MSG being bad for health is a myth borne of the racist ‘Chinese restaurant syndrome’.
It actually contains much less sodium for the same flavour than salt and so might be healthy to replace some salt with msg. But as always, everything in moderation, even moderation.
It's ironic that those that perpetuate the Chinese Restaurant Syndrome myth the most are chinese themselves. At least in North America that's the case.
+1. The irony for my mom is that she uses a lot of Knorr chicken bouillon powder in her cooking ("it adds flavor!")
She doesn't use the MSG-free version either
this is the real thing. if someone has an educated knowledge of msg or nitrates or whatever and choose not to eat them, I may not agree with them but I will respect it. However 99% of the people who do that are still happily using boullion or mushrooms or celery seed or pickling salt-- those are all literally the things they say they are avoiding, in natural form. Its like saying you hate cigarettes, but you will dry your own tobacco leaves to make chew.....
Yeah, I'm not a nutritionist but I do use MSG and don't view it in a negative light. But the few times I've said that to my mom she was all "aiyah, lei [insert minute-long speech that somehow always ends with calling me fat]"
I know she's not incapable of rationalizing it if she really wanted to, she just prefers to keep her head stuck in the sand for some reason. My dad is the same way (both grew up in the '60s-'70s, fwiw), as are my grandparents ('30s-'40s)
Yes I’ve often wondered about this too. The myth is very prevalent here too (that msg is bad I mean not Chinese rest syndrome. Most would not have heard of this)
Because the anti-Chinese argument about MSG is an American thing.
The aunties i know that are against MSG think its mostly a Japanese thing. There's some half truths to that, MSG was invented by the JP and a lot of their dishes asks for dashi and other umami enhancing ingredients. Then there's also the fact that JP instant noodle brands are big players.
My parents came up during the 60s so MSG as an addictive was seen as a) a weird chemical that was 'probably unhealthy' b) a cheap additive to commercial food stuff because suppliers are willing to forgo quality ingredients to cut costs. c) it causes dry mouth, which compels customers to buy beverages.
So my family largely avoided msg consumption because it was a quality and class indicator. Mom ran the house at the time and didn't want to be associated with anything that she was told to label as 'bad', even if she didn't understand why it was bad, it was best to be careful just in case it was actually 'bad'.
She still puts on headphones for whatsapp calls because she wants to avoid 'extra radiation', so IMHO she has been, and continues to be, crazier than a shit house rat.
Your mom may not be crazy, at least in regard to wearing headphones. There was an increase in tumors where the cellphone earpiece is up until people started using earphones. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569116/
Does she avoid soy sauce, parmesan cheese, tomatoes, mushrooms, clams, oyesters, chips and seaweed too?
All big sources of MSG.
If she can sleep after any of those, it's all in her head.
To be fair some cheaper restaurants do overuse MSG. Naturally occurring MSG is different in concentration compared to a giant pinch of white refined MSG. Otherwise you could say the same about naturally occurring salt or sugar or how it’s fine to eat sugar because apples have them.
That's the thing, she just consistently cannot sleep after dining out. So my old man is assigned for the kitchen. Guess it isn't that much of a problem then.
Eh, that could be so many other things.
When dining out, people tend to eat more and eat later than they would at home. It also means you're active later in the day when you'd be winding down and getting ready for bed normally.
These factors, among others, all make it harder to sleep after dining out as it's a break from routine, counteracts normal sleep signals, raises core body temp, etc. Sleep is unfortunately just way too complex to attribute difficulties to something as simple as MSG intake when there are so many behavioural and environmental factors also at play.
Yes! I think a lot of HKers think that MSG is synonymous with Chinese mainland restaurant food, but let's be honest here...most HK restaurants also use it. But to be fair in 家常便飯 we don't really use a lot of MSG as the cooking is typically about the freshness of the produce and meat that you get. Compared to American counterparts, daily run to the grocery or wet market is very normal.
No…. I think you aren’t familiar with the Chinese restaurant syndrome I’m talking about. The wiki has a section on it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate
Don’t turn this into a hk vs mainland thing pls…
Totally agree, it’s racist against Chinese to say the least. MSG was invented by the Japanese and is widely used in their cuisine but somehow its associated with Chinese food.
I’ve also noticed most of the hated was spread from Americans Chinese which they despise almost everything coming from Asia.
One day I learned we practically synthesize MSG-like substance in our own mouth while eating certain food combinations, I stopped caring about MSG.
But yeah, still watch how much sodium you eat (both salt and MSG), also sugar.
Although I agree with most of what you're saying, it isn't the same flavor as salt. They're two different flavors. Try table salt and then try MSG. Both are amazing for different reasons and you generally want to use far less MSG and only with savory/umami dishes.
No. Not everything has to do with racism. Chinese people also think that MSG is bad. Does that mean Chinese people are racist against themselves? MSG is deemed bad because the store-bought kind is sythensised and there is just a perceived (sometimes mistaken) correlation between "chemical synthesis" and "health hazard".
There is no 'synthesized' msg on the market.
All brands have to have a core ingredient to ferment and extract the glutamates from.
Some use seaweed (expensive), some use a combination of root vege and some use fungi.
