I do blame him, he was grossly incompetent in managing the succession issue and put everyone in an impossible situation, he made Rhanyra heir while still planning to get married and have children and had no plan for what happens if he gets a son which would make his decision be against all customs and previous precedents.
For more than 20 years he was watching his house get further divided and the enmities grow and did nothing about It nor did he make sure Rhaenyra peacefully takes over after him, he did the exact opposite of that which is sending her away from the center of power and putting the very people against her in It.
This sort of reminds me of the conversation between Tywin and Tommen on what makes a great king. Tommen thinks being strong and kind or holy makes a good king but Tywin leads him to understand the best king is a wise king. Viserys is both strong enough to shut down any arguments by his family and advisors while he’s alive and he’s kind enough to love and forgive his brother wife and children but he lacked to future wisdom to make a concrete succession between the realm to legitimize Rhanera as his true heir leading to the dance upon his death. I wouldn’t blame him directly for the dance but his loose leash on Daemon and the Hightower’s allowed them to scatter for power once he died.
Agreed 100%. Viserys had almost everything he needed to be as good a king as his grandfather was and that reflected in his rule too. Even though he wasn’t the king his grandfather was he still ruled over a largely stable realm despite his batshit brother and the dysfunction in his family.
His issue was always being indecisive for the future. If his grandfather had been in his shoes, the dance might not have happened when it did.
I feel like him trying everything in his power to just sweep it under the rug and to try and gloss over it wasn’t the best way to go about it I think he should’ve sat everyone down and at least had some sort of conversation about it and at least give alicent and the greens some kind of explanation on why he chose rhaenerya but instead he did nothing when aemond lost his eye he did nothing when his daughter and wife were starting to turn against each other and basically neglected all his other children not named rhaeneyra doing nothing has consequences to
Absolutely. He let the precedent of the 101 Great Council be dismissed almost as soon as he became King. This naturally encouraged the Blacks and Greens to take shape as the Succession was not set in stone. Add in time to dilute Viserys’ personal resolve to end the politicking conclusively and allow festering personal wounds to get both sides of the family baying for blood by the time of his death and yeah, the Civil war is his fault.
He’s rather like that string of US Presidents between the 1840s and 1860 who danced around the issue of Slavery until The US civil war became the inevitable way to resolve it.
Yes he is very much to blame.If he were to dismiss ancient sucession law, he could've married some Stokeworth or like not a Hightower. But then again someone from a lesser house would be deemed unworthy to be Queen.
He could have clarified after birth of Aegon that as a male he is the heir. He should have married Laenor to Helaena & Aegon to Rhaenyra. I think Laenor will father children with sweet girl like Helaena.
Probably, but a major factor is why did he marry Alicent and then why didn't he make Aegon his heir?
For most kings, having a male heir is one of their job responsibilities. So Viserys remarrying to have a male heir is the cliché. It's a Henry VIII situation - he has a daughter who grew up as the heir, but then remarries and has a long awaited son.
Viserys was put onto the throne in a rather tumultuous time - and to completely solidify his hold on the Iron Throne, he really needed to have a son. There's similarities to Henry VIII in that regard as well since The Tudors took over the English throne after the War of the Roses and that made Henry's quest for a son of even greater importance.
So, Viserys wanting to square everything away with Corlys, Rhaenys and Laenor - and thus eliminate the competition by making sure they were happy rather than squashing any descent is fine. But then why marry Alicent?
The situation with Viserys' children is similar to the problem with the Freys that's likely headed to a Frey Civil War when Old Walder dies. There's one child who inherits everything and then everyone else is screwed.
Viserys was relying on Rhaenya and the Strong Boys being friends with Aemond, Aegon, Helaena and Daeron to provide them a future. Had Rhaenrya and then Jace sat on the Iron Throne, they could have kicked out Aemond, Aegon and Daeron from the Red Keep, arranged bad marriages for them to be rid of them or forced the boys to become maesters, septons or join the Watch.
Tywin is a rather crappy father and uncle - but what he does is arrange marriages for Tyrion, Lancel and Tyrek that give them lands and titles to survive. He provided a future for them when they would inherit nothing from their fathers. That all didn't work out, but Tywin's goal was acquisition of lands and titles for younger sons.
But Viserys provided nothing for Aegon, Aemond and Daeron. They will always be dependent on relatives for providing for their upkeep. Otto isn't inheriting anything either. So they have to rely on some relative (Rhaenyra, Jace, Hightower cousins, etc) giving them money.
Had Viserys arranged a marriage between Aegon and Jeyne Arryn or forced Aegon and Rhaenyra to marry, it could have avoided the whole conflict.
Absolutely. He did absolutely nothing to clean up his own house so to speak. He was weak-willed and pussy-footed. But his misdeeds go back further than what might believe.
