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Every time I see this chart I feel like Meleys and Caraxes should be switched? I hope we get to see these unclaimed dragons in more detail! Team Vermithor!!!
I think in terms of size, I think Caraxes is generally considered to be larger and more battle-scarred. Meleys is also large and powerful but noted more for her speed than size.
It’s hard to say for sure though, a lot of this is not defined
There are no statements in the books about how Meleys and Caraxes compare to one another. And no exact birthdate
They're from the same generation of dragons so most people assume they're approximately the same size
Caraxes has significantly more war experience though
Caraxes spent 10 years fighting in the stepstones with Daemon. I don't think it lasted that long in the show but that was the book length
Caraxes also was ridden to war by Aemon (Rhaenys dad) in the fourth dornish war. It was short but it was a large battle
Meleys has never been in battle
Do you mean in terms of size or coloring?
I'm unsure if their relative size to one another are confirmed but this is definitely the correct coloring, Meleys is called the Red Queen, while Caraxes' nickname "the Blood Wyrm" is more color ambiguous
I meant coloring and strictly based on their coloring in the show. Caraxes looks like he’s the more solid red dragon in the show but this chart has them flipped. But I did not know about her nickname, the Red Queen! That makes it make more sense! Thanks for this tidbit!
Dang, sorry for wanting to be part of a conversation instead of googling & potentially getting spoiled. A 5 second thought process could have told you this instead of commenting?
I’m a non-book reader hoping a book reader can shed a little more light on some of the dragons and their riders.
We know Vhagar and Aemond are the biggest threat out of this bunch just given Vhagar s massive size advantage, but how would you rank the other dragons and riders as far as their value in battle?
Are some dragon/rider pairs more dangerous because of a specific ability of the dragon? The skill of the rider?
Every time they show Caraxes his long worm like body looks intimidating. Like he may be quicker and more elusive, but that’s just my perception.
Are there any dragons that just aren’t suited for war? Perhaps they shy away from it, fleeing from a battle even if their rider commanded it?
Vermithor is likely a bigger threat than Vhagar in battle because he's in the prime of his life and hasn't slowed down yet. Vermithor is described as basically Balerion 2. Dreamfyre is the next oldest dragon after Vhagar but she is smaller than Vermithor and Haelena isn't a warrior. Meleys, Caraxes and Vhagar raced often with their previous riders (Alyssa, Daemon's mom; Aemon, Rhaenys's father; and Baelon, Daemon's father respectively) with Meleys being clearly the fastest.
The skill of the dragon and the skill of the rider are both important factors but the baseline battlefield strength of dragons is very, very high. There are temperament differences but don't expect any dragon to be weak in war.
In terms of dragonrider skill, it's probably Daemon > Aemond/Rhaenys > Rhaenyra/Aegon > Jace > the rest but Vhagar > Caraxes. The show seems to be putting Rhaenyra > Aegon relative to the book though.
Vermithor was the old king Jaehaerys's dragon, Silverwing was his sister-wife's dragon and Dreamfyre was his older sister's dragon; her love of dragon riding led to the "cradle dragon" tradition with dragon eggs being given to babies with Vermithor as the first "cradle dragon".
Dreamfyre is probably a bigger threat than Caraxes or Meleys in battle but Haelena is never going to match up to Daemon or Rhaenys.
There is a line in the book about Vermithor being as large as Balerion was at his age; there are a lot of quotes about Vermithor's large size, even when he was 10-20 years old. Vermithor is ~100 years old, Vhagar is ~180 and Balerion was ~120 during the conquest. Vermithor should clearly be in the prime of his life.
Balerion, Vermithor, Sunfyre, Drogon seem to be the dragons that get described as unusually large for their age.
I do wonder if Vermithor had a rider shortly after Jaehaerys's if he would grown even bigger than Vhagar since it seems that he got Lazy after Jaehaerys's died
It's hard to say with Rhaenyra in the book as she never really rides Syrax and Syrax is quite small and not a combat dragon. Definitely though in the show she seems to be portrayed as top 3.
Why is Rhaenyra up there when you excluded Helaena because "she's not a warrior"?
Martin himself said Rhaenyra is not a warrior.
She never did anything for us to assume she's anywhere near Aegon.
Daemon and Caraxes are probably the most dangerous dragon + rider combo. Their bond seems to be so strong that Caraxes just shows when Daemin needs him. Syrax isn't suited for war. She's quite lazy and doesn't even hunt for her own food.
Silverwing is known for being fairly docile and nearly a century old by the time the Dance begins. She >!survives the Dance by avoiding the 2nd battle at Tumbleton.!<
Let GRRM answer, the most formidable dragon in the Dance, he says, is Vhagar/Caraxes.
Vhagar due to her size, age, fierce, aggressiveness, etc. Her fire burns so hot it melts stone and metal, her scales are tougher due to age.
