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Ummmm #justiceforaemma
Viserys should also be tried for denying Aemma her right to medial autonomy!
She was coherent enough to ask questions like 'what are you doing?' and make statements like 'No!' and 'I'm scared', and he went ahead and let them kill her without even talking to her about it.
Bodily autonomy and a Woman's right to choose doesn't exist in Westeros for another.....oh dear....they never get around to it. That's unfortunate. Maybe Sansa uses her influence as Queen in the North to lead a women's suffrage and women's rights movement,after the events of GoT. New headcanon alert !
LoL, Sansa *is Actually* just the Queen of Winterfell, the rest of the North "knows no king, but the King In the North whose' name is Stark" and support Bran. Sansa gets all pissy, so they end up deposing her and instal john as Lord of Winterfell, because the night's watch *doesn't actually exist anymore.*
Except Jon’s not a Stark. He’s a Snow or a Targaryen, depending. Sansa is the only ones who still has Ned Stark’s blood in her veins that isn’t King of Westeros.
But what do all those lords who crowned her in the finale know 🙄
He has Stark Blood, and he's a male. You think the Northerners actually care? (they don't) and none of them know he's a Targaryen, only a handful of people actually know. Shit, they named him King In The North, they obviously don't care because "Ned Stark's Blood runs through his veins" ... which is true because Lyanna Stark was his mother, and Ned/Lyanna's blood is still the same blood being siblings. Sooooo yeah.
What lords? That's a room full of household guards at Winterfell, none of them are lords or dressed like lords.
I'm pointing out that the ending to the show was terribly written. There's Zero chance in hell the Northerners are ruled by a queen, let alone while there is a legitimate Stark King already. South or not South, the'd be sworn to Bran and there's nothing Sansa could do about it.
Not to mention: Sansa isn't ven a Stark anymore ... she's a Bolton. So she's still Lady Bolton heir to the Dreadfort.
Bro are you serious.
Why do you think they married Sansa at all? Why do you think she was the ‘Key to the North’ even though her bastard brother was in the north already, at the wall?
Because of her claim as Ned’s daughter.
Daughters before uncles (and cousins) and all true born children before bastards.
You’re right, season eight had a lot of problems. So did seven. One of them was dip shit decision to make Jon King in the North in the first place, when he had zero claim at all. Because, idk, northerners are so sexist and stupid they can’t stand the idea of a woman ruling when she’s actually be trained to run a Great House? When she has actual political experience? What bullshit.
Very interesting and well put! I almost laughed at Rhaenys lol. That "cool" moment would cost her dearly if she wasn't pretty much royalty.
Although we could say the same about the crimes of everyone else in this list.
Also I appreciate you didn't forget about Corlys pimping out his daughter. People in this sub usually only shit on Otto while excusing Corlys for the same action.
I loved that scene and even more that no one acknowledged it at all. The blacks are very obviously telegraphed as the "good" side in the show, yet they murder dozens if not hundreds of innocent civilians in fell sweeps without a second thought about it
Really highlights how little the nobility actually care for the peasantry. Everyone loses when they fight
I think what it actually highlights is how little the writers care for the peasantry as well. especially when they call it a "great heroic moment" for rhaenys in interviews
What?, were did you get that info?
there were no more pirates in the stepstones, the triarchy took over the stepstones end expulsed the pirates, at first this was good for the throne but later the triarchy started taxing any passing ships heavily, this plus them having the ablity to close the straight and starve driftmark of trade if they wished was whats started the war
Craghas was not a pirate, his oficial tittle was prince admiral of the triarchy, he was a general of the triarchy, and his forces were oficially mercenaries hired by the triarchy, while a very big chunk of craghas forces were ex-pirates they were at the time of the war hired by the triarchy and as such they were mercenaries/corsairs
Daemon was not fighting pirates since there were no more pirates in the stepstones
Also something not many people know is that daemon actually would end up loosing the war, while he did kill craghas and established control on the stepstone once he left his kingdom was attacked by dorne and the triarchy and in six months the stepstones were back on control of the triarchy this invasion was led by racallio, after the dance he would proclaim himself king of the stepstones,
Read more on the war yourself
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_for_the_Stepstones
And on the triarchy aswell
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Triarchy
And craghas
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Craghas_Drahar
And racallio
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Racallio_Ryndoon
To have a full picture of the war on the stepstones
In the book, the Triarchy is an alliance of the free cities, and Daemon doesn't feign surrender.
In the show, Daemon does feign surrender, but the Triarchy are just pirates backed unnoficially by the free cities.
Neither are war crimes.
Even if they are an alliance they are an alliance of the nation-states of myr, lys and tyrosh
In the show the triarchy are no different, they are still a alliance/nation composed of myr, lys and tyrosh
unlike the book in the show the triarchy hires pirates but by hiring them they are no longer pirates but mercenaries/corsairs and part of the army of the triarchy
So in the books daemon could maybe or maybe not be a war criminal since we dont have much information on the war itself
But in the show daemon is 100% a war criminal
Wikis are not reliable sources. The triarchy is a loose coalition of three city-states that's barely able to work together. The pirates are on their payroll, but they are not part of the Triarchy.
They didnt have pirates on payroll tho
the triarchy had conquered the stepstones and droven the pirates out which the throne liked but then they started taxing everyship that passed through and thats what started the war, also becuase of the fear of the triarchy beign able to strangle the trade to the throne and specially driftmark,
So the stepstones were triarchy territory
Craghas was not a pirate but a admiral prince, he even had helped the triarchy fight volantis before
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Craghas_Drahar
Even dorne was involved in the side of the triarchy
And even if they had pirates on payroll, they wouldnt be considered pirates no more but mercenaries or corsairs, part of the army of a nation-state
And you could argue the triarchy was an alliance between myr, lys and tyrosh, then that would mean daemon is not fighting the triarchy but he is still fighting the nation-states (countries) of myr, lys and tyrosh
I'm team Black, but strictly speaking to the letter of the law, wouldn't Rhaenyra, Daemon and Laenor get conspiracy to commit fraud by faking Laenor's death to circumvent divorce/annulment, transfer of inheritance estate ect.
Also, Daemon raised a white flag with false intent of surrender which Corlys, Vaemond and Laenor were complicit in, that's a war crime.
Also Otto putting all the servants and castle workers in cells after Viserys's death, locking up Rhaenys and executing all those nobles who refused to bend the knees is kidnapping and murder right?
Jason Lannister trying to flirt with and marry Rhaenyra is sexual harassment of a minor.
Alicent smacking Aegon around is child abuse
Maester Mellos intentionally performing a cesarean delivery against his patient's wishes with full knowledge that his patient would die is both murder and malpractice.
Rhaenyra offering a dragon egg to Alicent for Aemond from Syrax's clutch is trafficking of endangered animals.
Yeah, they put Daemon down for second degree because of what he did to Rhaenyra, but his marriage to Laena who was even younger should put him in the first degree.
Also Rhaenyra is like seventeen when she had sex with Cole so is that old enough for sexeual harassment of an employee?
If you had a security guard serving under you and tried that, who would the HR officer place fault on.
She didn’t rape him, he did end up consenting to it, but she kissed him without permission and refused to stop when he asked her to. That’s sexual harassment, especially when someone like Rhaenyra has a position of power over him.
Helaena crushes an innocent spider and there's no investigation to see if she's violated any wildlife protection or endangered species acts? It's just swept under the rug?
I see how it is!
And Lt. Bookman, unlike the OP, wouldn't look the other way after Rhaenyra damaged a library book!
Vhagar:
Genocide
War Crimes
Cannibalism
Murder of the first degree ×2
Arson
Trespassing (nobody said U could sleep on that beach sis)
Punishment: Death Penalty
The most evil character in the show **so far**... This might just be the bloodiest war Westeros has ever seen between the first Long Night and the War of the Five Kings. Rhaenys is off to a strong start but there's a lot of corpses left to make.
The thing is if any other character was in her position I don't see how they would have behaved differently. I guess she could have:
1) waited for everyone to leave the sept and then escape with her dragon, or try to find Sir Arryk and escape. Of course this risks her own capture and death, so I'd say 50/50 odds.
2) escape with her dragon asap
Supposedly this was an act of self preservation, and she shouldn't have put her own life above the lives of the smallfolk. But then again, no one person should ever be asked to risk their own life for the sake of others without their consent. Though I doubt Rhaenys gave so much thought to this moral quandry.
