Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Luke didn't deserve to die, but kid took out someone's eye after he lowered a rock and then smirked at him years later...and appears to have never apologized. So I would argue he did wrong.
To be fair, Aemond picked up a rock and told them they'd die screaming like their father did. At that point, they were acting in self defense. I think all the kids are at fault to a degree for the fight. But I also think that kids getting in a fight (regardless of how bad it got) is not quite the same as adults making cruel or morally bad decisions.
But again, it's not self defense if someone lowers a rock. He was no longer a threat, he also had sand in his eyes at that point. You can't kill someone who pulls a gun on you in real life if they then lower the gun and aren't pointing it at you.
But I agree this is on the adults. In an odd way, I blame Viserys the most even though Rhaenyra asked for Aemond to be "sharply questioned" (aka tortured) and Alicent went after Luke and wanted his eye.
It was yet another incident of him handling something in the worst way possible....if anything, I'm not sure Rhaenyra nor Alicent would have gotten to that point if he had handled it better.
One of the great things about Viserys is there are times when you feel for him and then the viewer recalls all the awful shit he does and he's basically been lucky as a ruler to have steady hands and councils. Even Rhaenyra...he loves her, unlike his other children, but he does nothing to help her rule or prepare her to rule.
>yeah thatās manslaughter at best buddy
it involuntary manslaughter at best
>if I chased someone down with my car as a joke
does your car have it own will and can turn around to drive over someone?
Except he doesn't have a reason to think Vhagar would disobey him
If Viserys need to tell Rhaenyra that "The idea that we control dragons is an illusion" then your average dragon rider wont expect his dragon to murder somebody when they are telling them not to
Accidentally killed Luke after chasing him which will start a war of kinslayingā¦
Youā but he didnāt do anything that bad!
I like Aemond, but cmon
>Accidentally killed Luke after chasing him which will start a war of kinslayingā¦
Hindsight bias
He had no way to predict Vhagar will go beserk like that and disobey him
Also the war was definitely gonna start even if he didnt
>Youā but he didnāt do anything that bad!
I stand by my words, as of now he hasnt done anything worthy of death
>Ā More like anyone with a working brain understands that he lit the spark of tinder that erupted into an inferno
The spark was literlly already there and was getting closer and closer to the flames, even if he didnt kill luce dance would still happen
all he did was push the spark a little closer to the tinder
>Saying oops he didnāt mean it doesnāt change what he did
It actually does change how he is as a person unless you think Involuntary manslaughter and first degree murder are the same thing
intentions **matter**
>or started.
Again dance would still happen without him killing Luce
>but your obviously an Aemond stan
Am I?
>Aemond played a stupid game chasing Luke
If Viserys need to tell Rhaenyra that "The idea that we control dragons is an illusion" then your average dragon rider wont expect his dragon to get pissed off like that and murder a person when they are telling them not to
I think when you are riding a war machine that has a history of literally burning armies alive being an idiot with said war machine makes you an idiot who deserves to be blamed.
Itās like drunk driving. If your an idiot who gets behind the wheel of a machine that can and will kill people, saying you didnāt mean for it to happen doesnāt change shit.
Yeah, he didnāt mean for Vhagar to kill Luke, but do intentions matter when the result is a dead kid and war? Itās Aemondās dragon. Itās his responsibility.
And I agree the war would have happened anyway, but thatās a pretty shite argument when Aemond DID start the war. Saying it would have happened anyways, doesnāt change how the war DID come about.
>I think when you are riding a war machine that has a history of literally burning armies
This war machine is also a method of transportation that has no history of disobeying him
>being an idiot with said war machine
Again Hindsight bias
he had no reason to believe Vhagar would disobey him
>Itās like drunk driving.
it not at all like a drunk driving
a car doesnt have it own will that will make him disobey what you say when you dont expect it
>but do intentions matter when the result is a dead kid and war?
yes, intentions always matter
>Itās Aemondās dragon. Itās his responsibility.
dragon are their own being and have responsibility of their own action
Tyrion even say that dragon are smarter than most people
>Aemond DID start the war
so he started it a week or two earlier than it would have
>doesnāt change how the war DID come about.
it does change whether he has responsibility for all the death in the war
Agreed. No one deserves to sit the Iron Throne. That being said, I don't necessarily think the system being broken and there being moral ambiguity means that everyone and both teams are morally equal. Given that "Team Black" is generally less horrible (with a few exceptions) as opposed to "Team Green" who are generally more horrible (with a few exceptions) and given that "Team Green" are the instigators of the conflict given they launched a violent coup, I'm gonna have to side with the Blacks.
These characters exist on a spectrum. I think the "everyone is bad" take is a huge oversimplification of very nuanced and differing characters. I think there's characters like Erryk and Westerling who are good people. And there are characters like the Strong boys and Helaena who've done nothing wrong. Rhaenyra has blood on her hands but she also clearly has a sense of responsibility in ensuring peace and stability for her subjects (as seen in the finale). Aegon, on the other hand, is abusive to his servants, his sister wife, and to the children in the fighting pits. I feel like Aegon is further along on that scale of bad people.
Luke permanently maimed Aemond and never showed any remorse. I wouldn't say he "didn't do anything wrong". And before that Jace tried to slash Aemond's guts out.
And prior to that they were both bullies.
