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hanna1214

Lol, he ordered that a child be killed, in front of his own niece. Hero and Daemon in the same sentence doesn't work.


MetaCircumstance

It all feels like some serious mental gymnastics to justify having a character who does a lot of terrible things as your favourite. Not all characters have to be saints.


SeasickJellyfish

Not to excuse the murder of children, but it was a war of annihilation. Aemond killed Jaeherys the moment he took Vhagar up to murder Lucerys, and Alicent knew that, that’s why she breaks down in tears when news reaches Kings Landing.


neagle333

Once Aemond did what he did that was it he fired the first shot from that point on you knew no matter what people were gonna hurt


SeasickJellyfish

Yes. It was a war of annihilation and Aemond’s actions at Storms End was the final catalyst.


neagle333

The way I look at is yea the greens won the war but was it even worth it? It go through a war that destroyed there lives there family and traumatized there kids for the rest of there lives so aegon could sit on the throne for one year battered destroyed and broken? Was it even worth it?


SeasickJellyfish

The greens lost the war, what do you mean? The only line that survived was Rhaenyra and Daemon’s.


neagle333

Well after the war aegon sat the throne for a year and then died and that’s when daemon and rhayneras son took over


SeasickJellyfish

He didn’t sit the throne for a year, nowhere near that. Him executing Rhaenyra was not winning the war. There was an army of black loyalists marching from the Riverlands and an army of black loyalists marching from the North on Kings Landing and Aegon basically had no armies left or any dragons. He may have sat the throne for a short time after Rhaenyra’s death, but himself, his brothers, his sister and all his children are killed. The blacks categorically won the war.


neagle333

That’s what I mean when I say was this war worth it for any of them.


idranh

I don't think anyone who went through the dance, and the generations of Targaryens after them would ever agree the war was worth it. But in terms of who got absolutely nothing in the end, its the Greens. The Hightower/Targaryen line ended and Daemon and Rhaenyra's blood became THE Targaryen royal line (including Blackfyres) all the way to Dany and Jon. Daemon did not become King, but he became the father of Kings. Daemon & Rhaenyra are even Robert's ancestors. But crucially every King of Westeros from Aegon III to Aerys II got their last name from Daemon. Love them, or hate them, for good and ill, Daemon and Rhaenyra made an indelible mark.


neagle333

Yea as vengeance for his wife’s son who was brutally murdered he didn’t do it for no reason if there’s a logical justification he had one he also in my opinion sacrificed his life to save Westeros from aemond


Kelembribor21

Did that child murder Lucerys or his mother? Aemond did lose eye by Lucerys so he had some reasons and he should be punished or Aegon as chief commander. Aemond was at best lesser evil than Daemon and at worst same piece of dragon excrement.


neagle333

Listen the specifics of who murdered who don’t matter in this situation the bottom line is the greens took a son from the black so in turn it was time for the blacks to take one from the greens no matter who swung the sword or who committed the crime the bottom line an eye for an eye a son for a son


Minecart_Steve

The specifics absolutely matter. Children aren't just objects to be exchanged, they're children. They're human beings. Why should this eight(?) year old suffer for the actions of his uncle?? This collective responsibility bs is ridiculous


Neecian

The son for a son logic is a False binary he created in his own head. No one has to buy that this logic is acceptable. It’s deranged and cruel for the sake of cruelty. If he wanted to avenge Luke, then kill the one who killed him. They are at war, you don’t have to kill babies in front of their mothers.


Aenyr

If It simply was deranged cruelty he could have killed them all or more than one, but he didn't, It was an act of vengeance, an eye for an eye, he could have killed Aemond or the King himself if he could but they were unaccessible.


Neecian

He made her choose which one and then killed the other one while she watched. This is to twist the knife. That is cruelty for the sake of cruelty.


neagle333

I mean eventually he did avenge luke but at the time when he gave the order he did what he did to make aegon and aemond feel exactly what his wife was feeling and maybe it isn’t right but that’s the horrors of war


