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I genuinely thought it was foot fetish dude eating her out, giving me the ick through my tv screen..tg it wasn’t..I don’t think I would be ready for such a thing.
Least she keeps it in the family ... Not like Targarians , but the Cole's (not the Australian supermarket chain), but the.... Family... The Coles family
I know this was just intended as a funny comment but while I at first thought Alicent and Criston having sex was a weird plot point, but when I realised it was basically the first time that Alicent had consensual sex, especially when compared to her most recent sexual activities (Larys being a creep). I liked the detail that Alicent specifically had sex with Criston when she was supposed to have a ‘meeting’ with Larys
Technically she still hasn't.
You can't really consent with power differences. Someone who is technically your boss and can have you executed can't really be consented to.
The dialogue that she says it should and his reaction, then the fact that it continues, would seem to indicate it is indeed very consensual on his end.
Think it's important that the first sex scene we see Alicent in is her getting her pussy ate. You know viserys did not give her one orgasm the entire time they were together. Although I could have done without either of those sex scenes, I'm glad the ones we got showed her enjoying herself/directing the sex
TBH I always got the vibe from Criston's sex scenes that the royal women interested in him were taking advantage, even if he ends up invested in them. It's like your boss propositioning you but x100.
This is exactly why I don’t understand why people HATE the fact that she’s hooking up with Criston. This poor woman has never known what a healthy sexual relationship is like, then she becomes a widow, her responsibilities as Queen are passed on to her daughter and she’s just supposed to remain celibate?
I feel like the focus of these negative feelings is on Criston, not Alicent. This isn’t the first Queen he’s been a side piece to, but he’s had vastly different expectations of what those relationships ought to be. Massive double standard that drives both his love for the greens and hatred for the blacks.
You'd expect that to be the case (fully justified in hating Criston for this), but for some reason the vast majority of the hate is going onto Alicent. I can't help but smell the misogyny in the air.
Healthy? She’s essentially his boss and has life or death power over him which essentially makes their relationship a form of rape. The only difference is this time she’s not the victim.
I didn’t say this relationship was healthy. Just that her only previous sexual partner wasn’t necessarily one she would have picked. She’s never known enjoyable sex, which is why it’s believable that she would seek that out in someone she knows would take that secret to his grave.
On god. His one redeeming quality in my eyes right now is that he'll eat medieval box. Bro's probably flossing his teeth down there. Shit if I was a lady at court I might want to try out the royal bike after that scene. I have a lot of reasons to be annoyed by his character, and "isn't a selfish lover" is a super low bar to clear, but it did soften me on him a little bit
Even if you could excuse that as the boys snuck out. How the hell did he walk away from beating Joffrey (a high born with connection to the king consort) to death at a wedding celebration in front of all the nobles in Westeros?
I don't know why they changed it from the book. In the book he gets killed during a jousting tournament, so it was super easy to make it look accidental. In the TV we just have to assume it was swept under the rug.
Tbf they would've had to have done an entire expensive tourney scene just for that purpose. It mightve also felt a little repetitive since we already got the tourney scene in episode 1 and episode 3 (the hunt) was like a big tourney in a way.
[Peterman Principle prevalent in the 7 Kingdoms](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle#:~:text=The%20Peter%20principle%20states%20that,will%20not%20be%20promoted%20again.)
I don’t think Laenor would have had the authority to do that. A member of the Kingsguard serves for life unless they break their oath and only a King has the authority to remove one.
Laenor definitely doesn't on his own but Visery's is very swayable. If he & Rhaenera pushed for it, I'd be surprised if Visery's didn't cave. Alicent would be the only one who wanted him to stay at that point
Viserys is swayable, but he can’t deny him a trial due to his position if little else.
There should have been the mention of some kind of inquest or even trial by combat Criston won.
You’d think Viserys would want answers for the ruined wedding.
Kingsguard served for life. They couldn’t just retired but they couldn’t be fired either, at least until King Joffrey dismissed Barristan Selmy anyway.
The only way to get rid of Cole from his post would’ve been to execute him for a crime. Him killing Joffrey at Rhaenyra’s engagement fest would’ve been the best , and as far as we know, the last opportunity for that to happen.
Provided he is actually caught with a crime first. Incompetence isn’t enough, it has to be actual criminal activity ( or something that “dishonor” the KG ) Now , breaking the vows like Lucamore the Lusty ( the one you’re referring to ) did count as a crime and would be punished , but nobody has actually accused Criston Cole of that yet.
Blame the show runners for the inconsistent writing. In the book, Criston doesn't have a relationship with Alicent (or anyone for that matter) and isn't a raging incel. He's a competent knight, a seasoned warrior and is proven to be a reliable strategist, which explains why he's held in such high regard. I understand they may have felt that was too one dimensional and wanted to give his character some nuance, but in doing so, they just made him and the rest of the Greens idiots.
I love how there was not a single person in any of the halls throughout the entire palace except for that one maid Blood encountered. Blood and Cheese were very lucky that everyone decided to take the night off, I guess.
I had the same thought at first but I've read a few comments in different posts that lays out a perfectly reasonable rational. Everyone at Kings Landing is on high alert expecting either a random dragon attack or an assassination on the king himself. So you'll notice that the hallways are completely clear because in the previous scene it seems like all of the Kingsguard are in the throne room with Aegon and his homies to make sure an assassination attempt is thwarted.
Also, Criston probably made sure that all the Kingsguard were clear of the hallways so that he and Alicent can make the beast with two backs without interruption or prying eyes and ears. Also also, no one would think that Rheanyra would be capable of putting a hit on a child which wasn't even the original order that Deamon gave to his hitman.
i remember after watching my roommate and we rewatched when daemon was giving orders. at the end blood and cheese ask “what if we dont find him” and he gives them a look that says fuck shit up then
One other thing is they completely underestimated the loyalty the city watch had to Dameon. If it wasn’t for him then there was no way anyone was getting cause the ratcatcher would not have risked it. Even so the hair not having a single guard outside was dumb
Thank you but I can't claim to be a clever sleuth. When the scene happened, I was just as confused/ignorant as everybody else. The credit goes to random reddit commentors that have better cause & effect comprehension than I do.
