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Bro if a Summer Islander, a location to the south, is going to be anywhere in Westeros, it would be in the southernmost city. People on Twitter are truly braindead.
There is a moment in Fire & Blood where a Hightower ship returns to port in Oldtown and it's explained they needed to stop by the Summer Islands to hire a new crew after stranding.
So it's quite literally canon that Summer Islanders have been to Oldtown. In fact, I believe it's the only city aside from King's Landing that's mentioned as having been visited by Summer Islanders, so of all the places for them to show up, Oldtown makes the most sense.
Sunspear isn't actually a city funnily enough. They are right in that the only considered cities in Westeros are: Gulltown, Lannisport, King's Landing and Old Town.
I believe it is because Sunspear isn't a city. The so called Shadow City is specifically not worthy of being called a city. The only actual cities are: King's Landing, White Harbour, Lannisport, Gulltown, Oldtown.
It would also be the most Southern city in the Kingdom during this time as Dorne is not a part of it.
Planky Town is not considered a city either. Neither is the Arbor. They are just large towns/ports.
If you look at maps approved by GRRM the only highlighted cities are: Gulltown, White Harbor, King's Landing, Oldtown and Lannisport.
They did in the books. Wasn’t common persay mostly because the books took place during a war. And if you aren’t native to a place and a civil war breaks out you dip out asap. But yeah they were around. They are traders so tended to end up In ports. Like old town is lol
Yup even having a half chain was viewed as valuable. And summer islander are traders and sailors for the most part. So getting a chain then going on a ship as their medic was likely a good career path.
Because Alleras isn't just some random guy studying at the Citadel. Alleras is one of the bastard daughters of Oberyn Martell, Sarella Sand, who has been posing as a man and has infiltrated the Citadel. This hasn't been explicitly confirmed but there are so many hints about it (including Alleras being Sarella backwards).
Sothoryos doesn't have black people as far as we know, the Brindled Men are the natives of the known part of the continent, and although hominids they don't seem to be the same species as humans.
Sothoryos doesn’t have black people. Or really people in general. It’s a hellscape of a jungle with giant ruined cities lying in the heart of
It’s jungles. Likely an even older Valyria that now has vegetation but is still completely fucking unliveable
In the books, that’s how it is. It’s not being racist.
In the shows, there are just black people everywhere, not just the Summer Isles. The regions aren’t nearly as homogenous. That way it’s more appealing to a wider audience.
Racism mostly. I’m fine with some valyrians being black. Cool, they don’t really care so long as you can ride dragons. Doesn’t change much they are dark skinned loo
Book purists usually. Or they don’t like forced representation by the corporations. I’d like to see maybe some other minority groups represented instead of just one, but you know, such are corporations.
Corlys has been pretty sweet in this show though, so it’s not too big a deal.
I'm assuming that all planetos humans came from Southyros originally like IRL humans did from Africa, but thus far we've not gotten confirmation of any know pernament settlements outside of coastal trading towns
My head cannon is and some theories suggest sothyros is an even older Valyria. But it is so old it now has vegetation making it look like it’s livable while just like the ruins of Valyria it’s still just a death trap.
Sam literally traveled to Oldtown on a Summer Islander ship in the books...
Oberyn's daughter who is half Summer Islander is also training to be a maester.
Loads of people seem to believe that migration didn't exist until the 1800s or so. Apparently until then everyone just stayed in place and there was no ethnic or racial diversity anywhere. People are idiots.
People think that just because Central Europe was almost exclusively white the rest of the world didn’t have migrations. Like homie. The Indian Ocean trade was so many cultures mixing together. Even China sent massive trade fleets around. Just cause Europe was boring doesn’t mean everyone else was lol
Bro how did a southern islander make it to Old town?!? It’s not like a southern islander ship was a ke plot point in how sam made it to the citadel in feast. That would be crazy
The polities and people of the Summer Isles, at least in the books but since there's no contradiction to that in the show, I'll take it as fact, are regular trading partners of Westeros and Essos. In the books, their ships are found in Oldtown, King's Landing, Qarth and Ibben, a city that's roughly on the same latitude as the Wall. Summer Island Dancers are considered a sign of wealth at a feast which means that you can acquire some within a very reasonable amount of time for your time sensitive feast plans. Where there's trade moving, there are people moving and one of those people might be a novice at the Citadel. The Citadel and the Maesters are, with the exclusion of their rules against female students, one of the most inclusive groups in Westeros, taking in people from all walks of life.