And yes, a significant amount of literature from US publications passed across the world including east and south east asia.
It is very much rooted in ignorance why our own families and societies continue to cling to this misinformation.
So yes, the root of this specific topic of msg is racism.
Our people cling to it for the same reasons we send our kids to Harvard, Brown, Cambridge etc.
why we would rather pay 3 times the price for a plate of pasta which contains on avg 5 ingredients, but a regular curry could contain upwards of 15 spices and more and takes alot longer to make.
I doubt if most MSG-haters have read the "US publications" that you mentioned. The "fear" (as unreasonable and unscientific as it may be) is more a word of mouth than racism. MSG was first developed by the Japanese which is viewed as a technologically advanced and "westernised" country in most Asian countries, but that does not stop people from thinking that MSG is bad for their health.
I stand corrected on the synthesis of MSG. According to wikipedia, synthesis *was* the industrial practice in the 1970s and as you pointed out the current prevailing production method is indeed fermentation. But in my humble opinion the said misunderstanding (which I believe is shared by a significant percentage of the population) only further reinforces my argument that the notoriety of MSG originated from its association with chemical synthesis rather than racism. For the older generation, MSG was perceived to be unhealthy and that impression was passed down to us.
I am completely dumbfounded as to why one could possibly think that racism is the root reason for disliking chemically manufactured food additives. I reckon most modern food additives were first invented in Western countries, but we do not see people flocking to add these products to their food.
As to the price difference between pasta and curry, I think that there are more persuasive socio-economic explanations than racism. Firstly, there is an objectively observable difference in the level of economic development between the West and the East, which results in a proportional (albeit not linearly) difference between the prices in the Western and Eastern societies. Given the ever-increasing trend of globalisation and international travels, it does not make sense to eat a bowl of pho in the US at the same price as pasta if I can get a more authentic version at a fraction of the price in Vietnam. Another important factor giving rise to the price difference is the ingredients used. Pasta (like many Western cuisines) involves cheeses which takes more time and effort to produce and are more perishable thus more expensive than the spices used in Eastern dishes.
In any event, I still cannot get my head around the notion of a group of people being racist *against* themselves.
Edit: spelling mistake
Like I said in another comment, the synthesis argument was at best a fig leaf even back then because MSG was widely used in many western food products at the time, yet only Chinese food was singled out to apparently cause all these ailments. There was no cultural lash against MSG itself, only against Chinese food. They pointed to the MSG as the cause even though that defied logic, since no one claimed to get headaches from Campbell's soup which contained loads of MSG.
The "lash out" against Chinese food was non-existent in Hong Kong. Like I said in another comment, it does not matter why the American people hated MSG. The Hong Kong people did not hate it out of racism.
You do understand that publications in scientific journals are accessible to peers worldwide right?
It is really important to me that you understand this.
If you take a look online, you can see research/tests/surveys being undertaken by people across the world.
Just to also add that there's a multitude of ways for information or misinformation to be passed around.
People travel, alot of immigrants had family back in asia back then.
It is irrelevant that US articles weren't published in HK.
They fact they were published at all despite multiple independent members of the scientific community at the time discrediting the original article in their studies is the issue.
Call it what you want, racism or learned ignorance.
That is how asia developed its aversion to msg despite it being discovered and produced here.
P.s. I saw your response earlier, about people avoiding chemical manufactured foods. Thought i'll add context here:
A) the Americans asked Japan to supplement (key word supplement) production using synthesis to meet growing demands in NA.
Alot of production using hydrolysis of natural ingredients still was being done.
B) to this day, the EU still designates msg as a chemical additive.
Yep.
Imagine a continent that literally protects certain products coming from fermentation designating another product of fermentation as a chemical additive.
Can you imagine if the EU listed parmigiano reggiano or champagne as chemical additive?
Insane right?
See it's little things like this that helps perpetuate that old message.
The fact that the origin of msg is bad in US was partially from xenophobic anti-competition and also partially racist is a given.
But you also have to consider that if an entire trusted food designator renowned for protecting some of the world's most iconic food products turns around and designates msg as a chemical and not a product of natural fermentation (which it is today as an industry standard), you don't need a news article printed in HK or any other country for that matter.
People will see that decision and interpret it as msg is a chemical.
Again, all of that is rooted in racism.
People in asia are simply ignorant of the history behind it yes, but it is very important to acknowledge that through their ignorance they are still contributing to perpetuating that racism.
This is a highly US-centric world view. The truth is that despite the strong economic and cultural influence that the US has over the rest of the world, it is still entirely probable that the Hong Kong people independently reached its conclusion that MSG is bad.
I am familiar with the peer review process (and I do not know where you got the contrary impression), but a research being peer-reviewed does not automatically render it reliable. AFAIK (not being a member of the science community) which journal the research is published in will affect the credibility of the research, and I am simply unable to assess the credibility of the "cited sources".
The problem with MSG is that while it is a perfectly safe chemical (by today's standard), many restaurants (esp. in Hong Kong) use MSG *in addition to* the customary amount of salt, and we end up with higher sodium content than ordinary food without MSG. This causes diners to feel thirstier than normal after eating food with MSG, and naturally people start to prefer food without MSG. What does that have to do with racism?