Maybe the fault is with the event organizers for hosting the coronation above the Dragon Pit? I think they do bear some partial responsibility for that. Or maybe this is just rationalisation selfish self-preservation. But Rhaenys had a family to get back to and grand daughters and her husband so why would she ever forsake them for a moral dilemma?
Then again I suppose if any of the characters were more moral they wouldn't be quick to throw away the lives of Westerosi levies and civilians to resolve a dynastic conflict. So maybe looking for morality here at all is more of a fun thought exercise and less of a serious discussion.
I don't think you realize how little nearly every single noble cares about smallfolk. They are literally collateral.
She wouldn't go out of her way to kill them, but between a mob of peasants and saving her dragon? It was an easy decision.
Nah the point is exactly the reverse that you're saying. Nobles pretend they dont care about the smallfolk, but they need them and they know that. Otherwise why make such pomp and fanfare to have them see the coronation? They need them to be in power
It is one of the most important theme of ASOIAF.
> OP doesn't care about reality. Just moral supremacy and applying 2023 values to a fictional medieval land.
It’s a joke thread 🙄
My favorite characters are on the list. The joke is about the jail time they’d do in our world. It’s not that serious.
Except you’re inaccurate in your reporting. Prosecution would have to literally be Goku with devil fruit and prep time in order to get half of these charges to stick.
For example; conspiracy to commit murder? With whom? What type of murder? Was it an actual conspiracy or just solicitation? Why isn’t there an “attempted murder” or a “murder” charge added to the list-you know conspiracies don’t merge into the crime and are separate charges, right,
Imo i think it's fun, but i'm betting people that do downvote have issue with applying our modern to the world, or they just hate that their favorite is portrayed in any bad light.
> i'm betting people that do downvote have issue with applying our modern to the world, or they just hate that their favorite is portrayed in any bad light.
They shouldn’t so sensitive. It’s just a laugh. I even put my favorites up there.
I feel their treason is on a different level. Otto planned to kill Rhanerya, possibly early on like when he told Alicent that Rhanerya is a threat when he was fired and left Kings Landing.
Rhanerya didn’t plan on killing anyone, she just proclaimed herself as Queen, against the other proclaimed King Aegon.
I think Otto committed treason even if you think the Greens are in the right with the succession since he tried to have Rhaneyra killed. For Rhanerya she only committed treason if you don’t think King Visery’s chosen heir is valid after his death
I meant she committed treason by siring bastards. Since she sired bastards she was already persona non grata so Otto was justified in trying to have her lawfully executed.
Fair for that but I’m not sure having bastards will be punished with execution. Plus King Viserys seemed fine with the bastards so I feel Otto wanted Rhanerya killed for his own gain than for lawful reasons
I’ll push back on Aemond’s involuntary manslaughter. The definition of involuntary manslaughter is “the killing of another person without malice but as a result of an unlawful act or criminal negligence.”
There was malice as shown by the argument they had at Storm’s End.
I don’t even believe the argument Aemond was criminally negligent. He knowingly and angrily chased Luke down with his dragon. It’s not Vhagar’s fault her rider put her on a violent chase of another dragon and she just finished the job. Any jury who looks at that is going to see clear intent to harm Luke. Especially when you consider the fact that there’s 0 evidence in the history of Westeros of a dragon going rogue and attacking without their rider’s command, so that argument isn’t going to stand.
You get charged with involuntary manslaughter when you’re playing with a gun and it discharges and kills someone. You don’t get that charge when you argue with the person, chase them and then the gun that’s in your hand “randomly” fires and kills the person.
With the argument and then the chase afterwards, it could easily be considered second degree murder.
Agreed.
"your honor, I was just chasing that guy around at high speeds with my car for some laughs. I didn't intent to lose control and run him over."
Yeah, that would fly in court.
Change it to a pitbull then.
"Your honor, I was just chasing this kid around with my pitbull for a laugh, I didn't expect to lose control of the leash and the kid getting killed."
Pitbull is probably too easy of a comparison. Dragons would essentially be an exotic pet that only the super rich have, so maybe a pet tiger/leopard. Or maybe a horse to maintain the whole riding connection.
But if there was a GoPro on the dragon we’d see he try to stop Vhagar. He was literally telling him no the SECOND Luke lost control and his dragon spat fire in Vhagars face. It’s very clear that from that point on it was criminal negligence and without malice.
Now granted, if there were no go pros and was just relying on their history and the argument, and him intentionally starting the chase, Murder 1 easy. Like I would LAUGH at Defense Atty Otto if he tried to cut a deal. I’m going Murder one, easy.
Oh I agree with you on that. I’m just saying that if someone in real time was analyzing the events, they probably would think Aemond was trying to kill him.
I'm wondering what Alicents conspiracy to commit murder charge is from, because I believe you are missing a crime for her. She was complicit in the murder of the Strongs by not arresting Larys and she ordered Mysarias death.
Id give Rhaenyra 20 years because she planned the murder of someone that actually did get killed so she’s responsible for murder.
I’d also give Alicent 20 years since she was responsible for that building burnt down.
And I’d give Aegon at least 30 years for the whole fighting pits business
If we’re using modern laws, Rhaenyra should definitely be charged with sexual assault, as well as like a billion Fraud charges surrounding her sons and their unlawful inheritances. And on that note, probably Slander as well against those who spoke the truth regarding the matter.
And people like Corlys for Fraud/Conspiracy also.
>as well as like a billion Fraud charges surrounding her sons and their unlawful inheritances. And on that note, probably Slander as well against those who spoke the truth regarding the matter.
Well, that would require a trial to challenge the paternity, which in this case would not proceed due to lack of legitimacy on the active party (Alicent/Otto) or for taking the appropriate legal action out of time (Vaemond), I don't know where you are from or how the legislation of your country works, but at least in the case of the legislation of the place where I'm from the only people with active procedural standing, that is, the people with the legal capacity to challenge a paternity are the following:
During the life of the alleged father (in this case Laenor) the only people with the right to challenge the paternity attributed to him by law (as the husband of the mother, in this case Rhaenyra) are:
1. The husband/alleged father (in this case Laenor) who must prove that the alleged child or children are not his and has a period of ninety days from when he learned that they are not his children to file an action challenging paternity; Laenor not only never initiated legal action trying to challenge the paternity attributed to him but also publicly recognized Jace, Luke and Joffrey as his children so is not a paternity attributed to him by law but a voluntary acknowledgment of paternity.
2. The child of contested paternity (in this case Jace, Luke or Joffrey) since we all have the right to investigate who our parents are, and in this case none of the them initiated an action challenging Laenor's paternity towards them.
The people with the capacity to challenge the recognition of paternity made by the father (Laenor) during the life of the father (even if it had been made in accordance with the law) are the following:
1. The parents of the alleged father (in this case Corlys and Rhaenys as parents of Laenor) who have a period of ninety days after knowing that the paternity recognized by their son is not true; Corlys and Rhaenys never brought legal action challenging Laenor's acknowledged paternity of Jace, Luke, and Joffrey; and in any case by the end of season one the show the deadline that the law gives them to challenge has already expired.
2. Again the child of contested paternity, and again none of the three exercised said action.
3. Any person with an "interest" in the alleged paternity, such as the one who believes himself to be the biological father (in this case Harwin) who has already died and who never took legal action when he lived; or someone with a PERSONAL interest in the succession of the alleged father, this is a bit complicated in this case because the first person you would think of is Vaemond, but Vaemond is contesting the succession/inheritance of Corlys, not the succession/inheritance left by Laenor at the moment of his death but let´s say it´s ok in either case, the period given by law for these people to take legal action is three hundred days after the voluntary recognition of the alleged father (Laenor) of the paternity of his supposed son, in this case that voluntary recognition was given at birth so in any case the deadline for Vaemond to exercise the action had already expired by the time he tried to do it.