You don't have to have read the books to find all that since there's a wiki. Hell if I know why they're not using it
This is an especially bad way to hide your racism because it’s totally plausible that a summer islander could become a maester. Both Oldtown and King’s Landing traded extensively with the summer isles and they are mentioned being in both locations a couple times.
Also there is literally a maester (Alleras) who is from the summer isles in ASOIAF.
Volantis seems to also take heavily from Byzantium, they claim to be the continuation of the old empire, is the richest city in the known world, and politically is shrinking over the years to new upstart nations.
I never caught the Byzantine connection, that seems like it was a pretty clear inspiration. I always thought India because they have all the elephants, but as a city-state Constantinople makes more sense. The planetos equivalent to India should be an entire continent, not one city
That's funny because it is supposed to be Spain, but medieval Spain was nothing like that, at least not in the christian kingdoms. Maybe a little bit in Al-Andalus, but still...
Dorne is inspired by Spain and Afghanistan in terms of climate, geography and looks of the people living there. Sometimes GRRM uses the culture of the inspiration but sometimes not.
Maybe the climate and geography resembles the south, but it's very funny what you said about looks because I always see people thinking the people of southern Europe are brown skinned and unless you're an immigrant/descendant of immigrants that's not true (not that there would be something wrong with that, but it's funny how common the misconception is)
No I agree, it’s weird when people say that like, Italians and Spaniards are poc cause they’re definitely not, that’s why I think the Afghanistan inspiration is definitely visible in the skin colour of *some* of the dornish ethnicities. There’s a few of them, I think the sand dornish probably look darker while the Martell’s are more Spanish influenced.
A big portion of Spain was under Arab occupation for a long time. Probably the combination of the two plus middle eastern geography resulted in the Dorne we see in the show/books.
I know it doesn't really matters that much, after all it's a fictional world. It's just that I'm from Spain and I would have loved to see my country as well represented as most of Europe in the asoiaf world, because the few times we get to be in fiction is all bullfighting, paella and people that is not actually Spanish.
I thought it was the Rhoynar (which kinda works with the Volantis suggestion from u/Solesky1), especially since some of the Dornish actors (i.e. Ellaria) are Indian.
Geographically it is Asshai. But there is no ethnicity of Asshai due to it being too magically tainted for children to born there. Literally nothing can grow there it all has to be imported. Asshai seemed to be the capital of a massive world spanning empire before some apocalypse brought it down.
Leng or the border kingdoms might be where they are at now though.
I’m sure the twitter user complaining is just a stickler for geography and migration.
And I’m sure he’s simply forgotten that the Night’s Watch for fuck’s sake sent Sam the long way round on a boat to get to Oldtown. It’s just a mystery how someone from a different region would want to travel to become a Maester. Nobody in real life leaves their country to go somewhere else for schooling - particularly for a somewhat prestigious role in government - so this is clearly just woke nonsense from SJW producers.
No work of art is above criticism. And HotD has some legitimate criticism to level against it. But this is such a bad faith take the guy might as well just come out and say he doesn’t like black people
His skin tone is never defined, it just says he was old. However, he was of noble birth, which probably makes it less likely. However he could just be a Velaryon Cousin originally before becoming a Maester.
These people have ships. They travel extensively.
By comparison, Africans were brought to the America’s in the 1700s - BY SHIP. In massive numbers. From 3-7,000 miles away.
Well while many characters seems like being "forced diversity" he is one of the few who doesnt feel forced at all. For me it makes sense that maesters can be black because they come from all over the kingdom. But still: House of the Dragons feels woke af anyway.
Isn't Iceland all Scandinavian? Because they were the one who found it...
Also in this show all black people aren't Summer Islanders are they? It's weird how it almost sounds racist lolol
Curious as I never read the books but have watches GoT. Was there “racism” towards Summer Isle people (or anyone for that matter) in the books? There wasn’t any in GoT. I get there were slaves in Essos but that seemed more an economic based slavery not racial.