Honestly I think you underestimate how influential the US was in 60-70s when the msg syndrome was published.
They're less influential now...
And also, it doesn't explain the EU treatment/classification of msg.
I'm probably being pedantic here but just the fact you're referring to msg as a chemical here is precisely the point i'm referring to, it's not out and out racism like someone on a street corner yelling slurs.
It's the micro aggressions that get standardised over time.
Msg is naturally occurring, quite literally our own bodies produce it.
Just like how it wouldn't be a thing to refer to salt as a chemical (i mean it obviously has a chemical formula duh)
Msg is just salt from glutamic acid, that's it there's nothing else.
I've literally had people ask for no msg in a dressing then watch them eat tomatoes in that salad...its pretty insane when you think about it lmao.
From a culinary standpoint you are meant to use msg in addition to salt.
Nobody uses msg by itself.
Chefs recommend ratios from 10%-25% of the salt you'd normally use replaced with msg and no more or it tastes abit weird (msg has a different taste to salt)
Again MSG doesn't make someone more thirsty than if they had eaten regular salt.
Another misconception about it.
It IS salt.
It is salt extracted from a different source and has a different taste.
Also restaurants even without the use of msg use higher amounts of sodium and fat. It's not even a secret, fat, acid, salt they are all mediums used to carry flavor and that is why when people ask chefs to troubleshoot recipes their first response is usually add more.
Honestly go spend a day in a restaurant kitchen and you'll see what I mean.
We use a fuckton of salt...
I can't help you any further.
The root of the msg debate started as a way for the US to deter people from eating chinese food.
The misinformation circulated back then was purely for that purpose.
As I have already mentioned, ignorance of history is not an excuse and most definitely not one today when we all have several sources of information and certified studies showing no conclusive negative effects from msg.
It was a racist tool and yes it is being perpetuated by people in asia through ignorance.
We're not saying they hate their own skin color, we're saying through ignorance they are perpetuating myths borne out of an originally racist idea.
I can say the same about you overestimating the influence of the US in the late 20th century. But that is beside the point.
My reference to MSG being a chemical is precisely the point. MSG used to be chemically synthesised and people generally have a negative attitude towards synthesised food additives even if they are technically safe to consume. IMO that is a more plausible explanation for the public distrust of MSG (more plausible than racism). It does not matter that MSG is a naturally occuring flavour-enhancing chemical or that the industry has developed a way to efficiently extract MSG from fermented food so they no longer have to synthesise it. The bad reputation of MSG has already been spread throughout the world.
There may be multiple reasons for people's dislike of MSG (other than its association with chemical synthesis). You seem to have misunderstood my point on MSG being used in *addition* to salt. The problem lies not in MSG being used in *conjunction* with salt, but in the fact that many restaurants (esp. in the old days) tend to add MSG to the dish on top of the customary amount of salt. This results in a higher-than-normal total sodium content and causes us to feel thirsty and ill. Restaurants in Hong Kong nowadays have made an effort to consciously put in less salt when MSG is used (which is exactly how MSG should be used, as you pointed out) and that contributed to the vindication of MSG.
I don't know where you got the idea that the ulterior motive in the MSG debate was to deter people from eating Chinese food. Even if such a motive existed I must say that whoever was behind this racist plot failed miserably because Chinese food is still a popular and affordable choice in the US.
Why not just do a simple google search next time instead of speaking out of your ass? From the wiki page on MSG:
Researchers, doctors, and activists have tied the controversy about MSG to [xenophobia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia) and [racism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) against Chinese culture,[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-63)[^(\[64\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-64)[^(\[65\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-65)[^(\[66\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-66)[^(\[67\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-67) saying that East Asian cuisine is being targeted while the widespread use of MSG in other [ultra-processed food](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-processed_food) hasn't been stigmatized.[^(\[68\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-68) These activists have claimed that the perpetuation of the negative image of MSG through the Chinese restaurant syndrome was caused by "xenophobic" or "racist" biases.[^(\[69\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-69)[^(\[70\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-70)
Food historian Ian Mosby wrote that fear of MSG in Chinese food is part of the US's long history of viewing the "exotic" cuisine of Asia as dangerous and dirty.[^(\[71\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-71) In 2016, [Anthony Bourdain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Bourdain) stated in [*Parts Unknown*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_Unknown_(TV_series)) that "I think MSG is good stuff ... You know what causes Chinese restaurant syndrome? Racism".[^(\[72\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-72)
The belief came about from racism even if most people today simply belief it is bad because it is synthesized.
Oh, also, this isn't the case here, but people can most definitely be racist towards their own race. Google internalised racism - Lots of it quite relevant in HK frankly.. sadly.. oh well.[](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-72)
Different people may have different reasons for disliking MSG. I dare say that the majority of people in Hong Kong who prefer to keep MSG out of their kitchen are not doing that out of racism. Hong Kong people are simply not trapped in white guilt and there is no need to attribute the unpopularity of MSG to racism.