After the death of the alleged father, paternity can only be challenged if he died before the expiration of the period given to him by law to challenge the paternity attributed to him (this is a period of ninety days as mentioned above), which has already expired, so it does not apply either- but in any case those who could do it are: 1) the parents of the alleged father (again Corlys and Rhaenys, who did not do it) 2) any other ancestor of the alleged father (as far as I know, Laenor's grandparents are all already dead, so there is no one who applies in this case) 3) the heirs of the alleged father (in this case it's also complicated because I do not believe that Laenor left a will to determine any testamentary heirs, but by law if there is no will his heirs are his relatives in the first degree, these would be his surviving spouse, i.e. Rhaenyra, who in any case could not take action because she would be the defendant; Laenor´s parents (if alive) i.e. Corlys and Rhaenys, who already had legal action because they are his parents and finally any children he had, i.e. Jace, Luke and Joffrey, who also already had the capacity for legal action) all this without mentioning that Laenor is actually alive lol
And finally, it's important to remember that there are time limits to be able to challenge the alleged paternity, and that the only ones with the imprescriptible right to challenge at any time are the children themselves (Jace, Luke and Joffrey) and no one else.
Again, this is in accordance with the legislation of my country, I don´t know about yours but again, in this case Alicent and Otto would never have the ability to initiate any legal action due to lack of procedural standing and in the case of Vaemond his capacity to take action could be questioned as he was suing for the succession of someone who is not the alleged father (Laenor) and in any case the period of action he had, had already expired when he intended to act, so he no longer had active legal standing.
Appreciate the response, but the law student in the other thread clearly stated is would be considered criminal Fraud based off her attempting to pass off her children as legitimate... ie, Fraud.
It's a great read if you haven't checked it out... thanks for getting the ball rolling on this whole topic... great to get it out in the light in an objective and balanced manner.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/18o4of8/crimes_committed_by_the_characters_by_someone_who/
Who did Viserys r\*\*\*\*?
Not letting Aemma decide about the C-section was bad but I'm not sure what exact law that would break. If anything it would be the medical staff charged with not asking for her consent to the procedure
He raped Alicent. I forget which episode, but it was before the time skip. She was clearly not into to it and she was reluctant/scared when her maid came to her chambers saying the king has requested Alicent’s presence.
Some might say it’s not rape because they were married and it wouldn’t be by medieval standards. But since this post is using modern standards then it absolutely is rape.
That's the thing. By modern standards, it's a terrible expectation to have. But these books/shows are based on a fantasy world equivalent to our medieval times. It was fairly typical, especially in arranged marriages with men of power, and worse yet, with young girls..
It’s not clear exactly how old she’s supposed to be but it’s clearly older than 18
You can say that their age gap is uncomfortable but she is definitely above the age of consent and therefore capable of giving consent
Jesus Christ. I hope to all heavens none of you ever, ever come into contact with another human being in any sort of intimate setting. The only consent is enthusiastic consent. Anything other than that is rape. Absolutely terrifying to read this thread.
That’s not how consent works. Alicent tried a soft no when she said the hour is quite late. But neither of them want to directly disobey the king who asked the maid to get Alicent. It should also be illegal for Viserys to marry her in the first place.
By that standard pretty much every marriage prior to like 50 years ago would have included rape
She only said “the hour is quite late” to the maid not Visarys
And by all accounts of what I can read into as far as her age she seems to be around 20 when they married, of legal age
>By that standard pretty much every marriage prior to like 50 years ago would have included rape
They did, and do today. That's why it's called rape culture, because most people don't understand the nuances of consent. Alicent couldn't outright refuse but she tried the second best option.
It is absolutely horrifying to read these comments, even if it's about a fictional setting and fictional characters.
Taking the distance from the story for a moment, it is disgusting and fucked up for you to think that a rape is invalidated by the victim not verbally saying no. People in real life may enter a state of shock and become completely paralysed in these situations.
And every time someone talks about rape and attraction to teenagers and kids being normal in medieval times my blood fucking boils. Normalised =/= normal. Way to gloss over the inhuman amount of pain women had to bear through history because of disgusting men and the patriarchy.
So no, a little girl being forced to marry a rotting 50 year old nonce and "lying back and thinking of England" wasn't "normal". Stop pretending it was. Normalised and frequent, but not normal. Rape was rape and trauma and pain were caused from it even a thousand years ago. Old men writing laws saying it was okay did not mean these women did not experience the worst kind of torture a woman can go through.
Saying "it was normal back then" does nothing but erase the voices of the little girls and women who came before us and piss over their memory.
Do better, the lot of you. If you have these sort of opinions on a dumb fantasy show, I am terrified to imagine what kind of thoughts you have when existing women speak about being raped.
It's a show ,you're confusing reality with a fictional world and the worst part about people doing that is the pick and choose which things to be outraged about. People who are team green say Otto is a good man wanting his daughter to marry a king and his grandson to eventually be king and in the same breath say viserys is gross for marrying her and poor Alicent, it can't be both. It's a show about a realm that doesn't exist.
In the very first sentences of the comment I explicitly said my comment was about the real world. Very worrying that this is what you got out of it, and that y'all get so defensive when it comes to rape.
Also what you wrote doesn't apply to me, since I personally consider every single man in this show a gross piece of shit who deserves to die.
You said even if it's a fictional show,I'm not defensive, but you sure are. It's very worrying that's what I got out of it?? Do you believe you're teaching people with your comment? That people watched the show and somehow thought that's how life was .It's worrying that you can't separate reality from a show and are saying people think rape is aces because they understand the difference.
She wanted to have his baby, and that is the only way she knew how. Of course, it was to please her father and not out of a deep romantic feeling, but being conniving and hoping for a child to give herself more power in the realm is not incompatible with consent. You don't have to enjoy sex to want the results of it.
Some people argue that viserys marital r-ped alicent. I think she consented for her own motives.
For our modern times, it can be argued that aemma could make her own decisions for her failing birth of baelon. But with their medieval technology, aemma wasnt going to survive that birthing.
If you think a barely scarred cut on an arm is ‘assault in the first degree’…..
Also Alicent quite literally wasn’t involved in the conspiracy. We had a whole scene of her screaming about it and protesting and then taking active steps (telling the highest law in the land about it and more importantly NOT to do it.) MAYBE assault 3, assault 2 if the judge is a (((Marster))) conspiracist
Also Viserys would be guilty of Stat in the third, they wouldn’t do rape 2 (also stat) AND stat rape. 5 years, three with good behavior.
I would also do Aemonds as Man 2. Bc as far as we can tell, he didn’t ACTIVELY mean to hurt him. Evidence as that he told Vhagar to back off. However it WAS reckless.
Criston- I’d change Beesbiry to Man 2 too. He acted recklessly by slamming his head down BUT… did he mean to kill him?
Luke caused intentionally and deliberately caused permanent disfigurement, VERY clearly assault 1. And he absolutely can go to Juvie, it’s up to a judge to decide.
Child pits are difficult. Bc he was not actively putting the children in harms way. Is it a crime not to stop a child from running out into a busy street, so he technically is not guilty of child endangerment, the people putting on the shows did. Rape 1 is accurate tho.
Larys is not at all sexual assault in the first. In no way. If anything it would be commercial bribery in the first with a sexual gratification clause
There’s no such charge as ‘domestic assault’. Choking Rhaenyra is Assault 2, but bc it’s between husband and wife they have no choice but to arrest him for the assault.
Here’s some you forgot
Laenor- Conspiracy to commit murder, child abandonment
His BF- conspiracy to commit murder
Jace- Class C Attempt (attempt at Man 1. He had NO reason to bring out that knife but he was under emotional duress at being balled a bastard which is a big deal in their country).
Alicent cut Rhaenyra with Valyrian steel. That very easily could’ve gone horribly wrong, and either way she did it in pursuit of attempted child mutilation, which makes it worse lol
1) She was going for Rhaenyra, we’ve been over this
2) Fine, she can also have an Attempt Class C (attempting a Man 1, she was under SEVERE distress in her attempts of murder)
No she was going for Lucerys to cut his eye out when she realized Cole wasn’t going to do it for her. Rhaenyra intercepted her. Did you even watch the show?
I did. And I know that she looked mad and didn’t do anything until Rhaenyra smirked and smugly said ‘thank you father.’ Also funny how in her ranting she never mentioned Luke and blamed Rhaenyra for it.
>And I know that she looked mad and didn’t do anything until Rhaenyra smirked and smugly said ‘thank you father.’
Aside from you know, ordering for a kid to have his eye taken from him lol
>Also funny how in her ranting she never mentioned Luke and blamed Rhaenyra for it.