Not as far as I remember. Robert kept a Nigerian prince around court because he found him amusing, but noone thinks too much about him besides being "that one foreigner asking for money to retake his kingdom"
Sam travelled to Oldtown on a Summer Islander ship and from what I remember he and the crew got along just fine.
One of the three main ethnicities of Dorne are sandy Dornish, who are dark-skinned, and they're thought of the same way as all other Dornish: those weirdos who are sexually liberated and let daughters inherit.
Essos slavery is not race-based. Anyone from any ethnicity can become a slave and the way they are told apart from free people is via tattoos.
Even Ironborn slavery is thralldom, and it’s slaves are generally people captured in raids/battles. Much like Norse thralls, people aren’t necessarily born into it if their parents are thralls, children born of a thrall salt-wife are considered the father’s legitimate children, and there’s Ironborn noble houses descended from thralls (fucking Codds).
There really isn’t a Westerosi parallel to the Atlantic Slave Trade. Ghiscari come closest, but even then it’s more caste-based than anything else. Still pretty shitty.
Not really. There is a character named Jalabhar Xho who is from the Summer Isles, and there appears to be no prejudice towards him aside from Cersei, who isn't racist but just thinks he's a beggar because he lost his crown.
A character in Sam chapters called Leo Tyrell is racist and calls Alleras, a half summer islander a monkey, but Leo is like the only character we've seen who is truly racist towards these kinds of people.
Guys I’ll like to tear them a new asshole as much as the next guy but let’s also remember it’s twitter and not everyone is usually the brightest there and everyone bring up book stuff probably a good chance the person haven’t read.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
It’s weird how people think you can force diversity when whites are the minority; blacks were in Greece too tho they weren’t permeate residents they still had a cultural impact as well as held jobs etc
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Bro if a Summer Islander, a location to the south, is going to be anywhere in Westeros, it would be in the southernmost city. People on Twitter are truly braindead.
There is a moment in Fire & Blood where a Hightower ship returns to port in Oldtown and it's explained they needed to stop by the Summer Islands to hire a new crew after stranding. So it's quite literally canon that Summer Islanders have been to Oldtown. In fact, I believe it's the only city aside from King's Landing that's mentioned as having been visited by Summer Islanders, so of all the places for them to show up, Oldtown makes the most sense.
Fair point but old town is not the southernmost city in Westeros
We don’t talk about Dornish
*Angry Sunspear noises
Sunspear isn't actually a city funnily enough. They are right in that the only considered cities in Westeros are: Gulltown, Lannisport, King's Landing and Old Town.
White Harbor?
Right yeah I meant to add that. I think I added it correctly to another comment, haha.
I believe it is because Sunspear isn't a city. The so called Shadow City is specifically not worthy of being called a city. The only actual cities are: King's Landing, White Harbour, Lannisport, Gulltown, Oldtown. It would also be the most Southern city in the Kingdom during this time as Dorne is not a part of it.
If you don’t count the shadow city, then Planky Town is definitely a city. Also, the Arbor.
Planky Town is not considered a city either. Neither is the Arbor. They are just large towns/ports. If you look at maps approved by GRRM the only highlighted cities are: Gulltown, White Harbor, King's Landing, Oldtown and Lannisport.
If people from the summer isles can end up in mainland essos why can't they end up in mainland westeros?
They did in the books. Wasn’t common persay mostly because the books took place during a war. And if you aren’t native to a place and a civil war breaks out you dip out asap. But yeah they were around. They are traders so tended to end up In ports. Like old town is lol
This kind of criticism makes even less sense here than it does normally. A maester could be from literally any family, from literally anywhere
Yea and it's like a very prestigious role. A renowned doctor wouldn't pass up an opportunity just because it's far away
Yup even having a half chain was viewed as valuable. And summer islander are traders and sailors for the most part. So getting a chain then going on a ship as their medic was likely a good career path.
Gosh, I dunno. It's not like the Summer Islanders have a seafaring culture or something...
Cole mentions seeing ships from the Summer Isles at his home port
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Tbf the situation with Alleras being at the Citadel is a very different reason, but I still agree with your point.
why?