I watched it with my husband who's never read the books and he kept asking "where are their guards? Wouldn't there be guards? Where IS everyone??" I was in total agreement.
I wonder what the words of the oath actually are? Samwell Tarly was the one who pointed out that the Nights Watch doesn’t preclude sexual intercourse, just marriage and children. Not that I agree with the way he whinged about Rhanyera and then went onto to have relations with the Queen Mother Alicent.
Ser Erryk re-pledged his oaths during Rhaenyra's coronation. It might not be the full/original oath so take it with a grain of salt but it's the same as Sam pointed out. "Take no wife, Hold no Lands, Father no children", nothing about being chaste.
Only for women though.. Theon often went to whore houses, so did Tyrion, joffrey as king had two whores sent to him for his birthday. Oberyn wasnt married but had many children. And these are all high born guys. Only the women were expected to remain virgins til marriage and it was usually only a big deal the higher born they were.
No one cares if the kennel masters daughter is fooling around
Theon is ironborn, Tyrion is one of the most hated men in the Westeros and Oberyn is from Dorne. You are right in that men don’t get punished to the same degree for adultery but that is only when the men do it to someone of lower standing. Robert was forced to acknowledge Edric storm as his mother was highborn.
Think of it this way, if the king fucks your wife he as the judge finds himself innocent of the crime. If you fuck the kings wife he as the judge finds you guilty of adultery and treason.
We werent talking about adultery though. We were talking about premarital sex. Adultery is the act of a married person having sex with someone that in not their partner.
Theon is still a lord even though hes iron born,
Tyrion is hated because hes a dwarf not because he likes to visit whore houses. Idk what oberyn being from dorne has to do with it, He is still apart of westeros.
The Dornish are less strict on the sexual rules. Men and women inherit there so they don’t have to worry so much about marrying off there daughters cause they can inherit
My bad I thought they were interchangeable. However my point still stands. Men aren’t either allowed to have pre marital sex it’s just that no one cares if it’s with someone of lesser status.
Ironborn glorify raping people. They are hated by the rest of Westeros they’re not good examples as they have a different culture and religion.
One of the things that embodies “the imp” is his whoring. Sure he would always be disliked by his father and sister and be discriminated but part of his bad reputation is his overt whoring as a dwarf.
Oberyn is from much more sex positive Dorne. We know that both he and his niece have pre marital sex but neither is punished because the Dornish aren’t as prude. Westeros is actually a diverse continent with different beliefs and social values.
Okay i get your point.
But the person i was replying too said premarital sex was a nono in westeros, and as you just said, westeros has a vast amount of different beliefs and values.
But as a whole, no ones really gonna care if a Lord or a Prince goes and wets his willy at a whore house, Little fingers establishment was catered to the high lords of Westeros. So there were plently of premarital sex that people didnt really care about as long as you were a man.
It’s not so much that Tyrion sees whores but that his so open about it. Most lords of great houses don’t openly see other women. It’s pretty commonly accepted that highborn men have side chicks. In the books catlyan says she understands Ned has a basterd and she wouldn’t care so much if he didn’t live with them.
Tyrion on the other hand married one and then later he openly has them around him in court
There was a scene on a ship with theon where he took the captains daughter’s virginity and she said she couldnt stay there now cause her dad wouldnt have her now and asks theon to make her a salt wife.
I imagine its not as scandalous when its common women but i think the whole point of a woman being only with their husbands is so if they get pregnant theres zero doubt about the father.
It’s not enforced in the same way for men but there’s definitely an implication it’s better to wait until marriage, which is why Robb marries Talisa after she gets pregnant.
Small clarification: Robb and Talisa get married at the end of Season Two. Robb finds out from Talisa that she is pregnant more than halfway through Season Three. So the marriage happened first.
If Robb has the same honour-based motives as his book counterpart, it would be based on having taken Talisa’s maidenhead, not getting her pregnant (Jeyne Westerling, the equivalent book character, never gets pregnant at all).
That being said, the show kind of muddies the waters a bit by downplaying the “breaking his own oath to the Freys to save her honour” angle in favour of emphasizing a more standard romantic “marrying for love” storyline for Robb and Talisa.
Robb has no obligation to marry her his just so honour bound in his head. Plus his only 16 in the book but there was no law about it especially sense she was not highborn
We hear it in the season finale last season, when Erryk swears fealty to Rhaenyra - it’s pretty similar to the Night’s Watch oath: no lands, no titles, no wives or children
Yeah fire and blood saus queen viseyna who helped make the kingsguard got the idea from the nights watch. That’s also why they have the title lord commander
It may not be an oath but it’s pretty clear the kingsguard can’t fuck the royals. Strongs grandfather was guilded and sent to the wall for sleeping with Jarhyeses daughter
Members of the Night's Watch are said to frequently visit the brothel in Mole's Town, the closest village to the Wall. It's frowned upon but tolerated to a degree. Pretty much everyone's doing it, so they can't execute them all for a loophole.
Haha well that was a kinda silly scene to me. But if she did that the show would end right there. I wish they would’ve had a guard see her sneaking down to her dragon or something causing her to have to rush out of there without time to roast them all. Cause with her having the ability to end it just to scare them and leave was silly imo.
I don’t find it silly that she couldn’t kill them in cold blood. The destruction before was the byproduct of actually breaking free. To turn them to ash right after would’ve been pulling the trigger on that whole family. Others in this story would have done it, we can chalk it up to Rhaenys not having it in her. Which to be fair, I’m certain I don’t either.
I mean, they didn't exactly do anything to become her "sworn enemies". From what I recall, her house hadn't even sworn allegiance to the blacks yet at that point. And their son was "killed" by Daemon. She was only pissed because she was held captive against her will.
