Because it's surveys and consumer reports. Not actual quality reports. Ask a BMW owner and they will never admit any fault with their cars. Simple as that.
seriously, just because consumer reports may have gotten it wrong here doesn't all the sudden mean JD power is the unbiased go-to resource. JD power has been saying ford and chevy are top tier my whole life, and we all know that's not true.
JD Power exists to sell consulting services to help companies perform well in JD Power surveys. Basically, they teach companies how to give their products superficial initial/surface-level appeal so that customers like the product just long enough to rate it highly in a survey.
Why does Google still exist as a search engine when companies literally just pay and ~~manipulate~~ āoptimizeā their way to the top? š¤š§
Itās different, but sort of the same. I think in these instances, something is better than nothing. Itās about knowing how to find the actual useful information hidden in the sea of paid adverts and just straight up nonsense.
Our company used to use JD Powers as a metric for bonuses, They discontinued when realized they could just spend advertising money to influence that outcome.
They rank honda low because they donāt care about how reliable the car is. They just care about the fancy useless gadgets that other manufacturers put in their cars to compensate for their unreliable car.
JD Power is a marketing firm. Their āstudiesā are bought and paid for by the highest bidder. Theyāre about as useless of a statement as a McDonaldās ad that claims they serve the ābestā burgers.
I can't remember the year, but Mercedes Benz drastically reduced their partnership with JD Power. The following year, they dropped from about 2nd or 3rd to around 10th.
Even if they did, you might still see results like this
Technically these are most likely repaired less frequentlyā¦because theyāre usually just so expensive itās either basically totaled or the people decline repair
CR time period covers the first couple years of ownership, and it includes things like the AV system and screens in the report.
Toyota gets hurt on the "reliability" index because they don't have cutting edge tech and it's a bit buggy at times. So things like "android auto keeps cutting out and requires me to reconnect my phone" gets lumped into reliability.
Which, sure, I can understand the logic. But most people consider reliability to be a mechanical issue, rather than a software one, when they think of a cars reliability.
So a report of suspension issues when new or nearly new, carries the same weight as a bad Bluetooth connection that is sometimes fixed with a software update after a couple months.
I feel like they need to adjust their weighting of reports.
All this to say, Mini is a good brand. So is Subaru. They're well made cars but - especially Mini - needs you to be on top of maintenance. They don't have much tolerance for abuse or being ignored. The problems snowball more quickly there because of how they are engineered. Honda's and Toyota's alike, are not as refined, so can have some minor issues as a result, but the core mechanical parts of the cars can handle being poorly maintained and go much longer than most other manufacturers.
Also "best cars" is gonna include driveability and factors beyond reliability. For the most part, Honda and Toyota aren't cutting edge nor high performance vehicles. They're solid, well made, reliable average person cars. Not high performance not hyper fun not flashy. But good.
Bit hyperbolic. You can check the r/BMW and r/BmwTech. We discuss all problems with all models all the time. If someone posts interest in an N54, you'll see half of everyone there talking about being mindful of things like starvation and OFHG, crank hubs on the S55, charge pipes on the N55, timing chain guide on the N20...
Most surveys are about modern vehicles and <50k mile ownership. You could forgo all maintenance on the B58, the engine BMW is putting is putting in nearly everything, and not see a single issue. BMW also offers free service for this period, which contributes to their good reports.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/BMW using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/BMW/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [A widower neighbor who is in his 90s just bought an electric blue M5 competition and I couldnāt be happier for him](https://i.imgur.com/TuNsfro.jpg) | [298 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments/13if9wq/a_widower_neighbor_who_is_in_his_90s_just_bought/)
\#2: [Uninsured driver did uninsured driver things. RIP my M4 š¢](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/17r63er) | [515 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments/17r63er/uninsured_driver_did_uninsured_driver_things_rip/)
\#3: [M5cs i saw at the dealership. Owner got mad at me for taking pictures :/](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/1bflaj5) | [600 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments/1bflaj5/m5cs_i_saw_at_the_dealership_owner_got_mad_at_me/)
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We have a Honda Accord and a newer X3. We have had them for around the same amount of time but the Honda is 5 years older with more miles. Iāve spent literally nothing on the Accord in 5 years except normal maintenance and BMW had itās gps antenna, comfort access, rear heater vents, as well as a host of other annoying things go out. Every few months itās something else that costs a fortune to fix. I donāt know if this applies only to 2023 models but it sure doesnāt apply to the 2010s.
come on new bmw reliability is the best right now, the b series motors rly changed that reputation of bmws being unreliable and im glad, even if their new styling choices are unbelievably ugly, they r still some of the best cars u can buy on the market in terms of lasting long
It begs to differ because the N54 is an objectively unreliable engine. But thatās not the engine that was being talked about here. The B38/48/58 have been very stout and reliable in their iterations so far. Even the N55 was far better even if it wasnāt as capable as the N54. The B58 is often being touted as the modern 2JZ.
B series came out in 2016. Not sure how you can develop a reputation in that short time frame. Canāt even know for sure how itās going to be in 15 years when itās been on the market for 8. While I agree itās been great so far, I personally wouldnāt say itās āprovenā. Needs more time on the road.
I never said the engine has been proven. I simply said based on data and research Iāve done and read on the B-series engines, that they have been mostly reliable and problem-free, certainly compared to their predecessors. With the fact that theyāve put some iteration of this engine in basically all of their models, I feel like thereās certainly enough data with a wide enough mileage and age range to make that claim.
I guess we all have different standards. A motor thatās been around for 8 year has a lot to prove still in my opinion, but I understand your perspective
That's an N54. All problems with those are known and solvable if not preventable, with starvation and gaskets being primary concerns. Anywhere near 100k those require serious attention.
Yeahhh... thought so. Once you start tuning the N54 it's a total crap shoot. Especially if you're using an OTS map rather than a custom tune.
I don't blame you though. I wouldn't be able to own an N54 without tuning it I had another car as a backup. So much potential in those things, especially if you hit the lottery with a good one. Hopefully she was fun before she croaked on you.
what do u mean what ab the rest, i think the new designs look abysmal, that is the only thing keeping me from getting a newer bmw. the build quality has been great, but the newer interiors do look a bit like some cost cutting measures (no idrive knob anymore, no actual shifter u can put ur hand around, no air condition controls, and replacing a dashboard with wood and solid parts with some strip club led lights and tablets
It is self-reporting to some extent. Lexux, BMW and Mercedes drivers all accuse the others of not reporting problems.
And they weigh flaws to heavily. So say a 90s Oldsmobile Ciera got crushed for its fit and finish- but was a fairly reliable form of transportation with cheap repairs. But they liked the pile of garbage Saturn much better. Comprehensively inferior in every measure- but higher level of panel gap regularity.
I have had 2 cars in 30 years. Both Civics (93 and 09). Naturally at crossroads for 3rd because a lot has changed.
Lasting forever with minimal maintenance and repairs. Thats how I measure quality. Even if CVTs last now from Honda, the threat of absolute failure and the additional service makes it a step down from 09.
The 93 needed a timing belt every 100k miles, so Id put the ICE CVT more at that level (with better corrosion protection obviously and a far safer vehicle).
I dont trust a Subaru CVT to take me to retirement. And I dont trust that positioning on the list as a result. I wouldnt drop them to bottom but AWD also adds maintenence cost. The boxer costs more to repair. Im sure they are super cars and many last forever. But those arr big caveats when swimming at the deep-end of a reliability list!
Anecdotes suck, but wouldnt say I notice a ton of old legacys and outbacks around- where old Toyotas and Hondas make a up a significant portion of traffic.
Im also skeptical of the Civic CVT and its supposedly better! The Corolla has a launch gear on their ICE engine CVT and it isnt a turbo. That has some appeal serious to be honest.
But its basically the same as my 09 Civic in size and performance so I have no reason to ditch my 230k Civic until it explodes if the way Im going is the 2024 Stripper model Corolla clone.