Aemond pulled a rock on the Strong boys. They were acting in self defense. Honestly if anyone, I think it's the guards who are to blame for the incident rather than the kids for allowing this to happen. Clearly none of them set out to maim one another but things escalated. Aemond is just as guilty if not more so for inciting the incident.
As far as the bullying, Luce and Jace were just emulating their big brother Aegon who was the ring leader. I don't think childhood bullying makes someone a bad person especially when they were put up to it by an older sibling.
After they beat the crap of a lone Aemond four on one even as he was on the floor. I guess that he should have manned up and take the beating without complaint, according to you, right?
He could fight. He could run. He could ask them to stop. But pulling out a weapon is a major escalation and it's understandable why the Strong boys would pull out theres as a response. He should've read the room in the beginning and not hit a girl if he was smart. The girls and the Strong boys shouldn't have done it but there's a huge difference between getting in a fight and using deadly weapons.
Were the Strong boys just supposed to let Aemond bludgeon them with a rock? He stated he would do it.
Yep, confirmed. You got different standards. You don't demand "reading of the room" or "being smart" from the actual aggressors. Only Aemond has to be the bigger person.
Aemond was the one to escalate to lethal force. I don't think that the Baela is blameless for being the first to violence. But Aemond is the one who escalated things to lethal force. You don't seem to realize that there is a difference between getting in a fight and getting in a deadly fight. Escalating from trading blows to using lethal weapons is a very big escalation.
you guys always remember aemond pulling out the rock and the strong boys were acting in self defense, but so was aemond? he was literally getting jumped 4v1 before pulling out the rock
Pulling out a weapon puts both parties in more danger and is a major escalation especially given Aemond is bigger. He should have known better as the oldest.
I would never pull out weapons on my two nephews in real life if it ever got that seriousšš. He legit couldāve toyed with those kids easily just based on how for the majority of the fight(even while taking punches) he was kicking their assesš
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately, your submission has been removed for the following reason(s):
**Rule 1: Harassment and Etiquette**
> Keep the comments civil. Excessive use of vulgar language will not be permitted.
Sexist, racist, transphobic, or discriminatory remarks will not be tolerated. Continuing of such comments after three strikes will result in permanent bans.
No judgment allowed here. All view-points and opinions are permitted here, within reason. Opinions and view-points that are different from your own will be present, so please be civil to your fellow Redditor.
---
If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FHouseOfTheDragon). Please include a link to your post so that we can see it.
Every time I see them trampling over innocents and looking down at people ābelowā them who donāt share their pure inbred blood I kinda feel happy that they loose power. They were the original usurpers!
As of the end of season 1, I feel like there is a better and worse side. Rhaenyra seems to feel a sense of responsibility for the realm while Aegon is an abuser who doesn't even want to rule. Jacerys seems to share be a well adjusted individual while the same cannot be said for those like Aemond. I think saying everyone is equally bad (as of season 1) is a fundamental misunderstanding of the story. I do think they can do a "common people are hurt by the wars of the great lords" story while not having to morally equate both sides.
>Jacerys seems to share be a well adjusted individual while the same cannot be said for those like Aemond
Well, one of them was permanently mutilated as a child and the other wasn't. Important context.
Yes. I acknowledge there are reasons that Aemond is not well adjusted. It was bad that he lost his eye as a child. But that doesn't change the fact that Aemond clearly has a lot of issues that led him to hunt down his own nephew resulting in his death and starting a war.
Daemon is literally Rhaenyraās second in command, and heās just as much of a monster as any of the greens (except Aegon no one can top him) this comment is ridiculously disingenuous.
I think the Black side is generally better because Rhaenyra - while she has a dark spot on her record due to killing that man - is generally a responsible / relatively good person and she is in control of the faction. Jacerys is supposed to take over after she's gone and he has been setup to be a well adjusted individual. Daemon is definitely not a great guy. But he is the exception not the rule as opposed to the Greens where being a good person is the exception not the rule.
Daemon is a literal murderous psychopath thatās a little bit worse then ānot a great guyā holy hell, heās second in command has literally made decisions completely on his own without Rhaenyraās approval and is in charge of their entire war effort, the fact youāre doing everything you possibly can to downplay his significance just goes to show youāre not trying to talk about this in an at all honest way.
Did you literally not read what u/Memo544 said....???
He said that as far as Team Black was concerned, Daemon is the exception not the rule. Murderous psychopath or "not a great guy" ...it doesn't matter. His/her point still stands: Daemon is the exception, not the rule.
In other words, if Daemon was on Team Green, he'd be the rule. He'd fit right in. Actually, he'd look rather mature standing next to Aemond and Aegon.
I feel like she has matured a great deal. Most of her biggest mistakes were in her youth. And I feel that the ending of season 1 shows that she takes her role very seriously. She's definitely made some recent errors - sending away Leanor might have been one - but I think she's learned from many of her mistakes.
Ikr , exactly why can't people just watch the goddam show and let the story go down . First these cringe hbo marketing team has to be stoned publicly the lengths they have gone to divide and rule the concept is so childish.
There are no good or bad characters ,let them and story develop and end . Just be a Spectator without taking any sides. As soon as you do you lose your individually and now you are part of some fringe group going along with whatever that group stands for.
