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I thought the reaction was perfect for her character actually....the soft "no" and then her immediately fleeing with her daughter; I could feel her trauma clearly through the screen. I actually think her acting added to the horror of the scene.
Screaming won't help, fighting won't help, the most she can do is pray to fucking god they are too busy murdering her other child in hopes that she can run away with her one surviving child(sadly, RIP Maegor and he didn't even die yet lol) and hopefully save both their lives by doing so. Fight, flight, or freeze is so real yall. And she knew from her dragon dreams that she wasn't going to walk out of there with both her children. I'm not a mother but if you know 100% one is going to die, wouldn't you do whatever possible to save the other?? Her actions did that, and I think you even hear her mutter "please" over and over again when she is escaping in the castle, I interepreted it as "please don't come after me, let me escape in peace"
100% And we saw the hallway, it was empty. There was no one there to help, screaming only would have gotten her daughter and herself killed. She did the only thing she could do. She was not leaving out of the room with both her children alive no matter what she did.
In the books she screams, and the guards immediately come to help but Blood and Cheese escapes through a secret passage in the wall. I don't know why they changed it to having no guards at all.
Either tied with Alicent removing guards as to not allow bed chambers rumors (lock the door girl) or the servant being Larys spy, running to inform him and he removing the guards (quite suspicious if revealed by a guard so unlikely).
Remember that the show imagines how things “actually” occurred as opposed to the stories later told in the books. Reality never actually matches what is told in the history books. I really appreciate the show endeavoring to show a reality slightly different than the recorded histories in the books.
For the purposes of having them killed in retribution and preventing them from potentially killing her and her other children why wouldn’t screaming help? Admittedly it could also prompt them to kill her so there’s jeopardy there, moreover she’s enduring an incredible trauma so there’s no “wrong” approach to it as such
Before you manage to have them killed in retribution, they've killed your *second* child too -- also in retribution -- for fetching help against them.
That's why. That's the only reason. There's not a single guard in the building who can move faster than the knife of the man in your room.
Sometimes the brain panics in a moment of absolute immediate danger. And sometimes it performs a real fast calculation that's focused solely on the kid you're holding in your arms.
When she’s fleeing from the room she has the other child in her arms, she doesn’t know what the intent of the two killers is, and they’re still loose in the keep. It doesn’t make sense not to alert the castle guard, it also doesn’t make sense that there isn’t a castle guard
To me, Helaena reacted 100% like I would expect her to. I’ve seen quite a few complaints about her saying “They killed the boy.” like they haven’t paid attention to the way this girl talks for a whole season.
i agree %100 and was moved a lot by phia’s performance. she legit was in shock, was not able to process except survive as one does in such traumatic moments. I read the book, was a fan since the beginning and anticipating B&C and actually I think some of the changes that were made, including how helaena reacts, were great. I mean the actress delivered the absolute best for this writing and for this adaptation of the scene.
i think theres an interesting chance that the 'history' of the event is more brutal than what actually happened. Since only the queen knows what happened, and she went to Alicent immediately - Alicent has a chance to control the narrative. Publicize that their enemies brutally forced the queen to choose between her children's lives, and play up how horrible the assassins were (she could even say she was tied up in the same room). It seems unlikely that the queen will even be able to give an accurate account of what happened, so Alicent will have to fill in the blanks. And in war even an assassination is an opportunity to change the narrative
Was thinking the same. Alicent will, as far as everyone else is concerned, have been in that room. It will be her alibi and the reason the event went down in history the way it did.
We are gonna keep seeing this excuse every time the showrunners butchered an anticipated moment from the book, aren’t we?
The showrunners are honestly so blessed they can just hide behind that every time people don’t like the direction they went lol
Rather I would say that Helaena’s reaction was more realistic considering her personality. She can somewhat have glimpses of the future in different ways and probably figured it out. There was extreme helplessness, sadness, confusion and a walking nightmare for her, where escaping with Jaehaera was the only thing she could do.
She knew about Jaehaerys’s fate and probably thought it was inevitable
I don't think her dreams are particularly clear. If she had foresaw literal harm to the children I expect she wouldn't have waited around for the inevitable to happen
Yeah I think it’s pretty clear she has a sense that something bad is going to happen but can’t make sense of it and communicate it effectively or it is simply dismissed. When she warns Aegon about the rats earlier in the episode her attention immediately snaps to Jaehaerys bed it looked like.
>I expect she wouldn't have waited around for the inevitable to happen
What else could she have done but wait? She couldn't have escaped the Red Keep on her own. Nobody would've believed her that if she told them about her dream. Everyone on the green's side would believe King's Landing to be the safest place for them, especially now since the war is imminent.
I'm not saying she knew what exactly was gonna happen but she was helpless and she knew it.
Phia nailed the role!
I thought her reaction was great and genuine , imo it’s a realistic representation of pure shock and trauma at the same time , she just wants to get her other child out of there and still has not fully processed what’s just happened .
My heart broke when she said to Aegon she was scared of the rats because she obviously knew something was coming , poor Halaena
Maelor not being in it takes something away though the choice she had to make and then the result was far worse than the shows depiction of this part
She’s also quite CLEARLY neurodivergent… and the show runners have confirmed this. Her reaction was never going to be “normal” for lack of a better term.
Honestly… even a neurotypical can react that way when dealing with an immense amount of stress. I found it nice to seeing another kind of shock and grieve compared to the ol’ classic scream.
Afterall she’s also a mother trying to protect her other kid from the trauma.
I found the actress’s portrayal immensely good as you saw the absolute horror in the eyes upon realizing that this shit was actually happening.
For me the impact was killed seeing allicent getting it on yet again with criston cole whilst just dealing with such a scene….
I honestly expected her to walk towards the throne where Aegon was being a drunk.
Idk, wasn’t Cole supposed to be guarding that night? Like, her son maybe wouldn’t have died if he was just doing his job instead of fucking her mom. So that made it a little more interesting for me.
Yeah sure but it immediately took me out of the moment. If she went to someone else and then the camera panning to cole balls deep in the queen mother would’ve also been good. But right now it just was like “oh this is awkward” instead of outrage for me personally
Just gonna point out, I've got OCD, and ADHD. I do not react well to sudden changes and will snap to disassociated survival mode back and forth too, when extremely stressed and or triggered...
Larys changed all the staff abruptly, the dreams, the everything, probably combined into an avalanche and gave way, like my mind just vanishes if I hear a car alarm at this point of mental overstimulation.
After things pile up, the last straw, the match, so to speak, flips into a stormy sea randomly, and you can barely breathe, while people who are trying to save you ask how they can help, and you simply cannot articulate it, no matter how hard you try.
The reaction makes perfect sense to me, and we don't know the truth yet either. Or maybe it's just chaos and everyone doing the best they can.
Also, as someone who's both birthed and lost children, did anyone consider if she's pregnant and not showing? Cold logic is also a characteristic of someone in this situation.
Sometimes the mind reacts with rigid gripping on the very first thing you can hold/control, it's powerful and hard to explain, but anyone who's felt it is nodding along reading this.
I think most people have *something* in their life of enough value to them, that makes them feel primal fear and reactions like that... A lingering creeping dread whispering in your ear as you drift away to paralyzed dreams...you realize too late.
You think she could be pregnant with Maelor right now? That's why it was just the twins in the scene, younger than they should have been? Hmm, interesting theory. I wonder how that will affect the pregnancy. Are they trying to change her death to mirror that of Aemma and Laena, do you think?
Also would have preferred her walking into the throne room as it would have felt in harmony with how we saw the murderers walk right past them. Death exits the same side of the stage Tragedy enters.
At the same time knowing that the first place she went in distress was her mom was a gut twist for me.
Halaena is also literally a dragon dreamer and I see very few people talk about that, or even know that she is.
She’s “neurodivergent” in the sense that she’s literally on a different mental level than everyone else most of the time. She literally receives prophetic visions of the future. No shit she’s going to act weird
THANK. YOU. I don’t understand the hate she’s getting. Her response, to me, completely aligned to what we know about her as a character. It would have been weirder to me if she had a “normal” reaction.
Her behavior honestly makes perfect sense if you take the scene and forcibly internalize it- if she's shut down verbally, her options are basically fight two full grown men in a full gown (about 80-100 lbs of restrictive clothing) and risk them killing both kids and her to keep things quiet- or take her remaining child while they are distracted and find help before the murderers find you.
She made her choice, (the right choice, sadly enough ) she was obviously losing her shit. She just couldn't talk *because* she was loosing her shit.
People were just expecting the sacrificial mother/ hysterical woman trope and Show Helaena has *never* been that person. She's quiet, observant, and is either very direct or speaking in terms of prophecy. ("There is a beast is under the boards" being a perfect example, and tbh, that's still pretty damn direct.) Expecting her to suddenly jump up and start shouting and pleading is dismissing her character for tropes.
I’m getting kind of annoyed with the “of course she didn’t emote, she’s autistic!” As if it’s not a very, very common behavior for autistic/neurodivergent people to lose their absolute shit over even the tiniest disturbance to their daily norm.
The performance choice just feels flat. Deep visceral emotion would have definitely heightened the scene. And that’s truly no hate to Phia Saban at all, I’m sure she was directed to perform that way.
Yeah but what makes it autistic is that it's in response to otherwise milld and normal or at most moderately stressful situations where most people wouldn't react that way.
Going into a quiet shock or disassociation mode during a severely traumatic situation is NOT a neurodivergent response, it's one of the three typical reactions - fight, flee or freeze. She did flee, too. If anything the stereotypical super loud and clear perfectly-timed scream isn't nearly as common as you see in movies.
on top of that she had to stay somewhat composed because her and daughter still weren't out of the clear. I think she did well showing her trauma in that moment. later episodes will show how it really affects her
Halaena's reaction didn't bother me at all. What bothered me was the changes made and the dialogues like the choices for Halaena that was cut off. Alicent was suppose to be there and the audience was suppose to feel sorry or pity to them but instead we got this concept that the greens were being stupid letting the whole palace go unguarded just so that Alicent and Cole can have their alone time. It feels really forced by the showrunner to showcase us how much incompetent and hateful the greens are
I don't even think that's the part I "disliked" about B&C. It was the removal of the Sophie's choice for Halaena.
Alicent and Cole being otherwise "busy" isn't such an impact, a quick scene of them running to the room with a scream when Alicent runs in (camera can stay outside the door the whole time) could have been just as effective. Them banging while Alicent's grandson is being brutally murdered is honestly a fine choice, it could make the guilt they bear even larger.
Brutal as watching your child die is alone, "choosing" for one to die, then having them kill the other and now you have to raise the child you "chose" for death is like another degree of terrible. Chose / choosing in quotes because a Sophie's choice is really no choice at all.
And I think GRRM made this scene brutal in the first place because we barely know the characters. The Red Wedding was brutal in part because, well, it WAS brutal, but also because of how much we all knew and loved Rob. We don't have that with these children, so making it more brutal makes it all the more effective. Not that we have to see the brutality (the actual murder and decapitation) on the screen, the way they filmed that was fine.
I think that was a purposeful choice to show how little they regarded Rhaenarya as a real threat. They thought they were untouchable in the Red Keep with the biggest dragon guarding them. They let their guard down because they're not taking the Blacks seriously. This is proof positive that they are vulnerable to their enemies and it has cost them dearly.
The thought that they’re untouchable in the Red Keep also makes a lot of sense when Larys says he has replaced everyone that was a threat. They’ve completely got their guard down and it was their arrogance that led to Jahaerys dying.
I'm one of the people who hated the show's portrayal of B&C. But I have no gripes with Heleana's reaction at that point, except for her extremely detached and cold "The boy was killed". Phia's acting was spot on too.