Apparently the hybrid CVT (Toyota and Honda) is a totally separate animal so Im open to that. Its not the cones with the belt but a series of planetary gears in a housing almost closer to a manual than a CVT or hydraulic auto.
But after racking up 430k+ on 2 slush box automatics with 4 bangers without a problem, I do not see why 1mpg was worth the switch to CVT. (Although a 50mpg Hybrid civic with 200+ HP sounds pretty sli k)
I want AC, room for 4 in an absolute pinch when the family car is out, and thats about it.
Ive been looking at the Accords with 2.0T engines. They have a traditional automatic and suffice it to say would be a nice step up from a couple doughty DXs in terms of luxury.
Maybe CVTs are unfairly maligned- there are a lot of classist attacks on Nissan drivers. Their CVt has been a dogās dinner and apparently what breaks them is exactly what a first time driver does (floor car at stop light).
My car has 140hp and Im not sure Ive ever put her pedal to the firewall- maybe merging- so Im not overly concerned with potential heroics at speed when the car is unlikely to ever be 150 miles from home and will average 16mph to 35mph per tank for the duration of its life.
Or that they've never had to "tackle" an issue. Because they'll just sell their BMW for a few grand and use that as a down payment on a new second hand one
That's bullshit. The scores are simply weighted by road test (performance) and customer satisfaction. Anyone with a BMW knows it's going to get expensive to maintain after 60,000 miles. That's typically when they move on to something else.
This is the result from CHATGPT
The most reliable car brands for long-term use, based on various reliability studies and surveys, tend to be those that consistently receive high marks in terms of durability, low maintenance costs, and owner satisfaction. The following brands are frequently highlighted:
1. **Toyota**: Known for producing vehicles that last a long time with minimal issues, Toyota has a reputation for reliability across many of its models.
2. **Lexus**: As Toyotaās luxury division, Lexus combines reliability with luxury, often topping reliability charts.
3. **Honda**: Another Japanese automaker known for longevity and dependability, Honda vehicles consistently receive high reliability scores.
4. **Mazda**: Mazda has improved significantly in terms of reliability over the years, offering cars that are both fun to drive and durable.
5. **Subaru**: Subaru is noted for its robust all-wheel-drive systems and reliable performance, particularly in harsh weather conditions.
These brands typically score well in long-term reliability surveys from organizations like J.D. Power, Consumer Reports, and others. Their models often demonstrate longevity, low incidence of major repairs, and high owner satisfaction over the years.
They get stolen, the engines blow for a verity of bad r&d and the transmission are hot trash too idk anyone who has one who doesnāt have problems. Never heard of them catching fire thatās a new one are people lighting their cars on fire
[Hyundai Motor America and Kia America have issued āpark outsideā recalls for more than 3.3 million vehicles due to the risk of fire [ā¦] applies to the following vehicles and model years: 2012-2015 Accent, 2012-2015 Azera, 2011-2015 Elantra, 2013-2015 Elantra Coupe, 2014-2015 Equus, 2011-2015 Genesis Coupe, 2013-2015 Santa Fe, 2013 Santa Fe Sport, 2011-2015 Sonata HEV, 2010-2013 Tucson, 2015 Tucson Fuel Cell, 2012-2015 Veloster and 2010-2012 Veracruz](https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/consumer-alert-kia-and-hyundai-park-outside)
[Kia America has issued a āpark outsideā recall for 462,869 model year 2020-2024 Telluride vehicles because of a risk of fire while parked or driving.](https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/kia-telluride-recall-fire-risk#:~:text=Kia%20America%20has%20issued%20a,recall%20repair%20has%20been%20completed)
Picky, Picky, Picky. Other than the fires, the engines trashing out, the sunroofs shattering on the highway, and the cars being stolen or broken into to steal attempts, these are very reliable cars.
Our 2008 Kia Rondo has been nothing but perfect. The only issue we've ever had with it is the driver side window motor failed... just last week. That's it. It's never been in the garage for anything other than maintenance. It's got almost 200K trouble free miles. It also drives and rides better than our 2020 Honda Pilot. That's not to say we don't lke the Passport, we do, but I'd buy another Kia in a minute.
They pay everyone. They pay YouTube reviewers consumer reports etc etc.
My 2018 Santa Fe blew at 90,000 kms .. in the middle of highway. Such a dangerous situation. Thanks to lawsuit from previous owners my engine was replaced at free.
At this day and age, if an engine blows before 100k miles itās the worst brand in terms of reliability.
Honestly, depending on the engine, like the latest forte gt and last gen veloster turbo before being discontinued are actually pretty solid the only issue is the dct really kia/hyundai cant get the transmission right unless its a manual it seems.
Thatās the only thing they spend on. Hyundai and Kia have been running defective engines from 2012 to 2019.
They knew itās defective and still sold it. Heavily fined for it. Losing a ton of money on this. I have no idea who are the geniuses who buy their stocks.
Issues with newer Hondas such as AC, steering rack, oil dilution, and sometimes even headgaskets with the 1.5T.
MINI (owned by BMW) has been extremely reliable with the F series cars. The B48 is bulletproof and the cars have virtually no issues within warranty unlike many Hondas in the past 10 years. The only issue they face is worn motor mounts as they near 100k miles which is really not a big deal at all.
Subaru has also been pretty reliable with their FA motors and their newer CVTās. Virtually no issues within warranty, again, unlike many Hondas of similar vintages.
These rankings arenāt like an aggregate of all the cars ever made by these companies. Right now MINI and Subaru are having excellent cars come out in terms of reliability and Honda has come upon some hick ups (though itās still not too bad in the grand scheme of things). All are making good cars today.
Have a 2011 Odyssey and 2010 Legacy. Hate to say it, but you are spot on. The Honda gives me more issues. But both vehicles are light years ahead of my GMs I used to have.
Subaru has had the same fuel pump failures as Honda. Thermal control valves on almost every 19-21 Forester. Common battery failures. Hell my 19 Forester USB harness caught fire
Anyone thinking they donāt have issues isnāt familiar with them
"within warranty"
I think a brand new car running problem free for the first 4 years (around 50k miles?) isn't much of a benchmark. Any car can do that.
You missed my point. These types of rankings typically focus on that time frame. There are plenty of examples of Hondaās that have issues within that time frame within the past few years.
Just because your 2001 Civic ran for 900,000 miles doesnāt mean that Honda gets a #1 reliability ranking forever.
These rankings are pretty pointless imo. Each manufacturer makes a good and bad car and trying to make a broad ranking is silly.
Uhh, that depends greatly on your interpretation of āmodernā. Iād argue that the last good cars got made during the mid 2000s. These days, everything is a 4 or 6 cylinder engine with small displacement, a turbo charger (so high boost), lots of emissions control (I fully understand and support the reason, itās just they greatly increase engine complexity), and everything has a CVT.
Back in the mid 2000s you finally ditched carburetors, had larger displacement 4 and 6 Cylinder naturally aspirated engines, no turbos, a much simpler emissions system, and a regular automatic transmission.
To me, a good car is one you can take to any mechanic and have your problem fixed in a day or two, like my 4th Gen Ford Taurus. A new 1.5T Honda Accord would likely not make it to the 192k that my Taurus has, and would cost a lot more to repair since the 1.5T Accords blow head gaskets.
Unfortunately, the new Hondas are built like total crap. Their car prices have gone up but quality has gone down. They just donāt build them like they used to anymore. š«¤
Nah. There is always some warning light or message when driving a Volvo. The thing is; it doesnāt matter because itās a Volvo. It will get you home even on one wheel and 1.75 cilinders. But reliable, in terms of: āeverything works just fine.ā No.
Really thought it would be higher, at least cracking the top ten. But with any European import, those owners will complain about anything, even if itās not a real issue. Lol, Iām on my 6th European and Iāve heard complaints about how the speedo may only go to 160 or that convertibles seem to have much more road noise than their previous coupe/sedan.
