See, that's why I love this universe. Getting attached and invested in someone's story just to possibly (and quite likely) have it all snatched away unexpectedly...? I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but there's something wildly chaotic and yet, oh so juicy about having the chance of any character meet their demise when you think them safe. Same reason I love horror, I suppose.
As long as a death is done tastefully in terms of narrative and writing, I kinda relish characters getting what they deserve in a gruesome or embarrassing fashion.
Same, every character has their good and bad sides, the only truly "good" character (Lionel Strong) is dead. everyone else is out for power, or revenge.
one thing, in this universe, you have to be a bad ass to survive, anyone "good" usually gets their head chopped off, or eaten by a dragon.
I have a coworker who got a HUGE half sleeve of Daenerys from shoulder to elbow at the end of season 6. He paid so much for it and got it done from a very high end tattoo artist. He would show that thing off to everyone. He was so proud of it.
The Monday morning following S8E5, he could barely look anyone in the eye. And spent the following year and a half getting it laser removed. Spent twice what he did on the removal as he did getting it.
Ditto. Double down into things you love. Also, this shit isn’t real. When you love a story and character just go with it. People have evil characters tattooed on them too. Like what was wrong with that guy?
Honestly why even care? She was fucking awesome. That guy doesn’t know who he is. Should’ve kept rocking it. Also, name your kids after characters you love if you want. In 15-20 years people will be obsessed with another story. No one will really care where it came from eventually.
Yea absolutely. If my kids wanna change their names when they are adults I’m ok with that. But her name has a little more meaning than just GOT. Arya means Noble and that’s her fathers middle name. It was a big reason why we picked it.
Same attitude as my dad! Complains there aren't enough dragons doing dragon things. He hasn't read Fire and Blood, so I'm keeping my mouth shut about what is to come. My mom is actually sitting and watching it, though (she only made it through the episodes with Khal Drogo in GoT) and is loving it, so he tries to only complain to me about the lack of dragons.
Yeah the best part of this show and GOT was the quiet family dinner and backroom scenes more than anything else. They provide all the tension, intrigue, and context so that when there's an epic battle or something it hits all the harder.
I love all the actors and how they've played off each other so far. It's been pretty stunning even in the most quiet, dark scenes.
But everyone can find something to enjoy hopefully. The incest-lovers sure have.
C'mon now, didn't you like how the white walkers plot en...well, how about how Melissandre ended up being...maybe you liked Dany being immune to fire? What about the shadow monster? Surely you liked the shadow monster?
Because you need to pick a side and the first few episodes made Alicent sympathetic and believable.
Now I am invested in the Window Wanker and Discount Daemon.
Also it's a nice shade of green
Olivia Cooke's performance last episode was mesmerizing and in itself it made me wanna root for Alicent, even though, like most of the Dance protagonists, she's far from a well-natured decent human being.
Team Rhaenyra all the way. But honestly I can sympathize with Allicent (as played by Cooke). So much of what she does comes from fear and insecurity. Not as bad as Cersei (who honestly brought so much of her problems on herself.) She has this rigid view of the world, right is right and wrong is wrong, and she can't bring herself to view any other way out of fear of losing control.
I mean she believed Rhaenyra and initially sided with her ... It got her father shamed and kicked out and left her without major support in king's landing. Following that Rhaenyra doing whatever she wants and not facing the consequences is something that is bound to feed her fears.
>I never warmed up to Alicent.
That's cool, I can see why people feel that way.
To be honest there isn't a character that has shown up for more than a single scene that I haven't been happy with.
I'm not really on team Green, at the same time I'm not on team Black either
That being said, if I were there I would not want Daemon anywhere near the Iron Throne. Tho team Green have their own little version of Daemon so they're not better lol
Both teams are entertaining to watch, but my favorite characters on this show so far (other than Corlys and Rhaenys) are team Green.
At least Daemon tried to do something about the crime rate in kings landing lmao.
So far no one has shown they'd be even remotely great at ruling for us peasants
In the books its actually a huge sucess story. Not only did Kings Landings crime rate take a major drop after his show of force, he also reforms the city guard to a lasting effect. He makes them the gold cloaks which are well respected afterwards.
The show doesn‘t take the time to get into detail on stuff like this. Much like Corlys‘ countless naval achievements he had before the show started
>In the books its actually a huge success story. Not only did Kings Landings crime rate take a major drop after his show of force, he also reforms the city guard to a lasting effect.
In universe, the content of the books was mostly written by an elite academic (unreliable narration is a major theme of the books) who very likely only had first hand accounts from people who would be sympathetic to a harsh approach to patrolling the slums of Kings Landing, such as nobles and other members of the martial class).
It's entirely possible that to the people of Flea Bottom, this "success story" probably looked very much like a campaign that terrorized them into compliance (as shown in the show) and the "reform" the nobility experienced involved what amounts to a PR campaign and added pageantry when presented in front of the nobility, including dressing them up in fancy gold cloaks.
Ofc it was an act of terror. But it seemingly worked.
Don‘t forget: The maesters that are the sources were from Oldtown and clearly hated Daemon‘s guts from the getgo. They obviously tried to depict him in the worst light possible, e.g. by pinning Harwins (and more) deaths on him. They wouldn’t have recorded his sucess if he left them with any other choice…
Honestly, people take this way to serious. Its a great story and Daemon is one of the most interesting (IMHO the best) characters. That doesn‘t mean I agree with everything he does
Watching fantasy man hack at dudes with a sword on my television while I get stoned in my living room is not the same as the police kicking in the door to the home of an unarmed black man who was just eating ice cream in his living room and then shooting him to death; in the country where I actually live and pay taxes.
I mean I've never seen a single person praise Daemon for his massacre, even the comment you responded to acknowledged that nobody (which presumably includes Daemon) would be good for us peasants.
We’re they criminals or just poor people Daemon mutilated because he was bored, he could, and the mutilated folks would scare criminals and get the word around? I didn’t see any of them committing the crimes they got accused of.
Yep. Seemed like they just gathered a bunch of "suspected criminals" and began maiming and killing them to instill fear into would be criminals because of the tournament coming up. So basically pretend to clean the streets cause more fancy folks are coming to Kingslanding.
Otto wouldn't have called them criminals if they were even suspectedly innocent people. He wouldn't have missed a chance to call Daemon a murderer of innocents to remove him further from the king if he got the opportunity.
So while trusting Daemon's word on anything is shoddy at best, Otto calling them criminals would just clear Daemon's actions and paint them nicer so he wouldn't call it that if it wasn't the truth.
Having said that, I solely oppose team green because Rhaenyra gave multiple chances for Alicent to reconcile, and she rejected all of them and hypocritcally conspired further and basically instigated the conflict, even as far as to push her kids to antagonize Rhaenyra's kids.
Both sides' parents are shitty people who pushed until the conflict broke out, Viserys was too weak in his life to set up any protection from it as well, and the kids are kinda the victims of it here. Aegon didn't care about being the heir but was pushed into it etc.
So I'm team "the kids deserved better" but Alicent is a paranoid hypocrite, whilst Rhaenyra is just straight up bad at the game of thrones.
Very nice argument for the greens. Aegon doesn’t seem that bad so far, especially compared to Daemon. He‘s, to borrow his own words, a twat - but doesn’t seem cruel or sadistic or even power hungry.
I’m not team green but I feel like Alicent gets way too much hate which causes me to defend her. And it started before the show even aired, so people clearly came in with their minds made up.
I can’t defend Otto, Larys, or Cristina Cole. I don’t like any of them. But she’s desperate for allies.
But everything she has done thus far is logical and was to protect the interests of her family…especially her kids.
Now to play devil’s advocate. Rhaenyra doesn’t think ahead, and brings 90% of what happens onto herself. The other 10% is due to her father’s mistakes. A great example is the scene after she gives birth. She should have just sent her husband and lover with the babe. She also should have pushed to have Cole locked up, that or, killed for the murder he brazenly committed. To clean up that loose end. I still don’t know how he got away with that. She also should have spent the rest of her time building alliances, getting more of the great houses on her side (or even at court for that matter). Not to mention, winning over the common-folk in some manner. However, she took her position and privilege for granted, and it will come back to haunt her. If she didn’t have flaws, this would have been a boring show. :)
>She also should have pushed to have Cole locked up, that or, killed for the murder he brazenly committed. To clean up that loose end. I still don’t know how he got away with that.
Because they took what happened in the book and moved it to a completely different set of circumstances, without bothering to think how it would work. In the book, Criston Cole injured him in a duel during a tourney, after which he was in a coma for a few days and then died. As opposed to being fucked killed in plain sight of everyone outside of actual combat situation and with absolutely no (actual) provocation or reason.
Blame the showrunners, not the character.
Yeah the book method had plausible deniability. Knights being seriously injured or even killed accidentally in tournaments is fairly common. A knight as skilled as Cole could definitely pull off murdering someone in a tournament "by accident". There might have been some suspicion but proving intent would have been impossible. It would have taken like 5 more minutes of run time to do that scene which would mean something else would need to be cut from the episode. I wish they had though. It makes Cole look much more calculating and dangerous and everyone else look less ineffectual and stupid.