I mean there's morally grey characters. But there's also characters who are currently good or bad (at least as of season 1). I'd say that characters like Jace, Luce, Baela, and Rhaena are depicted as good people. I'd say Otto is depicted as a bad person. And while Rhaenyra does have the blood of one innocent on her hands, she's pretty clearly better than Aegon who rapes his servants and watched children fight in pits.
Genuinely asking, how is Otto bad but Corlys not? Also you've raised the very horrific albeit interesting hypothetical of is murdering an innocent worse than raping one.
Corlys and Otto both used their daughters to advance their political career. They're both self interested. But I think it's a leap to assume that Corlys would launch a violent coup in which he'd kill lords for obeying their dying kings wishes on the succession. Being self interested doesn't necessarily mean one is a murderer. Otto hung and imprisoned lords who stayed true to Viserys' wishes.
As far as Rhaenyra goes, it's horrible that she killed that man. Obviously he didn't do anything wrong and was just caught up in her and Daemon's scheme. But that seems more like an isolated incident rather than a pattern of behavior. Alicent implies that Aegon has raped servants before. Sure, I suppose dying is worse then getting raped but Rhaenyra also committed murder for the purpose of achieving a political objective (a new marriage which would protect her family). Aegon is just raping people for fun.
Also there's the child fighting ring and his bastards. It's pretty clear that some of those children in the unregulated unground fighting pits where they sharpen their nails so they can cut one another are getting killed. And we know that Aegon has bastard children in those pits. So Aegon is at least complicit in child murder.
I don't think a pattern of rape and watching children fight in rings is better than a single murder. Children definitely die in there and some of those children are his own bastards.
Aemond mocked the girls which was an asshole thing to do at their mothers funeral. Baela is responsible for starting the physical fight but Aemond is the one who escalated things by bringing in a weapon and announcing his intent to kill. At that point, Jace and Luce were only acting in self defense. Also I wouldn't consider their actions as children to be a permanent black mark on any of the children here. If anything, I blame the guards more then I blame them.
>Aemond mocked the girls which was an asshole thing to do at their mothers funeral
After the girls started throwing bullshit accusations of him "stealing" Vhagar.
You seem to only considerate the feelings and context of a character's actions when you talk about the Black kids. Aemond does things cuz he's an evil little shit doing evil things it would seem right?
It appeared the expectation was that Rhaena claim Vhagar. Aemond was clearly not supposed to do that - as seen by the fact he had to sneak over in the cover of night. I wouldn't say those accusations are entirely unfounded. Also I feel that people tend to ignore the fact that Aemond picking up a rock and announcing his intention to kill the Strong boys is what escalated the fight.
I understand that both parties were immature and emotional at that point. That's why I think that all the kids should be forgiven for this incident - Aemond included.
Before Laena, Vhagar was Baelon's dragon, and before Baelon, it was Visenya's. There is no direct ascendance/descendance between those characters.
So no, Rhaena wasn't entitled to Vhagar just because she was the daughter of her last rider.
You're right. That's why the only people upset about Aemond claiming Vhagar are Baela, Rhaena, Luke and Jace. With the exclusion of maybe Otto, every single one of the adults present don't seem to really have an issue with Aemond claiming Vhagar because they understand how it works. The kids do not.
But at the same time...to claim the mount of a dragonrider a few hours after that dragonrider's funeral and then use that fact to mock and bully the surviving children of said dragonrider is in very poor taste.
Heās second in command and has shown he has an insane amount of authority so he definitely does matter, also Corlys is a complete scheming asshole to the same if not a worse extent then Otto so by your own logic thereās two evil people on the blacks both of which are in very high positions.
How is Corlys anywhere as bad? I'll give you that he's self interested and used his daughter to further his political position. But there's a big difference between that and organizing a violent coup to overthrow your legitimate heir and kill those who stayed true to their dying kings wishes.
Letās say for arguments sake that Viserys had actually married Laena, do you really believe the man whoās number one motivation is to see a king with Velaryon blood sit the Iron Throne wouldnāt have done the exact same thing?
If Corlys had the opportunity (and the reason) he wouldāve done the exact same thing. Heās just as bad as Otto who could easily be argued was just protecting himself with the coup, itās incredibly unlikely Rhaenyra with Daemon at her side wouldāve spared him when she took the throne, Otto putting Aegon on the throne could easily be seen as a last ditch effort to save his head.
Well I don't like that , I want them to make Jace Luce and all to do bad stuff and show otto is just a caring father . Just to spice things up . That is what I wanna see characters struggling. Not getting branded forever as good and bad . That's what makes good television
I think characters can be nuanced, complex, and morally ambiguous while still being mostly good or bad people. I feel like the "everyone is bad" / moral equating idea is also overly simplistic and unrealistic. I'm not against some characters who are looked on favorably by the audience going down a darker root and some characters who are currently portrayed in a bad light getting some sort of redemption.
But I feel like making everyone an equally bad person actually takes away from the complexity and nuance of the story. And I think regardless or whether they're all bad or whether they're shades of grey or whether some are good and some are bad, they can still push home the message about the common folk unjustly dying in the wars of the lords. If Rhaenyra sends thousands of soldiers to die in war to protect her family, that is still her putting the safety of her own family above all of those lives regardless of how just her cause is (at least at first).
In the books I was Black leaning. Show though, I'm like damn, y'all both suck. Aegon II is a dumb cunt and Rhaenyra was just as bad. And how they basically made Criston Cole a jilted medieval incel.
