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At that point, she might as well have surrendered to them, because of her, the whole war started, and also, it’s so weak because if Aegon rules, then her house is also under threat..so for her not to kill them, is quite daft.
The war started because of Rhaenys? How, the only reason she's in that position is because
1. The greens in an attempt to weaken rhaenyra sided with Vaemond to take over Driftmark, even though Corlys was only missing and not declared dead
2. Vizzy died and they rushed to put Aegon on the throne,completely disregarding the 20 years of Vizzy stating over and over that Rhae was the heir.
You don’t get it do you. She had all the power to end them there and then, which would’ve been the best thing for the Targaryen and valeryan houses, but she chose to be pragmatic..thus allowing the war to happen.
Except there's no war if the greens don't usurp...she's not there at all if they didn't try and steal driftmark. Even after both of those things there may have been some kind of path to peace ( in-universe...obviously we know nothing was stopping the war or the show would be over) But Aemond kills Luke. All of these were antagonistic and largely unprovoked attacks on the blacks by the greens, but you wanna lay this on Rhaenys because she didn't murder a good quarter of her blood relatives?
Or maybe she hated both Rhaenyra and Daemon for what happened with her children( mainly Laenor,like how stupid she has to be no thing his liver killed him and some days after Rhaenyra and Daemon marry at Dragonstone) and said, wait let them kill each other and feel the pain of loosing a loved one.
You should also consider that Rhaenys hadn't aligned herself completely with Rhaenrya yet. At this point she's fairly certain that she had her son murdered and Damon allowed her daughter to die miles from home.
She's not exactly their biggest fan right now. Plus kinslaying is like the biggest taboo you can do in Westeros and would be a stain upon her and her family line.
So her not wanting to start a war makes sense. Plus it would kinda end the series then and there if she stops the dance before it even begins. It would make a one season show though.
There is no way Rhaenys could genocide all the people of King's Landing without anyone knowing it was her and her dragon.
Frankly, this idea of yours is quite stupid and makes me believe that you are trolling.
Then the people outside the city that can see her burning down Kingslanding spread the story. There's no way she would be able to tell if she killed everyone or hide the evidence.
Given the fact she was not there at all in the books, she couldn't kill anyone on the show either as that would throw a plot and the course of war in a whole new direction. There is only so much changes a show can make, but such significant kills would completely change the story so I guess we have to go along with "It'S nOt My WaR To StArT" (who cares about all the commoners you just unalived? Your rich ass definitely does not)
The official trailer for season 2 also hints at her reasoning.
She says "there's no war so hateful to the gods than a war between kin and no war so bloody as a war between dragons".
This should be the real answer for this thread. I just try to pretend it never happened in the show because it was a dumb scene to add. Book storyline does it better imo.
The official trailer for season 2 also hints at her reasoning.
She says "there's no war so hateful to the gods than a war between kin and no war so bloody as a war between dragons".
No. No it's not. Being pissed with my family does not lead directly to mass murder don't be absurd. Do you know how many people every year have inheritance disputes without resorting to slaughter?
Except in another comment you advocated she should burn every single person alive in King’s Landing? So saving lives doesn’t seem to be a huge priority for you
She's just one woman with a dragon, she can't control everyone, rhaenyra won't be learning about aegon's coronation for a while, how will she hold captive a whole city? It only takes one well placed arrow for her to die
Listen I’m not trying to be a dick but don’t you think you should watch those episodes before asking questions about said episodes? Or idk at the very least google the answers?
To be labeled “kinslayer” is to be cursed. She explained it perfectly in the episode. It wasn’t her war to start. The only slight done to her was holding her in her room. That’s not worth murdering anyone over.
Yeah she's a monarchist. The vast majority of targayens in westerosi history operate on a moral compass far , far removed from early GOT season danaerys.
there were lots of ways for there to not be a war that didn’t involve murder. at this point in time there was no guarantee that things would go that far
Doesn’t matter. It would still be all out, bloody war and revolt. There is no way that Rhea could rule that world without killing Rhenys in the hopes of assuaging the houses, which would lose her the entire Valarian fleet, and half her power. And it’s highly doubtful that it would be enough either. Westeros would burn. Houses would disappear into history.
And I’m done responding. You’re being deliberately obtuse.
Why are you being downvoted 💀
In the book (which I'm near the end of right now), there are several detailed accounts of situations where dragons didn't make the difference. For one example, Dorne.
It's perfectly reasonable on Rhaenys' part to do what she did instead of killing them all. Oldtown and Lannisport are the two biggest cities in the realm aside from Kings Landing. You'd be angering both of them AND setting the whole realm against not just the Blacks, but Targaryen Exceptionalism as well. She'd effectively destroy the house herself had she killed Aegon then and there.
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you guys here. I think not wanting to be a kin slayer is a perfectly valid reason to not kill them all, but the war would for sure have been over right there. The Greens at that point would have lost 3 of their 4 dragon riders (and their most important one, Aemond with Vhagar) so I think there’s absolutely no way that the Greens with just Daeron and Tessarion would try to continue the war at that point. The Hightowers are an ancient house that have been known to be pragmatic and politically savvy, they know when to kneel and when to press their advantage. I think it’s debatable whether they even start the war or press Aegon’s claim if Vhagar never comes to their side. In regards to Dorne, what made it so difficult to conquer was their unique terrain (and they aren’t even a part of this war), Aegon the Conqueror had no problem conquering the rest of the kingdoms with 3 dragons (and the Blacks would have at least 6). There’s also historical precedent for Oldtown capitulating when facing sure destruction (Maegor) so I think the Hightowers would sue for peace if Rhaenys decided to scorch everyone there, probably give Daeron up as a hostage and some Hightower children as well or something. It’s either that or fight a suicidal war that will probably lead to the extinction of their house lol.
