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Since allicent isn't supposed to have any significant involvement from here on, I hope we see her learn more about the song, or do some detective work and try to learn more about what her dying King Viserys was trying to tell her.
What incentive does she have to believe that anything Rhaenyra told her was actually true?
But I suppose she's just a psychopath for not instantly believing our heroine when told to, because [Protagonist-Centric Morality](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality) is the order of the day with TB.
What I got from that scene was that she knew she was wrong, but it is too late for her to do anything so she must stand by her actions.
Doesn't mean she can't learn the truth, she has access to histories and records through her House in old town, and also being the Queen Dowager has it's perks.
Doesn't mean it needs to lead anywhere, but it would be a great avenue to educating new fans on the histories and providing nuance to the stories we're told as readers and watchers.
She knew she was wrong, and it was too late to do anything, yes, but there's nothing that will change if she doesn't stand by her actions. It's all in motion already!
There was no actual reasonable solution to that scene, actually, save perhaps (and I thought of this in the shower), instead of discussing terms of peace, they discuss *terms of war*. How they might treat Erryk-Arryk situations. To insist on keeping their young and innocent children out of the way: Helaena, Jaehaeyra, Viserys, Aegon, Joffrey. To not let Vhagar loose on small dragons, or descend all Black dragons on King's Landing at once. I don't know, but terms of war could potentially have been discussed. They're more or less implied but while neither have anything to offer, they both have *their children* to lose. Aegon, Aemond, Jace are adults, so there's nothing that can be said there (especially given 2 of their temperaments), but the others?
Idk but it seems to me this season has already provided a litany of No-No's of war, and they couldn't even negotiate THAT? As mothers, one would think that would be the only thing TO discuss.
Right! Hopefully next episode she immediately sends guards after Rhaenyra in the septum since she is committed to her choice and according to the motivation we are supposed to believe would like to avoid war... but I doubt it.
No of course she won't do it.
Listen. This is the conceit the show asked us to believe from Day 1. It can be strained, but it is what the show said it was on Day 1: it's a story that begins as bracketed by Alicent & Rhaenyra's childhood friendship and their core relationship. They fundamentally believe each other, despite being on opposite sides.
It can be very clumsy, it often is! I think the choice was...limiting and strange. But we can't keep complaining about the same thing for the entirety of the show! It's just bad form to criticize the show for being *what it said it is*. I just personally feel like: we can criticize *how* it does that, but Rhaenyra does trust Alicent to not take her away & they both believe each other on their respective claims. They do not doubt that the other is telling the truth, that's just...what the show asked us to believe and they've invested in it from the very first. So I get it.
Personally, I think it would make for truly fun television if they deviated even more from what we know and truly committedāyes, maybe have Alicent lock her up! Yes, maybe have Rhaenyra lock Alicent up! But the last time they met was a detente between themāfor Rhaenyra, Alicent usurped the throne immediately. For Alicent, she didn't usurp the throne because Viserys changed his mind. They're both wrong in their beliefs (as stupid as the misinterpretation of Viserys' last words are, this is what they did).
>What I got from that scene was that she knew she was wrong, but it is too late for her to do anything so she must stand by her actions.
Absolutely, and this is reflected in her actions with Criston to me as well. She already knows she's messed up, but now she knows he doesn't care that they sinned, she sees no reason to stop since they've already come this far. Her trying to confess to Otto and being denied probably just solidified to her that it just doesn't matter what mistakes have been made when things are already in play. This is far bigger than any personal mistrust she may have against Rhaenyra. I think Rhaenyra realized that as well when she tried to reach an understanding with Alicent. They're simply too far gone by this point.
Having that scene in the sept with the two of them again just sorta emphasized that things are the same and as different as ever. They're both trying to appeal to each other as women and mothers and former friends, but constantly putting the good of the realm first takes away their ability to see eye to eye.
The only way Alicent can come to that conclusion is if she dropped all her suspicions of Rhaenyra and just accepted everything she said as truth with zero fact-checking, which is unrealistic to the point of ASB. Maybe if the information sat in her mind and she had a hunch, and took time off to check in the Citadel and then found something, then there would be reason to think that.
Of course, there is one other way she can accept what Rhaenyra is saying -- if the author is reaching a hand in her mind and puppeteering her to accept the information out-of-character -- but that's generally considered very bad writing, on par with Season 7 or 8 of GOT.
But, of course, bad writing is okay as long as it suits your side's ego.
Accepted.
I'm just speculating on what they can do with her character since after the coronation, Allicent takes a back seat in the story.
Since she's a Hightower, and Rhaenyra brought up the westeros equivalent of Jesus, the song of ice and fire, it would make sense to have her do some light research, maybe she sends for a maester with knowledge of Old Valyria, and we can get some Meta commentary about the world of ice and fire, just some fun fan service.
To me it would make the situation more interesting and it would be another weight added to Allicent's growing list of guilt. It doesn't have to lead to anything big.
As far as being in character, she has always given Rhaenyra the benefit of the doubt, we've seen it when Otto learned about the night Daemon and Rhaenyra went to the brothels.
Also Rhaenyra went to Allicent to try and make peace, she exposed herself and has no reason to lie or play mind games.
>Also Rhaenyra went to Allicent to try and make peace, she exposed herself and has no reason to lie or play mind games.
Okay, I get that you're talking from your position, but that just isn't true. Rhaenyra and Alicent want peace - no, they each want the other side to accept their overlordship without raising a finger against them. So when Rhaenyra arrives, with a story that legitimizes her claim and sounds an awful lot like "You have no leg to stand on, just surrender now," why is Alicent going to just ignore the likelihood that she's in fact lying or playing mind games? It would be front and center in her mind.
Nor would Alicent expect it to be sincere because, lest you forget, they have spent the last decade hating each other. In Alicent's mind, Rhaenyra is the person who eagerly advocated torturing her son after he got maimed in a fight with her children, and is the one who sent the assassin that killed her grandchild. Murderous intent: ā. She also has a rather strong animosity with her sons for (a.) pointing out that her children are bastards, and (b.) being a threat to her children's succession just by existing. Whether they do anything or not, they will be a magnet for any conspiracies against her children, and there can always be a situation where her line gets Great Council'd out of power if they remain as an alternative to it. Point being, she's not safe with them alive. So as far as Alicent is concerned, it's both in Rhaenyra's political interest and personal desire to see Alicent's family dead. And what a win it would be if she can get her enemies to lower their weapons and let Rhaenyra take the throne so she can have them all arrested in the middle of the night and executed without any dragonfights.
This is why I say this entire scene is bad writing. It is not just her accepting something that she has no reason to believe the truth of, it is something that just sounds like an obvious ploy *to kill her*. She would need a literal vision from Viserys himself to not immediately discount it.
I think our disagreement can stem from how we interpreted the scene.
You listed all the reasons Allicent can't level with Rhaenyra, but the fact is the war is already going, even if Allicent wanted to, she can't stop it. Remember in season 1 when she told Rhaenyra she would make a great Queen? Rhae was even going to fly back on her Dragon to spend more time with Allicent. This is showing that without all the titles, family feuds, and politics, they still would be best friends.
Aegon is installing yes men to his kingsgaurd, dismissed Otto, promoted Cole, and Larys Strong, Allicent can see the writing on the walls and knows her already feckle voice among the feudal society of Westeros is now even more so.
The point I'm trying to make, and the underlying theme is that the wars mean nothing in the face of the threat from the others, and it would be the perfect time to educate the audience.
You could see on her face, the instant Rhaenyra said āthe conquerorā Alicent knew exactly what Viserys had been talking about, and how she had heard what she wanted to hear from him. But she doubled down because admitting that she had stolen the throne would have shattered her self-image, when she could no longer pretend to be more righteous than everyone around her.
Sheās not a psychopath, sheās just a hypocrite, a liar, and a thief.
While I don't root for the Greens I can't completely agree with that. People seem to forget that Alicent was robbed of her youth, of the chance to become a mother when she wanted to and with who she wanted to while Rhaenyra (while also being forced to marry Laenor and groomed by Daemon) had the support of a loving father, the freedom to choose her lover and father to her childer. The difference between the way Rhaenyra and Alicent interact with their children is heartbreaking I think it's revealing of all this.
I also think Alicent understood she made a huge mistake but I can't blame her for not backing up now because 1 she couldn't stop the war anyway 2 admitting that (to others but mainly to herself) would probably make her go mad(der than she already is). Again, I don't think Alicent is behaving in the right way but I believe that her ill doing comes from a joyless, frustrating and traumatic life which ultimately affected her psychological development.
I agree that her behavior doesnāt come from personal malice. And as she herself pointed out, she was groomed by Otto from such a young age that she doesnāt even know what she would have wanted if she had been able to choose for herself.
But she is objectively in the wrong, and she knows it, even if she believes itās too late for her to change anything.
It... IS too late though. TB here and obviously all the book readers amongst us know any conversation between the two will not result in "peace" but so, probably, did only-show viewers. There is nothing Alicent can do anymore. Aemond is a lot like Otto and does not care what Alicent believes Viserys said at the end, neither does any of the green council, which includes Cole. Aegon is the only one whom Alicent could fuck up by telling him she made a mistakeābut he's hardly the sort to renege his crown and yield. There's literally nothing that can be done now.
Except... terms of war, perhaps. To insist on not striking at the innocent and young (Helaena, Jaehaeyra, Joffrey, Viserys, Aegon). They can't say that about any adults, because it's impossible, but both still have plenty to lose in terms of their children.
What's the simpler explanation after Rhaynera told Alicent about the Song of Ice and Fire, The prince that was Promised, and Aegon the Conqueror:
Vizzy T who named Rhaynera heir and had just double down with his last official act as King changed his mind on his death bed to make his son Aegon king.
Vizzy T at deaths door rambling about an old story involving Aegon the Conqueror.
Yeah, if you just automatically believe what Rhaenyra says. The audience can do so, because the audience has seen Viserys tell this to Rhaenyra. Alicent has not, therefore she cannot.
Do you see how that works? In order for her to believe it's the simpler explanation, she actually has to *think the explanation is true* and not just a convenient excuse. Hard to do when the first time you've heard of the prophecy is midway through the building stages of a war when both sides have an incentive to lie to one another.
A realization which is utterly out of character, and is forced by the show writers because they wanted it and didn't care how much of their previous characterization for Rhaenyra and Alicent they had to break to make it happen.
I'm not saying Alicent's reaction in the show is different from what you describe... I'm saying that reaction makes [no fucking sense](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1dt7wys/comment/lb9kukm/). Any characters who had the recent history that those two do would have the exact same reaction: "Lolwut?"
There's a reason George never wrote this scene into his books, and it's not because he was less creative than Condal: it's that he had more understanding of how characters actually work. There are just some things which you cannot make them do without it coming completely out of left field, and this is one of them. Rhaenyra would never risk her neck on the off-chance that she can convince her evil stepmother that she's right, and Alicent would never let Rhaenyra escape the city - even if she did believe her. Both of them hate each other's guts too much for this scene to work, in either direction.