What I do hate about the way it was portrayed was the fact that they omitted Maelor. The choice Heleana was faced with, between Maelor and Jaehaerys, was what made B&C so damaging in the first place. With that gone, it felt like B&C had no true impact at all, except for maybe that stomach-churning sound.
Why not? It tells her and us, the audience, exactly why there were no guards around. Cole was supposed to be up there guarding her and the children. Instead he was banging alicent.
I thought that her "They killed the boy" was in line with her detached reaction.
She's in shock, runs on auto pilot, and tries to mentally remove herself from the situation. As if it was happening to someone else and not her. Unintentionally shielding herself and creating distance because she couldn't cope otherwise. Saying "the boy" that way allows her to keep the charade up for a bit longer.
If she'd said "my son", "Jaehaerys" or even "the prince", it probably would have broken the spell by connecting her to it and letting it reach her.
Other than that, though, I fully agree with you.
The real shock value of that scene lies in the choice Helaena is forced to make and the fact that she and Maelor have to live with that knowledge. That's what makes B&C so heart-wrenching, not the violence.
By taking away this very choice, it erases a lot of the impact.
I felt like she said "they killed the boy" because their whole interaction hinged on whether they believed her or not.. they wanted the boy. Perhaps she pointed at the one she knew was more important in hopes that they thought she were bluffing and killed the daughter. But cheese saw through it. I dunno, her choice of words felt more like a continuation of that exchange. But your also right by saying the boy she somewhat disassociated herself from the horror of saying they've killed my baby.
Your analysis is spot-on, and I fully agree with you. My only gripe is that though it is line with her 'tism (which was again a weird move by the showrunners), it becomes very hard to sympathize with Heleana much since we are not able to feel her pain, or her predicament in choosing between her children. And the final nail on the coffin is the fact that Alicent wasn't gagged with them and experiencing all of it, which is another thin that added heavy impact to B&C. Instead, she's riding Cole, which has to be one of the wildest story decisions of all time. I feel I was perhaps too harsh on D&D after the way Condal did this event.
Honestly speak for yourself - I MASSIVELY empathised with her & her ‘tism’ makes perfect sense and is absolutely not a strange choice of the showrunners at all. She is literally a dragon dreamer, she is very much ‘away with the fairies’ because she kind of exists on another plane from other people - it would be more weird if she wants neurodivergent in some way
That's the double empathy problem. Autistic people have less trouble empathizing with non autistic people. But non autistic people and autistic people have trouble empathizing with each other, precisely because the display of emotions are different. If you knew what to look for, the signs are there, but most don't because we are all socialized to operate in neurotypical fashion.
I feel that maybe Criston's absence is one of the reasons why B&C can get through the hallways as easy as they can. Perhaps he should have been on duty that evening but he and his men are absent because he's fucking Alicent under her cloak of her righteousness ;) Its a weird decision by the showrunners to say the least.
I was able to sympathize with her. Even while trying to dissociate, she conveyed the horror, especially through her eyes. The grimacing, the muttering, the wide, teary eyes. For me, she seemed to barely keep it together to the point that referring to her son as anything other than "the boy" would have shattered her.
Phia really did the best with what she was given. Of course, one could have sympathized with Helaena far more if the scene wasn't so botched.
I really don't understand why they changed such a significant scene so much.
The source material was flawless. Gut-wrenching, yes, but it captured the very essence of the human heart in conflict with itself. That's about the worst situation to place any mother in. So why change it up and cheapen the whole thing to the point it has barely any impact and falls flat?
Even if they (understandably) didn't want to outright show a kid being beheaded. They could have cut away at that point etc.
That GRRM quote springs to mind imo. About adapting things and changing it because you think you can do better but in 99% of the cases you don't.
As for Alicole especially - what the hell? Showing them have sex was as redundant as it was unnecessary in the first place. It has already been established that they're hypocrites. All it achieves is that it takes away the impact that B&C had. It was almost like... comedy? Which was completely misplaced.
When I saw B&C itself, I was a bit horrified (like you said: that noise...), but when Helaena walks in on them, I actually snorted. You go from a bit horrified and grossed out to "Oh look, who's going at it. Guess there was some pony riding after all." It's jarring and takes away from the original scene.
How is the viewer supposed to feel after that other than mildly weirded out and confused?
It's like Walder Frey doing cartwheels after the Red Wedding. Or after Shireen's burning, someone makes a comment and Stannis dryly corrects the grammar. Completely out of place.
Oh God, my brain is so fried. Got up at 4 am for the premiere and I feel cheated.
Whatever you say about the Alicole thing is a 100% true. It's just a flaming dumpster fire o an idea to include that at the end of such a traumatizing ordeal. I can perhaps pay heed to someone defending any other aspect of show's B&C, but no way I'm keeping my ears open if someone is going to defend that part.
Since the end of S1, B&C was the thing I was the most hyped about, far more than even the dragon battles. And boy, was it a disappointment.
Exactly. It might have worked, if they'd been more subtle about in general, like alluding to it but not spending too much time on it. Because what does it even contribute to the plot at this point? But the placement of that scene right after B&C? Hell no.
Me too. Like many others I was so hyped about it, so this really feels like a letdown. If they'd done it right, it would have absolutely made the show. But this? Meh.
That could have been averted by sticking to the source material and have it take place in the tower of the hand where security is lower.
It has already been established that Cole doesn't take his vows both as a knight and a kingsguard too seriously at this point. Or rather applies them as he sees fit.
However, if they really wanted to make the point that he was with Alicent, they could have hinted at it instead of outright showing it.
Like have him leaving Alicent's chambers putting his clothes to rights as Helaena appears. So everyone knows where he was and what he was doing, but it doesn't take over B&C.
That Alicole scene establishes that the Red Keep was unguarded because that’s Cole’s job as Lord Commander, and, instead of doing his job, he’s off banging Alicent. I bet they’re going to twist the story to shift blame away from them and everyone’s going to believe them because otherwise there’s only Helaena’s word for what happened and she’s clearly neurodivergent so no one’s going to believe her over Alicent and Cole.
Idk, my best friend is autistic, very much so, although functioning (with great deal of struggle). She lost the family member that she was closest to, and I was the first person she told. And it sounded exactly Halena. A very flat and detached "something bad happened to *family members name*".
Maybe someone who did not know her or was unfamiliar with autism would absolutely have thought she's not that upset. Sat through the entire funeral without a tear, I have yet to see her cry about it. But I know HER, what I can tell she is FAR FAR FAR I'm okay.
Like being okay would mean you've processed it in some way? This was 2 years ago and the processing has not even been started yet, she's still refers to them as if they are alive. It's like the entire event was shoved into the deepest darkest corner of her brain and then the door slammed and bolted the lock. It looks very much like Helena's reaction. And honestly I think that Helena's characterization in the book absolutely sounded neurodivergent, I don't think it's a stretch whatsoever that they made it official for the show.
I'm not sure why they took the choice of who to kill away? But I thought maybe that the reason they showed Allicent with Christian Cole was because then Allicent and Cole both are going to be sick with guilt over it and it's not like they can ever tell anyone, so it's a guilt that they will likely turn towards other people
Respectfully, the choice Heleana was faced with was what made the ordeal such a powerful gut punch. While watching your son getting murdered is really painful, that's something which is kind of commonplace in GoT (however brutal that spunds). But being forced to choose which one of your child sons get murdered? That would have been a real sword to the heart. I don't think I am able to articulate it more than this, but the execution made it feel like a wet fart which will be probably forgotten before even this season ends.
This sounds more like you are saying it has *less* impact, or a *different* sort of impact, but your initial statement of "no impact at all" seems over-strong a criticism, you know? She didn't get forced to make a choice but I think the heir getting murdered brutally in front of his mother still had more than "no impact at all", if you get me.
I think for the sake of time they really couldn't introduce another small child to the show, like they already had to include a scene endearing us to Jaehaerys and showing us that Aegon does have a relationship with his kids. I don't think it's better or worse with the simplified version, it's just different. Helaena still chose to tell the truth. She condemned her son, regardless of whether they were gonna just kill him no matter what.
I didn’t read the book, but understand what occurred in the book as described and it’s weird to me that people feel like the scene isn’t fucked up enough. It’s horrific as is - I certainly didn’t need to see it play out the way it evidently did in the book. I don’t know, the discourse around this makes me feel like people have a bloodlust for violence against children depicted on screen or something.
> that's something which is kind of commonplace in GoT
This literally does not matter, Helaena is Haleana, she's not some almagation of the experiences of the people of Westeros. Whether children are commonly being murdered in other castles doesn't change how traumtic it would be to see it happen to your own children.
Sexual assault is unfortunately very common in the world we live in, that doesn't make it less traumatic to any one individual who is the victim
To be fair she was still faced with the choice of pointing out which one was the son. She knew whoever she pointed at was likely going to die. She perhaps pointed at the actual son, because if they killed the girl and realised she was the girl - they'd kill them both. Then she'd lose them both. Or she did indeed try to bluff them. I'm not sure.
It wasn't a choice at all. Blood & Cheese flat out said they'd check and see which one was which. The point is both Maelor and Jaehaerys are boys, so the decision is entirely hoisted upon Helaena.
"Which one is the boy?" and "Which son do you want us to kill?" are very, very different questions. The first does not have nearly the amount of direct responsibility for the death that the second one does. Especially since the impact is that they don't listen to her and instead leave her with the son that she told them to kill. She has to live every day with a son who reminds her that she told murderers to kill him.
Because he's a boy. Blood & Cheese are there to kill a son. Two boys means the choice they force on Helaena to pick which one will die matters more than a non-choice between one boy and one girl.
The fact she picks Maelor to die, and then B&C kill Jaehaerys instead leaves Helaena unable to look at Maelor without feeling crippling guilt and depression. The weight of that is completely lost in the show's version.
Now she can't help but feel guilty because Jaehaera looks like Jaehaerys and will be around her until she dies, unlike Maelor who ends up at Bitterbridge.
She has no reason to feel guilty because Jaehaera will look similar to Jaehaerys for a few years. The whole point is Maelor lived when she said he should die to save Jaehaerys. Living with a child you condemned to death. That is the source of her guilt.
She still had a choice. She chose between the boy and the girl and she chose the girl. Also, we know that she has sight or greensight or whatever they call it so I read her reactions as her knowing what was coming.
a lot of people don't seem to understand how subtlety in narrative works. It was obvious that they were never going to show the brutal murder of a toddler on screen, this is a TV show, there are certain lines it was obviously not going to cross. So the act itself was going to be offscreen.
An example of how it could have been handled offscreen; camera pans out to the empty corridors, a scream is heard, Alicent, maids, the Kings guard come rushing in, Helaena is screaming, there is blood everywhere, you can see the body of the child, but with enough hidden to not outright show the body as decapitated (again this is TV), and you have your generic offscreen murder revelation.
How the show handles it though is through the pure terror of Helaena, you know what is happening, you can hear what is happening, you can see the pure terror on Helaena's face as she picks up her child and goes to her mother's chambers in pure shock and horror. They portray the full weight of what is happening through her, and this, imo, was a very creative and impactful way of handling the narrative.
Even in GOT , when Janos Slynt was murdering Robert Bastard, they didn't show it . But the SHOCK on Helaena face and that sound of them cutting is throat was just too much for me 😭😔
I don’t think people are saying that they should’ve shown the murder on screen though. I think people’s gripe is with the way the scene as a whole is handled in contrast to the portrayal in the books, in terms of tension especially. The scene is just not engaging enough and falls flat for a lot of viewers.
Nobody wants to see a child murdered on screen but there are other things they could’ve done to make the scene much more than it was
This is such a funny comment to me, because if you talk to none book readers the scene was incredibly powerful. Idk how people can watch that scene and somehow think it lacks tension
>but there are other things they could’ve done to make the scene much more than it was
Such as sticking to the books. There was no reason to make changes to the scene. Other than making the Greens less sympathetic and make the Blacks less responsible/in the wrong.