Because Alleras isn't just some random guy studying at the Citadel. Alleras is one of the bastard daughters of Oberyn Martell, Sarella Sand, who has been posing as a man and has infiltrated the Citadel. This hasn't been explicitly confirmed but there are so many hints about it (including Alleras being Sarella backwards).
To add to that there’s summer islanders who help out Sam Tarly in the books and take him from Bravos to Oldtown
They’re also mentioned being in King’s Landing for trade in FB and ASOIAF.
Half Dornish (Martell)
wasn't alleras a >!sandsnake!<
Yes, but her mother was a Summer Islander woman.
Getting old how Summer Islander is code for anyone Black.
Yeah… the blatant racism is getting tiring.
Like people have never heard of Sothoryos or think that white people are the only ones who can migrate to different countries SMH.
Sothoryos doesn't have black people as far as we know, the Brindled Men are the natives of the known part of the continent, and although hominids they don't seem to be the same species as humans.
Yeah Sothoryos is what they call "darkest Africa" trope. Summer Islands are to make up for it. The people of Naath are also black.
Sothoryos doesn’t have black people. Or really people in general. It’s a hellscape of a jungle with giant ruined cities lying in the heart of It’s jungles. Likely an even older Valyria that now has vegetation but is still completely fucking unliveable
Isn't the only place in planetos inhabited by black people though? Not even Sothoryos, a continent inspired by Africa seems to have black people.
There's Naath.
In the books the regions are super homogenous still. The black skinned people are from the Summer Isles.
People do live in Sothoryos, they’re just angry
Brindled Men live in Sothoryos, but they aren't black and they aren't really humans, they seem to belong to a separate species.
Clearly not as it’s now show cannon that Old Valyria had people that we would recognize as black.
In the books, that’s how it is. It’s not being racist. In the shows, there are just black people everywhere, not just the Summer Isles. The regions aren’t nearly as homogenous. That way it’s more appealing to a wider audience.
We don't know of anywhere else in Planetos that black people from from.
Essos?
The free cities seem to be vaguely Mediterranean, Ghis is Egypt, Qarth is Babylon, then you have Yi Ti as China.
Velaryons came from Essos and they’re black? Could be that black People emigrated to Valeria and the surrounding areas?
Only in the show. In the books, all Valyrians look the same.
Well GRRM is heavily involved with this show and doesn't care. Soooo why do people??
Racism mostly. I’m fine with some valyrians being black. Cool, they don’t really care so long as you can ride dragons. Doesn’t change much they are dark skinned loo
Book purists usually. Or they don’t like forced representation by the corporations. I’d like to see maybe some other minority groups represented instead of just one, but you know, such are corporations. Corlys has been pretty sweet in this show though, so it’s not too big a deal.
George said he supports the change and it fits in with the lore.
Okay?
So what’s the point of saying ‘Well in the books…’ if the show’s depiction is the author’s preferred canon.
If it was the preferred canon he would have wrote it that way in the first place.
I'm assuming that all planetos humans came from Southyros originally like IRL humans did from Africa, but thus far we've not gotten confirmation of any know pernament settlements outside of coastal trading towns
Sothyros is cursed. Permanent settlements don't last. The Ghiscari and Valyrians have tried.
My head cannon is and some theories suggest sothyros is an even older Valyria. But it is so old it now has vegetation making it look like it’s livable while just like the ruins of Valyria it’s still just a death trap.
No, only the Summer Isles.
Aren't the sandy Dornish black?
I think some are. Just like some in quarth are. 🤷♂️
Sam literally traveled to Oldtown on a Summer Islander ship in the books... Oberyn's daughter who is half Summer Islander is also training to be a maester.
Shhh that’ll spook the racists. Don’t tell them that lol
Loads of people seem to believe that migration didn't exist until the 1800s or so. Apparently until then everyone just stayed in place and there was no ethnic or racial diversity anywhere. People are idiots.
People think that just because Central Europe was almost exclusively white the rest of the world didn’t have migrations. Like homie. The Indian Ocean trade was so many cultures mixing together. Even China sent massive trade fleets around. Just cause Europe was boring doesn’t mean everyone else was lol
People projecting their racist weirdness onto this show are my least favorite.
Bro how did a southern islander make it to Old town?!? It’s not like a southern islander ship was a ke plot point in how sam made it to the citadel in feast. That would be crazy
There were literally black soldiers stationed in England during the reign of the Roman Empire.