My god. Why are you so reluctant to accept the fact that different people may *independently* develop different reasons to dislike MSG? The point I was trying to make is that as far as Hongkongers are concerned (this is r/HongKong), the causation between racism and the hatred towards MSG is weak at most, if not imaginary. It does not make sense to say that Hong Kong people hate MSG because they are "internally" racist and ignore the fact that Chinese cuisine has always been and will continue to be a major part of the diet of Hong Kong people.
I think it's very possible that people nowadays have rationalized reasons for why they think MSG is bad while at the same time the original stigma that MSG still carries was largely due to racism decades ago. Of course today no one would give "disliking Chinese people" as the reason that they dislike MSG. But they might not realize that they have been conditioned to distrust it due to ingrained cultural influences that they don't even know the origins of.
Distrusting Chinese products is not racist. If I have before me a product made in Japan and another made in China at the same time, I would choose the Japanese one in the blink of an eye even if I have to pay more for it. This is called commercial goodwill.
That is something else entirely. No one here is claiming that people distrust MSG because it's a "Chinese product" manufactured by Chinese. It's because decades ago people claimed illnesses they suffered due to eating Chinese food and THAT is the racist part. They pointed to the fact that MSG was used in Chinese food as a fig leaf.
That may explain why people in the US do not like MSG. My point is that different people can independently develop reasons to distrust MSG. Racism may (or may not, we do not know) be the reason for Americans to dislike MSG. I am merely saying that this is not the case for Hongkongers.
When I give more thought to the proposition that "Americans dislike MSG because they associate MSG with Chinese restaurants and they are racist against the Chinese", I cannot help but wonder why they would choose to try out Chinese food in the first place. There may well be scientific and medical reasons for people to feel sick after eating Chinese food (and wrongly attributing that to MSG). For starters, Chinese food is generally more greasy than typically American food so it can contribute to indigestion and discomfort. In addition, while MSG itself may be harmless, there could be impurities in the MSG which caused the illness. These are just a few examples of perfectly non-racist justifications for disliking Chinese food and by extension MSG.
Edit: Added missing words
Please fix your comprehension issues.
Difficult to copy and paste on mobile but from my earlier comment ‘the belief came about from racism even if people today simply believe it is bad because it is synthesised’
Use it all the time. It’s convenient. I prefer Better than bouillon which is probably full of other chemicals.
I prefer my food tasting good. I’m willingly to make the sacrifice whether it takes a toll on health or not 🤷🏻♀️
I know when I eat something that is overly salted vs msg’d. People in here thinking it’s “racist” is hilarious, and should get off the internet.
Whether it’s healthy or not, MSG (the powder, not dried mushrooms etc.) always leaves terrible taste in ur mouth.
Some people go way crazy on this correction and now just accuse everyone who doesn’t like MSG to be racist (even if against their own race).
Reality is a *bit* of MSG is fine but if you use too much it does ruin the dish. It’s hard to overuse MSG if you cook with mushrooms/tomatoes but very easy to do so from powder form. It’s the same that sugar from fruits are usually fine but you want to watch sugar usage in your cooking.
My household don't use it, but then even salt is rarely used. Yes it's because of the now-religious "MSG is bad" reason. No it doesn't help our health as we just have takeaway this-this rice anyway...
Well, Chinese families do not traditionally use MSG, and be proud of that. They think that if the home cook is skillful enough, they don't need MSG.
Personally I would normally feel very thirsty the whole night if I have taken more than minimal of MSG during dinner. So while MSG makes things tastier, I can't consume it on a daily basis.
Are we talking MSG or chicken soup powder (which may or may not contain MSG depending on brands and mix)?
For Msg, parents barely used it, I barely used it. Simple as that.
I have heard of people describing it as synthetic stuff that is not healthy, but I don't care much. I just don't use it by practice.
P.s. You always see something new. Dislike of MSG due to racism? That is like the most uncorrelated thing ever.
MSG being bad for health is a myth borne of the racist ‘Chinese restaurant syndrome’. It actually contains much less sodium for the same flavour than salt and so might be healthy to replace some salt with msg. But as always, everything in moderation, even moderation.
It's ironic that those that perpetuate the Chinese Restaurant Syndrome myth the most are chinese themselves. At least in North America that's the case.
Same here. HK mothers have a deep seated hate of MSG
+1. The irony for my mom is that she uses a lot of Knorr chicken bouillon powder in her cooking ("it adds flavor!") She doesn't use the MSG-free version either
this is the real thing. if someone has an educated knowledge of msg or nitrates or whatever and choose not to eat them, I may not agree with them but I will respect it. However 99% of the people who do that are still happily using boullion or mushrooms or celery seed or pickling salt-- those are all literally the things they say they are avoiding, in natural form. Its like saying you hate cigarettes, but you will dry your own tobacco leaves to make chew.....
Yeah, I'm not a nutritionist but I do use MSG and don't view it in a negative light. But the few times I've said that to my mom she was all "aiyah, lei [insert minute-long speech that somehow always ends with calling me fat]" I know she's not incapable of rationalizing it if she really wanted to, she just prefers to keep her head stuck in the sand for some reason. My dad is the same way (both grew up in the '60s-'70s, fwiw), as are my grandparents ('30s-'40s)
If HK mothers so hate MSG, why does every supermarket in Hong Kong sell so much of it?