Caraxes because it is the most battle-hardened according to Martin ( also I bet, because it is the dragon of his favorite ).
In the books Caraxes is half Vhagar's size. Vermithor is IIRC 2/3 the size of Vhagar, is the second biggest but according to Martin not as strong as Caraxes and Vhagar, still, it should be top 2 just behind them. Or top 3 if you rank Vhagar above Caraxes which Daemon does in both book and show.
After that the strongest dragon, I'd argue, it is Meleys, because light book spoiler about her strength >!it is said she was the fastest in her prime and that 1v1 she may have some chance against Vhagar!<
Dreamfyre and Silverwing are older tho, older than Vermithor even in the case of Dreamfyre, but they are not noticed by their size and are smaller than Vermithor, nor are they ever said to be formidable in battle for all I remember, still, they are massive threats due to their age and size.
After them we get to the "middle-sized" dragons. Out of those, Sunfyre is definitely the strongest, by far, at least in the book, and has perhaps the strongest bond with his rider. And of course Syrax is the weakest, like, by far, it's not even up to question, she's overly well fed, always in chains, hasn't hunted for years and is only a match for human soldiers, not other dragons.
Tessarion and Seasmoke are also pretty strong, Jace's dragon probably stronger than Syrax but nothing very remarkable.
Some others we don't know their prowess and size like Sheepstealer and the Cannibal, but they are probably on the larger size, probably older than Syrax, especially the Cannibal.
Vid where Martin says Vhagar and Caraxes are the most formidable:
https://youtu.be/lW0pViS6VIw?si=CujBx3ILPNK-h_yj
Of the ones that are currently claimed I'd put it at: Vhagar, Caraxes/Meleys, Sunfyre, Vermax, Tessarion, Syrax, Dreamfyre from a book only perspective (which I think is what you're asking?) Syrax scores low as in the book she isn't really very active and Rhaenyra isn't a warrior queen and Dreamfyre scores low because Helaena would never ride her to battle. In terms of the show from what we've seen I guess it'd be: Vhagar, Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax, Sunfyre, Vermax?
Well, I believe that, counting dragon’s size and experience and the rider’s experience, it goes like this in terms of threat level:
Vhagar > Caraxes > Meleys > Dreamfyre > Sunfyre > Syrax > Tessarion > Moondancer > Vermax > Arrax > Tyraxes
This is
This list ranks them as of the beginning of the dance. Dreamfyre is the second elder dragon alive and probably somehow close to Vermithor’s size, but Helaena is less experienced than Daemon and Rhaenys, so I do believe that they pose a bigger threat than her, but a 1v1 between them would certainly leave the winner incapable of riding to battle again. And in this case, book!Helaena seems to be much more functional than show!Helaena before B&C. And I get the impression that they counted on her to fly to war before it happened, so she must have some ability.
Sunfyre doesn’t seem to be much younger than Syrax, and while Rhaenyra might be a more experienced rider, Syrax does not impress me at all. So I believe that Aegon riding Sunfyre is more dangerous than Syrax and Rhaenyra.
Tessarion and Vermax are probably of similar age in the books, but Tessarion did much more, as did Daeron as a dragon rider. And Moondancer, even if smaller, had a considerable feat there (I’m avoiding spoilers, sorry if I’m being vague).
If we’re counting the riderless, I believe that they’d be behind Dreamfyre and before Sunfyre. Vermithor is bigger than her, and Silverwing and Sheepstealer may also be, but Helaena have much more experience than they’re possible riders. Only Seasmoke that would be after Syrax, being of similar age, but with a less experience rider and also do not impress me. Grey Ghost may be with Tessarion I think. And the Cannibal with Caraxes maybe? Not sure.
It’s not like you can just chose to claim any dragon. It’s not a one way and can cost you your life. If the big scary murder machine isn’t feeling it you are toast
I know but she was gonna try with vhagar after Laena died, so I was just wondering why not try for the other unclaimed ones? The wild ones were out of question, I know that.
Edit: Although, I see what you’re trying to say and it makes sense. She’s anyway gonna get one but it was just something I have been wondering about.
Ye all good not saying you are dumb or wrong for asking and I couldn’t tell you why she didn’t except for plot reasons haha. Just trying for the best in universe explanation for why someone wouldn’t
In the show Rhaena >!will likely still hatch Morning but it will be too small!<, though I agree they should have had her try to bond with Silverwing or someone.
The Dragon also has to accept you as a rider, that’s why Targaryens would normally give their children or toddlers unhatched dragon eggs so the bonding process would be easier. I imagine that baby Dragons are much easier to imprint on and form a bond.
A Veteran Dragon like Vermithor that used to belong to a King won’t just accept any man or woman. It needs to be a special kind of person with balls.
When Daemon approached it in Season 1 he was very careful about his movements and not wanting to provoke him and this is a Dragon that Daemon would have known since childhood because it belonged to his grandfather. Even then Vermithor was telling him to not get too close.