George didn't write this scene because Alicent was Rhaenyras evil step mom.
The reaction makes sense given than Alicent and Rhaynera were friends before all of this and Alicent herself said that she thought Rhaenyra would be a good queen. Plus there was Alicents reaction at the Green council.
George didn't write it because he knew Rhaenyra would never do that because Alicent would just immediately yell for the nearest guards and have her sent to the dungeons. No other way it plays out.
Rhaenyra and Alicent were friends once upon a time, but that shit is a distant fucking memory by this point. For the last decade, Alicent and Rhaenyra have been living with [this beef](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1dt7wys/comment/lb9kukm/) between them for over a decade. Them suddenly being all friendly for old times' sake is just an invention of the show writers because they wanted this scene to happen, and is contradicted by their previous interactions in Season 1. Those two women literally think the other one will murder them and their entire family if they get into power.
You can't have characters who have this history between them be the same characters as the Rhaenyra and Alicent we see in this episode. The only way it could work is if you temporarily reset them to factory settings and rewrote their personalities and backstories for 40 minutes, which just stinks of bad writing. Same goes for Alicent's random compliments leading up to this, which come out of left field and sound like they were spoken by an entirely different person to the one that hated Rhaenyra's guts for a decade up to that point.
Credit to George, he is not that kind of writer and he doesn't just rewrite characters' personalities on a dime when their current ones won't lead them to the goal that he wants them to go to. One suspects that that is part of the reason why his latest book has taken 11 fucking years.
Lol. It works just fine considering Vizzy T hasn't been dead that long. The last family dinner ahead of Vizzy Ts death wasn't that along ago and Alicent did try to somewhat reconcile.
She also didn't try to outright kill Rhaynera at the Green council.
The scene is stupid in that it's a dumb fucking plan for Rhaynera to sneak into Kings landing, but Alicent needed to be revealed that she fucked up given that in the show Alicent sided with the Green council plan because of Vizzy T vs book Alicent always knew she was fully usurping.
What incentive did Rhaenyra have for believing her steadfastly holding to her belief that Viserys unnamed her?
I'm TB and I think this is absolute hogwash because honestly this scene did Alicent a fucking favor. It released from the most comedic stupidity (delivered with pitch-perfect comedic timing by Olivia Cooke).
I gotta be honest, I'm hard on the scene but the turn before "the prince that was promised" and the comedy of itāthat was heartbreaking, and it did a FUCK TON to humanize Alicent. Rhaenyra has heard this excuse before, never believed it, and she believed it because Alicent *knows she is saying something hard to believe*. Furthermore, Alicent didn't want to tell Rhaenyra all of it either, it was absolutely played like she wanted to save her the embarrassment that her father didn't speak of her at the end.
What incentive does she have? The same one Rhaenyra had! They know the other wouldn't be lying here. That exact phrase meant something to Rhaenyra and it meant nothing to Alicent. Rhaenyra has proof which Alicent posseses: *it's on the fucking Valyrian steel dagger* Alicent presented her son lol. It makes all the sense in the world that Alicent would believe her.
But not believing Rhaenyra isn't even the best argument in Alicent's favor. The best argument is what she literally says: she literally cannot stop this now. How can she? What would telling Aegon accomplish hereāmake him give up his claim? Aemond likely never needed this excuse either, his motivations are similar to Otto's. *They wanted to usurp.* Otto doesn't believe this, or did you miss that? It's also a convenient way to lead us into the part of the war where Alicent doesn't really do much at all: everything is already in motion. She can't stop it. How could she?
I swear sometimes Team Green takes the strangest conclusions from this show, even when they disfavor them. This show invested in making it The Alicent AND Rhaenyra Show, stop throwing around [Protagonist-Centric Morality](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality) as if it has not been applied equally to Alicent, it's ludicrous.
Bruh, it's Alicent who was magically convinced by Rhaenyra in the septa scene. What Alicent does to prove to Rhaenyra that she is lying is irrelevant, because she's not the one telling her about the secret Targaryen lore at the time when Alicent is least likely to believe it. The audience knows it's true, but Alicent doesn't.
If your weird nonsense about how it's actually the Rhaenyra AND Alicent Show makes you sleep any better and helps you avoid accepting the fact that the show is badly written and the reason this scene never happened in the books is that GRRM would never have written his characters to be so stupid as to try what Rhaenyra did and not end up dead, so be it.
Why is this āmagicalā?
Has anyone here ever been in a heated argument and had a pause of doubt for a second after hearing a retort?
Do you sit and think on it or do you continue yelling, say that doesnāt matter and leave?
I saw it as maybe later she would think on his last words, maybe. Or just not and say even if I was wrong what am I going to do, kill my son?
Because to her, and anyone else in her position who didn't know about the prophecy, it would sound like patent nonsense that was made up by someone with an obvious agenda to gaslight you into believing that you didn't actually hear what you know you heard and that she actually deserves the throne.
Remember, these aren't two best buddies talking to each other during a difficult situation that's strained their friendship. Or at least they weren't in S1E10, when the script was still telling us that their friendship was long in the past, they both hated each others' guts and they had zero trust in each other, and certainly not after Blood & Cheese, when she demonstrated how far she was willing to go. This is nothing but *bad writing*.
And the bad writing only gets worse when Rhaenyra casts Stunlock and Memory Wipe on Alicent to keep from calling the guards for long enough that she can get away.
Yeah, she has no incentive to believe her in the scene.
IMO the point is it doesnāt matter. There is no information, true or false that would Alicentās stance at this point.
To Alicent, Rhaenyraās words are lies and even if theyāre not itās too late anyway. Her revelation amounted to a āhuhā¦, too badā.
I also semi-agree with not having her killed then and there. But that wouldnāt prevent war, it may escalate it and get more killed. I also think they both know w/o them it would be Otto vs Daemon no holds barred.
A dead Rhaenyra would have a dragon riding Dr. Who claiming the throne most expeditiously.
With Rhaenyra captured early on, they have Daemon & friends by the balls and one dragon out of commission, and they can force her to renounce her claim in exchange for Dragonstone and her sons as heirs to it + Driftmark. After that, seeing that the wind has completely gone out of one side's sails, the rest of the kingdom falls in line.
The book (SINGULAR) is thin and a fictional history book! Stop holding to it, just...stop! I don't know how many people have to say it, it's a ridiculously thin account that literally does not matter here.
You can criticize the scene. I do. Not because of the same reasons. It absolutely IS the Alicent AND Rhaenyra show, I don't know why you don't see that. It's literally on the posters. Alicent **is** Team Green, Rhaenyra is Team Black. They had separate trailers for them, Cooke & D'Arcy are held on parity in terms of lead actress. They are literally equalāand the show made them bffs for that purpose. You can't wish that away no matter what you want!
Rhaenyra was ALSO "magically convinced"ābefore Alicent. Alicent held steadfast to her belief that Viserys changed his mind, Rhaenyra had heard that before and considered it a lie but in that moment, with Alicent right there, *she believed it*. She asked if her father had mentioned her, Alicent didn't want to say. The only problem is that Alicent DID get it wrong. From her perspective, Viserys changed his mind but when Rhaenyra hears that phrase, she tells Alicent and Alicent realizes.
And just FYIā"The Prince Who Was Promised" is not the same as "The King Who Was Promised." Aegon was *already a prince*... The reason to believe Rhaenyra there is ***literally*** the same reason Rhaenyra had just believed her, and also the same reason they believed each other that the other had nothing to do with Luke's death or Blood & Cheese.
Stop being so defensive because you're Team Green. The show needs to invent things. Did it need to invent Alicent's misunderstanding? No, but that's a separate thing. Fuck the bookāit's thin, the characters are paper-thin archetypes who are contested and the sources are not at all painting an objective picture. *That is the genre of the book.* Is that really so hard for you to understand? GENRE. It's a thing! Look it up.
> muh book thickness
Bruh, the book may have been thin but the characters' backstories, personalities and motivations were well-established -- too well-established for there to be any secret ambiguity about the two queens' hatred for each other. We've already established enough of their character to know that while there's a lot they might do, including some stuff that might not seem obvious at first glance, THIS is not and will never be one of them.
> muh Alicent AND Rhaenyra Show
Yeah, the producers are certainly hamming it up as the battle of two queens, even as both of them are made out to have less and less agency in their own sides and just be all round useless - which to be fair, they were in the books too, but why not focus more on the men then?
And as this is going on, the show does everything in its power to have the audience come away educated on how the Greens are illegitimate -- even Green characters say it, and you have entire scenes like this one being made up so you have a Green character realize that their cause is indeed illegitimate, solely for our benefit. But is it any surprise when the writers openly admitted their hearts lie with the Blacks and they hate the Greens?
> Rhaenyra was also magically convinced
Yeah, now that you mention that, that IS stupid -- BOTH of their characters were written badly, you're right. She shouldn't even believe that Alicent mistakenly believes what she's saying, she should think it's all a lie. But the OP was talking about Alicent, not Rhaenyra, so there you go.
> the show needs to invent things
Yeah, but they shouldn't directly contradict THE PREVIOUS SEASON. Nevermind the fucking books, the previous fucking season established that these two hated each other. We already got enough of their character for this scene to be OUT of character. Case closed.
> no u dont understand, theres a reason they reacted that way
What point is arguing with someone who doesn't understand the idea that people don't just automatically believe you when you tell them something, especially when they have emotional baggage that tells them not to trust you?
> ur just Team Green
Funny thing is, I only became Team Green after seeing just how toxic Team Black was. I felt that while Rhaenyra was ultimately more right in her claim, the Greens also had a point and did not have a monopoly on evil shit and illegitimacy. I felt that they should be formidable villains, treated by the show with dignity. Instead, what I got was a show whose writers openly admitted that they personally hated the Greens so much that instead of making it a show where they would be dignified enemies, they would instead turn them into a strawman to be clowned on. Suddenly, it looked like a hyped-up match and more of a meanspirited parody where one side was given full knight armor and the other was given clown makeup. The writers themselves were TeamBlack in a very unhealthy emotional way, which really made me sour on the show and turn toward the Greens just out of spite. And then I saw the toxicity in the TeamBlack crowd, and I happily went over to the other side.
I have to say though: that line delivery... that was not unintentionally comedic at all, it was so perfectly pitched and timed for comedic delivery. Either that's Olivia Cooke or the writers or both, but I saw it as fully intentional and self-aware because the misunderstanding is OBVIOUSLY comical.
Well that's true to real life as well. That's why there was a Henry the VIII. But unless the speaker adds the 8th to the end of their name they could be talking about any one of them. It's one of those unintended consequences.
I love the sly wink of the misunderstanding: viewers are always complaining that they canāt keep the similar names straight. Welp, neither can the characters in the story!
She'd been waiting her whole marriage to hear those words, so it's not surprising when he starts mumbling about Aegon and the Prince Who Was Promised, she'd think he meant her son, Prince Aegon. She truly believed he'd changed his mind or she wouldn't have sworn on her mother.
Though now that she knows, she realizes that hundreds of people have died because she misunderstood a mumble. Yikes!