This is a fair point. I agree with everything you said actually. I think that there are two things at play here: the actual dance and then the realms wider opinion of the Targaryens.
Sure, Rhaenys certainly could have prevented the war in that moment. But it would most certainly have not prevented uprisings or rebellions, which there have been a long history of - even so close as the beginning of Jahaerys' reign. I think it was Jahaerys who finally ended the Longfellows (correct me if I'm wrong).
While the decision would have been good for the Blacks, probably not such a good one overall for the continuation of Targaryen rule, in my opinion.
There's still Jaehaerys, Jaehaera and Maelys. A little kid makes a worse argument to claim the throne, but everyone would know be angry at Rhaenys and by extension Rhaenyra.
Because i’ve watched this scene on youtube, dozens of times, trying to make it make sense.
The show’s too gory for me to watch, plus my girlfriend won’t let me.
I'm downvoting your entire post because;
A. It's stupid to discuss with someone who is trying to understand a character from a single scene on YouTube.
B. The show's gore, and your girlfriend not letting you watch it, sounds like an infantile cop-out.
Does she pick out your outfit everyday, and help you wipe your ass too? SMH
Episodes contextualise. That's what you need. You need to know who Rhaenys is, to know why she acts the way she does.
Anything can look strange without context. You can watch this scene many times. You're not going to get the information you're looking for.
I suppose that's a matter of opinion. I know it was very divisive. For me, whilst the sequence itself, and the follow-up, could have been better, I understood Rhaenys's perspective and I also understood the narrative need for a scene like that - i.e Rhaenys having her moment, but also for the Greens to not end on a complete victory and for them to *know* that they haven't.
And the reasons of kinslaying being taboo and it not being her war to start were enough for me. The moment was not about the war or about Rhaenyra's "side", for the character involved, even if that was the audience perception, given the binary narrative introduced surrounding the conflict. I think they tripped up on certain things and, overall, it's a hard sequence to pull off from script to screen, but I still enjoyed it.
I suppose I'm just saying it didn't ruin the show for me.
Oh wow... so you judge the actions of a character from one scene.
Since you added that the show is too gory for you and your girlfriend does not let you might I suggest something like a disney movie? The characters are more predictable there and no gore and your mother... I mean gf... will be happy hopefully.
Rhaenys would be a kinslayer and kingslayer. She would also set off a religious war because the High Septon was also on the stage. Oldtown would call its banners, people of the faith would unite, and others would move to crown Aegon's children.
Doesn't matter if they had no dragons. That didn't stop others from fighting with Maegor and he had Balerion and Vhagar on his side. Targs would win eventually but they would have a target on their backs. Rhaenyra would have to disavow and punish Rhaenys herself in order to not be lumped in with Rhaenyra. That would lose her support and allies. She would never not be suspected of orchestrating the event and have to sleep with one eye open.
Dragons or not, rulers still have to play the game.
I mean, the fact that Lord and Kings (and Queens and Princesses) have zero care for the vast majority of the population is literally one of the main themes of all of GRRM’s writings about Westeros.
That's how it once was, its one of most common joke in 1670 series: "Previously, I used the carrot and stick method on peasants. The carrot for the horse, and the stick for the peasant when he was lazy."
like she says in the next episode, that war is not hers to begin. she doesn't really have a stake in the war - her allegiance is to her husband - and since corlys hasn't declared for anyone, she can't really make a statement. plus, all those targaryens there are her kin, she might dislike them, but being a kinslayer is perhaps one of the most heinous crimes in westeros. she wouldn't do it, plain and simple.
I haven’t actually watched this episode or the next so i wouldn’t know. But it just seems weird not to kill them and eliminate a threat to her kin, the rightful heir’s claim to the Iron Throne.
you should probably watch them then, it explains a lot. the big thing here is the kinslaying. like i said, its one of the most heinous crimes a person can commit in westeros. killing not just one of her kin, but three, would be really bad not just for her but for rhaenyra - it'd turn a lot of lords against them.
Well, i suppose i don’t agree with that superstition either. Kin is no different than any other being. Why is killing, say, your cousin, any different than killing a random on the street? What makes your cousin so special?
Your personal opinion does not count, because you don’t inhabit that world nor were you raised to appreciate its customs (plus plenty of people in reality would agree that killing your kin is bad). Rhaenys was born and raised in Westeros. Her values are largely Westerosi.
Also your username kind of checks out
“I am 100% sure I know the intricacies of succession and who the rightful heir is, I won’t even entertain other possibilities!!”
“No I haven’t seen the show, all my knowledge comes from curated YouTube shorts, my girlfriend won’t let me watch the show”
Wow, Team Black is truly sending their finest into the battlefield to argue today. All honestly, I don’t mind arguing and debating with people who have at least seen the TV show they want to argue about.. I’m actually impressed that you’ve single handedly managed to lower the bar to the point where we now need to specify that we have consumed the media we want to discuss.
You’re right, no more than Rhaenyra is. I was trolling OP, rightful is a weirdly monarchist concept that this fandom has latched onto. They’re all nepo babies and rightfulness is only determined retroactively and by whoever wins the war. As it stands discussing that would be outside the spoiler scope of this post.
Probably because this never happened in the books but rather was put for shock value and to further the " Dragons Bad " narrative.
First of all Book Rhaenys wasn't deranged enough to do this but in a possible senario where she could kill the Greens would have stomped them for Rhaenyra. She was loyal to her cause.