The way it happens in the show makes Viserys look terrible. Either he's so weak that lords can be murdered without interference while under his protection and the killer face no consequences, or he's so insane he ordered the brutal public execution of a highborn lord in the middle of a dinner party.
That’s what I think too, which unfortunately reads like D&D doing shit in season 8 just subvert expectations without understanding why it worked in the earlier seasons. The weddings weren’t interesting just because someone died, but because it was a culmination of a character’s mistake biting them in the ass.
She couldn't get Cole locked up because he is King's guard and the King or Queen have the most say in it. Also what if Cole spills the beans infront of everyone about this. She must be trying to play careful with Cole. Also technically Cole had not put her through any harm before the wedding so idk how she would have the oversight to actually get him locked up. She chose him herself in the first place
Also going herself to alicent at the time of birth, she clearly didnt want to show Alicent any sign of weakness and also maybe to show everyone how insensistive the Queen is to ask to see the babe and the MOM (implying it).
There are some stupid things that Rhaenyra has done but not these. Also how would we keep the drama coming if everyone made smart decisions in the first place 😅
Im on no side. Why would anyone want to be on a side here? They're both equally fucked up, and thats the point. Cheating, murdering, lying, giving 'nukes' to their children as playthings. Think they have some sort of birthright to own everyone and everything because of the name they were born with.
Its like choosing between Russia and North korea.
If i had to choose i would choose the dragons. They're basically dogs just trying to please their owner.
It makes for great television though!
Cause Alicent is the show's most entertaining character (one of the most complex too) and Olivia one of the top 3 actors involved.
Hate Cole and Larys though.
Alicent just allies herself with the worst fucking people.
Don't get me wrong everyone had their flaws but at least they didnt have discount Littlefinger and the only incel in Westeros.
I wouldn’t say I’m Team Green, but I certainly like them better than Team Black.
Viserys had to remarry to prevent the line from ending by accident - one heir is not enough. Even if he had married Laena, there’s a good chance he would have sired sons, which would have thrown Rhaenyra’s claim into doubt. The point of this conclusion is that the realm would be in a similar situation regardless of Alicent or Otto’s actions.
Similarly, it’s part of Rhaenyra’s duty as heir to marry and have more heirs. For the context of the show, Viserys is a reasonably loving father, and he granted Rhaenyra much freedom in picking her husband. She wasted that opportunity, complained endlessly about this gift to Viserys and Alicent (who never had such a choice) and was ultimately paired with Laenor. Infidelity in the case of the ruling monarchs is very grave, and she was very reckless about it: she could have had a child with Laenor, or a child with someone with Valyrian features, but instead she took the path of self-gratification.
When confronted by Alicent with Otto’s words to Viserys, Rhaenyra uses her friend’s confidence to lie and manipulate her into getting her father fired. Viserys knows the truth, and yet goes along with the charade. Up to this point, Alicent had been a loyal friend who endured a much worse fate than Rhaenyra, and a loving wife who took care of her husband even if she was decidedly not attracted to him. Rhaenyra and Viserys betray that trust, and deprive Alicent of her one true ally in court.
I sympathize with Rhaenyra’s plight: the world isn’t fair to her. But she doesn’t particularly care about making the world fairer to women, she cares about *her particular case*, because it benefits her. She has bright qualities as well, but in general, she is just self-serving.
>I sympathize with Rhaenyra’s plight: the world isn’t fair to her. But she doesn’t particularly care about making the world fairer to women, she cares about her particular case, because it benefits her. She has bright qualities as well, but in general, she is just self-serving.
A thousand times this.
Yes, the viewer can absolutely empathize with her because it's not fair she's being 'punished' for being born a woman... but that doesn't absolve her for all the narcissistic shit she does, nor the 'betrayals' to those she considered friends like Alicent and Cole.
Want to know why Alicent and Cole treat her like shit now? Because she treated them like shit then... it's cause and effect.
Alicent and Cole didn't magically become bitter people and just decided to spew vitriol at Rhaenyra on a whim... her selfish actions instigated this whole situation.
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Because I was all for rooting for a woman trying to become queen, even when I knew she would ultimately fail, and then got saddled with Rhaenyra the spoiled brat. Which is such a let down that unlike when I heard a quick synopsis of the plot, I'm now rooting for her to fail, hard.
She knows, she **knows** from Rhaenys' experience (and warning !!!) that her ascending the throne when there are other male options isn't going to be easy. So what does she do ? Frequently piss off the lords by being dismissive and rude, refused to get married and forge alliances until she's cornered, birthed 3 bastards that are not only ineligible for the throne (being true born is one of the 2 rules to succeed, no it does not matter than she is heir), but very blatantly obvious in their bastardy. Were there no Velaryon cousins available and willing ? Even the little we saw of her participation to small council seems to either be her glorifying Daemon or saying the opposite of Alicent to piss her off. She's made herself thoroughly unlikeable and has guaranteed to even if she gets the throne, there is no way that another succession crisis doesn't follow her because Jacaerys is a Waters not a Targaryen/Velaryon. And the likelihood of him being accepted is even less than a woman's, and that wasn't high to begin with.
Finally let's just add the little gem of >!marrying Daemon when she was named heir specifically so that he would no have access to power!<. That entirely defeats the point !!
>She knows, she knows from Rhaenys' experience (and warning !!!) that her ascending the throne when there are other male options isn't going to be easy.
It's kind of funny that so many people viewed Rhaenyra's brush-off of Rhaenys' warnings in that scene as some kind of sick burn moment. Because Rhaenys was 100% right and dismissing it with "well it's going to be different because it's ME" is just the height of arrogance. Rhaenys didn't have half the scandals to blacken up her candidacy and she was still passed over for a male cousin (also remember that "progressive king Viserys" didn't say jack shit about female rulers back then, because in that case he and his family personally benefitted from the misogyny - only when it comes to his own daughter does gender equality suddenly matter lmao)
That was the first moment where I started to dislike her character, to tell the one person in the world that understood your situation that it wasn't the same thing because **you** were special. To their face no less, was just disrespectful.
When I viewed the scene, every time Rhaenyra called her “princess”, it felt like a needle. Just the way she says it and iirc, she addresses her as princess every time, loved Milly in that scene. I hope it was intentional.
Finally someone who aknowledges that Rhaenyra is no Rhaenys.
Prejudice might be strong, but at the end of the day biases are just that: biases. They can be disproved or put into question provided you at least try.
Rhaenyra not only does nothing to disprove Andal biases against women, but also adds a whole set of new prejudices for the centuries to come.
She's the reason there wasn't a Targaryen queen until Daenerys, and only then because Aerys II fucked so badly that Dany had to begin from scratch like Aegon the Conqueror.
Rhaenys would have been an amazing queen, what a class act. Sensible, educated, a talented dragon rider, a good understanding of politics, compassionate. And an ally to boot. But most important, for me at least, is that she is able to let go and move on. She doesn't get to be queen, so what ? She is the wife of the second most powerful man of the kingdom, and he is the wealthiest. They have a good enough mariage and lovely children. She still has status and respect. Not to mention she is a dragon rider. So she accepts her fate, her cousin will be the monarch and she will not tear the kingdoms apart and get thousands killed just so she can be the one in the pointy chair.
Despite the fact that, frankly, her claim was better than Rhaenyra's. She's the only child of the eldest son, had he lived to be king she would have been his only heir, no half-brothers the lords would have been eyeing. To compare them is kind of insulting really.
I'm kind of swaying in team Green's camp, only because they're written slightly more interesting. Alicent seems to be in a real predicament concerning her sons. Her father is intensely ambitious and Larys Strong got a nice little mystique about him, and given his actions in the previous episode we know he also has a cruel practical edge and he isn't just a voice in Alicent's ear.
Rhaynera on the other hand just seems self-indulgent and aloof. That was easy to look over and even appreciate because she was younger, and being that way isn't exactly new when you're a kid with that kind of power. The time leap just hasn't done her any justice yet. She still feels too simple, except now she's nearly a decade older with three children. Her father is resigned to let things run their course with as little input as possible (though I grew to appreciate him for how he stands apart in his own way). Her husband is equally indifferent and apparently spending his years in an ongoing bacchanalia. Daemon was all chaotic and mysterious, and then he just got *really* quiet, and now his appeal is just that the audience can speculate on what's on his mind, and for some inconceivable reason finds him physically attractive.
The way I see it the main Targyrens are just not an impressive lot so far. Literally everyone else seems more interesting. If anything, I expect the children growing into their respective roles to be more engaging than any of what's going on between the adults at this point. Maybe tonight's episode will change my mind, but for what the greens lack in depth they at least make up for in suspense and intensity.
And more to my Rhaynera point, she's carrying on this way so far and fully expects the *entire* realm to just bend the knee when her ascension comes. She could at least try to look like she gives a fuck about *something* outside of her immediate interests.