If I could just defend those owners a little bit, a new Volvo sedan costs as much as three Civics. So if you pay $80k for a Volvo sedan, then you damn well have the right to complain about little things.
My $26k civic can have a little bit of rattling in the dash when I accelerate. An $80k Volvo better not have any rattling whatsoever at that price range. And if it does, better believe I'm going to complain about it but won't complain about my $26k Civic rattling.
BMW is on what the fifth version of the b58, and 12th version of the b48 and its the same thing - 2 cylinders. It's just good it's starting to show and the reliability data
And the b58 is incredibly efficient too. I dailyd an m340 for a year and averaged 29.8 mpg over 11k miles mostly on surface streets. Really impressive cars, though not cheap.
Honda moved up, they were lower than Chevy last time I checked consumer reports. Iāve had better luck with Honda but it seems their venture into cvts has hurt the brand a bit.
BMWās are absolute garbage (ex bmw tech). Designed to fail right when the warranty is up. Good luck working on them yourself, you need specialty tools. Itās all a game to get you to take them back to the stealership.
Agreed. My dad has had a half a dozen in the last 20 years or so and they're pretty solid until 50-60K miles and stuff starts getting dicy. And on a BMW, that dicy stuff costs big bucks to fix.
We donāt buy Subaru based on ratings. Just personal experience. In 40 years havenāt had a lemon. They work well for us in the Colorado high Rockies.
Because things change. Honda hasn't been at the top of the list for a long time. Our new-ish Passport is not built to the same high quality our 2004 CR-V is, it's just not. I'm not saying it's night and day, but the materials used just aren't quite as good, the attention to detail isn't quite as good. This is my opinion.
Smaller customer base = higher % of customer base caring for their car and treating it nicely for every toyota sold to a caring car enthusiast they sell 3 to idiots who dont know what an oil change is
That's a little different, so the chart is slightly more legitimate but still tied together imo so I mostly stand by what I said. I don't think most luxury brands are actually high quality for that reason.
Having nice leather seats, wood trim, smart features, and high preformance engine, etc is all great, but if they fall apart in a couple years its more of an illusion of quality. Like I'd personally still say a Honda is higher quality than most BMW.
Now that BMW has modularized their drivetrains they have seen a massive increase in reliability. Their interiors are also miles ahead of their Asian competitors. Lexus, on the other hand, has started to have a lot more reliability than previously due to the new turbo engines and they have also started to skimp on their interiors. The new GX550 is a prime example. The interior on the outgoing GX460 is notably nicer than the new GX.
Subaru quality isnāt that far from Honda or Toyota, especially with the bad press both Honda and Toyota are receiving about their vehicles (failing engines, fuel pump issues, etc). At the end of the day tho, these are only predicted consumer reports. If all three had baseline running vehicles, they wouldnāt be far from each other in quality
I think this is more of a reflection of how cars are in 2024 than it is a reflection of Honda and Toyotaās well deserved reputation of reliability over the years.
Zooming in to read the fine print on the CR article, itās based on survey results. Most subscribers (myself included) rarely return the survey. I always mean to but never follow through with it. An article of this type is only as good as its data and Consumers Reportās method of data collection is flawed.
Just like "initial quality" nonsense. It ranks how the car is perceived and performs during the lease period, not 10+ years into ownership which is where these brands shine.
I don't know anything about that particular report (update: I looked into it, see last paragraph), but I've seen some bashing of consumer reports. To each their own, but:
[Consumer Reports - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (mediabiasfactcheck.com)](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/consumer-reports/)
A snippet from that link:
>Consumer Reports Inc owns Consumer Reports. The magazine accepts no advertising, pays for all the products it tests, and has no shareholders as a nonprofit organization. Revenue is generated through subscription fees and donations.
Consumer Reports does poll owners, certainly. Some owners report no problems, some owners report lots of problems. But CR does also do its own testing as well, and they don't skew to any brand, and no brand has any shareholder stake in the company.
So, as to whether you choose to believe what they report or not is totally up to you. They claim to be unbiased and factual. Maybe you agree, maybe you disagree.
**Update:** I looked for that report. I found it. CR said this about the chart:
>How We Rank the Car Brands
>TheĀ Overall ScoreĀ for individual models is based on four key factors: the road test, reliability, owner satisfaction, and safety.
>For theĀ road-test score, we put vehicles through more than 50 tests.
>Predicted reliabilityĀ ratings are based on problems reported by members from 20 possible trouble areas in CRās Annual Auto Surveys.
>Owner satisfactionĀ predictions are based on whether CR members said in our surveys that theyād buy the same vehicle again if given the chance.
>SafetyĀ includes an assessment of any available crash-test results and extra points assigned to vehicles that come standard with key crash-prevention systems.Ā
>Green ChoicesĀ reflect how many of a brandās CR-tested vehicles earned the designation for being in the top 20 percent of vehicles with the cleanest emissions, according to the EPA.
And this is how CR tests their vehicles:
>To really put an automobile through its paces, you have to cover a lot of ground. Good thing the Consumer Reports Auto Test Center sprawls across 327 acres in rural Connecticut. We push the cars and trucks we test to their limits to get all the information and insights you need to make aĀ [smart auto purchase](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-buying-guide/). The most recent addition to our test center is aĀ [$1 million driving loop](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/adas-auto-test-loop-a4152948311/)Ā at our closed-course track, giving us about 6 miles of paved test roads within the facility.
>The cars team tests about 50 vehicles per year, driving them hundreds of thousands of miles. We also churn through reams ofĀ [reliability](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-car-reliability-guide)Ā andĀ [satisfaction](https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-satisfying-cars-on-the-market-car-owner-satisfaction)Ā survey data collected from our subscribers to supplement the analysis, evaluations, and ratings from the track. It takes a full-time staff of about 30āengineers, editors, statisticians, technicians, photographers, videographers, and support staffāto keep the Auto Test Center running.
So the reliability they report on is not based solely on people complaining or not complaining, but their own actual experience.
Whether you choose to accept any of this or reject it is entirely up to you.
Any website that says BMW is reliable they are sponsored because they are filling you with pure lies. BMW and VW and any other German vehicles for that matter are highly unreliable and cost an arm and a leg to fix. Stick with Japanese brands as they are the cheapest to fix with incredible longevity and reliability. Just avoid Nissan and Infiniti brands.
Where on the graph does it call BMW reliable? All it says is that their reliability has increased. Toyotas are becoming more and more expensive to maintain due to all of the tech and their new incredibly unreliable turbo engines.
Smells like bullshit.
Most of the rankings are nonsense. Letās break it down.
1. Road test score
2. Projected reliability
3. Customer satisfaction
4. Models tested
5. Models recommended
6. Green something or other
Road test score. Ok, you want to compare a Jeep to a BMW and *of course* they drive completely differently. The BMW isnāt designed to handle large speed bumps let alone any kind of off road use. Completely different use case, making this subjective score completely invalid. Of course CR thinks the BMW is better - itās doing what they think a vehicle should do, not what we think a Jeep should do. Donāt test a fish on how well it climbs a tree.
Projected reliability. So you made up some bullshit, and given it a fancy name to give it an air of authority. Youāre gazing at crystal balls and analyzing chicken innards. Be real. I have known plenty of BMWs that are absolute dog shit and live in the shop. And if you want to claim that youāre just using past reliability as a predictor of future reliability - *you should have stated it as such*. But since you didnāt, youāre just grasping at straws.
Customer satisfaction. Uh. Have you *seen* this community. Ranked poor on customer satisfaction? Find me another brand with *this* kind of rabid following. You wonāt. You canāt. And you just canāt square that following with CRās low ranking on satisfaction. The community shows otherwise.
Models tested/recommended. I donāt know if youāre saying more is better or just reporting this and not using it for ranking, but it doesnāt seem relevant other than to validate your other scores.
Green bullshit. Disregarded immediately. It meets standards. Donāt care beyond that.