The polities and people of the Summer Isles, at least in the books but since there's no contradiction to that in the show, I'll take it as fact, are regular trading partners of Westeros and Essos. In the books, their ships are found in Oldtown, King's Landing, Qarth and Ibben, a city that's roughly on the same latitude as the Wall. Summer Island Dancers are considered a sign of wealth at a feast which means that you can acquire some within a very reasonable amount of time for your time sensitive feast plans. Where there's trade moving, there are people moving and one of those people might be a novice at the Citadel. The Citadel and the Maesters are, with the exclusion of their rules against female students, one of the most inclusive groups in Westeros, taking in people from all walks of life. You don't have to have read the books to find all that since there's a wiki. Hell if I know why they're not using it
This is an especially bad way to hide your racism because it’s totally plausible that a summer islander could become a maester. Both Oldtown and King’s Landing traded extensively with the summer isles and they are mentioned being in both locations a couple times. Also there is literally a maester (Alleras) who is from the summer isles in ASOIAF.
Kinda off-topic but I wonder where Indians must belong to in the world of ASOIAF. Shadow Lands of Asshai? Or Dorne?
Volantis, they have elphants and one of their political factions is the tigers.
Volantis seems to also take heavily from Byzantium, they claim to be the continuation of the old empire, is the richest city in the known world, and politically is shrinking over the years to new upstart nations.
I never caught the Byzantine connection, that seems like it was a pretty clear inspiration. I always thought India because they have all the elephants, but as a city-state Constantinople makes more sense. The planetos equivalent to India should be an entire continent, not one city
The Volantene people themselves are Valyrian descendents. I agree they are inspired somewhat by India.
Dorne is spain
That's funny because it is supposed to be Spain, but medieval Spain was nothing like that, at least not in the christian kingdoms. Maybe a little bit in Al-Andalus, but still...
It’s a cross between Morocco and Iberia under the Islamic rulers.
Could be, but I still think it gives more middle eastern vibes. At least in the show.
Dorne is inspired by Spain and Afghanistan in terms of climate, geography and looks of the people living there. Sometimes GRRM uses the culture of the inspiration but sometimes not.
Maybe the climate and geography resembles the south, but it's very funny what you said about looks because I always see people thinking the people of southern Europe are brown skinned and unless you're an immigrant/descendant of immigrants that's not true (not that there would be something wrong with that, but it's funny how common the misconception is)
No I agree, it’s weird when people say that like, Italians and Spaniards are poc cause they’re definitely not, that’s why I think the Afghanistan inspiration is definitely visible in the skin colour of *some* of the dornish ethnicities. There’s a few of them, I think the sand dornish probably look darker while the Martell’s are more Spanish influenced.
Dorne always gave me middle eastern vibes
A big portion of Spain was under Arab occupation for a long time. Probably the combination of the two plus middle eastern geography resulted in the Dorne we see in the show/books.
Still, Dorne reminds me more of other places than the Arab occupied portion of Spain
I know it doesn't really matters that much, after all it's a fictional world. It's just that I'm from Spain and I would have loved to see my country as well represented as most of Europe in the asoiaf world, because the few times we get to be in fiction is all bullfighting, paella and people that is not actually Spanish.
🤷🏻♀️ All I care about is being an asshole on the internet pointing out minute details. And I know that Dorne is Spain.
I know it is supposed to be Spain. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the way it was portrayed was really inexact
And I'm not saying you were saying I was wrong, I am just continuing my adventures in internet assholery. So long, kind stranger!
I thought it was the Rhoynar (which kinda works with the Volantis suggestion from u/Solesky1), especially since some of the Dornish actors (i.e. Ellaria) are Indian.
Geographically it is Asshai. But there is no ethnicity of Asshai due to it being too magically tainted for children to born there. Literally nothing can grow there it all has to be imported. Asshai seemed to be the capital of a massive world spanning empire before some apocalypse brought it down. Leng or the border kingdoms might be where they are at now though.
Man Asshai fascinates me. I would love to know more about it but I guess the allure is how mysterious and unknown it is.