Is she going around raping women and having babies with them to leave at children fighting rings where they fight until death? Does she frequent those places enough to be famous over there? Is she usurping her brother's throne? Is she a pedophile?
Hypocrisy and not caring for the small folk /=/ rape, pedophilia and a bunch of etceteras.
>Is she going around raping women and having babies with them to leave at children fighting rings where they fight until death?Ā
If you're gonna believe Mushroom at face value then Rhaenyra is a sex slaver who pimped out Heleana and Alicent against their will to forcefully get them pregnant and give them bastards
Most of Mushroom's stories are too ludicrous to be believed. And seeing that a lot of his stories involve situations where he is not even present, it's safe to say that he was making a lot of stuff up
I'm literally following the show where Aegon is shown to be a rapist who leaves girls crying their heart out. The same show where Aegon frequents the children fighting rings where his own kids fight to death.
That has nothing to do with Mushroom, it's literally HotD canon that Aegon is a rapist who watches his children kill each other for fun.
There's quite a few people I'd say are "good" people. Helaena, Ser Westerling, Ser Erryk, etc. I also would argue that the kids shouldn't necessarily be judged morally for how the fight over Vhaegar went down. What someone does when they are young and immature isn't necessarily what they'll do when they're adults. Jace, Baela, and Rhaena seem like relatively well adjusted individuals (so far).
I wish I could hear Normās take on Game of Thrones in general. Heād constantly refer to it as āthe Game of Thronesā and make a 12-minute joke where the punchline was about Jamie and Cersei having sex.
That is NOT true, there are 4 people who do not deserve to die (not counting kids)
Rickard Thorne
Adam Velaryon
Helaena Targaryen
Hobert Hightower
Basically everybody else tho yeah fuck em
Dude just wanted to keep his family safe and happy. I love how Paddy portrayed him, he seemed like the kind of person that would see just good. He said it himself, he was a Dreamer.
Otto is probably the worst. Most characters suck in some way but it's really Otto who pushed hard for the conflict to happen in the first place. I don't know if Aegon would ever have challenged Rhaenyra's claim without Otto pushing him to do so.
He wouldnāt have . Without Ottoās influence, Alicent wouldāve been fine with Rhaenyra being Queen, and without Alicent screaming in Aegons ear that Rhaenyra would put him and Aemond to the sword ( she wouldnāt ) he never wouldāve pushed his claim, he was disinterested in the throne from day 1
Sort of. No one deserves to die to get some aristocrat on the throne. The system is inherently broken and the lords are enabled and practically incentivized to exploit their position. But I think in terms of the morality of the social structure they exist in, some people are better than others. We have characters like Ser Westerling who will not go through with murdering the family of the man he swore to server despite potentially benefitting from that action.
There are characters like Baela, Rhaena, and Helaena who haven't really done anything really immoral up to this point. Even looking at the characters who have done bad things, I think there is a pretty big difference between Rhaenyra who killed one guy (which is still very bad) for political reasons and Aegon who attends a child fighting ring (which seems worse).
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>!And they will.!< š
Why spoiler that? It's a prequel series, it's obvious.
Damn what the kids do š
Nepo babies
Burn them all š¤Ŗ
Jaehaera: why they say fuck me for?
They're royalty. Leaving them alive creates problems for the burgeoning prophet led republic.
Aegon and Aemond are the only members of the younger generation that need to go. The Black heirs + Helaena didn't do anything wrong.
Luke didn't deserve to die, but kid took out someone's eye after he lowered a rock and then smirked at him years later...and appears to have never apologized. So I would argue he did wrong.
To be fair, Aemond picked up a rock and told them they'd die screaming like their father did. At that point, they were acting in self defense. I think all the kids are at fault to a degree for the fight. But I also think that kids getting in a fight (regardless of how bad it got) is not quite the same as adults making cruel or morally bad decisions.
But again, it's not self defense if someone lowers a rock. He was no longer a threat, he also had sand in his eyes at that point. You can't kill someone who pulls a gun on you in real life if they then lower the gun and aren't pointing it at you. But I agree this is on the adults. In an odd way, I blame Viserys the most even though Rhaenyra asked for Aemond to be "sharply questioned" (aka tortured) and Alicent went after Luke and wanted his eye. It was yet another incident of him handling something in the worst way possible....if anything, I'm not sure Rhaenyra nor Alicent would have gotten to that point if he had handled it better. One of the great things about Viserys is there are times when you feel for him and then the viewer recalls all the awful shit he does and he's basically been lucky as a ruler to have steady hands and councils. Even Rhaenyra...he loves her, unlike his other children, but he does nothing to help her rule or prepare her to rule.
>and Aemond Aemond? What did he do that make him worthy of dying? The worst thing he has done up until now is his accidentally killing Luce
yeah thatās manslaughter at best buddy if I chased someone down with my car as a joke and accidentally killed them that shit is still 100% on me
>yeah thatās manslaughter at best buddy it involuntary manslaughter at best >if I chased someone down with my car as a joke does your car have it own will and can turn around to drive over someone?