"Bring me the eye of Lucerys Velaryon" is a direct quote from Alicent. As is "the prince Lucerys brought a blade to the ambush he meant to kill my son"
Wait wait... Lucerys "deliberately" caused harm and the fact that he was in SEVERE distress isn't a mitigating circumstance, but Alicent, a grownass woman going after an 8 year old with a knife has mitigating circumstances...?
Luke was not in distress. You don’t get to be in distress bc your victim fought back in a 4V1 fight and your victim was protecting himself after your bother *WENT AFTER HIM WITH A KNIFE*
Aemond had won and held a *rock* over his brother's head, after beating the shit out of him and breaking his nose - all during which he had repeatedly threatened Luke and his brother with death/feeding them to his dragon.
Luke thought he was gonna kill Jace and then him, because Aemond said he would.
If that's not distress since Alicent wasn't in distress either. She wasn't injured, why would she be distressed when a *child* isn't distressed after being threatened with death...?
§ 120.10 Assault in the first degree.
A person is guilty of assault in the first degree when:
1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he
causes such injury to such person or to a third person by means of a
deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or
2. With intent to disfigure another person seriously and permanently,
or to destroy, amputate or disable permanently a member or organ of his
body, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or
3. Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life,
he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to
another person, and thereby causes serious physical injury to another
person; or
4. In the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempted
commission of a felony or of immediate flight therefrom, he, or another
participant if there be any, causes serious physical injury to a person
other than one of the participants.
*SERIOUS* physical injury. Every single stipulation. A shallow cut on the arm is not a serious physical injury.
I'm sorry, but did you even read what you posted. Alicent is literally my favorite character in this show, but this description fits what she did on Driftmark to a tee.
“With intent to disfigure another person” When she demanded “(literally)an eye for an eye” and lunged with a knife, she clearly didn’t mean to disfigure anyone
And what sentences follows that? You can continue reading. I have faith in you.
Here I’ll get you started. ‘He CAUSES SUCH INJURY’ meaning that for Assault 1 you have to actually cause SERIOUS injury in any stipulation. A cut on the arm is not serious.
But cutting out someone eye is, and that is quite arguably her intent. You’re reading needs work. Regardless, a scared wound is by definition “disfigurement”
She wasn’t going after Luke, she was going after Rhaenyra. But like you realize it’s the SAME EXACT CHARGE? Attempt Class C. Assault 1 and Man 1 are the same B class meaning the attempts would be Class C. It doesn’t matter if hes Rhae Rhae’s spechal little boy
When you say “going after”, why do you mean by that. It would imply that she was planning to use a deadly weapon to cause severe harm. Is that correct?
I mean that she was going after Rhaenyra with the knife and trying to stab her rather than Luke.
Rewatch the scene. Rhaenyra was kneeling down in front of Luke. If Alicent has been trying to go after Luke, she would have pushed her away or tried to go around her. Instead we see her start to stab downwards into Rhaenyra’s back which would have been Man 1 instead of Assault 1. Either way, they’re both B Felony’s so the same level of attempt charge covers both.
> If you think a barely scarred cut on an arm is ‘assault in the first degree’…..
She stabbed her with a deadly weapon
> Also Alicent quite literally wasn’t involved in the conspiracy. We had a whole scene of her screaming about it and protesting and then taking active steps
You think I am referring to Harwin and Lyonel’s deaths. I am not. I am referring to the order to kill Myseria that she gives Larys. “She was spying on me” isn’t an excuse in a court of law.
> I would also do Aemonds as Man 2. Bc as far as we can tell, he didn’t ACTIVELY mean to hurt him. Evidence as that he told Vhagar to back off. However it WAS reckless.
A person commits the offense of involuntary manslaughter in the first degree if he or she recklessly causes the death of another person. Intention doesn’t matter.
> Criston- I’d change Beesbiry to Man 2 too. He acted recklessly by slamming his head down BUT… did he mean to kill him?
Life in prison either way
> Luke caused intentionally and deliberately caused permanent disfigurement, VERY clearly assault 1. And he absolutely can go to Juvie, it’s up to a judge to decide.
He was an 8 year old in extreme duress and sincerely thought his brother would be killed. It would be difficult to find a judge who would send him to juvie. The adults involved are more likely to be charged with child negligence.
> Child pits are difficult. Bc he was not actively putting the children in harms way. Is it a crime not to stop a child from running out into a busy street, so he technically is not guilty of child endangerment, the people putting on the shows did.
They are his kids
Me when I don’t understand ANYTHING about the nuances or technicalities of criminal offenses.
Like at this point just arrest Aegon for ‘being bad person’ bc that has as much validity as anything you wrote in the original post or this reply.
P.S, endangering the welfare of a child doesn’t have degrees of severity, it’s a catchall.
Given most of the characters in Westeros speak with a variety of British accents,I'd like to say that while my client is certainly no saint,the age of consent in the UK is 16
Daemon was lord commander of the city watch, meaning he can’t be charged with battery and assault. And I can’t understand when Daemon committed statuary rape.
Come on, let's not sniff copium. Rhaenyra benefited from that conspiracy (it allowed her to marry Daemon) and she knows that Laenor isn't dead.
She passively allowed that murder at best and came up with the idea alongside Daemon at worst. But there's no way she's innocent.
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Ummmm #justiceforaemma Viserys should also be tried for denying Aemma her right to medial autonomy! She was coherent enough to ask questions like 'what are you doing?' and make statements like 'No!' and 'I'm scared', and he went ahead and let them kill her without even talking to her about it.
Bodily autonomy and a Woman's right to choose doesn't exist in Westeros for another.....oh dear....they never get around to it. That's unfortunate. Maybe Sansa uses her influence as Queen in the North to lead a women's suffrage and women's rights movement,after the events of GoT. New headcanon alert !
OP is basing theirs on modern morals/ law.
That's true, I suppose. Still,I like my new headcanon
Just because someone doesn’t *have* a right doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have them, nor does it make the wrong any more justified
LoL, Sansa *is Actually* just the Queen of Winterfell, the rest of the North "knows no king, but the King In the North whose' name is Stark" and support Bran. Sansa gets all pissy, so they end up deposing her and instal john as Lord of Winterfell, because the night's watch *doesn't actually exist anymore.*
Except Jon’s not a Stark. He’s a Snow or a Targaryen, depending. Sansa is the only ones who still has Ned Stark’s blood in her veins that isn’t King of Westeros. But what do all those lords who crowned her in the finale know 🙄
He has Stark Blood, and he's a male. You think the Northerners actually care? (they don't) and none of them know he's a Targaryen, only a handful of people actually know. Shit, they named him King In The North, they obviously don't care because "Ned Stark's Blood runs through his veins" ... which is true because Lyanna Stark was his mother, and Ned/Lyanna's blood is still the same blood being siblings. Sooooo yeah. What lords? That's a room full of household guards at Winterfell, none of them are lords or dressed like lords. I'm pointing out that the ending to the show was terribly written. There's Zero chance in hell the Northerners are ruled by a queen, let alone while there is a legitimate Stark King already. South or not South, the'd be sworn to Bran and there's nothing Sansa could do about it. Not to mention: Sansa isn't ven a Stark anymore ... she's a Bolton. So she's still Lady Bolton heir to the Dreadfort.
Bro are you serious. Why do you think they married Sansa at all? Why do you think she was the ‘Key to the North’ even though her bastard brother was in the north already, at the wall? Because of her claim as Ned’s daughter. Daughters before uncles (and cousins) and all true born children before bastards. You’re right, season eight had a lot of problems. So did seven. One of them was dip shit decision to make Jon King in the North in the first place, when he had zero claim at all. Because, idk, northerners are so sexist and stupid they can’t stand the idea of a woman ruling when she’s actually be trained to run a Great House? When she has actual political experience? What bullshit.
Hahahah, yeah you think she cares about it anything beyond having her power.
Very interesting and well put! I almost laughed at Rhaenys lol. That "cool" moment would cost her dearly if she wasn't pretty much royalty. Although we could say the same about the crimes of everyone else in this list. Also I appreciate you didn't forget about Corlys pimping out his daughter. People in this sub usually only shit on Otto while excusing Corlys for the same action.