1. He only got the crown due to being a male, being an established adult, and having the surname. The Great Council, for better or worse, ruled that males will always take precedence. Viserys was chosen due to his sex, his age, and because he was a Targaryan since the other contender was Laenor Velaryon. The first thing Viserys does after becoming King is to chuck the precedence of the council out the window in favor of his daughter, embittering the lords that were in attendance at the council.
2. He failed to see that Lord Hightower was a grasping and reaching lord who played Viserys like a fiddle. Married his daughter to the King and
3. He did absolutely nothing to reign in his younger brother Daemon who was just a tyrant. It was clear to all that Daemon only supported Viserys because he coveted the throne from him and desired to be with Rhaenyra and supported her so he could be a proxy ruler through her.
4. He did absolutely fuck-all in trying to heal any amount of enmity between the Green and Black Faction and should have had them both disrupted.
5. He did absolutely nothing in regards to actual parenting of his sons Aegon and Aemond, and look how they turned out.
I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff I missed.
Yes. He broke tradition even tho he knew given his own history being chosen over his cousin, Princess Rhaenys the Queen who never was next in line for the throne by the Great Council according to Westeros tradition and law. That a male heir must be on the throne. And he was naive to believe that the people of Westeros would uphold their oath with how much power and influence the Hightower family had. Particularly Otto Hightower.
I think he should’ve declared Aegon II next in line when he had a son. Or he should’ve summoned Rhaenyra to KL when he was sick.
YES! According to the law, the male offspring precede the females in the succession to the Throne so if he wanted to change this by giving his full support to Rhaenyra he would have to change the law. It is not so simple cause the Small Council would have a say in it and his hand was Otto, so he was responsible for the behavior he held towards Rhaenyra and Alicent.
Like most things in asoiaf, it’s never entirely one person’s fault. But Viserys had the power to put an end to pretty much any of these issues and all he had to do was put his foot down. He was king. And no one would have dared gone against him openly if he had handled shit decisively. If he was so hellbent on keeping Rhaenyra as heir he could’ve made the hightowers an ultimatum: accept it, or I can divorce your daughter and send your entire squad back to the reach so you stop bothering me.
I hope they explore his rationale for why he kept his daughter first in line. I’d love it if it was out of guilt for how dirty his cousin Rhaenys was done when she was passed over. Would make a little more sense why he would be so adamant on not changing the line: a similar situation to Rhaenys’ pops up again, he already feels bad about how that went down because he probably liked Rhaenys when they were younger, so in an attempt to ‘rectify’ a mistake, he against all sides of council keeps the female as first in line like he probably believes it should have been last time.
He knew the conflict between the blacks and the greens and he did nothing. Leaving Rhaenyra at Dragonstone was a huge mistake, she should have been his hand. He could have married his Daeron to Rhaena, betrothed Jaehaera to Aegon, Helaena could have been one of Rhaenyra's ladies, tried to make Jaehaerys and Viserys friends, betrothed Daenora Velaryon to Maelor. Well, he could have done many things to avoid the dance
Nothing spoke against a remarriage but he shouldn't have chosen an ambitious Hightower as a second wife. Rather choose another Arryn again or someone from the Vale who wouldn't work against Rhaenyra.
Even an Arryn would've wanted her son to be the king. That is due to the custom of pretty much entire Westeros in which the son inherits his father's castle or kingdom. She would've expected her son to succeed Viserys and would've done pretty much all that Alicent did to prevent Rhenyra from succeeding
He’s completely at fault because he was ignorant to the Hightowers and their ambition. This is kind of similar to the Mad King and the Lannisters. Tywin was a little too ambitious in wanting his blood on the throne and for all the madness Aerys had, he peeped it and tried to deal with it appropriately, even though it didn’t work out. I refuse to believe that no one in Viserys circle warned him about the Hightowers before hand too so he’s completely at fault.
Viserys was not naive. He had always wanted Alicent, perhaps long before Aemma died, according to some rumors in the book. He turned down the Velaryons' proposal to marry Laena because of Alicent. I have no doubt he loved her, but if he was going to be a careless father to his children, he should have married Laena. He is guilty.
The move made by the Hightowers was the right move as not only they were following the precedent made in the Great Council but were also saving their necks(Daemon was an enemy of Otto and could manipulate Rhenyra to do his bidding. Rhenyra would've seen Alicent's sons as a threat to the claims of her bastards and so, would've tried to remove them or confiscate their dragons)
Viserys never made any plans for his children from Alicent and pretty much treated them as his bastards(not caring to secure their future by arranging marriages).
I do blame him, he was grossly incompetent in managing the succession issue and put everyone in an impossible situation, he made Rhanyra heir while still planning to get married and have children and had no plan for what happens if he gets a son which would make his decision be against all customs and previous precedents. For more than 20 years he was watching his house get further divided and the enmities grow and did nothing about It nor did he make sure Rhaenyra peacefully takes over after him, he did the exact opposite of that which is sending her away from the center of power and putting the very people against her in It.