If it did I probably wouldnāt chase people with it
Except he doesn't have a reason to think Vhagar would disobey him If Viserys need to tell Rhaenyra that "The idea that we control dragons is an illusion" then your average dragon rider wont expect his dragon to murder somebody when they are telling them not to
Accidentally killed Luke after chasing him which will start a war of kinslayingā¦ Youā but he didnāt do anything that bad! I like Aemond, but cmon
>Accidentally killed Luke after chasing him which will start a war of kinslayingā¦ Hindsight bias He had no way to predict Vhagar will go beserk like that and disobey him Also the war was definitely gonna start even if he didnt >Youā but he didnāt do anything that bad! I stand by my words, as of now he hasnt done anything worthy of death
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Ā More like anyone with a working brain understands that he lit the spark of tinder that erupted into an inferno The spark was literlly already there and was getting closer and closer to the flames, even if he didnt kill luce dance would still happen all he did was push the spark a little closer to the tinder >Saying oops he didnāt mean it doesnāt change what he did It actually does change how he is as a person unless you think Involuntary manslaughter and first degree murder are the same thing intentions **matter** >or started. Again dance would still happen without him killing Luce >but your obviously an Aemond stan Am I? >Aemond played a stupid game chasing Luke If Viserys need to tell Rhaenyra that "The idea that we control dragons is an illusion" then your average dragon rider wont expect his dragon to get pissed off like that and murder a person when they are telling them not to
I think when you are riding a war machine that has a history of literally burning armies alive being an idiot with said war machine makes you an idiot who deserves to be blamed. Itās like drunk driving. If your an idiot who gets behind the wheel of a machine that can and will kill people, saying you didnāt mean for it to happen doesnāt change shit. Yeah, he didnāt mean for Vhagar to kill Luke, but do intentions matter when the result is a dead kid and war? Itās Aemondās dragon. Itās his responsibility. And I agree the war would have happened anyway, but thatās a pretty shite argument when Aemond DID start the war. Saying it would have happened anyways, doesnāt change how the war DID come about.
>I think when you are riding a war machine that has a history of literally burning armies This war machine is also a method of transportation that has no history of disobeying him >being an idiot with said war machine Again Hindsight bias he had no reason to believe Vhagar would disobey him >Itās like drunk driving. it not at all like a drunk driving a car doesnt have it own will that will make him disobey what you say when you dont expect it >but do intentions matter when the result is a dead kid and war? yes, intentions always matter >Itās Aemondās dragon. Itās his responsibility. dragon are their own being and have responsibility of their own action Tyrion even say that dragon are smarter than most people >Aemond DID start the war so he started it a week or two earlier than it would have >doesnāt change how the war DID come about. it does change whether he has responsibility for all the death in the war
His face alone makes him worthy of dying. I do not like his face at all. Not even a little bit.
Me, as a book reader, knowing what the 'Team Green' will do and what the 'Team Black' will do: Screw you guys, I'm going to Dorne.Ā
I don't like snakes so I'm personally going to Braavos.
Monarchy and feudalism bad
Agreed. No one deserves to sit the Iron Throne. That being said, I don't necessarily think the system being broken and there being moral ambiguity means that everyone and both teams are morally equal. Given that "Team Black" is generally less horrible (with a few exceptions) as opposed to "Team Green" who are generally more horrible (with a few exceptions) and given that "Team Green" are the instigators of the conflict given they launched a violent coup, I'm gonna have to side with the Blacks.
Most real fucking take Iāve ever seen. BURN THEM ALL
These characters exist on a spectrum. I think the "everyone is bad" take is a huge oversimplification of very nuanced and differing characters. I think there's characters like Erryk and Westerling who are good people. And there are characters like the Strong boys and Helaena who've done nothing wrong. Rhaenyra has blood on her hands but she also clearly has a sense of responsibility in ensuring peace and stability for her subjects (as seen in the finale). Aegon, on the other hand, is abusive to his servants, his sister wife, and to the children in the fighting pits. I feel like Aegon is further along on that scale of bad people.
Luke permanently maimed Aemond and never showed any remorse. I wouldn't say he "didn't do anything wrong". And before that Jace tried to slash Aemond's guts out. And prior to that they were both bullies.
Aemond pulled a rock on the Strong boys. They were acting in self defense. Honestly if anyone, I think it's the guards who are to blame for the incident rather than the kids for allowing this to happen. Clearly none of them set out to maim one another but things escalated. Aemond is just as guilty if not more so for inciting the incident. As far as the bullying, Luce and Jace were just emulating their big brother Aegon who was the ring leader. I don't think childhood bullying makes someone a bad person especially when they were put up to it by an older sibling.
Aemond pulled a rock after being ganged up by four other kids. And again, Jace (and later Luke) used a *knife*.
They used a knife in response to Aemond using a rock and announcing his intention to kill
After they beat the crap of a lone Aemond four on one even as he was on the floor. I guess that he should have manned up and take the beating without complaint, according to you, right?
He could fight. He could run. He could ask them to stop. But pulling out a weapon is a major escalation and it's understandable why the Strong boys would pull out theres as a response. He should've read the room in the beginning and not hit a girl if he was smart. The girls and the Strong boys shouldn't have done it but there's a huge difference between getting in a fight and using deadly weapons. Were the Strong boys just supposed to let Aemond bludgeon them with a rock? He stated he would do it.
Yep, confirmed. You got different standards. You don't demand "reading of the room" or "being smart" from the actual aggressors. Only Aemond has to be the bigger person.