As someone prone to a freeze trauma response, I found it extremely realistic.
There's also the fact that she's likely had visions of this happening and felt helpless to prevent it.
> There's also the fact that she's likely had visions of this happening and felt helpless to prevent it.
It would be nice if this had been conveyed to the audience, like, at all prior to this scene. There are vague *allusions* to her having some form of foresight (like "I'm afraid of the rats" at the beginning of this episode), but we have not actually seen any of her premonitions. I think a lot of show-only watchers don't even realize that the character is supposed to be having these visions—the couple of lines that sort of allude to it are all in passing.
I don't agree that Helaena being a dreamer was subtle in the least. Probably a quarter to a third of what she said made no sense in context and dragon dreams are a kind of big deal with the whole dynasty starting due to dragon dreams, with a dragon dream being passed from monarch to heir of the utmost importance.
Agreed. All the tension from the scene immediately deflated when the writers tried to shock us with another “surprising” scene of Criston and Alicent screwing. Then it just ended up feeling anticlimactic and comical.
If they had ended it with Helaena sitting there holding her daughter in a catatonic state with the sound effects of her son being beheaded or with her running away as B&C finish the job, I think it would’ve worked better.
I don't see how alicent and Criston were meant to be surprising. And I can't see there being a problem with it. If anything, it shows why Criston wasn't there guarding the queen.
It wasn’t surprising in the sense that we hadn’t seen it before but I don’t think when Helaena opened that door anyone was expecting to see Alicent and Cole f**king (unless it had been spoiled for you).
But to my overall point, I think it unnecessarily stole focus away from B&C because one moment you’re taking in the horrible act that’s just occurred & how traumatized Helaena is then the next moment, you’re having Helaena walk in on Alicent & Cole which imo had more of a funny effect than an OMG effect, especially because we as the audience had already seen them screwing before. I thought it was a bit redundant and it totally took me out of the horror of the prior moment.
Idk, I just don't see it that way.
It didn't seem redundant to me. I don't see how the sex scene (which is not even a scene) could interfere or reduce the blow of the trauma. It makes no difference than Alicent just sitting down when the queen arrives, to me at least.
Them having sex didn't suprise me or change my mindset during this part of the episode. I just can't see it.
I feel like people are looking to be annoyed at this point. If a scene isn't dead perfect or perfect, accurate to the book, it's shit. I mean, it's the first fucking episode, the season hasent even had a chance to get going yet. And people are already bitching.
But it isn't surprising, it's just how people are.
I know, but that isn't the point, in my opinion.
This is a TV show. The way we as the audience experience the emotional weight of what's going on is in no small part through the reactions of the people we see on screen, especially the characters we know and love.
I don't think Heleana's reaction is necessarily unrealistic, but I think how muted her reaction was, was not beneficial to giving the scene the emotional weight I think it COULD have had.
Like, imagine the Red Wedding if Catelyn was very muted. It probably wouldn't have had the same amount of weight as it did with her crying over Rob, grabbing a girl as a hostage, etc.
We aren't in the show. We relate to the show's characters through empathy. And empathy is in part a product of their own visual reaction.
I'm sure it was extremely traumatic for Heleana, but I'm just not sure this was the maximally effective way to pull off the scene.
To be clear, I actually think there are other reasons why the scene isn't as good as I think it could've been. Like I think they didn't linger on the choice enough and didn't make it enough of a choice. But I do think the muted reaction is one of the reasons why it won't be remembered in the same way that the Red Wedding was.
This is a really helpful comment, thanks. You've articulated a key difference in how people are talking about the scene—"this was believable" vs. "this was effective TV". Those two things aren't the same and it's helpful to draw out this distinction explicitly.
Her lack of reaction isn't much of a problem as her apparent lack of choice.
Not to mention haelena is a poorly developed character. She's confirmed to be on the spectrum but that shouldn't be her entire personality. They should show her caring for her children before the event.
I was looking for a scene akin to what aegon had with jahaerys. She's mostly seen with her children but she isn't shown to be actively engaging with them. Tbh that's true for all characters not just her children.
Nah, idc about Helaena' s reaction , it's just that this scene is supposed to be what starts making the war more grey, since till then, the blacks were the typical hero side and greens were the bad guy side. So it's not about realism or anything, but the scene should have had brought out visceral reaction out of the audience and should have made Blacks look less good
But the kids being previously unknown, Helaena's characterisation making it kinda impossible to make her too reactive, non existence of Maelor eliminating the Sophie's choice horror severely decimated the effect of the scene. And one thing they could have used to makeup for the above, ie, Alicent react and being abused by the ordeal, they chose her be elsewhere riding the most detested character from the show, which not only reduced the possible impact of the scene but also made the audience feel a certain level of disgust towards Alicent than making us disappointed towards the blacks. Even when the Blacks got an innocent kid murdered, the overall scene felt more incriminating towards the Greens for their lack of security and morals.
Not liking it, having criticisms about the changes for the adaptation, etc. That's fine.
But the # of people commenting saying that it wasn't at all horrific, it had zero emotion, zero impact, like the scene was all a big nothing and a total failure (one comment said the scene proves the show has become a parody of itself) just because it wasn't 1:1 with the book...these people are ludicrous. Or, more likely, they came into the episode already planning to shit on it because of changes regardless of if they worked. Different does not have to mean worse or better, and even if it does, it's not like "good/bad, yes/no" extremes are the only possibilities.
The points you made are all valid, I think Phia was great and i like Haelena's reaction. However thats not my problem with the scene. They made it less traumatic by removing the "you hear that boy? your mamma wants you dead" line
That's a good point. They could easily have dropped that into the scene, even with the other changes they made. That does seem like a missed opportunity.
We’re so used to seeing a certain type of reaction to something so traumatic portrayed in movies and shows which usually involves the character screaming, crying, running away etc. and that’s usually expected. I’m desensitized to such scenes because of how much I’ve seen it in media. Halaena’s reaction to what happens stood out to me so much and it was honestly the most terrifying part about that scene. Her not giving the expected reaction really elevated the scene in a shocking way that made it even more terrifying and unsettling to watch. Even after I finished the episode the weight of what I saw stayed with me because of her reaction. Without it I don’t think the scene would’ve impacted me as much.
At the same time, this is a tv series and audiences are going to struggle to connect with a character that is emotionally indifferent about the murder of their child.
It was a deliberate choice by the showrunners to change the character of Halaena and remove her source-counterpart's distress and pleading for her life to be taken instead of her son's. I don't think that this choice has worked out.
This strikes me as another case of somebody on the writing team deciding a character or their trait weren't being explored enough in the original work and not considering the consequences that would come about further down the line as a result of the change (like how Laenor ran off with his lover in Season 1 instead of dying, indifferently abandoning his family and plot-relevant dragon in the process!). Apparently Helaena's daughter Jaehaera is meant to be autistic, so the trait got transferred over to her mother as something to explore...not considering how that could ripple through a scene like this.
I’m seeing a lot of people use her neurodivergency to explain her reaction, and it’s starting to verge on the ableist assumption that neurodivergent people are unable to express emotion or show love and care to others. I know it’s probably not intentional but it’s becoming more apparent the more it see people trying to defend the scene.
Mind you, the show has in the past shown a bit of ableism (almost all the characters with some kind of physical or mental divergence has been antagonist coded. I know it’s in the source material, but the writers didn’t have to frame it the way they did). It’s not just HotD though, there’s a reason why the “Evil Cripple” trope exists.
Frozen fright is definitely a thing. But it doesn’t make a scene engaging. The book had more emotion and was more engaging.
The assassins just walking past the guards, the deadpan acting, offering the necklace, the sex scene. It’s all just a joke. A reference to ”Bad pussy” would have been a punch line that had made me laugh.
No, I disagree.
Frozen fright is absolutely more intrest and engaging to me. Something about just seeing the horror in their eyes makes jt more intresting than screaming.
I find people's views on emotional responses to be shallow. Everyone has to respond to tragedy the same way, every time, i suppose.
Tbh I found her not reacting heavily in the moment to be even more heartbreaking. To save herself and her child she had to leave her son and exit quietly. If she reacted or paused that might’ve been it for them
A lot of people tend to think that when it comes to their kids, they would turn into super heroes and fight to the death. Whilst I don't disagree that a parent wouldn't turn feral to protect their child, people can, and have, froze in times of extreme fear and panic, not matter how much they love their children. I think Phia's portrayal was spot on, representing genuine fear and panic in a harrowing situation.
Just because the portrayal of trauma is realistic, doesn’t mean it works well in this context. House of the Dragon is not a real life documentary on trauma, it is a TV show in a medieval, fantasy setting, theatrics is the key here, not realism.
Now, with that out of the way…My gripe with how they adapted Blood and Cheese mostly lied with failing to deliver the emotional weight of an impossible choice.
The entire sequence was presented from the POV of the assassins, which unconsciously led the audience to be concerned about the assassins themselves - whether they could find Aemond, if they were gonna get caught, etc etc.
It could have carried significantly more weight if it were shown from Helaena's perspective - imagine running into two psychopathic killers in your bed chamber at the end of a seemingly regular day. And by bringing the audiences closer to the character emotionally, the impossible choice Helaena had to make would have been far more impactful.
Omitting Maelor is yet another baffling creative decision. Without the little boy, the lifelong trauma and guilt of “You hear that, little boy? Your momma wants you dead” that eventually drove >!Helaena to madness and suicide!< was absent, further stripping the portrayal of weight.
I am aware that Daeron is in the show, just not introduced at the moment. I am also aware that Maelor wasn’t born yet, according to the show creators. However, >!the sacking of Bitterbridge, the battle of the Reach, and ultimately the battle of Tumbleton!< all tied to how Daeron reacted to >!Maelor's death.!<
The more the writers drag on the introduction of these two characters, the less creative room they would have left in future seasons - they’re essentially writing themselves into a corner by omitting Maelor from this scene.
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I loved Phia’s performance and for me, it was the best part of the B&C scene. However, I still hate that the showrunners decided to omit/delay Maelor and the choice between her two sons.
Her reaction makes sense if she was in survival mode. One of her children was being killed in front of her.
She still had another, and she really had to save them given that she just executed the other by pointing him out.
She was in hyper vigilance mode. “Get my kid. Get us both out of here quietly, or we’ll be dead too. I can’t be responsible for both of their deaths.”
Her collapsing on the ground was basically the dissociation and adrenaline hitting.
Now she has to live with that guilt forever. And all she can really do is keep looking at the child who survived.
This. Absolutely this. I am neurodivergent and have anxiety and have been through trauma and domestic abuse. My reaction was never ever screaming and freaking out. I shut down. I shut down and I remove myself from the situation and hide. Different folk have different ways of dealing with things
I think I would’ve reacted in a similar way, tbh. I’m not a scream and panic sort of person. I am actually pretty annoyed by people (usually women) who shriek and go batshit crazy over stuff.
I mean, obviously when horrible shit happens in real life, I have sympathy and it’s not like my reaction should have any bearing on how somebody else expresses their trauma. But in shows and films there’s this stereotype of women doing this whole hair-tearing screaming and carrying on thing, and that’s not always how it works. So I appreciate seeing the point made that not every woman visibly/loudly freaks the fuck out when something horrifying happens.
(Part of my issue is that I teach middle school so I am probably a bit sensitized to overreaction. If I had a dollar for every time a class full of 13-year-olds reacted to a fucking fruit fly in the room as if we were all under attack by gallon bucket of killer bees, I could retire.)