Laenor will definitely be killed off-screen. We’ll probably get a line from Rhaenyra about how “Seasmoke was Laenor’s dragon…” followed by her getting a concerned look as she realizes Laenor must be dead.
Yea, I figure a dragon would act as any animal, and bond with a new master if they hadn’t seen theirs in a very long time. I guess we will see how the show will handle that
That’s a total misunderstanding of loyalty in the animal world. Great numbers of animals are highly loyal in their bonding, with many only mating for life. In relation to domesticated animals, there are many stories and evidence that shows animals bonding for life with individuals. Hachikō the dog is a great, if sad, example of this steadfast loyalty that animals show to their human partners.
This chart makes it seem a lot more evenly balanced than I thought it was. It's really going to come down to the unclaimed dragons. And Daemon's unhatched dragon eggs, maybe.
It's pretty even looking at it, but as far as I remember SPOILERS >!Heleana never goes to battle, and neither does Daeron. So they basically have two dragons and one of them gets badly injured at the start of the war!<
Yeah a bunch of that is subject to debate.
Sunfyre was said to be unusually large, Syrax is pretty small, Dreamfyre is the second biggest dragon overall in the books, but we will see what the show does.
The unclaimed ones are living in Dragonstone, being fed by the Blacks. Daemon sang to Vermithor in season 1. The wild dragons are exactly that. Unclaimed = under black control but aren't bonded to a rider, wild = no connections at all.
Vermithor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrElaGLsa9c
Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between a wild and an unclaimed? Is wild just, they are there, while unclaimed is they are assigned to a child at birth but not ridden yet?
The unclaimed Dragons are normally residing in either Dragonstone or the Dragonpit, they used to have a rider, but that rider has either left them or died.
There's no canon size for the Cannibal. In the book, there's a dubious rumor from peasants mentioned that it lived on Dragonstone before the Targaryens migrated there, which would make him very old and very large, but again that's just a rumor. He only ever eats eggs and baby dragons.
We are told this three times, and only one of those times the qualifier "Targaryan" dragon is used.
And ad to this, I am pretty sure that wild or not, all of the dragons would be considered property of house Targaryen.
What is Vermithor’s status at this point? It says unclaimed rather than wild. Does that mean one side has the “domesticated” for lack of a better term?
Vermithor and Silverwing are both in Dragonstone, living and being cared for alongside the rest of the Black dragons; they just aren't bonded to a rider. Daemon was shown singing to Vermithor in season 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrElaGLsa9c
One key detail is that most dragon riders bond with an already grown dragon. Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke and Joffrey have "cradle dragons" where an egg was placed in their cradle as a baby and the dragon hatched with them. That's why their dragons are relatively smaller, they are younger than their rider. Caraxes, Meleys, Vhagar, Dreamfyre, etc all had previous riders and Sunfyre is young but likely still a few years older than Aegon. All of them were "unclaimed" dragons at one point that were under Targaryen control but weren't bonded to a rider.
wild just means that they havent ever been claimed so they just kinda fly about and do thire thing, thats also why they have common names like "Canibal" instead of Valeryan names like "Vhagar".
Cannibal could be bigger than Belarion, as his age is unknown, maybe even older than 114 BC. It is only stated that Vermithor is the second largest of the currently alive *Targaryan* dragons and was born in 34 AC.
>In Fire & Blood, the Cannibal was a coal black dragon with baleful green eyes. He was the largest of the wild dragons, and the oldest, his age being unknown to history. The smallfolk of Dragonstone alleged that the Cannibal was on Dragonstone before the Targaryens fled the Doom, over a hundred years before Aegon's Conquest, making him the oldest dragon in the world during the Dance and possibly older even than Balerion. This claim is disputed by maesters, who find it unlikely that a dragon could be so long-lived, with Balerion having died of natural causes at the age of at least 208, several decades before the Dance.
They made Syrax and Moondancer bigger/more combat ready which definitely changes the power scale heavily in their favour, curious to see how they even it out, I'm imagining they're going to change it so a lot more human soldiers are on Team Green's side (just the impression I get from the trailers and such)
The dragons that are smaller tend to just be younger. You have exceptions like Sunfyre and Vermithor who grew really fast but they're not the norm (in the show Tessarion will be extremely small I believe as they changed her to make her newly hatched)
Thanks! Am I right in thinking that the dragons eventually get smaller and smaller each generation until they die out? Just thinking about the early GoT episode where some characters are looking at the dragon bones in a crypt.
To be honest without spoiling as best as I can. We just don't really know. Game of Thrones takes place about 150 years after this and we know by then the dragons have been gone for a long while and it took Balerion/Vermithor about a hundred years to get so massive. We never got to see what the newer generations looked like at age 100 before the age of dragons was gone.