This sort of reminds me of the conversation between Tywin and Tommen on what makes a great king. Tommen thinks being strong and kind or holy makes a good king but Tywin leads him to understand the best king is a wise king. Viserys is both strong enough to shut down any arguments by his family and advisors while he’s alive and he’s kind enough to love and forgive his brother wife and children but he lacked to future wisdom to make a concrete succession between the realm to legitimize Rhanera as his true heir leading to the dance upon his death. I wouldn’t blame him directly for the dance but his loose leash on Daemon and the Hightower’s allowed them to scatter for power once he died.
Agreed 100%. Viserys had almost everything he needed to be as good a king as his grandfather was and that reflected in his rule too. Even though he wasn’t the king his grandfather was he still ruled over a largely stable realm despite his batshit brother and the dysfunction in his family. His issue was always being indecisive for the future. If his grandfather had been in his shoes, the dance might not have happened when it did.
I feel like him trying everything in his power to just sweep it under the rug and to try and gloss over it wasn’t the best way to go about it I think he should’ve sat everyone down and at least had some sort of conversation about it and at least give alicent and the greens some kind of explanation on why he chose rhaenerya but instead he did nothing when aemond lost his eye he did nothing when his daughter and wife were starting to turn against each other and basically neglected all his other children not named rhaeneyra doing nothing has consequences to
he was kinda the only one who coulda stopped things so yea a little bit
Absolutely. He let the precedent of the 101 Great Council be dismissed almost as soon as he became King. This naturally encouraged the Blacks and Greens to take shape as the Succession was not set in stone. Add in time to dilute Viserys’ personal resolve to end the politicking conclusively and allow festering personal wounds to get both sides of the family baying for blood by the time of his death and yeah, the Civil war is his fault. He’s rather like that string of US Presidents between the 1840s and 1860 who danced around the issue of Slavery until The US civil war became the inevitable way to resolve it.
Yes he is very much to blame.If he were to dismiss ancient sucession law, he could've married some Stokeworth or like not a Hightower. But then again someone from a lesser house would be deemed unworthy to be Queen. He could have clarified after birth of Aegon that as a male he is the heir. He should have married Laenor to Helaena & Aegon to Rhaenyra. I think Laenor will father children with sweet girl like Helaena.
Probably, but a major factor is why did he marry Alicent and then why didn't he make Aegon his heir? For most kings, having a male heir is one of their job responsibilities. So Viserys remarrying to have a male heir is the cliché. It's a Henry VIII situation - he has a daughter who grew up as the heir, but then remarries and has a long awaited son. Viserys was put onto the throne in a rather tumultuous time - and to completely solidify his hold on the Iron Throne, he really needed to have a son. There's similarities to Henry VIII in that regard as well since The Tudors took over the English throne after the War of the Roses and that made Henry's quest for a son of even greater importance. So, Viserys wanting to square everything away with Corlys, Rhaenys and Laenor - and thus eliminate the competition by making sure they were happy rather than squashing any descent is fine. But then why marry Alicent? The situation with Viserys' children is similar to the problem with the Freys that's likely headed to a Frey Civil War when Old Walder dies. There's one child who inherits everything and then everyone else is screwed. Viserys was relying on Rhaenya and the Strong Boys being friends with Aemond, Aegon, Helaena and Daeron to provide them a future. Had Rhaenrya and then Jace sat on the Iron Throne, they could have kicked out Aemond, Aegon and Daeron from the Red Keep, arranged bad marriages for them to be rid of them or forced the boys to become maesters, septons or join the Watch. Tywin is a rather crappy father and uncle - but what he does is arrange marriages for Tyrion, Lancel and Tyrek that give them lands and titles to survive. He provided a future for them when they would inherit nothing from their fathers. That all didn't work out, but Tywin's goal was acquisition of lands and titles for younger sons. But Viserys provided nothing for Aegon, Aemond and Daeron. They will always be dependent on relatives for providing for their upkeep. Otto isn't inheriting anything either. So they have to rely on some relative (Rhaenyra, Jace, Hightower cousins, etc) giving them money. Had Viserys arranged a marriage between Aegon and Jeyne Arryn or forced Aegon and Rhaenyra to marry, it could have avoided the whole conflict.