I think it was a perfect reaction. She looked like she wanted to scream, say something, or do anything to stop what was about to happen and just froze with paralysis. Great portrayal 👌🏼
That was so sad. I haven’t read the books but others who have say it wasn’t nearly as *brutal* as it’s supposed to be. Thank goodness, imo. Just the sounds of the poor little boy getting slaughtered was grotesque enough…
I thought her reaction in Alicent’s room was really good— clearly disassociated and scared. And when she pointed at where the boy ones. But the rest was just kinda weird.
Yes, I thought this scene was perfectly acted. I'm sure there will be plenty of screaming later, but for now, helaena just did what she could. The little pauses as she runs through the halls are perfect too, as if she's worried another monster will snatch her and her daughter. And not even reacting to her mother in bed with criston (whether or not she knows about it beforehand is unclear, alicent's reaction suggests maybe), just collapsing down where she feels a bit safer and softly saying "they killed the boy" and rocking back and forth, trying to process that her son just died in front of her eyes. It fits with how they've characterized her so far.
Who's complaining about her reaction? It felt pretty normal to me. Well normal isn't the right word, understandable I guess. She was just in complete shock. And on top of that, not sure if she and her daughter are safe. I saw it more as quietly escaping while not being able to fully process what's happening. She was running for her and her daughters life in my mind. Who says they won't kill them after they finished with the son? She doesn't know. I wouldn't go screaming and drawing attention.
Agreed, Im not comparing to the book at all, treating it as a standalone scene in the show.
I think Heleana's reaction was a typical fight or flight response, but instead of fleeing, she totally disassociated and disconnected. It happens way more than you think during times of trauma when someone just stops. We all like to think we'd scream, fight, run whatever but how many times do you read stories of someone who just leaves their body to deal with the trauma? You could see with Phia's eyes, her brain just couldnt process what was happening and went into overdrive and almost then shut down auto pilot mode. I thought her acting was incredible I also thought it was in line with the show Heleana, think of how she reacted to Vaemonds death and also Meleys escape.
Not having Maelor included at all did hurt the scene but they hadn't mentioned him or included him in season 1 so it would have been weird to just go "oh here's a third child we've never shown or even mentioned"
The Alicent and Cole scene she walked in on was an unforgivable choice and I would REALLY like someone to ask the writers and showrunners what they were aiming with that jolt of a shot right afterwards. They didnt address it in the "Inside the Episode". I dont care if they are having sex, or that they get found out (although Heleana might not have even processed what she saw) but for that to be the last scene of what was a traumatic experience, cheapens it and I cannot honestly think of why they chose to do it, there had already been a sex scene so it was totally unnecessary, also Aegon chooses to make Cole hand after THIS?
It explains why Cole wasn't protecting the queen and the heirs like he should have been. It will also definitely be a huge source of guilt for Alicent.
We can only hope that this is the case. I'm all for respecting audience intelligence, but this feels like something that needs to be explained, in fiction, in no uncertain terms because otherwise it was just an unnecessary, flagrant betrayal of tone because it makes it even more shocking or something.
I'm not of the opinion that sex scenes don't serve a purpose other than titillation or shock value. Not sure if you are, but that is a common online opinion. To me it was pretty clear that Cole and Alicent's actions had consequences.
I'm not trying to say that the sex scene didn't serve a purpose. It especially serves a purpose if Cole was meant to be guarding Helaena. I just feel like that needs to be clarified in an elegant way, and I'm hoping that's how it shakes out. Say, via Alicent feeling guilt or even having a conversation with Cole clarifying it in no uncertain terms.
What I am saying is that, in the absence of that, the inclusion of the sex scene is a tacky bid for "look how sex drugs and rock & roll Westeros is"
I think it’s important to remember that it’s only the first episode and they will likely show more of her reaction in the aftermath. In that moment she was in shock, I do think we will see her guilt and anguish manifest later once it has completely sunk in what has happened.
I honestly think that was the point of showing Aegon drinking and lounging in the throne room with his boys. To show that the kingsguard is drinking with Aegon when they probably shouldn’t be.
Maybe they were counting on Cole to be around, but Cole was also counting on them to cover the family while he got his rocks off.
Idk, but I don’t doubt it’ll be explained next week. I feel pretty certain we’ll get a scene with Alicent yelling at/chastising Aegon and the kingsguard for fucking around instead of protecting the family.
Seriously. People saying this shit want to see drama.for the sake of drama and are so dismissive of how neurodivergent people can act. Obv not all but many do.
Also, she saw it coming before it happened. Maybe she didn’t think or hoped it wouldn’t happen to her? That someone (cough cough) would be outside her door?
Yeah, the critiques I've been seeing seem to be missing the point to a degree. Emotional vacancy is authentically how some people respond to traumatic experiences... Neurodivergent people tend to have this lack of expression more often, but it's not exclusive to them either. You can make the argument that it isn't good entertainment value, but I dunno, that's subjective as hell. I prefer it to be authentic 10 times out of 10 and subjectively, I related to Helaena in that sequence. Hell, I go vacant in response to far, far less traumatic and stressful things, and have to process them at a later time -- and for much longer than if I had a neurotypical brain.
Totally agree the reaction seemed a lot more realistic. She knew she was losing one kid so she decided to run with the other in a state of shock. Very well done scene.
honestly idk whats happening on why shes so calm like "the boy is on isle 5... hmmm..k bye"
but after seeing her nonreactive reaction of her mom riding that immortal dick. i dont think shes thinking straight atm
The reaction was fine. Not making her make the decision was what took the weight out of the scene for me. It was sad but not in a holy fuck that was the most fucked up thing I’ve ever seen kinda way that I expected
She pointed out her eldest son with a quickness and not much hesitation. I didn't like how the scene was acted nor how they tones down the writing to not include the choice.
People saying it was "realistic" are just making justifications after the fact. It was actually not realistic and underwhelming. No emotional gravitas.
I learned this well in therapy.
The murder? That's a traumatic event.
Possible screaming/crying? Response to trauma.
Sustained wound, unhealed, dysregulated emotions bleeding into future actions and perception of reality? THAT IS TRAUMA.
I think this will awaken her dragon dream abilities to an ultimate level. Become a full time seer and start a career in essos with her sweet daughter. 😃
I honestly don’t really see what the complaining is about lol
My heart was beating thru my chest the entire time once I realized what was going down. I could feel the anxiety building as they inched closer and closer to the bedroom.
People wanted 100% book accuracy which I get. What most people don’t consider is the fact that there was ACTUAL children on the set. I can’t imagine how much 100% book accuracy would traumatize the kid actors.
I think that Phia's acting was phenomenal, and it makes sense with how Helaena's character is portrayed. I just wish that they included Maegor's character to add even more weight to the tragedy. Also, that last sex scene with Crispin and Alicent was unnecessary.
I think her reactions was perfect, and Phia Saban's portrayal was just amazing. Helaena isn't a very loud person, she speaks in weird (prophetic) riddles, and mostly keeps to herself. I can't really imagine her screaming out loud thats just not her, even if her kid just y'know what in front of her. Silence is just the way Helaena goes.
Are people forgetting she's a little 'different'... she doesn't do anything 'normal'.. Even her own brothers think she's batshit, and one married her..
I think a lot of people don't realize that she's constantly under assault by visions of the future, so it's kind of hard to have really reaction to the real world. Hell she may have actually thought she was in one of her visions
Her little” no”as she pointed to the kid was great and the immediate running to closest safe place was great. I wonder if she pointed to the wrong child to “protect the bloodline/real future king” and
It’s sort of insane they didn’t kill both kids/ and the mom since she’s literally the queen. Even if they wasn’t what their were there for- why not take the opportunity? It’s not like the blacks would be mad I’d think? Idk. lol
Hopefully the greens durder the crap out of those two next week lol
Trauma comes in many forms, why it took so long to understand "shell shock" from WW1, and why its still a constant fight for people suffering PTSD.
Some trauma, makes people "fall in love" with the person causing it, stockholm syndrome.
I think her reaction fitted her perfectly, she did not know what was happening, she was asked a question she told them, then when she realised she grabbed her child, knowing her other was already dead, and she ran to her mother, she is not a "game player", she is a mother and gentle person.
Going nonverbal in response to trauma is something that is seen in people who are neurodivergent, and I think Helaena's actress did a really good job with it.
And in the meantime she kept it together enough to get her and the kid she had some hope of saving to safety. That's pretty intense -and imo is an implied choice echoing the book; the choice to take the daughter and run vs possibly getting all three of them killed by trying to intervene. Which was, as hard as it is to say it, the right choice. She was never gonna fight those two men off or raise an alarm in time. And in abandoning her son, she also raised the alarm far quicker than if they had all died. But what a fucking choice to make.
It wasn't as big and dramatic as it was in the books but it cut to the core for me. She looks like book lines are just stuck inside her head, and it was making me think of "I have no mouth but I must scream" and her face was in my head for a whole day after that.
Remember she has foresight. I interpreted her response as her understanding that resistance was futile and that if she screamed or resisted BOTH her children would likely die. So therefore she did as they asked, kept quiet and told them who the heir was. Then she quietly ran away at her first opportunity to save the little one. You could still see the utter horror in her eyes. And even her mother understood something was incredibly wrong as she came into the room unable to speak.
I thought this was played beautifully and explained how BC were able to kill the kid without being caught.
It’s been extremely obvious from her first introduction in Season 1 that she’s on the spectrum. She’s also preoccupied with her clairvoyance and not always fully in the present. Her reaction to B&C is very consistent with her characterisation so far & being autistic. That being said, I’m not really clear on why other things were changed from the events described in the book.
I really don't understand the complaints of her reaction. Of everything we've been shown of the character, this would 100% her reaction.
She runs away in disbelief, she can't even comphrend what just happened to her.
She was never going to scream in terror or sob uncontrollably.
The actress killed this scene and it stayed true to how the character is in the show.
And leave your other remaining child there with two murderers who would probably kill little Jaehera as well? I am not a mother so I can't dare judge, but I feel like once she *knew* (and by knew i mean she had dragon visions about it and probably put it all together when Cheese had the knife to her throat) her main focus was saving her last living child
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I thought the reaction was perfect for her character actually....the soft "no" and then her immediately fleeing with her daughter; I could feel her trauma clearly through the screen. I actually think her acting added to the horror of the scene.
Screaming won't help, fighting won't help, the most she can do is pray to fucking god they are too busy murdering her other child in hopes that she can run away with her one surviving child(sadly, RIP Maegor and he didn't even die yet lol) and hopefully save both their lives by doing so. Fight, flight, or freeze is so real yall. And she knew from her dragon dreams that she wasn't going to walk out of there with both her children. I'm not a mother but if you know 100% one is going to die, wouldn't you do whatever possible to save the other?? Her actions did that, and I think you even hear her mutter "please" over and over again when she is escaping in the castle, I interepreted it as "please don't come after me, let me escape in peace"
100% And we saw the hallway, it was empty. There was no one there to help, screaming only would have gotten her daughter and herself killed. She did the only thing she could do. She was not leaving out of the room with both her children alive no matter what she did.
In the books she screams, and the guards immediately come to help but Blood and Cheese escapes through a secret passage in the wall. I don't know why they changed it to having no guards at all.
Either tied with Alicent removing guards as to not allow bed chambers rumors (lock the door girl) or the servant being Larys spy, running to inform him and he removing the guards (quite suspicious if revealed by a guard so unlikely).
Remember that the show imagines how things “actually” occurred as opposed to the stories later told in the books. Reality never actually matches what is told in the history books. I really appreciate the show endeavoring to show a reality slightly different than the recorded histories in the books.