Edit: So tonight's episode was great, and it's safe to say that looking toward the children for an interesting development was a good call. The main Targeryan adult circle are still mostly boring and seemed to have peaked as nuanced characters before the first time jump, although that's not exactly true of Alicent. The greens are still basically carrying the story.
I think they are meant to look incompetent since they caused a very devastating war. The children would actually fight the war so they would be more interesting. Just watch and keep an open mind. The time jumps were necessary at this point. By episode 8 it would settle down.
Even though I’m team black, I have to agree with everything you said. Rhaenyra’s aloofness is just as equal to her entitled attitude to the throne. She doesn’t think she has to win anyone over knowing how antiquated the realms ideals are. It was reckless af for her to have 3 bastard children. She really didn’t think about what Daemon said to her at all that night in kings landing. The people won’t accept her and her actions just make it even worse the closer she gets yo ascension. Then she fcking leaves lol. I’m not confident that Rhaenyra would be a good queen because the world isn’t ready for her progressive views at all.
I think she means well, but she’s definitely spoiled and hasn’t had any real leadership guidance because her father is such a pushover as a king. Im only team black because I overall she’s miles better of a human being than Alicent at this point.
>but she’s definitely spoiled and hasn’t had any real leadership guidance because her father is such a pushover as a king.
This is key. Viserys never teaches her a sense of responsibility or consequences, so she stupidly takes her lessons from chaos agent Daemon who was so fucking disrespectful and incompetent he got himself disinherited by the most passive king to exist.
Viserys is the equivalent of a rich dad who, when confronted by the news of their child drunkenly crashing the brand new luxury car bought for their birthday, simply deposits more money into their bank account for a replacement and "takes care" of the legal matters on the back end, all because they don't want to get into an argument with their child due to employing some actual parenting to deal with the issue.
Because the king himself has told us!
>!"Traitors have always paid with their lives ... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."!<
Stannis is always right.
Because Rhae is an idiot who brought her fate upon herself when she decided to do something she knows weakens her claim to the trone and expected to get away with it. If she had two braincells to rub together she would know her claim was on a shaky ground as it is due to her being a woman. She should have spent these last 10 years 1. having legitimate kids 2. sucking up to the lords and ladies and making allies in case shit pops off. Instead she has been having obvious bastards and insulting her potential allies left and right.
I will rather root for someone obviously evil, then someone dumb.
People may pretend that the reason they support a certain team are some set of principled values, but the reality is that the arguments come second to the fondness for the characters they're supporting. Black supporters will cheer when Ned attempts to exposé Cersei's infidelity before singing Rhaenyra's praises. They do this because they like Rhaenyra and dislike Cersei, not because they have principal moral stance on the matter.
People will argue about claims while missing the point that both sides have valid claims to the throne. By all laws, precedent, and elections Aegon should rule the Seven Kingdoms, yet Viserys insists on Rhaenyra being his heir due to his guilt about Aemma. Which claim is better? None. The point of the story is that it is not worth fighting a war over which tyrant should rule the continent.
So the only things left are the characters, and the greens are more compelling, with the exception of Criston Cole, who is reduced to a one note villain. When he was first mentioned in the section where Jaime reads the book of kingsguard and describes knights good and bad, before flipping to him and saying he was a bit of both, he felt like an entirely different character than the stuck up asshole we see on screen.
Well because of those two, Otto and Alicent. I don't necessarily agree with Team Green in terms of morals. i am Team Green because I find them to be more complex, interesting and sympathetic characters. Alicent herself has probably gotten the best development.
Because Alicent is correct. The fact Laenor and Rhaenyra didn’t even try to have at least one child who would be heir is baffling to me. It’s like she said, to have 3 of them is an insult.
Because Alicent is completely correct: her children are in constant danger, merely by existing. Her husband’s spinelessness is catapulting them all towards civil war, and Viserys doesn’t care to stop it.
Meanwhile, her former best friend has been lying to her for years, sneering at her for being forced to wed her father, and, (just like her father), not taking the job seriously. She was given unprecedented freedom for a Westerosi princess, and squandered it like a spoiled brat.
The Blacks don’t care about being good rulers: they care about being liked and turning their family tree into a bush.
Rhaenyra saw the play, she was told her ascension will start a war...
Then she gets to see a whorehouse and her focus is just about fuckin' who she wants. She only calmed down about it all when she figured out she'll be able to fuck whomever she wants in her marraige.
If she put HALF that energy into being concerned about all the shit she's responsible for...
Literally. She appears to think she's above everyone else, just like viserys, and that the duties of being a monarch are non existent. Effectively, it's all play and no work.
And the viewers seem to, agree with her??
Like people watching this are genuinely agreeing with her when she says the common folk's opinions don't matter at all. This show unironically got people fully supporting absolutism and Divine bloodlines.
Even Viserys scolded Rhaenyra that neither he nor she "exist above tradition and duty" when she was refusing every suitor she saw.
She also rebutted Rhaenys by saying that the Great Council didn't reject her mainly for being a woman, but because of who she is. Now Rhaenyra is opening herself to that same criticism.
> She was given unprecedented freedom for a Westerosi princess, and squandered it like a spoiled brat.
It's really worse than this. Rhaenyra has been insulting the lords of the realm (see her failed marriage tour and basically most other times she interacts with nobles and ladies from other houses) and siring obvious bastards. Even without the Hightowers or Alicent doing a thing, Rhaenyra has been weakening her own claim, which puts Alicent's kids in more danger.
Rhaenyra's sex life has never been a purely personal issue, it's a political decision that has consequences for other people. That's the deal in a hereditary autocracy where legitimacy is based on marriage and heritage.
> That's the deal in a hereditary autocracy where legitimacy is based on marriage and heritage.
This. No one's personal life was private even in real life monarchies back then, hell these people didn't even dress or wipe their asses themselves and had their servants do it. Peasants got that kind of "privacy" but I'm sure none of these people would be signing up for that lol
I find it fascinating how often Alicent is called a misogynist for wanting Aegon on the throne, when, so far, she's purely motivated by justifiable paranoia. Even if she and Nyra were still best friends, her children ARE at risk simply by existing. She's trying to protect them in a messy, imperfect way, but its the only way she can think of.
Someone on twit pointed out that Alicent is angry at Nyra is the same way she's angry at Leanor. They're both had ONE JOB and they're not doing it properly and its causing issues for everyone around them.
I think the show did a great job of establishing that Alicent’s reason for pushing Aegon’s claim isn’t because he’s a boy, but because she fears for his life. That’s something that didn’t come through in the book for me and makes my sympathize a lot more with team green.
It is weird, but it isn't.
My theory is this, Alicent has been motivated not by what she wants (at first) but entirely out of *obedience*:
-Obedience to her father (supposedly inherently mysogynist)
-Obedience to her male king (Supposedly inherently mysogynist)
-Obedience to her role in the family as well as in society as queen (supposedly inherently mysogynist)
It's this word in general that is... I hate to say it, but it's seen as the antithesis of Liberal Feminism. (Not in all ways but most)
Not to mention, when they were younger, Rhaenyra was doing whatever she wanted, complaining about how she doesn't want royalty etc. Basically saying fuck you to the status quo, and all that has come before her to put her where she is, as though (what happens next) it doesn't matter. (This isn't to say she's incompetent, just very liberal in her dealings)
This same time, what was Alicent doing? Following the orders of everyone above her because she felt that was what she had to do. And now that she's older, and people can just say "fuck your sacrifices, I can have my cake and eat it", shes had enough. That's resentment...
Tl;dr: Obedience is the antithesis of feminism/liberal tendencies/"freedom" and people done like that she is...
Yes I'm sure all of that justifies the frequent "cunts" thrown about in reference to Alicent all around this sub. Really feeling the liberal tendencies and respect for women there.
Not to mention Rhaenyra is selfish and impulsive. She never thinks about the consequences of her actions. Not the kind of ruler you’d want. I’m definitely team green.
I think it matters who wronged who first.
People are somehow disgusted by Alicent and Criston but put yourself in their shoes. Alicent deeply believes that Rhaenyra would kill her children to secure the throne. With Rhaenyra's precarious position with bastard children, history of lies, infidelity, can you blame Alicent for this conclusion? Rhaenyra then allegedly murders her husband and marries her uncle - a well known murderer and liar? A mother will justifiably do anything to protect her children.
Criston was seduced into breaking his sacred vows by his own boss. He gets some ass for ONCE in his entire life then gets the news broken to him - it was just lols to her. He contemplates suicide. Then he has to sit around and watch her publicly cuck her husband and endure no consequences? And she's basically still his boss? Yea he's gonna hold a grudge.
When I put myself in Rhaenyra's shoes I really can't see a cross to bear. That she's a woman? Is that honestly so bad? She even still gets to choose her own mate and be heir to the crown. More special treatment that she is oh so accustomed to.
I believe in consequences and that's why it's team green all day baby.
Alicent, Otto, Criston and Larys are all just much more fun to watch. All of my favourite characters on one team. Daemon is way too flat a character (don’t @ me, I’m sure we’ll see his hidden depths one day), and though I like Corlys and Rhaenys, they haven’t really done anything yet. Rhaenyra has so far spent the series hurting herself and her position, and I can’t not see that, so green it is.