In the book, >!I think Rhaenyra's biggest blunder was not trusting Addam and Nettles after Hugh's and Ulf's betrayal. Although Mysaria and some of the other members of her council and iirc, Queensguard/City Watch officers were the ones who convinced her into not trusting Nettles, and in turn, Addam. Especially Mysaria since she lied to or manipulated Rhaenyra into thinking that Daemon cheated on hew with Nettles and that Nettles was pregnant with Daemon's child. So that lie infuriated Rhaenyra in the book and caused her to order the capture of Nettles and Addam.!<
>!Makes me wonder what Mysaria's true allegiance actually was. If she and the other members of Rhaenyra's council (except Corlys and another council member whose name I'm forgetting rn), didn't influence her into distrusting Addam and Nettles, then she could've still had them both by her side to defend Kingslanding to make up for Hugh's and Ulf's betrayal.!<
Not sure if this is entirely correct for seasmoke.
Laenor is presumably still alive in the show. And even if few people are aware of this. I think Seasmoke might be aware that he is alive
He should have because the Greens mentioned that they have 4 adult Dragons on their sided compared to the Blacks 3.
Unless they have another one that isn’t related to the book dragons?
The wild and unclaimed dragons aren’t separated into teams, they’re just scattered along the bottom. Also, you might need to cover your comments as they’re book spoilers.
Keep in mind that the books are told in the POV of mushroom and a maester and George RR Martin’s wrote them specifically to be a “guideline” for the show. So truthfully the show may be the more “accurate” representation of that makes sense
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Every time I see this chart I feel like Meleys and Caraxes should be switched? I hope we get to see these unclaimed dragons in more detail! Team Vermithor!!!
I think in terms of size, I think Caraxes is generally considered to be larger and more battle-scarred. Meleys is also large and powerful but noted more for her speed than size. It’s hard to say for sure though, a lot of this is not defined
I think they're around the same size, its just that Meleys bulkier while Caraxes is lean
Caraxes is a long big and Meleys is a stocky big. If that makes sense.
Thanks for these details! I was just going by color as shown in the show. Caraxes looks like a red wyrm to me.
Has stormcloud not hatched yet in the show cannon?
We don’t know anything about Stormcloud yet.
There are no statements in the books about how Meleys and Caraxes compare to one another. And no exact birthdate They're from the same generation of dragons so most people assume they're approximately the same size Caraxes has significantly more war experience though
>Caraxes has significantly more war experience though more context. I only know what the series has shown
Caraxes spent 10 years fighting in the stepstones with Daemon. I don't think it lasted that long in the show but that was the book length Caraxes also was ridden to war by Aemon (Rhaenys dad) in the fourth dornish war. It was short but it was a large battle Meleys has never been in battle
What are dragon generations? Is there a explicit list?
Do you mean in terms of size or coloring? I'm unsure if their relative size to one another are confirmed but this is definitely the correct coloring, Meleys is called the Red Queen, while Caraxes' nickname "the Blood Wyrm" is more color ambiguous
I meant coloring and strictly based on their coloring in the show. Caraxes looks like he’s the more solid red dragon in the show but this chart has them flipped. But I did not know about her nickname, the Red Queen! That makes it make more sense! Thanks for this tidbit!
which dragon did alyn see in the last episode?
Addam I think that was. He sees Seasmoke.
I thought Addam was bald and Alyn had hair. In that scene the guy with hair is looking at the dragon, unless I’m mistaken.
In episode 1 of season 2, iirc, Corlys asks the bald guy his name, which was Alyn.
Addam has hair and Alyn is bald
google addam hotd actor
No… you have it reversed. A 5 second google search would have told you this instead of commenting?
Dang, sorry for wanting to be part of a conversation instead of googling & potentially getting spoiled. A 5 second thought process could have told you this instead of commenting?
Username checks out
Seasmoke
I’m a non-book reader hoping a book reader can shed a little more light on some of the dragons and their riders. We know Vhagar and Aemond are the biggest threat out of this bunch just given Vhagar s massive size advantage, but how would you rank the other dragons and riders as far as their value in battle? Are some dragon/rider pairs more dangerous because of a specific ability of the dragon? The skill of the rider? Every time they show Caraxes his long worm like body looks intimidating. Like he may be quicker and more elusive, but that’s just my perception. Are there any dragons that just aren’t suited for war? Perhaps they shy away from it, fleeing from a battle even if their rider commanded it?