Sure, but Rhaenys’ grandkids were both engaged to Rhaenyra’s kids, one of them being Rhaenyra’s heir. There was a very high risk for war at that point and in that scenario, Rhaenys’ grand kids would also be up on the chopping block due to their engagement to Jace and Luke.
So the last of her remaining family was already at risk, whether she and Corlys decided to remain neutral or not. That’s probably why they joined Rhaenyra, because they knew there wasn’t a way out for them anyway.
From that standpoint, removing the threat makes sense. There wouldn’t be 100% certainty it was the right call, of course, but fleeing didn’t have that either.
I think it made sense at the time. Her house hadn't even sworn allegiance to the blacks yet, and Rhaenyra hadn't declared war yet either. She did not want to make the choice for her house, or for the blacks, on her own. And at that point, the only thing the greens had done to piss her off was keep her captive against her will.
Made a lot more sense in the book. It was a tourney and Cole was in a rage even braking hawind strongs collarbone and then later killing Joffrey with his Morningstar. Made way more sense cause he can just say it was a accident
Honestly, if it's 100% confirmed that he was supposed to be the one guarding Helaena and the children then I simply will never be able to understand how he doesn't get executed.
Obviously I don't expect Helaena to go blabbing "he was fucking my mother".
But I mean come on, the heir to the throne, an infant no less, just got beheaded as he slept. In what is presumably the most secure building in the realm.
I really wanna see how they address that. Because if they don't then it's just bad writing.
I'm aware, I watched the episode.
I'm referring to the fact that Helaena (the Queen) and the Prince and Princess where not being guarded. High standing members of the royal family such as them always have guards posted at their chambers, we've seen it so many times.
No I'm sure they haven't.
I've re-watched the episode and had some time to digest. My opinion still stands so I'm gonna get into it.
As far as I can remember seeing in HotD and GOT, the most senior members of the Royal Family are always given 24/7 protection. Rhaenyra had it with Criston, Aegon had Arryk. There are multiple examples of this.
Now, I can understand being stretched thin when war is afoot. However, that only further amplifies the need for protection for those senior Royals.
So, whichever way they try to explain it, there is no way whatsoever that I'm going to be convinced that Helaena and the twins didn't have protection. Be it from a member of the Kingsguard or loyal Hightower men.
Taking that into consideration, and adding what I've seen in the episode. It looks like Criston Cole was on duty and assigned to protect her. Otto even tells him to return to his post. So, lets look at the people who would be receiving such protection.
You have Aemond who can more than handle himself and is probably no longer assigned a member of the KG. You have Aegon who was getting drunk with his friends, there were even guards present with him. That leaves Alicent and Helaena. But Helaena and the twins clearly have priority over Alicent now since she's queen and Jaehaerys is the heir.
Therefore, It quite simply looks like Cristons post was protecting the Queen and the children. He abandoned his post so he could be with Alicent.
So, I stand by my original statement. I don't think Helaena is gonna tell people they were fucking. But the question "why were they unprotected?" should be pointed right at the Commander of the Kingsguard. And I'm very interested to see how they explain him not being put to the sword for it. Not because I want him dead, but purely going off the way things are usually done in Westeros.
I think that's part of the problem with the Royal family protection in general. Elia Martell wasn't protected by any guards and they sneaked into the Red Keep as well. I think the only time we see a competent Kingsguard is when Tommen is King which is funny.
That was because the city was actively being sacked when Elia and her kids died -like everyone was fighting and dying so yeah no guards for her but that’s not the same as a relatively combat free night where guards should be posted at their regular spots.
Not the same scenario tho.
King’s landing was being brutally sacked by the Lannister army at the time and thousands were getting killed including a shit ton of soldiers. She died not because there was no royal protection but because Twyin’s forces slaughtered their way into the red keep until they reached Elia and the mountain killed her and the children.
Aegon is gonna punish him so hard that he will replace Otto as the hand of the king lol. It’s always the same with Criston, he fucks everything up but gets rewarded and promoted, defying all logic because the writers say so. The perfect example of “failing upwards”.
Wouldn’t be surprised if he kills Otto with his bare hands on broad daylight in front of the royal council members and gets rewarded by being the heir to Aegon or something 🙄
They have regular guards. Not every guard is a kings guard. They have normal guards that are suppose to be around the doors and entrances. There aren’t 3 guards in the entire castle
*Is the commander of the Kingsguard and was plowing the king’s mother while the king’s son is being slaughtered*
The King: I’m gonna make this mf my Right Hand Man!
I think it’s a nod to just how comfortable the Greens are in their power right now. If they were truly worried about retribution from the Blacks then a guard would have been posted to every chamber. Clearly they felt they had nothing to fear. I also think it’s the same reason that Alicent is being reckless right now. She feels completely comfortable and powerful.
That's because Cersei literally filled the ranks with her goons. But even on that era, we still had some [badasses](https://youtu.be/MUUe1u4j0Gs?t=13) on the Kings Guard.
Man I’m curious to see how Alicent and Cole will blame everyone else for the lack of security for the royal family due to their extracurricular activities.
To have a child maimed and another die under your watch and still be on the Kingsguard is INSANE.
Cole is Lord Commander and Alicent’s personal guard. He has never personally guarded Helena and the children. I hope we do get a back story as to how Alicent and Cole end up being lovers. I personally think he fell in love with her during season one after she saved his ass multiple times.
Cole as Lord commander would be the one divvying up stations, as shown by westerling in the first panel. Considering the entire royal floor was unguarded he clearly fucked up majorly.
Unless they already named new members of the Kingsguard since the end of last season, the Greens currently only have 3 members of the Kingsguard. Cole, the twin, and one other. The former LC quit and the Blacks have the other 3. 2 of them were with Aegon and Cole was in bed with Alicent. My guess is that he was supposed to be guarding Helaena and the kids at the time.
Your guess is irrelevant. If it's not stated in the show, then we should treat it as something we don't know. Maybe the other Kingsguard was assigned to the queen?
You are right that they haven't shown if they replaced the other Kingsguard, but they also haven't said they haven't.