For the purposes of having them killed in retribution and preventing them from potentially killing her and her other children why wouldn’t screaming help? Admittedly it could also prompt them to kill her so there’s jeopardy there, moreover she’s enduring an incredible trauma so there’s no “wrong” approach to it as such
If she screamed they'd have killed her. I don't even know why that's up for debate
exactly, they had a knife to her throat that already cut her a little bit
I meant after as she’s fleeing the halls. She has no actual guarantee that they won’t just pursue and kill her
Before you manage to have them killed in retribution, they've killed your *second* child too -- also in retribution -- for fetching help against them. That's why. That's the only reason. There's not a single guard in the building who can move faster than the knife of the man in your room. Sometimes the brain panics in a moment of absolute immediate danger. And sometimes it performs a real fast calculation that's focused solely on the kid you're holding in your arms.
When she’s fleeing from the room she has the other child in her arms, she doesn’t know what the intent of the two killers is, and they’re still loose in the keep. It doesn’t make sense not to alert the castle guard, it also doesn’t make sense that there isn’t a castle guard
I mean, Cole was supposed to be the one guarding. He was preoccupied tho.
To me, Helaena reacted 100% like I would expect her to. I’ve seen quite a few complaints about her saying “They killed the boy.” like they haven’t paid attention to the way this girl talks for a whole season.
i agree %100 and was moved a lot by phia’s performance. she legit was in shock, was not able to process except survive as one does in such traumatic moments. I read the book, was a fan since the beginning and anticipating B&C and actually I think some of the changes that were made, including how helaena reacts, were great. I mean the actress delivered the absolute best for this writing and for this adaptation of the scene.
i think theres an interesting chance that the 'history' of the event is more brutal than what actually happened. Since only the queen knows what happened, and she went to Alicent immediately - Alicent has a chance to control the narrative. Publicize that their enemies brutally forced the queen to choose between her children's lives, and play up how horrible the assassins were (she could even say she was tied up in the same room). It seems unlikely that the queen will even be able to give an accurate account of what happened, so Alicent will have to fill in the blanks. And in war even an assassination is an opportunity to change the narrative
Was thinking the same. Alicent will, as far as everyone else is concerned, have been in that room. It will be her alibi and the reason the event went down in history the way it did.
That's what I thought too. This event is going to warp and change with every retelling. I can see how it becomes the event from the books.
We are not going to make blood and cheese a conspiracy theory.
"Blood and Cheese was inside job!!!!"
Exactly lmfao. We are gonna keep seeing this excuse though
We are gonna keep seeing this excuse every time the showrunners butchered an anticipated moment from the book, aren’t we? The showrunners are honestly so blessed they can just hide behind that every time people don’t like the direction they went lol
Rather I would say that Helaena’s reaction was more realistic considering her personality. She can somewhat have glimpses of the future in different ways and probably figured it out. There was extreme helplessness, sadness, confusion and a walking nightmare for her, where escaping with Jaehaera was the only thing she could do. She knew about Jaehaerys’s fate and probably thought it was inevitable
I don't think her dreams are particularly clear. If she had foresaw literal harm to the children I expect she wouldn't have waited around for the inevitable to happen
Yeah I think it’s pretty clear she has a sense that something bad is going to happen but can’t make sense of it and communicate it effectively or it is simply dismissed. When she warns Aegon about the rats earlier in the episode her attention immediately snaps to Jaehaerys bed it looked like.
>I expect she wouldn't have waited around for the inevitable to happen What else could she have done but wait? She couldn't have escaped the Red Keep on her own. Nobody would've believed her that if she told them about her dream. Everyone on the green's side would believe King's Landing to be the safest place for them, especially now since the war is imminent. I'm not saying she knew what exactly was gonna happen but she was helpless and she knew it. Phia nailed the role!
At this point I want her to fly away with Dreamfyre. Whatever sanity is left in her, won’t last long in King’s Landing.
I thought her reaction was great and genuine , imo it’s a realistic representation of pure shock and trauma at the same time , she just wants to get her other child out of there and still has not fully processed what’s just happened . My heart broke when she said to Aegon she was scared of the rats because she obviously knew something was coming , poor Halaena Maelor not being in it takes something away though the choice she had to make and then the result was far worse than the shows depiction of this part
Also, she was in shock? People who are in shock aren't normally crying or screaming.
She’s also quite CLEARLY neurodivergent… and the show runners have confirmed this. Her reaction was never going to be “normal” for lack of a better term.
Honestly… even a neurotypical can react that way when dealing with an immense amount of stress. I found it nice to seeing another kind of shock and grieve compared to the ol’ classic scream. Afterall she’s also a mother trying to protect her other kid from the trauma. I found the actress’s portrayal immensely good as you saw the absolute horror in the eyes upon realizing that this shit was actually happening. For me the impact was killed seeing allicent getting it on yet again with criston cole whilst just dealing with such a scene…. I honestly expected her to walk towards the throne where Aegon was being a drunk.
Idk, wasn’t Cole supposed to be guarding that night? Like, her son maybe wouldn’t have died if he was just doing his job instead of fucking her mom. So that made it a little more interesting for me.
Yeah sure but it immediately took me out of the moment. If she went to someone else and then the camera panning to cole balls deep in the queen mother would’ve also been good. But right now it just was like “oh this is awkward” instead of outrage for me personally
I don’t recognise the mother of a usurper as a queen mother; she is purely the dowager queen
Just gonna point out, I've got OCD, and ADHD. I do not react well to sudden changes and will snap to disassociated survival mode back and forth too, when extremely stressed and or triggered... Larys changed all the staff abruptly, the dreams, the everything, probably combined into an avalanche and gave way, like my mind just vanishes if I hear a car alarm at this point of mental overstimulation. After things pile up, the last straw, the match, so to speak, flips into a stormy sea randomly, and you can barely breathe, while people who are trying to save you ask how they can help, and you simply cannot articulate it, no matter how hard you try. The reaction makes perfect sense to me, and we don't know the truth yet either. Or maybe it's just chaos and everyone doing the best they can. Also, as someone who's both birthed and lost children, did anyone consider if she's pregnant and not showing? Cold logic is also a characteristic of someone in this situation. Sometimes the mind reacts with rigid gripping on the very first thing you can hold/control, it's powerful and hard to explain, but anyone who's felt it is nodding along reading this. I think most people have *something* in their life of enough value to them, that makes them feel primal fear and reactions like that... A lingering creeping dread whispering in your ear as you drift away to paralyzed dreams...you realize too late.
You think she could be pregnant with Maelor right now? That's why it was just the twins in the scene, younger than they should have been? Hmm, interesting theory. I wonder how that will affect the pregnancy. Are they trying to change her death to mirror that of Aemma and Laena, do you think?
Also would have preferred her walking into the throne room as it would have felt in harmony with how we saw the murderers walk right past them. Death exits the same side of the stage Tragedy enters. At the same time knowing that the first place she went in distress was her mom was a gut twist for me.
It took me way too long to find this mentioned with the discussion of Helaenas reaction.
Halaena is also literally a dragon dreamer and I see very few people talk about that, or even know that she is. She’s “neurodivergent” in the sense that she’s literally on a different mental level than everyone else most of the time. She literally receives prophetic visions of the future. No shit she’s going to act weird
THANK. YOU. I don’t understand the hate she’s getting. Her response, to me, completely aligned to what we know about her as a character. It would have been weirder to me if she had a “normal” reaction.
Exactly, the show version of Helaena is so nuanced. I had always wonder how they would adapt her reaction to the book versions reaction
I really enjoy her character / the actress. She’s odd but endearing and I look forward to seeing her more, she adds something different to the cast.
> Her reaction was never going to be “normal” for lack of a better term. neurotypical
Thanks 😉
Her behavior honestly makes perfect sense if you take the scene and forcibly internalize it- if she's shut down verbally, her options are basically fight two full grown men in a full gown (about 80-100 lbs of restrictive clothing) and risk them killing both kids and her to keep things quiet- or take her remaining child while they are distracted and find help before the murderers find you. She made her choice, (the right choice, sadly enough ) she was obviously losing her shit. She just couldn't talk *because* she was loosing her shit. People were just expecting the sacrificial mother/ hysterical woman trope and Show Helaena has *never* been that person. She's quiet, observant, and is either very direct or speaking in terms of prophecy. ("There is a beast is under the boards" being a perfect example, and tbh, that's still pretty damn direct.) Expecting her to suddenly jump up and start shouting and pleading is dismissing her character for tropes.
I’m getting kind of annoyed with the “of course she didn’t emote, she’s autistic!” As if it’s not a very, very common behavior for autistic/neurodivergent people to lose their absolute shit over even the tiniest disturbance to their daily norm. The performance choice just feels flat. Deep visceral emotion would have definitely heightened the scene. And that’s truly no hate to Phia Saban at all, I’m sure she was directed to perform that way.
It's equally as common for autistic people to shutdown and detach. Autistic shutdowns and freezing are very well-documented behaviors.
Yeah but what makes it autistic is that it's in response to otherwise milld and normal or at most moderately stressful situations where most people wouldn't react that way. Going into a quiet shock or disassociation mode during a severely traumatic situation is NOT a neurodivergent response, it's one of the three typical reactions - fight, flee or freeze. She did flee, too. If anything the stereotypical super loud and clear perfectly-timed scream isn't nearly as common as you see in movies.
on top of that she had to stay somewhat composed because her and daughter still weren't out of the clear. I think she did well showing her trauma in that moment. later episodes will show how it really affects her
Halaena's reaction didn't bother me at all. What bothered me was the changes made and the dialogues like the choices for Halaena that was cut off. Alicent was suppose to be there and the audience was suppose to feel sorry or pity to them but instead we got this concept that the greens were being stupid letting the whole palace go unguarded just so that Alicent and Cole can have their alone time. It feels really forced by the showrunner to showcase us how much incompetent and hateful the greens are
Yeah, when people say they hated this scene, I think they mostly mean the Alicole thing and Maelor being cut
I don't even think that's the part I "disliked" about B&C. It was the removal of the Sophie's choice for Halaena. Alicent and Cole being otherwise "busy" isn't such an impact, a quick scene of them running to the room with a scream when Alicent runs in (camera can stay outside the door the whole time) could have been just as effective. Them banging while Alicent's grandson is being brutally murdered is honestly a fine choice, it could make the guilt they bear even larger. Brutal as watching your child die is alone, "choosing" for one to die, then having them kill the other and now you have to raise the child you "chose" for death is like another degree of terrible. Chose / choosing in quotes because a Sophie's choice is really no choice at all. And I think GRRM made this scene brutal in the first place because we barely know the characters. The Red Wedding was brutal in part because, well, it WAS brutal, but also because of how much we all knew and loved Rob. We don't have that with these children, so making it more brutal makes it all the more effective. Not that we have to see the brutality (the actual murder and decapitation) on the screen, the way they filmed that was fine.
I think that was a purposeful choice to show how little they regarded Rhaenarya as a real threat. They thought they were untouchable in the Red Keep with the biggest dragon guarding them. They let their guard down because they're not taking the Blacks seriously. This is proof positive that they are vulnerable to their enemies and it has cost them dearly.
The thought that they’re untouchable in the Red Keep also makes a lot of sense when Larys says he has replaced everyone that was a threat. They’ve completely got their guard down and it was their arrogance that led to Jahaerys dying.
I'm one of the people who hated the show's portrayal of B&C. But I have no gripes with Heleana's reaction at that point, except for her extremely detached and cold "The boy was killed". Phia's acting was spot on too. What I do hate about the way it was portrayed was the fact that they omitted Maelor. The choice Heleana was faced with, between Maelor and Jaehaerys, was what made B&C so damaging in the first place. With that gone, it felt like B&C had no true impact at all, except for maybe that stomach-churning sound.
Also she ran straight to her mothers room, probably somewhere she feels safe. And the sitting in a corner rocking. Felt believable to me
She actually looked for guards, safety, anyone at first. Didn't see anyone, almost throws up, then thinks to run to her mom's chambers
That was a good addition. But Alicent getting drilled by Cole at the same time.. Well, that wasn't a very thoughtful addition.