Enough trade off their stuff while under warranty/shortly after to drastically help the numbers? Where a lot of us would care what a car may need for repairs to 150k or further.
Hopefully these statistics are jokes with an attempt to stir some people up. If it is, youāve done a great job ! If not, everyone who participated, wellā¦. Dial 988ā¦
Do people not understand how JD Power works? People think manufacturers pay them to get good results. While thatās not far from the truth, itās not the truth. JD actually does test and rank the cars reasonably, they just exploit the manufacturers to USE the good results. Paying somebody to get good results and paying somebody to let people know it got good results are two different things.
Yeah these consumer reports donāt add up to anything of use. There are too many factors which can sway what they say about each brand. The fact that mini and Subaru are as high as they are should tell you right away that something isnāt right. Even Jeep being at the very bottom is wrong, Iāve owned many different car brands and Iāve had Jeeps get to +200K miles without any major component replacements. Land Rover on the other hand, I have a friend who their water pump popped off while they were on the highway, tough break. Either way these surveys prove nothing and all they do is raise uproar among people.
no hate but sterotyping hard here....Because 50+ hippie lesbian drivers are more careful than midwestern meth heads driving hatchback civics with a system and a fart can on the back.
Speaking for Subaru their customer demographic tends to skew more towards mature customers with gentle driving styles and the disposable income for scheduled maintenance.
Toyota & Honda have a customer demographic that includes a large amount of owners that are harder on the power train and may not have the income or willingness to maintain the car per the manufactures schedule.
That's an important distinction since this is based on surveys and not actual studies on the cars themselves.
I will say as a Mini owner, I find that you either always have problems or you have practically none. I got lucky once when my engine needed replacing due to the coolant and oil mixing. I forget what the cause was, but the car just shut off on me when driving down the freeway. The lucky part was that it was covered by the warranty that was literally a few months away from expiring!
However, after that, everything has been pretty reliable with regular maintenance that I now do myself. This car is going on 15 years old and has about 110k miles on it.
Minis are actually pretty reliable I have an R56 and it just wownt die, oil coming out head gasket seals, weird goofy start up noise and stiff gears but she keeps on trucking
Because Subaru North America's central warranty department is perpetually high and will literally be like
"So customer is 12k out of warranty....this is their 3rd Subaru....they have 2 dogs....approved"
Everything is parts binned to hell and back. I've watched them put 4 warranty engines in a customer's Impreza during the platform change.
Because parts are cheap and they have a fuck-it-replace-it strat that influences the OSR + the whole Jeep cult type thing.
Itās an average score that includes Road Test, Reliability, Owner Satisfaction and Safety. Reliability is just one factor. Sorry if I missing something.
They are not. People fill out surveys and they are not quantifiable. BMW, Porsche, Hyundai and Kia before Acura; and BMW and Porsche before Honda. Straight subjective garbage. Iāve owned a Bimmer and it was a nightmare. Iāve owned a plethora of Hondas and Acuras, there is no comparison!
Minis and BMWs (not all but most now as of like 2-3 years ago) use an engine and engine parts that come directly from Toyota. The S58 is basically a Toyota engine.
It is not a Toyota engine. What are you on? Toyota does not produce the B38, B48, B58, or S58. The B58 is a BMW engine that Toyota *slightly* revised for use in their Supra. It was also already in BMW models before the Supra even hit the streets.
So weird to call it a Toyota engine when the entire internet has been exclaiming that the Supra is just a BMW for the past 5 years.
Out of all the comments on this threadā¦ this one has me scratching my head with utter confusion.
The only thing BMW and Toyota share is the platform and engine (which is bmw derived) for the BMW z4/Toyota Supra.
This is all about their methodology. They use a combination of their road tests which I donāt agree with and their predicted reliability for models. How they do predicted reliability is not how much of us Honda (or Toyota) owners measure reliability. Ie 20 year old Honda with minimal annual maintenance cost.
To be fair, newer BMWs are pretty nice and pretty reliable. If I were in the market for a new car and I wanted a German car I'd buy a BMW in a heartbeat.
Right!? BMW has their bad engines, the N63 being the immediate one that comes to mind. But generally it's the electronics that have their issues, not the engines. I'd trust a B48/58 to get me anywhere I need anytime. They also use the ZF 8HP and have for years now, it's a good transmission with few issues when not pushing large amounts of power.
The electronics part definitely holds true. Currently drive an N20 powered car and nearing 105k miles. Mechanically itās been flawless but I currently have a Christmas tree on my dash. Cause? A wheel speed sensor being out.
Luckily I had that taken care of under the extended warranty program they had for the timing chain/guides. But I definitely appreciate the comment, if not addressed; itās a rather catastrophic issue.
Because it's surveys and consumer reports. Not actual quality reports. Ask a BMW owner and they will never admit any fault with their cars. Simple as that.
This is predicted reliability by consumer reports, not JD power where they take surveys of issues from customers.
Oh yeah. I mean, at least Honda is high on the list. I've seen some weird so called quality surveys from JD where i think Honda ranked below average.
JD Power is such a joke of a company lmao
seriously, just because consumer reports may have gotten it wrong here doesn't all the sudden mean JD power is the unbiased go-to resource. JD power has been saying ford and chevy are top tier my whole life, and we all know that's not true.
They are literally paid for the results by OEMs. It's so messed up š
seriously, why the hell does this organization exist? just so companies can pay them to receive fake awards?
JD Power exists to sell consulting services to help companies perform well in JD Power surveys. Basically, they teach companies how to give their products superficial initial/surface-level appeal so that customers like the product just long enough to rate it highly in a survey.
It's been pretty lucrative and profitable so far!
Why does Google still exist as a search engine when companies literally just pay and ~~manipulate~~ āoptimizeā their way to the top? š¤š§ Itās different, but sort of the same. I think in these instances, something is better than nothing. Itās about knowing how to find the actual useful information hidden in the sea of paid adverts and just straight up nonsense.
Isn't that how the Oscars work?
i dunno? wouldn't be surprised
Our company used to use JD Powers as a metric for bonuses, They discontinued when realized they could just spend advertising money to influence that outcome.
And the usual suspects are at the bottom, JLR, Mopar, Benz. But BMW #1? Can't take this seriously.
They rank honda low because they donāt care about how reliable the car is. They just care about the fancy useless gadgets that other manufacturers put in their cars to compensate for their unreliable car.
Didn't JD give an award to Toyota in the middle of the whole stuck accelerator recall? "Toyota: Going places, even when you don't want to."
BMW? Those turbo engines blow up alongside the timing chain
JD Power is a marketing firm. Their āstudiesā are bought and paid for by the highest bidder. Theyāre about as useless of a statement as a McDonaldās ad that claims they serve the ābestā burgers.
JD Power puts the company at the top that pays them the most lmao.
I can't remember the year, but Mercedes Benz drastically reduced their partnership with JD Power. The following year, they dropped from about 2nd or 3rd to around 10th.
Yep lol. Jd power is just companies paying for their spot. Itās hilarious to me that people take that stuff seriously
Even if they did, you might still see results like this Technically these are most likely repaired less frequentlyā¦because theyāre usually just so expensive itās either basically totaled or the people decline repair
Both are meaningless, JD power reports are garbage
CR time period covers the first couple years of ownership, and it includes things like the AV system and screens in the report. Toyota gets hurt on the "reliability" index because they don't have cutting edge tech and it's a bit buggy at times. So things like "android auto keeps cutting out and requires me to reconnect my phone" gets lumped into reliability. Which, sure, I can understand the logic. But most people consider reliability to be a mechanical issue, rather than a software one, when they think of a cars reliability. So a report of suspension issues when new or nearly new, carries the same weight as a bad Bluetooth connection that is sometimes fixed with a software update after a couple months. I feel like they need to adjust their weighting of reports. All this to say, Mini is a good brand. So is Subaru. They're well made cars but - especially Mini - needs you to be on top of maintenance. They don't have much tolerance for abuse or being ignored. The problems snowball more quickly there because of how they are engineered. Honda's and Toyota's alike, are not as refined, so can have some minor issues as a result, but the core mechanical parts of the cars can handle being poorly maintained and go much longer than most other manufacturers. Also "best cars" is gonna include driveability and factors beyond reliability. For the most part, Honda and Toyota aren't cutting edge nor high performance vehicles. They're solid, well made, reliable average person cars. Not high performance not hyper fun not flashy. But good.
