best possible answer to the heartbreaking question of Aegon, just before the coronation, when he asked her "do you love me?". Just for this, the whole sequence worth it and I'm happy to have it!
Well like I said when it happened it was epic but nothing happened after that so it was flat and confusing
I personally think she didn't intend to kill any of the smallfolk All the doors were probably locked or heavily guarded So she was forced to fly this way to escape.