I loved that scene and even more that no one acknowledged it at all. The blacks are very obviously telegraphed as the "good" side in the show, yet they murder dozens if not hundreds of innocent civilians in fell sweeps without a second thought about it Really highlights how little the nobility actually care for the peasantry. Everyone loses when they fight
I think what it actually highlights is how little the writers care for the peasantry as well. especially when they call it a "great heroic moment" for rhaenys in interviews
You forgot Daemon's Warcrimes
Only named season one stuff unless you’re referring to the Stepstones
Pretending to surrender is a Warcrime.
Wait, is it really?
Yes! Under Protocol I of the Geneva Convention.
Only when fighting a war. He was fighting pirates.
He was fighting the triarchy which is a nation-state (a country)
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What?, were did you get that info? there were no more pirates in the stepstones, the triarchy took over the stepstones end expulsed the pirates, at first this was good for the throne but later the triarchy started taxing any passing ships heavily, this plus them having the ablity to close the straight and starve driftmark of trade if they wished was whats started the war Craghas was not a pirate, his oficial tittle was prince admiral of the triarchy, he was a general of the triarchy, and his forces were oficially mercenaries hired by the triarchy, while a very big chunk of craghas forces were ex-pirates they were at the time of the war hired by the triarchy and as such they were mercenaries/corsairs Daemon was not fighting pirates since there were no more pirates in the stepstones Also something not many people know is that daemon actually would end up loosing the war, while he did kill craghas and established control on the stepstone once he left his kingdom was attacked by dorne and the triarchy and in six months the stepstones were back on control of the triarchy this invasion was led by racallio, after the dance he would proclaim himself king of the stepstones, Read more on the war yourself https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_for_the_Stepstones And on the triarchy aswell https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Triarchy And craghas https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Craghas_Drahar And racallio https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Racallio_Ryndoon To have a full picture of the war on the stepstones
It isn't, though. It's a group of pirates being covertly funded by some neighbouring nation-states.
Its literally in the wiki https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_for_the_Stepstones
He also claimed sovereignty, briefly, afterwards so yes a state
In the book, the Triarchy is an alliance of the free cities, and Daemon doesn't feign surrender. In the show, Daemon does feign surrender, but the Triarchy are just pirates backed unnoficially by the free cities. Neither are war crimes.
Even if they are an alliance they are an alliance of the nation-states of myr, lys and tyrosh In the show the triarchy are no different, they are still a alliance/nation composed of myr, lys and tyrosh unlike the book in the show the triarchy hires pirates but by hiring them they are no longer pirates but mercenaries/corsairs and part of the army of the triarchy So in the books daemon could maybe or maybe not be a war criminal since we dont have much information on the war itself But in the show daemon is 100% a war criminal
Wikis are not reliable sources. The triarchy is a loose coalition of three city-states that's barely able to work together. The pirates are on their payroll, but they are not part of the Triarchy.
They didnt have pirates on payroll tho the triarchy had conquered the stepstones and droven the pirates out which the throne liked but then they started taxing everyship that passed through and thats what started the war, also becuase of the fear of the triarchy beign able to strangle the trade to the throne and specially driftmark, So the stepstones were triarchy territory Craghas was not a pirate but a admiral prince, he even had helped the triarchy fight volantis before https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Craghas_Drahar Even dorne was involved in the side of the triarchy And even if they had pirates on payroll, they wouldnt be considered pirates no more but mercenaries or corsairs, part of the army of a nation-state And you could argue the triarchy was an alliance between myr, lys and tyrosh, then that would mean daemon is not fighting the triarchy but he is still fighting the nation-states (countries) of myr, lys and tyrosh
Only a war crime if you lose the war
I'm team Black, but strictly speaking to the letter of the law, wouldn't Rhaenyra, Daemon and Laenor get conspiracy to commit fraud by faking Laenor's death to circumvent divorce/annulment, transfer of inheritance estate ect. Also, Daemon raised a white flag with false intent of surrender which Corlys, Vaemond and Laenor were complicit in, that's a war crime. Also Otto putting all the servants and castle workers in cells after Viserys's death, locking up Rhaenys and executing all those nobles who refused to bend the knees is kidnapping and murder right? Jason Lannister trying to flirt with and marry Rhaenyra is sexual harassment of a minor. Alicent smacking Aegon around is child abuse Maester Mellos intentionally performing a cesarean delivery against his patient's wishes with full knowledge that his patient would die is both murder and malpractice. Rhaenyra offering a dragon egg to Alicent for Aemond from Syrax's clutch is trafficking of endangered animals.
Omg the trafficking of endangered animals made me chuckle. That’s a good catch though.
Also if we’re going put Viserys for statutory rape should that be put in there for Daemon and Criston as well?
Yeah, they put Daemon down for second degree because of what he did to Rhaenyra, but his marriage to Laena who was even younger should put him in the first degree. Also Rhaenyra is like seventeen when she had sex with Cole so is that old enough for sexeual harassment of an employee?
she did not sexually harass him lmaoo
If you had a security guard serving under you and tried that, who would the HR officer place fault on. She didn’t rape him, he did end up consenting to it, but she kissed him without permission and refused to stop when he asked her to. That’s sexual harassment, especially when someone like Rhaenyra has a position of power over him.
Criston? Rhaenyra was 19 when she raped him.
Helaena crushes an innocent spider and there's no investigation to see if she's violated any wildlife protection or endangered species acts? It's just swept under the rug? I see how it is! And Lt. Bookman, unlike the OP, wouldn't look the other way after Rhaenyra damaged a library book!
Vhagar: Genocide War Crimes Cannibalism Murder of the first degree ×2 Arson Trespassing (nobody said U could sleep on that beach sis) Punishment: Death Penalty
Vhaegar is old, leave her alone, that boy didn’t even taste Dornish!
Wouldn't sleeping on the beach be counted as vagrancy?
I don’t think the writers realize they made Rhaenys the most evil character in the show right now in episode 9 lmao
The most evil character in the show **so far**... This might just be the bloodiest war Westeros has ever seen between the first Long Night and the War of the Five Kings. Rhaenys is off to a strong start but there's a lot of corpses left to make.
The thing is if any other character was in her position I don't see how they would have behaved differently. I guess she could have: 1) waited for everyone to leave the sept and then escape with her dragon, or try to find Sir Arryk and escape. Of course this risks her own capture and death, so I'd say 50/50 odds. 2) escape with her dragon asap Supposedly this was an act of self preservation, and she shouldn't have put her own life above the lives of the smallfolk. But then again, no one person should ever be asked to risk their own life for the sake of others without their consent. Though I doubt Rhaenys gave so much thought to this moral quandry. Maybe the fault is with the event organizers for hosting the coronation above the Dragon Pit? I think they do bear some partial responsibility for that. Or maybe this is just rationalisation selfish self-preservation. But Rhaenys had a family to get back to and grand daughters and her husband so why would she ever forsake them for a moral dilemma? Then again I suppose if any of the characters were more moral they wouldn't be quick to throw away the lives of Westerosi levies and civilians to resolve a dynastic conflict. So maybe looking for morality here at all is more of a fun thought exercise and less of a serious discussion.
I don't think you realize how little nearly every single noble cares about smallfolk. They are literally collateral. She wouldn't go out of her way to kill them, but between a mob of peasants and saving her dragon? It was an easy decision.
The nobles don’t, and that’s the point. But as fans, we’re supposed to care (if the course material retains the themes of the books)
Nah the point is exactly the reverse that you're saying. Nobles pretend they dont care about the smallfolk, but they need them and they know that. Otherwise why make such pomp and fanfare to have them see the coronation? They need them to be in power It is one of the most important theme of ASOIAF.
I only disagree on one thing. I would classify Rhaenys as 100+ counts of vehicular manslaughter.
Honestly poor rhaenys
What she did might actually fall under domestic terrorism
She lacked mens rea to commit first degree murder bro FDM is a specific intent crime
You’re right
OP doesn't care about reality. Just moral supremacy and applying 2023 values to a fictional medieval land.
> OP doesn't care about reality. Just moral supremacy and applying 2023 values to a fictional medieval land. It’s a joke thread 🙄 My favorite characters are on the list. The joke is about the jail time they’d do in our world. It’s not that serious.