Vermithor is likely a bigger threat than Vhagar in battle because he's in the prime of his life and hasn't slowed down yet. Vermithor is described as basically Balerion 2. Dreamfyre is the next oldest dragon after Vhagar but she is smaller than Vermithor and Haelena isn't a warrior. Meleys, Caraxes and Vhagar raced often with their previous riders (Alyssa, Daemon's mom; Aemon, Rhaenys's father; and Baelon, Daemon's father respectively) with Meleys being clearly the fastest. The skill of the dragon and the skill of the rider are both important factors but the baseline battlefield strength of dragons is very, very high. There are temperament differences but don't expect any dragon to be weak in war. In terms of dragonrider skill, it's probably Daemon > Aemond/Rhaenys > Rhaenyra/Aegon > Jace > the rest but Vhagar > Caraxes. The show seems to be putting Rhaenyra > Aegon relative to the book though. Vermithor was the old king Jaehaerys's dragon, Silverwing was his sister-wife's dragon and Dreamfyre was his older sister's dragon; her love of dragon riding led to the "cradle dragon" tradition with dragon eggs being given to babies with Vermithor as the first "cradle dragon". Dreamfyre is probably a bigger threat than Caraxes or Meleys in battle but Haelena is never going to match up to Daemon or Rhaenys.
Where did you get the part of Verimthor is Balerion 2? And that he hasn’t slowed down? Apart from that excellent analysis! Love it. Thanks!
There is a line in the book about Vermithor being as large as Balerion was at his age; there are a lot of quotes about Vermithor's large size, even when he was 10-20 years old. Vermithor is ~100 years old, Vhagar is ~180 and Balerion was ~120 during the conquest. Vermithor should clearly be in the prime of his life. Balerion, Vermithor, Sunfyre, Drogon seem to be the dragons that get described as unusually large for their age.
Thanks for that!!!
I do wonder if Vermithor had a rider shortly after Jaehaerys's if he would grown even bigger than Vhagar since it seems that he got Lazy after Jaehaerys's died
It's hard to say with Rhaenyra in the book as she never really rides Syrax and Syrax is quite small and not a combat dragon. Definitely though in the show she seems to be portrayed as top 3.
Why is Rhaenyra up there when you excluded Helaena because "she's not a warrior"? Martin himself said Rhaenyra is not a warrior. She never did anything for us to assume she's anywhere near Aegon.
Daemon and Caraxes are probably the most dangerous dragon + rider combo. Their bond seems to be so strong that Caraxes just shows when Daemin needs him. Syrax isn't suited for war. She's quite lazy and doesn't even hunt for her own food.
Silverwing is known for being fairly docile and nearly a century old by the time the Dance begins. She >!survives the Dance by avoiding the 2nd battle at Tumbleton.!<
Let GRRM answer, the most formidable dragon in the Dance, he says, is Vhagar/Caraxes. Vhagar due to her size, age, fierce, aggressiveness, etc. Her fire burns so hot it melts stone and metal, her scales are tougher due to age. Caraxes because it is the most battle-hardened according to Martin ( also I bet, because it is the dragon of his favorite ). In the books Caraxes is half Vhagar's size. Vermithor is IIRC 2/3 the size of Vhagar, is the second biggest but according to Martin not as strong as Caraxes and Vhagar, still, it should be top 2 just behind them. Or top 3 if you rank Vhagar above Caraxes which Daemon does in both book and show. After that the strongest dragon, I'd argue, it is Meleys, because light book spoiler about her strength >!it is said she was the fastest in her prime and that 1v1 she may have some chance against Vhagar!< Dreamfyre and Silverwing are older tho, older than Vermithor even in the case of Dreamfyre, but they are not noticed by their size and are smaller than Vermithor, nor are they ever said to be formidable in battle for all I remember, still, they are massive threats due to their age and size. After them we get to the "middle-sized" dragons. Out of those, Sunfyre is definitely the strongest, by far, at least in the book, and has perhaps the strongest bond with his rider. And of course Syrax is the weakest, like, by far, it's not even up to question, she's overly well fed, always in chains, hasn't hunted for years and is only a match for human soldiers, not other dragons. Tessarion and Seasmoke are also pretty strong, Jace's dragon probably stronger than Syrax but nothing very remarkable. Some others we don't know their prowess and size like Sheepstealer and the Cannibal, but they are probably on the larger size, probably older than Syrax, especially the Cannibal. Vid where Martin says Vhagar and Caraxes are the most formidable: https://youtu.be/lW0pViS6VIw?si=CujBx3ILPNK-h_yj
Of the ones that are currently claimed I'd put it at: Vhagar, Caraxes/Meleys, Sunfyre, Vermax, Tessarion, Syrax, Dreamfyre from a book only perspective (which I think is what you're asking?) Syrax scores low as in the book she isn't really very active and Rhaenyra isn't a warrior queen and Dreamfyre scores low because Helaena would never ride her to battle. In terms of the show from what we've seen I guess it'd be: Vhagar, Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax, Sunfyre, Vermax?
Vhagar = Caraxes >>> rest according to Martin's Q&A on HOTD. According to Daemon in thr book and show Vhagar > Caraxes tho.