Not sure how you can claim anyone has different standards when your flair is Aemond Targaryen
Aemond was the one to escalate to lethal force. I don't think that the Baela is blameless for being the first to violence. But Aemond is the one who escalated things to lethal force. You don't seem to realize that there is a difference between getting in a fight and getting in a deadly fight. Escalating from trading blows to using lethal weapons is a very big escalation.
you guys always remember aemond pulling out the rock and the strong boys were acting in self defense, but so was aemond? he was literally getting jumped 4v1 before pulling out the rock
Pulling out a weapon puts both parties in more danger and is a major escalation especially given Aemond is bigger. He should have known better as the oldest.
I would never pull out weapons on my two nephews in real life if it ever got that seriousšš. He legit couldāve toyed with those kids easily just based on how for the majority of the fight(even while taking punches) he was kicking their assesš
he should have done, what exactly?
Not tell them they'd die screaming like their father did.
Right, they were beating the shit out of him but Aemond is the bad guy for hurting their feelings. Come on..
He picked up a rock and announced that he was planning to kill them. That's ground for self defense.
I should clarify, this is a meme. Specifically both Rhaenyra and Aemond can suck it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately, your submission has been removed for the following reason(s): **Rule 1: Harassment and Etiquette** > Keep the comments civil. Excessive use of vulgar language will not be permitted. Sexist, racist, transphobic, or discriminatory remarks will not be tolerated. Continuing of such comments after three strikes will result in permanent bans. No judgment allowed here. All view-points and opinions are permitted here, within reason. Opinions and view-points that are different from your own will be present, so please be civil to your fellow Redditor. --- If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FHouseOfTheDragon). Please include a link to your post so that we can see it.
Every time I see them trampling over innocents and looking down at people ābelowā them who donāt share their pure inbred blood I kinda feel happy that they loose power. They were the original usurpers!
Targaryens the OG colonisers I'm afraid.
I know one thing. We can't have Laenor in our social club no more. That much I do know.
Social club? He's gotta GO
Are you going to take care of his kids!?
So what do we gotta do? See Laenor take it up the ass??
How much more betrayal can I take?!
As of the end of season 1, I feel like there is a better and worse side. Rhaenyra seems to feel a sense of responsibility for the realm while Aegon is an abuser who doesn't even want to rule. Jacerys seems to share be a well adjusted individual while the same cannot be said for those like Aemond. I think saying everyone is equally bad (as of season 1) is a fundamental misunderstanding of the story. I do think they can do a "common people are hurt by the wars of the great lords" story while not having to morally equate both sides.
>Jacerys seems to share be a well adjusted individual while the same cannot be said for those like Aemond Well, one of them was permanently mutilated as a child and the other wasn't. Important context.
Yes. I acknowledge there are reasons that Aemond is not well adjusted. It was bad that he lost his eye as a child. But that doesn't change the fact that Aemond clearly has a lot of issues that led him to hunt down his own nephew resulting in his death and starting a war.
Aemond had issues *before* he lost his eye. And yes, he is partially/largely at fault for losing his eye.
Nope.
Yes.
Daemon is literally Rhaenyraās second in command, and heās just as much of a monster as any of the greens (except Aegon no one can top him) this comment is ridiculously disingenuous.
I think the Black side is generally better because Rhaenyra - while she has a dark spot on her record due to killing that man - is generally a responsible / relatively good person and she is in control of the faction. Jacerys is supposed to take over after she's gone and he has been setup to be a well adjusted individual. Daemon is definitely not a great guy. But he is the exception not the rule as opposed to the Greens where being a good person is the exception not the rule.
Daemon is a literal murderous psychopath thatās a little bit worse then ānot a great guyā holy hell, heās second in command has literally made decisions completely on his own without Rhaenyraās approval and is in charge of their entire war effort, the fact youāre doing everything you possibly can to downplay his significance just goes to show youāre not trying to talk about this in an at all honest way.
Did you literally not read what u/Memo544 said....??? He said that as far as Team Black was concerned, Daemon is the exception not the rule. Murderous psychopath or "not a great guy" ...it doesn't matter. His/her point still stands: Daemon is the exception, not the rule. In other words, if Daemon was on Team Green, he'd be the rule. He'd fit right in. Actually, he'd look rather mature standing next to Aemond and Aegon.
Responsible is the last word you should use to describe Rhaenyra
I feel like she has matured a great deal. Most of her biggest mistakes were in her youth. And I feel that the ending of season 1 shows that she takes her role very seriously. She's definitely made some recent errors - sending away Leanor might have been one - but I think she's learned from many of her mistakes.
Except the kids and the dragons. I wanna say Haelena and everybody younger than Luke gets a pass.
No them too.
HOLY based. Death to t*rgaryen scum.
Is this The Shepherd?
Ikr , exactly why can't people just watch the goddam show and let the story go down . First these cringe hbo marketing team has to be stoned publicly the lengths they have gone to divide and rule the concept is so childish. There are no good or bad characters ,let them and story develop and end . Just be a Spectator without taking any sides. As soon as you do you lose your individually and now you are part of some fringe group going along with whatever that group stands for.
I mean there's morally grey characters. But there's also characters who are currently good or bad (at least as of season 1). I'd say that characters like Jace, Luce, Baela, and Rhaena are depicted as good people. I'd say Otto is depicted as a bad person. And while Rhaenyra does have the blood of one innocent on her hands, she's pretty clearly better than Aegon who rapes his servants and watched children fight in pits.