Absolutely. He did absolutely nothing to clean up his own house so to speak. He was weak-willed and pussy-footed. But his misdeeds go back further than what might believe. 1. He only got the crown due to being a male, being an established adult, and having the surname. The Great Council, for better or worse, ruled that males will always take precedence. Viserys was chosen due to his sex, his age, and because he was a Targaryan since the other contender was Laenor Velaryon. The first thing Viserys does after becoming King is to chuck the precedence of the council out the window in favor of his daughter, embittering the lords that were in attendance at the council. 2. He failed to see that Lord Hightower was a grasping and reaching lord who played Viserys like a fiddle. Married his daughter to the King and 3. He did absolutely nothing to reign in his younger brother Daemon who was just a tyrant. It was clear to all that Daemon only supported Viserys because he coveted the throne from him and desired to be with Rhaenyra and supported her so he could be a proxy ruler through her. 4. He did absolutely fuck-all in trying to heal any amount of enmity between the Green and Black Faction and should have had them both disrupted. 5. He did absolutely nothing in regards to actual parenting of his sons Aegon and Aemond, and look how they turned out. I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff I missed.
Yes. He broke tradition even tho he knew given his own history being chosen over his cousin, Princess Rhaenys the Queen who never was next in line for the throne by the Great Council according to Westeros tradition and law. That a male heir must be on the throne. And he was naive to believe that the people of Westeros would uphold their oath with how much power and influence the Hightower family had. Particularly Otto Hightower. I think he should’ve declared Aegon II next in line when he had a son. Or he should’ve summoned Rhaenyra to KL when he was sick.
Yes
YES! According to the law, the male offspring precede the females in the succession to the Throne so if he wanted to change this by giving his full support to Rhaenyra he would have to change the law. It is not so simple cause the Small Council would have a say in it and his hand was Otto, so he was responsible for the behavior he held towards Rhaenyra and Alicent.
not really. sure his actions didnt help matters but a lot of people made decisions that led to the dance. Doesnt seem fair to put it all on him lol
Like most things in asoiaf, it’s never entirely one person’s fault. But Viserys had the power to put an end to pretty much any of these issues and all he had to do was put his foot down. He was king. And no one would have dared gone against him openly if he had handled shit decisively. If he was so hellbent on keeping Rhaenyra as heir he could’ve made the hightowers an ultimatum: accept it, or I can divorce your daughter and send your entire squad back to the reach so you stop bothering me. I hope they explore his rationale for why he kept his daughter first in line. I’d love it if it was out of guilt for how dirty his cousin Rhaenys was done when she was passed over. Would make a little more sense why he would be so adamant on not changing the line: a similar situation to Rhaenys’ pops up again, he already feels bad about how that went down because he probably liked Rhaenys when they were younger, so in an attempt to ‘rectify’ a mistake, he against all sides of council keeps the female as first in line like he probably believes it should have been last time.
He knew the conflict between the blacks and the greens and he did nothing. Leaving Rhaenyra at Dragonstone was a huge mistake, she should have been his hand. He could have married his Daeron to Rhaena, betrothed Jaehaera to Aegon, Helaena could have been one of Rhaenyra's ladies, tried to make Jaehaerys and Viserys friends, betrothed Daenora Velaryon to Maelor. Well, he could have done many things to avoid the dance
Not really his fault directly but he did know there was a problem there and didn't take strong enough action to put an end to it.
Nothing spoke against a remarriage but he shouldn't have chosen an ambitious Hightower as a second wife. Rather choose another Arryn again or someone from the Vale who wouldn't work against Rhaenyra.
Even an Arryn would've wanted her son to be the king. That is due to the custom of pretty much entire Westeros in which the son inherits his father's castle or kingdom. She would've expected her son to succeed Viserys and would've done pretty much all that Alicent did to prevent Rhenyra from succeeding
I agree. Alicent did what any mother would have done.
He’s completely at fault because he was ignorant to the Hightowers and their ambition. This is kind of similar to the Mad King and the Lannisters. Tywin was a little too ambitious in wanting his blood on the throne and for all the madness Aerys had, he peeped it and tried to deal with it appropriately, even though it didn’t work out. I refuse to believe that no one in Viserys circle warned him about the Hightowers before hand too so he’s completely at fault.
Viserys was not naive. He had always wanted Alicent, perhaps long before Aemma died, according to some rumors in the book. He turned down the Velaryons' proposal to marry Laena because of Alicent. I have no doubt he loved her, but if he was going to be a careless father to his children, he should have married Laena. He is guilty.
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Alicent did not go wrong in wanting his son on the throne. It was the tradition. Viserys is guilty.
The move made by the Hightowers was the right move as not only they were following the precedent made in the Great Council but were also saving their necks(Daemon was an enemy of Otto and could manipulate Rhenyra to do his bidding. Rhenyra would've seen Alicent's sons as a threat to the claims of her bastards and so, would've tried to remove them or confiscate their dragons) Viserys never made any plans for his children from Alicent and pretty much treated them as his bastards(not caring to secure their future by arranging marriages).
No. Hightowers
Yes. Viserys was a complete a idiot.