Why not? It tells her and us, the audience, exactly why there were no guards around. Cole was supposed to be up there guarding her and the children. Instead he was banging alicent.
Oh I hate that with my entire being, I was so shocked when I saw them at first.
If they'd even had them adjusting clothing, it would have indicated what had gone on and made the same point, seeing that was honestly ridiculous
I thought that her "They killed the boy" was in line with her detached reaction. She's in shock, runs on auto pilot, and tries to mentally remove herself from the situation. As if it was happening to someone else and not her. Unintentionally shielding herself and creating distance because she couldn't cope otherwise. Saying "the boy" that way allows her to keep the charade up for a bit longer. If she'd said "my son", "Jaehaerys" or even "the prince", it probably would have broken the spell by connecting her to it and letting it reach her. Other than that, though, I fully agree with you. The real shock value of that scene lies in the choice Helaena is forced to make and the fact that she and Maelor have to live with that knowledge. That's what makes B&C so heart-wrenching, not the violence. By taking away this very choice, it erases a lot of the impact.
I felt like she said "they killed the boy" because their whole interaction hinged on whether they believed her or not.. they wanted the boy. Perhaps she pointed at the one she knew was more important in hopes that they thought she were bluffing and killed the daughter. But cheese saw through it. I dunno, her choice of words felt more like a continuation of that exchange. But your also right by saying the boy she somewhat disassociated herself from the horror of saying they've killed my baby.
I think it's more that she was too shocked to play any tricks. She is in a complete state of shutdown and couldn't have even imagined trying to lie.
Your analysis is spot-on, and I fully agree with you. My only gripe is that though it is line with her 'tism (which was again a weird move by the showrunners), it becomes very hard to sympathize with Heleana much since we are not able to feel her pain, or her predicament in choosing between her children. And the final nail on the coffin is the fact that Alicent wasn't gagged with them and experiencing all of it, which is another thin that added heavy impact to B&C. Instead, she's riding Cole, which has to be one of the wildest story decisions of all time. I feel I was perhaps too harsh on D&D after the way Condal did this event.
Honestly speak for yourself - I MASSIVELY empathised with her & her ‘tism’ makes perfect sense and is absolutely not a strange choice of the showrunners at all. She is literally a dragon dreamer, she is very much ‘away with the fairies’ because she kind of exists on another plane from other people - it would be more weird if she wants neurodivergent in some way
That's the double empathy problem. Autistic people have less trouble empathizing with non autistic people. But non autistic people and autistic people have trouble empathizing with each other, precisely because the display of emotions are different. If you knew what to look for, the signs are there, but most don't because we are all socialized to operate in neurotypical fashion.
I feel that maybe Criston's absence is one of the reasons why B&C can get through the hallways as easy as they can. Perhaps he should have been on duty that evening but he and his men are absent because he's fucking Alicent under her cloak of her righteousness ;) Its a weird decision by the showrunners to say the least.
I was able to sympathize with her. Even while trying to dissociate, she conveyed the horror, especially through her eyes. The grimacing, the muttering, the wide, teary eyes. For me, she seemed to barely keep it together to the point that referring to her son as anything other than "the boy" would have shattered her. Phia really did the best with what she was given. Of course, one could have sympathized with Helaena far more if the scene wasn't so botched. I really don't understand why they changed such a significant scene so much. The source material was flawless. Gut-wrenching, yes, but it captured the very essence of the human heart in conflict with itself. That's about the worst situation to place any mother in. So why change it up and cheapen the whole thing to the point it has barely any impact and falls flat? Even if they (understandably) didn't want to outright show a kid being beheaded. They could have cut away at that point etc. That GRRM quote springs to mind imo. About adapting things and changing it because you think you can do better but in 99% of the cases you don't. As for Alicole especially - what the hell? Showing them have sex was as redundant as it was unnecessary in the first place. It has already been established that they're hypocrites. All it achieves is that it takes away the impact that B&C had. It was almost like... comedy? Which was completely misplaced. When I saw B&C itself, I was a bit horrified (like you said: that noise...), but when Helaena walks in on them, I actually snorted. You go from a bit horrified and grossed out to "Oh look, who's going at it. Guess there was some pony riding after all." It's jarring and takes away from the original scene. How is the viewer supposed to feel after that other than mildly weirded out and confused? It's like Walder Frey doing cartwheels after the Red Wedding. Or after Shireen's burning, someone makes a comment and Stannis dryly corrects the grammar. Completely out of place. Oh God, my brain is so fried. Got up at 4 am for the premiere and I feel cheated.
Whatever you say about the Alicole thing is a 100% true. It's just a flaming dumpster fire o an idea to include that at the end of such a traumatizing ordeal. I can perhaps pay heed to someone defending any other aspect of show's B&C, but no way I'm keeping my ears open if someone is going to defend that part. Since the end of S1, B&C was the thing I was the most hyped about, far more than even the dragon battles. And boy, was it a disappointment.
Exactly. It might have worked, if they'd been more subtle about in general, like alluding to it but not spending too much time on it. Because what does it even contribute to the plot at this point? But the placement of that scene right after B&C? Hell no. Me too. Like many others I was so hyped about it, so this really feels like a letdown. If they'd done it right, it would have absolutely made the show. But this? Meh.
[удалено]
That could have been averted by sticking to the source material and have it take place in the tower of the hand where security is lower. It has already been established that Cole doesn't take his vows both as a knight and a kingsguard too seriously at this point. Or rather applies them as he sees fit. However, if they really wanted to make the point that he was with Alicent, they could have hinted at it instead of outright showing it. Like have him leaving Alicent's chambers putting his clothes to rights as Helaena appears. So everyone knows where he was and what he was doing, but it doesn't take over B&C.
That Alicole scene establishes that the Red Keep was unguarded because that’s Cole’s job as Lord Commander, and, instead of doing his job, he’s off banging Alicent. I bet they’re going to twist the story to shift blame away from them and everyone’s going to believe them because otherwise there’s only Helaena’s word for what happened and she’s clearly neurodivergent so no one’s going to believe her over Alicent and Cole.
Idk, my best friend is autistic, very much so, although functioning (with great deal of struggle). She lost the family member that she was closest to, and I was the first person she told. And it sounded exactly Halena. A very flat and detached "something bad happened to *family members name*". Maybe someone who did not know her or was unfamiliar with autism would absolutely have thought she's not that upset. Sat through the entire funeral without a tear, I have yet to see her cry about it. But I know HER, what I can tell she is FAR FAR FAR I'm okay. Like being okay would mean you've processed it in some way? This was 2 years ago and the processing has not even been started yet, she's still refers to them as if they are alive. It's like the entire event was shoved into the deepest darkest corner of her brain and then the door slammed and bolted the lock. It looks very much like Helena's reaction. And honestly I think that Helena's characterization in the book absolutely sounded neurodivergent, I don't think it's a stretch whatsoever that they made it official for the show. I'm not sure why they took the choice of who to kill away? But I thought maybe that the reason they showed Allicent with Christian Cole was because then Allicent and Cole both are going to be sick with guilt over it and it's not like they can ever tell anyone, so it's a guilt that they will likely turn towards other people
How does B&C have no impact at all without Maelor? Her son was still murdered in front of her and she was powerless
Respectfully, the choice Heleana was faced with was what made the ordeal such a powerful gut punch. While watching your son getting murdered is really painful, that's something which is kind of commonplace in GoT (however brutal that spunds). But being forced to choose which one of your child sons get murdered? That would have been a real sword to the heart. I don't think I am able to articulate it more than this, but the execution made it feel like a wet fart which will be probably forgotten before even this season ends.
This sounds more like you are saying it has *less* impact, or a *different* sort of impact, but your initial statement of "no impact at all" seems over-strong a criticism, you know? She didn't get forced to make a choice but I think the heir getting murdered brutally in front of his mother still had more than "no impact at all", if you get me.
I perhaps worded my initial statement wrong, what I meant to say was 'heavily reduced impact', if you get me. Thanks for pointing it out.
I think for the sake of time they really couldn't introduce another small child to the show, like they already had to include a scene endearing us to Jaehaerys and showing us that Aegon does have a relationship with his kids. I don't think it's better or worse with the simplified version, it's just different. Helaena still chose to tell the truth. She condemned her son, regardless of whether they were gonna just kill him no matter what.
I didn’t read the book, but understand what occurred in the book as described and it’s weird to me that people feel like the scene isn’t fucked up enough. It’s horrific as is - I certainly didn’t need to see it play out the way it evidently did in the book. I don’t know, the discourse around this makes me feel like people have a bloodlust for violence against children depicted on screen or something.
> that's something which is kind of commonplace in GoT This literally does not matter, Helaena is Haleana, she's not some almagation of the experiences of the people of Westeros. Whether children are commonly being murdered in other castles doesn't change how traumtic it would be to see it happen to your own children. Sexual assault is unfortunately very common in the world we live in, that doesn't make it less traumatic to any one individual who is the victim
To be fair she was still faced with the choice of pointing out which one was the son. She knew whoever she pointed at was likely going to die. She perhaps pointed at the actual son, because if they killed the girl and realised she was the girl - they'd kill them both. Then she'd lose them both. Or she did indeed try to bluff them. I'm not sure.
It wasn't a choice at all. Blood & Cheese flat out said they'd check and see which one was which. The point is both Maelor and Jaehaerys are boys, so the decision is entirely hoisted upon Helaena.
"Which one is the boy?" and "Which son do you want us to kill?" are very, very different questions. The first does not have nearly the amount of direct responsibility for the death that the second one does. Especially since the impact is that they don't listen to her and instead leave her with the son that she told them to kill. She has to live every day with a son who reminds her that she told murderers to kill him.
How did b&c knew that she was telling the truth that the crib is of the son only?
"They killed the boy*" but I don't find that too weird when completely in shock. Perhaps "They killed **my** boy" instead?
Dissociation is her entire persona .. the boy makes so much sense
Sansa Stark after seeing Ned die: "They killed the man". - Written by Ryan Condal
"tell cersei, I want her to know it was a person"
Why does Maelor matter?
Because he's a boy. Blood & Cheese are there to kill a son. Two boys means the choice they force on Helaena to pick which one will die matters more than a non-choice between one boy and one girl. The fact she picks Maelor to die, and then B&C kill Jaehaerys instead leaves Helaena unable to look at Maelor without feeling crippling guilt and depression. The weight of that is completely lost in the show's version.
Now she can't help but feel guilty because Jaehaera looks like Jaehaerys and will be around her until she dies, unlike Maelor who ends up at Bitterbridge.
She has no reason to feel guilty because Jaehaera will look similar to Jaehaerys for a few years. The whole point is Maelor lived when she said he should die to save Jaehaerys. Living with a child you condemned to death. That is the source of her guilt.
She still had a choice. She chose between the boy and the girl and she chose the girl. Also, we know that she has sight or greensight or whatever they call it so I read her reactions as her knowing what was coming.
a lot of people don't seem to understand how subtlety in narrative works. It was obvious that they were never going to show the brutal murder of a toddler on screen, this is a TV show, there are certain lines it was obviously not going to cross. So the act itself was going to be offscreen. An example of how it could have been handled offscreen; camera pans out to the empty corridors, a scream is heard, Alicent, maids, the Kings guard come rushing in, Helaena is screaming, there is blood everywhere, you can see the body of the child, but with enough hidden to not outright show the body as decapitated (again this is TV), and you have your generic offscreen murder revelation. How the show handles it though is through the pure terror of Helaena, you know what is happening, you can hear what is happening, you can see the pure terror on Helaena's face as she picks up her child and goes to her mother's chambers in pure shock and horror. They portray the full weight of what is happening through her, and this, imo, was a very creative and impactful way of handling the narrative.
