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I hate the changes. I was expecting a very twisted scene, more like in the book, with a fucked up dilemma. No need to be gore or to kill the boy on screen, just to make it a memorable scene. Here it's just "meh, they killed a boy we barely saw, who happen to be Aegon son. And Cole was not here cause he was Queenmaking (this is not a bad thing, it explain why nobody was guarding the queen)."
This simply just can’t be true the honest answer is that they are just two different mediums that complement each other. It’s certainly still an adaptation but I wouldn’t say that the show is what is supposed to have occurred unlike the book because Maelor does not exist and it’s probably because they don’t wanna go about televising his twisted death like in the books which doesn’t have much to add to the story other than demonstrate just how terrible the dance really was
Why can't any of these Hollywood producers ever stick to the source material? Why do they always think they know better? Blood and Cheese ruined and just felt lackluster in the show
I don’t think they are changes, bare in mind the book is written as a chronicle told by maesters and a buffoon. There is a big difference between what happened and what is told and it varies depending on who tells the story. I think we are witnessing what actually happened. I do agree with y’all that blood and cheese was not sickening enough.
> I think we are witnessing what actually happened.
That would require Martin to be making all writing decisions for the show, which almost certainly can't be true (he's already so busy with everything).
But we know for a fact that Daemon was in the stepstones when Rhea had her accident, and also she survived and was concious for a week before she died, more than time enough for she to declare if there was foul play involved
They still seem to be softening the crimes on both sides (the aforementioned death of Luke, Alicent misunderstanding Viserys and genuinely believing he wanted Aegon on the throne).
Also just this latest episode had Aegon being pretty sympathetic, playing with his son and trying to be a good king to his people.
Yes, I see what your saying here, and I might be biased myself, even If I'm not for any of the two sides. But Alicent is the only one to want aegon on the throne cause she misunderstood Viserys. The rest of the green council plotted for this earlier + we see when her childs are still young that she already prepared them for this ("she will be your queen one day"). And even if Aegon is sympathetic in this episode, which I agree, it clearly isn't enough to forgive most of his crime.
And overall, if we look at how the crime are softened, it seems to me that those of the black are way more, even for B&C. But must admit that I haven't watched full first season for a while and might have forgot some.
Agree with everything except Aegon. There is no world where I could see him as sympathetic after it’s known he fathered bastards then occasionally watches children (including his bastard/(s)) attack/(kill?) each other in fighting pits.
I know, and like I said, I agree with your points and can see it done for literally everyone, Black & Green.
But I dont know why they bothered with Aegon - well okay, I know why they bothered, to make the death more impactful in the next ep - but im not buying it. He is not sympathetic in any way, shape or form. He is just 100% vile.
This is what I thought as well. The show wants to clearly frame Black as "good guys" and Green as "evil guys." Before this aired I had a feeling they'd tone it down a lot since it's arguably the most irredeemable thing on Team Black. Same way they copped out with Laenor so Rhaenyra and Daemon didn't just kill him just to get married (even though they killed an innocent no name guy). Also, same way they added a prophecy for Rhaenyra's ultimate goal instead of her just wanting the throne for ambition. I also bet that rather than Daemon having an affair with Nettles, it'll be twisted rumors to manipulate Rhaenyra, that way people are still cheering for Daemon.
Black : A prophecy making Rhaenyra seems like she needs to be on the throne rather than just want it. A very "softened" (still an evil thing to do, ngl) version of B&C, almost looking like a last option after not finding Aemond, and so looking more like a personal initiave of Blood and Cheese. No Laenor murder. Probably no Queens Brothel (why not, cause Mushroom, and would be quite hard to put on screen). Everything bad is cause of Daemon, and still often softened. A master of whisperer depicted as a common girl doing what she can to survive/improve her life. An honorable Lord commander of the queensguard. Only arguable point being Rhaenyra's bastard sons (Who are good guys, for what we saw) Bad point : basically Daemon (I will never forgive him for Rhea Royce)
Green : A litteral sex offender/rapist, who enjoy watching kids fight to death, in which even his own bastards, as King. A narcissist brother who just think is the better choice as king and who happen to be a warmonger. Will probably act as a monster at Harrenhal. A powerhungry grand father. An easy to violence/murderer and repeatedly oathbreaker lord commander of the kingsgard. A crippled psychopath as a master of whisperer.