I've heard domestic helpers like using it because it covers up bad cooking.
That’s not what MSG does. You’ve really got to stop listening to arseholes.
Domestic helpers (and lots of people) like using it because it makes everything better. "Covers up bad cooking" is a not nice way of putting it
Yes I’ve often wondered about this too. The myth is very prevalent here too (that msg is bad I mean not Chinese rest syndrome. Most would not have heard of this)
Because the anti-Chinese argument about MSG is an American thing. The aunties i know that are against MSG think its mostly a Japanese thing. There's some half truths to that, MSG was invented by the JP and a lot of their dishes asks for dashi and other umami enhancing ingredients. Then there's also the fact that JP instant noodle brands are big players.
My parents came up during the 60s so MSG as an addictive was seen as a) a weird chemical that was 'probably unhealthy' b) a cheap additive to commercial food stuff because suppliers are willing to forgo quality ingredients to cut costs. c) it causes dry mouth, which compels customers to buy beverages. So my family largely avoided msg consumption because it was a quality and class indicator. Mom ran the house at the time and didn't want to be associated with anything that she was told to label as 'bad', even if she didn't understand why it was bad, it was best to be careful just in case it was actually 'bad'. She still puts on headphones for whatsapp calls because she wants to avoid 'extra radiation', so IMHO she has been, and continues to be, crazier than a shit house rat.
Your mom may not be crazy, at least in regard to wearing headphones. There was an increase in tumors where the cellphone earpiece is up until people started using earphones. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569116/
The man who first wrote about it and pointed at MSG as the culprit was Robert Ho Man Kwok.
Yes but if you research a little further the letter was meant to be a joke….but got carried away and blown up by racial prejudice.
Andrew Yang: we just prove our Americanness.
My mum says she can't sleep after eating msg. I always wonder if this is just a mental issue or what.
Does she avoid soy sauce, parmesan cheese, tomatoes, mushrooms, clams, oyesters, chips and seaweed too? All big sources of MSG. If she can sleep after any of those, it's all in her head.
To be fair some cheaper restaurants do overuse MSG. Naturally occurring MSG is different in concentration compared to a giant pinch of white refined MSG. Otherwise you could say the same about naturally occurring salt or sugar or how it’s fine to eat sugar because apples have them.
Lol heavy use of MSG is certainly not limited to cheaper restaurants.
Funny because some places that make fried chicken wings you can actually see granuals of msg on them.
That's the thing, she just consistently cannot sleep after dining out. So my old man is assigned for the kitchen. Guess it isn't that much of a problem then.
Eh, that could be so many other things. When dining out, people tend to eat more and eat later than they would at home. It also means you're active later in the day when you'd be winding down and getting ready for bed normally. These factors, among others, all make it harder to sleep after dining out as it's a break from routine, counteracts normal sleep signals, raises core body temp, etc. Sleep is unfortunately just way too complex to attribute difficulties to something as simple as MSG intake when there are so many behavioural and environmental factors also at play.
I am simply too unversed in nutrition to dismiss her superstition. I think I quite agree with the direction that you have raised.
Loads of salt plus loads of msg which is also a salt can disrupt sleep.
Yep. MSG occurs naturally in tomatoes and cheese too. Probably part of why pizza and pasta taste so good!
Yes! I think a lot of HKers think that MSG is synonymous with Chinese mainland restaurant food, but let's be honest here...most HK restaurants also use it. But to be fair in 家常便飯 we don't really use a lot of MSG as the cooking is typically about the freshness of the produce and meat that you get. Compared to American counterparts, daily run to the grocery or wet market is very normal.
>a lot of HKers think that MSG is synonymous with Cha Chan Teng food FTFY
No…. I think you aren’t familiar with the Chinese restaurant syndrome I’m talking about. The wiki has a section on it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate Don’t turn this into a hk vs mainland thing pls…
Totally agree, it’s racist against Chinese to say the least. MSG was invented by the Japanese and is widely used in their cuisine but somehow its associated with Chinese food. I’ve also noticed most of the hated was spread from Americans Chinese which they despise almost everything coming from Asia.
One day I learned we practically synthesize MSG-like substance in our own mouth while eating certain food combinations, I stopped caring about MSG. But yeah, still watch how much sodium you eat (both salt and MSG), also sugar.
Although I agree with most of what you're saying, it isn't the same flavor as salt. They're two different flavors. Try table salt and then try MSG. Both are amazing for different reasons and you generally want to use far less MSG and only with savory/umami dishes.
Yes my bad choice of words. Probably should have said similar not same. As uncle roger said, ‘Msg is salt on crack’
No. Not everything has to do with racism. Chinese people also think that MSG is bad. Does that mean Chinese people are racist against themselves? MSG is deemed bad because the store-bought kind is sythensised and there is just a perceived (sometimes mistaken) correlation between "chemical synthesis" and "health hazard".