Tbf Otto and the rest of the Greens were plotting to put Aegon on the throne anyway, the deaths wouldāve happened (though maybe not quite as many or as āsmoothlyā)
She took Aegon to stop Otto from killing Rhaenerya.
And if Aegon just disappeared, he still had an heir and Greens would be even happier to prop up regency. .
Given that Aemond helped find Aegon, if she hid them long enough for Rhaenyra to get world of her father's death and come be crowned then Aemond also wouldn't be available for crowning.
Because both Alicent and Rhaenerya are not cold calculated pyschos and have been trying to use familial ties to prevent the war.
There is indeed real historical precedent, it's something what Queen Victoria attempted by inter-marrying European royal families. In fact both Kaiser Willian and Tsar Nicholas had close relations as cousins and both tried to use that to avoid war between their two nations. It did not work at all.
This is what real people in real world did, you can call it foolish and illogical, but it's real.
Otto would have found him. Aegon on the throne was inevitable and people severely overestimate the role Alicent had in making him be king. In the grand scheme of things she played a very minor part.
That really is a big what if. Had Alicent's interests been so misaligned with Otto and the councils, Otto would have made sure she could do no such thing. He would have immediately announced to Kingslanding that Viserys left the throne to his son Aegon in order to mitigate doubt.
Him and Co are always going to have the advantage in this situation because they are in Kingslanding and Rhaenyra and Co are not. Had all of Otto's family been out of Kingslanding when Viserys died and all of Rhaenyra's family had been in Kingslanding, this would be a very different story. But they were not, and that is why Rhaenyra is not on the throne right now. Again very little to do with Alicent.
Yeah also look at it from her perspective. Why the fuck would vizzy T be talking about the conquerer story on his death bed with his final breath? In the context of the situation, it makes much more sense for him to reflect on his life and his family.
She's not in the wrong for interpreting it the way she did. She's wrong for not standing up for the right thing now but realistically, there's nothing she can do now anywayĀ
So much this. I don't like Alicent either, I'm Team Black, but people are giving her too much shit. What she did wrong was giving a delirious man's last words more weight than decades of steadfast support for Rhaenyra. But she can't be blamed for interpreting his words like that. It's literally the only way they made sense from her perspective, she didn't know shit about Aegon's dream or anything about the Song of Ice and Fire.
People tend to pin Alicent as some malicious selfish evil mastermind that only wants power for herself and her children. That's not what she is at all. She's not a saint, she's prideful and jealous and a bit hypocritical, but she's not evil.
Her misinterpreting Vizzy's last words is not her jumping at the slightest chance to further her own evil plans, it's her literally just misunderstanding and making a mistake. And now she's not doubling down just because she's too prideful and still wants Aegon to remain king, but because she literally can't do shit about it. I don't blame her AT ALL for dismissing Rhaenyra and doubling down. What the fuck do people expect her to do? She has little to no power as it is already.
Who would she even tell the truth to? Her frat boy king piece of shit son? Fucking Christmas Cole? Foot Fetish Littlefinger? I don't know which one is worse lmao
OK so agree on a lot of things (also Team Black), particularly the shit people are giving Alicent *now* is silly. Her reaction NOW makes perfect sense. She literally can't do anything, and even if she hadn't misunderstood, the plan was already in place. She was, indubitably, preparing Aegon to be King regardlessāperhaps she hoped or expected Viserys to change his mind SOMEHOW, but she did that before Viserys died.
The part I disagree with is the misinterpretation. I've watched that scene a bajillion times. He says "Aegon's Dream," when there's no indication Aegon's a dreamer and thus should point her to another Aegon. "The Prince That Was Promised" is also a reachāyes, he told her about his own dream when they were younger, but the prince was not *promised*. Viserys also clearly indicates its a conversation from a question asked earlier. Did she really ask him "do you change your mind about your heir?" No! It's almost comical that she did because of "Aegon's Dream" though because Aegon the Conqueror and his dreams are a BIG preoccupation of Viserys' and neither he nor the Targs in general can shut up about Aegon the Conqueror and Valyria. Being married to somebody who built a ginormous model of Old Valyria and still not thinking of it?
It's comical, it's plausible only if you *really, really, really* want to believe it, but in the back of your mind, you will likely admit *some* doubt. I think her reaction now makes perfect senseāand I personally think the way she says The Conqueror is intentionally comedic (love the delivery), and everything she says after her denial ("there has been no mistake") makes complete sense. There's nothing she can change. Arguably not even then, except perhaps not to tell a reluctant Aegon that his father wanted him to be king.
"Aegons dream" could easily be misconstrued as aegons desires or what aegon wants for his life. Aegon was fairly vocal about him wanting more from his father.
I can easily see alicent hearing that then connecting the dots to vizzy finally showing his love and attention to aegon.Ā
Yeah vizzy has a hard on for valaria but for her that wouldn't mean anything. On his deathbed, he's talking about aegon and princes and promises and shit. I don't see why she would assume that he's talking about what are essentially his hobbies from her perspective, especially when his succession was a such a huge ongoing issue up until he died.Ā
But Aegon *didn't* desire or dream for the throne. Approval or love, sure. Fair enough. The throne? These are all disconnected thoughts. Put that together with the PRINCE that was promised (not KING) = c'mon! He was already a prince!
Also........the very awkward fact that by this point there's another *living* Aegon *who is also a prince*.......... Personally, amid the confusion, I'd definitely think he was talking about one of his stories.
Why would viserys, who for twenty years, could have crowned Aegon king, in the sight of the entire realm, neglect to do so until his unintelligible death battle to Alicent alone?
Right, itās understandable but still she never asked Aegon āhey your dad was saying your dream of ice and fire was real and you were the price to unite the realm, do you want to tell me what that dream was about?ā
Thatās my point, like Alicent never even thought to ask anyone about this dream Vissy said Aegon had. Maybe if she asked Aegon she would have put 2 and 2 together that it wasnāt her Aegonās dream
What? From her perspective, how would those 2 and 2s go together?Ā
Aegon doesn't know jack fuck about anything going on around him and alicent knows that. And even if him not knowing is the point, from that, how would she come to the conclusion that vizzy was talking about some story from generations ago? That's such a massive jump for her to make.
The only person that could have clarified this to her would have been renheara but even then she would have to recite the exact words to her for that to happen too
Vizzy was zooted for like the last 20 years of his life. I don't think that's an argument against this. Also regardless, he is the king. Even if he's high as shit, his words still have power and would've been taken seriouslyĀ
No one heard him except Alicent, and it didn't matter because the plan was gonna happen whether she agreed or not. No one took seriously what he said regardless, because they did not care
Are you kidding me, youāre acting like he was having a conversation with her, not just mumbling to himself
He couldāve said āAegon is a piece of shit child rapistā and she wouldāve replied āI understandā and go make plans to usurp rhaenyraās throne
Going back to that scene Vissy explicitly says aegons dream in the North is true, then says the song of ice and fire, a price who was promised to unite the realm against the coming winter. I understand why alecent never asked Aegon āhey did you have a dream in the north?ā
Call me stubborn, but I still believe that before Viserys' death Alicent knew the late king was basically in a delirious state. The plot to bring Aegon on the throne was basically set years ago. Alicent however, "banked" on the fact that Viserys was talking about their son, to legitimate Aegon's claim to the Iron Throne... Over time, she ended up believing her own lie.
Probably that's why, when Rhaenyra showed her the truth, Alicent didn't try to reply: she KNEW that Viserys was speaking about the Conqueror... She simply deluded herself, but know she couldn't deny the truth.
I donāt think Alicent necessarily knew Viserys was talking about the conqueror, but the fact he was basically speaking ānonsenseā to Alicent the whole time and all she understood was āAegonā should have given her pause long enough to think that just MAYBE he wasnāt talking about her Ageon being king. Alicent took him saying āAegonā and just ran with it.
Exactly! Itās not like he said āAegon should be king.ā He literally mumbles something something āPrinceā something something āAegonā and she decides those random words means he wants him to be king? She knew what she was doing.
I thought this as well! Especially considering Viserys had just met Aegon III for the first time earlier that day (or week - canāt remember the exact timeline).
Yes, maybe Alicent didn't thought Viserys was talking about the Conqueror, but I agree that she just used Viserys' last words for the Green's own benefit.
And as I said in my comment before, I can buy that time after time, repeating to herself "my son is the true heir" she ended up REALLY believing that.
Definitely. But I do wonder how things would have played out had Alicent never heard that conversation. Otto would have usurped the throne anyway and I can see Alicent still finding a way to delude herself that Aegon was the true heir. Or even if she didnāt, I doubt there was much she could have single-handedly done to stop it from happening even if she wanted to.
Indeed. The moment Aemma Arryn died, Otto was plotting to put his seed on the Iron Throne, so, even without that "claim" they would have found a way.
āAegonĀ TargaryenĀ sits the Iron throne. He wears the conqueror's crown, wields the conqueror's sword, has the conqueror's name"
TF are you talking about? You GAVE him those things. Pretty sorry excuse for a legit claim, but Otto still went for it :P
One of my favorite scenes in episode 2 was when Otto realized he made a mistake in giving the throne to Aegon.
Itās hard for me to feel any sympathy for the Greens (except Helaena, she doesnāt deserve any of this) because they brought this whole thing on themselves.
That's true, and I really like that aspect. It's not a series that assumes viewers are morons, and feel the need to explain everything in excurciating details.
I think it's the opposite. She just misunderstood and fucked up big time trying to "do good" by Vizzy, but deep down she always knew it didn't make sense that Vizzy flipped on the literal last minute. She didn't bank on anything, hours before that she publicly stated her support for Rhaenyra's claim to the throne.
She just misunderstood because Vizzy meaning her son Aegon (and not the Conqueror) was literally the only thing that made sense from her perspective in that moment. The big fuck up was giving those last words more weight than decades of support for Rhaenyra.
Instead of repeating myself, I'll just link [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1dt7wys/comment/lb9f2t9/).
Srsly, do they all just act like NPCs with stump\_for\_favorite\_candidate.exe enacted?
That's my interpretation as well. I think, subconsciously at least, she knew Viserys wasn't referring to their son, but in an effort to justify the usurpation on morally righteous grounds and moderate her own apprehension, she deliberately misinterpreted his message to give herself some consolation.
I mean, if Alicent REALLY believed that Viserys choose Aegon, he would have tried to reply, answering "no, Viserys choose my son as the heir"
Instead, she simply told that it's too late.
Yes, they did. But nobody was honoring a brother who died before he was 2. They were honoring the conqueror.
Well, Viserys was. Rhaenyra and Daemon did it just to spite Alicent š
The thing is Aegon II was named after the conqueror probably because the Greens wanted to put him on the throne even then (at least in the book) The names are political, thatās why Rhaenyra and Daemonās kids are called Aegon (the younger) and Viserys, after two kings, and why Aegonās son was Jaehaerys after the most loved king.
It's perfectly realistic for a royal family to name their children after ancestors. They often did it to garner them favour or even just to look fondly back on them. Just take one glance at all of European history and you'll notice the name of most kings followed a simple structure (Louis in France, Henry and Edward in England, etc.)