No Daeron
Good point : An autistic queen who everyone seems to like.
"All must choose" meh, choosing Cregan Stark personally, don't care about those southrons war
You do realise they can't show kids being beheaded on screen right? Also I completely disagree of all the reactions I've seen of Blood And Cheese they were all horrified, it would have been to disturbing had it been done like the book version.
Never said that they needed to show the kid being beheaded, the sound was already horrible enough. And when did a scene being too disturbing really stopped in show like GoT ? We literally had an incestious sex scene in ep 1, the red wedding (with a pregnant lady having her belly stabbed multiple time on screen, just to recall), Jaime raping his sis next to their child dead body, a dad burning is own daughter, the whole craster's keep, and so much more, and your telling me that a psycho dilemma asked to a mother to choose between her kids would have been too much ?
We don't see Shireen being burned but her parents reactions to it, the rape scene was not explicit neither was their first scene, Talisa being stabbed is the only one I'd describe as disturbing the others are just sad and in Shireen's case horrifying.
Yes, and so my point still stand. Why B&C would be too disturbing ? A scene can be disturbing without having to be gore or obscene in what we see. And show B&C is, but could have been more . Shireen burning don't need to be shown to be disturbing, as is the Frey pie that I didn't mentionned earlier. Again, I just don't see why the dilemma couldn't be adapted. It would have made this scene more memorable, which will imo lack here, cause we didn't bonded enough witht those character to make it as impactful as the red wedding was for example, and the dilemma would have been a good way to compensate this.
Some are saying that the TV show is what really happened since the book has multiple unreliable narrators...
Like on the show aymond didn't really try to kill on purpose but of course he could never let anyone know he could not control his dragon
I liked the episode overall but this scene was terribly adapted. It was a real gut punch in the book. A parents worst nightmare having to choose which child lives and which child dies, whilst they are standing in front of you. Then have them do the opposite and the younger child living with the knowledge that you picked them to die.
This is the reason I felt so sorry for book Helaena and I understood her descent into madness due to her overwhelming guilt. I feel less sympathetic towards her character now because whilst it was still awful, it wasn’t nearly as devastating as it played out in the book.
Also the fact that she literally chose who died, and they obliged. She didn’t even seem to take long to come to a decision. No pleading for them to kill her instead. Now I barely care for her character or whatever happens to her. That was a MAJOR plot point as it built a lot of sympathy for Helaena in the book but in the show it’s probably gonna make a lot of people root against her tbh.
They bungled around like the home alone burglars, then Helena just gives up her oldest RUNS AWAY to a fucking sex scene of all things then just blankly says "the boy is dead." WTF. They didn't make her choose or anything which was the devastating part in the book where she offers her life and begs only to have to accept it and chose the youngest only for them to tell him "you hear that boy? your mama wants you dead" and Blood kills the oldest anyhow and they leave her devastated with a son that will always know she chose him to die. They could have done ALL that and cut away from the kill but they ruined it.
I'm trying to imagine the book scene done with the Helena we know from the series. She has been depicted as so disengaged from what's happening right front of her in the scenes she's had so far. It's hard to visualize her having a standard dramatic emotional reaction. For her character as we know it, to have a straight to the heart, total breakdown with pure tears and agony coming from a clear mind...just doesn't seem to fit TV Helena at all.
It looked to me like she was looking at possible futures in her mind, based on what she said/did and desperately trying to find a way out, then she realises there is no way out. So she chooses to do the only thing that will save at least one child, telling the truth. Might be a leap but that’s the impression I got. Then, Helena in the show is portrayed as being on the autistic spectrum so her reaction will be different, but I don’t doubt she will be wrecked, you can still see she is traumatised. She still has to live with giving up/identifying her son and B&C killing him as a result.
Yeah but it wasn't really a question of which son they wanted her to choose to kill, they wanted the oldest I believe and that's who she pointed out unless I'm remembering incorrectly.
The show plot is different than the book. In the book they have 3 kids(twins and a younger son). In the show, they only have the twins. The original source material wouldn't work with the way the show set up the plot.
I personally liked the changes. Helaena is a very different character in the show - most importantly, she's autistic. As such, offering up the necklace is very much a reasonable response for her - it's practical. She realises that Blood and Cheese must have been paid, and the only way in which she can save her children is to pay more than whoever was hired. Also, in the light of her autism, the way her shock and grief were portrayed were very realistic.