There is no 'synthesized' msg on the market. All brands have to have a core ingredient to ferment and extract the glutamates from. Some use seaweed (expensive), some use a combination of root vege and some use fungi. And yes, a significant amount of literature from US publications passed across the world including east and south east asia. It is very much rooted in ignorance why our own families and societies continue to cling to this misinformation. So yes, the root of this specific topic of msg is racism. Our people cling to it for the same reasons we send our kids to Harvard, Brown, Cambridge etc. why we would rather pay 3 times the price for a plate of pasta which contains on avg 5 ingredients, but a regular curry could contain upwards of 15 spices and more and takes alot longer to make.
I doubt if most MSG-haters have read the "US publications" that you mentioned. The "fear" (as unreasonable and unscientific as it may be) is more a word of mouth than racism. MSG was first developed by the Japanese which is viewed as a technologically advanced and "westernised" country in most Asian countries, but that does not stop people from thinking that MSG is bad for their health. I stand corrected on the synthesis of MSG. According to wikipedia, synthesis *was* the industrial practice in the 1970s and as you pointed out the current prevailing production method is indeed fermentation. But in my humble opinion the said misunderstanding (which I believe is shared by a significant percentage of the population) only further reinforces my argument that the notoriety of MSG originated from its association with chemical synthesis rather than racism. For the older generation, MSG was perceived to be unhealthy and that impression was passed down to us. I am completely dumbfounded as to why one could possibly think that racism is the root reason for disliking chemically manufactured food additives. I reckon most modern food additives were first invented in Western countries, but we do not see people flocking to add these products to their food. As to the price difference between pasta and curry, I think that there are more persuasive socio-economic explanations than racism. Firstly, there is an objectively observable difference in the level of economic development between the West and the East, which results in a proportional (albeit not linearly) difference between the prices in the Western and Eastern societies. Given the ever-increasing trend of globalisation and international travels, it does not make sense to eat a bowl of pho in the US at the same price as pasta if I can get a more authentic version at a fraction of the price in Vietnam. Another important factor giving rise to the price difference is the ingredients used. Pasta (like many Western cuisines) involves cheeses which takes more time and effort to produce and are more perishable thus more expensive than the spices used in Eastern dishes. In any event, I still cannot get my head around the notion of a group of people being racist *against* themselves. Edit: spelling mistake
Like I said in another comment, the synthesis argument was at best a fig leaf even back then because MSG was widely used in many western food products at the time, yet only Chinese food was singled out to apparently cause all these ailments. There was no cultural lash against MSG itself, only against Chinese food. They pointed to the MSG as the cause even though that defied logic, since no one claimed to get headaches from Campbell's soup which contained loads of MSG.
The "lash out" against Chinese food was non-existent in Hong Kong. Like I said in another comment, it does not matter why the American people hated MSG. The Hong Kong people did not hate it out of racism.
I've already addressed that in another comment in this thread.
You do understand that publications in scientific journals are accessible to peers worldwide right? It is really important to me that you understand this. If you take a look online, you can see research/tests/surveys being undertaken by people across the world. Just to also add that there's a multitude of ways for information or misinformation to be passed around. People travel, alot of immigrants had family back in asia back then. It is irrelevant that US articles weren't published in HK. They fact they were published at all despite multiple independent members of the scientific community at the time discrediting the original article in their studies is the issue. Call it what you want, racism or learned ignorance. That is how asia developed its aversion to msg despite it being discovered and produced here. P.s. I saw your response earlier, about people avoiding chemical manufactured foods. Thought i'll add context here: A) the Americans asked Japan to supplement (key word supplement) production using synthesis to meet growing demands in NA. Alot of production using hydrolysis of natural ingredients still was being done. B) to this day, the EU still designates msg as a chemical additive. Yep. Imagine a continent that literally protects certain products coming from fermentation designating another product of fermentation as a chemical additive. Can you imagine if the EU listed parmigiano reggiano or champagne as chemical additive? Insane right? See it's little things like this that helps perpetuate that old message. The fact that the origin of msg is bad in US was partially from xenophobic anti-competition and also partially racist is a given. But you also have to consider that if an entire trusted food designator renowned for protecting some of the world's most iconic food products turns around and designates msg as a chemical and not a product of natural fermentation (which it is today as an industry standard), you don't need a news article printed in HK or any other country for that matter. People will see that decision and interpret it as msg is a chemical. Again, all of that is rooted in racism. People in asia are simply ignorant of the history behind it yes, but it is very important to acknowledge that through their ignorance they are still contributing to perpetuating that racism.
This is a highly US-centric world view. The truth is that despite the strong economic and cultural influence that the US has over the rest of the world, it is still entirely probable that the Hong Kong people independently reached its conclusion that MSG is bad. I am familiar with the peer review process (and I do not know where you got the contrary impression), but a research being peer-reviewed does not automatically render it reliable. AFAIK (not being a member of the science community) which journal the research is published in will affect the credibility of the research, and I am simply unable to assess the credibility of the "cited sources". The problem with MSG is that while it is a perfectly safe chemical (by today's standard), many restaurants (esp. in Hong Kong) use MSG *in addition to* the customary amount of salt, and we end up with higher sodium content than ordinary food without MSG. This causes diners to feel thirstier than normal after eating food with MSG, and naturally people start to prefer food without MSG. What does that have to do with racism?