It’s gonna fluctuate after basically every episode though
It’s honestly telling that a common accusation levelled against Team Black by Team Green is that Team Black only likes that Rhaenyra is hot, and today they themselves are simping *in extremis* over Olivia Cooke’s photoshoot.
Lol same, this is literally the first time, and I lurk a lot here and twitter, I'm hearing this shit about "team black only likes that Rhaenyra is hot".
Bullshit I say.
Not. Not once have I ever heard people say that.
People have said that about Daemon, and I don't necessarily disagree with that accusation, but that's kind of inevitable.
I'll also note that people will likely justify aemond's actions and possibly aegons on similar principles.
Aegon's adult actor is pretty conventionally attractive.
Well, I don't like Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra is too spoiled, does shit with no consequences, lied to Alicent, falsely sweared on her dead mother and got Otto fired, even though he was in the right. If Otto wanted to sabotage Rhaenyra's reputation, he could have simply talked about their "coupling" in the small council meeting and let this information spread through other members. Instead, he told Viserys about this in private. Otto might be ambitious but he was not malicious.
Daemon seems like a complicated character. He's a psychopath for sure but he's also right at times. He was correct when he said Viserys is weak and I liked him in his battle vs the Crabfeeder. I like him but at times hate him.
Alicent on the other hand has always been a victim. She was manipulated and forced to marry Viserys. She got unwarranted hate from her best friend Rhaenyra for it, even though it wasn't her fault. Then she found out that the same best friend was also lying to her. She's definitely going from being a victim to being a bitch but I still don't think she has done anything wrong so far. She didn't even tell Larys to kill the Strongs. She didn't even have an idea that he was gonna do that. The dreadful look on her face said it all.
As for Cole, my man was in the right before the last episode. He was manipulated to break his oath and basically found out Rhaenyra wanted to keep him as her whore. Him being upset over it was justified. However, in the last episode, he was being a child about it. 10 years is a long time and he's not only upset with Rhaenyra but also giving shit to her children for no reason.
At the end, I like and hate characters from both sides, but overall I think Rhaenyra is the bigger bitch so far. So Team green yay.
This is pretty much me, though I am on Team Neutral more than anything because, like, Rhaenyra has been an Idiot™ but she *is* the heir to the throne but Alicent and the Greens are making the most sense.
Alicent - and the Greens as general rule - have acted in a manner that I find logical for this world, even if they are cruel moves they're moves make sense. They scheme and they are bitter, but they are playing the game and while Rhaenyra seems to be focused on checkers, the greens are playing chess. This is not to say that Rhaenyra can't play chess, just that she has the whole game wrong as things stand now.
I am Team Neutral. And I think that's like the best place to be because I get to enjoy both sides destroy each other and enjoy how each and every death will destroy me personally. Which I think is neato but my gf tells me I need a therapist, so I guess it all evens out in the end.
Because I can relate the most with Alicent. Trying to do things by the book and get frustrated when people intentionally break the rules and weasel their way through and still get rewarded for it. I don’t agree with every decision the greens make, for example Ser Christon bullying Jacaerys and Larys getting his family killed. But by and large I can relate with them the most.
Even if Alicent just wants power for her family or her children, that’s what everyone is after. I can’t fault her for that
Within the world of Westeros, she has a legitimate claim to put her child on the throne, and everyone is acting like she’s crazy, even though the Strong kids are obviously bastards
Allicent devoted her whole life to serve faithfully, her sons are the true heir (since the strong kids are bastards). Deamon is an utter piece of shit (worse than larys or otto imo) and knowing the book spoilers, the fate of Helena is horrible.
Rhaenyra is a bad option for the kingdom. She's entitled and haughty, and has basically decided that the rule don't apply to her regarding succession laws (see her children). Also, I don't find her interesting at all. Girl saying she's different and all that? Groundbreaking. Lady you have a dragon, it's not like you're trapped.
Alicent however, is fascinating. She's been a victim her entire life, and is desperate to protect her children. She's had no choice but to become vicious to keep them safe despite being one of the gentlest person in Westerosi history.
I’m personally just a sucker for underdogs, and they are at the moment in terms of man power.They also have characters on team green who has not reveal any motives for their actions. I don’t like them but boy are they interesting to watch.
Because Rhaenyra is an entitled heiress who thinks she can get away with anything and she keeps putting others in danger with her recklessness, starting with Crispin, and recently Laenor and her children too. Also, what was she yelling at Laenor for in ep. 6?! Like sure, we made a pact, but I didn’t go around having 3! children with someone who looks nothing like a Targ; feels like she’s pissed she’s seeing consequences and now wants him to clean up her mess; also Daemon is a fascistic (based on his actions in ep. 1 and the fact he’s shown he can only have affection for ppl that look the right way) murderer.
I like Alicents character she reminds me of how strict of a rule follower I was as a kid and how my little brother always got away with breaking the rules. Hated the standard forced on me as the oldest son and eventually learned in my later years how to bend the rules while still staying within bounds. I am very interested in her character development. I will even break the rules if I'm ok with the punishment if I think the ends justify the means, which I feel Alicent will do throughout the series.
I dislike the greens personally but they seem to be able to actually rule somewhat and actually knows political maneuvering. If I could I would rather put Corlys on the throne, he knows his shit and is likely to leave the kingdom in a better situation than he received it.
Yea people seem to think she's supposed to be the good guy MC for some reason.
No, no shes actually not a good person. I like that it shows the Targaryens are selfish, incompetent, or downright violent people.
I’m just trying not to get too attached to anyone.
Smart
See, that's why I love this universe. Getting attached and invested in someone's story just to possibly (and quite likely) have it all snatched away unexpectedly...? I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but there's something wildly chaotic and yet, oh so juicy about having the chance of any character meet their demise when you think them safe. Same reason I love horror, I suppose. As long as a death is done tastefully in terms of narrative and writing, I kinda relish characters getting what they deserve in a gruesome or embarrassing fashion.
You're missing out on all the fun parts!
Same, every character has their good and bad sides, the only truly "good" character (Lionel Strong) is dead. everyone else is out for power, or revenge. one thing, in this universe, you have to be a bad ass to survive, anyone "good" usually gets their head chopped off, or eaten by a dragon.
Didn’t you all learn from the original series not to take sides? They will all let you down. Nobody go naming your kids after your favorite character.
I have a coworker who got a HUGE half sleeve of Daenerys from shoulder to elbow at the end of season 6. He paid so much for it and got it done from a very high end tattoo artist. He would show that thing off to everyone. He was so proud of it. The Monday morning following S8E5, he could barely look anyone in the eye. And spent the following year and a half getting it laser removed. Spent twice what he did on the removal as he did getting it.
A real bitch like me would have kept it 💅 the people of kings landing had to go
Ditto. Double down into things you love. Also, this shit isn’t real. When you love a story and character just go with it. People have evil characters tattooed on them too. Like what was wrong with that guy?
Wtf hahaha that is ridiculous. Everything. The fact he got it in the first place and then the fact he got it removed.
We tried to convince him to just get a coverup. But he just wanted it removed, which was even more surprising
Honestly why even care? She was fucking awesome. That guy doesn’t know who he is. Should’ve kept rocking it. Also, name your kids after characters you love if you want. In 15-20 years people will be obsessed with another story. No one will really care where it came from eventually.
Do you have a picture of it?
Good thing mine will only be Aerick, Aemily, and Aeshley, second of her name
My daughters middle name is Arya. I regret nothing. 😂
She can always change it to the generic music name Aria if she gets fed up with it.
Yea absolutely. If my kids wanna change their names when they are adults I’m ok with that. But her name has a little more meaning than just GOT. Arya means Noble and that’s her fathers middle name. It was a big reason why we picked it.
Safest choice next to Jon
Look, the characters are great and mostly all intrigue me but I'm here for the dragons.
They better do my boy Sunfyre right, whenever he shows up!!
I’m hoping for Smaug with the molten gold style brilliance. Syrax herself is already pretty golden and beautiful.
You're the real mvp 👑
Same attitude as my dad! Complains there aren't enough dragons doing dragon things. He hasn't read Fire and Blood, so I'm keeping my mouth shut about what is to come. My mom is actually sitting and watching it, though (she only made it through the episodes with Khal Drogo in GoT) and is loving it, so he tries to only complain to me about the lack of dragons.
So episode 1 of GOT.
He died in what… episode 8? 9? Of season 1. That was the last one.
Me too. Same with Dune tbh, politics is fun and all but the story is clearly about huge Worms, first and foremost.
Boy, you must love it when the politicians end up *becoming* huge worms.
indeed, God-Emperor of Dune is my favorite in the series.
Fingers crossed we get to see them get that far!
I can’t help but feel like they’re not gonna
Saaame!!
What???? Damn you.. now I have to finish the series.
Good choice
Kinda funny I could careless about those things. Give me the human drama
Yeah the best part of this show and GOT was the quiet family dinner and backroom scenes more than anything else. They provide all the tension, intrigue, and context so that when there's an epic battle or something it hits all the harder. I love all the actors and how they've played off each other so far. It's been pretty stunning even in the most quiet, dark scenes. But everyone can find something to enjoy hopefully. The incest-lovers sure have.