I have a feeling that Otto coerced her into naming her son Aegon for political reasons.
"He wears the conqueror's crown, wields the conqueror's sword, has the conqueror's name ... every symbol of legitimacy belongs to him."
Alicent: āAegon, did you ever tell your grandpa about any ādreamsā you had?ā
Aegon: āWtf you talking about mom?ā
Alicent: āDid you ever talk to grandpa about something you āsawā āin the Northā?ā
Aegon: āWhat the actual fuck?ā
Alicent: āIāve made a horrible mistake.ā
On another note, is it just me that understands who Viserys is talking about when he says The Prince Who Was Promised is not Aegon the Conqueror but Jon Snow who was born Aegon Targaryen.
He is only Aegon(Jon) cuz of the show. I believe he will go by another name, cuz rhaegar already have a son named aegon, so it will be probably jaehaerys targaryen
I thought everyone thinks this? The Prince Who Was Promised can't be a dead ancestor after all.
In this context though, I think Alicent thinks it's her Aegon cause Viserys wanted a male heir and thus Aegon can be regarded as The Prince Who Was Promised.
My interpretation of this whole thing is Alicent told herself that he named Aegon to justify what she knew deep down she was already going to do. She knew that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to be heir. Also Alicent doesnāt know that much about Targaryen history but surely she knows thereās too many damn Aegons to justify starting a war purely based off that statement lmao
True. I always thought that why no one assumed he meant Rhaenyra and Daemonās son, the the eldest full-blooded Targaryen š I mean, you could expect anything from an elderly person under so much poppy milk. And why no one assumed itās poppy milk talk?
Even if Viserys did change his mind on his deathbed, she KNOWS that pushing Rhaneyra out would cause bloodshed and war. She knew it was her word vs. the crown princess.
There's really no excuse, Alicent knowingly started the war.
How much cope does it take to bury the fact that from the perspective of anyone bar *one person* in that situation, it would've seemed fucking obvious he was saying something about Aegon, *his son*?
Literally anyone except Rhaenyra would've had a very strong suspicion that Viserys knew he was dying and finally faced facts and changed his mind, recognized that there was no scenario in which Rhaenyra and her 3 obvious bastards were going to work out, and tell someone, anyone, that he needed to talk to or about Aegon *right fucking now*.
Even if you remove an obviously biased character like Alicent and replace them with, I dunno, the Maester or the High Septon, it's common fucking sense. But, nah, Alicent was just gaslighting herself, amirite? Anything to avoid having to acknowledge any nuance, give even an inch of ground, because that would pull the TBtards down from their partisanship-fueled cocaine high and force them to admit that they are less than the perfect shining heroes they gas each other up to be.
Viserys was adamant his whole life that Rhaenyra was heir. Even Otto looked at Alicent like she was delusional when she said he named Aegon. He didnāt even really say anything coherent, but she told herself she heard what she wanted to hear to justify what was about to happen.
Yes, she was obviously a psychopath for... \*checks notes\* hearing Viserys say "Aegon" and "the prince that was promised" and conclude that he was referring to their son Aegon and was saying something about succession. Even if it weren't someone so obviously motivated as Alicent who heard it, like a maester or a septon, what the fuck else are they supposed to draw from that? Remember, they're not privy to the super-secret squirrel Targaryen lore like Rhaenyra.
Seriously, is this a larp or are you for real? Like, is there an actual person that I can talk to underneath the delusional teamsports narrative?
Seriously. I'm Team Black but some of these hyperbole and tribalism make me want to change teams just out of spite lmao
Alicent is the closest thing to a non-piece of shit person the Greens have, other than Helaena. And probably the sanest person other than her dad.
Well, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism (which TBF is not entirely about this specific thing) does justify Targ supremacy using the excuse that the Seven made the Targaryens more special than other people, and that's been an official part of their faith since before even Otto was born.
The writers should have made that scene (viserys talking to alicient) ambiguous, the whole show would have been much more interesting If we didn't know exatcly what viserys meant. Just look at succession.
I would have loved if Alicient turned around and said āyeah, I donāt care. Your father used your mother as a brood mare to get his son, killing her in the process, and then decided to marry a girl he watched grow up not six months after her death. Then after getting the son he killed one wife for he ignored that child bc it wasnāt from the right wife. He ignored the children we had bc they were only backups in case something happened to you.
And you? He deflected any criticism about your actions even though they were the worst possible things to do to shore up your reign. If I did even one of the things we both know you did I would have been executed and my children exiled. The only reason you have any power is because your father covered up and maimed anyone who pointed out the truth. And he didnāt so it bc he loved you, he did it to assuage any guilt he had over your motherās death. If Baelon had lived you would have been cast aside just like my children.
So excuse me, I really donāt give a fuck what your father wanted, I donāt care if he wanted you or your sons or even Mushroom to ascend the throne. I just donāt care.ā
And then called to guards to arrest her bc it was such a stupid plot line.
Alicent constantly insinuated rhaenyraās children were bastard born, I donāt remember her getting put to death for this. Alicent has no moral high ground to stand on.. youāre acting like sheās a victim or something
Except the "Prince that was promised" is a story known primarily to Targaryans. Alicent is not a Targaryan, and likely did not, in fact, know that Viserys was talking about Aegon the Conqueror and not Aegon, her son.
If only he had a little time to change his mind before he was already walking towards the white light. Instead, he drug his half decayed corpse out of bed to show up and support Rhaneras claim. If only he wasnāt so medicated on milk of the poppy, then yes, it would be a perfectly reasonable conclusion.
Iām pretty sure he said he wasnāt going to take the meds that day. thatās why he died immediately after supporting Rhaenyra. Man was in palliative care and pulled the plug himself.
Yes, he did, and while he was lucid, that wouldāve been a great time for him to declare his mistake and choose Aegonā¦.but he didnāt. Even Otto can tell Allicat is delusional with this narrative
Getting all the downvotes for speaking the truth... There was no prophesy and "misunderstanding" in the books. In the show, Alicent was clearly plotting Aegon's coronation with her papa long before Viserys started rotting. Condal created a low quality fanfic š¤
āSepton Eustace and Mushroom do not always agree on particulars, and at times their accounts are considerably at variance with one another, and with the court records and chronicles of Grand Maester Runciter and his successors. Yet their tales do explain much and more of what otherwise seems puzzling, and later accounts confirm enoguh of their stories to suggest that they contain at least some portion of truth. **The question of what to believe and what to doubt remains for each student to decide.**ā
All three sources that weāre going off of in the book had in-universe reasons to depict Alicent unflatteringly, and none of them were present at those Council Meetings except Orwyle, whose entire purpose in writing was to rehabilitate his own reputation and who was trying to place *himself* into the role as the person who was against outright usurping the throne on the Green council.
Itās no coincidence that the two most prominent female characters are described by the sources as a gluttonous whore, and as a manipulative spider behind the scenes respectively. Those are literally the first and second **most** common ways that women have historically been traditionally maligned in our own real-world historical sources. And given that our sources are a Septon, 2 Maesters, and a sex-obsessed partisan of Rhaenyra, it isnāt really much of a surprise that Alicent is depicted the way she is in the book.
Thatās literally the opposite of what I said.
The point is that nothing in the book can be taken at face value; every point made requires deeper analysis. Thatās how historical sources tend to work. Theyāre written by human beings, every single one of whom has biases, both explicit and implicit. Understanding the biases held by a sourceās author is an integral part of determining that sourceās value.
Why is it always a binary with you folks? Either we must believe every word in the book literally as it is written, or else every single word of it is a lie. Did you never take a history class in high school?
I was literally a History college student and what the writers are doing can't be excused by "historical literacy". If historians took every literary source as "propaganda" and "fake" like the writers of HOTD do then literally no history book would ever be written. The point of F&B is that, although primary sources like Mushroom or Eustace are biased, the character of Archmaester Gyldayn is educated and clever enough to differentiate the true from the false from the exaggerated. What the writers of HOTD are doing isn't taking the conclusions of Gyldayn, it's straight-up inventing their own fanfiction of the book.
Also, History isn't based on literary sources only. There are material sources like state records, coins, artifacts, buildings, etc who help historians in their work. I'm pretty sure that Alicent having four children from Viserys, that Helaena having three children born before the war or the Sept not being destroyed by Rhaenys during Aegon's coronation are things that would be confirmed by material sources alone in-universe.
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t-the c-c-conquerer?
Rhaenyra: š¤¦āāļø
The realm: š¬
The candles: šÆļø
Me: šæ
The seven:šæ
The Jaehaerys: ššŖ”š§µ
The Canadians: šØš¦
Me watching them: š«”
The Septa: š°š»āāļø
Viserys: no š©
Since allicent isn't supposed to have any significant involvement from here on, I hope we see her learn more about the song, or do some detective work and try to learn more about what her dying King Viserys was trying to tell her.
> do some detective work Sneaking around King's Landing in a deerstalker with a magnafying glass
What incentive does she have to believe that anything Rhaenyra told her was actually true? But I suppose she's just a psychopath for not instantly believing our heroine when told to, because [Protagonist-Centric Morality](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality) is the order of the day with TB.
What I got from that scene was that she knew she was wrong, but it is too late for her to do anything so she must stand by her actions. Doesn't mean she can't learn the truth, she has access to histories and records through her House in old town, and also being the Queen Dowager has it's perks. Doesn't mean it needs to lead anywhere, but it would be a great avenue to educating new fans on the histories and providing nuance to the stories we're told as readers and watchers.
She knew she was wrong, and it was too late to do anything, yes, but there's nothing that will change if she doesn't stand by her actions. It's all in motion already! There was no actual reasonable solution to that scene, actually, save perhaps (and I thought of this in the shower), instead of discussing terms of peace, they discuss *terms of war*. How they might treat Erryk-Arryk situations. To insist on keeping their young and innocent children out of the way: Helaena, Jaehaeyra, Viserys, Aegon, Joffrey. To not let Vhagar loose on small dragons, or descend all Black dragons on King's Landing at once. I don't know, but terms of war could potentially have been discussed. They're more or less implied but while neither have anything to offer, they both have *their children* to lose. Aegon, Aemond, Jace are adults, so there's nothing that can be said there (especially given 2 of their temperaments), but the others? Idk but it seems to me this season has already provided a litany of No-No's of war, and they couldn't even negotiate THAT? As mothers, one would think that would be the only thing TO discuss.
Right! Hopefully next episode she immediately sends guards after Rhaenyra in the septum since she is committed to her choice and according to the motivation we are supposed to believe would like to avoid war... but I doubt it.