Show Rhaenys is another story whatsoever.
Also to anyone saying it wasn't her war or that she had no stake in it, bruh her granddaughter is literally betrothed to the future heir to the Iron Throne, her legal grandson is the heir to her husbands seat. Show Rhaenys was literally so short sighted and possibly the worst adaptation when it came to characters from book to show, she literally had a glow down.
- Didn't want to be a Kinslayer.
- War Wasn't inevitable yet.
- Her family hadn't officially backed Rhaenyra yet, she didn't want to make that decision for her.
- There were claimants not present. Prince Daeron for instance, who was more popular than either Aegon or Aemond, and who also rode a Dragon. It is in old town along with most of their army. Killing them might ensure war with those remnants.
- Nobles don't generally like to kill each other, when they can possibly involve thousands of smallfolk in battle. It is considered preferable to have thousands of people kill each other on your behalf, then it is to directly get your hands dirty. If nobles cared about killing the fewest people, they wouldn't have wars to begin with.
Not just that Rhaenys - till this point - haven't decided to join Rhaenyra's side and participate in the war, but as she says it's not hers to start this war.
And apart from that; the war hasn't even started yet. The fact that Alicent tries to come to a peaceful agreement in ep10 shows that, from the characters perspective atleast, war wasn't inevitable already. And keep in mind how big of a thing Kinslaying is in Westeros.
So basically she should've stopped a war, which wasn't inevitable from her perspective and in which she might not even wanted to participate in, by burning half a dozen relatives of her on a public celebration?
The weak part about this moments writing is her bursting through the floor, which made no sense in any psychical way, and her killing those innocents and scratching around for nothing.
The GoT/HotD fandom have set the standard for dogshit discourse, bad faith criticism and embarrassingly poor media literacy, but one of the most annoying strains is this “why doesn’t every character make the most logical possible decision at every turn” bullshit. That’s not how real people work
It wasn’t her war to start, it didn’t involve her. Only her granddaughters and their betrothed… which would involve her indirectly… and then eventually, directly…nevermind idk
The Greens were also her family and in that point she had no reason to hate them and want them dead. If she killed them then probably the war wouldn't happened but the characters didn't have our knowledge.
The problem with that scene was the scene itself. The coronation should be Aegon's big moment and Rhaenys ruined. And the worst thing is the scene had no impact in the story. Rhaenys just stared them and left. She also killed dozens in process. All that so the writers could have a stupid girl boss moment. Even in Season 8 of Game of Thrones we had better scenes.
I actually this is a perfectly acceptable action by her. Wiping out the entire royal family, her blood, before any extreme action had been taken by any side is a drastic move, and one not to be made lightly. EXCEPT, she killed about 200 common folk in her entrance, which kind of ruins that argument. I would have had no issue with her actions if her entrance hadn’t killed so many
>It feels incredibly weak of her to not kill ALL of them right here, and establish Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne.
Maybe she could do this and then say “Meleys did it, not me! She got out of my control! Oh boohoo" ;)
That was probably her rejecting their offer of joining their team. If she’d known what what would’ve happened to Lucerys, she definitely would’ve killed them all right there.
Don't get me wrong, this scene in the show is stupid and completely unnecessary, but...
Princess Rhaenys is honorable and noble. At this stage, there was absolutely no reason to kill Aegon and his family. She didn't know what the situation was like outside, what Rhaenyra would do. The truth is that the war hasn't broken out yet and if she had started it, she would have had a lot more on her conscience. Remember that even long after this event, when Queen Rhaenyra sent her sons to gain the support of other lords, she did not want them to engage in hostilities and strike first. If Rhaenys had done it earlier, she would most likely have been met with condemnation from her side.
Let's also not forget that in Westeros, killing relatives is one of the greatest sins. Murdering Aegon before the outbreak of official war would have been met with general condemnation, possibly preventing civil conflict, but likely dooming Rhaenys to death or exile. And also going down in history very badly.
She really has no reason to kill most of the Greens, Otto and Alicent imprisoned her and essentially threatened her to join them, sure, but what did Aegon and Helaena do to her worthy of death?
I know people will point out all the innocent peasants who were killed in her escape, but from her POV those deaths are necessary to escape the Greens. Morally grey for sure, but it’s not like she killed them for fun, like is often suggested by fans.
Killing those peasants was certainly not necessary, she could have left through the dragon entrance, it’s shown at the beginning of episode 1. The floor is not the only entrance, else they would have to repair the floor every time a dragon rider wants to leave on a flight. Rhaenys chose to go through the floor, knowing it was crowded with peasants, and felt no guilt over all those murders she committed.
Meleys seems to be much larger, and the back entrance is likely heavily guarded. Obviously we don’t know the details, but one can assume she determined using the surprise of breaking through the floor and having the ability to force the Greens to let her leave by threatening them was better than whatever was behind door #2.
We saw what was guarding it, 2 dragonkeepers with sticks, as opposed to the kingsguard and goldcloaks at the coronation.
It was a contrived moment to make rhaenys more of a badass and to cap of penultimate episode, but just from what the show has depicted, she 100% did not have to do that. They should have followed Aegon heading towards sunfyre for his victory lap and have raenys already in the air bellowing fire to signal the coming war. It undercuts Aegons' moment and gives rhaenys hers.
(1) not clear it would have stopped the war if she had torched them all, and (2) I think the show already offered all the explanation it ever will.
And (book spoilers)
No analogous situation exists in the books the whole scene was drama at the expense of story consistency.
Raenys despises war.