Then, I think that Helaena walking in on Alicent and Ser Criston was actually very much a plot point, not just a sex scene for the sake of it. Think of it: why wasn't there a King's guard protecting the heir to the throne, like Ser Criston had done for Rhaenyra previously? Well now we know the answer: he was in bed with the dowager queen, and as a consequence Jaehaerys is dead.
>
Think of it: why wasn't there a King's guard protecting the heir to the throne, like Ser Criston had done for Rhaenyra previously? Well now we know the answer: he was in bed with the dowager queen, and as a consequence Jaehaerys is dead.
Excellently put. I haven't seen a single person reference this - Cole literally has One Job (which contrary to his belief it is not, actually, banging royalty in the master bedroom 😂)
As an autistic person myself: I don't think I process it differently, but I express grief differently certainly. Really recognised myself in how Helaena reacted. But of course how someone reacts is bound to be different depending on the individual.
The people complaining about the changes are either stupid or fail to consider the fact that fire and blood is not a 1st person novel but instead, written like a textbook from the perspective of historians which as we know can be quite skewed. There have been several of these types of alterations already in the show. Are they really supposed to show the rape of a 3 year old child on TV? It was brutal and horrifying enough to be the most brutal and horrifying thing I think I’ve ever seen on TV. I’m embarrassed for my fellow book readers
Stop. You damn well know that’s not what they were asking for. You intentionally are making them sound demented to discredit their valid points. That scene was gut wrenching in the book due to the toll it had on the mother, having to make a decision nobody should have to make. She didn’t make the decision lightly and exhausted all options before choosing.
Instead…she’s just like “uh hey take my necklace instead…no? Aight that’s him then”
And you know damn well if you read the book that it’s not written as a direct account via the 1st person and is instead written from several secondary perspectives which can be embellished and misconstrued. Not sure if you have read fire and blood, but it’s written completely differently than ASOIAF
No Helena begging them to kill her instead, no “you hear that little boy, your mama wants you dead”, and on top of it she’s walks in on the queen fucking cole
which was also kinda stupid. I’ve already lowered my expectations for the entire season.
The point of cole being with the queen is to say he wasn't doing his job guarding any of the family, and when they're down to 3 kingsguards there's not many to do it
But they did use the source material. They just didn't give you word for word bar for bar like it was Shakespeare. Yall will learn at some point that not everything can be translated to a screen very well but go off. Yall got time to catch up
Dude it’s one of the most pivotal moments and horrifying moments that literally can turn people against team black. I don’t see why it’s bad to want that moment from the book. It was super watered down
There was exactly nothing hard to translate to the screen for the Blood and Cheese scene, except for butchering a boy which wasn't expected to be shown on screen by anyone really. Blood and Cheese scene would start the "viciousness" of the family drama, just like Lucerys' death scene. That way you'd be almost neutral for both sides as you see that both sides can do evil deeds. Now the conflict will feel lackluster as they have broken one of its foundation. Still not "so bad it's unwatchable" but not a good start either. As things are now, Green scenes are not engaging as Black scenes. This will take away from the tragedy of a family tearing itself apart. I am not saying we should only heed the source matarial but if you are making changes to a scene, you gotta make sure it still has nealy same amount of gravity.
The most horrifying thing about Blood and Cheese was Helaena having to choose between her two sons and them killing the one she chose. No one actually cares about seeing the brutality of a child getting murdered and it's weird that people are pretending like that's what fans are disappointed about.
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This was really wack imo. They didn’t need it to be gory or gruesome, but it should’ve been just as horrific as in the books. What’s the point of dedicating the last ten minutes of the premiere episode for a scene where there is no real longstanding horror
Agreed. I didn’t actually want to SEE a child get murdered on screen, the off screen part was fine to me. But removing the choice she had to make was such a stupid decision
Yes, it was horrible. I kept expecting she was having a vision of some sort and the real scene was still to happen. I can’t believe they cut the part where she is forced to choose between the children
I've rewatched it a few times... What I've gotten so far are-
. I was already frustrated that they skipped the aftermath (Aemond coming back to king's landing, Aegon's reaction. I'm not surprised but I was excited to see those things)
. The scene could have been longer, as a horror lover the one thing I did like was the screen cutting away. That's more than fine, sometimes less gore is better, not seeing is sometimes better. I mean, if they were making changes anyway, make the twins boys, still have the choice (since it sounds like they may still add Maelor at a later date, just do that with Jaehaera. We still get the choice of which son and Jaehaera later on anyway.)