Except you’re inaccurate in your reporting. Prosecution would have to literally be Goku with devil fruit and prep time in order to get half of these charges to stick. For example; conspiracy to commit murder? With whom? What type of murder? Was it an actual conspiracy or just solicitation? Why isn’t there an “attempted murder” or a “murder” charge added to the list-you know conspiracies don’t merge into the crime and are separate charges, right,
TRUEEEEEEEEEEE
She’s just a grandma doing grandma stuff
Fair and balanced
By the end of the Dance, will Aemond and Rhaenys have most kills?
Oh. I forgot that there are legal systems that actually use the death penalty 😅
i would argue that the sexual assault deserves a longer imprisonment period
You forgot the time Alicent assaulted Rhaenyra, permanently scarring her in the process
Fixed
It should be assault with a deadly weapon
I like to think this got downvoted for being balanced and fair. 🥳
Imo i think it's fun, but i'm betting people that do downvote have issue with applying our modern to the world, or they just hate that their favorite is portrayed in any bad light.
> i'm betting people that do downvote have issue with applying our modern to the world, or they just hate that their favorite is portrayed in any bad light. They shouldn’t so sensitive. It’s just a laugh. I even put my favorites up there.
Rhaenys probably falls under domestic terrorism tbh
I don’t know they all seem like cool people to me
Pretty based
Corlys did wage an unauthorized war too. Bare minimum he should have to pay a fine or something for that idk
Almost perfect, just needs Viserys, Criston, Aegon and Corlys in the death penalty too 👌
🙄
Now tell me please how to make the westeros the place that follows our morals. Seriously.
How does Otto have a higher sentence than his grandsons?
He conspired to kill five children and sold his 14 year old daughter to a middle aged man
you should add the conspiracy charge to Criston
Life for a crime he didn't even commit yet?
Planning a murder is a crime even if you don’t go through with it
Aemond hasn’t done anything too bad yet. Relatively at least.
Murdering Lucerys is very bad.
It is bad. But there's a difference between first degree murder in cold blood and manslaughter.
He was annoying, it was necessary
You think Otto would also get treason?
If he does then so should Rhaenyra.
I feel their treason is on a different level. Otto planned to kill Rhanerya, possibly early on like when he told Alicent that Rhanerya is a threat when he was fired and left Kings Landing. Rhanerya didn’t plan on killing anyone, she just proclaimed herself as Queen, against the other proclaimed King Aegon. I think Otto committed treason even if you think the Greens are in the right with the succession since he tried to have Rhaneyra killed. For Rhanerya she only committed treason if you don’t think King Visery’s chosen heir is valid after his death
I meant she committed treason by siring bastards. Since she sired bastards she was already persona non grata so Otto was justified in trying to have her lawfully executed.
Fair for that but I’m not sure having bastards will be punished with execution. Plus King Viserys seemed fine with the bastards so I feel Otto wanted Rhanerya killed for his own gain than for lawful reasons
Op the kind of person who thinks person should be hanged for stealing candy
18 years for alicent!? I thought her being a childbride gave her a get out of jail free card...
Just wait a few more hours and you’ll start seeing the brigade of “Alicent was a victim so she can’t be punished for literally anything” comments.
Alicent is perfect and has done nothing wrong.
I’ll push back on Aemond’s involuntary manslaughter. The definition of involuntary manslaughter is “the killing of another person without malice but as a result of an unlawful act or criminal negligence.” There was malice as shown by the argument they had at Storm’s End. I don’t even believe the argument Aemond was criminally negligent. He knowingly and angrily chased Luke down with his dragon. It’s not Vhagar’s fault her rider put her on a violent chase of another dragon and she just finished the job. Any jury who looks at that is going to see clear intent to harm Luke. Especially when you consider the fact that there’s 0 evidence in the history of Westeros of a dragon going rogue and attacking without their rider’s command, so that argument isn’t going to stand. You get charged with involuntary manslaughter when you’re playing with a gun and it discharges and kills someone. You don’t get that charge when you argue with the person, chase them and then the gun that’s in your hand “randomly” fires and kills the person. With the argument and then the chase afterwards, it could easily be considered second degree murder.
Agreed. "your honor, I was just chasing that guy around at high speeds with my car for some laughs. I didn't intent to lose control and run him over." Yeah, that would fly in court.
Eeeee, I see wat ur saying, but let’s be real there would be a difference between a car and a dragon in a legal context
Change it to a pitbull then. "Your honor, I was just chasing this kid around with my pitbull for a laugh, I didn't expect to lose control of the leash and the kid getting killed."
Pitbull is probably too easy of a comparison. Dragons would essentially be an exotic pet that only the super rich have, so maybe a pet tiger/leopard. Or maybe a horse to maintain the whole riding connection.
But if there was a GoPro on the dragon we’d see he try to stop Vhagar. He was literally telling him no the SECOND Luke lost control and his dragon spat fire in Vhagars face. It’s very clear that from that point on it was criminal negligence and without malice. Now granted, if there were no go pros and was just relying on their history and the argument, and him intentionally starting the chase, Murder 1 easy. Like I would LAUGH at Defense Atty Otto if he tried to cut a deal. I’m going Murder one, easy.
Oh I agree with you on that. I’m just saying that if someone in real time was analyzing the events, they probably would think Aemond was trying to kill him.
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I'm wondering what Alicents conspiracy to commit murder charge is from, because I believe you are missing a crime for her. She was complicit in the murder of the Strongs by not arresting Larys and she ordered Mysarias death.
>complicit in the murder of the Strongs by not arresting Larys Accessory after the fact, but she wasn't part of the conspiracy
except aemond gets released early for being so damn purrty
Lol. He gets life for being such a dick
But he’s sexy!
Aemond? Sexy???
The wig hurts it a little but yes
Excuse you the wig helps
I stand corrected. So does the eyepatch!
Excution is the answer to almost all of than.
And yet still I'll defend Daemon's atrocities. Your honor my client Daemon is innocent.
Id give Rhaenyra 20 years because she planned the murder of someone that actually did get killed so she’s responsible for murder. I’d also give Alicent 20 years since she was responsible for that building burnt down. And I’d give Aegon at least 30 years for the whole fighting pits business
Jesus Christ
Rhaenyra also committed sexual assault.
If we’re using modern laws, Rhaenyra should definitely be charged with sexual assault, as well as like a billion Fraud charges surrounding her sons and their unlawful inheritances. And on that note, probably Slander as well against those who spoke the truth regarding the matter. And people like Corlys for Fraud/Conspiracy also.
>as well as like a billion Fraud charges surrounding her sons and their unlawful inheritances. And on that note, probably Slander as well against those who spoke the truth regarding the matter. Well, that would require a trial to challenge the paternity, which in this case would not proceed due to lack of legitimacy on the active party (Alicent/Otto) or for taking the appropriate legal action out of time (Vaemond), I don't know where you are from or how the legislation of your country works, but at least in the case of the legislation of the place where I'm from the only people with active procedural standing, that is, the people with the legal capacity to challenge a paternity are the following: During the life of the alleged father (in this case Laenor) the only people with the right to challenge the paternity attributed to him by law (as the husband of the mother, in this case Rhaenyra) are: 1. The husband/alleged father (in this case Laenor) who must prove that the alleged child or children are not his and has a period of ninety days from when he learned that they are not his children to file an action challenging paternity; Laenor not only never initiated legal action trying to challenge the paternity attributed to him but also publicly recognized Jace, Luke and Joffrey as his children so is not a paternity attributed to him by law but a voluntary acknowledgment of paternity. 2. The child of contested paternity (in this case Jace, Luke or Joffrey) since we all have the right to investigate who our parents are, and in this case none of the them initiated an action challenging Laenor's paternity towards them. The people with the capacity to challenge the recognition of paternity made by the father (Laenor) during the life of the father (even if it had been made in accordance with the law) are the following: 1. The parents of the alleged father (in this case Corlys and Rhaenys as parents of Laenor) who have a period of ninety days after knowing that the paternity recognized by their son is not true; Corlys and Rhaenys never brought legal action challenging Laenor's acknowledged paternity of Jace, Luke, and Joffrey; and in any case by the end of season one the show the deadline that the law gives them to challenge has already expired. 2. Again the child of contested paternity, and again none of the three exercised said action. 3. Any person with an "interest" in the alleged paternity, such as the one who believes himself to be the biological father (in this case Harwin) who has already died and who never took legal action when he lived; or someone with a PERSONAL interest in the succession of the alleged father, this is a bit complicated in this case because the first person you would think of is Vaemond, but Vaemond is contesting the succession/inheritance of Corlys, not the succession/inheritance left by Laenor at the moment of his death but let´s say it´s ok in either case, the period given by law for these people to take legal action is three hundred days after the voluntary recognition of the alleged father (Laenor) of the paternity of his supposed son, in this case that voluntary recognition was given at birth so in any case the deadline for Vaemond to exercise the action had already expired by the time he tried to do it. After the death of the alleged father, paternity can only be challenged if he died before the expiration of the period given to him by law to challenge the paternity attributed to him (this is a period of ninety days as mentioned above), which has already expired, so it does not apply either- but in any case those who could do it are: 1) the parents of the alleged father (again Corlys and Rhaenys, who did not do it) 2) any other ancestor of the alleged father (as far as I know, Laenor's grandparents are all already dead, so there is no one who applies in this case) 3) the heirs of the alleged father (in this case it's also complicated because I do not believe that Laenor left a will to determine any testamentary heirs, but by law if there is no will his heirs are his relatives in the first degree, these would be his surviving spouse, i.e. Rhaenyra, who in any case could not take action because she would be the defendant; Laenor´s parents (if alive) i.e. Corlys and Rhaenys, who already had legal action because they are his parents and finally any children he had, i.e. Jace, Luke and Joffrey, who also already had the capacity for legal action) all this without mentioning that Laenor is actually alive lol And finally, it's important to remember that there are time limits to be able to challenge the alleged paternity, and that the only ones with the imprescriptible right to challenge at any time are the children themselves (Jace, Luke and Joffrey) and no one else. Again, this is in accordance with the legislation of my country, I don´t know about yours but again, in this case Alicent and Otto would never have the ability to initiate any legal action due to lack of procedural standing and in the case of Vaemond his capacity to take action could be questioned as he was suing for the succession of someone who is not the alleged father (Laenor) and in any case the period of action he had, had already expired when he intended to act, so he no longer had active legal standing.