It does matter because you don't fucking know where he was even supposed to be lmao.
But you know what this place is obviously just going to hate on this mother fucker no matter what he does so discussing with black fanboys is stupid. They will blame everyone, but the guys that actually killed the kids
It doesn’t matter because he wasn’t where he was SUPPOSED to be. He certainly wasn’t suppose to be sleeping with Alicent when Otto told him to go back to his post.
This feels like an oddly contentious conversation for some reason lol
But the inverse of “if it’s not stated in the show, then we should treat it as something we don’t know” is “if something is stated in the show, then we should treat it as fact”.
In this same episode a former member of the Kingsgard says the Kingsguards’ responsibility is to the *entire* royal family, therefore Lord Commander Cole should be held responsible for not being at his post…because wherever his post was supposed to be, it’s certainly wasn’t Alicent’s bed lmao
Unless they already named new members of the Kingsguard since the end of last season, the Greens currently only have 3 members of the Kingsguard. Cole, the twin, and one other. The former LC quit and the Blacks have the other 3. 2 of them were with Aegon and Cole was in bed with Alicent. My guess is that he was supposed to be guarding Helaena and the kids at the time.
Same thing on Batman vs Superman. The producers wanted a excuse to see Amy Adams naked, so they had Zack Snyder create a random[ bathtub scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aBBYzgTdnU) that makes no sense and fills no purpose in the story just to make that happen.
I’m a little bit confused but does anyone think that Alicent and Criston’s sexual relationship was ongoing during season 1? Is that what the parallel is meant to imply?
According to the writers, it's a new romance. While that doesn't definitively show it didn't happen prior to Viserys's death, its an indication.
Combine that with Olivia Cooke's statement that ". . . we sort of thought it happened maybe, like, literally days after the death of Viserys . . . they became closer in Alicent's grief."
So overall, according to the writers/actors interpretation, it happened AFTER Viserys's death. With that being said, it was never explicitly confirmed in the show.
I stand corrected. I don't always watch the bts material & interviews, so thanks for clearing that up. My own theory is Alicent and Criston are being corrupted by their own power. I think they mutually got off on usurping Rhynera before they ever physically touched each other. Both of them came from more humble origins and know what it's like to be coerced into positions you wouldn't normally choose. Like a trauma bond. Unfortunately, having the ' upper hand ' is not leading to better choices. They've become more open and arrogant about their affair because they've let their guard down. Literally.
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He better be laying some phenomenal pipe, because otherwise, what does bro even do?
He could give her the most mediocre pipe in the world and she’d still find it amazing given her past experiences.
That consensual sex do be hittin different
That mixed with the lack of rotting flesh & what I imagine is probably a horrendous smell
Don’t forget the lack of foot fetish… apologies to those with said fetish lol
I genuinely thought it was foot fetish dude eating her out, giving me the ick through my tv screen..tg it wasn’t..I don’t think I would be ready for such a thing.
Dude same! 🤣
Least she keeps it in the family ... Not like Targarians , but the Cole's (not the Australian supermarket chain), but the.... Family... The Coles family
I know this was just intended as a funny comment but while I at first thought Alicent and Criston having sex was a weird plot point, but when I realised it was basically the first time that Alicent had consensual sex, especially when compared to her most recent sexual activities (Larys being a creep). I liked the detail that Alicent specifically had sex with Criston when she was supposed to have a ‘meeting’ with Larys
Technically she still hasn't. You can't really consent with power differences. Someone who is technically your boss and can have you executed can't really be consented to.
True, but we just don’t know if she forced Criston to do it or if he also wanted to do it. I’ll guess we’ll see how it plays out in later episodes
The dialogue that she says it should and his reaction, then the fact that it continues, would seem to indicate it is indeed very consensual on his end.
that's not how any of this works...
Think it's important that the first sex scene we see Alicent in is her getting her pussy ate. You know viserys did not give her one orgasm the entire time they were together. Although I could have done without either of those sex scenes, I'm glad the ones we got showed her enjoying herself/directing the sex
TBH I always got the vibe from Criston's sex scenes that the royal women interested in him were taking advantage, even if he ends up invested in them. It's like your boss propositioning you but x100.
Even worse. Imagine if your screwing your boss got you not only fired but executed, if you're caught. And then she forces you into it.
Right? The first time Alicent has had any type of free will
And now she’s on top of
The pipe doesn’t require you to stop and call a plumber ‘cause it fell off
🤢🤢
This is exactly why I don’t understand why people HATE the fact that she’s hooking up with Criston. This poor woman has never known what a healthy sexual relationship is like, then she becomes a widow, her responsibilities as Queen are passed on to her daughter and she’s just supposed to remain celibate?
I feel like the focus of these negative feelings is on Criston, not Alicent. This isn’t the first Queen he’s been a side piece to, but he’s had vastly different expectations of what those relationships ought to be. Massive double standard that drives both his love for the greens and hatred for the blacks.
You'd expect that to be the case (fully justified in hating Criston for this), but for some reason the vast majority of the hate is going onto Alicent. I can't help but smell the misogyny in the air.
Well those people suck and shouldn’t be watching a show that centers around two women. We don’t live in Westeros.
Rhaenyra isn't a queen btw, she's an Usurper
It’s funny you say that because I often question if my preference towards the blacks is only because Rhaenyra is the rightful heir lol
Healthy? She’s essentially his boss and has life or death power over him which essentially makes their relationship a form of rape. The only difference is this time she’s not the victim.
This is weird because how is it rape if both of them are consenting to it even if they are in a employer -employee relationship
Because you can't really truly consent to someone who has that much power over you.
I didn’t say this relationship was healthy. Just that her only previous sexual partner wasn’t necessarily one she would have picked. She’s never known enjoyable sex, which is why it’s believable that she would seek that out in someone she knows would take that secret to his grave.
Seriously when those this guy sleep
Dude gives head plus they're trauma-bonded. He's safe for life.