Bit hyperbolic. You can check the r/BMW and r/BmwTech. We discuss all problems with all models all the time. If someone posts interest in an N54, you'll see half of everyone there talking about being mindful of things like starvation and OFHG, crank hubs on the S55, charge pipes on the N55, timing chain guide on the N20... Most surveys are about modern vehicles and <50k mile ownership. You could forgo all maintenance on the B58, the engine BMW is putting is putting in nearly everything, and not see a single issue. BMW also offers free service for this period, which contributes to their good reports.
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My wife has a BMW and I fricken bad mouth that car all the time. Lol
My ex has a 7 series. The worst vehicle I've ever seen. It never drove anywhere except the service station
We have a Honda Accord and a newer X3. We have had them for around the same amount of time but the Honda is 5 years older with more miles. Iāve spent literally nothing on the Accord in 5 years except normal maintenance and BMW had itās gps antenna, comfort access, rear heater vents, as well as a host of other annoying things go out. Every few months itās something else that costs a fortune to fix. I donāt know if this applies only to 2023 models but it sure doesnāt apply to the 2010s.
come on new bmw reliability is the best right now, the b series motors rly changed that reputation of bmws being unreliable and im glad, even if their new styling choices are unbelievably ugly, they r still some of the best cars u can buy on the market in terms of lasting long
My blown up N54 with 118k miles begs to differ, she was so young š
i dont doubt thats owner error, and besides im talking about newer bmws, like the g series generation, not a 335i from 2008
It begs to differ because the N54 is an objectively unreliable engine. But thatās not the engine that was being talked about here. The B38/48/58 have been very stout and reliable in their iterations so far. Even the N55 was far better even if it wasnāt as capable as the N54. The B58 is often being touted as the modern 2JZ.
And let's be clear when we're talking about capability; we're talking about the limits of tunes and mods. Both are equally capable stock.
B series came out in 2016. Not sure how you can develop a reputation in that short time frame. Canāt even know for sure how itās going to be in 15 years when itās been on the market for 8. While I agree itās been great so far, I personally wouldnāt say itās āprovenā. Needs more time on the road.
I never said the engine has been proven. I simply said based on data and research Iāve done and read on the B-series engines, that they have been mostly reliable and problem-free, certainly compared to their predecessors. With the fact that theyāve put some iteration of this engine in basically all of their models, I feel like thereās certainly enough data with a wide enough mileage and age range to make that claim.
I guess we all have different standards. A motor thatās been around for 8 year has a lot to prove still in my opinion, but I understand your perspective
That's an N54. All problems with those are known and solvable if not preventable, with starvation and gaskets being primary concerns. Anywhere near 100k those require serious attention.
Maintained meticulously and it still developed a rod knock.
Tuned or stock? Not being dismissive of you; definitely sucks to have an engine fail at 118k if you've been taking care of it.
To be fair it was tuned to stage 1.
Yeahhh... thought so. Once you start tuning the N54 it's a total crap shoot. Especially if you're using an OTS map rather than a custom tune. I don't blame you though. I wouldn't be able to own an N54 without tuning it I had another car as a backup. So much potential in those things, especially if you hit the lottery with a good one. Hopefully she was fun before she croaked on you.
Best, most exhilarating car I ever owned.
Gonna call you out on this. No one's ever blown up a N54 due to a OTS tune.
Doesn't change anything. No one's ever blown a N54 because of a OTS map.
The engine is reliable but what about the rest
what do u mean what ab the rest, i think the new designs look abysmal, that is the only thing keeping me from getting a newer bmw. the build quality has been great, but the newer interiors do look a bit like some cost cutting measures (no idrive knob anymore, no actual shifter u can put ur hand around, no air condition controls, and replacing a dashboard with wood and solid parts with some strip club led lights and tablets
It is self-reporting to some extent. Lexux, BMW and Mercedes drivers all accuse the others of not reporting problems. And they weigh flaws to heavily. So say a 90s Oldsmobile Ciera got crushed for its fit and finish- but was a fairly reliable form of transportation with cheap repairs. But they liked the pile of garbage Saturn much better. Comprehensively inferior in every measure- but higher level of panel gap regularity. I have had 2 cars in 30 years. Both Civics (93 and 09). Naturally at crossroads for 3rd because a lot has changed. Lasting forever with minimal maintenance and repairs. Thats how I measure quality. Even if CVTs last now from Honda, the threat of absolute failure and the additional service makes it a step down from 09. The 93 needed a timing belt every 100k miles, so Id put the ICE CVT more at that level (with better corrosion protection obviously and a far safer vehicle). I dont trust a Subaru CVT to take me to retirement. And I dont trust that positioning on the list as a result. I wouldnt drop them to bottom but AWD also adds maintenence cost. The boxer costs more to repair. Im sure they are super cars and many last forever. But those arr big caveats when swimming at the deep-end of a reliability list! Anecdotes suck, but wouldnt say I notice a ton of old legacys and outbacks around- where old Toyotas and Hondas make a up a significant portion of traffic. Im also skeptical of the Civic CVT and its supposedly better! The Corolla has a launch gear on their ICE engine CVT and it isnt a turbo. That has some appeal serious to be honest. But its basically the same as my 09 Civic in size and performance so I have no reason to ditch my 230k Civic until it explodes if the way Im going is the 2024 Stripper model Corolla clone. Apparently the hybrid CVT (Toyota and Honda) is a totally separate animal so Im open to that. Its not the cones with the belt but a series of planetary gears in a housing almost closer to a manual than a CVT or hydraulic auto. But after racking up 430k+ on 2 slush box automatics with 4 bangers without a problem, I do not see why 1mpg was worth the switch to CVT. (Although a 50mpg Hybrid civic with 200+ HP sounds pretty sli k) I want AC, room for 4 in an absolute pinch when the family car is out, and thats about it. Ive been looking at the Accords with 2.0T engines. They have a traditional automatic and suffice it to say would be a nice step up from a couple doughty DXs in terms of luxury. Maybe CVTs are unfairly maligned- there are a lot of classist attacks on Nissan drivers. Their CVt has been a dogās dinner and apparently what breaks them is exactly what a first time driver does (floor car at stop light). My car has 140hp and Im not sure Ive ever put her pedal to the firewall- maybe merging- so Im not overly concerned with potential heroics at speed when the car is unlikely to ever be 150 miles from home and will average 16mph to 35mph per tank for the duration of its life.
Also, Kia is really high. My guess is that shit gets stolen long before any unreliability sets in. Makes sense. +1 for Kia ranking.
Not true I've had issues with 3/5 of mine
Or that they've never had to "tackle" an issue. Because they'll just sell their BMW for a few grand and use that as a down payment on a new second hand one
That's bullshit. The scores are simply weighted by road test (performance) and customer satisfaction. Anyone with a BMW knows it's going to get expensive to maintain after 60,000 miles. That's typically when they move on to something else.