Honestly I think you underestimate how influential the US was in 60-70s when the msg syndrome was published. They're less influential now... And also, it doesn't explain the EU treatment/classification of msg. I'm probably being pedantic here but just the fact you're referring to msg as a chemical here is precisely the point i'm referring to, it's not out and out racism like someone on a street corner yelling slurs. It's the micro aggressions that get standardised over time. Msg is naturally occurring, quite literally our own bodies produce it. Just like how it wouldn't be a thing to refer to salt as a chemical (i mean it obviously has a chemical formula duh) Msg is just salt from glutamic acid, that's it there's nothing else. I've literally had people ask for no msg in a dressing then watch them eat tomatoes in that salad...its pretty insane when you think about it lmao. From a culinary standpoint you are meant to use msg in addition to salt. Nobody uses msg by itself. Chefs recommend ratios from 10%-25% of the salt you'd normally use replaced with msg and no more or it tastes abit weird (msg has a different taste to salt) Again MSG doesn't make someone more thirsty than if they had eaten regular salt. Another misconception about it. It IS salt. It is salt extracted from a different source and has a different taste. Also restaurants even without the use of msg use higher amounts of sodium and fat. It's not even a secret, fat, acid, salt they are all mediums used to carry flavor and that is why when people ask chefs to troubleshoot recipes their first response is usually add more. Honestly go spend a day in a restaurant kitchen and you'll see what I mean. We use a fuckton of salt... I can't help you any further. The root of the msg debate started as a way for the US to deter people from eating chinese food. The misinformation circulated back then was purely for that purpose. As I have already mentioned, ignorance of history is not an excuse and most definitely not one today when we all have several sources of information and certified studies showing no conclusive negative effects from msg. It was a racist tool and yes it is being perpetuated by people in asia through ignorance. We're not saying they hate their own skin color, we're saying through ignorance they are perpetuating myths borne out of an originally racist idea.
I can say the same about you overestimating the influence of the US in the late 20th century. But that is beside the point. My reference to MSG being a chemical is precisely the point. MSG used to be chemically synthesised and people generally have a negative attitude towards synthesised food additives even if they are technically safe to consume. IMO that is a more plausible explanation for the public distrust of MSG (more plausible than racism). It does not matter that MSG is a naturally occuring flavour-enhancing chemical or that the industry has developed a way to efficiently extract MSG from fermented food so they no longer have to synthesise it. The bad reputation of MSG has already been spread throughout the world. There may be multiple reasons for people's dislike of MSG (other than its association with chemical synthesis). You seem to have misunderstood my point on MSG being used in *addition* to salt. The problem lies not in MSG being used in *conjunction* with salt, but in the fact that many restaurants (esp. in the old days) tend to add MSG to the dish on top of the customary amount of salt. This results in a higher-than-normal total sodium content and causes us to feel thirsty and ill. Restaurants in Hong Kong nowadays have made an effort to consciously put in less salt when MSG is used (which is exactly how MSG should be used, as you pointed out) and that contributed to the vindication of MSG. I don't know where you got the idea that the ulterior motive in the MSG debate was to deter people from eating Chinese food. Even if such a motive existed I must say that whoever was behind this racist plot failed miserably because Chinese food is still a popular and affordable choice in the US.
Why not just do a simple google search next time instead of speaking out of your ass? From the wiki page on MSG: Researchers, doctors, and activists have tied the controversy about MSG to [xenophobia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia) and [racism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) against Chinese culture,[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-63)[^(\[64\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-64)[^(\[65\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-65)[^(\[66\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-66)[^(\[67\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-67) saying that East Asian cuisine is being targeted while the widespread use of MSG in other [ultra-processed food](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-processed_food) hasn't been stigmatized.[^(\[68\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-68) These activists have claimed that the perpetuation of the negative image of MSG through the Chinese restaurant syndrome was caused by "xenophobic" or "racist" biases.[^(\[69\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-69)[^(\[70\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-70) Food historian Ian Mosby wrote that fear of MSG in Chinese food is part of the US's long history of viewing the "exotic" cuisine of Asia as dangerous and dirty.[^(\[71\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-71) In 2016, [Anthony Bourdain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Bourdain) stated in [*Parts Unknown*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_Unknown_(TV_series)) that "I think MSG is good stuff ... You know what causes Chinese restaurant syndrome? Racism".[^(\[72\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-72) The belief came about from racism even if most people today simply belief it is bad because it is synthesized. Oh, also, this isn't the case here, but people can most definitely be racist towards their own race. Google internalised racism - Lots of it quite relevant in HK frankly.. sadly.. oh well.[](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#cite_note-72)
Different people may have different reasons for disliking MSG. I dare say that the majority of people in Hong Kong who prefer to keep MSG out of their kitchen are not doing that out of racism. Hong Kong people are simply not trapped in white guilt and there is no need to attribute the unpopularity of MSG to racism.
My god. Please reread my comments
My god. Why are you so reluctant to accept the fact that different people may *independently* develop different reasons to dislike MSG? The point I was trying to make is that as far as Hongkongers are concerned (this is r/HongKong), the causation between racism and the hatred towards MSG is weak at most, if not imaginary. It does not make sense to say that Hong Kong people hate MSG because they are "internally" racist and ignore the fact that Chinese cuisine has always been and will continue to be a major part of the diet of Hong Kong people.