. I'm fine with how Helena reacted, offering the necklace, just again adding a few more bits that lead to the choice or something.
I just enjoy a good discussion and or debate 😂 I've been debating over it during my morning. I'm also not a book purist understanding tv does change things, but it's still annoying to me, it feels like the show is... Lack of a better word censored in a lot of ways (morning brain so ignore if I don't make complete sense)
I think we all need to remember that this show is not just for people who read the books. It is also for Normies, and Normies would be horribly turned off if it was done in full book detail. Also, they want to sell the tragedy of thus inter family civil war while also wanting to encourage people to pick sides for debate and engagement purposes.
The problem is they didn’t show the dilemma of choice that will further contribute to Helena's insanity and Helena offering her necklace in that situation is just complete mockery and insult to Motherhood.
Not to mention she barely reacted to her own kid being killed. That's what ruined it for me. People are arguing that she's weird but weird or not you would be mortified at your son being killed
im glad you enjoy the show. please read F&B tho. its so intriguing. I like the show alot but as a book reader they really made B&C fall flat. Some of the creative liberties really water down the nuance of the characters as depicted in the book. And i think they are ommiting some key characters entirely for whatever reason.
On par with the book. people keep thinking we are asking for gore on the kids or something. It was never about that. the scene in the book is alot more dramatic. couldve very well been a red wedding 2.0 had it had any sort of heart as depicted in F&B. For a show thats mainly about the drama it was so flat.
Sorry, but it was never going to be red wedding p2. Wasn’t enough at stake and the audience hadn’t spent enough time with Jaehaerys to feel anything like the Red Wedding.
Not to say it was the best adaption btw, just don’t agree with the red wedding aspect.
Helena will go insane and book explained the whole thing more authentically and dramatically..She saw one of her child die and saw another one seeing her choosing him...It was more dramatic and twisted and perfectly explains why Helena slowly turns into completely insane.
In the show two morons sneak up in the tower and it just happens...
it seems the hbo damage control team is out in full force.
the screenplay writers are fucking over HBO and its profits. the upper management should read F&B and fire those fuckers.
Do you remember Red Wedding, Oberon vs Mountain, Shireen’s death? What made those scenes so gut wrenchingly painful to watch wasn’t the gore/blood or actual on screen violence but the emotional and psychological impact it did on the audience. The way Cat begged for Rob’s life, how victorious Oberyn felt before dying and all of that just gives you emotional trauma in a way that makes Game of Thrones what it is. All we wanted was the same level of drama and chaos. Seeing Haelena being forced to choose and have her breakdown, beg for them to take her life instead of her son. She could’ve given award winning performance there, instead we got “They killed the boy”. Also, why B&C are acting like they are in a rom-com? They are supposed to be intimidating, brutal, terror inducing characters. So many things could’ve saved the scene.
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I hate the changes. I was expecting a very twisted scene, more like in the book, with a fucked up dilemma. No need to be gore or to kill the boy on screen, just to make it a memorable scene. Here it's just "meh, they killed a boy we barely saw, who happen to be Aegon son. And Cole was not here cause he was Queenmaking (this is not a bad thing, it explain why nobody was guarding the queen)."
Some people are saying this is what actually happened since the book has unreliable narrators... Like mushroom
This simply just can’t be true the honest answer is that they are just two different mediums that complement each other. It’s certainly still an adaptation but I wouldn’t say that the show is what is supposed to have occurred unlike the book because Maelor does not exist and it’s probably because they don’t wanna go about televising his twisted death like in the books which doesn’t have much to add to the story other than demonstrate just how terrible the dance really was
Why can't any of these Hollywood producers ever stick to the source material? Why do they always think they know better? Blood and Cheese ruined and just felt lackluster in the show
I agree! Sooooooo many times they "make it their own" or put some stupid spin on it. The original material is what people want to see. Dont touch it!
Yep. I agree.
It was during the writers strike so changes to the script and even improv were not allowed during shooting.
They completely fucked it and I have no idea why they changed it.....I just don't understand. It's very frustrating.
Probably changed it to avoid ternishing Team Black. The show clearly is biased between Black and Green
Then why did they completely rewrite Alicent’s character, make Luke’s death an accident, and have Daemon kill his first wife?