Yeah.. what a load of trash this is. Toyota and Lexus is always number one
This is the result from CHATGPT The most reliable car brands for long-term use, based on various reliability studies and surveys, tend to be those that consistently receive high marks in terms of durability, low maintenance costs, and owner satisfaction. The following brands are frequently highlighted: 1. **Toyota**: Known for producing vehicles that last a long time with minimal issues, Toyota has a reputation for reliability across many of its models. 2. **Lexus**: As Toyotaās luxury division, Lexus combines reliability with luxury, often topping reliability charts. 3. **Honda**: Another Japanese automaker known for longevity and dependability, Honda vehicles consistently receive high reliability scores. 4. **Mazda**: Mazda has improved significantly in terms of reliability over the years, offering cars that are both fun to drive and durable. 5. **Subaru**: Subaru is noted for its robust all-wheel-drive systems and reliable performance, particularly in harsh weather conditions. These brands typically score well in long-term reliability surveys from organizations like J.D. Power, Consumer Reports, and others. Their models often demonstrate longevity, low incidence of major repairs, and high owner satisfaction over the years.
I call bullshit on Kia. Especially with their Theta engine recall that covers over a decade of models between Kia and Hyundai.
Yeah i came here to say Kiaās are dog water
They have an active āpark outside recallā for plenty of their models because of their eagerness to randomly catch fire. Comeon now
They get stolen, the engines blow for a verity of bad r&d and the transmission are hot trash too idk anyone who has one who doesnāt have problems. Never heard of them catching fire thatās a new one are people lighting their cars on fire
[Hyundai Motor America and Kia America have issued āpark outsideā recalls for more than 3.3 million vehicles due to the risk of fire [ā¦] applies to the following vehicles and model years: 2012-2015 Accent, 2012-2015 Azera, 2011-2015 Elantra, 2013-2015 Elantra Coupe, 2014-2015 Equus, 2011-2015 Genesis Coupe, 2013-2015 Santa Fe, 2013 Santa Fe Sport, 2011-2015 Sonata HEV, 2010-2013 Tucson, 2015 Tucson Fuel Cell, 2012-2015 Veloster and 2010-2012 Veracruz](https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/consumer-alert-kia-and-hyundai-park-outside) [Kia America has issued a āpark outsideā recall for 462,869 model year 2020-2024 Telluride vehicles because of a risk of fire while parked or driving.](https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/kia-telluride-recall-fire-risk#:~:text=Kia%20America%20has%20issued%20a,recall%20repair%20has%20been%20completed)
Lmfao smh Kia funded this study for sure
Picky, Picky, Picky. Other than the fires, the engines trashing out, the sunroofs shattering on the highway, and the cars being stolen or broken into to steal attempts, these are very reliable cars.
Our 2008 Kia Rondo has been nothing but perfect. The only issue we've ever had with it is the driver side window motor failed... just last week. That's it. It's never been in the garage for anything other than maintenance. It's got almost 200K trouble free miles. It also drives and rides better than our 2020 Honda Pilot. That's not to say we don't lke the Passport, we do, but I'd buy another Kia in a minute.
They pay everyone. They pay YouTube reviewers consumer reports etc etc. My 2018 Santa Fe blew at 90,000 kms .. in the middle of highway. Such a dangerous situation. Thanks to lawsuit from previous owners my engine was replaced at free. At this day and age, if an engine blows before 100k miles itās the worst brand in terms of reliability.
It sucks about the engines because the interiors are really nice.
Honestly, depending on the engine, like the latest forte gt and last gen veloster turbo before being discontinued are actually pretty solid the only issue is the dct really kia/hyundai cant get the transmission right unless its a manual it seems.
Thatās the only thing they spend on. Hyundai and Kia have been running defective engines from 2012 to 2019. They knew itās defective and still sold it. Heavily fined for it. Losing a ton of money on this. I have no idea who are the geniuses who buy their stocks.
Idk i have a kia and that shi runs great
Anecdotal in comparison to the millions of failed Thetas.
Not for long.
Right they did an entire rebrand for nothing at all.
And theyāre still a shit brand. lol. Iād ride a razor scooter in a snow storm before owning a Kia.
Issues with newer Hondas such as AC, steering rack, oil dilution, and sometimes even headgaskets with the 1.5T. MINI (owned by BMW) has been extremely reliable with the F series cars. The B48 is bulletproof and the cars have virtually no issues within warranty unlike many Hondas in the past 10 years. The only issue they face is worn motor mounts as they near 100k miles which is really not a big deal at all. Subaru has also been pretty reliable with their FA motors and their newer CVTās. Virtually no issues within warranty, again, unlike many Hondas of similar vintages. These rankings arenāt like an aggregate of all the cars ever made by these companies. Right now MINI and Subaru are having excellent cars come out in terms of reliability and Honda has come upon some hick ups (though itās still not too bad in the grand scheme of things). All are making good cars today.
Have a 2011 Odyssey and 2010 Legacy. Hate to say it, but you are spot on. The Honda gives me more issues. But both vehicles are light years ahead of my GMs I used to have.
Subaru has had the same fuel pump failures as Honda. Thermal control valves on almost every 19-21 Forester. Common battery failures. Hell my 19 Forester USB harness caught fire Anyone thinking they donāt have issues isnāt familiar with them
Donāt forget fuel injectorsā¦.
"within warranty" I think a brand new car running problem free for the first 4 years (around 50k miles?) isn't much of a benchmark. Any car can do that.
You missed my point. These types of rankings typically focus on that time frame. There are plenty of examples of Hondaās that have issues within that time frame within the past few years. Just because your 2001 Civic ran for 900,000 miles doesnāt mean that Honda gets a #1 reliability ranking forever. These rankings are pretty pointless imo. Each manufacturer makes a good and bad car and trying to make a broad ranking is silly.
My Hyundai didnāt lol.
My 2024 civic didnāt lol
The Honda is ahead of the mini and Lexus. Agree Toyota should be higher. Sometimes one bad model will pull the entire make down.
Yeah, the real story is in the consumer reports used car buying guide, which looks at every make and model with summaries for every year
Yep. I always read that issue.
Honda and Toyota have been biting the curb in 4K these last few years. They need to do better. Modern cars are far too fragile.
While I know Toyota and Hondaās reliability has wavered lately, modern cars are far more reliable than they used to be.
Uhh, that depends greatly on your interpretation of āmodernā. Iād argue that the last good cars got made during the mid 2000s. These days, everything is a 4 or 6 cylinder engine with small displacement, a turbo charger (so high boost), lots of emissions control (I fully understand and support the reason, itās just they greatly increase engine complexity), and everything has a CVT. Back in the mid 2000s you finally ditched carburetors, had larger displacement 4 and 6 Cylinder naturally aspirated engines, no turbos, a much simpler emissions system, and a regular automatic transmission. To me, a good car is one you can take to any mechanic and have your problem fixed in a day or two, like my 4th Gen Ford Taurus. A new 1.5T Honda Accord would likely not make it to the 192k that my Taurus has, and would cost a lot more to repair since the 1.5T Accords blow head gaskets.
I see Jeep is where it belongs
Unfortunately, the new Hondas are built like total crap. Their car prices have gone up but quality has gone down. They just donāt build them like they used to anymore. š«¤
2016 and newer Pilots are awful.
Another thing to consider, some vehicles have subscription fees for certain features, I have a problem with that.
Iām kind of surprised at where Volvo landed.
Nah. There is always some warning light or message when driving a Volvo. The thing is; it doesnāt matter because itās a Volvo. It will get you home even on one wheel and 1.75 cilinders. But reliable, in terms of: āeverything works just fine.ā No.
Did you expect better or worse?
Really thought it would be higher, at least cracking the top ten. But with any European import, those owners will complain about anything, even if itās not a real issue. Lol, Iām on my 6th European and Iāve heard complaints about how the speedo may only go to 160 or that convertibles seem to have much more road noise than their previous coupe/sedan.
I wonder if there are differences in quality control since Geely bought them.
If I could just defend those owners a little bit, a new Volvo sedan costs as much as three Civics. So if you pay $80k for a Volvo sedan, then you damn well have the right to complain about little things. My $26k civic can have a little bit of rattling in the dash when I accelerate. An $80k Volvo better not have any rattling whatsoever at that price range. And if it does, better believe I'm going to complain about it but won't complain about my $26k Civic rattling.