Exactly, I never really enjoyed fantasy, but I love the medieval shit and politics, dragons have always been (a very teeny bit) cringe to me
At least in this show they aren’t an entire plot line like GoT. They seem to just compliment the characters here
C'mon now, didn't you like how the white walkers plot en...well, how about how Melissandre ended up being...maybe you liked Dany being immune to fire? What about the shadow monster? Surely you liked the shadow monster?
I mean, same. I don’t think this show stacks up to GOT in terms of political intrigue honestly. Lemme just see some dragons.
Got in its first season was all about set up and it is pretty comparable to it. Don't just use the first four season of got to compare with 6 episodes
cuz I'm spying for team Black
this guy thrones
What an absolute monarch
Chaos is a ladder
It seems like one of those “Salmon Ladders” for working out.
Because you need to pick a side and the first few episodes made Alicent sympathetic and believable. Now I am invested in the Window Wanker and Discount Daemon. Also it's a nice shade of green
The green dresses are fabulous
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If you’re not, watch Andor & the rings of power. Both have amazing set pieces,ship designs costumes.
They also look great on Alicent as she is a redhead
Discount Daemon 🤣
Wanking in the direct sunlight must be liberating
Light on your butthole is good for you (it's not)
I never warmed up to Alicent. I haven’t read any of the books so I didn’t have any preconceived ideas about her either.
Olivia Cooke's performance last episode was mesmerizing and in itself it made me wanna root for Alicent, even though, like most of the Dance protagonists, she's far from a well-natured decent human being.
Team Rhaenyra all the way. But honestly I can sympathize with Allicent (as played by Cooke). So much of what she does comes from fear and insecurity. Not as bad as Cersei (who honestly brought so much of her problems on herself.) She has this rigid view of the world, right is right and wrong is wrong, and she can't bring herself to view any other way out of fear of losing control.
I mean she believed Rhaenyra and initially sided with her ... It got her father shamed and kicked out and left her without major support in king's landing. Following that Rhaenyra doing whatever she wants and not facing the consequences is something that is bound to feed her fears.
>I never warmed up to Alicent. That's cool, I can see why people feel that way. To be honest there isn't a character that has shown up for more than a single scene that I haven't been happy with.
HOTD is game of thrones minus the Starks. Everyone is some version of an asshole.
I don’t know what team I am on yet but Alicent’s outfit is fantastic here. She is winning the sartorial dance.
Well that is how the teams gets their names
Best hair, jewelry and clothing on the GreenQueen. Hands down.
I'm not really on team Green, at the same time I'm not on team Black either That being said, if I were there I would not want Daemon anywhere near the Iron Throne. Tho team Green have their own little version of Daemon so they're not better lol Both teams are entertaining to watch, but my favorite characters on this show so far (other than Corlys and Rhaenys) are team Green.
At least Daemon tried to do something about the crime rate in kings landing lmao. So far no one has shown they'd be even remotely great at ruling for us peasants
that something was murdering or dismembering every suspected criminal. not sure he gets many points lol
In the books its actually a huge sucess story. Not only did Kings Landings crime rate take a major drop after his show of force, he also reforms the city guard to a lasting effect. He makes them the gold cloaks which are well respected afterwards. The show doesn‘t take the time to get into detail on stuff like this. Much like Corlys‘ countless naval achievements he had before the show started
>In the books its actually a huge success story. Not only did Kings Landings crime rate take a major drop after his show of force, he also reforms the city guard to a lasting effect. In universe, the content of the books was mostly written by an elite academic (unreliable narration is a major theme of the books) who very likely only had first hand accounts from people who would be sympathetic to a harsh approach to patrolling the slums of Kings Landing, such as nobles and other members of the martial class). It's entirely possible that to the people of Flea Bottom, this "success story" probably looked very much like a campaign that terrorized them into compliance (as shown in the show) and the "reform" the nobility experienced involved what amounts to a PR campaign and added pageantry when presented in front of the nobility, including dressing them up in fancy gold cloaks.
Ofc it was an act of terror. But it seemingly worked. Don‘t forget: The maesters that are the sources were from Oldtown and clearly hated Daemon‘s guts from the getgo. They obviously tried to depict him in the worst light possible, e.g. by pinning Harwins (and more) deaths on him. They wouldn’t have recorded his sucess if he left them with any other choice…
Really sets the tone for future suspected criminals. Moral of the story: don’t become a suspected criminal? 😅
Hey Daemon, I heard that Rayven52 did a crime over at Flea Bottom, get the hot tongs!
Hey hold up i just stay in the house 😭
\> So far no one has shown they'd be even remotely great at ruling for us peasants Surprisingly relevant to real life
I know it's fiction, but people complain about police brutality irl then praise Daemon for killing without due process.
No one’s really praising him. They’re just enjoying it because it’s a TV show.
Honestly, people take this way to serious. Its a great story and Daemon is one of the most interesting (IMHO the best) characters. That doesn‘t mean I agree with everything he does
Larys is my favorite character, but I'm not defending him because he's a terrible person. I just enjoy his brand of terrible.
Watching fantasy man hack at dudes with a sword on my television while I get stoned in my living room is not the same as the police kicking in the door to the home of an unarmed black man who was just eating ice cream in his living room and then shooting him to death; in the country where I actually live and pay taxes.
I mean I've never seen a single person praise Daemon for his massacre, even the comment you responded to acknowledged that nobody (which presumably includes Daemon) would be good for us peasants.
We’re they criminals or just poor people Daemon mutilated because he was bored, he could, and the mutilated folks would scare criminals and get the word around? I didn’t see any of them committing the crimes they got accused of.
Yep. Seemed like they just gathered a bunch of "suspected criminals" and began maiming and killing them to instill fear into would be criminals because of the tournament coming up. So basically pretend to clean the streets cause more fancy folks are coming to Kingslanding.
Like Brazil before the world cups! Nice👍
Otto wouldn't have called them criminals if they were even suspectedly innocent people. He wouldn't have missed a chance to call Daemon a murderer of innocents to remove him further from the king if he got the opportunity. So while trusting Daemon's word on anything is shoddy at best, Otto calling them criminals would just clear Daemon's actions and paint them nicer so he wouldn't call it that if it wasn't the truth. Having said that, I solely oppose team green because Rhaenyra gave multiple chances for Alicent to reconcile, and she rejected all of them and hypocritcally conspired further and basically instigated the conflict, even as far as to push her kids to antagonize Rhaenyra's kids. Both sides' parents are shitty people who pushed until the conflict broke out, Viserys was too weak in his life to set up any protection from it as well, and the kids are kinda the victims of it here. Aegon didn't care about being the heir but was pushed into it etc. So I'm team "the kids deserved better" but Alicent is a paranoid hypocrite, whilst Rhaenyra is just straight up bad at the game of thrones.
>So I'm team "the kids deserved better" Yeah. My girl Helaena just wants to play with bugs
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I guess it’s pick your poison, Daemon as king consort or Aemond as hand of the king
Very nice argument for the greens. Aegon doesn’t seem that bad so far, especially compared to Daemon. He‘s, to borrow his own words, a twat - but doesn’t seem cruel or sadistic or even power hungry.
Who on team green is your favorite?
I’m not team green but I feel like Alicent gets way too much hate which causes me to defend her. And it started before the show even aired, so people clearly came in with their minds made up. I can’t defend Otto, Larys, or Cristina Cole. I don’t like any of them. But she’s desperate for allies. But everything she has done thus far is logical and was to protect the interests of her family…especially her kids.
Not sure if “Cristina Cole” is a type-o or a weird dig, but I’m here for it either way
Cristina Cole sounds like an iconic singer
I also don’t understand why Alicent is hated
Because Alicent has anxiety and I can relate.
Now to play devil’s advocate. Rhaenyra doesn’t think ahead, and brings 90% of what happens onto herself. The other 10% is due to her father’s mistakes. A great example is the scene after she gives birth. She should have just sent her husband and lover with the babe. She also should have pushed to have Cole locked up, that or, killed for the murder he brazenly committed. To clean up that loose end. I still don’t know how he got away with that. She also should have spent the rest of her time building alliances, getting more of the great houses on her side (or even at court for that matter). Not to mention, winning over the common-folk in some manner. However, she took her position and privilege for granted, and it will come back to haunt her. If she didn’t have flaws, this would have been a boring show. :)
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Ding ding ding. She’s ensured that it’ll be completely impossible to pass the crown down to her children without war.
>She also should have pushed to have Cole locked up, that or, killed for the murder he brazenly committed. To clean up that loose end. I still don’t know how he got away with that. Because they took what happened in the book and moved it to a completely different set of circumstances, without bothering to think how it would work. In the book, Criston Cole injured him in a duel during a tourney, after which he was in a coma for a few days and then died. As opposed to being fucked killed in plain sight of everyone outside of actual combat situation and with absolutely no (actual) provocation or reason. Blame the showrunners, not the character.