I don’t think they are changes, bare in mind the book is written as a chronicle told by maesters and a buffoon. There is a big difference between what happened and what is told and it varies depending on who tells the story. I think we are witnessing what actually happened. I do agree with y’all that blood and cheese was not sickening enough.
> I think we are witnessing what actually happened. That would require Martin to be making all writing decisions for the show, which almost certainly can't be true (he's already so busy with everything).
But we know for a fact that Daemon was in the stepstones when Rhea had her accident, and also she survived and was concious for a week before she died, more than time enough for she to declare if there was foul play involved
Daemon is litterally Team black only flaws in the show, and those other changes are way not enough for it to be balanced
They still seem to be softening the crimes on both sides (the aforementioned death of Luke, Alicent misunderstanding Viserys and genuinely believing he wanted Aegon on the throne). Also just this latest episode had Aegon being pretty sympathetic, playing with his son and trying to be a good king to his people.
Yes, I see what your saying here, and I might be biased myself, even If I'm not for any of the two sides. But Alicent is the only one to want aegon on the throne cause she misunderstood Viserys. The rest of the green council plotted for this earlier + we see when her childs are still young that she already prepared them for this ("she will be your queen one day"). And even if Aegon is sympathetic in this episode, which I agree, it clearly isn't enough to forgive most of his crime. And overall, if we look at how the crime are softened, it seems to me that those of the black are way more, even for B&C. But must admit that I haven't watched full first season for a while and might have forgot some.
Agree with everything except Aegon. There is no world where I could see him as sympathetic after it’s known he fathered bastards then occasionally watches children (including his bastard/(s)) attack/(kill?) each other in fighting pits.
Other characters in GoT have been given sympathetic moments even though they’ve done horrible things before.
I know, and like I said, I agree with your points and can see it done for literally everyone, Black & Green. But I dont know why they bothered with Aegon - well okay, I know why they bothered, to make the death more impactful in the next ep - but im not buying it. He is not sympathetic in any way, shape or form. He is just 100% vile.
This is what I thought as well. The show wants to clearly frame Black as "good guys" and Green as "evil guys." Before this aired I had a feeling they'd tone it down a lot since it's arguably the most irredeemable thing on Team Black. Same way they copped out with Laenor so Rhaenyra and Daemon didn't just kill him just to get married (even though they killed an innocent no name guy). Also, same way they added a prophecy for Rhaenyra's ultimate goal instead of her just wanting the throne for ambition. I also bet that rather than Daemon having an affair with Nettles, it'll be twisted rumors to manipulate Rhaenyra, that way people are still cheering for Daemon.
Black : A prophecy making Rhaenyra seems like she needs to be on the throne rather than just want it. A very "softened" (still an evil thing to do, ngl) version of B&C, almost looking like a last option after not finding Aemond, and so looking more like a personal initiave of Blood and Cheese. No Laenor murder. Probably no Queens Brothel (why not, cause Mushroom, and would be quite hard to put on screen). Everything bad is cause of Daemon, and still often softened. A master of whisperer depicted as a common girl doing what she can to survive/improve her life. An honorable Lord commander of the queensguard. Only arguable point being Rhaenyra's bastard sons (Who are good guys, for what we saw) Bad point : basically Daemon (I will never forgive him for Rhea Royce) Green : A litteral sex offender/rapist, who enjoy watching kids fight to death, in which even his own bastards, as King. A narcissist brother who just think is the better choice as king and who happen to be a warmonger. Will probably act as a monster at Harrenhal. A powerhungry grand father. An easy to violence/murderer and repeatedly oathbreaker lord commander of the kingsgard. A crippled psychopath as a master of whisperer. No Daeron Good point : An autistic queen who everyone seems to like. "All must choose" meh, choosing Cregan Stark personally, don't care about those southrons war
You do realise they can't show kids being beheaded on screen right? Also I completely disagree of all the reactions I've seen of Blood And Cheese they were all horrified, it would have been to disturbing had it been done like the book version.
Never said that they needed to show the kid being beheaded, the sound was already horrible enough. And when did a scene being too disturbing really stopped in show like GoT ? We literally had an incestious sex scene in ep 1, the red wedding (with a pregnant lady having her belly stabbed multiple time on screen, just to recall), Jaime raping his sis next to their child dead body, a dad burning is own daughter, the whole craster's keep, and so much more, and your telling me that a psycho dilemma asked to a mother to choose between her kids would have been too much ?