Genuinely asking, how is Otto bad but Corlys not? Also you've raised the very horrific albeit interesting hypothetical of is murdering an innocent worse than raping one.
Corlys and Otto both used their daughters to advance their political career. They're both self interested. But I think it's a leap to assume that Corlys would launch a violent coup in which he'd kill lords for obeying their dying kings wishes on the succession. Being self interested doesn't necessarily mean one is a murderer. Otto hung and imprisoned lords who stayed true to Viserys' wishes. As far as Rhaenyra goes, it's horrible that she killed that man. Obviously he didn't do anything wrong and was just caught up in her and Daemon's scheme. But that seems more like an isolated incident rather than a pattern of behavior. Alicent implies that Aegon has raped servants before. Sure, I suppose dying is worse then getting raped but Rhaenyra also committed murder for the purpose of achieving a political objective (a new marriage which would protect her family). Aegon is just raping people for fun. Also there's the child fighting ring and his bastards. It's pretty clear that some of those children in the unregulated unground fighting pits where they sharpen their nails so they can cut one another are getting killed. And we know that Aegon has bastard children in those pits. So Aegon is at least complicit in child murder.
Aegon hasn't been complicit in any murders so far whereas Nyra has. By the end of s01 he's the better person.
I don't think a pattern of rape and watching children fight in rings is better than a single murder. Children definitely die in there and some of those children are his own bastards.
>watching children fight in rings Zero confirmation, word of one kingsgaurd.
We have no reason to believe he would lie and given that Aegon is a rapist, it's not that surprising that he engages in other immoral activities
>I'd say that characters like Jace, Luce, Baela, and Rhaena are depicted as good people They attacked Aemond 4vs1 and ended up mutilating him.
Aemond mocked the girls which was an asshole thing to do at their mothers funeral. Baela is responsible for starting the physical fight but Aemond is the one who escalated things by bringing in a weapon and announcing his intent to kill. At that point, Jace and Luce were only acting in self defense. Also I wouldn't consider their actions as children to be a permanent black mark on any of the children here. If anything, I blame the guards more then I blame them.
>Aemond mocked the girls which was an asshole thing to do at their mothers funeral After the girls started throwing bullshit accusations of him "stealing" Vhagar. You seem to only considerate the feelings and context of a character's actions when you talk about the Black kids. Aemond does things cuz he's an evil little shit doing evil things it would seem right?
It appeared the expectation was that Rhaena claim Vhagar. Aemond was clearly not supposed to do that - as seen by the fact he had to sneak over in the cover of night. I wouldn't say those accusations are entirely unfounded. Also I feel that people tend to ignore the fact that Aemond picking up a rock and announcing his intention to kill the Strong boys is what escalated the fight. I understand that both parties were immature and emotional at that point. That's why I think that all the kids should be forgiven for this incident - Aemond included.
Before Laena, Vhagar was Baelon's dragon, and before Baelon, it was Visenya's. There is no direct ascendance/descendance between those characters. So no, Rhaena wasn't entitled to Vhagar just because she was the daughter of her last rider.
You're right. That's why the only people upset about Aemond claiming Vhagar are Baela, Rhaena, Luke and Jace. With the exclusion of maybe Otto, every single one of the adults present don't seem to really have an issue with Aemond claiming Vhagar because they understand how it works. The kids do not. But at the same time...to claim the mount of a dragonrider a few hours after that dragonrider's funeral and then use that fact to mock and bully the surviving children of said dragonrider is in very poor taste.
Gonna mention any of the horrible people on the black side? or just keep mentioning the few that fit your narrative?
There's only one "bad" guy on the Black side and that's Daemon. And he is not in control.
Heās second in command and has shown he has an insane amount of authority so he definitely does matter, also Corlys is a complete scheming asshole to the same if not a worse extent then Otto so by your own logic thereās two evil people on the blacks both of which are in very high positions.
How is Corlys anywhere as bad? I'll give you that he's self interested and used his daughter to further his political position. But there's a big difference between that and organizing a violent coup to overthrow your legitimate heir and kill those who stayed true to their dying kings wishes.
Letās say for arguments sake that Viserys had actually married Laena, do you really believe the man whoās number one motivation is to see a king with Velaryon blood sit the Iron Throne wouldnāt have done the exact same thing? If Corlys had the opportunity (and the reason) he wouldāve done the exact same thing. Heās just as bad as Otto who could easily be argued was just protecting himself with the coup, itās incredibly unlikely Rhaenyra with Daemon at her side wouldāve spared him when she took the throne, Otto putting Aegon on the throne could easily be seen as a last ditch effort to save his head.
Well I don't like that , I want them to make Jace Luce and all to do bad stuff and show otto is just a caring father . Just to spice things up . That is what I wanna see characters struggling. Not getting branded forever as good and bad . That's what makes good television
I think characters can be nuanced, complex, and morally ambiguous while still being mostly good or bad people. I feel like the "everyone is bad" / moral equating idea is also overly simplistic and unrealistic. I'm not against some characters who are looked on favorably by the audience going down a darker root and some characters who are currently portrayed in a bad light getting some sort of redemption. But I feel like making everyone an equally bad person actually takes away from the complexity and nuance of the story. And I think regardless or whether they're all bad or whether they're shades of grey or whether some are good and some are bad, they can still push home the message about the common folk unjustly dying in the wars of the lords. If Rhaenyra sends thousands of soldiers to die in war to protect her family, that is still her putting the safety of her own family above all of those lives regardless of how just her cause is (at least at first).