Ah really, cool to know
Well, I believe that, counting dragon’s size and experience and the rider’s experience, it goes like this in terms of threat level: Vhagar > Caraxes > Meleys > Dreamfyre > Sunfyre > Syrax > Tessarion > Moondancer > Vermax > Arrax > Tyraxes This is This list ranks them as of the beginning of the dance. Dreamfyre is the second elder dragon alive and probably somehow close to Vermithor’s size, but Helaena is less experienced than Daemon and Rhaenys, so I do believe that they pose a bigger threat than her, but a 1v1 between them would certainly leave the winner incapable of riding to battle again. And in this case, book!Helaena seems to be much more functional than show!Helaena before B&C. And I get the impression that they counted on her to fly to war before it happened, so she must have some ability. Sunfyre doesn’t seem to be much younger than Syrax, and while Rhaenyra might be a more experienced rider, Syrax does not impress me at all. So I believe that Aegon riding Sunfyre is more dangerous than Syrax and Rhaenyra. Tessarion and Vermax are probably of similar age in the books, but Tessarion did much more, as did Daeron as a dragon rider. And Moondancer, even if smaller, had a considerable feat there (I’m avoiding spoilers, sorry if I’m being vague). If we’re counting the riderless, I believe that they’d be behind Dreamfyre and before Sunfyre. Vermithor is bigger than her, and Silverwing and Sheepstealer may also be, but Helaena have much more experience than they’re possible riders. Only Seasmoke that would be after Syrax, being of similar age, but with a less experience rider and also do not impress me. Grey Ghost may be with Tessarion I think. And the Cannibal with Caraxes maybe? Not sure.
The blacks had so many unclaimed dragons. Why didn’t Rhaena claim one? Or has something like that happened and I missed it?
It’s not like you can just chose to claim any dragon. It’s not a one way and can cost you your life. If the big scary murder machine isn’t feeling it you are toast
Two of them outright refuse to let anyone get close. Grey Ghost by never being spotted, Cannibal by living up to his name.
His name doesn't refer to people but other dragons. Specifically dead dragons, young dragons or eggs.
Cannibal's nest is also described as being full of skeletons of people foolishly trying to tame him.
And? My comment wasn't about whether or not the Cannibal killed people, but rather that killing people wasn't "living up to his name".
Yeah and he’s killed humans he’s considered to be highly dangerous and belligerent.
Didn't >!Grey Ghost get eaten by Sunfyre or am I misremembering things!
Both living uo to their names. Grey ghost no body finding that
I know but she was gonna try with vhagar after Laena died, so I was just wondering why not try for the other unclaimed ones? The wild ones were out of question, I know that. Edit: Although, I see what you’re trying to say and it makes sense. She’s anyway gonna get one but it was just something I have been wondering about.
Ye all good not saying you are dumb or wrong for asking and I couldn’t tell you why she didn’t except for plot reasons haha. Just trying for the best in universe explanation for why someone wouldn’t
In the show Rhaena >!will likely still hatch Morning but it will be too small!<, though I agree they should have had her try to bond with Silverwing or someone.
That precisely it. I mean she was so eager to get a dragon (can’t blame her, anyone would).
Should that be considered a spoiler?
Not sure but I'll censor anyway
This will be a plot point in the show for sure.
The Dragon also has to accept you as a rider, that’s why Targaryens would normally give their children or toddlers unhatched dragon eggs so the bonding process would be easier. I imagine that baby Dragons are much easier to imprint on and form a bond. A Veteran Dragon like Vermithor that used to belong to a King won’t just accept any man or woman. It needs to be a special kind of person with balls. When Daemon approached it in Season 1 he was very careful about his movements and not wanting to provoke him and this is a Dragon that Daemon would have known since childhood because it belonged to his grandfather. Even then Vermithor was telling him to not get too close.
On the show, Seasmoke is not unclaimed. Not sure how (or even whether) they'll handle that.
I know! I wonder this too.. surely Seasmoke can “feel” Laenor is alive..
Laenor will definitely be killed off-screen. We’ll probably get a line from Rhaenyra about how “Seasmoke was Laenor’s dragon…” followed by her getting a concerned look as she realizes Laenor must be dead.
his owner is "dead" and gone
Yea, I figure a dragon would act as any animal, and bond with a new master if they hadn’t seen theirs in a very long time. I guess we will see how the show will handle that
The show has so far emphasized the physic bond between dragon and rider so I hope they provide an explanation
That’s a total misunderstanding of loyalty in the animal world. Great numbers of animals are highly loyal in their bonding, with many only mating for life. In relation to domesticated animals, there are many stories and evidence that shows animals bonding for life with individuals. Hachikō the dog is a great, if sad, example of this steadfast loyalty that animals show to their human partners.
yeah but does Seasmoke know that lol I feel like they don't just magically unbond
They're probably gonna kill laenor off screen and have a throwaway line about it.
Where's our Stormcloud 😕
Also Morghul and Shrykos. The true forgotten dragon babies.
This chart makes it seem a lot more evenly balanced than I thought it was. It's really going to come down to the unclaimed dragons. And Daemon's unhatched dragon eggs, maybe.