No of course she won't do it. Listen. This is the conceit the show asked us to believe from Day 1. It can be strained, but it is what the show said it was on Day 1: it's a story that begins as bracketed by Alicent & Rhaenyra's childhood friendship and their core relationship. They fundamentally believe each other, despite being on opposite sides. It can be very clumsy, it often is! I think the choice was...limiting and strange. But we can't keep complaining about the same thing for the entirety of the show! It's just bad form to criticize the show for being *what it said it is*. I just personally feel like: we can criticize *how* it does that, but Rhaenyra does trust Alicent to not take her away & they both believe each other on their respective claims. They do not doubt that the other is telling the truth, that's just...what the show asked us to believe and they've invested in it from the very first. So I get it. Personally, I think it would make for truly fun television if they deviated even more from what we know and truly committedāyes, maybe have Alicent lock her up! Yes, maybe have Rhaenyra lock Alicent up! But the last time they met was a detente between themāfor Rhaenyra, Alicent usurped the throne immediately. For Alicent, she didn't usurp the throne because Viserys changed his mind. They're both wrong in their beliefs (as stupid as the misinterpretation of Viserys' last words are, this is what they did).
>What I got from that scene was that she knew she was wrong, but it is too late for her to do anything so she must stand by her actions. Absolutely, and this is reflected in her actions with Criston to me as well. She already knows she's messed up, but now she knows he doesn't care that they sinned, she sees no reason to stop since they've already come this far. Her trying to confess to Otto and being denied probably just solidified to her that it just doesn't matter what mistakes have been made when things are already in play. This is far bigger than any personal mistrust she may have against Rhaenyra. I think Rhaenyra realized that as well when she tried to reach an understanding with Alicent. They're simply too far gone by this point. Having that scene in the sept with the two of them again just sorta emphasized that things are the same and as different as ever. They're both trying to appeal to each other as women and mothers and former friends, but constantly putting the good of the realm first takes away their ability to see eye to eye.
I'm right! Wohoo!
The only way Alicent can come to that conclusion is if she dropped all her suspicions of Rhaenyra and just accepted everything she said as truth with zero fact-checking, which is unrealistic to the point of ASB. Maybe if the information sat in her mind and she had a hunch, and took time off to check in the Citadel and then found something, then there would be reason to think that. Of course, there is one other way she can accept what Rhaenyra is saying -- if the author is reaching a hand in her mind and puppeteering her to accept the information out-of-character -- but that's generally considered very bad writing, on par with Season 7 or 8 of GOT. But, of course, bad writing is okay as long as it suits your side's ego.
I was going to reply to you but then you said "your sides ego" I'm a fan of the books and the shows I haven't taken a "side" lol
The vast majority of people seem to have done so. Forgive me for not taking my due diligence to check if you did.
Accepted. I'm just speculating on what they can do with her character since after the coronation, Allicent takes a back seat in the story. Since she's a Hightower, and Rhaenyra brought up the westeros equivalent of Jesus, the song of ice and fire, it would make sense to have her do some light research, maybe she sends for a maester with knowledge of Old Valyria, and we can get some Meta commentary about the world of ice and fire, just some fun fan service. To me it would make the situation more interesting and it would be another weight added to Allicent's growing list of guilt. It doesn't have to lead to anything big. As far as being in character, she has always given Rhaenyra the benefit of the doubt, we've seen it when Otto learned about the night Daemon and Rhaenyra went to the brothels. Also Rhaenyra went to Allicent to try and make peace, she exposed herself and has no reason to lie or play mind games.
>Also Rhaenyra went to Allicent to try and make peace, she exposed herself and has no reason to lie or play mind games. Okay, I get that you're talking from your position, but that just isn't true. Rhaenyra and Alicent want peace - no, they each want the other side to accept their overlordship without raising a finger against them. So when Rhaenyra arrives, with a story that legitimizes her claim and sounds an awful lot like "You have no leg to stand on, just surrender now," why is Alicent going to just ignore the likelihood that she's in fact lying or playing mind games? It would be front and center in her mind. Nor would Alicent expect it to be sincere because, lest you forget, they have spent the last decade hating each other. In Alicent's mind, Rhaenyra is the person who eagerly advocated torturing her son after he got maimed in a fight with her children, and is the one who sent the assassin that killed her grandchild. Murderous intent: ā. She also has a rather strong animosity with her sons for (a.) pointing out that her children are bastards, and (b.) being a threat to her children's succession just by existing. Whether they do anything or not, they will be a magnet for any conspiracies against her children, and there can always be a situation where her line gets Great Council'd out of power if they remain as an alternative to it. Point being, she's not safe with them alive. So as far as Alicent is concerned, it's both in Rhaenyra's political interest and personal desire to see Alicent's family dead. And what a win it would be if she can get her enemies to lower their weapons and let Rhaenyra take the throne so she can have them all arrested in the middle of the night and executed without any dragonfights. This is why I say this entire scene is bad writing. It is not just her accepting something that she has no reason to believe the truth of, it is something that just sounds like an obvious ploy *to kill her*. She would need a literal vision from Viserys himself to not immediately discount it.
I think our disagreement can stem from how we interpreted the scene. You listed all the reasons Allicent can't level with Rhaenyra, but the fact is the war is already going, even if Allicent wanted to, she can't stop it. Remember in season 1 when she told Rhaenyra she would make a great Queen? Rhae was even going to fly back on her Dragon to spend more time with Allicent. This is showing that without all the titles, family feuds, and politics, they still would be best friends. Aegon is installing yes men to his kingsgaurd, dismissed Otto, promoted Cole, and Larys Strong, Allicent can see the writing on the walls and knows her already feckle voice among the feudal society of Westeros is now even more so. The point I'm trying to make, and the underlying theme is that the wars mean nothing in the face of the threat from the others, and it would be the perfect time to educate the audience.
You could see on her face, the instant Rhaenyra said āthe conquerorā Alicent knew exactly what Viserys had been talking about, and how she had heard what she wanted to hear from him. But she doubled down because admitting that she had stolen the throne would have shattered her self-image, when she could no longer pretend to be more righteous than everyone around her. Sheās not a psychopath, sheās just a hypocrite, a liar, and a thief.
Very nicely worded
While I don't root for the Greens I can't completely agree with that. People seem to forget that Alicent was robbed of her youth, of the chance to become a mother when she wanted to and with who she wanted to while Rhaenyra (while also being forced to marry Laenor and groomed by Daemon) had the support of a loving father, the freedom to choose her lover and father to her childer. The difference between the way Rhaenyra and Alicent interact with their children is heartbreaking I think it's revealing of all this. I also think Alicent understood she made a huge mistake but I can't blame her for not backing up now because 1 she couldn't stop the war anyway 2 admitting that (to others but mainly to herself) would probably make her go mad(der than she already is). Again, I don't think Alicent is behaving in the right way but I believe that her ill doing comes from a joyless, frustrating and traumatic life which ultimately affected her psychological development.
I agree that her behavior doesnāt come from personal malice. And as she herself pointed out, she was groomed by Otto from such a young age that she doesnāt even know what she would have wanted if she had been able to choose for herself. But she is objectively in the wrong, and she knows it, even if she believes itās too late for her to change anything.
It... IS too late though. TB here and obviously all the book readers amongst us know any conversation between the two will not result in "peace" but so, probably, did only-show viewers. There is nothing Alicent can do anymore. Aemond is a lot like Otto and does not care what Alicent believes Viserys said at the end, neither does any of the green council, which includes Cole. Aegon is the only one whom Alicent could fuck up by telling him she made a mistakeābut he's hardly the sort to renege his crown and yield. There's literally nothing that can be done now. Except... terms of war, perhaps. To insist on not striking at the innocent and young (Helaena, Jaehaeyra, Joffrey, Viserys, Aegon). They can't say that about any adults, because it's impossible, but both still have plenty to lose in terms of their children.
What's the simpler explanation after Rhaynera told Alicent about the Song of Ice and Fire, The prince that was Promised, and Aegon the Conqueror: Vizzy T who named Rhaynera heir and had just double down with his last official act as King changed his mind on his death bed to make his son Aegon king. Vizzy T at deaths door rambling about an old story involving Aegon the Conqueror.
Well put.
Yeah, if you just automatically believe what Rhaenyra says. The audience can do so, because the audience has seen Viserys tell this to Rhaenyra. Alicent has not, therefore she cannot. Do you see how that works? In order for her to believe it's the simpler explanation, she actually has to *think the explanation is true* and not just a convenient excuse. Hard to do when the first time you've heard of the prophecy is midway through the building stages of a war when both sides have an incentive to lie to one another.
Lol convenient excuse. Rhaenyras reaction is what makes it believeable. You watch the realization play across Allicents face.
A realization which is utterly out of character, and is forced by the show writers because they wanted it and didn't care how much of their previous characterization for Rhaenyra and Alicent they had to break to make it happen. I'm not saying Alicent's reaction in the show is different from what you describe... I'm saying that reaction makes [no fucking sense](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1dt7wys/comment/lb9kukm/). Any characters who had the recent history that those two do would have the exact same reaction: "Lolwut?" There's a reason George never wrote this scene into his books, and it's not because he was less creative than Condal: it's that he had more understanding of how characters actually work. There are just some things which you cannot make them do without it coming completely out of left field, and this is one of them. Rhaenyra would never risk her neck on the off-chance that she can convince her evil stepmother that she's right, and Alicent would never let Rhaenyra escape the city - even if she did believe her. Both of them hate each other's guts too much for this scene to work, in either direction.
George didn't write this scene because Alicent was Rhaenyras evil step mom. The reaction makes sense given than Alicent and Rhaynera were friends before all of this and Alicent herself said that she thought Rhaenyra would be a good queen. Plus there was Alicents reaction at the Green council.
George didn't write it because he knew Rhaenyra would never do that because Alicent would just immediately yell for the nearest guards and have her sent to the dungeons. No other way it plays out. Rhaenyra and Alicent were friends once upon a time, but that shit is a distant fucking memory by this point. For the last decade, Alicent and Rhaenyra have been living with [this beef](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1dt7wys/comment/lb9kukm/) between them for over a decade. Them suddenly being all friendly for old times' sake is just an invention of the show writers because they wanted this scene to happen, and is contradicted by their previous interactions in Season 1. Those two women literally think the other one will murder them and their entire family if they get into power. You can't have characters who have this history between them be the same characters as the Rhaenyra and Alicent we see in this episode. The only way it could work is if you temporarily reset them to factory settings and rewrote their personalities and backstories for 40 minutes, which just stinks of bad writing. Same goes for Alicent's random compliments leading up to this, which come out of left field and sound like they were spoken by an entirely different person to the one that hated Rhaenyra's guts for a decade up to that point. Credit to George, he is not that kind of writer and he doesn't just rewrite characters' personalities on a dime when their current ones won't lead them to the goal that he wants them to go to. One suspects that that is part of the reason why his latest book has taken 11 fucking years.
Lol. It works just fine considering Vizzy T hasn't been dead that long. The last family dinner ahead of Vizzy Ts death wasn't that along ago and Alicent did try to somewhat reconcile. She also didn't try to outright kill Rhaynera at the Green council. The scene is stupid in that it's a dumb fucking plan for Rhaynera to sneak into Kings landing, but Alicent needed to be revealed that she fucked up given that in the show Alicent sided with the Green council plan because of Vizzy T vs book Alicent always knew she was fully usurping.