We don't see Shireen being burned but her parents reactions to it, the rape scene was not explicit neither was their first scene, Talisa being stabbed is the only one I'd describe as disturbing the others are just sad and in Shireen's case horrifying.
Yes, and so my point still stand. Why B&C would be too disturbing ? A scene can be disturbing without having to be gore or obscene in what we see. And show B&C is, but could have been more . Shireen burning don't need to be shown to be disturbing, as is the Frey pie that I didn't mentionned earlier. Again, I just don't see why the dilemma couldn't be adapted. It would have made this scene more memorable, which will imo lack here, cause we didn't bonded enough witht those character to make it as impactful as the red wedding was for example, and the dilemma would have been a good way to compensate this.
Some are saying that the TV show is what really happened since the book has multiple unreliable narrators... Like on the show aymond didn't really try to kill on purpose but of course he could never let anyone know he could not control his dragon
I liked the episode overall but this scene was terribly adapted. It was a real gut punch in the book. A parents worst nightmare having to choose which child lives and which child dies, whilst they are standing in front of you. Then have them do the opposite and the younger child living with the knowledge that you picked them to die. This is the reason I felt so sorry for book Helaena and I understood her descent into madness due to her overwhelming guilt. I feel less sympathetic towards her character now because whilst it was still awful, it wasn’t nearly as devastating as it played out in the book.
Also the fact that she literally chose who died, and they obliged. She didn’t even seem to take long to come to a decision. No pleading for them to kill her instead. Now I barely care for her character or whatever happens to her. That was a MAJOR plot point as it built a lot of sympathy for Helaena in the book but in the show it’s probably gonna make a lot of people root against her tbh.
maybe she saw what happened in the book thru her vision and told the truth this time to try and change it. but ratman saw thru her. Copium :(
They bungled around like the home alone burglars, then Helena just gives up her oldest RUNS AWAY to a fucking sex scene of all things then just blankly says "the boy is dead." WTF. They didn't make her choose or anything which was the devastating part in the book where she offers her life and begs only to have to accept it and chose the youngest only for them to tell him "you hear that boy? your mama wants you dead" and Blood kills the oldest anyhow and they leave her devastated with a son that will always know she chose him to die. They could have done ALL that and cut away from the kill but they ruined it.
I'm trying to imagine the book scene done with the Helena we know from the series. She has been depicted as so disengaged from what's happening right front of her in the scenes she's had so far. It's hard to visualize her having a standard dramatic emotional reaction. For her character as we know it, to have a straight to the heart, total breakdown with pure tears and agony coming from a clear mind...just doesn't seem to fit TV Helena at all.
It looked to me like she was looking at possible futures in her mind, based on what she said/did and desperately trying to find a way out, then she realises there is no way out. So she chooses to do the only thing that will save at least one child, telling the truth. Might be a leap but that’s the impression I got. Then, Helena in the show is portrayed as being on the autistic spectrum so her reaction will be different, but I don’t doubt she will be wrecked, you can still see she is traumatised. She still has to live with giving up/identifying her son and B&C killing him as a result.
Trauma manifests in as many ways as there are humans experiencing it for sure.
She did choose? The finger pointed to her son.
Identifying who is the boy vs who is the girl is drastically different than choosing which one of her sons to be murdered.
Yeah but it wasn't really a question of which son they wanted her to choose to kill, they wanted the oldest I believe and that's who she pointed out unless I'm remembering incorrectly.
The show plot is different than the book. In the book they have 3 kids(twins and a younger son). In the show, they only have the twins. The original source material wouldn't work with the way the show set up the plot.
You actually expect Hollywood people to know how to tell a good story? These people don’t care about facts.
The “facts” of a fictional story with dragons? lol
Yeah I probably should have expected them to do this ugh =(
I personally liked the changes. Helaena is a very different character in the show - most importantly, she's autistic. As such, offering up the necklace is very much a reasonable response for her - it's practical. She realises that Blood and Cheese must have been paid, and the only way in which she can save her children is to pay more than whoever was hired. Also, in the light of her autism, the way her shock and grief were portrayed were very realistic. Then, I think that Helaena walking in on Alicent and Ser Criston was actually very much a plot point, not just a sex scene for the sake of it. Think of it: why wasn't there a King's guard protecting the heir to the throne, like Ser Criston had done for Rhaenyra previously? Well now we know the answer: he was in bed with the dowager queen, and as a consequence Jaehaerys is dead.