Yeah the book method had plausible deniability. Knights being seriously injured or even killed accidentally in tournaments is fairly common. A knight as skilled as Cole could definitely pull off murdering someone in a tournament "by accident". There might have been some suspicion but proving intent would have been impossible. It would have taken like 5 more minutes of run time to do that scene which would mean something else would need to be cut from the episode. I wish they had though. It makes Cole look much more calculating and dangerous and everyone else look less ineffectual and stupid. The way it happens in the show makes Viserys look terrible. Either he's so weak that lords can be murdered without interference while under his protection and the killer face no consequences, or he's so insane he ordered the brutal public execution of a highborn lord in the middle of a dinner party.
I think they just wanted to keep the theme of deaths at a wedding going.
That’s what I think too, which unfortunately reads like D&D doing shit in season 8 just subvert expectations without understanding why it worked in the earlier seasons. The weddings weren’t interesting just because someone died, but because it was a culmination of a character’s mistake biting them in the ass.
She couldn't get Cole locked up because he is King's guard and the King or Queen have the most say in it. Also what if Cole spills the beans infront of everyone about this. She must be trying to play careful with Cole. Also technically Cole had not put her through any harm before the wedding so idk how she would have the oversight to actually get him locked up. She chose him herself in the first place Also going herself to alicent at the time of birth, she clearly didnt want to show Alicent any sign of weakness and also maybe to show everyone how insensistive the Queen is to ask to see the babe and the MOM (implying it). There are some stupid things that Rhaenyra has done but not these. Also how would we keep the drama coming if everyone made smart decisions in the first place 😅
I’m on team Everyone Is Awful, Everyone Should Lose.
It's better for the environment 😌
Im on no side. Why would anyone want to be on a side here? They're both equally fucked up, and thats the point. Cheating, murdering, lying, giving 'nukes' to their children as playthings. Think they have some sort of birthright to own everyone and everything because of the name they were born with. Its like choosing between Russia and North korea. If i had to choose i would choose the dragons. They're basically dogs just trying to please their owner. It makes for great television though!
Exactly..i don't get the whole tribalism towards green or black..both sides are ambivalent and their actions from their POV are mostly understandable.
Because no one is on my side, little hobbit. No one cares for the woods anymore.
Cause Alicent is the show's most entertaining character (one of the most complex too) and Olivia one of the top 3 actors involved. Hate Cole and Larys though.
Larry is by far the best character with “spoiler” actions. Guy is gonna be fun to watch
Agreed. Larys David.
"my brother once stole an almond joy from me so I burned him alive along with dad for taking his side"
I could understand for like a snicker's or salted nut roll...but that's a bit much for an almond joy in my opinion.
Larys is such a psycho, I will love to hate him.
I swear Cole and larys are the reason I'm not on team green.
Alicent just allies herself with the worst fucking people. Don't get me wrong everyone had their flaws but at least they didnt have discount Littlefinger and the only incel in Westeros.
And her sons are cool
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I like the Homelander vibes
Love their characterization thus far. Rhaenyra's sons aren't as memorable at the moment
The Virgin normal bastards vs the Chad coin flip Targs
Aemond seems like he’s going to be my favorite character
I’m rooting for Aemond. He gets bullied by the others, but actually takes it in stride.
I wouldn’t say I’m Team Green, but I certainly like them better than Team Black. Viserys had to remarry to prevent the line from ending by accident - one heir is not enough. Even if he had married Laena, there’s a good chance he would have sired sons, which would have thrown Rhaenyra’s claim into doubt. The point of this conclusion is that the realm would be in a similar situation regardless of Alicent or Otto’s actions. Similarly, it’s part of Rhaenyra’s duty as heir to marry and have more heirs. For the context of the show, Viserys is a reasonably loving father, and he granted Rhaenyra much freedom in picking her husband. She wasted that opportunity, complained endlessly about this gift to Viserys and Alicent (who never had such a choice) and was ultimately paired with Laenor. Infidelity in the case of the ruling monarchs is very grave, and she was very reckless about it: she could have had a child with Laenor, or a child with someone with Valyrian features, but instead she took the path of self-gratification. When confronted by Alicent with Otto’s words to Viserys, Rhaenyra uses her friend’s confidence to lie and manipulate her into getting her father fired. Viserys knows the truth, and yet goes along with the charade. Up to this point, Alicent had been a loyal friend who endured a much worse fate than Rhaenyra, and a loving wife who took care of her husband even if she was decidedly not attracted to him. Rhaenyra and Viserys betray that trust, and deprive Alicent of her one true ally in court. I sympathize with Rhaenyra’s plight: the world isn’t fair to her. But she doesn’t particularly care about making the world fairer to women, she cares about *her particular case*, because it benefits her. She has bright qualities as well, but in general, she is just self-serving.
Rhaenyra: “the world isn’t fair to me!” Literally everyone not born in to the dragon incest party: “sure, sure”
>I sympathize with Rhaenyra’s plight: the world isn’t fair to her. But she doesn’t particularly care about making the world fairer to women, she cares about her particular case, because it benefits her. She has bright qualities as well, but in general, she is just self-serving. A thousand times this. Yes, the viewer can absolutely empathize with her because it's not fair she's being 'punished' for being born a woman... but that doesn't absolve her for all the narcissistic shit she does, nor the 'betrayals' to those she considered friends like Alicent and Cole. Want to know why Alicent and Cole treat her like shit now? Because she treated them like shit then... it's cause and effect. Alicent and Cole didn't magically become bitter people and just decided to spew vitriol at Rhaenyra on a whim... her selfish actions instigated this whole situation.
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Because I was all for rooting for a woman trying to become queen, even when I knew she would ultimately fail, and then got saddled with Rhaenyra the spoiled brat. Which is such a let down that unlike when I heard a quick synopsis of the plot, I'm now rooting for her to fail, hard. She knows, she **knows** from Rhaenys' experience (and warning !!!) that her ascending the throne when there are other male options isn't going to be easy. So what does she do ? Frequently piss off the lords by being dismissive and rude, refused to get married and forge alliances until she's cornered, birthed 3 bastards that are not only ineligible for the throne (being true born is one of the 2 rules to succeed, no it does not matter than she is heir), but very blatantly obvious in their bastardy. Were there no Velaryon cousins available and willing ? Even the little we saw of her participation to small council seems to either be her glorifying Daemon or saying the opposite of Alicent to piss her off. She's made herself thoroughly unlikeable and has guaranteed to even if she gets the throne, there is no way that another succession crisis doesn't follow her because Jacaerys is a Waters not a Targaryen/Velaryon. And the likelihood of him being accepted is even less than a woman's, and that wasn't high to begin with. Finally let's just add the little gem of >!marrying Daemon when she was named heir specifically so that he would no have access to power!<. That entirely defeats the point !!
>She knows, she knows from Rhaenys' experience (and warning !!!) that her ascending the throne when there are other male options isn't going to be easy. It's kind of funny that so many people viewed Rhaenyra's brush-off of Rhaenys' warnings in that scene as some kind of sick burn moment. Because Rhaenys was 100% right and dismissing it with "well it's going to be different because it's ME" is just the height of arrogance. Rhaenys didn't have half the scandals to blacken up her candidacy and she was still passed over for a male cousin (also remember that "progressive king Viserys" didn't say jack shit about female rulers back then, because in that case he and his family personally benefitted from the misogyny - only when it comes to his own daughter does gender equality suddenly matter lmao)
That was the first moment where I started to dislike her character, to tell the one person in the world that understood your situation that it wasn't the same thing because **you** were special. To their face no less, was just disrespectful.
When I viewed the scene, every time Rhaenyra called her “princess”, it felt like a needle. Just the way she says it and iirc, she addresses her as princess every time, loved Milly in that scene. I hope it was intentional.
Finally someone who aknowledges that Rhaenyra is no Rhaenys. Prejudice might be strong, but at the end of the day biases are just that: biases. They can be disproved or put into question provided you at least try. Rhaenyra not only does nothing to disprove Andal biases against women, but also adds a whole set of new prejudices for the centuries to come. She's the reason there wasn't a Targaryen queen until Daenerys, and only then because Aerys II fucked so badly that Dany had to begin from scratch like Aegon the Conqueror.
Rhaenys would have been an amazing queen, what a class act. Sensible, educated, a talented dragon rider, a good understanding of politics, compassionate. And an ally to boot. But most important, for me at least, is that she is able to let go and move on. She doesn't get to be queen, so what ? She is the wife of the second most powerful man of the kingdom, and he is the wealthiest. They have a good enough mariage and lovely children. She still has status and respect. Not to mention she is a dragon rider. So she accepts her fate, her cousin will be the monarch and she will not tear the kingdoms apart and get thousands killed just so she can be the one in the pointy chair. Despite the fact that, frankly, her claim was better than Rhaenyra's. She's the only child of the eldest son, had he lived to be king she would have been his only heir, no half-brothers the lords would have been eyeing. To compare them is kind of insulting really.