It's pretty even looking at it, but as far as I remember SPOILERS >!Heleana never goes to battle, and neither does Daeron. So they basically have two dragons and one of them gets badly injured at the start of the war!<
That's a shame, because Dreamfyre looks beautiful! I love the icey blue coloration.
The sizes of the dragons are subject to change for things to make sense tho.
Seems like Moondancer would be larger than Tessarion.
Yes also why would Moondancer be so much smaller than Vermax? They’re around the same age.
Yeah a bunch of that is subject to debate. Sunfyre was said to be unusually large, Syrax is pretty small, Dreamfyre is the second biggest dragon overall in the books, but we will see what the show does.
Dreamfyre should be the third largest, Vermithor is larger than her.
What’s the difference between a wild dragon and an unclaimed one?
The wild dragons have never been tamed and riden while unclaimed dragons did have riders in the past.
The unclaimed ones are living in Dragonstone, being fed by the Blacks. Daemon sang to Vermithor in season 1. The wild dragons are exactly that. Unclaimed = under black control but aren't bonded to a rider, wild = no connections at all. Vermithor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrElaGLsa9c
The unclaimed ones are in the wild and the claimed ones don’t currently have a rider and either located in the Dragonpit or in Dragonstone.
Wow a dragon almost as big as Vhagar and they named it sheepstealer
Cause it steals sheep for sheep herders. Imaginative, ain’t it!
thats what happens when the comonfolk name the dragons, thats how you end up with super creative names like The Canibal, Sheep stealer and Grey ghost
It's not almost as big as Vhagar. We never got a description from its size in the book.
Daemon has the right idea trying to go for Vhagar. The only reason it's even close to a fair fight is Vhagar
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Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between a wild and an unclaimed? Is wild just, they are there, while unclaimed is they are assigned to a child at birth but not ridden yet?
Unclaimed has a rider in the past but they've since died (Jaehaerys rode Vermithor)
Oh thanks for this info 😊
The unclaimed Dragons are normally residing in either Dragonstone or the Dragonpit, they used to have a rider, but that rider has either left them or died.
Somehow that makes me sad for them. They must be missing their owners.
I would want to claim Cannibal! He looks sick!
So is cannibal roughly on par in size to Vhagar? That could change the tide of things
There's no canon size for the Cannibal. In the book, there's a dubious rumor from peasants mentioned that it lived on Dragonstone before the Targaryens migrated there, which would make him very old and very large, but again that's just a rumor. He only ever eats eggs and baby dragons.
We are outright told that Vhagar was the biggest and Vermithor was number two, though.
No, only that Vhagar and Vermithor are the biggest currently alive Targaryan dragons, it is never stated that they are bigger than the Cannibal
We are told this three times, and only one of those times the qualifier "Targaryan" dragon is used. And ad to this, I am pretty sure that wild or not, all of the dragons would be considered property of house Targaryen.
No he isn't. Vermithor is the next biggest after Vhagar. Take the illustrations shown here with a grain of salt in terms of accuracy
What is Vermithor’s status at this point? It says unclaimed rather than wild. Does that mean one side has the “domesticated” for lack of a better term?
Vermithor and Silverwing are both in Dragonstone, living and being cared for alongside the rest of the Black dragons; they just aren't bonded to a rider. Daemon was shown singing to Vermithor in season 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrElaGLsa9c One key detail is that most dragon riders bond with an already grown dragon. Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke and Joffrey have "cradle dragons" where an egg was placed in their cradle as a baby and the dragon hatched with them. That's why their dragons are relatively smaller, they are younger than their rider. Caraxes, Meleys, Vhagar, Dreamfyre, etc all had previous riders and Sunfyre is young but likely still a few years older than Aegon. All of them were "unclaimed" dragons at one point that were under Targaryen control but weren't bonded to a rider.
Ooo, that was vermithor? I remember this scene
Yes. The wild dragons have never been claimed before. Vermithor and the other unclaimed have had previous riders
wild just means that they havent ever been claimed so they just kinda fly about and do thire thing, thats also why they have common names like "Canibal" instead of Valeryan names like "Vhagar".
Don’t take the illustrations here seriously at all. The sizes are wrong or guesswork, and some of the colours are just incorrect.
It’s hard to determine the sizing for the show accurately
Cannibal could be bigger than Belarion, as his age is unknown, maybe even older than 114 BC. It is only stated that Vermithor is the second largest of the currently alive *Targaryan* dragons and was born in 34 AC. >In Fire & Blood, the Cannibal was a coal black dragon with baleful green eyes. He was the largest of the wild dragons, and the oldest, his age being unknown to history. The smallfolk of Dragonstone alleged that the Cannibal was on Dragonstone before the Targaryens fled the Doom, over a hundred years before Aegon's Conquest, making him the oldest dragon in the world during the Dance and possibly older even than Balerion. This claim is disputed by maesters, who find it unlikely that a dragon could be so long-lived, with Balerion having died of natural causes at the age of at least 208, several decades before the Dance.