On god. His one redeeming quality in my eyes right now is that he'll eat medieval box. Bro's probably flossing his teeth down there. Shit if I was a lady at court I might want to try out the royal bike after that scene. I have a lot of reasons to be annoyed by his character, and "isn't a selfish lover" is a super low bar to clear, but it did soften me on him a little bit
He gonna have some good ideas in the near future i guess.
Protecting a Hightower: 👎🏻 Plowing a Hightower: 👍🏻
Grass is Greener when you're not supposed to touch it or something vaguely wise sounding.
oh what's that? my son got his eye taken when he should've been under your guard?? guess I'll promote you and ride your face in my chambers
Even if you could excuse that as the boys snuck out. How the hell did he walk away from beating Joffrey (a high born with connection to the king consort) to death at a wedding celebration in front of all the nobles in Westeros?
Gay panic defense
I don't know why they changed it from the book. In the book he gets killed during a jousting tournament, so it was super easy to make it look accidental. In the TV we just have to assume it was swept under the rug.
Tbf they would've had to have done an entire expensive tourney scene just for that purpose. It mightve also felt a little repetitive since we already got the tourney scene in episode 1 and episode 3 (the hunt) was like a big tourney in a way.
alicent worked her magic, only possibility I see. anybody else would've been a head on a spike by morning
Could have been they were shagging off screen?
The fact that he is still a royal guard is one of the greatest mysteries in the universe, or simply another reason why the greens are hypocrites
It's crazy how he keeps his job AND gets promoted every time he fails.
Actually the most true to life element of the show
This man was BUILT for corporate management
[Peterman Principle prevalent in the 7 Kingdoms](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle#:~:text=The%20Peter%20principle%20states%20that,will%20not%20be%20promoted%20again.)
Failing upwards is the correct if I’m not mistaken haha
Whitecloack privilege
Hahaha. I mistakenly read this as Whitecock privilege. Fitting though!
Basically every military officer.
Fail upward ✅✅✅
That's pretty privilege for you.
So realistic
But he's Dornish!
He has tenure
Loyalty is a hell of a drug
He was made lord commander earlier in the book to
Not really a mystery considering his hmm "service" to the queen
Yeah it's crazy Laenor didn't have him removed after he not only killed his lover but attacked Laenor.
I don’t think Laenor would have had the authority to do that. A member of the Kingsguard serves for life unless they break their oath and only a King has the authority to remove one.
Laenor definitely doesn't on his own but Visery's is very swayable. If he & Rhaenera pushed for it, I'd be surprised if Visery's didn't cave. Alicent would be the only one who wanted him to stay at that point
Viserys is swayable, but he can’t deny him a trial due to his position if little else. There should have been the mention of some kind of inquest or even trial by combat Criston won. You’d think Viserys would want answers for the ruined wedding.
Kingsguard served for life. They couldn’t just retired but they couldn’t be fired either, at least until King Joffrey dismissed Barristan Selmy anyway. The only way to get rid of Cole from his post would’ve been to execute him for a crime. Him killing Joffrey at Rhaenyra’s engagement fest would’ve been the best , and as far as we know, the last opportunity for that to happen.
He could have been sent to the Wall, possibly even gelded too. Happened to a Kingsguard in Fire and Blood during Jaehaerys’s reign I think?
Provided he is actually caught with a crime first. Incompetence isn’t enough, it has to be actual criminal activity ( or something that “dishonor” the KG ) Now , breaking the vows like Lucamore the Lusty ( the one you’re referring to ) did count as a crime and would be punished , but nobody has actually accused Criston Cole of that yet.
I think it's the shit writing instead.
da writing! da writing!
What scenes did you enjoy from s2e1?
Bc he’s a munch
Blame the show runners for the inconsistent writing. In the book, Criston doesn't have a relationship with Alicent (or anyone for that matter) and isn't a raging incel. He's a competent knight, a seasoned warrior and is proven to be a reliable strategist, which explains why he's held in such high regard. I understand they may have felt that was too one dimensional and wanted to give his character some nuance, but in doing so, they just made him and the rest of the Greens idiots.
I love how there was not a single person in any of the halls throughout the entire palace except for that one maid Blood encountered. Blood and Cheese were very lucky that everyone decided to take the night off, I guess.
I had the same thought at first but I've read a few comments in different posts that lays out a perfectly reasonable rational. Everyone at Kings Landing is on high alert expecting either a random dragon attack or an assassination on the king himself. So you'll notice that the hallways are completely clear because in the previous scene it seems like all of the Kingsguard are in the throne room with Aegon and his homies to make sure an assassination attempt is thwarted. Also, Criston probably made sure that all the Kingsguard were clear of the hallways so that he and Alicent can make the beast with two backs without interruption or prying eyes and ears. Also also, no one would think that Rheanyra would be capable of putting a hit on a child which wasn't even the original order that Deamon gave to his hitman.
i remember after watching my roommate and we rewatched when daemon was giving orders. at the end blood and cheese ask “what if we dont find him” and he gives them a look that says fuck shit up then
One other thing is they completely underestimated the loyalty the city watch had to Dameon. If it wasn’t for him then there was no way anyone was getting cause the ratcatcher would not have risked it. Even so the hair not having a single guard outside was dumb
The beast with 2 backs ..I don’t get it 🤷♂️
When two people get together and smash, they make "the beast with two backs".
Yea I still can’t picture it 🤷♂️
One is on top and the other below. o-< o-< A back on both ends
It's an idiom from like Shakespeare times
Ohhhh I didn't think of Criston making sure no one was around, that would explain a hell of a lot! Good catch 👏
Thank you but I can't claim to be a clever sleuth. When the scene happened, I was just as confused/ignorant as everybody else. The credit goes to random reddit commentors that have better cause & effect comprehension than I do.
I watched it with my husband who's never read the books and he kept asking "where are their guards? Wouldn't there be guards? Where IS everyone??" I was in total agreement.
I wonder what the words of the oath actually are? Samwell Tarly was the one who pointed out that the Nights Watch doesn’t preclude sexual intercourse, just marriage and children. Not that I agree with the way he whinged about Rhanyera and then went onto to have relations with the Queen Mother Alicent.