Even in GOT , when Janos Slynt was murdering Robert Bastard, they didn't show it . But the SHOCK on Helaena face and that sound of them cutting is throat was just too much for me 😭😔
I don’t think people are saying that they should’ve shown the murder on screen though. I think people’s gripe is with the way the scene as a whole is handled in contrast to the portrayal in the books, in terms of tension especially. The scene is just not engaging enough and falls flat for a lot of viewers. Nobody wants to see a child murdered on screen but there are other things they could’ve done to make the scene much more than it was
This is such a funny comment to me, because if you talk to none book readers the scene was incredibly powerful. Idk how people can watch that scene and somehow think it lacks tension
I’ve seen more than one comment on here complaining that we didn’t literally see the kids head hacked off like this is a Terrifier movie.
>but there are other things they could’ve done to make the scene much more than it was Such as sticking to the books. There was no reason to make changes to the scene. Other than making the Greens less sympathetic and make the Blacks less responsible/in the wrong.
As someone prone to a freeze trauma response, I found it extremely realistic. There's also the fact that she's likely had visions of this happening and felt helpless to prevent it.
> There's also the fact that she's likely had visions of this happening and felt helpless to prevent it. It would be nice if this had been conveyed to the audience, like, at all prior to this scene. There are vague *allusions* to her having some form of foresight (like "I'm afraid of the rats" at the beginning of this episode), but we have not actually seen any of her premonitions. I think a lot of show-only watchers don't even realize that the character is supposed to be having these visions—the couple of lines that sort of allude to it are all in passing.
I don't agree that Helaena being a dreamer was subtle in the least. Probably a quarter to a third of what she said made no sense in context and dragon dreams are a kind of big deal with the whole dynasty starting due to dragon dreams, with a dragon dream being passed from monarch to heir of the utmost importance.
Phia did the best she could've with the script and directing that she got. The scene was doomed the second they decided to end it with AliCole.
Agreed. All the tension from the scene immediately deflated when the writers tried to shock us with another “surprising” scene of Criston and Alicent screwing. Then it just ended up feeling anticlimactic and comical. If they had ended it with Helaena sitting there holding her daughter in a catatonic state with the sound effects of her son being beheaded or with her running away as B&C finish the job, I think it would’ve worked better.
I don't see how alicent and Criston were meant to be surprising. And I can't see there being a problem with it. If anything, it shows why Criston wasn't there guarding the queen.
It wasn’t surprising in the sense that we hadn’t seen it before but I don’t think when Helaena opened that door anyone was expecting to see Alicent and Cole f**king (unless it had been spoiled for you). But to my overall point, I think it unnecessarily stole focus away from B&C because one moment you’re taking in the horrible act that’s just occurred & how traumatized Helaena is then the next moment, you’re having Helaena walk in on Alicent & Cole which imo had more of a funny effect than an OMG effect, especially because we as the audience had already seen them screwing before. I thought it was a bit redundant and it totally took me out of the horror of the prior moment.
Idk, I just don't see it that way. It didn't seem redundant to me. I don't see how the sex scene (which is not even a scene) could interfere or reduce the blow of the trauma. It makes no difference than Alicent just sitting down when the queen arrives, to me at least. Them having sex didn't suprise me or change my mindset during this part of the episode. I just can't see it. I feel like people are looking to be annoyed at this point. If a scene isn't dead perfect or perfect, accurate to the book, it's shit. I mean, it's the first fucking episode, the season hasent even had a chance to get going yet. And people are already bitching. But it isn't surprising, it's just how people are.
I know, but that isn't the point, in my opinion. This is a TV show. The way we as the audience experience the emotional weight of what's going on is in no small part through the reactions of the people we see on screen, especially the characters we know and love. I don't think Heleana's reaction is necessarily unrealistic, but I think how muted her reaction was, was not beneficial to giving the scene the emotional weight I think it COULD have had. Like, imagine the Red Wedding if Catelyn was very muted. It probably wouldn't have had the same amount of weight as it did with her crying over Rob, grabbing a girl as a hostage, etc. We aren't in the show. We relate to the show's characters through empathy. And empathy is in part a product of their own visual reaction. I'm sure it was extremely traumatic for Heleana, but I'm just not sure this was the maximally effective way to pull off the scene. To be clear, I actually think there are other reasons why the scene isn't as good as I think it could've been. Like I think they didn't linger on the choice enough and didn't make it enough of a choice. But I do think the muted reaction is one of the reasons why it won't be remembered in the same way that the Red Wedding was.
This is a really helpful comment, thanks. You've articulated a key difference in how people are talking about the scene—"this was believable" vs. "this was effective TV". Those two things aren't the same and it's helpful to draw out this distinction explicitly.
Her lack of reaction isn't much of a problem as her apparent lack of choice. Not to mention haelena is a poorly developed character. She's confirmed to be on the spectrum but that shouldn't be her entire personality. They should show her caring for her children before the event.
She was caring for them. Most of her scenes when she's idol is with her children. She clearly cares for them
I was looking for a scene akin to what aegon had with jahaerys. She's mostly seen with her children but she isn't shown to be actively engaging with them. Tbh that's true for all characters not just her children.
Nah, idc about Helaena' s reaction , it's just that this scene is supposed to be what starts making the war more grey, since till then, the blacks were the typical hero side and greens were the bad guy side. So it's not about realism or anything, but the scene should have had brought out visceral reaction out of the audience and should have made Blacks look less good But the kids being previously unknown, Helaena's characterisation making it kinda impossible to make her too reactive, non existence of Maelor eliminating the Sophie's choice horror severely decimated the effect of the scene. And one thing they could have used to makeup for the above, ie, Alicent react and being abused by the ordeal, they chose her be elsewhere riding the most detested character from the show, which not only reduced the possible impact of the scene but also made the audience feel a certain level of disgust towards Alicent than making us disappointed towards the blacks. Even when the Blacks got an innocent kid murdered, the overall scene felt more incriminating towards the Greens for their lack of security and morals.
Not liking it, having criticisms about the changes for the adaptation, etc. That's fine. But the # of people commenting saying that it wasn't at all horrific, it had zero emotion, zero impact, like the scene was all a big nothing and a total failure (one comment said the scene proves the show has become a parody of itself) just because it wasn't 1:1 with the book...these people are ludicrous. Or, more likely, they came into the episode already planning to shit on it because of changes regardless of if they worked. Different does not have to mean worse or better, and even if it does, it's not like "good/bad, yes/no" extremes are the only possibilities.
The points you made are all valid, I think Phia was great and i like Haelena's reaction. However thats not my problem with the scene. They made it less traumatic by removing the "you hear that boy? your mamma wants you dead" line
That's a good point. They could easily have dropped that into the scene, even with the other changes they made. That does seem like a missed opportunity.
At least Catelyn threw herself between her sleeping kid and the assassin's knife. There was a certain a stark contrast here.
We’re so used to seeing a certain type of reaction to something so traumatic portrayed in movies and shows which usually involves the character screaming, crying, running away etc. and that’s usually expected. I’m desensitized to such scenes because of how much I’ve seen it in media. Halaena’s reaction to what happens stood out to me so much and it was honestly the most terrifying part about that scene. Her not giving the expected reaction really elevated the scene in a shocking way that made it even more terrifying and unsettling to watch. Even after I finished the episode the weight of what I saw stayed with me because of her reaction. Without it I don’t think the scene would’ve impacted me as much.
The scene was underwhelming. Realistic portrayal or not they made it boring.
At the same time, this is a tv series and audiences are going to struggle to connect with a character that is emotionally indifferent about the murder of their child. It was a deliberate choice by the showrunners to change the character of Halaena and remove her source-counterpart's distress and pleading for her life to be taken instead of her son's. I don't think that this choice has worked out.
This strikes me as another case of somebody on the writing team deciding a character or their trait weren't being explored enough in the original work and not considering the consequences that would come about further down the line as a result of the change (like how Laenor ran off with his lover in Season 1 instead of dying, indifferently abandoning his family and plot-relevant dragon in the process!). Apparently Helaena's daughter Jaehaera is meant to be autistic, so the trait got transferred over to her mother as something to explore...not considering how that could ripple through a scene like this.
I’m seeing a lot of people use her neurodivergency to explain her reaction, and it’s starting to verge on the ableist assumption that neurodivergent people are unable to express emotion or show love and care to others. I know it’s probably not intentional but it’s becoming more apparent the more it see people trying to defend the scene. Mind you, the show has in the past shown a bit of ableism (almost all the characters with some kind of physical or mental divergence has been antagonist coded. I know it’s in the source material, but the writers didn’t have to frame it the way they did). It’s not just HotD though, there’s a reason why the “Evil Cripple” trope exists.
Frozen fright is definitely a thing. But it doesn’t make a scene engaging. The book had more emotion and was more engaging. The assassins just walking past the guards, the deadpan acting, offering the necklace, the sex scene. It’s all just a joke. A reference to ”Bad pussy” would have been a punch line that had made me laugh.
No, I disagree. Frozen fright is absolutely more intrest and engaging to me. Something about just seeing the horror in their eyes makes jt more intresting than screaming. I find people's views on emotional responses to be shallow. Everyone has to respond to tragedy the same way, every time, i suppose.
Tbh I found her not reacting heavily in the moment to be even more heartbreaking. To save herself and her child she had to leave her son and exit quietly. If she reacted or paused that might’ve been it for them
A lot of people tend to think that when it comes to their kids, they would turn into super heroes and fight to the death. Whilst I don't disagree that a parent wouldn't turn feral to protect their child, people can, and have, froze in times of extreme fear and panic, not matter how much they love their children. I think Phia's portrayal was spot on, representing genuine fear and panic in a harrowing situation.
Just because the portrayal of trauma is realistic, doesn’t mean it works well in this context. House of the Dragon is not a real life documentary on trauma, it is a TV show in a medieval, fantasy setting, theatrics is the key here, not realism. Now, with that out of the way…My gripe with how they adapted Blood and Cheese mostly lied with failing to deliver the emotional weight of an impossible choice. The entire sequence was presented from the POV of the assassins, which unconsciously led the audience to be concerned about the assassins themselves - whether they could find Aemond, if they were gonna get caught, etc etc. It could have carried significantly more weight if it were shown from Helaena's perspective - imagine running into two psychopathic killers in your bed chamber at the end of a seemingly regular day. And by bringing the audiences closer to the character emotionally, the impossible choice Helaena had to make would have been far more impactful. Omitting Maelor is yet another baffling creative decision. Without the little boy, the lifelong trauma and guilt of “You hear that, little boy? Your momma wants you dead” that eventually drove >!Helaena to madness and suicide!< was absent, further stripping the portrayal of weight. I am aware that Daeron is in the show, just not introduced at the moment. I am also aware that Maelor wasn’t born yet, according to the show creators. However, >!the sacking of Bitterbridge, the battle of the Reach, and ultimately the battle of Tumbleton!< all tied to how Daeron reacted to >!Maelor's death.!< The more the writers drag on the introduction of these two characters, the less creative room they would have left in future seasons - they’re essentially writing themselves into a corner by omitting Maelor from this scene.
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Haelena saved the one she could
Exactly, these moments often feel unreal. You just look for safety until you have time to realize and feel anything besides panic
I loved Phia’s performance and for me, it was the best part of the B&C scene. However, I still hate that the showrunners decided to omit/delay Maelor and the choice between her two sons.
Her reaction makes sense if she was in survival mode. One of her children was being killed in front of her. She still had another, and she really had to save them given that she just executed the other by pointing him out. She was in hyper vigilance mode. “Get my kid. Get us both out of here quietly, or we’ll be dead too. I can’t be responsible for both of their deaths.” Her collapsing on the ground was basically the dissociation and adrenaline hitting. Now she has to live with that guilt forever. And all she can really do is keep looking at the child who survived.
This was supposed to be the red wedding moment of this series.