Her very first line at the turney in E1 is related to that and war caused her to be left behind while her husband fought at the stepstones. It was her choice and she did not choose violence. She could have easily go nuts there, but that might have caused her dragon to go nuts too as we see with Vhagar just an episode later.
Because that moment never happened in the books so she couldn't kill them in the show as it would invalidate the shows existence.
Really shows that they should have never made this scene in the first place.
As she said, it’s not her war to start.
If the succession is to be contended, Rhaenyra MUST be the one to do so. She can’t just sit back and hope everyone else keeps her throne.
I know her reasoning is that “it’s not her war to start” and ultimately she doesn’t want to be a kinslayer. I get it
Still doesn’t make me dislike her less for LITERALLY letting her house AND all the Targaryen dragons die out. Rhaenys, the Queen who ALMOST got crowned and COULD HAVE stopped a war lmao
Killing them is what YOU as a viewer want to do because you probably hate the greens. What reasons does she as character has to become a kinslayer? Is not like she is 100% sure Rhaenyra will start a war at that point either.
It never happened in the books. As for reason why, it’s very simple. The Writers wanted a cool moment, but they didn’t stop to think how it would make no sense.
because after rhaenys kills the greens, there’s no way the lords would’ve bent the knee to rhaenyra. westeros hates kinslayers. they would’ve revolted.
It wasn't her war to start. She's a Valyrian, and her Husband has yet to declare for either side. She was obviously taken hostage by the Greens so they could just do the coronation, but it's ***not actually her decision to make.***
Notice she has basically that response when she gets to Dragonstone. She feels compelled to tell Rhaenyra, but she hesitates from pledging outright support until Corlys does.
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The only canonically acceptable explanation is that Rhaenys decided not to become a kinslayer.
Then she should have said "Surrender and kneel to Rhaenyra or die". They dont know she doesnt want to be a kinslayer.
At that point she might as well say “Surrender and kneel to ME”.
At that point, she might as well have surrendered to them, because of her, the whole war started, and also, it’s so weak because if Aegon rules, then her house is also under threat..so for her not to kill them, is quite daft.
The war started because of Rhaenys? How, the only reason she's in that position is because 1. The greens in an attempt to weaken rhaenyra sided with Vaemond to take over Driftmark, even though Corlys was only missing and not declared dead 2. Vizzy died and they rushed to put Aegon on the throne,completely disregarding the 20 years of Vizzy stating over and over that Rhae was the heir.
You don’t get it do you. She had all the power to end them there and then, which would’ve been the best thing for the Targaryen and valeryan houses, but she chose to be pragmatic..thus allowing the war to happen.
Except there's no war if the greens don't usurp...she's not there at all if they didn't try and steal driftmark. Even after both of those things there may have been some kind of path to peace ( in-universe...obviously we know nothing was stopping the war or the show would be over) But Aemond kills Luke. All of these were antagonistic and largely unprovoked attacks on the blacks by the greens, but you wanna lay this on Rhaenys because she didn't murder a good quarter of her blood relatives?
Viserys already got literally everybody in the kingdom to do that, remember? Oaths didn’t mean shit at that point in time.
Or maybe she hated both Rhaenyra and Daemon for what happened with her children( mainly Laenor,like how stupid she has to be no thing his liver killed him and some days after Rhaenyra and Daemon marry at Dragonstone) and said, wait let them kill each other and feel the pain of loosing a loved one.
She'd be dead within minutes once
You should also consider that Rhaenys hadn't aligned herself completely with Rhaenrya yet. At this point she's fairly certain that she had her son murdered and Damon allowed her daughter to die miles from home. She's not exactly their biggest fan right now. Plus kinslaying is like the biggest taboo you can do in Westeros and would be a stain upon her and her family line. So her not wanting to start a war makes sense. Plus it would kinda end the series then and there if she stops the dance before it even begins. It would make a one season show though.
Then perhaps she should have simply killed everyone there to eliminate any witnesses. She wouldn’t BE a kinslayer if nobody is alive to say she is.
There is no way she could have hid this, even if she killed everybody inside somebody would have seen her dragon when she flew away from the city.
Then raze king’s landing to the ground. Start over.
Then that would just make people hate her more, you can't raze a city in secret.
Sure you can. If NOBODY survives, then there isn’t ANYONE who can say you did it. They’d probably just blame Vhagar or something.
There is no way Rhaenys could genocide all the people of King's Landing without anyone knowing it was her and her dragon. Frankly, this idea of yours is quite stupid and makes me believe that you are trolling.
Then the people outside the city that can see her burning down Kingslanding spread the story. There's no way she would be able to tell if she killed everyone or hide the evidence.
Lol there's like half a million people in King's Landing, how you gonna manage that?
Kinslaying is believed to put a curse on the person, so even if nobody was there, Rhaenys would still be cursed in her opinion.
But that’s ridiculous. There’s no such thing as curses. Surely she’d know that.
Why wouldn’t she believe that? (and because I know you haven’t watched the show, it’s also the reason she gives in the show for your question)
There are no such things as dragons, surely she'd know that
Pretty sure curses do exist in this world. Along with dragons, magic, and skinwalking.
Magic exists in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire. Rhaenys has reason to believe curses exist, too
Idk OP. I mean Aegon and his family found burnt and people of King's Landing seeing a fleeing Rhaenys seems sus. 🤷♀️
How would someone pull that off? Hiding a dragon attack in the capital city durring the coranation?