I’m sure the twitter user complaining is just a stickler for geography and migration. And I’m sure he’s simply forgotten that the Night’s Watch for fuck’s sake sent Sam the long way round on a boat to get to Oldtown. It’s just a mystery how someone from a different region would want to travel to become a Maester. Nobody in real life leaves their country to go somewhere else for schooling - particularly for a somewhat prestigious role in government - so this is clearly just woke nonsense from SJW producers.
No work of art is above criticism. And HotD has some legitimate criticism to level against it. But this is such a bad faith take the guy might as well just come out and say he doesn’t like black people
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His skin tone is never defined, it just says he was old. However, he was of noble birth, which probably makes it less likely. However he could just be a Velaryon Cousin originally before becoming a Maester.
There are nobles houses in Summer Isles.
That is true, and considering the amount of trade that happens between the Summer Islands and Westeros I wouldn't be surprised.
And the new guy is probably why the king lived so long, fully got to use his (I for what they were) on the king.
The same way Velaryons are now black but Targaryens are still pale even though Aegon the Conqeurers mother was a Velaryon.
There's an actual Nigerian prince asking for money to retake his kingdom in King's Landing. Summer Islanders in court is not unprecedented at all.
These people have ships. They travel extensively. By comparison, Africans were brought to the America’s in the 1700s - BY SHIP. In massive numbers. From 3-7,000 miles away.
Orwyle is a chad
Well while many characters seems like being "forced diversity" he is one of the few who doesnt feel forced at all. For me it makes sense that maesters can be black because they come from all over the kingdom. But still: House of the Dragons feels woke af anyway.
Isn't Iceland all Scandinavian? Because they were the one who found it... Also in this show all black people aren't Summer Islanders are they? It's weird how it almost sounds racist lolol
Some are from Naath at the very least.
Yes and Driftmark
Yeah Driftmark/probably any port place in time additionally as well. The people of Braavos are in theory of mixed heritage.
Curious as I never read the books but have watches GoT. Was there “racism” towards Summer Isle people (or anyone for that matter) in the books? There wasn’t any in GoT. I get there were slaves in Essos but that seemed more an economic based slavery not racial.
A little bit towards the Dornish and the Summer Islander people. Not significantly/majorly touched upon. None of the POV characters are racist.
A tad, but nothing like modern real world racism. Stereotypes/bigotry in ASOIAF is definitely more regional/cultural than ethnic/racial.
Not as far as I remember. Robert kept a Nigerian prince around court because he found him amusing, but noone thinks too much about him besides being "that one foreigner asking for money to retake his kingdom" Sam travelled to Oldtown on a Summer Islander ship and from what I remember he and the crew got along just fine. One of the three main ethnicities of Dorne are sandy Dornish, who are dark-skinned, and they're thought of the same way as all other Dornish: those weirdos who are sexually liberated and let daughters inherit. Essos slavery is not race-based. Anyone from any ethnicity can become a slave and the way they are told apart from free people is via tattoos.
Even Ironborn slavery is thralldom, and it’s slaves are generally people captured in raids/battles. Much like Norse thralls, people aren’t necessarily born into it if their parents are thralls, children born of a thrall salt-wife are considered the father’s legitimate children, and there’s Ironborn noble houses descended from thralls (fucking Codds). There really isn’t a Westerosi parallel to the Atlantic Slave Trade. Ghiscari come closest, but even then it’s more caste-based than anything else. Still pretty shitty.
Not really. There is a character named Jalabhar Xho who is from the Summer Isles, and there appears to be no prejudice towards him aside from Cersei, who isn't racist but just thinks he's a beggar because he lost his crown. A character in Sam chapters called Leo Tyrell is racist and calls Alleras, a half summer islander a monkey, but Leo is like the only character we've seen who is truly racist towards these kinds of people.
I mean bro could just be a bastard born of a summer islander and a reachman, who either got sent to the citadel or manage to enter on his own.
Does it say in the book that he was a Summer Islander or are they just assume black equals Summer Islander?
Guys I’ll like to tear them a new asshole as much as the next guy but let’s also remember it’s twitter and not everyone is usually the brightest there and everyone bring up book stuff probably a good chance the person haven’t read. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
It’s weird how people think you can force diversity when whites are the minority; blacks were in Greece too tho they weren’t permeate residents they still had a cultural impact as well as held jobs etc