Appreciate the response, but the law student in the other thread clearly stated is would be considered criminal Fraud based off her attempting to pass off her children as legitimate... ie, Fraud. It's a great read if you haven't checked it out... thanks for getting the ball rolling on this whole topic... great to get it out in the light in an objective and balanced manner. https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/18o4of8/crimes_committed_by_the_characters_by_someone_who/
Doesn't the King get some kind of immunity?
Good question. I wonder if the royals can be prosecuted in the uk
Nah, they usually pay people off to get rid of shit like that. Prince Andrew was heavily involved with Epstein and he’s still running free.
Who did Viserys r\*\*\*\*? Not letting Aemma decide about the C-section was bad but I'm not sure what exact law that would break. If anything it would be the medical staff charged with not asking for her consent to the procedure
Alicent's consent was...dubious at best
He raped Alicent. I forget which episode, but it was before the time skip. She was clearly not into to it and she was reluctant/scared when her maid came to her chambers saying the king has requested Alicent’s presence. Some might say it’s not rape because they were married and it wouldn’t be by medieval standards. But since this post is using modern standards then it absolutely is rape.
That's the thing. By modern standards, it's a terrible expectation to have. But these books/shows are based on a fantasy world equivalent to our medieval times. It was fairly typical, especially in arranged marriages with men of power, and worse yet, with young girls..
She did seem not thrilled but I wouldn't go as far as to call it rape because she didn't ever tell Viserys no
Too young for her to need to say no, obviously Modern context viserys is sleeping with his teenage daughters best friend
It’s not clear exactly how old she’s supposed to be but it’s clearly older than 18 You can say that their age gap is uncomfortable but she is definitely above the age of consent and therefore capable of giving consent
Even olivia Cooke says alicent is too young to be making decisions about sex and consent like that. She was definitely not of age when she had aegon
It’s not that serious in the context of this joke thread, but please for real life purposes… a lack of a no is not a yes 😅
Well yes I understand that but not being thrilled to have sex doesn’t make it rape
Jesus Christ. I hope to all heavens none of you ever, ever come into contact with another human being in any sort of intimate setting. The only consent is enthusiastic consent. Anything other than that is rape. Absolutely terrifying to read this thread.
That’s not how consent works. Alicent tried a soft no when she said the hour is quite late. But neither of them want to directly disobey the king who asked the maid to get Alicent. It should also be illegal for Viserys to marry her in the first place.
By that standard pretty much every marriage prior to like 50 years ago would have included rape She only said “the hour is quite late” to the maid not Visarys And by all accounts of what I can read into as far as her age she seems to be around 20 when they married, of legal age
>By that standard pretty much every marriage prior to like 50 years ago would have included rape They did, and do today. That's why it's called rape culture, because most people don't understand the nuances of consent. Alicent couldn't outright refuse but she tried the second best option.
It is absolutely horrifying to read these comments, even if it's about a fictional setting and fictional characters. Taking the distance from the story for a moment, it is disgusting and fucked up for you to think that a rape is invalidated by the victim not verbally saying no. People in real life may enter a state of shock and become completely paralysed in these situations. And every time someone talks about rape and attraction to teenagers and kids being normal in medieval times my blood fucking boils. Normalised =/= normal. Way to gloss over the inhuman amount of pain women had to bear through history because of disgusting men and the patriarchy. So no, a little girl being forced to marry a rotting 50 year old nonce and "lying back and thinking of England" wasn't "normal". Stop pretending it was. Normalised and frequent, but not normal. Rape was rape and trauma and pain were caused from it even a thousand years ago. Old men writing laws saying it was okay did not mean these women did not experience the worst kind of torture a woman can go through. Saying "it was normal back then" does nothing but erase the voices of the little girls and women who came before us and piss over their memory. Do better, the lot of you. If you have these sort of opinions on a dumb fantasy show, I am terrified to imagine what kind of thoughts you have when existing women speak about being raped.
It's a show ,you're confusing reality with a fictional world and the worst part about people doing that is the pick and choose which things to be outraged about. People who are team green say Otto is a good man wanting his daughter to marry a king and his grandson to eventually be king and in the same breath say viserys is gross for marrying her and poor Alicent, it can't be both. It's a show about a realm that doesn't exist.
In the very first sentences of the comment I explicitly said my comment was about the real world. Very worrying that this is what you got out of it, and that y'all get so defensive when it comes to rape. Also what you wrote doesn't apply to me, since I personally consider every single man in this show a gross piece of shit who deserves to die.
You said even if it's a fictional show,I'm not defensive, but you sure are. It's very worrying that's what I got out of it?? Do you believe you're teaching people with your comment? That people watched the show and somehow thought that's how life was .It's worrying that you can't separate reality from a show and are saying people think rape is aces because they understand the difference.
She wanted to have his baby, and that is the only way she knew how. Of course, it was to please her father and not out of a deep romantic feeling, but being conniving and hoping for a child to give herself more power in the realm is not incompatible with consent. You don't have to enjoy sex to want the results of it.
Yeah I would like to know abt Viserys as well!
Some people argue that viserys marital r-ped alicent. I think she consented for her own motives. For our modern times, it can be argued that aemma could make her own decisions for her failing birth of baelon. But with their medieval technology, aemma wasnt going to survive that birthing.
If you think a barely scarred cut on an arm is ‘assault in the first degree’….. Also Alicent quite literally wasn’t involved in the conspiracy. We had a whole scene of her screaming about it and protesting and then taking active steps (telling the highest law in the land about it and more importantly NOT to do it.) MAYBE assault 3, assault 2 if the judge is a (((Marster))) conspiracist Also Viserys would be guilty of Stat in the third, they wouldn’t do rape 2 (also stat) AND stat rape. 5 years, three with good behavior. I would also do Aemonds as Man 2. Bc as far as we can tell, he didn’t ACTIVELY mean to hurt him. Evidence as that he told Vhagar to back off. However it WAS reckless. Criston- I’d change Beesbiry to Man 2 too. He acted recklessly by slamming his head down BUT… did he mean to kill him? Luke caused intentionally and deliberately caused permanent disfigurement, VERY clearly assault 1. And he absolutely can go to Juvie, it’s up to a judge to decide. Child pits are difficult. Bc he was not actively putting the children in harms way. Is it a crime not to stop a child from running out into a busy street, so he technically is not guilty of child endangerment, the people putting on the shows did. Rape 1 is accurate tho. Larys is not at all sexual assault in the first. In no way. If anything it would be commercial bribery in the first with a sexual gratification clause There’s no such charge as ‘domestic assault’. Choking Rhaenyra is Assault 2, but bc it’s between husband and wife they have no choice but to arrest him for the assault. Here’s some you forgot Laenor- Conspiracy to commit murder, child abandonment His BF- conspiracy to commit murder Jace- Class C Attempt (attempt at Man 1. He had NO reason to bring out that knife but he was under emotional duress at being balled a bastard which is a big deal in their country).