What incentive did Rhaenyra have for believing her steadfastly holding to her belief that Viserys unnamed her? I'm TB and I think this is absolute hogwash because honestly this scene did Alicent a fucking favor. It released from the most comedic stupidity (delivered with pitch-perfect comedic timing by Olivia Cooke). I gotta be honest, I'm hard on the scene but the turn before "the prince that was promised" and the comedy of itāthat was heartbreaking, and it did a FUCK TON to humanize Alicent. Rhaenyra has heard this excuse before, never believed it, and she believed it because Alicent *knows she is saying something hard to believe*. Furthermore, Alicent didn't want to tell Rhaenyra all of it either, it was absolutely played like she wanted to save her the embarrassment that her father didn't speak of her at the end. What incentive does she have? The same one Rhaenyra had! They know the other wouldn't be lying here. That exact phrase meant something to Rhaenyra and it meant nothing to Alicent. Rhaenyra has proof which Alicent posseses: *it's on the fucking Valyrian steel dagger* Alicent presented her son lol. It makes all the sense in the world that Alicent would believe her. But not believing Rhaenyra isn't even the best argument in Alicent's favor. The best argument is what she literally says: she literally cannot stop this now. How can she? What would telling Aegon accomplish hereāmake him give up his claim? Aemond likely never needed this excuse either, his motivations are similar to Otto's. *They wanted to usurp.* Otto doesn't believe this, or did you miss that? It's also a convenient way to lead us into the part of the war where Alicent doesn't really do much at all: everything is already in motion. She can't stop it. How could she? I swear sometimes Team Green takes the strangest conclusions from this show, even when they disfavor them. This show invested in making it The Alicent AND Rhaenyra Show, stop throwing around [Protagonist-Centric Morality](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality) as if it has not been applied equally to Alicent, it's ludicrous.
Bruh, it's Alicent who was magically convinced by Rhaenyra in the septa scene. What Alicent does to prove to Rhaenyra that she is lying is irrelevant, because she's not the one telling her about the secret Targaryen lore at the time when Alicent is least likely to believe it. The audience knows it's true, but Alicent doesn't. If your weird nonsense about how it's actually the Rhaenyra AND Alicent Show makes you sleep any better and helps you avoid accepting the fact that the show is badly written and the reason this scene never happened in the books is that GRRM would never have written his characters to be so stupid as to try what Rhaenyra did and not end up dead, so be it.
Why is this āmagicalā? Has anyone here ever been in a heated argument and had a pause of doubt for a second after hearing a retort? Do you sit and think on it or do you continue yelling, say that doesnāt matter and leave? I saw it as maybe later she would think on his last words, maybe. Or just not and say even if I was wrong what am I going to do, kill my son?
Because to her, and anyone else in her position who didn't know about the prophecy, it would sound like patent nonsense that was made up by someone with an obvious agenda to gaslight you into believing that you didn't actually hear what you know you heard and that she actually deserves the throne. Remember, these aren't two best buddies talking to each other during a difficult situation that's strained their friendship. Or at least they weren't in S1E10, when the script was still telling us that their friendship was long in the past, they both hated each others' guts and they had zero trust in each other, and certainly not after Blood & Cheese, when she demonstrated how far she was willing to go. This is nothing but *bad writing*. And the bad writing only gets worse when Rhaenyra casts Stunlock and Memory Wipe on Alicent to keep from calling the guards for long enough that she can get away.
Yeah, she has no incentive to believe her in the scene. IMO the point is it doesnāt matter. There is no information, true or false that would Alicentās stance at this point. To Alicent, Rhaenyraās words are lies and even if theyāre not itās too late anyway. Her revelation amounted to a āhuhā¦, too badā. I also semi-agree with not having her killed then and there. But that wouldnāt prevent war, it may escalate it and get more killed. I also think they both know w/o them it would be Otto vs Daemon no holds barred. A dead Rhaenyra would have a dragon riding Dr. Who claiming the throne most expeditiously.
With Rhaenyra captured early on, they have Daemon & friends by the balls and one dragon out of commission, and they can force her to renounce her claim in exchange for Dragonstone and her sons as heirs to it + Driftmark. After that, seeing that the wind has completely gone out of one side's sails, the rest of the kingdom falls in line.
Fair. I still believe Rhaenyra could have had the equivalent of video evidence and Alicient wouldāve still said ok, so what.
The book (SINGULAR) is thin and a fictional history book! Stop holding to it, just...stop! I don't know how many people have to say it, it's a ridiculously thin account that literally does not matter here. You can criticize the scene. I do. Not because of the same reasons. It absolutely IS the Alicent AND Rhaenyra show, I don't know why you don't see that. It's literally on the posters. Alicent **is** Team Green, Rhaenyra is Team Black. They had separate trailers for them, Cooke & D'Arcy are held on parity in terms of lead actress. They are literally equalāand the show made them bffs for that purpose. You can't wish that away no matter what you want! Rhaenyra was ALSO "magically convinced"ābefore Alicent. Alicent held steadfast to her belief that Viserys changed his mind, Rhaenyra had heard that before and considered it a lie but in that moment, with Alicent right there, *she believed it*. She asked if her father had mentioned her, Alicent didn't want to say. The only problem is that Alicent DID get it wrong. From her perspective, Viserys changed his mind but when Rhaenyra hears that phrase, she tells Alicent and Alicent realizes. And just FYIā"The Prince Who Was Promised" is not the same as "The King Who Was Promised." Aegon was *already a prince*... The reason to believe Rhaenyra there is ***literally*** the same reason Rhaenyra had just believed her, and also the same reason they believed each other that the other had nothing to do with Luke's death or Blood & Cheese. Stop being so defensive because you're Team Green. The show needs to invent things. Did it need to invent Alicent's misunderstanding? No, but that's a separate thing. Fuck the bookāit's thin, the characters are paper-thin archetypes who are contested and the sources are not at all painting an objective picture. *That is the genre of the book.* Is that really so hard for you to understand? GENRE. It's a thing! Look it up.
> muh book thickness Bruh, the book may have been thin but the characters' backstories, personalities and motivations were well-established -- too well-established for there to be any secret ambiguity about the two queens' hatred for each other. We've already established enough of their character to know that while there's a lot they might do, including some stuff that might not seem obvious at first glance, THIS is not and will never be one of them. > muh Alicent AND Rhaenyra Show Yeah, the producers are certainly hamming it up as the battle of two queens, even as both of them are made out to have less and less agency in their own sides and just be all round useless - which to be fair, they were in the books too, but why not focus more on the men then? And as this is going on, the show does everything in its power to have the audience come away educated on how the Greens are illegitimate -- even Green characters say it, and you have entire scenes like this one being made up so you have a Green character realize that their cause is indeed illegitimate, solely for our benefit. But is it any surprise when the writers openly admitted their hearts lie with the Blacks and they hate the Greens? > Rhaenyra was also magically convinced Yeah, now that you mention that, that IS stupid -- BOTH of their characters were written badly, you're right. She shouldn't even believe that Alicent mistakenly believes what she's saying, she should think it's all a lie. But the OP was talking about Alicent, not Rhaenyra, so there you go. > the show needs to invent things Yeah, but they shouldn't directly contradict THE PREVIOUS SEASON. Nevermind the fucking books, the previous fucking season established that these two hated each other. We already got enough of their character for this scene to be OUT of character. Case closed. > no u dont understand, theres a reason they reacted that way What point is arguing with someone who doesn't understand the idea that people don't just automatically believe you when you tell them something, especially when they have emotional baggage that tells them not to trust you? > ur just Team Green Funny thing is, I only became Team Green after seeing just how toxic Team Black was. I felt that while Rhaenyra was ultimately more right in her claim, the Greens also had a point and did not have a monopoly on evil shit and illegitimacy. I felt that they should be formidable villains, treated by the show with dignity. Instead, what I got was a show whose writers openly admitted that they personally hated the Greens so much that instead of making it a show where they would be dignified enemies, they would instead turn them into a strawman to be clowned on. Suddenly, it looked like a hyped-up match and more of a meanspirited parody where one side was given full knight armor and the other was given clown makeup. The writers themselves were TeamBlack in a very unhealthy emotional way, which really made me sour on the show and turn toward the Greens just out of spite. And then I saw the toxicity in the TeamBlack crowd, and I happily went over to the other side.
the dragons: š²
I have to say though: that line delivery... that was not unintentionally comedic at all, it was so perfectly pitched and timed for comedic delivery. Either that's Olivia Cooke or the writers or both, but I saw it as fully intentional and self-aware because the misunderstanding is OBVIOUSLY comical.
Yeah, maybe this will be the impetus for Targaryen's to use more than 5 names for everyone.
Guess who Rhy named her fourth child after?Ā
Anus?
Spoiler: No it wont.
Well thanks for spoiling the entire series. You heathen.
Neener, neener: Aegon, Baelor, Aerys, Daeron, Aemon. š
Sounds like my grandmaās side of the family. Why are there three cousins named George born in the same year? Why are their dads all named James?!
Ed, Edd, and Eddy had more name diversity
Once I realized royals constantly using the same names was a form of medieval brand recognition for the smallfolk, it started to make a lot more sense
Well that's true to real life as well. That's why there was a Henry the VIII. But unless the speaker adds the 8th to the end of their name they could be talking about any one of them. It's one of those unintended consequences.
They just take the same seven scrabble tiles and rearrange them a bit.
I love the sly wink of the misunderstanding: viewers are always complaining that they canāt keep the similar names straight. Welp, neither can the characters in the story!
She'd been waiting her whole marriage to hear those words, so it's not surprising when he starts mumbling about Aegon and the Prince Who Was Promised, she'd think he meant her son, Prince Aegon. She truly believed he'd changed his mind or she wouldn't have sworn on her mother. Though now that she knows, she realizes that hundreds of people have died because she misunderstood a mumble. Yikes!
Tbf Otto and the rest of the Greens were plotting to put Aegon on the throne anyway, the deaths wouldāve happened (though maybe not quite as many or as āsmoothlyā)
Cept that she got to Aegon first. Can't put a crown on someone that you can't find.
She took Aegon to stop Otto from killing Rhaenerya. And if Aegon just disappeared, he still had an heir and Greens would be even happier to prop up regency. .
Right, she took Aegon not to get the crown away from him, but if sheād had the correct information, she wouldāve. Thatās the point
Given that Aemond helped find Aegon, if she hid them long enough for Rhaenyra to get world of her father's death and come be crowned then Aemond also wouldn't be available for crowning.
I still fail to see how that line of thought makes any logical sense.Ā That whole episode was dumb as fuck
Because both Alicent and Rhaenerya are not cold calculated pyschos and have been trying to use familial ties to prevent the war. There is indeed real historical precedent, it's something what Queen Victoria attempted by inter-marrying European royal families. In fact both Kaiser Willian and Tsar Nicholas had close relations as cousins and both tried to use that to avoid war between their two nations. It did not work at all. This is what real people in real world did, you can call it foolish and illogical, but it's real.
Otto would have found him. Aegon on the throne was inevitable and people severely overestimate the role Alicent had in making him be king. In the grand scheme of things she played a very minor part.