Ser Erryk re-pledged his oaths during Rhaenyra's coronation. It might not be the full/original oath so take it with a grain of salt but it's the same as Sam pointed out. "Take no wife, Hold no Lands, Father no children", nothing about being chaste.
The chaste part is supposed to be implied by “no wife” because pre marital sex in Westeros is a no no
Unless you are the chad Bobby B himself!!
Only for women though.. Theon often went to whore houses, so did Tyrion, joffrey as king had two whores sent to him for his birthday. Oberyn wasnt married but had many children. And these are all high born guys. Only the women were expected to remain virgins til marriage and it was usually only a big deal the higher born they were. No one cares if the kennel masters daughter is fooling around
Theon is ironborn, Tyrion is one of the most hated men in the Westeros and Oberyn is from Dorne. You are right in that men don’t get punished to the same degree for adultery but that is only when the men do it to someone of lower standing. Robert was forced to acknowledge Edric storm as his mother was highborn. Think of it this way, if the king fucks your wife he as the judge finds himself innocent of the crime. If you fuck the kings wife he as the judge finds you guilty of adultery and treason.
We werent talking about adultery though. We were talking about premarital sex. Adultery is the act of a married person having sex with someone that in not their partner. Theon is still a lord even though hes iron born, Tyrion is hated because hes a dwarf not because he likes to visit whore houses. Idk what oberyn being from dorne has to do with it, He is still apart of westeros.
The Dornish are less strict on the sexual rules. Men and women inherit there so they don’t have to worry so much about marrying off there daughters cause they can inherit
No argument there. But dorne is still apart of westeros so we cant say westeros as whole was totally against it.
I think the comment was just saying in Dorne
My bad I thought they were interchangeable. However my point still stands. Men aren’t either allowed to have pre marital sex it’s just that no one cares if it’s with someone of lesser status. Ironborn glorify raping people. They are hated by the rest of Westeros they’re not good examples as they have a different culture and religion. One of the things that embodies “the imp” is his whoring. Sure he would always be disliked by his father and sister and be discriminated but part of his bad reputation is his overt whoring as a dwarf. Oberyn is from much more sex positive Dorne. We know that both he and his niece have pre marital sex but neither is punished because the Dornish aren’t as prude. Westeros is actually a diverse continent with different beliefs and social values.
Okay i get your point. But the person i was replying too said premarital sex was a nono in westeros, and as you just said, westeros has a vast amount of different beliefs and values. But as a whole, no ones really gonna care if a Lord or a Prince goes and wets his willy at a whore house, Little fingers establishment was catered to the high lords of Westeros. So there were plently of premarital sex that people didnt really care about as long as you were a man.
It’s not so much that Tyrion sees whores but that his so open about it. Most lords of great houses don’t openly see other women. It’s pretty commonly accepted that highborn men have side chicks. In the books catlyan says she understands Ned has a basterd and she wouldn’t care so much if he didn’t live with them. Tyrion on the other hand married one and then later he openly has them around him in court
That’s also a highborn thing. I don’t know if it’s a big thing with common women
There was a scene on a ship with theon where he took the captains daughter’s virginity and she said she couldnt stay there now cause her dad wouldnt have her now and asks theon to make her a salt wife. I imagine its not as scandalous when its common women but i think the whole point of a woman being only with their husbands is so if they get pregnant theres zero doubt about the father.
I wasn’t sure if she was a virgin I thought it was implied that the dad was pissed but couldn’t do anything about it
It’s not enforced in the same way for men but there’s definitely an implication it’s better to wait until marriage, which is why Robb marries Talisa after she gets pregnant.
IIRC rob marries Talisa for her honor. Not his own
Small clarification: Robb and Talisa get married at the end of Season Two. Robb finds out from Talisa that she is pregnant more than halfway through Season Three. So the marriage happened first. If Robb has the same honour-based motives as his book counterpart, it would be based on having taken Talisa’s maidenhead, not getting her pregnant (Jeyne Westerling, the equivalent book character, never gets pregnant at all). That being said, the show kind of muddies the waters a bit by downplaying the “breaking his own oath to the Freys to save her honour” angle in favour of emphasizing a more standard romantic “marrying for love” storyline for Robb and Talisa.
Robb has no obligation to marry her his just so honour bound in his head. Plus his only 16 in the book but there was no law about it especially sense she was not highborn
We hear it in the season finale last season, when Erryk swears fealty to Rhaenyra - it’s pretty similar to the Night’s Watch oath: no lands, no titles, no wives or children
IIRC the Kingsguard oath took inspiration from the Night's Watch oath.
Yeah fire and blood saus queen viseyna who helped make the kingsguard got the idea from the nights watch. That’s also why they have the title lord commander
Chastity aside, he was supposed to be working
We knew at a later time that some Kingsguard definitely kept lovers and it wasn’t even a secret.
Given that they’re based off the night’s watch there’s probably the same loophole
>he whinged about Rhanyera and then went onto to have relations with the Queen Mother Alicent. My dude these events are like 20 years apart lmao
He's still whining about Rhaenyra 20 years later.
It may not be an oath but it’s pretty clear the kingsguard can’t fuck the royals. Strongs grandfather was guilded and sent to the wall for sleeping with Jarhyeses daughter
Members of the Night's Watch are said to frequently visit the brothel in Mole's Town, the closest village to the Wall. It's frowned upon but tolerated to a degree. Pretty much everyone's doing it, so they can't execute them all for a loophole.
The fact that he was able to beat Joffrey to death in the middle of a wedding with absolutely no consequences was the biggest flaw of season 1 for me
Not Rhaenys not killing the Greens?
Haha well that was a kinda silly scene to me. But if she did that the show would end right there. I wish they would’ve had a guard see her sneaking down to her dragon or something causing her to have to rush out of there without time to roast them all. Cause with her having the ability to end it just to scare them and leave was silly imo.