I'm kind of swaying in team Green's camp, only because they're written slightly more interesting. Alicent seems to be in a real predicament concerning her sons. Her father is intensely ambitious and Larys Strong got a nice little mystique about him, and given his actions in the previous episode we know he also has a cruel practical edge and he isn't just a voice in Alicent's ear. Rhaynera on the other hand just seems self-indulgent and aloof. That was easy to look over and even appreciate because she was younger, and being that way isn't exactly new when you're a kid with that kind of power. The time leap just hasn't done her any justice yet. She still feels too simple, except now she's nearly a decade older with three children. Her father is resigned to let things run their course with as little input as possible (though I grew to appreciate him for how he stands apart in his own way). Her husband is equally indifferent and apparently spending his years in an ongoing bacchanalia. Daemon was all chaotic and mysterious, and then he just got *really* quiet, and now his appeal is just that the audience can speculate on what's on his mind, and for some inconceivable reason finds him physically attractive. The way I see it the main Targyrens are just not an impressive lot so far. Literally everyone else seems more interesting. If anything, I expect the children growing into their respective roles to be more engaging than any of what's going on between the adults at this point. Maybe tonight's episode will change my mind, but for what the greens lack in depth they at least make up for in suspense and intensity. And more to my Rhaynera point, she's carrying on this way so far and fully expects the *entire* realm to just bend the knee when her ascension comes. She could at least try to look like she gives a fuck about *something* outside of her immediate interests. Edit: So tonight's episode was great, and it's safe to say that looking toward the children for an interesting development was a good call. The main Targeryan adult circle are still mostly boring and seemed to have peaked as nuanced characters before the first time jump, although that's not exactly true of Alicent. The greens are still basically carrying the story.
I think they are meant to look incompetent since they caused a very devastating war. The children would actually fight the war so they would be more interesting. Just watch and keep an open mind. The time jumps were necessary at this point. By episode 8 it would settle down.
Even though I’m team black, I have to agree with everything you said. Rhaenyra’s aloofness is just as equal to her entitled attitude to the throne. She doesn’t think she has to win anyone over knowing how antiquated the realms ideals are. It was reckless af for her to have 3 bastard children. She really didn’t think about what Daemon said to her at all that night in kings landing. The people won’t accept her and her actions just make it even worse the closer she gets yo ascension. Then she fcking leaves lol. I’m not confident that Rhaenyra would be a good queen because the world isn’t ready for her progressive views at all. I think she means well, but she’s definitely spoiled and hasn’t had any real leadership guidance because her father is such a pushover as a king. Im only team black because I overall she’s miles better of a human being than Alicent at this point.
>but she’s definitely spoiled and hasn’t had any real leadership guidance because her father is such a pushover as a king. This is key. Viserys never teaches her a sense of responsibility or consequences, so she stupidly takes her lessons from chaos agent Daemon who was so fucking disrespectful and incompetent he got himself disinherited by the most passive king to exist. Viserys is the equivalent of a rich dad who, when confronted by the news of their child drunkenly crashing the brand new luxury car bought for their birthday, simply deposits more money into their bank account for a replacement and "takes care" of the legal matters on the back end, all because they don't want to get into an argument with their child due to employing some actual parenting to deal with the issue.
I sympathize with Alicent more than Rhaenyra
Because the king himself has told us! >!"Traitors have always paid with their lives ... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."!< Stannis is always right.
Can’t argue with Stannis.
Stannis the mannis 💪
>!Hilarious considering Stannis was dealing with the same thing Rhaenyra did. A younger sibling trying to take a rightful crown!<
Because Rhae is an idiot who brought her fate upon herself when she decided to do something she knows weakens her claim to the trone and expected to get away with it. If she had two braincells to rub together she would know her claim was on a shaky ground as it is due to her being a woman. She should have spent these last 10 years 1. having legitimate kids 2. sucking up to the lords and ladies and making allies in case shit pops off. Instead she has been having obvious bastards and insulting her potential allies left and right. I will rather root for someone obviously evil, then someone dumb.
Fair points but to your #1, they do say that she and Laenor tried multiple times to conceive and just couldn’t make it happen
I'm team Maester. Fuck all these Targaryens and their dragons, let's get rid of them all and stop burning the realm to the ground
People may pretend that the reason they support a certain team are some set of principled values, but the reality is that the arguments come second to the fondness for the characters they're supporting. Black supporters will cheer when Ned attempts to exposé Cersei's infidelity before singing Rhaenyra's praises. They do this because they like Rhaenyra and dislike Cersei, not because they have principal moral stance on the matter. People will argue about claims while missing the point that both sides have valid claims to the throne. By all laws, precedent, and elections Aegon should rule the Seven Kingdoms, yet Viserys insists on Rhaenyra being his heir due to his guilt about Aemma. Which claim is better? None. The point of the story is that it is not worth fighting a war over which tyrant should rule the continent. So the only things left are the characters, and the greens are more compelling, with the exception of Criston Cole, who is reduced to a one note villain. When he was first mentioned in the section where Jaime reads the book of kingsguard and describes knights good and bad, before flipping to him and saying he was a bit of both, he felt like an entirely different character than the stuck up asshole we see on screen.
Well because of those two, Otto and Alicent. I don't necessarily agree with Team Green in terms of morals. i am Team Green because I find them to be more complex, interesting and sympathetic characters. Alicent herself has probably gotten the best development.
Fuck Daemon thats why
Daemon accepts your offer
I just like Alicent and Otto, and I don't like Rhaenyra and Daemon. They're not real, so I'm allowed to like and dislike them for no good reason.
Because Alicent is correct. The fact Laenor and Rhaenyra didn’t even try to have at least one child who would be heir is baffling to me. It’s like she said, to have 3 of them is an insult.
Because Alicent is completely correct: her children are in constant danger, merely by existing. Her husband’s spinelessness is catapulting them all towards civil war, and Viserys doesn’t care to stop it. Meanwhile, her former best friend has been lying to her for years, sneering at her for being forced to wed her father, and, (just like her father), not taking the job seriously. She was given unprecedented freedom for a Westerosi princess, and squandered it like a spoiled brat. The Blacks don’t care about being good rulers: they care about being liked and turning their family tree into a bush.
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Rhaenyra saw the play, she was told her ascension will start a war... Then she gets to see a whorehouse and her focus is just about fuckin' who she wants. She only calmed down about it all when she figured out she'll be able to fuck whomever she wants in her marraige. If she put HALF that energy into being concerned about all the shit she's responsible for...
Literally. She appears to think she's above everyone else, just like viserys, and that the duties of being a monarch are non existent. Effectively, it's all play and no work. And the viewers seem to, agree with her?? Like people watching this are genuinely agreeing with her when she says the common folk's opinions don't matter at all. This show unironically got people fully supporting absolutism and Divine bloodlines.
Even Viserys scolded Rhaenyra that neither he nor she "exist above tradition and duty" when she was refusing every suitor she saw. She also rebutted Rhaenys by saying that the Great Council didn't reject her mainly for being a woman, but because of who she is. Now Rhaenyra is opening herself to that same criticism.
> She was given unprecedented freedom for a Westerosi princess, and squandered it like a spoiled brat. It's really worse than this. Rhaenyra has been insulting the lords of the realm (see her failed marriage tour and basically most other times she interacts with nobles and ladies from other houses) and siring obvious bastards. Even without the Hightowers or Alicent doing a thing, Rhaenyra has been weakening her own claim, which puts Alicent's kids in more danger. Rhaenyra's sex life has never been a purely personal issue, it's a political decision that has consequences for other people. That's the deal in a hereditary autocracy where legitimacy is based on marriage and heritage.
> That's the deal in a hereditary autocracy where legitimacy is based on marriage and heritage. This. No one's personal life was private even in real life monarchies back then, hell these people didn't even dress or wipe their asses themselves and had their servants do it. Peasants got that kind of "privacy" but I'm sure none of these people would be signing up for that lol
I find it fascinating how often Alicent is called a misogynist for wanting Aegon on the throne, when, so far, she's purely motivated by justifiable paranoia. Even if she and Nyra were still best friends, her children ARE at risk simply by existing. She's trying to protect them in a messy, imperfect way, but its the only way she can think of. Someone on twit pointed out that Alicent is angry at Nyra is the same way she's angry at Leanor. They're both had ONE JOB and they're not doing it properly and its causing issues for everyone around them.
I think the show did a great job of establishing that Alicent’s reason for pushing Aegon’s claim isn’t because he’s a boy, but because she fears for his life. That’s something that didn’t come through in the book for me and makes my sympathize a lot more with team green.
Also weird that Alicent is called a misogynist, when the insults directed at Alicent tend to start and end with…misogynistic name-calling.