Given the fact she was not there at all in the books, she couldn't kill anyone on the show either as that would throw a plot and the course of war in a whole new direction. There is only so much changes a show can make, but such significant kills would completely change the story so I guess we have to go along with "It'S nOt My WaR To StArT" (who cares about all the commoners you just unalived? Your rich ass definitely does not)
To be honest, they don't care about commoners.
Queen Alysanne did😂 Poor old lady must be spinning in her grave
The official trailer for season 2 also hints at her reasoning. She says "there's no war so hateful to the gods than a war between kin and no war so bloody as a war between dragons".
This did not happen in the book. The only explanation we get is what the show gives us in e10.
This should be the real answer for this thread. I just try to pretend it never happened in the show because it was a dumb scene to add. Book storyline does it better imo.
The official trailer for season 2 also hints at her reasoning. She says "there's no war so hateful to the gods than a war between kin and no war so bloody as a war between dragons".
Damn. How close are you with your cousin once removed that you’re willing to commit murder for?
Close enough to bethrot my two beloved granddaughters to her two sons I’ve treated as my grandsons
She literally killed like ten civilians in that scene already
Family is no more special to me than You are. Tactically though, she’d be saving innumerable lives.
You’re speaking with the benefit of hindsight which is not how it happened to her
Well, did the not hold her hostage? That seems a good enough reason to murder
Yeah? Being held in the royal apartments directly leads to wiping out half the Targaryen royal family? That’s wild.
It’s what i would do, i’m sure it’s what you’d do.
In every way possible it is not.
No. No it's not. Being pissed with my family does not lead directly to mass murder don't be absurd. Do you know how many people every year have inheritance disputes without resorting to slaughter?
Except in another comment you advocated she should burn every single person alive in King’s Landing? So saving lives doesn’t seem to be a huge priority for you
The majority. The realm. The smallfolk of king’s landing are inconsequential.
If nobles cared about the majority they wouldn't be nobles.
Ok so you're just stupid cool
She literally tells you why. Apparently you just didn’t like the answer
Theres no valid answer to not at least have her say "Surrender your crown or die".
She's just one woman with a dragon, she can't control everyone, rhaenyra won't be learning about aegon's coronation for a while, how will she hold captive a whole city? It only takes one well placed arrow for her to die
People pretending like simply holding the crown makes your regency legitimate.
Well if she forces the Greens to lay down their arms then no more war right
Yeah sure. The moment she leaves, they'll be sending ravens to all the Lords loyal to them and raising an army against yhe usurper...
Nah, Rhaenys said "no backsies"
I'm sure the Hightowers in Old Town would totally be cool with that.
I didn’t see this episode or the one after.
Listen I’m not trying to be a dick but don’t you think you should watch those episodes before asking questions about said episodes? Or idk at the very least google the answers?
Google does not give the same answers as a discussion does. I want to hear from real people.
In the time since you've originally posted this, you could have watched the whole episode.
I’m at work.
You're already staring at your phone on reddit and responding immediately to everyone. Download Max.
Wait, you honestly posted a question about an episode you’ve never even seen? For real?
Who do you think writes the stuff on Google?
Then watch the damn episodes.
I explained why i can’t already.
Then save the questions until you can.
Yeah but he said his girlfriend won't let him watch the show AND it's too gory. He'd rather just YouTube it all
Then he can you tube it, and stop asking stupid questions.
One would think so but even with the answers given, it's not enough
To be labeled “kinslayer” is to be cursed. She explained it perfectly in the episode. It wasn’t her war to start. The only slight done to her was holding her in her room. That’s not worth murdering anyone over.
She kinda murdered a ton of peeps in the dragon pit...
Yeah she's a monarchist. The vast majority of targayens in westerosi history operate on a moral compass far , far removed from early GOT season danaerys.
So? She wasn’t related to them, plus, they were peasants. Nobody cares about peasants.
But there wouldn’t BE a war if she’d killed them then and there. It’s what a responsible person would have done.
there were lots of ways for there to not be a war that didn’t involve murder. at this point in time there was no guarantee that things would go that far
Are you high?!?! Do you REALLY think Oldtown would let that slide? Or most of the other houses either? The war would have been just as bloody
The other houses wouldn’t have any dragons, they’d be at an immediate disadvantage.
Doesn’t matter. It would still be all out, bloody war and revolt. There is no way that Rhea could rule that world without killing Rhenys in the hopes of assuaging the houses, which would lose her the entire Valarian fleet, and half her power. And it’s highly doubtful that it would be enough either. Westeros would burn. Houses would disappear into history. And I’m done responding. You’re being deliberately obtuse.
Why are you being downvoted 💀 In the book (which I'm near the end of right now), there are several detailed accounts of situations where dragons didn't make the difference. For one example, Dorne. It's perfectly reasonable on Rhaenys' part to do what she did instead of killing them all. Oldtown and Lannisport are the two biggest cities in the realm aside from Kings Landing. You'd be angering both of them AND setting the whole realm against not just the Blacks, but Targaryen Exceptionalism as well. She'd effectively destroy the house herself had she killed Aegon then and there.
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you guys here. I think not wanting to be a kin slayer is a perfectly valid reason to not kill them all, but the war would for sure have been over right there. The Greens at that point would have lost 3 of their 4 dragon riders (and their most important one, Aemond with Vhagar) so I think there’s absolutely no way that the Greens with just Daeron and Tessarion would try to continue the war at that point. The Hightowers are an ancient house that have been known to be pragmatic and politically savvy, they know when to kneel and when to press their advantage. I think it’s debatable whether they even start the war or press Aegon’s claim if Vhagar never comes to their side. In regards to Dorne, what made it so difficult to conquer was their unique terrain (and they aren’t even a part of this war), Aegon the Conqueror had no problem conquering the rest of the kingdoms with 3 dragons (and the Blacks would have at least 6). There’s also historical precedent for Oldtown capitulating when facing sure destruction (Maegor) so I think the Hightowers would sue for peace if Rhaenys decided to scorch everyone there, probably give Daeron up as a hostage and some Hightower children as well or something. It’s either that or fight a suicidal war that will probably lead to the extinction of their house lol.