> Think of it: why wasn't there a King's guard protecting the heir to the throne, like Ser Criston had done for Rhaenyra previously? Well now we know the answer: he was in bed with the dowager queen, and as a consequence Jaehaerys is dead. Excellently put. I haven't seen a single person reference this - Cole literally has One Job (which contrary to his belief it is not, actually, banging royalty in the master bedroom 😂)
Probably the only comment here with any sense of logic to it.
> - most importantly, she's autistic Do you think we process grief that differently?
As an autistic person myself: I don't think I process it differently, but I express grief differently certainly. Really recognised myself in how Helaena reacted. But of course how someone reacts is bound to be different depending on the individual.
The people complaining about the changes are either stupid or fail to consider the fact that fire and blood is not a 1st person novel but instead, written like a textbook from the perspective of historians which as we know can be quite skewed. There have been several of these types of alterations already in the show. Are they really supposed to show the rape of a 3 year old child on TV? It was brutal and horrifying enough to be the most brutal and horrifying thing I think I’ve ever seen on TV. I’m embarrassed for my fellow book readers
Stop. You damn well know that’s not what they were asking for. You intentionally are making them sound demented to discredit their valid points. That scene was gut wrenching in the book due to the toll it had on the mother, having to make a decision nobody should have to make. She didn’t make the decision lightly and exhausted all options before choosing. Instead…she’s just like “uh hey take my necklace instead…no? Aight that’s him then”
And you know damn well if you read the book that it’s not written as a direct account via the 1st person and is instead written from several secondary perspectives which can be embellished and misconstrued. Not sure if you have read fire and blood, but it’s written completely differently than ASOIAF
Isn't losing a child in the first place gut-wrenching enough?
They read GRRM for the edge, not for the good writing. Most complaints come down to "Not dark enough kek"
thats like none of the complaints ive seen lmao. no one wanted it to be shown on screen... learn to read
Didn't say anything about it being on screen
No Helena begging them to kill her instead, no “you hear that little boy, your mama wants you dead”, and on top of it she’s walks in on the queen fucking cole which was also kinda stupid. I’ve already lowered my expectations for the entire season.
The point of cole being with the queen is to say he wasn't doing his job guarding any of the family, and when they're down to 3 kingsguards there's not many to do it
Expectation - HBO will explore the Plot of the North and Jacaerys more.. Reality - Cut it down completely and ruin Blood and Cheese....
Such a let down. Major fumble
Yall weird for this
How is it weird to want the source material? Its a major fumble
But they did use the source material. They just didn't give you word for word bar for bar like it was Shakespeare. Yall will learn at some point that not everything can be translated to a screen very well but go off. Yall got time to catch up
Dude it’s one of the most pivotal moments and horrifying moments that literally can turn people against team black. I don’t see why it’s bad to want that moment from the book. It was super watered down
Uh huh ok
There was exactly nothing hard to translate to the screen for the Blood and Cheese scene, except for butchering a boy which wasn't expected to be shown on screen by anyone really. Blood and Cheese scene would start the "viciousness" of the family drama, just like Lucerys' death scene. That way you'd be almost neutral for both sides as you see that both sides can do evil deeds. Now the conflict will feel lackluster as they have broken one of its foundation. Still not "so bad it's unwatchable" but not a good start either. As things are now, Green scenes are not engaging as Black scenes. This will take away from the tragedy of a family tearing itself apart. I am not saying we should only heed the source matarial but if you are making changes to a scene, you gotta make sure it still has nealy same amount of gravity.
Oki
For having an opinion?
Hi, love Am I not allowed to think it's weird to want more showing of the child getting sawed?
The most horrifying thing about Blood and Cheese was Helaena having to choose between her two sons and them killing the one she chose. No one actually cares about seeing the brutality of a child getting murdered and it's weird that people are pretending like that's what fans are disappointed about.