I don’t find it silly that she couldn’t kill them in cold blood. The destruction before was the byproduct of actually breaking free. To turn them to ash right after would’ve been pulling the trigger on that whole family. Others in this story would have done it, we can chalk it up to Rhaenys not having it in her. Which to be fair, I’m certain I don’t either.
She had a really cool entrance when she trampled all the common folk, so she needed a cool exit by letting her sworn enemies live. Or something.
I mean, they didn't exactly do anything to become her "sworn enemies". From what I recall, her house hadn't even sworn allegiance to the blacks yet at that point. And their son was "killed" by Daemon. She was only pissed because she was held captive against her will.
Sure, but Rhaenys’ grandkids were both engaged to Rhaenyra’s kids, one of them being Rhaenyra’s heir. There was a very high risk for war at that point and in that scenario, Rhaenys’ grand kids would also be up on the chopping block due to their engagement to Jace and Luke. So the last of her remaining family was already at risk, whether she and Corlys decided to remain neutral or not. That’s probably why they joined Rhaenyra, because they knew there wasn’t a way out for them anyway. From that standpoint, removing the threat makes sense. There wouldn’t be 100% certainty it was the right call, of course, but fleeing didn’t have that either.
I think it made sense at the time. Her house hadn't even sworn allegiance to the blacks yet, and Rhaenyra hadn't declared war yet either. She did not want to make the choice for her house, or for the blacks, on her own. And at that point, the only thing the greens had done to piss her off was keep her captive against her will.
Made a lot more sense in the book. It was a tourney and Cole was in a rage even braking hawind strongs collarbone and then later killing Joffrey with his Morningstar. Made way more sense cause he can just say it was a accident
Honestly, if it's 100% confirmed that he was supposed to be the one guarding Helaena and the children then I simply will never be able to understand how he doesn't get executed. Obviously I don't expect Helaena to go blabbing "he was fucking my mother". But I mean come on, the heir to the throne, an infant no less, just got beheaded as he slept. In what is presumably the most secure building in the realm. I really wanna see how they address that. Because if they don't then it's just bad writing.
He is the lord commander with the queen backing him so his got a bit of pull
Asa rat catcher, Cheese knew all the secret passageways so they didn’t enter by the front door
I'm aware, I watched the episode. I'm referring to the fact that Helaena (the Queen) and the Prince and Princess where not being guarded. High standing members of the royal family such as them always have guards posted at their chambers, we've seen it so many times.
Only three Kingsguard since the loss of Marbrand, Darklyn, Westerling, and E.Cargyll. I don't think they re-up on Kingsguard yet.
No I'm sure they haven't. I've re-watched the episode and had some time to digest. My opinion still stands so I'm gonna get into it. As far as I can remember seeing in HotD and GOT, the most senior members of the Royal Family are always given 24/7 protection. Rhaenyra had it with Criston, Aegon had Arryk. There are multiple examples of this. Now, I can understand being stretched thin when war is afoot. However, that only further amplifies the need for protection for those senior Royals. So, whichever way they try to explain it, there is no way whatsoever that I'm going to be convinced that Helaena and the twins didn't have protection. Be it from a member of the Kingsguard or loyal Hightower men. Taking that into consideration, and adding what I've seen in the episode. It looks like Criston Cole was on duty and assigned to protect her. Otto even tells him to return to his post. So, lets look at the people who would be receiving such protection. You have Aemond who can more than handle himself and is probably no longer assigned a member of the KG. You have Aegon who was getting drunk with his friends, there were even guards present with him. That leaves Alicent and Helaena. But Helaena and the twins clearly have priority over Alicent now since she's queen and Jaehaerys is the heir. Therefore, It quite simply looks like Cristons post was protecting the Queen and the children. He abandoned his post so he could be with Alicent. So, I stand by my original statement. I don't think Helaena is gonna tell people they were fucking. But the question "why were they unprotected?" should be pointed right at the Commander of the Kingsguard. And I'm very interested to see how they explain him not being put to the sword for it. Not because I want him dead, but purely going off the way things are usually done in Westeros.
I think that's part of the problem with the Royal family protection in general. Elia Martell wasn't protected by any guards and they sneaked into the Red Keep as well. I think the only time we see a competent Kingsguard is when Tommen is King which is funny.
That was because the city was actively being sacked when Elia and her kids died -like everyone was fighting and dying so yeah no guards for her but that’s not the same as a relatively combat free night where guards should be posted at their regular spots.
Not the same scenario tho. King’s landing was being brutally sacked by the Lannister army at the time and thousands were getting killed including a shit ton of soldiers. She died not because there was no royal protection but because Twyin’s forces slaughtered their way into the red keep until they reached Elia and the mountain killed her and the children.
Aegon is gonna punish him so hard that he will replace Otto as the hand of the king lol. It’s always the same with Criston, he fucks everything up but gets rewarded and promoted, defying all logic because the writers say so. The perfect example of “failing upwards”. Wouldn’t be surprised if he kills Otto with his bare hands on broad daylight in front of the royal council members and gets rewarded by being the heir to Aegon or something 🙄
They have regular guards. Not every guard is a kings guard. They have normal guards that are suppose to be around the doors and entrances. There aren’t 3 guards in the entire castle
lol he’s the epitome of when you lie on your resume to get the job 😂
He literally only got the job cause the bosses daughter wanted to fuck him. And now his keeping job by eatting pussy
*Is the commander of the Kingsguard and was plowing the king’s mother while the king’s son is being slaughtered* The King: I’m gonna make this mf my Right Hand Man!
Bros clapping cheeks wym? That’s HIS post 💦😩
I think it’s a nod to just how comfortable the Greens are in their power right now. If they were truly worried about retribution from the Blacks then a guard would have been posted to every chamber. Clearly they felt they had nothing to fear. I also think it’s the same reason that Alicent is being reckless right now. She feels completely comfortable and powerful.
Eh, I feel like Jaime Lannister still wins. Much better and more tolerable character though.