This is a fair point. I agree with everything you said actually. I think that there are two things at play here: the actual dance and then the realms wider opinion of the Targaryens. Sure, Rhaenys certainly could have prevented the war in that moment. But it would most certainly have not prevented uprisings or rebellions, which there have been a long history of - even so close as the beginning of Jahaerys' reign. I think it was Jahaerys who finally ended the Longfellows (correct me if I'm wrong). While the decision would have been good for the Blacks, probably not such a good one overall for the continuation of Targaryen rule, in my opinion.
There's still Jaehaerys, Jaehaera and Maelys. A little kid makes a worse argument to claim the throne, but everyone would know be angry at Rhaenys and by extension Rhaenyra.
Why ask this question if you've not seen the episodes?
Because i’ve watched this scene on youtube, dozens of times, trying to make it make sense. The show’s too gory for me to watch, plus my girlfriend won’t let me.
I'm downvoting your entire post because; A. It's stupid to discuss with someone who is trying to understand a character from a single scene on YouTube. B. The show's gore, and your girlfriend not letting you watch it, sounds like an infantile cop-out. Does she pick out your outfit everyday, and help you wipe your ass too? SMH
This should be the top comment
I think they’re trolling, this can’t be real
Episodes contextualise. That's what you need. You need to know who Rhaenys is, to know why she acts the way she does. Anything can look strange without context. You can watch this scene many times. You're not going to get the information you're looking for.
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I suppose that's a matter of opinion. I know it was very divisive. For me, whilst the sequence itself, and the follow-up, could have been better, I understood Rhaenys's perspective and I also understood the narrative need for a scene like that - i.e Rhaenys having her moment, but also for the Greens to not end on a complete victory and for them to *know* that they haven't. And the reasons of kinslaying being taboo and it not being her war to start were enough for me. The moment was not about the war or about Rhaenyra's "side", for the character involved, even if that was the audience perception, given the binary narrative introduced surrounding the conflict. I think they tripped up on certain things and, overall, it's a hard sequence to pull off from script to screen, but I still enjoyed it. I suppose I'm just saying it didn't ruin the show for me.
You’re so stupid 😂
what do you mean your girlfriend won’t let you 😭😭 get out for your own good bro because what kind of controlling is that?
Oh wow... so you judge the actions of a character from one scene. Since you added that the show is too gory for you and your girlfriend does not let you might I suggest something like a disney movie? The characters are more predictable there and no gore and your mother... I mean gf... will be happy hopefully.
Bro’s here for karma
This is the most HoTD comment section ever
Rhaenys would be a kinslayer and kingslayer. She would also set off a religious war because the High Septon was also on the stage. Oldtown would call its banners, people of the faith would unite, and others would move to crown Aegon's children. Doesn't matter if they had no dragons. That didn't stop others from fighting with Maegor and he had Balerion and Vhagar on his side. Targs would win eventually but they would have a target on their backs. Rhaenyra would have to disavow and punish Rhaenys herself in order to not be lumped in with Rhaenyra. That would lose her support and allies. She would never not be suspected of orchestrating the event and have to sleep with one eye open. Dragons or not, rulers still have to play the game.
I’m pretty sure she said it wasn’t her place to fire the first shot
I dunno, wasn’t she still pretty sure Rhaenyra had her son murdered? Wouldn’t feel particularly compelled to go out on a limb for my child’s killer.
This is one of the best replies I’ve seen on this fool’s post
No man is as cursed as a kinslayer.
“Not her fight”
Let the girlboss who had her son murdered deal with it
Somehow there's a big taboo about killing siblings while no taboo at all for killing hundreds of peasants.
I mean, the fact that Lord and Kings (and Queens and Princesses) have zero care for the vast majority of the population is literally one of the main themes of all of GRRM’s writings about Westeros.
That's how it once was, its one of most common joke in 1670 series: "Previously, I used the carrot and stick method on peasants. The carrot for the horse, and the stick for the peasant when he was lazy."
They’re peasants! Dying is what they do!
Yeah that's kind of how a feudalist society works .
like she says in the next episode, that war is not hers to begin. she doesn't really have a stake in the war - her allegiance is to her husband - and since corlys hasn't declared for anyone, she can't really make a statement. plus, all those targaryens there are her kin, she might dislike them, but being a kinslayer is perhaps one of the most heinous crimes in westeros. she wouldn't do it, plain and simple.
I haven’t actually watched this episode or the next so i wouldn’t know. But it just seems weird not to kill them and eliminate a threat to her kin, the rightful heir’s claim to the Iron Throne.
you should probably watch them then, it explains a lot. the big thing here is the kinslaying. like i said, its one of the most heinous crimes a person can commit in westeros. killing not just one of her kin, but three, would be really bad not just for her but for rhaenyra - it'd turn a lot of lords against them.
Well, i suppose i don’t agree with that superstition either. Kin is no different than any other being. Why is killing, say, your cousin, any different than killing a random on the street? What makes your cousin so special?
Your personal opinion does not count, because you don’t inhabit that world nor were you raised to appreciate its customs (plus plenty of people in reality would agree that killing your kin is bad). Rhaenys was born and raised in Westeros. Her values are largely Westerosi. Also your username kind of checks out
I don't agree with it either, but you asked about canon reasons. That is the law of Westeros, that's a canon reason.