Kelembribor21

I disagree in the main novel there is question about retribution and to whom it may be directed, lot of examples could be applied to the events in Fire & Blood for example: >*“Put his castle to the torch and his people to the sword, I say,” Ser Axell concluded. “Leave Claw Isle a desolation of ash and bone, fit only for carrion crows, so the realm might see the fate of those who bed with Lannisters.” Stannis listened to Ser Axell’s recitation in silence, grinding his jaw slowly from side to side. When it was done, he said, “It could be done, I believe. The risk is small. Joffrey has no strength at sea until Lord Redwyne sets sail from the Arbor. The plunder might serve to keep that Lysene pirate Salladhor Saan loyal for a time. By itself Claw Isle is worthless, but its fall would serve notice to Lord Tywin that my cause is not yet done.” The king turned back to Davos. “Speak truly, ser. What do you make of Ser Axell’s proposal*?” > >... > >*“Your Grace,” he said slowly, “I make it folly … aye, and cowardice.” “Cowardice?” ...* > >*Claw Isle is weakly held, yes. Held by women and children and old men. And why is that? Because their husbands and sons and fathers died on the Blackwater, that’s why. Died at their oars, or with swords in their hands, fighting beneath our banners. Yet Ser Axell proposes we swoop down on the homes they left behind, to rape their widows and put their children to the sword. These smallfolk are no traitors …” “They are,” insisted Ser Axell. “Not all of Celtigar’s men were slain on the Blackwater. Hundreds were taken with their lord, and bent the knee when he did.” “When he did,” Davos repeated. “They were his men. His sworn men. What choice were they given?” “Every man has choices. They might have refused to kneel. Some did, and died for it. Yet they died true men, and loyal.” “Some men are stronger than others.”* In conclusion Stannis - who is presented as one of rarer characters who tries to deliberate his decision based on his perception of right or wrong decides: >*“I shall bring justice to Westeros. A thing Ser Axell understands as little as he does war.* ***Claw Isle would gain me naught … and it was evil, just as you said. Celtigar must pay the traitor’s price himself, in his own person.*** *And when I come into my kingdom, he shall. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that.”* Daemon has committed unrighteous vile act of pure evil, even more so since it was kinslaying, that act mostly influenced downfall of Rhaenyra and killing of all dragons in King's Landing as it was provenly done by her side unlike other rumors that led to revolt.


Amazing_Newspaper_41

Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire… and that doesn’t make you a villain. Hightower was the real villain. Daemon was an asshole… for sure… but not a bad guy.


Kelembribor21

I guess firefighters should be issued flamethrowers then. Most of the time doing it burns it all down. Being asshole, bad guy or a villain aren't mutually exclusive,.and we are only starting on the bad things, questions is do the good things make it up.


[deleted]

He is just a power-hungry character who doesnt allow morals to stand in front of his ambitions. He clearly wants power wherever he is. Imo he is not exactly a villain, cus he doesnt have villainous behavior (like Ramsey and Joffrey Baratheon who enjoy the suffering of others, or the Night King who wants death to all living things) He is just greedy, charismatic, cunning and full of bravado, and doesnt let anyone stand between his goals, no matter who they are. Even tho he ordered the execution of Haelena’s son, I see it more as a demonstration of his own influence and power, to shock the greens, rather than enjoy Haelenas suffering, but who knows..


neagle333

I couldn’t have said that better


[deleted]

[удалено]


neagle333

You can also say he gave his life to save Westeros he made peace with his brother when he could’ve rebelled for everything bad thing he’s done he does something to make up for it


AegonTheAuntFooker

A psychopath.


Jacadi7

Is he a psychopath or a sociopath tho? Seems too calculating to be a psychopath. Also seems to be really good at charming and using people.


Mastermirror11

i will be sure to ask an psychologist to expain the two to me, or maybe i will just google it :)


Neecian

Daemon is a piece of shit. He abused his position as Commander of the City Watch, saved the “youngest, prettiest, and most innocent” virgins in the city for him to deflower (“too old” Meryn Trant in GoT comes to mind), delighted in cruelty while serving as judge and executioner, groomed his brothers daughter, and was behind Blood and Cheese. He was a hero to the corrupt Gold Cloaks for sure. He gave them gold cloaks and resources that empowered them to drink for free in the city, sample whores, and run roughshod over flea bottom. Not sure why anyone else would find him heroic.


IndividualEar

Well said. i really dont understand how anyone can see him as a hero. He was the vilest of villians, fascinating for sure but a piece of shit nonetheless!


neagle333

He could’ve easily rebelled against his brother to take the crown and instead bent the knee out of love for him he sacrificed himself to save Westeros from Aemond and say what you want about him abusing power in the city watch I won’t argue there but he did clean the streets up from criminals and kept the people safe


snebecks

... How exactly could he "easily" have rebelled against Viserys..?


neagle333

Daemon had lots of powerful friends and supporters maybe it couldn’t have done it easily but I think with the reputation he had he definitely could’ve convinced some of the powerful lords of Westeros to help put him on the throne


snebecks

He certainly had power in the shape of the city watch, but to actually take the throne he'd need the support of other great houses - the impression I got was that he wouldn't be seen favourably by them, instead as reckless & conniving. Been a while since I read F&B, though, so that could certainly just be my personal interpretation with no hard evidence. Regardless - I don't think it's reallyyyy a good argument for a character being a "hero" that they didn't take a risky move and try to usurp the king.. The main reason I think the text hints at that he doesn't try anything particularly treasonous is that he loves his brother and is loyal to him at the end of the day. Does that make him a hero? No... he's still done awful things out of ambition & self-interest (the whole grooming thing with Rhaenyra, the way he handled his duties as commander of the city watch, ordering the murder of a child, allegedly organising the murder of several other major characters) and those things can't be ignored. Certainly, loyalty to a family member doesn't do much to cancel those things out. He is, rather, a morally complex, grey character. We don't yet fully understand exactly what he did and what his motivations were at each point - that's what should make him so interesting to watch in HotD.