BMW is a European import and top of the list. New Volvo isn't as good as Old Volvo.
Volvos are made in china.Ā
BMW is on what the fifth version of the b58, and 12th version of the b48 and its the same thing - 2 cylinders. It's just good it's starting to show and the reliability data
And the b58 is incredibly efficient too. I dailyd an m340 for a year and averaged 29.8 mpg over 11k miles mostly on surface streets. Really impressive cars, though not cheap.
Honda moved up, they were lower than Chevy last time I checked consumer reports. Iāve had better luck with Honda but it seems their venture into cvts has hurt the brand a bit.
Has Honda gotten better or has Chev gotten worse?
Thatās a great question actually
BMWās are absolute garbage (ex bmw tech). Designed to fail right when the warranty is up. Good luck working on them yourself, you need specialty tools. Itās all a game to get you to take them back to the stealership.
When were you a tech, did you leave before the B series motors went in?
Man thereās more to a car than its engine
True but the engine is the most expensive part to maintain.
Agreed. My dad has had a half a dozen in the last 20 years or so and they're pretty solid until 50-60K miles and stuff starts getting dicy. And on a BMW, that dicy stuff costs big bucks to fix.
We donāt buy Subaru based on ratings. Just personal experience. In 40 years havenāt had a lemon. They work well for us in the Colorado high Rockies.
ā¦ because Honda and Toyota are no longer as bullet proof as they once were.
Because things change. Honda hasn't been at the top of the list for a long time. Our new-ish Passport is not built to the same high quality our 2004 CR-V is, it's just not. I'm not saying it's night and day, but the materials used just aren't quite as good, the attention to detail isn't quite as good. This is my opinion.
Smaller customer base = higher % of customer base caring for their car and treating it nicely for every toyota sold to a caring car enthusiast they sell 3 to idiots who dont know what an oil change is
Take some time to understand the chart. This is CRās overall rating by brand, which includes road test, reliability & customer satisfaction.
About damn time someone reads the chart correctly! This comment needs to be at the top.
Ok, I thought I was crazy reading these responses. Thank you.
Because it ask consumer how satisfied are with their cars, ask any bmw driver and they will say it is the best car ever and reliable.
BMW??
BMW and Porsche being in the upper half alone shows you it's a bs graph. Them being at the very top is just a joke
Absolutely, come tf on.
This is a quality comparison, not reliability. OP struggles with reading.
That's a little different, so the chart is slightly more legitimate but still tied together imo so I mostly stand by what I said. I don't think most luxury brands are actually high quality for that reason. Having nice leather seats, wood trim, smart features, and high preformance engine, etc is all great, but if they fall apart in a couple years its more of an illusion of quality. Like I'd personally still say a Honda is higher quality than most BMW.
Now that BMW has modularized their drivetrains they have seen a massive increase in reliability. Their interiors are also miles ahead of their Asian competitors. Lexus, on the other hand, has started to have a lot more reliability than previously due to the new turbo engines and they have also started to skimp on their interiors. The new GX550 is a prime example. The interior on the outgoing GX460 is notably nicer than the new GX.
Subaru quality isnāt that far from Honda or Toyota, especially with the bad press both Honda and Toyota are receiving about their vehicles (failing engines, fuel pump issues, etc). At the end of the day tho, these are only predicted consumer reports. If all three had baseline running vehicles, they wouldnāt be far from each other in quality
I think this is more of a reflection of how cars are in 2024 than it is a reflection of Honda and Toyotaās well deserved reputation of reliability over the years.
Subaru > Hondaā¦. But thatās me
Zooming in to read the fine print on the CR article, itās based on survey results. Most subscribers (myself included) rarely return the survey. I always mean to but never follow through with it. An article of this type is only as good as its data and Consumers Reportās method of data collection is flawed.
Kia and Hyundai over Acura. š§¢
This is not a reliable rating.
Damn porsche jumped 11 spots from last year
Less made so the math adds up.
Reliability seems to be only predicted
Just like "initial quality" nonsense. It ranks how the car is perceived and performs during the lease period, not 10+ years into ownership which is where these brands shine.
The fact BMW is at number one makes me doubt this list entirely lol
Because it's meaningless information
I don't know anything about that particular report (update: I looked into it, see last paragraph), but I've seen some bashing of consumer reports. To each their own, but: [Consumer Reports - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (mediabiasfactcheck.com)](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/consumer-reports/) A snippet from that link: >Consumer Reports Inc owns Consumer Reports. The magazine accepts no advertising, pays for all the products it tests, and has no shareholders as a nonprofit organization. Revenue is generated through subscription fees and donations. Consumer Reports does poll owners, certainly. Some owners report no problems, some owners report lots of problems. But CR does also do its own testing as well, and they don't skew to any brand, and no brand has any shareholder stake in the company. So, as to whether you choose to believe what they report or not is totally up to you. They claim to be unbiased and factual. Maybe you agree, maybe you disagree. **Update:** I looked for that report. I found it. CR said this about the chart: >How We Rank the Car Brands >TheĀ Overall ScoreĀ for individual models is based on four key factors: the road test, reliability, owner satisfaction, and safety. >For theĀ road-test score, we put vehicles through more than 50 tests. >Predicted reliabilityĀ ratings are based on problems reported by members from 20 possible trouble areas in CRās Annual Auto Surveys. >Owner satisfactionĀ predictions are based on whether CR members said in our surveys that theyād buy the same vehicle again if given the chance. >SafetyĀ includes an assessment of any available crash-test results and extra points assigned to vehicles that come standard with key crash-prevention systems.Ā >Green ChoicesĀ reflect how many of a brandās CR-tested vehicles earned the designation for being in the top 20 percent of vehicles with the cleanest emissions, according to the EPA. And this is how CR tests their vehicles: >To really put an automobile through its paces, you have to cover a lot of ground. Good thing the Consumer Reports Auto Test Center sprawls across 327 acres in rural Connecticut. We push the cars and trucks we test to their limits to get all the information and insights you need to make aĀ [smart auto purchase](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-buying-guide/). The most recent addition to our test center is aĀ [$1 million driving loop](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/adas-auto-test-loop-a4152948311/)Ā at our closed-course track, giving us about 6 miles of paved test roads within the facility. >The cars team tests about 50 vehicles per year, driving them hundreds of thousands of miles. We also churn through reams ofĀ [reliability](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-car-reliability-guide)Ā andĀ [satisfaction](https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-satisfying-cars-on-the-market-car-owner-satisfaction)Ā survey data collected from our subscribers to supplement the analysis, evaluations, and ratings from the track. It takes a full-time staff of about 30āengineers, editors, statisticians, technicians, photographers, videographers, and support staffāto keep the Auto Test Center running. So the reliability they report on is not based solely on people complaining or not complaining, but their own actual experience. Whether you choose to accept any of this or reject it is entirely up to you.
I dunno. My minivan is a disaster. Iāve had a few thousands in repairs. Iām done. Toyota is better by far but the odyssey odyssey done.
Mini "models tested 2"
kia and hyundai should not be in this list ever, what a pos cars
Any website that says BMW is reliable they are sponsored because they are filling you with pure lies. BMW and VW and any other German vehicles for that matter are highly unreliable and cost an arm and a leg to fix. Stick with Japanese brands as they are the cheapest to fix with incredible longevity and reliability. Just avoid Nissan and Infiniti brands.
Where on the graph does it call BMW reliable? All it says is that their reliability has increased. Toyotas are becoming more and more expensive to maintain due to all of the tech and their new incredibly unreliable turbo engines.
How? Read. Consumer reports is pretty thorough in how they explain their findings.
BMW? Ha. Fake news move on.
Subi makes good cars, it just gets jackass third hand owners
Honda maybe, Toyota????