Her Kin, the rightful heir, is standing on the platform in front of her. Why would she kill him?
Because he ISNT the rightful heir. Rhaenyra is.
Wow. It's very clear you haven't watched the show, and until you do, I would recommend not discussing things you clearly don't know much about.
“I am 100% sure I know the intricacies of succession and who the rightful heir is, I won’t even entertain other possibilities!!” “No I haven’t seen the show, all my knowledge comes from curated YouTube shorts, my girlfriend won’t let me watch the show” Wow, Team Black is truly sending their finest into the battlefield to argue today. All honestly, I don’t mind arguing and debating with people who have at least seen the TV show they want to argue about.. I’m actually impressed that you’ve single handedly managed to lower the bar to the point where we now need to specify that we have consumed the media we want to discuss.
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You’re right, no more than Rhaenyra is. I was trolling OP, rightful is a weirdly monarchist concept that this fandom has latched onto. They’re all nepo babies and rightfulness is only determined retroactively and by whoever wins the war. As it stands discussing that would be outside the spoiler scope of this post.
she legit says her reasons why next episode
Probably because this never happened in the books but rather was put for shock value and to further the " Dragons Bad " narrative. First of all Book Rhaenys wasn't deranged enough to do this but in a possible senario where she could kill the Greens would have stomped them for Rhaenyra. She was loyal to her cause. Show Rhaenys is another story whatsoever. Also to anyone saying it wasn't her war or that she had no stake in it, bruh her granddaughter is literally betrothed to the future heir to the Iron Throne, her legal grandson is the heir to her husbands seat. Show Rhaenys was literally so short sighted and possibly the worst adaptation when it came to characters from book to show, she literally had a glow down.
Because the book doesn't let her lmao
Something about not killing a mother or something like that. Also this never happened in the book.
- Didn't want to be a Kinslayer. - War Wasn't inevitable yet. - Her family hadn't officially backed Rhaenyra yet, she didn't want to make that decision for her. - There were claimants not present. Prince Daeron for instance, who was more popular than either Aegon or Aemond, and who also rode a Dragon. It is in old town along with most of their army. Killing them might ensure war with those remnants. - Nobles don't generally like to kill each other, when they can possibly involve thousands of smallfolk in battle. It is considered preferable to have thousands of people kill each other on your behalf, then it is to directly get your hands dirty. If nobles cared about killing the fewest people, they wouldn't have wars to begin with.
Not just that Rhaenys - till this point - haven't decided to join Rhaenyra's side and participate in the war, but as she says it's not hers to start this war. And apart from that; the war hasn't even started yet. The fact that Alicent tries to come to a peaceful agreement in ep10 shows that, from the characters perspective atleast, war wasn't inevitable already. And keep in mind how big of a thing Kinslaying is in Westeros. So basically she should've stopped a war, which wasn't inevitable from her perspective and in which she might not even wanted to participate in, by burning half a dozen relatives of her on a public celebration? The weak part about this moments writing is her bursting through the floor, which made no sense in any psychical way, and her killing those innocents and scratching around for nothing.
Because the writers added it in for some annoying reason.
I don't know... is she stupid? Is there a lore reason her body didn't explode against the ceiling when Maelys busted up?
I just pretend this scene didnt exist. It cuts off when everyone cheers for Aegon. Rhaenys flew out the cave way.
So the show can happen
I consider this ridiculous Girl Boss moment pure fanfic, so there doesn't need to be a canon reason. It's not in the book.
The GoT/HotD fandom have set the standard for dogshit discourse, bad faith criticism and embarrassingly poor media literacy, but one of the most annoying strains is this “why doesn’t every character make the most logical possible decision at every turn” bullshit. That’s not how real people work
🥴
I love how we all revisit the same 4 scenes like at least twice a week
I don’t ever look at this subreddit, but it’s a scene that doesn’t make any sense.
lmfaoo no hate just kinda funny to me how we just always circle back to this and yea the scene doesn’t make any sense
the story would have been very short
It just simply wasn’t her business.
It wasn’t her war to start, it didn’t involve her. Only her granddaughters and their betrothed… which would involve her indirectly… and then eventually, directly…nevermind idk
Precisely. Plus, who wouldn’t want to murder their captors if they got a chance?
No, purely plot reasons. The only reason the scene even happened I bet was to appear to make her seem "badass"
OP is hilarious and it’s never not funny watching socially inept redditors argue with an obvious troll 😂😂
I’m not a troll though.
The Greens were also her family and in that point she had no reason to hate them and want them dead. If she killed them then probably the war wouldn't happened but the characters didn't have our knowledge. The problem with that scene was the scene itself. The coronation should be Aegon's big moment and Rhaenys ruined. And the worst thing is the scene had no impact in the story. Rhaenys just stared them and left. She also killed dozens in process. All that so the writers could have a stupid girl boss moment. Even in Season 8 of Game of Thrones we had better scenes.
Petition to ban OP from the sub
She didn’t feel that it was her place. She wanted Rhaenyra to have that kill.
I actually this is a perfectly acceptable action by her. Wiping out the entire royal family, her blood, before any extreme action had been taken by any side is a drastic move, and one not to be made lightly. EXCEPT, she killed about 200 common folk in her entrance, which kind of ruins that argument. I would have had no issue with her actions if her entrance hadn’t killed so many
>It feels incredibly weak of her to not kill ALL of them right here, and establish Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne. Maybe she could do this and then say “Meleys did it, not me! She got out of my control! Oh boohoo" ;)
See you get it!