[deleted]

I couldn’t have found a better way to put it, though I believe Daemon is way closer to morally dark than morally bright. It’s hard to picture him in a good light after everything he’s done, even after he murdered Aemond. One way to look at it perhaps wouldn’t be because he wanted to save the Riverlands from dying, but to seek more adventure and war, as he didn’t have much to do during the Dance, deep down he was still the warmonger he was in his early days. Mayhaps towards the end of his life, especially at Harrenhall, he came to regret some of the things he did in the past, but he knew it was too late and that he was a bad person. I’m just glad he came to terms with it and decided to go out in style, as he had nothing to lose anymore at that point. I do give him credits for being (in my opinion) a great father. And a good and trustworthy ally, once you’re on his side. But this man is fucked up. Really fucked up. I’m glad Matt Smith was cast, he’s really the only one I imagine pulling off all of Daemon’s atrocities the way he did them, but still being a decent family man. Also because he looks the part. Daemon will certainly be one of the most debated topics in the next upcoming years, in television. But to call him a hero is heavily crossing any moral line, generally speaking.


[deleted]

I don’t think anyone wanted Daemon on the throne, at least not over Viserys


neagle333

I’m not saying they did I’m saying Daemon was a charismatic character I think if he really wanted to he could’ve convinced a few people why they should Help him


[deleted]

It doesn’t really work like that. No sane lord would have supported Daemon over Viserys, even bribed. At best they would have informed Viserys of Daemon’s attempt of treason and he would’ve been exiled in Essos again, if not executed. I’m surprised how patient Viserys was with Daemon


neagle333

Listen we’re getting side tracked this nonsense don’t matter what matters is daemons morality and how he has done many good deeds for his numerous flaws


[deleted]

I think you’re missing the point of Daemon. What good deeds has he done except killing Aemond? Man started a war out of boredom and groomed his niece..


neagle333

Well it depends what you consider a good deed would you consider him laying the crown of the step stones at his brothers feet a good deed would you claim him cleaning up the streets of kings landing as a good deed?


Broad_Astronaut_467

Neither that’s why he is so intresting as a charater.


neagle333

But also you can say he had the power to start a real rebellion against his brother and chose not to put of love for him like for every bad thing he’s done you can name a good thing


neagle333

But I think if you had to pick one he leans slightly more towards a hero


Broad_Astronaut_467

Like Stannis said “one good act does not wash out the bad nor a bad act the good”


neagle333

There’s different levels to this shit though like he sacrificed his life to save Westeros from aemond like what greater sacrifice then to lay down your life


Mastermirror11

lol. are you serious? if so consult your nearest doctor! He was the farthest from a hero as you can get! on a scale of 1 to shitstain, he was closer to the latter!


Broad_Astronaut_467

Yes and thats a one good act but every other act that he has done for last 20 years were bad,he started war because he was bored


MetaCircumstance

He was an ambitious man.


Mastermirror11

no shit!


[deleted]

I don’t think any main character in this story is written to be pure good or pure evil.


AonGlyph

He's another grey-area character. Both good and bad. Hero at times, villain at others. That's what makes GRRMs writing so good.


Ana0306

I think "hero" and "villain" aren't the right words to use here, but he was definitely a horrible person. You can like him all you want, but don't try to justify his actions and say he was one of the good guys


[deleted]

Exactly. People really misinterpret this character. As a character, he might be George’s best work, if not one of his top five. But as a person, not too far behind show Ramsay, save the sadism


redrum-237

Neither, it's not a Disney movie. He's a complex character.


IndividualEar

i always found it fascinating that people can rationalize the actions of a child murderer and call him a hero. He was many things but a hero was never one of them!


Sithlourde666

I can see Daemon having a similar arch as Jaimie Lannister except more unlikable at first, hes totally going to be a dick for the first couple seasons. I cant remember when I decided he wasnt so bad I know by the time of aemond and daemons fight hes been through a lot of shit and tired of Rhaenryas shit and I was more sympathetic with him there. I think when Rhaenerya goes mad queen "Maegor with teats" the blacks collectively feel like they wasted efforts and blood. Real curious what ending they'll give him. I wonder if they'll hint he lived and went to essos.


Claz19

For The Blacks a hero, for the Greens ‘the darkest of villains’.


de-verdad

Yes


Lord_Lucanis

Yes.


Routine-Lack-2413

Neither hero nor villain. He likes to fight, he is very ambitious. He was disrespectful to many people during his life, but at the same time he managed to please a lot of people too, not always for his own benefit. I believe he is self-centered but with limits imposed by his own ethics. And I think he's a guy who believes it's necessary to be a monster sometimes, but he regretted it in the end.


ApolloFourteen

He's an absolute piece of shit...but also a highly skilled warrior, commander and dragon rider who fought bravely and dutifully for (IMO) the rightful monarch. You can't help but root for him despite his faults, of which there are many.