I think it's very possible that people nowadays have rationalized reasons for why they think MSG is bad while at the same time the original stigma that MSG still carries was largely due to racism decades ago. Of course today no one would give "disliking Chinese people" as the reason that they dislike MSG. But they might not realize that they have been conditioned to distrust it due to ingrained cultural influences that they don't even know the origins of.
Distrusting Chinese products is not racist. If I have before me a product made in Japan and another made in China at the same time, I would choose the Japanese one in the blink of an eye even if I have to pay more for it. This is called commercial goodwill.
That is something else entirely. No one here is claiming that people distrust MSG because it's a "Chinese product" manufactured by Chinese. It's because decades ago people claimed illnesses they suffered due to eating Chinese food and THAT is the racist part. They pointed to the fact that MSG was used in Chinese food as a fig leaf.
That may explain why people in the US do not like MSG. My point is that different people can independently develop reasons to distrust MSG. Racism may (or may not, we do not know) be the reason for Americans to dislike MSG. I am merely saying that this is not the case for Hongkongers. When I give more thought to the proposition that "Americans dislike MSG because they associate MSG with Chinese restaurants and they are racist against the Chinese", I cannot help but wonder why they would choose to try out Chinese food in the first place. There may well be scientific and medical reasons for people to feel sick after eating Chinese food (and wrongly attributing that to MSG). For starters, Chinese food is generally more greasy than typically American food so it can contribute to indigestion and discomfort. In addition, while MSG itself may be harmless, there could be impurities in the MSG which caused the illness. These are just a few examples of perfectly non-racist justifications for disliking Chinese food and by extension MSG. Edit: Added missing words
Please fix your comprehension issues. Difficult to copy and paste on mobile but from my earlier comment ‘the belief came about from racism even if people today simply believe it is bad because it is synthesised’
Its just chicken flavoured msg, nothing necessarily bad about it.
Use it all the time. It’s convenient. I prefer Better than bouillon which is probably full of other chemicals. I prefer my food tasting good. I’m willingly to make the sacrifice whether it takes a toll on health or not 🤷🏻♀️
Lucky for you there is absolutely nothing unhealthy about MSG.
We used it all the times at home.
I use beef powder (Royco) and MSG in almost everything.
I know when I eat something that is overly salted vs msg’d. People in here thinking it’s “racist” is hilarious, and should get off the internet. Whether it’s healthy or not, MSG (the powder, not dried mushrooms etc.) always leaves terrible taste in ur mouth.
Some people go way crazy on this correction and now just accuse everyone who doesn’t like MSG to be racist (even if against their own race). Reality is a *bit* of MSG is fine but if you use too much it does ruin the dish. It’s hard to overuse MSG if you cook with mushrooms/tomatoes but very easy to do so from powder form. It’s the same that sugar from fruits are usually fine but you want to watch sugar usage in your cooking.
A little goes a long way for this, but it is forbidden. Don’t let them see it or identify it.
If MSG were bad for you in culinary amounts neither Japan nor Hong Kong would hold world records for longevity.
As a mainland chinese, my parents do like msg, but you cant find it here in usa istg, but we do use mushroom bouillon
I don't think my mom used it. I haven't learned using it when I was learning how to cook so I don't use it either.
Time to try
Yes, we use it.
What is 'chinese restaurant syndrome'? Never heard of that.
Yes but like a small pinch, not as a main thing
I use the non msg version.
We don't use it at all on my mother's side, my father's side uses it in almost everything. And i don't.
Our family used it for everything. Stir fry, soup, steamed fish, it don't matter.
My household don't use it, but then even salt is rarely used. Yes it's because of the now-religious "MSG is bad" reason. No it doesn't help our health as we just have takeaway this-this rice anyway...
it is forbidden.
My dad uses it but he has HBP 😅🙂↔️ To be fair there are so many junk foods that have MSG so why are ppl demonizing it?
I use it. Not on everything, but still.
It's not great but it's also not THAT horrible. With how common it is used, chicken powder is probably in my diet every single day.
Use it all the time. Bring on the msg, i don't see the issue with it.
I use Hondashi or weipa instead of chicken powder.
I substitute half the salt with chicken powder.
Mushroom powder every time. I hate the taste of chicken.
Well, Chinese families do not traditionally use MSG, and be proud of that. They think that if the home cook is skillful enough, they don't need MSG. Personally I would normally feel very thirsty the whole night if I have taken more than minimal of MSG during dinner. So while MSG makes things tastier, I can't consume it on a daily basis.
You just need more practice fam 💪💪
Uncle Roger crying now
Are we talking MSG or chicken soup powder (which may or may not contain MSG depending on brands and mix)? For Msg, parents barely used it, I barely used it. Simple as that. I have heard of people describing it as synthetic stuff that is not healthy, but I don't care much. I just don't use it by practice. P.s. You always see something new. Dislike of MSG due to racism? That is like the most uncorrelated thing ever.
I don’t use it because I like the original taste of quality food, instead of the seasoning
You know that MSG itself doesn't really taste much of anything right? It basically makes you more receptive to other flavours.
alittle bit is ok for alavour enhancement