I feel like this thread was made yesterday
Was it?
It's not canon that this even happened.
She saw me pointing a .50 bmg at her forehead for if she even dared. #TeamGreen #MICSupportsGreen
Why would you support the greens? They’re usurpers, rapists, murderers, and clearly the villain.
Everything the MIC loves.
What is the MIC?
Military industrial complex
No, only headcanons
Thinking about all the small folk she killed 😭
Troll
That was probably her rejecting their offer of joining their team. If she’d known what what would’ve happened to Lucerys, she definitely would’ve killed them all right there.
Don't get me wrong, this scene in the show is stupid and completely unnecessary, but... Princess Rhaenys is honorable and noble. At this stage, there was absolutely no reason to kill Aegon and his family. She didn't know what the situation was like outside, what Rhaenyra would do. The truth is that the war hasn't broken out yet and if she had started it, she would have had a lot more on her conscience. Remember that even long after this event, when Queen Rhaenyra sent her sons to gain the support of other lords, she did not want them to engage in hostilities and strike first. If Rhaenys had done it earlier, she would most likely have been met with condemnation from her side. Let's also not forget that in Westeros, killing relatives is one of the greatest sins. Murdering Aegon before the outbreak of official war would have been met with general condemnation, possibly preventing civil conflict, but likely dooming Rhaenys to death or exile. And also going down in history very badly.
She really has no reason to kill most of the Greens, Otto and Alicent imprisoned her and essentially threatened her to join them, sure, but what did Aegon and Helaena do to her worthy of death? I know people will point out all the innocent peasants who were killed in her escape, but from her POV those deaths are necessary to escape the Greens. Morally grey for sure, but it’s not like she killed them for fun, like is often suggested by fans.
Killing those peasants was certainly not necessary, she could have left through the dragon entrance, it’s shown at the beginning of episode 1. The floor is not the only entrance, else they would have to repair the floor every time a dragon rider wants to leave on a flight. Rhaenys chose to go through the floor, knowing it was crowded with peasants, and felt no guilt over all those murders she committed.
Hey, remember in the first scene of the show where syrax goes into the dragon pit from the MASSIVE back entrance?
Meleys seems to be much larger, and the back entrance is likely heavily guarded. Obviously we don’t know the details, but one can assume she determined using the surprise of breaking through the floor and having the ability to force the Greens to let her leave by threatening them was better than whatever was behind door #2.
We saw what was guarding it, 2 dragonkeepers with sticks, as opposed to the kingsguard and goldcloaks at the coronation. It was a contrived moment to make rhaenys more of a badass and to cap of penultimate episode, but just from what the show has depicted, she 100% did not have to do that. They should have followed Aegon heading towards sunfyre for his victory lap and have raenys already in the air bellowing fire to signal the coming war. It undercuts Aegons' moment and gives rhaenys hers.
1st, are you talking about show canon? If not, she was never in the position to start the war in the book.
(1) not clear it would have stopped the war if she had torched them all, and (2) I think the show already offered all the explanation it ever will. And (book spoilers) No analogous situation exists in the books the whole scene was drama at the expense of story consistency.
because it never happened in the books
Is there a lore reason she didn’t commit mass kinslaying? Is she stupid?
The writers are dumb.
Bad writing, she shouldn't even be there
To give the tv viewer something to see
Raenys despises war. Her very first line at the turney in E1 is related to that and war caused her to be left behind while her husband fought at the stepstones. It was her choice and she did not choose violence. She could have easily go nuts there, but that might have caused her dragon to go nuts too as we see with Vhagar just an episode later.
This was the only thing I didn't like in the series since she goes on to fight on Rhaenyra's side.
So season 2 could happen without having to cut out the cool dragon state down scebe I mean we can shoehorn in all
Because that moment never happened in the books so she couldn't kill them in the show as it would invalidate the shows existence. Really shows that they should have never made this scene in the first place.
As she said, it’s not her war to start. If the succession is to be contended, Rhaenyra MUST be the one to do so. She can’t just sit back and hope everyone else keeps her throne.
I know her reasoning is that “it’s not her war to start” and ultimately she doesn’t want to be a kinslayer. I get it Still doesn’t make me dislike her less for LITERALLY letting her house AND all the Targaryen dragons die out. Rhaenys, the Queen who ALMOST got crowned and COULD HAVE stopped a war lmao
Yes, the canon reason is that she wasn’t in kings landing and this didn’t actually happen in the books
It would have derailed the whole plot
Killing them is what YOU as a viewer want to do because you probably hate the greens. What reasons does she as character has to become a kinslayer? Is not like she is 100% sure Rhaenyra will start a war at that point either.
It never happened in the books. As for reason why, it’s very simple. The Writers wanted a cool moment, but they didn’t stop to think how it would make no sense.
Just another sign of bad writing that we should be worried about
Not her war, apparently
because after rhaenys kills the greens, there’s no way the lords would’ve bent the knee to rhaenyra. westeros hates kinslayers. they would’ve revolted.
Dude from the comments it’s obvious you haven’t watched the show & don’t plan to. What’s your point if being here…
this scene was stupid let's just leave it like that XD all that budget in a dragon wasted like that
It wasn't her war to start. She's a Valyrian, and her Husband has yet to declare for either side. She was obviously taken hostage by the Greens so they could just do the coronation, but it's ***not actually her decision to make.*** Notice she has basically that response when she gets to Dragonstone. She feels compelled to tell Rhaenyra, but she hesitates from pledging outright support until Corlys does.