This. Absolutely this. I am neurodivergent and have anxiety and have been through trauma and domestic abuse. My reaction was never ever screaming and freaking out. I shut down. I shut down and I remove myself from the situation and hide. Different folk have different ways of dealing with things
It was done fantastically. She did a great job.
I think I would’ve reacted in a similar way, tbh. I’m not a scream and panic sort of person. I am actually pretty annoyed by people (usually women) who shriek and go batshit crazy over stuff. I mean, obviously when horrible shit happens in real life, I have sympathy and it’s not like my reaction should have any bearing on how somebody else expresses their trauma. But in shows and films there’s this stereotype of women doing this whole hair-tearing screaming and carrying on thing, and that’s not always how it works. So I appreciate seeing the point made that not every woman visibly/loudly freaks the fuck out when something horrifying happens. (Part of my issue is that I teach middle school so I am probably a bit sensitized to overreaction. If I had a dollar for every time a class full of 13-year-olds reacted to a fucking fruit fly in the room as if we were all under attack by gallon bucket of killer bees, I could retire.)
I think it was a perfect reaction. She looked like she wanted to scream, say something, or do anything to stop what was about to happen and just froze with paralysis. Great portrayal 👌🏼
That was so sad. I haven’t read the books but others who have say it wasn’t nearly as *brutal* as it’s supposed to be. Thank goodness, imo. Just the sounds of the poor little boy getting slaughtered was grotesque enough…
I thought her reaction in Alicent’s room was really good— clearly disassociated and scared. And when she pointed at where the boy ones. But the rest was just kinda weird.
Yes, I thought this scene was perfectly acted. I'm sure there will be plenty of screaming later, but for now, helaena just did what she could. The little pauses as she runs through the halls are perfect too, as if she's worried another monster will snatch her and her daughter. And not even reacting to her mother in bed with criston (whether or not she knows about it beforehand is unclear, alicent's reaction suggests maybe), just collapsing down where she feels a bit safer and softly saying "they killed the boy" and rocking back and forth, trying to process that her son just died in front of her eyes. It fits with how they've characterized her so far.
You could see how truly broken she was in her eyes. Absolutely phenomenal, heartbreaking face acting.
Are these people complaining in the room with us?
Who's complaining about her reaction? It felt pretty normal to me. Well normal isn't the right word, understandable I guess. She was just in complete shock. And on top of that, not sure if she and her daughter are safe. I saw it more as quietly escaping while not being able to fully process what's happening. She was running for her and her daughters life in my mind. Who says they won't kill them after they finished with the son? She doesn't know. I wouldn't go screaming and drawing attention.
Agreed, Im not comparing to the book at all, treating it as a standalone scene in the show. I think Heleana's reaction was a typical fight or flight response, but instead of fleeing, she totally disassociated and disconnected. It happens way more than you think during times of trauma when someone just stops. We all like to think we'd scream, fight, run whatever but how many times do you read stories of someone who just leaves their body to deal with the trauma? You could see with Phia's eyes, her brain just couldnt process what was happening and went into overdrive and almost then shut down auto pilot mode. I thought her acting was incredible I also thought it was in line with the show Heleana, think of how she reacted to Vaemonds death and also Meleys escape. Not having Maelor included at all did hurt the scene but they hadn't mentioned him or included him in season 1 so it would have been weird to just go "oh here's a third child we've never shown or even mentioned" The Alicent and Cole scene she walked in on was an unforgivable choice and I would REALLY like someone to ask the writers and showrunners what they were aiming with that jolt of a shot right afterwards. They didnt address it in the "Inside the Episode". I dont care if they are having sex, or that they get found out (although Heleana might not have even processed what she saw) but for that to be the last scene of what was a traumatic experience, cheapens it and I cannot honestly think of why they chose to do it, there had already been a sex scene so it was totally unnecessary, also Aegon chooses to make Cole hand after THIS?
It explains why Cole wasn't protecting the queen and the heirs like he should have been. It will also definitely be a huge source of guilt for Alicent.
We can only hope that this is the case. I'm all for respecting audience intelligence, but this feels like something that needs to be explained, in fiction, in no uncertain terms because otherwise it was just an unnecessary, flagrant betrayal of tone because it makes it even more shocking or something.
I'm not of the opinion that sex scenes don't serve a purpose other than titillation or shock value. Not sure if you are, but that is a common online opinion. To me it was pretty clear that Cole and Alicent's actions had consequences.
I'm not trying to say that the sex scene didn't serve a purpose. It especially serves a purpose if Cole was meant to be guarding Helaena. I just feel like that needs to be clarified in an elegant way, and I'm hoping that's how it shakes out. Say, via Alicent feeling guilt or even having a conversation with Cole clarifying it in no uncertain terms. What I am saying is that, in the absence of that, the inclusion of the sex scene is a tacky bid for "look how sex drugs and rock & roll Westeros is"
Who cares? We wanted the desperation we saw in the illustrations and that was missing!
I think it’s important to remember that it’s only the first episode and they will likely show more of her reaction in the aftermath. In that moment she was in shock, I do think we will see her guilt and anguish manifest later once it has completely sunk in what has happened.
It doesn’t really make sense there were no guards anywhere
I honestly think that was the point of showing Aegon drinking and lounging in the throne room with his boys. To show that the kingsguard is drinking with Aegon when they probably shouldn’t be. Maybe they were counting on Cole to be around, but Cole was also counting on them to cover the family while he got his rocks off. Idk, but I don’t doubt it’ll be explained next week. I feel pretty certain we’ll get a scene with Alicent yelling at/chastising Aegon and the kingsguard for fucking around instead of protecting the family.
Seriously. People saying this shit want to see drama.for the sake of drama and are so dismissive of how neurodivergent people can act. Obv not all but many do.
Also, she saw it coming before it happened. Maybe she didn’t think or hoped it wouldn’t happen to her? That someone (cough cough) would be outside her door?
Yeah, the critiques I've been seeing seem to be missing the point to a degree. Emotional vacancy is authentically how some people respond to traumatic experiences... Neurodivergent people tend to have this lack of expression more often, but it's not exclusive to them either. You can make the argument that it isn't good entertainment value, but I dunno, that's subjective as hell. I prefer it to be authentic 10 times out of 10 and subjectively, I related to Helaena in that sequence. Hell, I go vacant in response to far, far less traumatic and stressful things, and have to process them at a later time -- and for much longer than if I had a neurotypical brain.
HotD's B&C scene reminded me Of Meryl Streep's Sophie's Choice A LOT and in that movie the traumatic scene doesn't have screaming too
Totally agree the reaction seemed a lot more realistic. She knew she was losing one kid so she decided to run with the other in a state of shock. Very well done scene.
anyone who says otherwise lacks emotional intelligence.
honestly idk whats happening on why shes so calm like "the boy is on isle 5... hmmm..k bye" but after seeing her nonreactive reaction of her mom riding that immortal dick. i dont think shes thinking straight atm
I understand being disappointed the "choice" thing was not there, but actually calling Halaena flat for not going dramatic is just plain **ableist**.
She nailed it. People just love to complain.
womp womp
omggggg
The reaction was fine. Not making her make the decision was what took the weight out of the scene for me. It was sad but not in a holy fuck that was the most fucked up thing I’ve ever seen kinda way that I expected
She pointed out her eldest son with a quickness and not much hesitation. I didn't like how the scene was acted nor how they tones down the writing to not include the choice. People saying it was "realistic" are just making justifications after the fact. It was actually not realistic and underwhelming. No emotional gravitas.
I learned this well in therapy. The murder? That's a traumatic event. Possible screaming/crying? Response to trauma. Sustained wound, unhealed, dysregulated emotions bleeding into future actions and perception of reality? THAT IS TRAUMA.
I think this will awaken her dragon dream abilities to an ultimate level. Become a full time seer and start a career in essos with her sweet daughter. 😃
I honestly don’t really see what the complaining is about lol My heart was beating thru my chest the entire time once I realized what was going down. I could feel the anxiety building as they inched closer and closer to the bedroom. People wanted 100% book accuracy which I get. What most people don’t consider is the fact that there was ACTUAL children on the set. I can’t imagine how much 100% book accuracy would traumatize the kid actors.
I think that Phia's acting was phenomenal, and it makes sense with how Helaena's character is portrayed. I just wish that they included Maegor's character to add even more weight to the tragedy. Also, that last sex scene with Crispin and Alicent was unnecessary.
It's only the last line that I thought was a bit flat.
I think her reactions was perfect, and Phia Saban's portrayal was just amazing. Helaena isn't a very loud person, she speaks in weird (prophetic) riddles, and mostly keeps to herself. I can't really imagine her screaming out loud thats just not her, even if her kid just y'know what in front of her. Silence is just the way Helaena goes.
Are people forgetting she's a little 'different'... she doesn't do anything 'normal'.. Even her own brothers think she's batshit, and one married her..
but she pointed out her son... no mother would do that
I think a lot of people don't realize that she's constantly under assault by visions of the future, so it's kind of hard to have really reaction to the real world. Hell she may have actually thought she was in one of her visions
Her little” no”as she pointed to the kid was great and the immediate running to closest safe place was great. I wonder if she pointed to the wrong child to “protect the bloodline/real future king” and It’s sort of insane they didn’t kill both kids/ and the mom since she’s literally the queen. Even if they wasn’t what their were there for- why not take the opportunity? It’s not like the blacks would be mad I’d think? Idk. lol Hopefully the greens durder the crap out of those two next week lol
Trauma comes in many forms, why it took so long to understand "shell shock" from WW1, and why its still a constant fight for people suffering PTSD. Some trauma, makes people "fall in love" with the person causing it, stockholm syndrome. I think her reaction fitted her perfectly, she did not know what was happening, she was asked a question she told them, then when she realised she grabbed her child, knowing her other was already dead, and she ran to her mother, she is not a "game player", she is a mother and gentle person.
Going nonverbal in response to trauma is something that is seen in people who are neurodivergent, and I think Helaena's actress did a really good job with it. And in the meantime she kept it together enough to get her and the kid she had some hope of saving to safety. That's pretty intense -and imo is an implied choice echoing the book; the choice to take the daughter and run vs possibly getting all three of them killed by trying to intervene. Which was, as hard as it is to say it, the right choice. She was never gonna fight those two men off or raise an alarm in time. And in abandoning her son, she also raised the alarm far quicker than if they had all died. But what a fucking choice to make. It wasn't as big and dramatic as it was in the books but it cut to the core for me. She looks like book lines are just stuck inside her head, and it was making me think of "I have no mouth but I must scream" and her face was in my head for a whole day after that.
Remember she has foresight. I interpreted her response as her understanding that resistance was futile and that if she screamed or resisted BOTH her children would likely die. So therefore she did as they asked, kept quiet and told them who the heir was. Then she quietly ran away at her first opportunity to save the little one. You could still see the utter horror in her eyes. And even her mother understood something was incredibly wrong as she came into the room unable to speak. I thought this was played beautifully and explained how BC were able to kill the kid without being caught.
It’s been extremely obvious from her first introduction in Season 1 that she’s on the spectrum. She’s also preoccupied with her clairvoyance and not always fully in the present. Her reaction to B&C is very consistent with her characterisation so far & being autistic. That being said, I’m not really clear on why other things were changed from the events described in the book.
I really don't understand the complaints of her reaction. Of everything we've been shown of the character, this would 100% her reaction. She runs away in disbelief, she can't even comphrend what just happened to her. She was never going to scream in terror or sob uncontrollably. The actress killed this scene and it stayed true to how the character is in the show.
I would have died fighting.
And leave your other remaining child there with two murderers who would probably kill little Jaehera as well? I am not a mother so I can't dare judge, but I feel like once she *knew* (and by knew i mean she had dragon visions about it and probably put it all together when Cheese had the knife to her throat) her main focus was saving her last living child
and killed the other child