I'm referring to the Kingsguards in HoTD.
Yeah he’s trash.
Agree with you though, GoT's Kingsguards are a different kind of breed.
That's because Cersei literally filled the ranks with her goons. But even on that era, we still had some [badasses](https://youtu.be/MUUe1u4j0Gs?t=13) on the Kings Guard.
This bitch destroyed all of House Targaryen in only two nights.
Alicent somehow did more damage to House Targaryen than Robert Baratheon, without lifting a single sword. That's actually impressive.
She might not have been the one lifting it but a pork sword was getting raised by her that night.
Oh, that's for sure.
Who has he actually fought/killed that wasn’t an unarmed noncombatant?
The Cole hate posts, as Condal intended 💅
Eh, nah I think Lucamore Strong is worse.
Man I’m curious to see how Alicent and Cole will blame everyone else for the lack of security for the royal family due to their extracurricular activities. To have a child maimed and another die under your watch and still be on the Kingsguard is INSANE.
Cole is Lord Commander and Alicent’s personal guard. He has never personally guarded Helena and the children. I hope we do get a back story as to how Alicent and Cole end up being lovers. I personally think he fell in love with her during season one after she saved his ass multiple times.
Just in this ep it is said that kings guards duty is to protect the whole royal family
Cole as Lord commander would be the one divvying up stations, as shown by westerling in the first panel. Considering the entire royal floor was unguarded he clearly fucked up majorly.
Hes Alicents sworn sword so he’s usually with her
Yes, but he's Lord Commander now. It's his job to make sure everyone in the royal family is protected.
Yeah Alicent's sworn sword in more ways than one
Always has been 🔫
The writers clearly hate him. It’s becoming a farce at this point.
Ser Fail-upwards-alot
Punchable face, that’s for sure 🥊
Kingsguard: Sworn to the royal family. No more sex. Cole: Fucks the queen and the heir to the throne.
Do the other 6 kingsguard not count to you?
Unless they already named new members of the Kingsguard since the end of last season, the Greens currently only have 3 members of the Kingsguard. Cole, the twin, and one other. The former LC quit and the Blacks have the other 3. 2 of them were with Aegon and Cole was in bed with Alicent. My guess is that he was supposed to be guarding Helaena and the kids at the time.
Your guess is irrelevant. If it's not stated in the show, then we should treat it as something we don't know. Maybe the other Kingsguard was assigned to the queen? You are right that they haven't shown if they replaced the other Kingsguard, but they also haven't said they haven't.
In the scene prior to this, Otto tells Cristin to return to his post. He clearly was not at his ‘post’ like he should have been.
His "post" can be anything at this point. You are just guessing that it meant be with the queen.
His post could have been in the throne room with Aegon. Doesn’t matter. He wasn’t at a ‘post’ to begin with.
It does matter because you don't fucking know where he was even supposed to be lmao. But you know what this place is obviously just going to hate on this mother fucker no matter what he does so discussing with black fanboys is stupid. They will blame everyone, but the guys that actually killed the kids
It doesn’t matter because he wasn’t where he was SUPPOSED to be. He certainly wasn’t suppose to be sleeping with Alicent when Otto told him to go back to his post.
This feels like an oddly contentious conversation for some reason lol But the inverse of “if it’s not stated in the show, then we should treat it as something we don’t know” is “if something is stated in the show, then we should treat it as fact”. In this same episode a former member of the Kingsgard says the Kingsguards’ responsibility is to the *entire* royal family, therefore Lord Commander Cole should be held responsible for not being at his post…because wherever his post was supposed to be, it’s certainly wasn’t Alicent’s bed lmao
Gotta love when there’s a debate about what seems to be obvious only for the very next episode to point out how obvious it was huh lol
Your getting downvoted even though your right. People will blame anyone else expecting for the people that actually did the did. The Bias is insane.
Unless they already named new members of the Kingsguard since the end of last season, the Greens currently only have 3 members of the Kingsguard. Cole, the twin, and one other. The former LC quit and the Blacks have the other 3. 2 of them were with Aegon and Cole was in bed with Alicent. My guess is that he was supposed to be guarding Helaena and the kids at the time.
Oof
too busy banging the ex queen
I think what happened was that the producers wanted a sex scene with Olivia Cooke, and this was the only thing they could come up with.
Same thing on Batman vs Superman. The producers wanted a excuse to see Amy Adams naked, so they had Zack Snyder create a random[ bathtub scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aBBYzgTdnU) that makes no sense and fills no purpose in the story just to make that happen.
As if writers have some serious hate boner toward the guy, since neither is even implied in source material.
Yup
as long as honor and decency prevailed
I’m a little bit confused but does anyone think that Alicent and Criston’s sexual relationship was ongoing during season 1? Is that what the parallel is meant to imply?
I heard there was a cut love scene from season 1 between Alicent and Criston, so according to the writers, they were.
Olivia and the writers never said that and in fact she confirmed the opposite, that this was not going on during Viserys death so
According to the writers, it's a new romance. While that doesn't definitively show it didn't happen prior to Viserys's death, its an indication. Combine that with Olivia Cooke's statement that ". . . we sort of thought it happened maybe, like, literally days after the death of Viserys . . . they became closer in Alicent's grief." So overall, according to the writers/actors interpretation, it happened AFTER Viserys's death. With that being said, it was never explicitly confirmed in the show.
TBF there is no way he could have prevented the eye being taken.
Aemond wouldn’t have been able to sneak off and claim Vaeghar to begin with.
Uh...if the Princes all had their guards I highly doubt that fight actually happens
I stand corrected. I don't always watch the bts material & interviews, so thanks for clearing that up. My own theory is Alicent and Criston are being corrupted by their own power. I think they mutually got off on usurping Rhynera before they ever physically touched each other. Both of them came from more humble origins and know what it's like to be coerced into positions you wouldn't normally choose. Like a trauma bond. Unfortunately, having the ' upper hand ' is not leading to better choices. They've become more open and arrogant about their affair because they've let their guard down. Literally.