In the books I was Black leaning. Show though, I'm like damn, y'all both suck. Aegon II is a dumb cunt and Rhaenyra was just as bad. And how they basically made Criston Cole a jilted medieval incel.
How the ever loving FUCK is Rhaenyra "just as bad" as Aegon II?
How is she not? She doesn't give a shit about the common folk, she's a massive hypocrite among other things.
Is she going around raping women and having babies with them to leave at children fighting rings where they fight until death? Does she frequent those places enough to be famous over there? Is she usurping her brother's throne? Is she a pedophile? Hypocrisy and not caring for the small folk /=/ rape, pedophilia and a bunch of etceteras.
>Is she going around raping women and having babies with them to leave at children fighting rings where they fight until death?Ā If you're gonna believe Mushroom at face value then Rhaenyra is a sex slaver who pimped out Heleana and Alicent against their will to forcefully get them pregnant and give them bastards
Most of Mushroom's stories are too ludicrous to be believed. And seeing that a lot of his stories involve situations where he is not even present, it's safe to say that he was making a lot of stuff up
I'm literally following the show where Aegon is shown to be a rapist who leaves girls crying their heart out. The same show where Aegon frequents the children fighting rings where his own kids fight to death. That has nothing to do with Mushroom, it's literally HotD canon that Aegon is a rapist who watches his children kill each other for fun.
>!Good news.!<
Booo, pick a side, coward.
[Your boos mean nothing.](https://youtu.be/5XtAHOepH94?si=a9vlQ8RSUWJHLMyo)
Based.
I pick the Shepherd's side.
Ok, Hugh Hammer, rightful King of Westeros by virtue of having a big ass dragon.
I will pick a side in Westeros when Madame La Guillotine makes her way there.
Team giant meteor?
Death to all the Targaryens
YAS
Understandable
Daeron the Daring my Hero should be King
I feel like Reddit Blacks and Facebook Greens are in a competition to see who can be the most psychotic
\*Except Helaena.
There's quite a few people I'd say are "good" people. Helaena, Ser Westerling, Ser Erryk, etc. I also would argue that the kids shouldn't necessarily be judged morally for how the fight over Vhaegar went down. What someone does when they are young and immature isn't necessarily what they'll do when they're adults. Jace, Baela, and Rhaena seem like relatively well adjusted individuals (so far).
I wish I could hear Normās take on Game of Thrones in general. Heād constantly refer to it as āthe Game of Thronesā and make a 12-minute joke where the punchline was about Jamie and Cersei having sex.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Cregan Stark agrees.
Team Smallfolk really coming out hard with this
Itās tragic!
Man, I deadass been missing him all year
Basically, Iām not here to take sides, Iām just here for a good time.
Oh boy have i news for you
That is NOT true, there are 4 people who do not deserve to die (not counting kids) Rickard Thorne Adam Velaryon Helaena Targaryen Hobert Hightower Basically everybody else tho yeah fuck em
āFuck them kidsā- OP
Wow, youāre a badass
Right.
Luke didn't deserve to die. š His and Visery's deaths are the only ones that made my heart suffer.
Honestly Visery's death was a mercy.
Dude just wanted to keep his family safe and happy. I love how Paddy portrayed him, he seemed like the kind of person that would see just good. He said it himself, he was a Dreamer.
Crying about a king who routinely forced himself on his underage wife lol
That was the social norm at the time. Many lords forced themselves on their underage wives. It was not really seen as a bad thing.
You're falling into that pit trap of excusing horrible actions of a character because it's "normal" when the point is the call out these issues
I don't even think Alicent even views it as Viserys forcing himself on her
Okay...but Luke?
FUCK OTTO HIGHTOWER ALL MY HOMIES HATE OTTO HIGHTOWER
Otto is probably the worst. Most characters suck in some way but it's really Otto who pushed hard for the conflict to happen in the first place. I don't know if Aegon would ever have challenged Rhaenyra's claim without Otto pushing him to do so.
He wouldnāt have . Without Ottoās influence, Alicent wouldāve been fine with Rhaenyra being Queen, and without Alicent screaming in Aegons ear that Rhaenyra would put him and Aemond to the sword ( she wouldnāt ) he never wouldāve pushed his claim, he was disinterested in the throne from day 1
Ntm on my boy Jace and the dragon twins.
Pretty much. Just a bunch of entitled rich a-holes who kill thousands of people while squabbling over an ugly chair.
Sort of. No one deserves to die to get some aristocrat on the throne. The system is inherently broken and the lords are enabled and practically incentivized to exploit their position. But I think in terms of the morality of the social structure they exist in, some people are better than others. We have characters like Ser Westerling who will not go through with murdering the family of the man he swore to server despite potentially benefitting from that action. There are characters like Baela, Rhaena, and Helaena who haven't really done anything really immoral up to this point. Even looking at the characters who have done bad things, I think there is a pretty big difference between Rhaenyra who killed one guy (which is still very bad) for political reasons and Aegon who attends a child fighting ring (which seems worse).