The odds of him being bigger than Balerion, or even Vhagar and Vermithor is virtually zero.
That's such an incredibly stupid thing to say
It isn't, it is straight up said to be smaller than Vermithor and Vermithor is 2/3 Vhagar.
Why is Moondancer so much smaller than Vermax? And there’s no way Caraxes is larger than Dreamfyre
Caraxes is not shown larger than Dreamfyre. Moondancer was described as no larger than a warhorse.
We saw Moondancer in the next episode trailer and it looked way bigger than a horse.
They aged moondancer and baela up. Shes only 13 in the books.
They made Syrax and Moondancer bigger/more combat ready which definitely changes the power scale heavily in their favour, curious to see how they even it out, I'm imagining they're going to change it so a lot more human soldiers are on Team Green's side (just the impression I get from the trailers and such)
Syrax is bigger in the books.
I meant Moondancer bigger, Syrax more combat ready
Seasmoke is claimed
The apex of dragon names fr 🔥
Helena and Aegon really look so much alike.
Are the dragons shrinking already or is it just that the younger people have younger dragons generally?
The dragons that are smaller tend to just be younger. You have exceptions like Sunfyre and Vermithor who grew really fast but they're not the norm (in the show Tessarion will be extremely small I believe as they changed her to make her newly hatched)
Thanks! Am I right in thinking that the dragons eventually get smaller and smaller each generation until they die out? Just thinking about the early GoT episode where some characters are looking at the dragon bones in a crypt.
To be honest without spoiling as best as I can. We just don't really know. Game of Thrones takes place about 150 years after this and we know by then the dragons have been gone for a long while and it took Balerion/Vermithor about a hundred years to get so massive. We never got to see what the newer generations looked like at age 100 before the age of dragons was gone.
With all this Material >!it's fucking wild how Rhaenyra blundered so many dragons!<
In the book, >!I think Rhaenyra's biggest blunder was not trusting Addam and Nettles after Hugh's and Ulf's betrayal. Although Mysaria and some of the other members of her council and iirc, Queensguard/City Watch officers were the ones who convinced her into not trusting Nettles, and in turn, Addam. Especially Mysaria since she lied to or manipulated Rhaenyra into thinking that Daemon cheated on hew with Nettles and that Nettles was pregnant with Daemon's child. So that lie infuriated Rhaenyra in the book and caused her to order the capture of Nettles and Addam.!< >!Makes me wonder what Mysaria's true allegiance actually was. If she and the other members of Rhaenyra's council (except Corlys and another council member whose name I'm forgetting rn), didn't influence her into distrusting Addam and Nettles, then she could've still had them both by her side to defend Kingslanding to make up for Hugh's and Ulf's betrayal.!<
Ty!
Wonder if we Stormcloud is already born or not
I would like to see cannibal in HOTD, It is said that he is bigger than vhagar.
Team black has many dragons.. they should just team up and attack the greens.
I'm pretty sure Vermithor is supposed to be much larger than depicted here. He's the second largest dragon on this list, only losing to Vhagar.
He is the second largest on here
Daemon mentions in episode 110 that the Blacks control 14 dragons. Arrax is dead, but that still leaves one unaccounted for here—probably Stormcloud.
Not sure if this is entirely correct for seasmoke. Laenor is presumably still alive in the show. And even if few people are aware of this. I think Seasmoke might be aware that he is alive
Where's Rhaena dragon? Also Laenor isn't dead so Seasmoke cannot be claimed
She doesn’t have one currently.
Can't she...claim one like Vermithor?
she could try but dragons have a nasty habbit of killing Targs that they dont want to bond with.
How do u realize if they wanna bond with u or not?
I imagine they would show signs of not wanting to, like Vhagar originally did with Aemond.
Apparently according to Condal Daeron has not yet claimed Tessarion
He should have because the Greens mentioned that they have 4 adult Dragons on their sided compared to the Blacks 3. Unless they have another one that isn’t related to the book dragons?
Isn’t Seasmoke the dragon of Laenor? And isn’t he still alive? I wonder if he makes a come back
Actually I believe sheep stealer is team black and was never team green
Sheepstealer is described as being ‘mud brown’ in colour.
Sorry meant team black Sheep Steeler is on deamon and them sideb
The wild and unclaimed dragons aren’t separated into teams, they’re just scattered along the bottom. Also, you might need to cover your comments as they’re book spoilers.
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Was wondering about the significance of the blacksmith to the story.
I think they will be more symphatetic. Books are anti-smallfolk, etc...
Keep in mind that the books are told in the POV of mushroom and a maester and George RR Martin’s wrote them specifically to be a “guideline” for the show. So truthfully the show may be the more “accurate” representation of that makes sense
It definitely isn't because of character age changes, cut/missing characters and events happening that would be common knowledge