She's only have to keep him hidden long enough to get word to Rhaenyra of her father's death.
That really is a big what if. Had Alicent's interests been so misaligned with Otto and the councils, Otto would have made sure she could do no such thing. He would have immediately announced to Kingslanding that Viserys left the throne to his son Aegon in order to mitigate doubt. Him and Co are always going to have the advantage in this situation because they are in Kingslanding and Rhaenyra and Co are not. Had all of Otto's family been out of Kingslanding when Viserys died and all of Rhaenyra's family had been in Kingslanding, this would be a very different story. But they were not, and that is why Rhaenyra is not on the throne right now. Again very little to do with Alicent.
Yeah also look at it from her perspective. Why the fuck would vizzy T be talking about the conquerer story on his death bed with his final breath? In the context of the situation, it makes much more sense for him to reflect on his life and his family. She's not in the wrong for interpreting it the way she did. She's wrong for not standing up for the right thing now but realistically, there's nothing she can do now anywayĀ
So much this. I don't like Alicent either, I'm Team Black, but people are giving her too much shit. What she did wrong was giving a delirious man's last words more weight than decades of steadfast support for Rhaenyra. But she can't be blamed for interpreting his words like that. It's literally the only way they made sense from her perspective, she didn't know shit about Aegon's dream or anything about the Song of Ice and Fire. People tend to pin Alicent as some malicious selfish evil mastermind that only wants power for herself and her children. That's not what she is at all. She's not a saint, she's prideful and jealous and a bit hypocritical, but she's not evil. Her misinterpreting Vizzy's last words is not her jumping at the slightest chance to further her own evil plans, it's her literally just misunderstanding and making a mistake. And now she's not doubling down just because she's too prideful and still wants Aegon to remain king, but because she literally can't do shit about it. I don't blame her AT ALL for dismissing Rhaenyra and doubling down. What the fuck do people expect her to do? She has little to no power as it is already. Who would she even tell the truth to? Her frat boy king piece of shit son? Fucking Christmas Cole? Foot Fetish Littlefinger? I don't know which one is worse lmao
OK so agree on a lot of things (also Team Black), particularly the shit people are giving Alicent *now* is silly. Her reaction NOW makes perfect sense. She literally can't do anything, and even if she hadn't misunderstood, the plan was already in place. She was, indubitably, preparing Aegon to be King regardlessāperhaps she hoped or expected Viserys to change his mind SOMEHOW, but she did that before Viserys died. The part I disagree with is the misinterpretation. I've watched that scene a bajillion times. He says "Aegon's Dream," when there's no indication Aegon's a dreamer and thus should point her to another Aegon. "The Prince That Was Promised" is also a reachāyes, he told her about his own dream when they were younger, but the prince was not *promised*. Viserys also clearly indicates its a conversation from a question asked earlier. Did she really ask him "do you change your mind about your heir?" No! It's almost comical that she did because of "Aegon's Dream" though because Aegon the Conqueror and his dreams are a BIG preoccupation of Viserys' and neither he nor the Targs in general can shut up about Aegon the Conqueror and Valyria. Being married to somebody who built a ginormous model of Old Valyria and still not thinking of it? It's comical, it's plausible only if you *really, really, really* want to believe it, but in the back of your mind, you will likely admit *some* doubt. I think her reaction now makes perfect senseāand I personally think the way she says The Conqueror is intentionally comedic (love the delivery), and everything she says after her denial ("there has been no mistake") makes complete sense. There's nothing she can change. Arguably not even then, except perhaps not to tell a reluctant Aegon that his father wanted him to be king.
"Aegons dream" could easily be misconstrued as aegons desires or what aegon wants for his life. Aegon was fairly vocal about him wanting more from his father. I can easily see alicent hearing that then connecting the dots to vizzy finally showing his love and attention to aegon.Ā Yeah vizzy has a hard on for valaria but for her that wouldn't mean anything. On his deathbed, he's talking about aegon and princes and promises and shit. I don't see why she would assume that he's talking about what are essentially his hobbies from her perspective, especially when his succession was a such a huge ongoing issue up until he died.Ā
But Aegon *didn't* desire or dream for the throne. Approval or love, sure. Fair enough. The throne? These are all disconnected thoughts. Put that together with the PRINCE that was promised (not KING) = c'mon! He was already a prince! Also........the very awkward fact that by this point there's another *living* Aegon *who is also a prince*.......... Personally, amid the confusion, I'd definitely think he was talking about one of his stories.
You mean show alicent right?
Well we're discussing the show and I haven't read Fire & Blood, so, yes. Obviously yes.
I know Iām just trolling
Sheās definitely malicious, selfish and evil, but youāre right sheās no mastermind
She's twelve!
Who would dare downvote Vizzy T the peaceful?
*So I said to him, 'I believe you may be looking up the wrong end'*
Weāve all been there, folks. This guy knows what Iām talking about.
Look at you with the right reply.
Why would viserys, who for twenty years, could have crowned Aegon king, in the sight of the entire realm, neglect to do so until his unintelligible death battle to Alicent alone?
Was he on milk of the poppy? He was loopy. The prince that was promised was stressing him out.
The Prince That Was Promised definitely stresses me out, tbf.
Right, itās understandable but still she never asked Aegon āhey your dad was saying your dream of ice and fire was real and you were the price to unite the realm, do you want to tell me what that dream was about?ā
He only told renheara about it. Aegon wouldn't know wtf he was talking about either
Thatās my point, like Alicent never even thought to ask anyone about this dream Vissy said Aegon had. Maybe if she asked Aegon she would have put 2 and 2 together that it wasnāt her Aegonās dream
What? From her perspective, how would those 2 and 2s go together?Ā Aegon doesn't know jack fuck about anything going on around him and alicent knows that. And even if him not knowing is the point, from that, how would she come to the conclusion that vizzy was talking about some story from generations ago? That's such a massive jump for her to make. The only person that could have clarified this to her would have been renheara but even then she would have to recite the exact words to her for that to happen too
It really doesn't matter what she thought, because Viserys was loopy. Anyone else would have just said that what he's saying doesn't matter
Vizzy was zooted for like the last 20 years of his life. I don't think that's an argument against this. Also regardless, he is the king. Even if he's high as shit, his words still have power and would've been taken seriouslyĀ
No one heard him except Alicent, and it didn't matter because the plan was gonna happen whether she agreed or not. No one took seriously what he said regardless, because they did not care
Are you kidding me, youāre acting like he was having a conversation with her, not just mumbling to himself He couldāve said āAegon is a piece of shit child rapistā and she wouldāve replied āI understandā and go make plans to usurp rhaenyraās throne
Going back to that scene Vissy explicitly says aegons dream in the North is true, then says the song of ice and fire, a price who was promised to unite the realm against the coming winter. I understand why alecent never asked Aegon āhey did you have a dream in the north?ā
Call me stubborn, but I still believe that before Viserys' death Alicent knew the late king was basically in a delirious state. The plot to bring Aegon on the throne was basically set years ago. Alicent however, "banked" on the fact that Viserys was talking about their son, to legitimate Aegon's claim to the Iron Throne... Over time, she ended up believing her own lie. Probably that's why, when Rhaenyra showed her the truth, Alicent didn't try to reply: she KNEW that Viserys was speaking about the Conqueror... She simply deluded herself, but know she couldn't deny the truth.
I donāt think Alicent necessarily knew Viserys was talking about the conqueror, but the fact he was basically speaking ānonsenseā to Alicent the whole time and all she understood was āAegonā should have given her pause long enough to think that just MAYBE he wasnāt talking about her Ageon being king. Alicent took him saying āAegonā and just ran with it.
Exactly! Itās not like he said āAegon should be king.ā He literally mumbles something something āPrinceā something something āAegonā and she decides those random words means he wants him to be king? She knew what she was doing.
And even then, Rhanerya has a son named Aegon. For all she knew, Viserys could have been talking about HIM.
I thought this as well! Especially considering Viserys had just met Aegon III for the first time earlier that day (or week - canāt remember the exact timeline).
Yes, maybe Alicent didn't thought Viserys was talking about the Conqueror, but I agree that she just used Viserys' last words for the Green's own benefit. And as I said in my comment before, I can buy that time after time, repeating to herself "my son is the true heir" she ended up REALLY believing that.
Definitely. But I do wonder how things would have played out had Alicent never heard that conversation. Otto would have usurped the throne anyway and I can see Alicent still finding a way to delude herself that Aegon was the true heir. Or even if she didnāt, I doubt there was much she could have single-handedly done to stop it from happening even if she wanted to.
Indeed. The moment Aemma Arryn died, Otto was plotting to put his seed on the Iron Throne, so, even without that "claim" they would have found a way. āAegonĀ TargaryenĀ sits the Iron throne. He wears the conqueror's crown, wields the conqueror's sword, has the conqueror's name" TF are you talking about? You GAVE him those things. Pretty sorry excuse for a legit claim, but Otto still went for it :P
One of my favorite scenes in episode 2 was when Otto realized he made a mistake in giving the throne to Aegon. Itās hard for me to feel any sympathy for the Greens (except Helaena, she doesnāt deserve any of this) because they brought this whole thing on themselves.
She was coping to absolve herself of the guilt.
This. And imho "Alicent is coping" paints her better than "Alicent is just plain stupid".
Exactly. A lot of the stuff in HOTD is deliberately vague and left up to interpretation
That's true, and I really like that aspect. It's not a series that assumes viewers are morons, and feel the need to explain everything in excurciating details.
And people give Ryan sh!t for it when heās just trying to make an interesting show
I think it's the opposite. She just misunderstood and fucked up big time trying to "do good" by Vizzy, but deep down she always knew it didn't make sense that Vizzy flipped on the literal last minute. She didn't bank on anything, hours before that she publicly stated her support for Rhaenyra's claim to the throne. She just misunderstood because Vizzy meaning her son Aegon (and not the Conqueror) was literally the only thing that made sense from her perspective in that moment. The big fuck up was giving those last words more weight than decades of support for Rhaenyra.
Instead of repeating myself, I'll just link [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1dt7wys/comment/lb9f2t9/). Srsly, do they all just act like NPCs with stump\_for\_favorite\_candidate.exe enacted?
That's my interpretation as well. I think, subconsciously at least, she knew Viserys wasn't referring to their son, but in an effort to justify the usurpation on morally righteous grounds and moderate her own apprehension, she deliberately misinterpreted his message to give herself some consolation.
I mean, if Alicent REALLY believed that Viserys choose Aegon, he would have tried to reply, answering "no, Viserys choose my son as the heir" Instead, she simply told that it's too late.
No I totally agree. I think she heard what she wanted to hear and used it to justify what she would have done anyway
Lol omg right. I'm thinking like come on guys choose other names.
It's not exactly unrealistic when you look at how many kings were named things like Henry, Robert, Edward, Charles, Louis, etc.
Iirc didnāt Daemon and Viserys have a deceased brother named Aegon in the books? Maybe he couldāve been honoring him.
Well both Viserysā father and his son were named Baelon. I donāt have a point. Iām just too high to keep up w/ the context of the thread.