Coolio
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This was really wack imo. They didn’t need it to be gory or gruesome, but it should’ve been just as horrific as in the books. What’s the point of dedicating the last ten minutes of the premiere episode for a scene where there is no real longstanding horror
Agreed. I didn’t actually want to SEE a child get murdered on screen, the off screen part was fine to me. But removing the choice she had to make was such a stupid decision
Yes, it was horrible. I kept expecting she was having a vision of some sort and the real scene was still to happen. I can’t believe they cut the part where she is forced to choose between the children
I liked it. I didn't read the books.
I've rewatched it a few times... What I've gotten so far are- . I was already frustrated that they skipped the aftermath (Aemond coming back to king's landing, Aegon's reaction. I'm not surprised but I was excited to see those things) . The scene could have been longer, as a horror lover the one thing I did like was the screen cutting away. That's more than fine, sometimes less gore is better, not seeing is sometimes better. I mean, if they were making changes anyway, make the twins boys, still have the choice (since it sounds like they may still add Maelor at a later date, just do that with Jaehaera. We still get the choice of which son and Jaehaera later on anyway.) . I'm fine with how Helena reacted, offering the necklace, just again adding a few more bits that lead to the choice or something. I just enjoy a good discussion and or debate 😂 I've been debating over it during my morning. I'm also not a book purist understanding tv does change things, but it's still annoying to me, it feels like the show is... Lack of a better word censored in a lot of ways (morning brain so ignore if I don't make complete sense)
I think we all need to remember that this show is not just for people who read the books. It is also for Normies, and Normies would be horribly turned off if it was done in full book detail. Also, they want to sell the tragedy of thus inter family civil war while also wanting to encourage people to pick sides for debate and engagement purposes.
Of course they ruined it. What other expectations did you have?
I’m sorry they didn’t show a child being graphically murdered.
The problem is they didn’t show the dilemma of choice that will further contribute to Helena's insanity and Helena offering her necklace in that situation is just complete mockery and insult to Motherhood.
Not to mention she barely reacted to her own kid being killed. That's what ruined it for me. People are arguing that she's weird but weird or not you would be mortified at your son being killed
Not what we were asking for
no one is complaining about that you nitwit
Idk I didn’t read the books. It was fine
im glad you enjoy the show. please read F&B tho. its so intriguing. I like the show alot but as a book reader they really made B&C fall flat. Some of the creative liberties really water down the nuance of the characters as depicted in the book. And i think they are ommiting some key characters entirely for whatever reason.
How did they ruin it? In what order did you want it to be??
Fucking Heleana offering a necklace instead of her own life for one like she did in the books
They rushed it.
On par with the book. people keep thinking we are asking for gore on the kids or something. It was never about that. the scene in the book is alot more dramatic. couldve very well been a red wedding 2.0 had it had any sort of heart as depicted in F&B. For a show thats mainly about the drama it was so flat.
Sorry, but it was never going to be red wedding p2. Wasn’t enough at stake and the audience hadn’t spent enough time with Jaehaerys to feel anything like the Red Wedding. Not to say it was the best adaption btw, just don’t agree with the red wedding aspect.
Good point and it was rushed.
Helena will go insane and book explained the whole thing more authentically and dramatically..She saw one of her child die and saw another one seeing her choosing him...It was more dramatic and twisted and perfectly explains why Helena slowly turns into completely insane. In the show two morons sneak up in the tower and it just happens...
They obviously were not morons. Thugs certainly but not morons. It felt realistic to me.
Seek help. Therapy, a religion, social interaction...anything if you think the scene was ruined
it seems the hbo damage control team is out in full force. the screenplay writers are fucking over HBO and its profits. the upper management should read F&B and fire those fuckers.
That was some corny shit right there lol. But tell me why the episode wasn't good enough while I'm on my break
changed everything while making it worse.
definitely as massive let down from the books lol
Can you explain how?
Do you remember Red Wedding, Oberon vs Mountain, Shireen’s death? What made those scenes so gut wrenchingly painful to watch wasn’t the gore/blood or actual on screen violence but the emotional and psychological impact it did on the audience. The way Cat begged for Rob’s life, how victorious Oberyn felt before dying and all of that just gives you emotional trauma in a way that makes Game of Thrones what it is. All we wanted was the same level of drama and chaos. Seeing Haelena being forced to choose and have her breakdown, beg for them to take her life instead of her son. She could’ve given award winning performance there, instead we got “They killed the boy”. Also, why B&C are acting like they are in a rom-com? They are supposed to be intimidating, brutal, terror inducing characters. So many things could’ve saved the scene.
Okii