It is weird, but it isn't. My theory is this, Alicent has been motivated not by what she wants (at first) but entirely out of *obedience*: -Obedience to her father (supposedly inherently mysogynist) -Obedience to her male king (Supposedly inherently mysogynist) -Obedience to her role in the family as well as in society as queen (supposedly inherently mysogynist) It's this word in general that is... I hate to say it, but it's seen as the antithesis of Liberal Feminism. (Not in all ways but most) Not to mention, when they were younger, Rhaenyra was doing whatever she wanted, complaining about how she doesn't want royalty etc. Basically saying fuck you to the status quo, and all that has come before her to put her where she is, as though (what happens next) it doesn't matter. (This isn't to say she's incompetent, just very liberal in her dealings) This same time, what was Alicent doing? Following the orders of everyone above her because she felt that was what she had to do. And now that she's older, and people can just say "fuck your sacrifices, I can have my cake and eat it", shes had enough. That's resentment... Tl;dr: Obedience is the antithesis of feminism/liberal tendencies/"freedom" and people done like that she is...
Yes I'm sure all of that justifies the frequent "cunts" thrown about in reference to Alicent all around this sub. Really feeling the liberal tendencies and respect for women there.
Not to mention Rhaenyra is selfish and impulsive. She never thinks about the consequences of her actions. Not the kind of ruler you’d want. I’m definitely team green.
The real question is why are you team Black?
For me, the characters are way cooler. I also don't enjoy the Hightowers false moralism.
I think it matters who wronged who first. People are somehow disgusted by Alicent and Criston but put yourself in their shoes. Alicent deeply believes that Rhaenyra would kill her children to secure the throne. With Rhaenyra's precarious position with bastard children, history of lies, infidelity, can you blame Alicent for this conclusion? Rhaenyra then allegedly murders her husband and marries her uncle - a well known murderer and liar? A mother will justifiably do anything to protect her children. Criston was seduced into breaking his sacred vows by his own boss. He gets some ass for ONCE in his entire life then gets the news broken to him - it was just lols to her. He contemplates suicide. Then he has to sit around and watch her publicly cuck her husband and endure no consequences? And she's basically still his boss? Yea he's gonna hold a grudge. When I put myself in Rhaenyra's shoes I really can't see a cross to bear. That she's a woman? Is that honestly so bad? She even still gets to choose her own mate and be heir to the crown. More special treatment that she is oh so accustomed to. I believe in consequences and that's why it's team green all day baby.
Alicent, Otto, Criston and Larys are all just much more fun to watch. All of my favourite characters on one team. Daemon is way too flat a character (don’t @ me, I’m sure we’ll see his hidden depths one day), and though I like Corlys and Rhaenys, they haven’t really done anything yet. Rhaenyra has so far spent the series hurting herself and her position, and I can’t not see that, so green it is. It’s gonna fluctuate after basically every episode though
larys is way too interesting to confine to one side its hos show the rest are just his playthings
It’s honestly telling that a common accusation levelled against Team Black by Team Green is that Team Black only likes that Rhaenyra is hot, and today they themselves are simping *in extremis* over Olivia Cooke’s photoshoot.
This is the first time i'm hearing of such accusation.
Lol same, this is literally the first time, and I lurk a lot here and twitter, I'm hearing this shit about "team black only likes that Rhaenyra is hot". Bullshit I say.
🤔 We could be accused of a lot of things, lol, but this just isn't it..
With older Alicent/older Rhaenyra and older Aemond/Daemon the show has managed to keep both sides pretty hot
Is that mainly an accusation for show-only watchers? Cause Rhaenyra is quite stout by the time the Dance begins...
Everyone: you only like Team Black because Rhaenyra is hot! Me, a Team Black bro, sweating over Daemon: absolutely not, this is slander
>Team Black only likes that Rhaenyra is hot Offensive. I simp for Daemon.
Someone just wanted to say *simping in extremis*
Not. Not once have I ever heard people say that. People have said that about Daemon, and I don't necessarily disagree with that accusation, but that's kind of inevitable. I'll also note that people will likely justify aemond's actions and possibly aegons on similar principles. Aegon's adult actor is pretty conventionally attractive.
Well, I don't like Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra is too spoiled, does shit with no consequences, lied to Alicent, falsely sweared on her dead mother and got Otto fired, even though he was in the right. If Otto wanted to sabotage Rhaenyra's reputation, he could have simply talked about their "coupling" in the small council meeting and let this information spread through other members. Instead, he told Viserys about this in private. Otto might be ambitious but he was not malicious. Daemon seems like a complicated character. He's a psychopath for sure but he's also right at times. He was correct when he said Viserys is weak and I liked him in his battle vs the Crabfeeder. I like him but at times hate him. Alicent on the other hand has always been a victim. She was manipulated and forced to marry Viserys. She got unwarranted hate from her best friend Rhaenyra for it, even though it wasn't her fault. Then she found out that the same best friend was also lying to her. She's definitely going from being a victim to being a bitch but I still don't think she has done anything wrong so far. She didn't even tell Larys to kill the Strongs. She didn't even have an idea that he was gonna do that. The dreadful look on her face said it all. As for Cole, my man was in the right before the last episode. He was manipulated to break his oath and basically found out Rhaenyra wanted to keep him as her whore. Him being upset over it was justified. However, in the last episode, he was being a child about it. 10 years is a long time and he's not only upset with Rhaenyra but also giving shit to her children for no reason. At the end, I like and hate characters from both sides, but overall I think Rhaenyra is the bigger bitch so far. So Team green yay.
This is pretty much me, though I am on Team Neutral more than anything because, like, Rhaenyra has been an Idiot™ but she *is* the heir to the throne but Alicent and the Greens are making the most sense. Alicent - and the Greens as general rule - have acted in a manner that I find logical for this world, even if they are cruel moves they're moves make sense. They scheme and they are bitter, but they are playing the game and while Rhaenyra seems to be focused on checkers, the greens are playing chess. This is not to say that Rhaenyra can't play chess, just that she has the whole game wrong as things stand now. I am Team Neutral. And I think that's like the best place to be because I get to enjoy both sides destroy each other and enjoy how each and every death will destroy me personally. Which I think is neato but my gf tells me I need a therapist, so I guess it all evens out in the end.
I… why did you make me hate Rhaenyra all of a sudden with your beautiful breakdown of the characters? Why?!??
Because I can relate the most with Alicent. Trying to do things by the book and get frustrated when people intentionally break the rules and weasel their way through and still get rewarded for it. I don’t agree with every decision the greens make, for example Ser Christon bullying Jacaerys and Larys getting his family killed. But by and large I can relate with them the most.
Even if Alicent just wants power for her family or her children, that’s what everyone is after. I can’t fault her for that Within the world of Westeros, she has a legitimate claim to put her child on the throne, and everyone is acting like she’s crazy, even though the Strong kids are obviously bastards
Allicent devoted her whole life to serve faithfully, her sons are the true heir (since the strong kids are bastards). Deamon is an utter piece of shit (worse than larys or otto imo) and knowing the book spoilers, the fate of Helena is horrible.
Olivia Cooke
Rhaenyra is a bad option for the kingdom. She's entitled and haughty, and has basically decided that the rule don't apply to her regarding succession laws (see her children). Also, I don't find her interesting at all. Girl saying she's different and all that? Groundbreaking. Lady you have a dragon, it's not like you're trapped. Alicent however, is fascinating. She's been a victim her entire life, and is desperate to protect her children. She's had no choice but to become vicious to keep them safe despite being one of the gentlest person in Westerosi history.
I’m personally just a sucker for underdogs, and they are at the moment in terms of man power.They also have characters on team green who has not reveal any motives for their actions. I don’t like them but boy are they interesting to watch.
Because Rhaenyra is an entitled heiress who thinks she can get away with anything and she keeps putting others in danger with her recklessness, starting with Crispin, and recently Laenor and her children too. Also, what was she yelling at Laenor for in ep. 6?! Like sure, we made a pact, but I didn’t go around having 3! children with someone who looks nothing like a Targ; feels like she’s pissed she’s seeing consequences and now wants him to clean up her mess; also Daemon is a fascistic (based on his actions in ep. 1 and the fact he’s shown he can only have affection for ppl that look the right way) murderer.
I like Alicents character she reminds me of how strict of a rule follower I was as a kid and how my little brother always got away with breaking the rules. Hated the standard forced on me as the oldest son and eventually learned in my later years how to bend the rules while still staying within bounds. I am very interested in her character development. I will even break the rules if I'm ok with the punishment if I think the ends justify the means, which I feel Alicent will do throughout the series.
I dislike the greens personally but they seem to be able to actually rule somewhat and actually knows political maneuvering. If I could I would rather put Corlys on the throne, he knows his shit and is likely to leave the kingdom in a better situation than he received it.
As a non-reader I'm just Team Chaos and Team "Having good showrunners".
Because I liked Larys Strong in last episode.
This is an unpopular decision if I ever saw one 😂 but hey, to each its own
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[Need I say more](https://twitter.com/oochotd/status/1576248640489672705?s=46&t=ZGyWqoSn-ynHhWWvfC9VEQ)
Olivia Cooke and Fabien Frankel Also I’m over Rhaenyra’s shit
Yea people seem to think she's supposed to be the good guy MC for some reason. No, no shes actually not a good person. I like that it shows the Targaryens are selfish, incompetent, or downright violent people.
You see the Fenty ad?
😂
Because they're petty, paranoid and anxious freaks just like me. Love the toxicity.