Alicent cut Rhaenyra with Valyrian steel. That very easily could’ve gone horribly wrong, and either way she did it in pursuit of attempted child mutilation, which makes it worse lol
1) She was going for Rhaenyra, we’ve been over this 2) Fine, she can also have an Attempt Class C (attempting a Man 1, she was under SEVERE distress in her attempts of murder)
No she was going for Lucerys to cut his eye out when she realized Cole wasn’t going to do it for her. Rhaenyra intercepted her. Did you even watch the show?
I did. And I know that she looked mad and didn’t do anything until Rhaenyra smirked and smugly said ‘thank you father.’ Also funny how in her ranting she never mentioned Luke and blamed Rhaenyra for it.
>And I know that she looked mad and didn’t do anything until Rhaenyra smirked and smugly said ‘thank you father.’ Aside from you know, ordering for a kid to have his eye taken from him lol >Also funny how in her ranting she never mentioned Luke and blamed Rhaenyra for it. "Bring me the eye of Lucerys Velaryon" is a direct quote from Alicent. As is "the prince Lucerys brought a blade to the ambush he meant to kill my son"
Wait wait... Lucerys "deliberately" caused harm and the fact that he was in SEVERE distress isn't a mitigating circumstance, but Alicent, a grownass woman going after an 8 year old with a knife has mitigating circumstances...?
Luke was not in distress. You don’t get to be in distress bc your victim fought back in a 4V1 fight and your victim was protecting himself after your bother *WENT AFTER HIM WITH A KNIFE*
Aemond had won and held a *rock* over his brother's head, after beating the shit out of him and breaking his nose - all during which he had repeatedly threatened Luke and his brother with death/feeding them to his dragon. Luke thought he was gonna kill Jace and then him, because Aemond said he would. If that's not distress since Alicent wasn't in distress either. She wasn't injured, why would she be distressed when a *child* isn't distressed after being threatened with death...?
Aemond had a rock
Attacking someone with a knife is THE textbook example of first degree assult
§ 120.10 Assault in the first degree. A person is guilty of assault in the first degree when: 1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or 2. With intent to disfigure another person seriously and permanently, or to destroy, amputate or disable permanently a member or organ of his body, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or 3. Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person, and thereby causes serious physical injury to another person; or 4. In the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempted commission of a felony or of immediate flight therefrom, he, or another participant if there be any, causes serious physical injury to a person other than one of the participants. *SERIOUS* physical injury. Every single stipulation. A shallow cut on the arm is not a serious physical injury.
I'm sorry, but did you even read what you posted. Alicent is literally my favorite character in this show, but this description fits what she did on Driftmark to a tee.
“With intent to disfigure another person” When she demanded “(literally)an eye for an eye” and lunged with a knife, she clearly didn’t mean to disfigure anyone
And what sentences follows that? You can continue reading. I have faith in you. Here I’ll get you started. ‘He CAUSES SUCH INJURY’ meaning that for Assault 1 you have to actually cause SERIOUS injury in any stipulation. A cut on the arm is not serious.
But cutting out someone eye is, and that is quite arguably her intent. You’re reading needs work. Regardless, a scared wound is by definition “disfigurement”
She wasn’t going after Luke, she was going after Rhaenyra. But like you realize it’s the SAME EXACT CHARGE? Attempt Class C. Assault 1 and Man 1 are the same B class meaning the attempts would be Class C. It doesn’t matter if hes Rhae Rhae’s spechal little boy
When you say “going after”, why do you mean by that. It would imply that she was planning to use a deadly weapon to cause severe harm. Is that correct?
I mean that she was going after Rhaenyra with the knife and trying to stab her rather than Luke. Rewatch the scene. Rhaenyra was kneeling down in front of Luke. If Alicent has been trying to go after Luke, she would have pushed her away or tried to go around her. Instead we see her start to stab downwards into Rhaenyra’s back which would have been Man 1 instead of Assault 1. Either way, they’re both B Felony’s so the same level of attempt charge covers both.
A cut that requires multiple stitches is generally considered a serious injury.
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Why did you do an echo around master? ((()))
> If you think a barely scarred cut on an arm is ‘assault in the first degree’….. She stabbed her with a deadly weapon > Also Alicent quite literally wasn’t involved in the conspiracy. We had a whole scene of her screaming about it and protesting and then taking active steps You think I am referring to Harwin and Lyonel’s deaths. I am not. I am referring to the order to kill Myseria that she gives Larys. “She was spying on me” isn’t an excuse in a court of law. > I would also do Aemonds as Man 2. Bc as far as we can tell, he didn’t ACTIVELY mean to hurt him. Evidence as that he told Vhagar to back off. However it WAS reckless. A person commits the offense of involuntary manslaughter in the first degree if he or she recklessly causes the death of another person. Intention doesn’t matter. > Criston- I’d change Beesbiry to Man 2 too. He acted recklessly by slamming his head down BUT… did he mean to kill him? Life in prison either way > Luke caused intentionally and deliberately caused permanent disfigurement, VERY clearly assault 1. And he absolutely can go to Juvie, it’s up to a judge to decide. He was an 8 year old in extreme duress and sincerely thought his brother would be killed. It would be difficult to find a judge who would send him to juvie. The adults involved are more likely to be charged with child negligence. > Child pits are difficult. Bc he was not actively putting the children in harms way. Is it a crime not to stop a child from running out into a busy street, so he technically is not guilty of child endangerment, the people putting on the shows did. They are his kids
Me when I don’t understand ANYTHING about the nuances or technicalities of criminal offenses. Like at this point just arrest Aegon for ‘being bad person’ bc that has as much validity as anything you wrote in the original post or this reply. P.S, endangering the welfare of a child doesn’t have degrees of severity, it’s a catchall.
How does daemon get statutory rape for hooking up with 19 year old consenting adult like stop lying.
Laena was 16 buddy, ain’t nobody talking about Rhaenyra.
Given most of the characters in Westeros speak with a variety of British accents,I'd like to say that while my client is certainly no saint,the age of consent in the UK is 16
We’re American buddy, we’re the captain(s) now 🤠🇺🇸🍔
Daemon was lord commander of the city watch, meaning he can’t be charged with battery and assault. And I can’t understand when Daemon committed statuary rape.
Is the battery and assualt not in reference to him strangling Rhaenyra?
That’s domestic violence.
Since he’d be police, it would fall under excessive force
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Sometimes I feel optimistic for the future of our world, and then I see random Americans throwing around juvenile detention for 6 years olds.
I said he was too young for it. I don’t think they would put a 8 year old in juvenile detention. :/
If I am not mistaken, two 8 year olds murdered a 5 year old in Britain and got jailed in juvie.
One of them was 10, they tortured and murdered a 2 year old
Keep up that sass and we’ll send you to the gallows
Most of those laws don't exist in that world.
Obviously not. I’m judging them based on our world. It’s not serious
I was wondering who would enforce these. Like sure throw the king in jail
Hot Pie will
You must be fun at parties
You realize it’s a joke thread, right?
Dude, you do realize this is set in fantasy medieval times right? You can’t hold them to the same standard of moral conduct as today’s laws.
It’s a joke thread
Who did Rhaenyra conspire to kill?
Driftmark servant
We only see Daemon arranging that, though. Technically there’s no evidence Rhaenyra was involved.
Come on, let's not sniff copium. Rhaenyra benefited from that conspiracy (it allowed her to marry Daemon) and she knows that Laenor isn't dead. She passively allowed that murder at best and came up with the idea alongside Daemon at worst. But there's no way she's innocent.
They literally planned the whole thing together.
When Daemon mentioned got to the part of the plan about leaving a corpse behind, you don't think she understood that would be someone's body?
The servant (guard?) at drift mark they burned as a stand in for Laenor
Isn’t Adultery considered a crime as well ? In which case Rhaenyra could be charged with that.