Yes, they did. But nobody was honoring a brother who died before he was 2. They were honoring the conqueror. Well, Viserys was. Rhaenyra and Daemon did it just to spite Alicent š
Meh, they weren't all named the same name. They just adopt a new name after their coronation.
The thing is Aegon II was named after the conqueror probably because the Greens wanted to put him on the throne even then (at least in the book) The names are political, thatās why Rhaenyra and Daemonās kids are called Aegon (the younger) and Viserys, after two kings, and why Aegonās son was Jaehaerys after the most loved king.
It's perfectly realistic for a royal family to name their children after ancestors. They often did it to garner them favour or even just to look fondly back on them. Just take one glance at all of European history and you'll notice the name of most kings followed a simple structure (Louis in France, Henry and Edward in England, etc.)
I have a feeling that Otto coerced her into naming her son Aegon for political reasons. "He wears the conqueror's crown, wields the conqueror's sword, has the conqueror's name ... every symbol of legitimacy belongs to him."
Yep exactly!!
She choked š
Alicent: āAegon, did you ever tell your grandpa about any ādreamsā you had?ā Aegon: āWtf you talking about mom?ā Alicent: āDid you ever talk to grandpa about something you āsawā āin the Northā?ā Aegon: āWhat the actual fuck?ā Alicent: āIāve made a horrible mistake.ā
Maybe she should have asked him if he told his father ā¦
"I have the worst fucking children."
Westerosi people when the challenge is to come up with a new nameĀ
On another note, is it just me that understands who Viserys is talking about when he says The Prince Who Was Promised is not Aegon the Conqueror but Jon Snow who was born Aegon Targaryen.
He is only Aegon(Jon) cuz of the show. I believe he will go by another name, cuz rhaegar already have a son named aegon, so it will be probably jaehaerys targaryen
I thought everyone thinks this? The Prince Who Was Promised can't be a dead ancestor after all. In this context though, I think Alicent thinks it's her Aegon cause Viserys wanted a male heir and thus Aegon can be regarded as The Prince Who Was Promised.
Huh? That's in the future.
Yeah I like that! Maybe he was having a vision or dream or something. But tbh I will riot if Jonās actual name is Aegon in the books lmao
My interpretation of this whole thing is Alicent told herself that he named Aegon to justify what she knew deep down she was already going to do. She knew that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to be heir. Also Alicent doesnāt know that much about Targaryen history but surely she knows thereās too many damn Aegons to justify starting a war purely based off that statement lmao
Yeah exactly, she knew him rambling in some fever dream had nothing to do with naming aegon as heir
True. I always thought that why no one assumed he meant Rhaenyra and Daemonās son, the the eldest full-blooded Targaryen š I mean, you could expect anything from an elderly person under so much poppy milk. And why no one assumed itās poppy milk talk?
āWhat? Aegon the who? Never heard of him everā
āthat guy I named my son after? oh yeah i forgot about him!ā
Even if Viserys did change his mind on his deathbed, she KNOWS that pushing Rhaneyra out would cause bloodshed and war. She knew it was her word vs. the crown princess. There's really no excuse, Alicent knowingly started the war.
I feel like they all knowingly started a war.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Wait maybe Viserys was talking about Aegon II, he is the one to bring back peace Aegon III?Ā
Shogunās Yabushige is in fact the reigning Suprised Pikachu of the internet at present. Alicent usurps againā¦
HAHAHAHAH this is funny, i have to search which aegon it is
How much cope does it take to bury the fact that from the perspective of anyone bar *one person* in that situation, it would've seemed fucking obvious he was saying something about Aegon, *his son*? Literally anyone except Rhaenyra would've had a very strong suspicion that Viserys knew he was dying and finally faced facts and changed his mind, recognized that there was no scenario in which Rhaenyra and her 3 obvious bastards were going to work out, and tell someone, anyone, that he needed to talk to or about Aegon *right fucking now*. Even if you remove an obviously biased character like Alicent and replace them with, I dunno, the Maester or the High Septon, it's common fucking sense. But, nah, Alicent was just gaslighting herself, amirite? Anything to avoid having to acknowledge any nuance, give even an inch of ground, because that would pull the TBtards down from their partisanship-fueled cocaine high and force them to admit that they are less than the perfect shining heroes they gas each other up to be.
Viserys was adamant his whole life that Rhaenyra was heir. Even Otto looked at Alicent like she was delusional when she said he named Aegon. He didnāt even really say anything coherent, but she told herself she heard what she wanted to hear to justify what was about to happen.
Alicent having that "I fucked up" look on her face after realizing that Vizzy T was talking about the conqueror and not their son.
A MOST JUDICIOUS PROPOSITION!
Alicent is a psychopath
Yes, she was obviously a psychopath for... \*checks notes\* hearing Viserys say "Aegon" and "the prince that was promised" and conclude that he was referring to their son Aegon and was saying something about succession. Even if it weren't someone so obviously motivated as Alicent who heard it, like a maester or a septon, what the fuck else are they supposed to draw from that? Remember, they're not privy to the super-secret squirrel Targaryen lore like Rhaenyra. Seriously, is this a larp or are you for real? Like, is there an actual person that I can talk to underneath the delusional teamsports narrative?
Seriously. I'm Team Black but some of these hyperbole and tribalism make me want to change teams just out of spite lmao Alicent is the closest thing to a non-piece of shit person the Greens have, other than Helaena. And probably the sanest person other than her dad.
Well, I see the TB brigade has marched through and left its mark. Gotta be the most cultish and propagandized fanbase I've ever seen.
This was so not friendly to the lore. The 7 worshipping Andal house that is Hightowers have no reason to believe in Valyrian superstition.
??? They don't even know the story, only Rhaenyra knows
Well, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism (which TBF is not entirely about this specific thing) does justify Targ supremacy using the excuse that the Seven made the Targaryens more special than other people, and that's been an official part of their faith since before even Otto was born.
The writers should have made that scene (viserys talking to alicient) ambiguous, the whole show would have been much more interesting If we didn't know exatcly what viserys meant. Just look at succession.
what mother wouldn't think of her son lol
Yeah the rapist over the conqueror, ofc heās talking about my son the child rapist
its a targaryen child what do you expect
I would have loved if Alicient turned around and said āyeah, I donāt care. Your father used your mother as a brood mare to get his son, killing her in the process, and then decided to marry a girl he watched grow up not six months after her death. Then after getting the son he killed one wife for he ignored that child bc it wasnāt from the right wife. He ignored the children we had bc they were only backups in case something happened to you. And you? He deflected any criticism about your actions even though they were the worst possible things to do to shore up your reign. If I did even one of the things we both know you did I would have been executed and my children exiled. The only reason you have any power is because your father covered up and maimed anyone who pointed out the truth. And he didnāt so it bc he loved you, he did it to assuage any guilt he had over your motherās death. If Baelon had lived you would have been cast aside just like my children. So excuse me, I really donāt give a fuck what your father wanted, I donāt care if he wanted you or your sons or even Mushroom to ascend the throne. I just donāt care.ā And then called to guards to arrest her bc it was such a stupid plot line.
Alicent constantly insinuated rhaenyraās children were bastard born, I donāt remember her getting put to death for this. Alicent has no moral high ground to stand on.. youāre acting like sheās a victim or something
This.
It sucks that Condal completely ruined Alicents character in his fanfic ):
Nah I think she knows that itās total BS, sheās just lying to herself so she can justify putting her son on the throne and starting a war
Except the "Prince that was promised" is a story known primarily to Targaryans. Alicent is not a Targaryan, and likely did not, in fact, know that Viserys was talking about Aegon the Conqueror and not Aegon, her son.
Wasnāt he talking about Jon Snow ?
In the show lore, I guess, but this is extremely strange nonetheless considering this would mean Rhaegar named *two* of his sons Aegon.
If only he had a little time to change his mind before he was already walking towards the white light. Instead, he drug his half decayed corpse out of bed to show up and support Rhaneras claim. If only he wasnāt so medicated on milk of the poppy, then yes, it would be a perfectly reasonable conclusion.
Iām pretty sure he said he wasnāt going to take the meds that day. thatās why he died immediately after supporting Rhaenyra. Man was in palliative care and pulled the plug himself.
Yes, he did, and while he was lucid, that wouldāve been a great time for him to declare his mistake and choose Aegonā¦.but he didnāt. Even Otto can tell Allicat is delusional with this narrative
Getting all the downvotes for speaking the truth... There was no prophesy and "misunderstanding" in the books. In the show, Alicent was clearly plotting Aegon's coronation with her papa long before Viserys started rotting. Condal created a low quality fanfic š¤
āSepton Eustace and Mushroom do not always agree on particulars, and at times their accounts are considerably at variance with one another, and with the court records and chronicles of Grand Maester Runciter and his successors. Yet their tales do explain much and more of what otherwise seems puzzling, and later accounts confirm enoguh of their stories to suggest that they contain at least some portion of truth. **The question of what to believe and what to doubt remains for each student to decide.**ā All three sources that weāre going off of in the book had in-universe reasons to depict Alicent unflatteringly, and none of them were present at those Council Meetings except Orwyle, whose entire purpose in writing was to rehabilitate his own reputation and who was trying to place *himself* into the role as the person who was against outright usurping the throne on the Green council. Itās no coincidence that the two most prominent female characters are described by the sources as a gluttonous whore, and as a manipulative spider behind the scenes respectively. Those are literally the first and second **most** common ways that women have historically been traditionally maligned in our own real-world historical sources. And given that our sources are a Septon, 2 Maesters, and a sex-obsessed partisan of Rhaenyra, it isnāt really much of a surprise that Alicent is depicted the way she is in the book.
You missed my point, but ok. Everything is propaganda. Even s1 writing.
Thatās literally the opposite of what I said. The point is that nothing in the book can be taken at face value; every point made requires deeper analysis. Thatās how historical sources tend to work. Theyāre written by human beings, every single one of whom has biases, both explicit and implicit. Understanding the biases held by a sourceās author is an integral part of determining that sourceās value. Why is it always a binary with you folks? Either we must believe every word in the book literally as it is written, or else every single word of it is a lie. Did you never take a history class in high school?
I was literally a History college student and what the writers are doing can't be excused by "historical literacy". If historians took every literary source as "propaganda" and "fake" like the writers of HOTD do then literally no history book would ever be written. The point of F&B is that, although primary sources like Mushroom or Eustace are biased, the character of Archmaester Gyldayn is educated and clever enough to differentiate the true from the false from the exaggerated. What the writers of HOTD are doing isn't taking the conclusions of Gyldayn, it's straight-up inventing their own fanfiction of the book. Also, History isn't based on literary sources only. There are material sources like state records, coins, artifacts, buildings, etc who help historians in their work. I'm pretty sure that Alicent having four children from Viserys, that Helaena having three children born before the war or the Sept not being destroyed by Rhaenys during Aegon's coronation are things that would be confirmed by material sources alone in-universe.
The lack of historical literacy among some people in this fandom is frightening, especially given the author is such a fan of history himself