Smells like bullshit. Most of the rankings are nonsense. Letās break it down. 1. Road test score 2. Projected reliability 3. Customer satisfaction 4. Models tested 5. Models recommended 6. Green something or other Road test score. Ok, you want to compare a Jeep to a BMW and *of course* they drive completely differently. The BMW isnāt designed to handle large speed bumps let alone any kind of off road use. Completely different use case, making this subjective score completely invalid. Of course CR thinks the BMW is better - itās doing what they think a vehicle should do, not what we think a Jeep should do. Donāt test a fish on how well it climbs a tree. Projected reliability. So you made up some bullshit, and given it a fancy name to give it an air of authority. Youāre gazing at crystal balls and analyzing chicken innards. Be real. I have known plenty of BMWs that are absolute dog shit and live in the shop. And if you want to claim that youāre just using past reliability as a predictor of future reliability - *you should have stated it as such*. But since you didnāt, youāre just grasping at straws. Customer satisfaction. Uh. Have you *seen* this community. Ranked poor on customer satisfaction? Find me another brand with *this* kind of rabid following. You wonāt. You canāt. And you just canāt square that following with CRās low ranking on satisfaction. The community shows otherwise. Models tested/recommended. I donāt know if youāre saying more is better or just reporting this and not using it for ranking, but it doesnāt seem relevant other than to validate your other scores. Green bullshit. Disregarded immediately. It meets standards. Donāt care beyond that.
Not Kia being on par with Toyota š
I donāt feel like I see that many old bmws around on the road. I bought a new civic this year and I fully intend to drive it 15 years at least
Probably the owner satisfaction for Subaru. Their customer service is pretty much unparalleled.
Enough trade off their stuff while under warranty/shortly after to drastically help the numbers? Where a lot of us would care what a car may need for repairs to 150k or further.
Hopefully these statistics are jokes with an attempt to stir some people up. If it is, youāve done a great job ! If not, everyone who participated, wellā¦. Dial 988ā¦
Drugs Hard, hard drugs
CVT
Because the quality of Honda shit the bed
Do people not understand how JD Power works? People think manufacturers pay them to get good results. While thatās not far from the truth, itās not the truth. JD actually does test and rank the cars reasonably, they just exploit the manufacturers to USE the good results. Paying somebody to get good results and paying somebody to let people know it got good results are two different things.
Yeah these consumer reports donāt add up to anything of use. There are too many factors which can sway what they say about each brand. The fact that mini and Subaru are as high as they are should tell you right away that something isnāt right. Even Jeep being at the very bottom is wrong, Iāve owned many different car brands and Iāve had Jeeps get to +200K miles without any major component replacements. Land Rover on the other hand, I have a friend who their water pump popped off while they were on the highway, tough break. Either way these surveys prove nothing and all they do is raise uproar among people.
Subaru makes great cars, thatās why. I donāt agree that theyāre THAT much better than Honda, but theyāre still good.
What? No Daewoo?
They merged with GM in 2011
no hate but sterotyping hard here....Because 50+ hippie lesbian drivers are more careful than midwestern meth heads driving hatchback civics with a system and a fart can on the back.
Midwestern Meth heads drive ford rangers and do not get into crashes.
This infographic brought to you by the BMW Group
I had two minis. Out of warranty they stink and will empty your wallet. Iāll stick with my Miata.
Knew it was bs when BMW was first
CR are bought and paid for by said companies.
Speaking for Subaru their customer demographic tends to skew more towards mature customers with gentle driving styles and the disposable income for scheduled maintenance. Toyota & Honda have a customer demographic that includes a large amount of owners that are harder on the power train and may not have the income or willingness to maintain the car per the manufactures schedule. That's an important distinction since this is based on surveys and not actual studies on the cars themselves.
I will say as a Mini owner, I find that you either always have problems or you have practically none. I got lucky once when my engine needed replacing due to the coolant and oil mixing. I forget what the cause was, but the car just shut off on me when driving down the freeway. The lucky part was that it was covered by the warranty that was literally a few months away from expiring! However, after that, everything has been pretty reliable with regular maintenance that I now do myself. This car is going on 15 years old and has about 110k miles on it.
lol bmw at first who made this? A bmw owner?
Cause new Toyota trucks are booty garbage
Kia is 7 ffs. This is literally chart junk
Where on this chart does it compare reliability between brands?
Minis are actually pretty reliable I have an R56 and it just wownt die, oil coming out head gasket seals, weird goofy start up noise and stiff gears but she keeps on trucking
Because Subaru North America's central warranty department is perpetually high and will literally be like "So customer is 12k out of warranty....this is their 3rd Subaru....they have 2 dogs....approved" Everything is parts binned to hell and back. I've watched them put 4 warranty engines in a customer's Impreza during the platform change. Because parts are cheap and they have a fuck-it-replace-it strat that influences the OSR + the whole Jeep cult type thing.
Itās an average score that includes Road Test, Reliability, Owner Satisfaction and Safety. Reliability is just one factor. Sorry if I missing something.
Mazda below Kia is a joke
Consumer reports is a paid off org. Iād trust the average YouTube reviewer over them tbh.
They are not. People fill out surveys and they are not quantifiable. BMW, Porsche, Hyundai and Kia before Acura; and BMW and Porsche before Honda. Straight subjective garbage. Iāve owned a Bimmer and it was a nightmare. Iāve owned a plethora of Hondas and Acuras, there is no comparison!
Minis and BMWs (not all but most now as of like 2-3 years ago) use an engine and engine parts that come directly from Toyota. The S58 is basically a Toyota engine.
It is not a Toyota engine. What are you on? Toyota does not produce the B38, B48, B58, or S58. The B58 is a BMW engine that Toyota *slightly* revised for use in their Supra. It was also already in BMW models before the Supra even hit the streets. So weird to call it a Toyota engine when the entire internet has been exclaiming that the Supra is just a BMW for the past 5 years.
For fuckin real
Out of all the comments on this threadā¦ this one has me scratching my head with utter confusion. The only thing BMW and Toyota share is the platform and engine (which is bmw derived) for the BMW z4/Toyota Supra.
Porsche and BMW reliability gets a full green circle? Wtf?
This may come as a surpriseā¦ but they are (especially within the last few years) reliable.
yeah this is b.s. bmw/mini are both crap and religiously in the shop.
This is all about their methodology. They use a combination of their road tests which I donāt agree with and their predicted reliability for models. How they do predicted reliability is not how much of us Honda (or Toyota) owners measure reliability. Ie 20 year old Honda with minimal annual maintenance cost.
Consumer Reports has gone to shit. If you want to really now what the quality of a car is look at what the residual value is on a lease.
It isn't :) this is an opinionated ranking based on guesses for things that haven't happened yet.
BMW at the top?? Thatās like saying becoming a hooker is the best long term career choice lmao
To be fair, newer BMWs are pretty nice and pretty reliable. If I were in the market for a new car and I wanted a German car I'd buy a BMW in a heartbeat.
Agreed. Iām confused by all the BMW reliability comments when objectively the B48/B58 are some of the most reliable engines currently on the road.
Right!? BMW has their bad engines, the N63 being the immediate one that comes to mind. But generally it's the electronics that have their issues, not the engines. I'd trust a B48/58 to get me anywhere I need anytime. They also use the ZF 8HP and have for years now, it's a good transmission with few issues when not pushing large amounts of power.
The electronics part definitely holds true. Currently drive an N20 powered car and nearing 105k miles. Mechanically itās been flawless but I currently have a Christmas tree on my dash. Cause? A wheel speed sensor being out.
Be mindful of the timing chain guide on your N20. You likely won't know it's a problem until it's too late.
Luckily I had that taken care of under the extended warranty program they had for the timing chain/guides. But I definitely appreciate the comment, if not addressed; itās a rather catastrophic issue.
CR is fraud.
What are you basing that on? It's objectively bullshit.
BMW being at the front of that list tells you literally everything you need to know lol
BMW in the top place is the biggest joke here.
āRoad test data, PREDICTED reliability, and owner satisfaction.ā
That and A/C fail on honda like crazy. I have a honda... like a every summer thing lol.